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Steve's BIG BETSY Project (Read 361950 times)
Steve Deckert
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Re: Steve's BIG BETSY Project
Reply #800 - 09/28/19 at 04:28:58
 

Quote:
Thanks. I'm interested in Steve's take on the differences between the BB and Lii's Crystal 10, since they're both in the room. However, I doubt I'll be able to get away with an OB at all due to the finished look. My wife really likes the Crystal 10. I'm blessed that way!


I am assuming you mean the Crystal 10 drivers in Lii Audio's own cabinet which we have recently received, and while still breaking in, the initial take away when comparing it to the Big Betsy, is that the Big Betsy hits harder, the Crystal 10 cabinet hits lower.  Big Betsy sound stage is bigger and the speaker has more projection.  This is expected due to the physics of the Big Betsy open baffle design vs. a ported box.  As far as ported boxes go, the Crystal 10 is cleverly designed to minimize internal reflections and parallel surfaces for a surprisingly clean sound.  The top of the box has some resonance that adds energy to sound and may have been intentional, however it can be deadened with a sandbag or similar approach if you prefer.

The Crystal 10 cabinet is larger than a Big Betsy so it's not a space saver, would be ideal in medium and larger rooms where you want to effortlessly fill it with a live majestic sound.  For $2500 a pair I can't think of anything better, and especially for those with our low powered amplifiers because these speaker will be like trading your 2 watt Zen Triode in on our 40 watt ZMA.  

Hope that helps,

Steve

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Re: Steve's BIG BETSY Project
Reply #801 - 09/28/19 at 15:52:06
 
You might consider doing what I did. I wanted the Crystal 10 in an open Baffle, but needed a smaller baffle. I let my room dictate the size I could accommodate. They ended up being about 3” smaller in height and width than Steve’s. I think they are the perfect size for my room. I will include a few pics.

Good luck,

Geno
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30AEA5C9-90F0-4296-A60C-17AECFF53691.jpeg

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Re: Steve's BIG BETSY Project
Reply #802 - 09/28/19 at 15:53:24
 
The design that I used.
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10F7FD1E-1609-40CF-BF37-54293E38639E.png

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Re: Steve's BIG BETSY Project
Reply #803 - 09/28/19 at 18:10:17
 
Will, I bet the "debate" of rhodium vs not is orders of magnitude less important than my original case of the thin edge of gold plated brass that made point contact with my speaker wires.  What I have now is more like a solid wire connection.  I used some Graphene contact enhancer as well.

These Cardas posts are very impressive.  I only paid $68 for the two pair.  The Furez bananas recommended by maddog are simple and brilliant as well (and very inexpensive for the crimp and solder style).  They make firm (tight) contact.

It's amazing how seemingly small things make such big differences.  The F15 drivers really ought to come with better binding posts but at their price point I guess they don't want to increase 10% to 20% just for them?

Oh, I cranked up my solder iron to 850 degrees and put on my widest tip.  I doubt I could have fit a gun (which I don't have) in behind the speaker cone.  Cardas must anticipate high heat as the plastic they use didn't melt.

A point of interest to anyone who might want to change their F15 posts, the original hole is about 1/4".  I drilled a 3/8" hole and used a thin strip of electrical tape as an insulator between the post and the sides of the holes (installed after the post cooled).  The Cardas posts wanted a 1/2" hole but I didn't feel comfortable taking that much metal away.
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Re: Steve's BIG BETSY Project
Reply #804 - 09/28/19 at 18:34:04
 
Interesting mod Archie.  I have those binding posts on my Rachael.  Never really heard the amp without them so I can’t comment.  I do clean them a couple times a year.

Are any F15/Crystal builders coming to the fest?
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Re: Steve's BIG BETSY Project
Reply #805 - 09/28/19 at 18:48:07
 
Pal, You'd have to change the F15 posts hear if they matter for you.  With your bananas in the existing F15 post holes you probably already have better contact than I had.  Those spring loaded binding posts remind me of the cheap guillotine connections I always had on lower priced components.
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Re: Steve's BIG BETSY Project
Reply #806 - 09/29/19 at 00:12:36
 
Thanks Steve,

Without nitpicking too much over which edges out which in specific areas, sounds like the Lii Audio is great for the money.

Getting a nearly full range performance from a full range driver regardless of price is something I haven't heard yet. Buying a pair would be a slight gamble. But for where I'd put them I was most intrigued by the fact that I liked the look, my wife loved the look (even after I explained how big they are) and I could finally get a full performance out of a few watts from a speaker that I'd be allowed to own.

The Big Betsy and Caintuck's smaller take look super interesting, but didn't get a pass due to their looks.

Thanks Steve. Seriously considering these to partner with a Zen in the future.
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Re: Steve's BIG BETSY Project
Reply #807 - 09/29/19 at 03:12:01
 
I'm thrilled that your wife likes the looks!  I'm sure you would be thrilled with the performance.  If I could get every 2 watt customer of ours to own a pair of these, I would.

Steve
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Re: Steve's BIG BETSY Project
Reply #808 - 09/29/19 at 03:26:01
 



We started this build by making a template of the radius out of 1/2 inch MDF.  This was used with a flush trim router bit to create the radius on each side of a 3/4 sheet of baltic birch.  First we cut close to the line with a jigsaw, then use the router to make that final pass.

We decided to make the baffle from two 3/4 thick panels and one 1/2 inch panel sandwiched in-between.

Steve
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Re: Steve's BIG BETSY Project
Reply #809 - 09/29/19 at 03:39:02
 
And no curse words were uttered!
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Steve Deckert
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Re: Steve's BIG BETSY Project
Reply #810 - 09/29/19 at 03:58:09
 
Not yet, but so far all I'm doing is holding the camera, and turning on and off the vacuum. Of course I am telling Bob how to do it as we go... (yea right).  

Actually in fairness, Bob did curse the same demon summoning router that I cursed saying that it's just backwards. So now I feel better. Nevertheless because he brought his router with him, Murphy picked today to make the plunge function on his router non-adjustable so we had to use the one I recently bought. Actually come to think about it, that brought on some cursing too... but this kind of casual cursing doesn't summon demons.  When I put the router bit through the table top that day, I was pissed on an exponentially higher level.

So, no disappointments here... plenty of actuall cursing did take place, and as a machinist you know that cursing is what holds tolerances from getting too far out of whack.  

Steve
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Re: Steve's BIG BETSY Project
Reply #811 - 09/29/19 at 04:25:14
 
I'm used to cussing that make sailors blush.
Close work requires a lot of doubt in your coworkers  parents marital situation and perhaps description of some sort of sexual proclivities that are out of the scope of civilised discussion.
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Re: Steve's BIG BETSY Project
Reply #812 - 09/29/19 at 04:52:46
 



Now that first layer is cut, the woofer cutout is next.



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Re: Steve's BIG BETSY Project
Reply #813 - 09/29/19 at 05:07:01
 



Yup, there it is...

a 15-3/8" diameter 1/2 inch deep with a 14 inch cutout.  This top layer will be used as a pattern to cut the other two layers.

Steve
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Re: Steve's BIG BETSY Project
Reply #814 - 09/29/19 at 06:29:52
 



Always a good idea to put double stick tape under the baffle and cutout so that it doesn't move when you finally cut through.






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Re: Steve's BIG BETSY Project
Reply #815 - 09/29/19 at 17:58:03
 
I'm a little surprised that you guys are cutting layer by layer.  I guess you'll tidy up the edges once it's glued up.
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Re: Steve's BIG BETSY Project
Reply #816 - 09/30/19 at 03:13:30
 



Now that we have the first layer cut for each baffle, we glued up the three layers as shown.  Bob didn't bring his vacuum press, so this is how you would do it without one.  Note:  The 2x4's are crowned so that there is more pressure in the middle.  Same with the Wenge scraps, both were slightly crowned, so they were perfect.  One of the 2x4 wasn't crowned enough, so we made it more crowned on the jointer.

When this dries, we will take a jigsaw  and cut the two un-cut layers as close to the top one as possible and then take a flush-trim router bit, using the top layer as the pattern, clean everything up.

Steve
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Re: Steve's BIG BETSY Project
Reply #817 - 09/30/19 at 03:17:40
 



Here is what it looks like after the glue has dried.
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Re: Steve's BIG BETSY Project
Reply #818 - 09/30/19 at 03:19:24
 



Here are both rear bases in part being glued up...

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Re: Steve's BIG BETSY Project
Reply #819 - 09/30/19 at 03:30:57
 



So using the top layer as the template, we will flush trim the radius, top and bottom and the woofer cut-out. The pilot hole is drilled and ready for the router.

Steve
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Re: Steve's BIG BETSY Project
Reply #820 - 09/30/19 at 03:47:44
 


And with that done, we can start sanding.

Using one of nearly finished bases between the baffle and the table leg along with a clamp, we are ready to finish sanding the radius.

So as of tonight both baffles are done... the solid maple front feet are done and the rear bases are finished.

Tomorrow we will finish sand everything and then seal it with shellac and spray the speakers with clear lacquer.

I can tell you already that these will be every bit the equal to the solid hardwood Big Betsy that I started this thread with. They are nearly as heavy, I would say close in density and the look mean, and the look expensive. Since the original Big Betsy was 1-3/4 inches thick by the time I was done with them, we made these Baltic Birch plywood versions 2 inches thick.

We hope to have solid estimates of the costs of all three by Friday.

-Steve

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Re: Steve's BIG BETSY Project
Reply #821 - 09/30/19 at 16:22:05
 
Well, seeing as the FAST 10 just went on sale on the Lii Audio site a little while back, I decided the price could not be beat and ordered a pair. Hopefully they provide some of the same sound quality as the Crystal 10's or the F15's.
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Re: Steve's BIG BETSY Project
Reply #822 - 09/30/19 at 18:03:54
 
Let us know.  That is an attractive price.
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Re: Steve's BIG BETSY Project
Reply #823 - 09/30/19 at 20:25:48
 
One thing I see about the FAST 10 is that the Qts is even lower than the Crystal 10 and significantly lower than the F15.  I assume you're intending it for OB?
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Re: Steve's BIG BETSY Project
Reply #824 - 10/01/19 at 14:04:44
 
Thanks for sharing Steve.  I like the template idea.  I am thinking about adding another 1" panel to my current 1" baffles and will probably use that method.

Also, I have been playing around with the linseed oil. What a nice, easy finish.  I am not doing the main baffles yet because of the above contemplated addition of another panel.

I am listening to the Big Betsys exclusively now before the fest so I have the memory of how they sound before I hear Steve/Bob's version of the same.

Having put them back in my system after listening to my old OBs with the Acoustic Elegance bass drivers for a couple of days, I can safely say that the Big Betsy's actually have more hit in that 100-200Hz range which is pretty intoxicating.  They don't go as low, but you definitely feel them more.
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Re: Steve's BIG BETSY Project
Reply #825 - 10/01/19 at 16:31:13
 
"One thing I see about the FAST 10 is that the Qts is even lower than the Crystal 10 and significantly lower than the F15.  I assume you're intending it for OB?"

Semi-OB. The design I'm currently running is an enclosure with subs that have a baffle that extends past the enclosure, where the FR driver is mounted. I just haven't found a driver yet that gives decent LF extension below 40hz. Might be good enough for many people, but I find the sound "thin". I suppose I could have gone single FR driver in an OB and supplemented with a powered sub, but this is kind of like supplementing with dual powered stereo subs. The single sub works for some people, but I find I can pretty easily tell directional LF, especially when the FR drivers may only put out reasonable response down to say 60-80hz. Bumping the sub to meet that response gives it more directional sound. On the con side, it really makes it hard to sell off old designs when you need to specify that it needs 2 amps to run!
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Re: Steve's BIG BETSY Project
Reply #826 - 10/02/19 at 02:12:28
 

We have them done here and doing a dry assembly, mostly so we can stand them up and see how everything fits.







The front feet we made from solid hard maple so that if we went with a clear finish they would match.  

Steve
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Re: Steve's BIG BETSY Project
Reply #827 - 10/02/19 at 02:21:26
 

We decided not to go with a clear finish, because the plywood is so bitchy to work with, stringy with unpredictable tear out. Also it is drum sanded so once you stain it, you will see ripples no matter how smooth you have it sanded.



I used amber shellac (vs. clear shellac) to seal the baffles before we painted them so I could see what that looked like and it looked like shit. Don't ever try it as a final finish. As a sealer it kicks ass though with only one coat.

Steve


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Re: Steve's BIG BETSY Project
Reply #828 - 10/02/19 at 02:49:56
 



Another view...




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Re: Steve's BIG BETSY Project
Reply #829 - 10/02/19 at 02:58:40
 



The shellac has dried and now the baffles are disassembled and sanded again. Look how yellow the dust is from sanding the amber shellac.

Steve

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Re: Steve's BIG BETSY Project
Reply #830 - 10/02/19 at 03:13:31
 



Final picture for today...  getting the first coat of white lacquer on them.  We were able to finish them before dark.  You'll have to wait until tomorrow to see them in white.

Steve

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Re: Steve's BIG BETSY Project
Reply #831 - 10/02/19 at 03:48:00
 

As I mentioned a week or two ago, the Big Betsy and Big Betsy Jr., names can not be used when the speaker goes into production, and that we would be changing the names of both baffles.

I'm not going to actually give them a name, but like most of our products, a serial number that stands for something.  Zen Open Baffle, (ZOB) is a classic example.  So these speakers due to the expense to make and the insane level of performance are going to become part of the Zen Master Series of loudspeakers by Decware.  The Zen Master Series Mark will be flown on the front of the baffle below the driver.  On the solid hardwood models it will be engraved.  On the black and white models it will be a decal of the opposite color (white on black or black on white) and then sealed in under the final clear coat.

Here is the mark for the Decware Zen Master Series



The model number for the Big Betsy will be the ZBOB which stands for Zen Big Open Baffle.  and ZBOBJR, for Zen Big Open Baffle Jr.

Making this "budget" plywood model white with the black logo and such is going to be every bit as hot as looking at the solid hardwood models, and as far as I can tell be $1000 less than the hardwood models.  Don't picture plywood painted white with house paint, picture a hi-end automotive finish because that is what it will be.

We learned from this experiment that the plywood model actually took more time to build than jointing solid wood. Somewhat disappointing, but that's the way it is so what are you going to do? We will make the plans available for these so that anyone wanting to D.I.Y. a pair to save money can still enjoy the glorious sound they produce.

I think Dank had the right idea using MDF which would have gone flawless from start to finish, but the bitchy birch plywood just makes it take twice as long and then if you have to fix anything double it again.  You'll have to fix something.  

So there you have it, this is where we are at in the final hours before the fest, with a potentially better looking Big Open Baffle than my hardwood prototype.

Steve





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Re: Steve's BIG BETSY Project
Reply #832 - 10/03/19 at 02:31:30
 

We're making good progress with the pricing... also we have decided that plywood, MDF and any other sheet lumber will not be used.  Instead, to replace the birch plywood we will use solid 8/4 Poplar. Priced next to that will be 8/4 solid Maple, and so on up the ladder of hardwoods. That means if you want them in white or black (or red for Donny) solid popular or maple would be used.

We will have this pair we built on static display during the fest.  Tonight they are waiting for the F15 drivers to arrive in the morning.





If I have time tomorrow I'll take another shot with the F15's installed.

Steve
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Re: Steve's BIG BETSY Project
Reply #833 - 10/03/19 at 15:49:59
 
I hope you'll give them a listen to see if there is a difference in using various densities of wood for the baffles.  Poplar to maple to exotic hardwoods gives quite a large range.
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ZLC
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ZMC1
ZP3 (25th A Mods)
ZR2 (25th A Mods) -- currently not in use
CSP3 (25th A mods)
ZMA (25th A mods)
Homemade Big Betsy Speakers (F15s)
Silver Cabling
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Re: Steve's BIG BETSY Project
Reply #834 - 10/04/19 at 04:50:42
 

We will eventually figure it all out, but I predict the answer is going to be:  Good, Better, Best but within a fairly narrow window so on the surface I don't think it's going to make a lot of difference. To the ultra serious daily listener pushing the envelope at every level, then the difference would be noticeable and probably justifiable but certainly not a deal breaker because if you've never heard the exotic hardwood, you'll be tripping on how good the poplar, plywood or even MDF sounds.  Realize this speaker sounds about 3 times better than everything you put up against it, and we're now having a discussion about something that at best would make a 10% difference.

Steve

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Re: Steve's BIG BETSY Project
Reply #835 - 10/04/19 at 11:09:02
 
Really nice clean design Steve!
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Re: Steve's BIG BETSY Project
Reply #836 - 10/07/19 at 14:26:05
 
Some general thoughts about Decfest.  Since they are mostly OB focused, I decided just to put them here.

I was only there for about 22 hours and spent of lot of the time shooting the sh*t rather than in the listening room.  Still, I was able to get through most of what I wanted to do.

As always thanks to Devon, Steve and family for hosting.  The Bar-b-Q pork was delicious, and the beer selection was great.  Dan also made some tasty and smooth pumpkin soup which I was able to sample before I left.

On my list was basically to compare my 1” Big Betsy’s baffles to Steve’s mega baffles.  Evaluate the Crystal 10s, hear the F15s in Randy’s baffles, hear the Alnico version of the Betsy and measure some tubes.  I got most of it done.

As far as my baffles versus Steve’s.....wood matters.  Steve’s baffles produce a very different sound.  I listened to my baffles all week to make sure I had their sound drilled into my head, but it was an easy call.  The extra density makes for a richer, deeper sound out of these baffles.  I also sensed that the mid range was clearer.  Not sure I understand that.  

But here’s the thing.  I was trying to determine if I should double up my baffles to make them 2”.  When I came home and listened, I liked what I heard.  My baffles are more mid-range focused and a little "lighter".   Not that the bass is lacking, but its not as deep and rich as Steve's.  So I am on the fence about adding the additional layer.

We were unable to listen to Steve and Bob’s Big Baltic Birch Baffles to compare.  They had them in the wood shop, but without drivers mounted.

In terms of the Crystal 10s.  I am not sure I got the full picture of these drivers.  I heard them and did not like them at times, and at other times, felt they sounded fantastic.  

On Friday, I heard them in the big cabinets at one end of the room and in the open baffles on the other.  I wasn't crazy about them.  Then, on Saturday, I had some early morning time in the room with just a few people and essentially, set up with close to the chain I have at home - Mac-DAC-Zbit-25th and I thought they sounded really good.  Very smooth and detailed, so perhaps it was the chain on Friday.

As far as the F15s in Randy’s baffles, you don’t lose all that much and possibly gain some bass.  I attributed this to them gaining bass bounce off the floor.  On the downside, the soundstage is not as big or high as with the Big Betsy Baffles.  Some people discussed tilting them a little but
I did not hear them set up like this.

I did not get to hear the Alnico version of the Betsys (again).  These drivers keep eluding me.

The surprise of the fest for me was Randy’s dual driver OBs in his traditional baffle.  It’s a Betsy with a 10” Eminence woofer.  The sound floated above the baffles, had enough bass to keep me interested and perhaps gave the best sound stage of the fest.

Bob’s new HR-1s also sounded good to me.  I love that tweeter and they had plenty of full, low bass.

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Re: Steve's BIG BETSY Project
Reply #837 - 10/07/19 at 15:19:24
 


Hi Tom,

Thanks for the kind words about my various speaker offerings .....

I'm very happy with the "baby" 15" baffles and my new two way Betsy & Buck baffles.

One small correction ..... the original Betsy & Buck baffles have a 10" Eminence Alpha driver ..... the ones I brought to the Fest this year are "version II" and use a 12" Eminence Alpha driver.

Details ..... details .....

It was good to see you again. It would be great if more of us lived closer together.

Best wishes,
Randy

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Re: Steve's BIG BETSY Project
Reply #838 - 10/07/19 at 15:23:52
 
Hey Randy.  Sorry I got the size wrong on that one.  Did they get more play later in the Fest??

Also, I am very interested in your he-shed.  Did you detail your build somewhere on the forums???

How far from Cincy are you??
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Re: Steve's BIG BETSY Project
Reply #839 - 10/07/19 at 15:45:32
 


Hi Tom,

Yep ..... they did get some additional playing time and seemed to be well received .....

A while ago, I posted a thread about my "he shed".
It can be found here.

If you need any specific info, shoot me an email.

I live in Alexandria, KY which is just a few miles across the Ohio River in northern Kentucky. If you are ever in the neighbothood, the red carpet will be rolled out for you .....

Happy listening,
Randy

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Re: Steve's BIG BETSY Project
Reply #840 - 10/07/19 at 16:05:11
 
I'm not surprised that the ZBOBs were popular at the Fest this year.  I decided to put my HR1s back in before storing them and they lasted for one song.  They sounded great but were hobbled by low volume (92.5dB vs ~100dB) and "small sound."  I think my big room just needs the ZBOB bigness.  After listening to the ZBOB for an extended period I had gotten so use to their sound that I wasn't hearing the magic.  It's amazing how fast we set our new normal.
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Re: Steve's BIG BETSY Project
Reply #841 - 10/07/19 at 18:33:26
 
Apology in advance if this is somewhere already in this thread, but can anyone tell me the outside ring/cutout dimension on the Crystal 10 driver?  I am not seeing a spec sheet on their web site.

Not that I am thinking about building yet another speaker Wink
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Re: Steve's BIG BETSY Project
Reply #842 - 10/07/19 at 18:35:13
 
Nevermind, found it on the web site.
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Re: Steve's BIG BETSY Project
Reply #843 - 10/07/19 at 19:35:06
 
Pal, you thinking of upsizing the DNA cabinet to fit the Crystal 10? I love my DNA2s and think the 10s would be wonderful in that cabinet, sized properly. Lii pretty explicit about cabinet volume needed for it. It sounded good in his hollow box cabinet. Most music at DECFEST was played too loud for my liking and made analytical listening difficult.
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Re: Steve's BIG BETSY Project
Reply #844 - 10/07/19 at 20:04:41
 
For now, I am a committed OB guy.  I have found my woofer (Acoustic Elegance) but I am still seeking the right driver(s) for my mids and highs.

I am not dissatisfied with what I have for highs/mids (Dayton AMT / Tang Band W8-1808) but feel there could be more detail there that I am not getting.  When I heard the Crystal 10s on Saturday morning, I heard details that I haven't heard before.

I also recently sold two Decware amps so I have a little mad money in my pocket.
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Re: Steve's BIG BETSY Project
Reply #845 - 10/07/19 at 20:46:18
 
Joe: regarding 'too loud'--that would have been my guess. I listen less and less loudly as time goes by, what I love most about my systems is how wonderful they sound at moderate volumes!

The ZROCK2 was the final component I needed to have the sound just right when the volume is just right.
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Re: Steve's BIG BETSY Project
Reply #846 - 10/07/19 at 21:08:39
 
Pal, what is your power source for your Acoustic Elegance?
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Re: Steve's BIG BETSY Project
Reply #847 - 10/07/19 at 21:11:27
 
Right now the mighty 2 watt 25th Zen.  It plays very well with it.

If I do try the Crystal 10s, given the efficiency differences in the drivers, I will be using a Crown XLS 1002 I just picked up at the fest.
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Re: Steve's BIG BETSY Project
Reply #848 - 10/13/19 at 02:17:31
 

UPDATE

After studying peoples reactions to the Big Betsy and Big Betsy Jr. baffles during the fest, and after talking with Randy of Caintuck Audio, we came to the realization that A) the Big Betsys are BIG.  Not everyone can do big.  B) The Big Betsy Jr, with the Crystal 10 are a nice size but are lighter in the bass and require a ZROCK2.  The drivers are also nearly a grand more than the F15 drivers used in the Big Betsy.  When you add both of those factors in, the price well exceeds a Big Betsy with the F15's...

We realized that we need a third baffle... the magic bullet, the best of both sort of thing that would actually cost a bit LESS than the Big Betsy, not a lot more.

So this weekend I am prototyping a similar size baffle to the Big Betsy Jr., but with an F15 driver !!!

If this works as well as we know it will, it should be by far the most popular seller of the three models.  Since there are now going to be three models, it changes things.  My previous model numbers, ZBOB and ZBOBJR, no longer make sense.  

I have decided to make the Big Betsy with the F15 drivers   the model ZF15L, (Zen F15 Large)

I have decided to make the Big Betsy Jr, with the Crystal 10 drivers, the model ZC10M (Zen Crystal 10 Medium)

I have decided to make the new baffle with the F15 drivers, the model ZF15M, (Zen F15 Medium)

This makes a lot more sense and leaves room for alternate drivers in the future that will go into either the Large or Medium baffles.



I am making this new "medium" sized baffle 2-5/8 inches wider than the Crystal 10 Baffle as well as a little taller.  This will better accommodate the 15 inch driver.

I am anxious to hear how this compares to the other two as I'm sure you are as well so stay tuned ; )

Steve

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Re: Steve's BIG BETSY Project
Reply #849 - 10/13/19 at 04:29:04
 
I do not understand the sonic effect of the sides being curved, but I wonder if there could be a benefit to making the top edge curved. Either a single curve like the sides, or a multiple curve like a pair of camel humps.

Me thinking out loud again,
Brian
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