Andy, That is the only way to do it!

Archie,

The silver banana jacks on our speaker wire fit perfectly in the hole so that means any banana jack will also.

Steve

This is how I connect my BBs to styx wire with silver bananas.  Pretty solid contact.

Cardas makes solid copper versions.... no plating of any kind - you're responsible for cleaning them occasionally.

and if you want some solid copper "split tensioned banana's" C14500 93% IACS Tellurium Copper - go to Douglas Connections and get some of the Furez - best banana I've ever seen and/or used in my life.  These banana's "stay tight"... no matter how many times plugged/unplugged and their is no outer spring barrel to get loose and/or break off like always happens with that type of banana.

https://douglasconnection.com/product/furez-tstsb40np-bare-copper-banana-plug-co...

you can get them in screw on or crimp/solder and with or without a barrel to dress them up.
They're also available in Silver if you subscribe to that camp.

So this will be an interesting side theme...  having become very fond of the Lii Audio Crystal 10 drivers in my open baffle design, I jumped at the opportunity when Lii Audio wished to attend this years DECFEST2019 but since they are in China they instead wished to send their flagship speakers as their ambassadors.  Lii Audio is a small company about the size of Decware with similar goals about hi-fi, so we have embraced their creations and are happy to share them with our customers at this years fest!   

If you've been reading this thread you are up to speed on my impressions of this 10 inch driver.  It was no mistake designing a high-mass hardwood open baffle for it.  The transparency is reference grade at any price league.

So now we have the same driver, in a cabinet that was designed by the owner and designer of the Crystal 10 driver (and F15 driver) so of course we HAD to hear that!



As you can see they make the Big Betsys look small, as well as all the other speakers in the room!  These are probably at least 10 cubic foot cabinets with a very clever design.  The Crystal 10 drivers have an fs of 30Hz and in these giant cabinets they can simply crush you.  100dB of 30HZ at 1 watt without even trying. The bass is so big and deep, as you would hope from a 10 inch driver in such a large cabinet. They certainly don't disappoint.

It's starting to twist my head a bit as they break-in...  The Big Betsy has more hit and bigger bass presence with the F15 driver, but this cabinet has almost an octave lower bass and it's flat bass, not rolled off. It can simply wreck your room with ease and you won't even see the cones moving.  

At first I was somewhat put off by the large size of these speakers, but the sound actually more than justifies it. There is no audiophile or audiogearhead that these wouldn't set a new standard for, like the Big Betsy but delightfully different. The bass is insane. It's a blast back to 1950's when giant speakers and or infinite baffles were popular.

This speaker is proof that real bass comes from speed and cabinet size, not power handling or multiple drivers. When you hear these, especially after either attending the RMAF or watching video reports of the show, you will just shake your head. Flashbacks of the giant speakers, with subs, and massive amplifiers and giant cables everywhere simply sound like a poor impostor for these. A single 100dB driver is kicking some real ass as it outperforms those huge 5 way speakers loaded with 84dB drivers.  It's a contest that isn't even a contest, and the fact that you can beat the high power high dollar world with a 2 watt Zen Triode Amplifier and these speakers makes me happier than shit.

Happier than shit because it proves that the low power Zen Triode amplifiers are actually better performance in all regions than high power tube or solid state.  The bass is tight and natural with WAY more hit and spank.  Trust me, it's like a different planet.  If you go to Mars you better abandon your earthly habit and conceptions because nothing is the same... it's like that when you hear this.

Real 100dB full-range drivers with no peaks and no weaknesses are thank God back to stay thanks to Lii Audio.  I consider it as serious a contribution to serious hi-end as Decware.  Drivers like these we can do great things with!  The designer's cabinet sets a nice benchmark that will be hard to beat.  I mean seriously, this makes hi-fi speakers sound stupid, it really does.  94dB is what it takes to really enjoy 2 watts without feeling restricted.  6dB on top of that feels like you just inherited 500 watts of the cleanest power you ever heard and now you can play the speakers so loud that pictures can literally fall of the walls!  

Another bonus of the large cabinets, is that the bass is not pressure centric.  At very low volumes the bass drops and is still easily heard and felt more so than most speakers in fact.  Very realistic when you can have such depth and scale at such a low volume.

How many hi-fi speakers do you know that can accurately reproduce a subwoofer better than the subwoofer itself?

Fun stuff, and it's real. I know I have to say that because I sound like hyperbole.  rust me this shit is going to re-arrange about 95 people's heads at this years DECFEST2019.

Steve

Me too!  However as I set here listening to these drivers ease in and relax in these large cabinets it actually has me questioning the OB which is pretty impressive so soon in the game so I would predict that they are similarly equals but in different ways which is to say each has it's own strengths but are in exactly the same league.

Steve

Speaking of which, will you be doing a teaser video of the Crystal 10 speakers prior to the fest???

Either my brain is adapting or the Big Betsy's have reached maturity.  Bass is so sharp, everything is very clear and the sound stage seems deeper and more focused.

I've had a couple of mind blowing fest moments over the years - imperials with your OBs and zen amp (big cabinet bass), the OTL amp (soundstage).  Generally one every fest or so.  This year could be a double or triple mind blower for sure.

I placed an order for some nice Cardas copper binding posts:  https://www.moon-audio.com/cardas-ccbp-l-binding-post.html#tab-label-description...

And some copper Furez banana plugs:  https://www.avoutlet.com/av-cables-connectors/av-connectors/speaker/furez-tst-w2...   These will crimp on and soldier to my solid 14 ga wires (they come in various sizes).  They are so reasonably priced, I bought eight to do both ends of my wires.

I checked the F15 driver binding post mounting point and they are drilled at 1/4" so I'll ream to 5/16" for the new posts. The existing wires look long enough to soldier -- just barely.

As a side note, since we are destine to make and sell these amazing speakers, we are going to be changing the names to avoid any conflicts or confusion with Wild Burro Audio's 8 inch "Betsy" driver.  

I was originally going to change it to BOB.  Big Open Baffle.  But certainly someone is using that who has just not registered it.  Then I figured, well, Zen Big Open Baffle.  ZBOB.  I liked it at first, along with ZBOB Jr., but then I realized no-one is going to want to spend 1000's on an exotic high mass open baffle called ZBOB.  It would be like writing ZBOB on the hood of a Lamborghini.

I have something far more fitting in mind, and am researching the name and the marks now. As far as I am concerned, at 100dB of warm liquid sound, I wouldn't care if these baffles were the only speaker we made under the Decware brand.  They're that good.  So stay tuned, when I get the name and the mark finalized I will announce it here.

Steve

P.S. I'm pretty sure that I've cracked your code. I bet the name that you have settled on is "BAOB". Which stands for "Big Ass Open Baffle". Am I right, or am I right?

Well I finally got up the guts to see how the “speakers to be named later” compared to my previous speaker setup.

My previous speakers setup consists of a Dayton AMT pro4, Tang Band W8-1808 and Eminence Alpha 15A in a 1.5” Baltic Birch open baffle.  Crossover is a cap for the tweeter and coils for the other two drivers.  

I also have the two 15” Dayton Reference subs in ~3cf mdf cabinets run by dual Crown amps running in bridged mode putting out about 700 watts per amp.  Combined witht he OBs, this is about $2K in drivers/amp/baffle/cabinets/xovers.  

Also, I have been experimenting with driver combinations and baffle shapes for these speakers for about 2 years to get them where I like them.

The “speakers formerly know as Big Betsys” cost me about $625.  I haven’t applied a finish yet, but I have about 8 hours into the build.  A lot of that was just figuring out the cuts.  Depending on how much difference I perceive in my baffles vs Steve’s, I may double up the wood in my build for another $175.

Anyway, I am happy to report it wasn’t a complete rout.  My previous speakers held up well, but there were some key differences.

Presence: I immediately noticed that my old speakers were very much “you are there” versus “they are here”.  I like both, but the BBs seemed more intimate.

Volume: For my previous OBs (about 94db) I ran them at about -4 to 0db on the TEAC with the Zbit at about 2-3 oclock and the 25th Zen wide open.  

With the BBs, keeping the Zbit and amp the same I typically run -14db on the TEAC and that is too loud on the recently mastered stuff.

Hit/Bass:  My old speakers don’t have the “hit” of BBs.  I immediately switched on the subs.  I got good low end bass but I felt it more in my butt than my chest. With the BBs, I feel it more in my upper body.

Switching on the subs was an interesting exercise because with the old speakers, the subs make a big difference.  With the Betsy’s they don’t and I figured out why.  They can’t keep up with the BBs.  The BBs are so efficient that I can’t get comparable volume out of the subs, even with the Crowns cranked.

Open Sound:  Here is where my old speakers have the edge.  The baffle width is three tier, with the bass driver tier about 22” wide and then about 12” for the mid and only 7” for the tweeter.  So there is less surface area to block the sound waves coming off the walls behind the speakers.  This combined with the “you are there” sound of speakers leads to a more open sound stage.  Keep in mind that the BBs are huge and my room is small (12X16).  And in no way do the BBs have a small sound stage.  Quite the opposite.

Detail: My old speakers were simply not a clear as the BBs.  They sound just a slight bit congested.  I got used to this throughout the course of the evening, but I think when I put the BBs back in, I will notice it big time.

So my old OBs are not headed to the trash bin, but the efficiency combined with the clarity and hit of the BBs make them a more engaging listen.  Then you read through my description above to see what I had to cobble together to get the sound out of my previous speakers and I think the choice becomes very clear for the non-DIY masochist

I can tell from Geno’s video that the Crystal 10s will “wreck” me as Steve says.  I think they are going to give me what I have been looking for in speakers like the Pure Audio Project and Voxativ.  I can’t wait to hear them.

My experience with the Crystals is very similar to Steve’s. I started out using mid-bass baffles and a sub (instead of a Zrock).  I have finally realized, and as they have broken in more, that they are better with no supplement. Cleaner. The only tweak is a Zstage with phono and Zbit with digital. My amp is a SE84UFO (with 25th mods) and the Crystals are scary good. I can’t imagine how great the 25th Anniversary Zen must sound with them. I guess that eventually I’m gonna have to find that out...

Geno,

Damn!!!!! Those look and sound great. I think I'm going to in for a real treat at Decfest, and most likely a lighter wallet😆.

HK

Geno,
Nice video, thanks for putting it up!
Your room looks great with those in it!
Scott

Hey Geno, what are the songs in your two youtube videos?

Thanks Geno.

I put the Big Betsy’s back in after swapping them out for my other OBs.  I was instantly impressed all over again.  I stand by what I said a few posts ago but can safely add there is better overall coherency to the BB that I’m missing in my other OBs.  Also I think my other OBs have to be driven hard to approach the fullness of sound that I get with the BBs.

I am getting some new bass drivers today that have been on order for over 4 months (well before Steve turned us on to the BB).  I’ll put them in my other OBs and see how they sound.  I’ll run those speakers while I finish the Big Betsy’s.  I ordered and received some Danish oil.  I also made the additional wood braces/supports for the bottom of the baffles out of red oak so I’ll install those.

I'll chime in with my Watco (Danish Oil) anecdote.  I was oiling my unfinished butcher block counter tops many years ago and I wanted the best oil finish for max protection.  I used cheap linseed oil on the bottoms and expensive Watco on the tops.  I got a ring of linseed oil on the tops but I didn't worry about it since I figured the Watco would just blend with it.  It turned out the the linseed oil sealed out the Watco and after many coats of Watco (following the directions carefully) the first time water got on it, it raised the grain.  I called Watco to inquire and they admitted that their product was "basically linseed oil."  Yeah, and at 3 times the cost!

"Danish Oil" is a scam.  Linseed or Tung are the real deal.  If you want a more water resistant finish, just add 1/3 part polyurethane with 1/3 thinner and 1/3 linseed and use like a straight oil.

Boiled Linseed does give an amber tone to the wood.

I just buy what's in the hardware store.  Many years ago I'd buy it in 5 gallon cans.  Those were the days when I learned how combustive a wet rag could be.  I walked by a smoking rag sitting on top of a pile of my wood flooring.  Oops.  

LO15 with a simple coil, crossed at 250hz.  I think you could easily go higher.

Seems louder than its stated sensitivity.  Could just be a good match with my 25th.

Based on Steve's account and what I heard in Geno's YouTube videos, I would say yes.  The people with the driver might offer a better opinion.

You could also consider Randy's smaller baffle for the L15.  It just depends on budget.

Did you see his comparison earlier in the thread?  Or are you saying you did?

The really hard part:

UPDATE

Bob Ziegler is here and we have the baltic birch to build both the Big Betsy and the Big Betsy Jr.  I think we will probably dive into it after breakfast tomorrow morning.

Today all day and even as I write this, we have been in the center of the what is presently the largest storm on the planet.  It's been a little hairy as we were almost hit by lightning this morning, and getting nearly flooded complete with near tornado misses... Bob's just loving it.



This is the real time lighting map as of minutes ago.

Anyway, I'll take some pictures of this new Baltic Birch Big Betsy Build as things progress and post them tomorrow night.  Should be fun!

Steve

I hope you have no storm damage!

Brian