Nice idea re F15 in a medium baffle.  Back to your large plywood baffles for the F15 - how do they sonically compare to your hardwood baffles?

I had some time to sand and put a coat of linseed oil on the baffles. For not knowing what I am doing, they turned out pretty nice.  Still need to do the plugs.  I left the backs unfinished in case I want to add a second layer of wood to make them 2".

An interesting discovery.  When I was installing the supports on the back I did the old knock test on the bottom of the baffle to see how the wood sounded before and after adding the red oak mass that is bolted to the bottom inside lag screws in the picture below.  Then I did it again after and the sound change was pretty substantial.  Much deeper, less ringing.  

Then I listened to them with the 25th and they sounded much closer to what I heard at the fest.  Denser, more full bass for sure.  It just shows you that wood matters and mass matters as well.  I know Steve talked about this in the thread, but to see it have that much impact was a learning moment for me.

Beautiful work!

Yeah, I can get a picture tonight.  

I didn't add that much mass.  Certainly not as much as Steve adds.  But it was enough to affect the sound.

If I don't need to wax, I won't.  I like the finish, just thought wax might help it stay that way.

Very nice, Pal.  I love the finish!  Glad the support made that much difference in the sound.  I'm like Archie - I want to see what the back looks like...

Btw I also did the highly scientific knock test before and after I re-attached the handles to the top.  Not nearly as much change in the tone but a change none the less.  I think too much deadening of the wood with thickness, mass, weights etc can make the drivers sound too mellow.

With Decware equipment Steve keeps it less warm than traditional tube amps and I want that characteristic to stay.

Pal, I can't remember what your footers looked like originally but I assume you've got more to Steve's version?

I agree with the rightness of the look Steve. Pleasing and comfortable. Making pots most of my life, when the pots went beyond clay, fire, form, maker, etc.— natural mystery, lively beauty, and function seemed to be reflections of one another...or maybe better put, aspects of one another. When natural and complete enough to enhance daily life, beauty is function.

Can't wait to hear what the medium baffles sound like to you!

You know, one big takeaway for me from this whole big and medium Betsy unveiling and high praise is. . . Randy has certainly earned, beyond dispute, his DEMIGOD status in the Decware audio world, and it's extending BEYOND in the future will not surprise me.

I'm a solid user for over a decade and into the future of the Steve and Bob radial designs, and would rather spend imaginary or future money on the fullest upgraded HR-1 than a Betsy, but DAMN this Betsy design remains a masterstroke that has born wonderful fruit!

I'd be a lot more interested in the Betsy's if . . .

I didn't already have one more pair of speakers than I can use (ERR). . .

And if they would fit somewhere in my house for the two systems I have. They won't unless I were living alone. . . which I don't want to do!

I'm sure I'd love the newest edition of the HR-1s but I can't afford them right now. Maybe one day! I'm happy otherwise, very much so, with the two pair I have.

All praise to the Demigod of Caintuck! He has come into his own.

Lon wrote .....

Quote:


Hi Lon,

Many thanks for the kind words ..... but I much prefer the more accurate designation of "the blind squirrel that found the occassional acorn" .....

There is certainly true genius that exists in this world, such as that of your relative who built the amazing instrument played by Jack Mitchener on the Dulcet Tones album you introduced us to.
I play that album on a regular basis and use it as a "demo disk" when someone wants to hear my audio system ..... it's amazing .....

Best wishes,
Randy

I really like the look, very clean, “simple” and effective.

Finished the last coat of oil today, and should be able to get some drivers installed this evening.

Steve

Nice! Eagerly awaiting your impressions and then of course, how they break-in.  :)

 


Side View with the F15 driver installed.

So now we wait for the handles...  meanwhile I drug them into the listening room to start breaking in the drivers.

Going from memory, when the original Big Betsy baffle was breaking-in, I can safely say that these Medium Baffles seem to have all the hit and bass of the big ones.  At this stage I can't tell any difference. Once they are burned-in for a few weeks, I will do some A/B tests to figure out what is different. The fact that I will have to "figure it out" should tell you something.

They look beautiful in the listening room. Way beyond my expectations. Also, I was not only able to lift them, I actually carried the first one into the listening room from my shop. I felt like that was probably a poor idea at about the half-way point. The second one I was torn about carrying it in left handed to balance out the pain from the first one, or just using my two-wheeler. I went with the later. So yea, they can be moved around similarly to the Crystal 10 baffles.

I can't wait for the handles to arrive to I can hear what these are actually going to sound like. Then I'll be able to figure out the difference in sound between the baltic birch plywood and the hardwood baffles I made.  

This reminds me of something I've been wanting to mention... during the fest someone grabbed a scrap of Wenge when we were out in the shop and tapped it. It sounded like glass.  A good way to listen to wood, is to size it all the same, preferably flat and wide and perhaps 3/8 inch thick so you can strike it like an instrument. The Paduke is a far warmer tone. Mixing the Paduke and the Wenge may be where the refined magic comes from. In the case of the Crystal 10 baffles, I used white oak which is closer to the Wenge, and then Walnut which is actually softer than Paduke. Point is, contrasting woods are going to have a dramatic effect on how that baffle resonates and where.

Steve

BTW, I agree with Lon about Randy : )



I keep waiting for the dual 6x9 to come out, then we'll all know for sure

Steve

On the medium baffles, nice grain! Nice to hear 1st impressions are so good too. These speakers are still pretty big right? Guessing something like ± 35 x 30?

Quick noob question: why no tilt back on these and similar style (Randy’s) baffles since often they are fairly low to the floor, even if slight, i.e. 5 degrees?  How does that help or hurt the sound of the units?

No intent to take this thread off track, rather to add some additional information regarding this design.

Appreciate any insights.

Although there are more knowledgeable persons here than I, it has to do with bass response. When set on the floor, the sound "floats" above the baffles so they don't really need to be tilted. I was there at Decfest when Randy's 15" baffles were lifted. The sound was "higher" but the bass was diminished.

People heard Randy's Betsy speakers w/woofer and his version of his baffles with the F-15s at Decfest and everyone was impressed.  Randy's speakers on his Caintuck Audio website are much smaller if size is an issue.

Steve,
Using a shelf or boxlike structure in back instead of open feet or open legs, was this influenced by the box on the back of your original Open Baffle speaker?

Brian

Rivieraranch wrote .....

Quote:


Yep ..... you nailed it.
The "received wisdom" states that the primary driver of a loudspeaker needs to be at ear level of the seated listener. While there may be some benefit to this with many speakers, it appears that full range drivers in open baffles are not "captive" to this rule.
By having the drivers closer to the floor, it couples the floor to the speaker and enhances the bass and lower midrange. You can actually "tune" the frequency balance by tilting the speakers by varying degrees.

I know that quite a few of my customers do tilt the speakers back in their listening rooms ..... YMMV.

In my listening room, I am content with the height of the stereo image with the baffles sitting flat on the floor ..... but it's a matter of personal taste.

Best wishes,
Randy

EPIPHANY:

About the handle, vibration, and how this baffle works.

So today the handles came in for the medium baffles I just completed. I have been listening to them for a couple days without the handles, struggling with the break-in of the new drivers. In that state the speakers sounded somewhat congested and had a bass peak I didn't care for.

As I've noticed on both other baffles, when I place my hand on the handle, the sound changes. It gets softer. Today I realized what is happening as I did it over and over. My heavy arm is a vibration sink connected to the handle which is connected to the baffle. That means the baffle goes from live to dead which would be similar to creating a baffle made from two stiff layers with a soft sandwich in-between.

Without having built one to see for certain, I am 90% certain it will suck. When I say putting my hand on the handle makes the sound softer, I mean that immediacy goes away, sounding more like a conventional speaker than a live experience.

So as I have been suspecting all along, it is the stiffness and mass of the baffle that controls the energy in it. That energy is released into the air literally as fast as it is created. There is no phase angle discrepancy that I can hear. With my hand on the handle, the baffles ability to move in phase is ruined and the sound becomes softer and less distinct.

Also, the bass peak that has been difficult to deal with over the past two days is gone, replaced by an ultra tight hit.  This is solely due to the cast iron handle.

The DIY plywood version medium baffle with the F15 driver sounds very close to the hardwood, enough so that you would have to A/B to hear it.  So this should be encouraging to the DIY speaker builders who do not have planers and jointers.  

With these baffles, that I can lift without much trouble, I can now move to spikes and see if that ruins the sound or makes it better.  My floor is concrete with carpet.

-Steve

Quote:


It was influenced by Randy's original design.  If you were to remove that thick base (2x thicker than the baffle thickness), the sound would be ruined.  It and the handle placement are two of the tricks that make these speakers work.  You'll notice I don't skimp on the mass of this base, and there is a reason for it ; )

Steve