I'm working on something new. This is a picture of it. A creative moment captured just before things get serious... kind of like the long ride to the top of a roller coaster. Not entirely sure what will happen during the heat of it, but it's sure to be memorable and who knows, I might learn something! (BTW, I have discovered the reason you never quit learning is because you start forgetting things you already knew.)




What makes this the mystery amp?  Lack of information. Thought you might enjoy speculating on what it might be. The only hint is that it is not replacing anything in the current amplifier line. I know, it's an obvious hint, but that's all I'm giving up.

-Steve  ;)

Well, I don't know anything about the technology behind Decware's great amps, but this one seems to me some kind of dual mono design, around only 4 tubes per mono side, with two volume pots and a treble control.

It seems also to show toroidal transformers and what may be a push-pull arrangement, with only two output tubes (in PP) and two drivers, per mono side.

It also seems to show (maybe), two gauges per mono side, one for each of the PP output tubes on each mono side.

Or not!

Quote:

Now, that would be cool.

What a brutal tease! It looks like two channels with four tubes per side, two power and two input? And a volume with maybe a bass and treble pot on either side of it? And four gauges? I am thinking a high wattage integrated.

There could be a couple of tube sockets lying behind the gauges...phono signal ? Two gains and a master volume dial ? Big smoothing caps...No transformer. Now if you were to build a 2 unit amp with outboard power supply.......

Looks like you are close to listening tests! May there be many more drops of creative karma to clarify musical reality!

Well, I'm not where near close to a listening test yet, as I'm doing this in my spare moments of which there are few...  so plan on it taking awhile...

Here is another clue.



-Steve

What about a KT88 integrated?

a small 15 watt amp (medium torii), something to fit between the mini and zen torii?

Probably a new Zen Torii, with huge caps instead of the traditional input/output tube voltage regulation stages, incorporating what was learned from the recent Zen Torii Mono design process.

I still think this is a dual mono configuration, sort of a lesser powered dual Torii Monos, in a single chassis.

$3275, 32 WPC.

It's good advertising!
Keep 'em pumped!
(with it's pedigree, it's bound to be interesting!)
Don

Well I don't have the knowledge to say what it might be but I do know one thing for certain…
I want one.

Super tori 60 wpc

Like Damien,

I want one too.

Actually I want ONE PAIR.

Tube cell phone.

The process begins....

Got a few more moments with the mystery amp today...  this is an interesting point in the build of this (or any) amplifier.  For those of you who aren't amp builders, you might not realize that everything you see completed in the photo is just the power supply, chassis and hardware.  The actual amplifier circuit or parts are not yet there.  In fact I could use this to build several different kinds of amplifiers, or at least, several different variations of this one.

The process is the same on every amplifier...

1) Install the hardware onto the chassis
2) Establish your ground path.  In this case - a single straight 10AWG piece of copper about 10 inches long located in the exact center of the amplifier and terminated to the earth ground lug on the IEC connector also located in the exact center of the amplifier.  This sets the stage for a mirror image layout where all wires are equal length from side to side throughout the entire amp.
3) Wire up the transformers to get all those long leads out of the way
4) Install the main power supply caps

Then stand back and begin to plan your next move as I am now.


Some insight into this power supply which as you know came from the development of the Zen TORII Mono's.  It is unique and Zen like in it's simplicity - part of the appeal to me, but it's the performance that really matters.  My wanting to continue exploring it is the motivation for this amplifier.

What makes this different are all the things that are missing.  Typically you have a tube rectifier converting the AC into ragged DC which is smoothed with a capacitor.  That makes it somewhat less ragged, but it takes more.  Either a choke or a large high wattage resistor is needed followed by another capacitor is what it takes to complete the smoothing process enough to work with.  Of course these steps are repeated further down stream to continue reducing the AC ripple to a point where it's nearly gone - the same as battery power.  So the high wattage resistor and additional capacitor are repeated a minimum of once for each additional stage in the amplifier, usually twice.

The result of adding the chokes or high wattage resistors is limited current and reduced voltage.  Any amplifier designer will tell you that where good power supplies are concerned you always want as much current as you can get.  And if you're new to tube electronics, the picture above will have more to do with the sound of the amp than the actual parts used to create the amplifier circuit itself.  The quality of DC power being delivered by the supply determines the quality of the amplifier and the resulting fidelity.  So you can imagine how a preamp stage being 3 to 4 resistors and or chokes away from the power source will greatly rob current flow.  This hampers dynamics.  There is also a delay in time for the current to pass through these filters which can have profound effects on the transparency of your amplifier.

By replacing the current limiting tube rectifier with high current fast recovery diodes we eliminate the current limiting, the voltage sag, and of course a massive amount of heat.  Normally tube rectifiers sound better but that is in the context of using 10 to 100 microfarad capacitors.  When you use a 2000 microfarad capacitor that's the size of a milk bottle the game changes and the tube rectifier becomes the clear looser in this contest.

Using such a large cap stores so much energy that it becomes a black hole for all AC ripple and noise on the line.  It eliminates the need for a choke or a large high wattage resistor with additional capacitors.  That give us zero current limiting and zero voltage loss and zero heat.  It's a win, win, win.

Of course to feed the preamp stage (smaller tubes) we need to drop the voltage and the common way to do that is a high wattage resistor followed by a small capacitor.  That is how the Torii Mono's were done.  In this amp, I am replacing this resistor with a vacuum diode aka voltage regulation tube (OA3) which will give me the same voltage drop as the resistor but with 20 times the ripple reduction and 100% decoupling so that harmonics from dirty power grids in your city do not contaminate the pure DC power feeding your critical preamp stage.  This also means that again 100% of the heat has been eliminated.

This will be the first power supply I've ever done that has zero resistors and zero chokes.  It's so Zen it's scary.




Steve  ;)

What, no clown tears? Are you crazy?
So I've been rounding up clowns for the last few days for nothing?
I've spent over $59.24 in cotton candy alone. That is what I get for speculating in the clown tears market. Nothing but heartbreak and squeeky noses to show for it.

Steve explained:
Quote:

I thought thsi was a very interesting discussion, especially since I just received in my email one of Paul McGowan's posts about power supplies, in which, during the course of noting how a switching power supply could be designed to achieve some of the same objectives, he noted this:
Quote:

These are two radically different approaches to achieving similar results. McGowan is right: the vast majority of amp designers do little or nothing about this problem. We happen to be fortunate that Steve is part of the small minority, and is extremely focused about creating clean power for his amps; and yes, his approach is very Zen. I especially love that elegance.

I think it actually looks like a cross between the Taboo and the Torii monos. It looks like the holes on the back, left and right, look like headphone holes for the XLR plugs and a normal phono jacks.

....might be Balanced (XLR) INputs (Line Level RCA IN too of course)... .

I know I want one.  

SuperZen CKC, SE84CS (Stock), Mystery Amplifier & the new Taboo Amp/Headphone Amplifier.....will be the only Amps I need to Own for Reference Two Channel MUSIC.

I bet the new Mystery Amplifier, equals or EXCEEDS the new Audio Research REF75 ($9000.00) at half the price and roughly, half the watts.    -Stone

How many watts per channel are you shooting for?  What price range are you going for?

At the rate I'm going, Zenfinity is the time it's going to take to finish it!  I'm after a very specific signature and character with this amp.. and of course at my age achieving this goal with the least number of rebuilds possible turns out to be the real goal!

 

Is this it?

That's a shame. It's a beast!!!

That skull knob is just too cool!  Never saw one like that before...

That's just a plasma globe setting behind it...

Isn't that a line from "Young Frankenstein?"

Well, my thoughts behind creating this thread were to give you a real time glimpse into the design process of a new amplifier.  At this stage, I have the design and how it should sound in my head and am trying to make it happen on the bench.

So step one, yes it's alive!  Sadly it sounds like crap... so let the hunt begin!  How many things did I wire wrong?



another mystery...

I love it when you take us behind the curtain and let us see what all goes into the creation of a world-class tube amp. This thing is going to be awesome!  I better start saving my money....

After two unexpected / additional sessions with it, I was able to capture the actual moment in time of it's first true playback where I actually listened to it to see where we are... what is the starting point going to be...  thought you would enjoy the pic... in fact, here... I'll let you have the full resolution version here: https://www.decware.com/newsite/images/DSC_0052l.JPG

I believe this picture is worth a thousand words... so I'll keep it short.   What am I hearing... amazing balls, incredibly smooth, perhaps too smooth, incredible potential... the voicing will no doubt be quite a ride - I'm sure.  Can't start the voicing with something that sounds this good out the gate until it has actually broken in....  these giant caps can take some real time.

3 hours into it, the detail is increasing... it's SO the opposite of solid state... interesting.  When any other amp is having a bad hair day... meaning lots of hash in the power grid causing excessive grain and dryness...  I can already see that with this amplifier that is never going to happen...  It's smooth beyond the ability to screw it up.  Put you power plants in the ground and the decomposing steel will enrich the iron content of the soil which will in turn improve the conductivity of your ground rod that your neutral is tied to... this in turn will create blacker backgrounds and better definition than when you had it in your system.   Just a tip.  I have to say what I'm hearing right now is like battery power.  The speed of the entire amplifier is really going to be effected by the main caps...  I'm going to wait to see where it lands wondering if I'll be bypassing the electrolytic with film caps.  I also have a few other experiments going on, or planned lets say, but tonight marks the starting point, and it doesn't suck.

Fun fun fun....  wait to you hear what it took to get to this point...  I'll save that for my next post.

4 hours into it and the power transformers are barely warm.... Impressive.  Starting to really open up too.  Rock and Roll lovers.... this may be your amp.

Will this new family member end up between the Torii and the Mono's?

Hi Steve,

How much power did you measure with this amp so far?

Time for another update...

I have never had so much trouble getting bias meters to work properly!  I've had one meter give me fits since the beginning.  In fact the very first thing I did when I first fired this amp with output tubes installed, is peg one of the meters so hard I had to replace it.  

Please take a look here at how much fun it is to replace a meter in this amp!



Each meter has two green oval stickers on it (to help you locate them)  

Wouldn't have been a problem except I had the idea to make the meters even cooler than they are.  To that effect I spent a night drilling holes in the casing after taking the meters completely apart and installing just the exact right LEDs.  That's all find and dandy until you blow a meter...  

Since all ideas actually come from our higher consciousness, and or other entities in that same dimension, it's not hard to figure out that this particular idea was not from the group of dead audio gurus from ancient times that sit around their mirror pool and watch me work...no this idea was from father murphy.  Notice I won't capitalize his name out of disrespect.   In any case, the idea is.

Time out.... before I continue, can anyone guess why I spent literally 10 hours or more trying to get the action of one of the meters balanced with the rest... not to mention the value it read.   The answer is in the last photograph I posted.  If you look at the original size high res version of the photo, it is unmistakable...

OK... Where were we... ohh yea, the meters...  First of all setting up the bias windows is a real bitch, but then that 's because I have a particular way I want the biasing of the tubes to take place and it simply takes a lot of work to get it to happen.

Most fixed bias amplifiers have a bias pot for each tube, or at least each pair.  Well if it has one pot for a pair of tubes, it's completely useless... don't buy it.  The commonly seen approach is a separate adjustment pot for each output tube.  You would think this is an ideal solution, making it easy to adjust the bias for each tube perfectly.  Sadly it's almost always done from the same bias supply, so when you adjust the bias for one tube, the bias on the other tube chances slightly from where it was.  So, you adjust that tube, and now the one you previously set exactly where you wanted it, moves.   So, you adjust that one again, and the one you just finished has now moved again.  Depending on how much of a perfectionist you are, this can go back and forth about 6 times, before getting a perfect match between the tubes.

A perfect match between the tubes is the goal.  How many mills each tube is adjusted to is also a factor, but that's the kind of thing that once you decide the value and set it, you shouldn't have to ever worry about it again unless you install different tubes.  Sadly with a bias pot for each tube this is not possible.  Even with independent bias supplies and pots for each tube, you still find yourself grouping together the bias in milliamps with the balance between each tube.   It's just ridiculous.

So what I do, is have an independent bias supply for each tube and a ganged pot to control the bias in mills for the pair.  If you want 70 mills, you turn the knob and both tubes change at the same time.  THEN we add a second ganged pot mirror wired between the top and bottom sections to create a balance control.  This balances the mills between the two tubes.   Remember as tubes and the amp warm up, bias changes.  This is why the tedious ritual I described earlier using a separate bias pot for each tube has to be repeated after an hour or so of listening, because when the output tubes are perfectly matched, something audibly exotic happens to the music.  You can be certain that if an amplifier doesn't have meters, this audibly exotic set of balances will never occur.  That's again, because the bias of the tubes change with warm up.  You need a way to adjust quickly look at the amp and see if the two tubes are drawing the exact same number of mills.  If they are not, you need a simply frikin knob to turn to make them that way... all while listening to music, uninterrupted.

This is why you buy Decware.   (whoops that one slipped, sorry)

Obviously you don't want to change the mills that the pair of tubes is set at, you just want them to match.  Perfectly matched tubes are never perfectly matched except at a particular current and temperature which only happens for a short moment during the warmup cycle of the amplifier. Basically if the place you purchased your tubes matched them at the same exact current your amplifier draws, and waiting 30 minutes before testing them, your amp will have matched tubes at the 30 minute mark.  An hour later, they will be off again.  And since most places that test tubes, do them almost cold (5 minute warm up) your amp only has matched tubes for about two minutes just after the five minute mark.

So you see, the only way to achieve zen is to be able to visually see the current draw as tubes warm up, and have a simple way to adjust the balance.   You might do it two or three times in the first 2 hours.  After that you can leave it alone and it will always arrive at the same place after the same amount of time.  However, neurotic audiophiles will always opt to match the tubes at the 10 minute mark when they start listening, at the 40 minute mark when the amp is starting to get warm, and at the 2 hour mark when the amp is totally at peace.

So now you know why father murphy had the idea to put lights in the meters, because meters are important to me in these types of amplifiers.

Anyway, anyone figured out how father murphy messes with Stevieboy?

I thought I would share one simple thing that happens during the design and development process, the meter deal... but that's really only one.  I gave serious consideration of making this a real time accurate design log with every detail logged.  It would be great.  But it's too much information.  I'm just not comfortable with giving that much away.  So I'm going to be leaving most if not all of the voicing details out of this thread.  It probably won't seem that way, but yea... it will be.  The underlying point to all of this is that from pain comes gain.  There are no short cuts.  If it goes well, burry it in the back yard because it's a fluke.  You have to feel some real pain, real stress, and real anxiety to release an amplifier that's as good as everything else you've done because each of those things were the same deal.

This is where I part ways with so many "math guys" as I like to call them.  Impressive as they like to pretend they are, all of them voice an amplifier with a scope.  That's like trying to tune a piano with a toilet plunger...  

Ouch! Wrong meter???

Whoops. When I clicked the email for this thread it to me to post 74...did not see the rest and reponded with what turned out to post 80!

I finished your nights writing....thanks for keeping us in the loop. Congratulations! Tube synergy settling into the rest of the long setup so far...what new doors will this open??? Can't wait to hear!

Beautiful ride Steve.

Jd

Careful! Jason of Schiit just threatened to add $50 to the price every time someone asks about their forthcoming amp

I hope to read more soon too.  -S

Very exciting that you are satisfied with the Mystery Amp at this point, and that it performs so well with less efficient speakers! I look forward to more impressions as you play the amp more. Or could it by chance be complete?!?!?

Great news! Looking forward to more impressions.

Transformers have the biggest effect on a tube amplifier's sound in my world, so it came as no surprise that this latest intrusion into the amplifiers voicing would be big. (No that's not true... it came as a big surprise!)  And now having just witnesses how different transformers effect the sound again, I still can't help but be amazed at just how much things can change!

After several evenings discussing the output winding topologies we recently tested some classic secondary arrangements with the typical taps against some dual secondary arrangements where windings of different lengths are combined on the same bobbin.  The differences ranged from something that sounded typically real good, to something that sounded magical.  Some interesting stuff since the only main difference is in the pattern of core saturation.  I expected to have to strain to hear the difference, but instead I had to check and see if we were still listening to the same amplifier.

With this rather pleasant discovery I now know this amp is going to be hugely successful.  Optimized for (but not limited to) KT66 output tubes, I'm currently witnessing it sound better than both the Zen Mono's and the TORII MK III.  That doesn't mean it is, because it's still to new and there is some infatuation that will need to wear off before I can actually hear it objectively.

I'll keep you posted as I put the fine polish on it and continue to wrap my head around it.  Right now my comment about the sound would be this:  Generally liquidity and honesty are rarely found in the same amplifier, but this seems to be a reference for both.  Almost too good to be true.  


Steve

Sounds amazing Steve! Thanks for the ongoing story and impressions! If it sounds better than MY Torii is sounding these days, it is truly magical

I hope I can hear it one day!!!

Steve, I hope you see this question and can clarify a point you made when listening to the Janszen speakers.  We talked just yesterday about my plans to use the Torii MK3 with David's excellent speakers.  When you said above in this thread that the Torii MK3 didn't match well I need to know if you meant in general or when compared to the mystery amp and the mono blocks?

When I got on the list for the Torii MK3 the only other high wattage option was the mono blocks which are not in my spending wheel house.  From listening to the Torii with my speakers I know it won't drive the Janszens to the upper listening levels but I'm not sure I need that.  If you meant that the amp didn't match well because of sonic issues then I am not sure what to do.  It sure sounded like heaven to me.  I may still need to learn more about the mystery amp.  Is it really the amp I should be considering?  I'm probably targeting into September on the waiting list as it is with the Torii MK3.

Please give me an honest assessment if I need to rethink using the Torii MK3 with the Janszen speakers.  This will be my last amp and I'd rather not make a mistake.  The Janszen speakers aren't going anywhere.  They are keepers.  Others with average efficiency speakers may also be interested in your take.

Scott Marsh

Okay, I know I should not ask...but my curiosity is getting the best of me.

KT66 run in Triode as well as ultra linear Pentode (switch on the fly)?
I have no problem with turning the Amp off to switch between the two-if need be.

XLR (balanced inputs) as well as RCA line level (we got that peek-aboo?)

What is the input driver (preamp) tube? ....it does not look like a 6H30...but, more of a conventional one.... .

Listening to my SE84CS right now sitting in the next room typing this....Larry Carlton Playing sweetly.

So, why the Mystery Amp?  I want low end + a little more headroom without adding a Sub. However, maintaining the Transparency & Timbre Texture of the SE84CS & CKC...or coming damn close.

Candidates Are:

Mystery Amp, Audio Research Reference 75 & BAT VK-55 SE
I will run the AR or BAT direct via NAD M51 Dac, with its Balanced outputs to inputs of the Amp(s) or RCA to XLR adaptors run directly from my Audio Alchemy 3.0 Dac via remote as well.

Hope everyone is having a great summer.  Cheers, Stone of Tone

PS-the SE84CS & CKC will always remain in use...because they will always do what no other Amps can do.........I just want another flavor as layed out in Steve's Car analogy. Steve's Monte Carlo is sweet-the paint and clear coat on it, are 2nd to none (plus under the hood).

Quote:


The fundamental characteristics of an amplifier's sound are different enough between Pentode and Triode that a great sounding amplifier would have to be voiced differently for each.  I would rather pick the best sounding one, voice the amp to maximize that, so that's what I'm doing.

Quote:


Yes, RCA line level standard, fully transformer balanced XLR will be an option.

Quote:


6922, 6N1P, 6N23P

Listening to my SE84CS right now sitting in the next room typing this....Larry Carlton Playing sweetly.

So, why the Mystery Amp?  I want low end + a little more headroom without adding a Sub. However, maintaining the Transparency & Timbre Texture of the SE84CS & CKC...or coming damn close.

Candidates Are:

Mystery Amp, Audio Research Reference 75 & BAT VK-55 SE
I will run the AR or BAT direct via NAD M51 Dac, with its Balanced outputs to inputs of the Amp(s) or RCA to XLR adaptors run directly from my Audio Alchemy 3.0 Dac via remote as well.

Hope everyone is having a great summer.  Cheers, Stone of Tone

PS-the SE84CS & CKC will always remain in use...because they will always do what no other Amps can do.........I just want another flavor as layed out in Steve's Car analogy. Steve's Monte Carlo is sweet-the paint and clear coat on it, are 2nd to none (plus under the hood).

Thanks Steve for those answers and I look forward to your A/B/C comparisons and the October release with Copy.    

I hope you offer an introductory gig on it (via email release)....and I will pull the trigger on that.  

Have a great rest of your summer and get out in the Boat!  -Larry

I agree. . . those are killer controls that I love having on the Torii Mk III I have.

But. . .if you have a high efficiency driver. . . one probably wouldn't need the mystery amp, one of the super little guys should do it ALL and then some. . . .

Steve is keeping us in suspense.

This Amp is for less efficient Speakers as Lon eluded too. I hope it has the Stepped Attenuator like the Mono's. I like to augment the sweet spot driving the Amp directly from my DAC attenuation. Of course, it will drive efficient design Speakers too.

......loudspeakers that are the typical 86 / 87dB sensitivity.  To that effect the Janszen 's as listened to and posted by Steve.

Steve, I'm seriously considering this amp if you feel it will have that attention to detail that I love about my Zen Amp, but with a little more push. I'm not sure I could afford the new Torii IV - but if this fits right in-between (price wise) and gets me closer to that holographic sound with more oomph than my one off Zen amp...I'll get in line!

Lonely Raven,  I've been following this tread and I think the Mystery Amp will be considerably more expensive than the Torii IV....more in the $5500 ballpark.  The power would probably be around 50 watts per channel....if I'm reading between the lines correctly.  Of course it's all just speculation on my part, until we get more details from "The Man".

Ahh, I must have misread. I thought I read somewhere that this was placed between the Zen and Torii. I didn't realize it would be between the Torii and Monos.

Ok, looks like I need to digu p $3k for a Torii III/IV

~Eric~

Thanks Steve, for these updates. I hope your back is healing up.

I plan on purchasing the Mystery Amp. I have returned my Primaluna Dialogue Five and PS Audio PWT/PWDII. I have freed up the funds to proceed with this Amp.

I own the SE84CS stock & SuperZen CKC.....never to be sold. I regret letting my Torii MKIII go. Point being, you don't make Amps that sound "just good enough". You sir, pain staking create instruments for the music to get out.

I look forward to its release. Cheers to all, and all have a safe and fun Labor Day Weekend.    -Stone of Tone

Quote:


I bet he just adores the Audio Alchemy stuff ... he's said it on many occasions ... he's runined for anything but Decware and Audio Alchemy

Okay cool. I'm not at all tempted by the Mystery Amp or the Mk IV. I don't need more power, and I think the Mk III is more "flexible" than the Mk IV will be, and a well seasoned Mk III is just butter for me, just what I want. More transparency does not mean more musicality for me, I have more bad recordings than good to listen to and with the flexibility of the Mk IIIs I have I can make things listenable, and I listen.

I have a Vaughn-modified C amp in my Dad's system and while my original Mk III was back in Peoria for upgrading I had it in my main system. I really do see the super transparency and magic in those amps, but I can honestly say I missed my Mk III insanely and really prefer its mellow drive and ability to be made more forgiving. That I need most. It has gobs of weight too with the HR-1s or ERRs. I can't ask for more and won't.

But I'm excited for you! Keep us posted! (I know you will).

Stone, from the way you talk about those Polks I gotta hear them sometime!  Just checking, but is this the setup you have with the Audio Alchemy stuff?  If so, not a bad price ...

Newest Speakers? Which ones?

Nope, Beowulf....the thread post you put up is for the cheapy Alchemy stuff.

Steve, very cool how this shook down on solving the hum and a better way to ground it.....for the Mystery Amp!

I look forward to hearing it with the DM945's.  I can't wait till the Fest...I sold Medtronic stock...and I'm jonesin' for some Decware Products.   -Stone

Stone, I'd love to know more about your acoustically treated room! Do you happen to have a thread here? Photos?