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I am assuming you mean the Crystal 10 drivers in Lii Audio's own cabinet which we have recently received, and while still breaking in, the initial take away when comparing it to the Big Betsy, is that the Big Betsy hits harder, the Crystal 10 cabinet hits lower.  Big Betsy sound stage is bigger and the speaker has more projection.  This is expected due to the physics of the Big Betsy open baffle design vs. a ported box.  As far as ported boxes go, the Crystal 10 is cleverly designed to minimize internal reflections and parallel surfaces for a surprisingly clean sound.  The top of the box has some resonance that adds energy to sound and may have been intentional, however it can be deadened with a sandbag or similar approach if you prefer.

The Crystal 10 cabinet is larger than a Big Betsy so it's not a space saver, would be ideal in medium and larger rooms where you want to effortlessly fill it with a live majestic sound.  For $2500 a pair I can't think of anything better, and especially for those with our low powered amplifiers because these speaker will be like trading your 2 watt Zen Triode in on our 40 watt ZMA.  

Hope that helps,

Steve

The design that I used.

Interesting mod Archie.  I have those binding posts on my Rachael.  Never really heard the amp without them so I can’t comment.  I do clean them a couple times a year.

Are any F15/Crystal builders coming to the fest?

Thanks Steve,

Without nitpicking too much over which edges out which in specific areas, sounds like the Lii Audio is great for the money.

Getting a nearly full range performance from a full range driver regardless of price is something I haven't heard yet. Buying a pair would be a slight gamble. But for where I'd put them I was most intrigued by the fact that I liked the look, my wife loved the look (even after I explained how big they are) and I could finally get a full performance out of a few watts from a speaker that I'd be allowed to own.

The Big Betsy and Caintuck's smaller take look super interesting, but didn't get a pass due to their looks.

Thanks Steve. Seriously considering these to partner with a Zen in the future.

We started this build by making a template of the radius out of 1/2 inch MDF.  This was used with a flush trim router bit to create the radius on each side of a 3/4 sheet of baltic birch.  First we cut close to the line with a jigsaw, then use the router to make that final pass.

We decided to make the baffle from two 3/4 thick panels and one 1/2 inch panel sandwiched in-between.

Steve

Not yet, but so far all I'm doing is holding the camera, and turning on and off the vacuum. Of course I am telling Bob how to do it as we go... (yea right).  

Actually in fairness, Bob did curse the same demon summoning router that I cursed saying that it's just backwards. So now I feel better. Nevertheless because he brought his router with him, Murphy picked today to make the plunge function on his router non-adjustable so we had to use the one I recently bought. Actually come to think about it, that brought on some cursing too... but this kind of casual cursing doesn't summon demons.  When I put the router bit through the table top that day, I was pissed on an exponentially higher level.

So, no disappointments here... plenty of actuall cursing did take place, and as a machinist you know that cursing is what holds tolerances from getting too far out of whack.  

Steve

Now that first layer is cut, the woofer cutout is next.

Always a good idea to put double stick tape under the baffle and cutout so that it doesn't move when you finally cut through.

Now that we have the first layer cut for each baffle, we glued up the three layers as shown.  Bob didn't bring his vacuum press, so this is how you would do it without one.  Note:  The 2x4's are crowned so that there is more pressure in the middle.  Same with the Wenge scraps, both were slightly crowned, so they were perfect.  One of the 2x4 wasn't crowned enough, so we made it more crowned on the jointer.

When this dries, we will take a jigsaw  and cut the two un-cut layers as close to the top one as possible and then take a flush-trim router bit, using the top layer as the pattern, clean everything up.

Steve

Here are both rear bases in part being glued up...

And with that done, we can start sanding.

Using one of nearly finished bases between the baffle and the table leg along with a clamp, we are ready to finish sanding the radius.

So as of tonight both baffles are done... the solid maple front feet are done and the rear bases are finished.

Tomorrow we will finish sand everything and then seal it with shellac and spray the speakers with clear lacquer.

I can tell you already that these will be every bit the equal to the solid hardwood Big Betsy that I started this thread with. They are nearly as heavy, I would say close in density and the look mean, and the look expensive. Since the original Big Betsy was 1-3/4 inches thick by the time I was done with them, we made these Baltic Birch plywood versions 2 inches thick.

We hope to have solid estimates of the costs of all three by Friday.

-Steve

Let us know.  That is an attractive price.

Thanks for sharing Steve.  I like the template idea.  I am thinking about adding another 1" panel to my current 1" baffles and will probably use that method.

Also, I have been playing around with the linseed oil. What a nice, easy finish.  I am not doing the main baffles yet because of the above contemplated addition of another panel.

I am listening to the Big Betsys exclusively now before the fest so I have the memory of how they sound before I hear Steve/Bob's version of the same.

Having put them back in my system after listening to my old OBs with the Acoustic Elegance bass drivers for a couple of days, I can safely say that the Big Betsy's actually have more hit in that 100-200Hz range which is pretty intoxicating.  They don't go as low, but you definitely feel them more.

We have them done here and doing a dry assembly, mostly so we can stand them up and see how everything fits.







The front feet we made from solid hard maple so that if we went with a clear finish they would match.  

Steve

Another view...

Final picture for today...  getting the first coat of white lacquer on them.  We were able to finish them before dark.  You'll have to wait until tomorrow to see them in white.

Steve

We're making good progress with the pricing... also we have decided that plywood, MDF and any other sheet lumber will not be used.  Instead, to replace the birch plywood we will use solid 8/4 Poplar. Priced next to that will be 8/4 solid Maple, and so on up the ladder of hardwoods. That means if you want them in white or black (or red for Donny) solid popular or maple would be used.

We will have this pair we built on static display during the fest.  Tonight they are waiting for the F15 drivers to arrive in the morning.





If I have time tomorrow I'll take another shot with the F15's installed.

Steve

We will eventually figure it all out, but I predict the answer is going to be:  Good, Better, Best but within a fairly narrow window so on the surface I don't think it's going to make a lot of difference. To the ultra serious daily listener pushing the envelope at every level, then the difference would be noticeable and probably justifiable but certainly not a deal breaker because if you've never heard the exotic hardwood, you'll be tripping on how good the poplar, plywood or even MDF sounds.  Realize this speaker sounds about 3 times better than everything you put up against it, and we're now having a discussion about something that at best would make a 10% difference.

Steve

Some general thoughts about Decfest.  Since they are mostly OB focused, I decided just to put them here.

I was only there for about 22 hours and spent of lot of the time shooting the sh*t rather than in the listening room.  Still, I was able to get through most of what I wanted to do.

As always thanks to Devon, Steve and family for hosting.  The Bar-b-Q pork was delicious, and the beer selection was great.  Dan also made some tasty and smooth pumpkin soup which I was able to sample before I left.

On my list was basically to compare my 1” Big Betsy’s baffles to Steve’s mega baffles.  Evaluate the Crystal 10s, hear the F15s in Randy’s baffles, hear the Alnico version of the Betsy and measure some tubes.  I got most of it done.

As far as my baffles versus Steve’s.....wood matters.  Steve’s baffles produce a very different sound.  I listened to my baffles all week to make sure I had their sound drilled into my head, but it was an easy call.  The extra density makes for a richer, deeper sound out of these baffles.  I also sensed that the mid range was clearer.  Not sure I understand that.  

But here’s the thing.  I was trying to determine if I should double up my baffles to make them 2”.  When I came home and listened, I liked what I heard.  My baffles are more mid-range focused and a little "lighter".   Not that the bass is lacking, but its not as deep and rich as Steve's.  So I am on the fence about adding the additional layer.

We were unable to listen to Steve and Bob’s Big Baltic Birch Baffles to compare.  They had them in the wood shop, but without drivers mounted.

In terms of the Crystal 10s.  I am not sure I got the full picture of these drivers.  I heard them and did not like them at times, and at other times, felt they sounded fantastic.  

On Friday, I heard them in the big cabinets at one end of the room and in the open baffles on the other.  I wasn't crazy about them.  Then, on Saturday, I had some early morning time in the room with just a few people and essentially, set up with close to the chain I have at home - Mac-DAC-Zbit-25th and I thought they sounded really good.  Very smooth and detailed, so perhaps it was the chain on Friday.

As far as the F15s in Randy’s baffles, you don’t lose all that much and possibly gain some bass.  I attributed this to them gaining bass bounce off the floor.  On the downside, the soundstage is not as big or high as with the Big Betsy Baffles.  Some people discussed tilting them a little but
I did not hear them set up like this.

I did not get to hear the Alnico version of the Betsys (again).  These drivers keep eluding me.

The surprise of the fest for me was Randy’s dual driver OBs in his traditional baffle.  It’s a Betsy with a 10” Eminence woofer.  The sound floated above the baffles, had enough bass to keep me interested and perhaps gave the best sound stage of the fest.

Bob’s new HR-1s also sounded good to me.  I love that tweeter and they had plenty of full, low bass.

Hey Randy.  Sorry I got the size wrong on that one.  Did they get more play later in the Fest??

Also, I am very interested in your he-shed.  Did you detail your build somewhere on the forums???

How far from Cincy are you??

I'm not surprised that the ZBOBs were popular at the Fest this year.  I decided to put my HR1s back in before storing them and they lasted for one song.  They sounded great but were hobbled by low volume (92.5dB vs ~100dB) and "small sound."  I think my big room just needs the ZBOB bigness.  After listening to the ZBOB for an extended period I had gotten so use to their sound that I wasn't hearing the magic.  It's amazing how fast we set our new normal.

Nevermind, found it on the web site.

For now, I am a committed OB guy.  I have found my woofer (Acoustic Elegance) but I am still seeking the right driver(s) for my mids and highs.

I am not dissatisfied with what I have for highs/mids (Dayton AMT / Tang Band W8-1808) but feel there could be more detail there that I am not getting.  When I heard the Crystal 10s on Saturday morning, I heard details that I haven't heard before.

I also recently sold two Decware amps so I have a little mad money in my pocket.

Pal, what is your power source for your Acoustic Elegance?

UPDATE

After studying peoples reactions to the Big Betsy and Big Betsy Jr. baffles during the fest, and after talking with Randy of Caintuck Audio, we came to the realization that A) the Big Betsys are BIG.  Not everyone can do big.  B) The Big Betsy Jr, with the Crystal 10 are a nice size but are lighter in the bass and require a ZROCK2.  The drivers are also nearly a grand more than the F15 drivers used in the Big Betsy.  When you add both of those factors in, the price well exceeds a Big Betsy with the F15's...

We realized that we need a third baffle... the magic bullet, the best of both sort of thing that would actually cost a bit LESS than the Big Betsy, not a lot more.

So this weekend I am prototyping a similar size baffle to the Big Betsy Jr., but with an F15 driver !!!

If this works as well as we know it will, it should be by far the most popular seller of the three models.  Since there are now going to be three models, it changes things.  My previous model numbers, ZBOB and ZBOBJR, no longer make sense.  

I have decided to make the Big Betsy with the F15 drivers   the model ZF15L, (Zen F15 Large)

I have decided to make the Big Betsy Jr, with the Crystal 10 drivers, the model ZC10M (Zen Crystal 10 Medium)

I have decided to make the new baffle with the F15 drivers, the model ZF15M, (Zen F15 Medium)

This makes a lot more sense and leaves room for alternate drivers in the future that will go into either the Large or Medium baffles.



I am making this new "medium" sized baffle 2-5/8 inches wider than the Crystal 10 Baffle as well as a little taller.  This will better accommodate the 15 inch driver.

I am anxious to hear how this compares to the other two as I'm sure you are as well so stay tuned ; )

Steve