Look at the time stamp of this message and the last message... 30 minutes have passed and only less than 2 minutes of the song I'm listening to have passed.  Explain this.

Steve

Steve, the amp is looking real nice. Looking at the color of the top plate I was trying to figure out what wooden base would look good with it. I am not a fan of painted wood but I am thinking Madagascar ebony might look real nice with that top plate. Can't wait to see it all together and some wiring pics.

maddog07 wrote on 03/22/18 at 18:25:14:


I believe he is/was primarily using a new version of the DNA Horns that are not available yet.  Also had great results with Randy's open baffles.

So the benefits of the 25th anniversary design will only be experienced in a properly treated dedicated listening room? Wife and 2 year old over here make that a no-go.....

How would this amp work with Martin-Logan CLX's. I have been using a Sophia Baby with acceptable results.

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I was wondering the same thing -- at least as far as a serious upgrade to other Decware amps.  In the "EGG" thread Steve seemed to indicate the same thing with respect to a treated room.  I don't doubt that the 25th anniversary amp will be special but I try to read between the lines and keep some perspective.  Steve's enthusiasm can outrun my aural discrimination and my listening environment.  

In my world the sound of amplifiers are judged on two things:  How they sound and how they image.  

The later is largely overlooked by most audiophiles because they do not have the luxury of pulling their speakers out away from the walls and creating a room where the stereo is the focus of the room ~ not an accessory in the room.  

I blame this two things: Overtaxation and ignorance. The first is self explanatory, the second simply comes from not realizing what is truly possible with respect to imaging and sound stage. You have to experience it first to really know.  

I do not consider great left to right placement imaging. A TV set can do that. Imaging is the perception of sounds in a 3D space defined by it's width, height and depth.  

Now even against a wall a pair of speakers on a good amp will have a certain degree of imaging, but it's really no different than video in so much as it's mostly 2D.  

I have made certainly one of the world's very best 3D amplifiers and most people will experience it in 2D.  For this reason some of magic of this amp will never be appreciated or experienced which led me to conclude that because of the price increase over a SE84UFO2 it may not make a lot of sense for those who can't match it with appropriate speakers or a room where you can pull the speakers out away from the wall by several feet.

We have a solution for those of you who are bumming because your room doesn't "qualify".  It's called the Betsy Baffle and it can be pulled out and placed well into ANY room because they are small and light weight with handles.  THEY will create the sound stage and 3D experience I am talking about but sadly those who have never experienced them find it too big a leap of faith to try them, which is why they didn't bother to watch the video on that page.  I would however recommend Randy's new baffles with the dual drivers or have him set you up with a passive subwoofers that the Zen can also drive.

https://www.decware.com/newsite/Caintuck.html

Steve

Overtaxation - if we all had more money we'd probably have more options in the way of a listening room or at least bigger rooms!

Steve: overtaxation, ignorance and a third thing: family/spousal concerns. I have had a rooms where the stereo was the focus, and then I got married. . . this happened to me twice. Sure, I guess if I could make more money or keep all my money and not pay taxes I could have a dedicated listening room again but to be honest music is a part of my life and not a separate thing--I love music in my living area and to live with music, a separate room was never quite right for me.

I know I'm not alone in being challenged this way. I do get some 3D effects from these amps . . . I know that I could get more with a better setup but I'm not likely ever to have a better set up and the SOUND of these amps and what imaging I get are so spectacular that I have to experience this new "version" . . . and I will.

I think we should get together a little fund to help Juan/busterfree get a pair of the 25th Anniversary Monoblocks as he has one of the last pair PRE the Anniversary option. He could then make a DIRECT comparison between the two. Steve can and he could. . . .

I don't personally think a treated dedicated room is a prerequisite to enjoy the wonderful nature of this 25th Anniversary series. I'll find out soon.

I am currently waiting for another round of binding posts to show up so I can make a final choice and I am waiting for another gold plating set up to arrive so I can make sure all the gold matches.

Will be doing the anniversary mod on four more SE84UFO3's next week so hopefully after that we can complete the build on the new Anniversary amp!



Today for my first official weekend of Spring I am enjoying a snow blizzard which has forced me to stay inside and listen to the amplifier all day. I know I've mentioned it in the past, but the sound I'm getting right now is 98% as good as what I get around midnight! It is so wonderful to be able to get this sound during the day. It teaches me two things. First that my theory that part of the problem was radiation from the sun and the other part is dirty power was wrong. Second, that the Zen's new power supply is getting superior results compared to a stock Zen plugged into a 5K power regenerator.  

As solely the result of this amplifier, my serious listening time will at least double and no longer at the expense of sleep. This drops the price of the ownership in half since I'll be listening to it twice as much. (Cost of Amp divided by hours used).  

Steve

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Remember to add back in the cost of the extra electricity and tubes to run the amp twice as long!  Also the loss of income!  

Dave, if the SuperZen and the ERRx are coupling well, I can imagine the SE84UFO2-25 would be as good a fit. . . . Don't see why they wouldn't be dissimilar in power output/speaker driving.

Cool. There are so many ways to skin an audio system. And so much is subjective. Enjoy.

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Should be easily offset by needing less pharmaceuticals : )


Steve

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Touche!  

I sure don't remember if I asked this already or if I even read a response, but is there the option of an upgrade of SE84UFO to the 25th Year Anniversary model, or is the upgrade possible only for the monoblocks?  If the former, what would be the cost around?

Thanks,

Alper

Thanks Lon...

So, I've been busy with work, life, health issues...fun stuff.  But I never really got a chance to post about my visit to Decware a few weeks ago, and listening to the 25th Anniversary prototype.

First off, for those that don't know (long story short), I have an original Zen amp from 1998, I think I'm serial number 47 or something. I wasn't fully happy with it and brought it to Steve to "do whatever he wanted", since he knows me well enough what I like. It seemed a serendipitous nudge, as my early Zen Amp reminded Steve of how things started, and he was able to meld 25 years of knowledge into my old amp and bring it up to date.  After the sticker shock of the upgrade (I did tell him to do whatever) I settled down to listen to the amp and it is really something special.  I'm currently listening on a pair of 91db "El Camino" speakers, and I also have a pair of MG-944 speakers that I haven't used for a few months.

So I stopped into Decware to return the Tape Tour kit since the VHS deck died, and I said to Steve...so...can I hear it?? (nodding towards the listening room and the 25th Anniversary prototype).



Now, my past few visits to check something out Steve was working on...well, I didn't like what I heard and I said something. Steve's always told me to trust my gut, and if I hear something that sounds off, say something.

So Steve warmed up the amp, and I sat down for a listen. It immediately sounded like my amp...like *just* like my amp, but I wasn't as drawn in as I am with my little Zen. I thought it was the music so I hopped on his computer and dialed up a couple tunes. Nope still the same. It was driving me nuts, it was so close, but not quite right. So I spent like 5 minutes rambling in circles trying to describe what I was hearing and explain to Steve in hopes he would figure it out. As I'm rambling he casually in his slow and thoughtful way starts walking around the shop, moving stuff around picking up tubes, putting them down again and nodding on occasion. Finally he finds what he's looking for, walks over to the prototype and swaps a regulator tube.



I resume my position on the comfy couch, cuddling with the cat, and the music starts. Then holy hell, it was like my amp, plus, plus, plus. It was so fast/sharp that it felt like I went from a half-step removed from the music to pressed right up against the squeaky clean glass. By comparison it was maybe too much, to fast, too....I kind of likened it to when you have a transistor amp that measures .000001% perfect in everything - it's amazing, but sharp to the point of being lifeless.  

It was a weird experience - Steve explained it that when you change the regulator tube, it changes the voltage, and we went from dreamy soft/slow to max voltage hardness/speed. He seemed to like the really dreamy sound, but to me while it did make things comfey and smooth out rough edges, I felt it was not as engaging as my amp. Then the other end of the spectrum was like having the speaker wires connected directly to my brain...it was just a bit too much.  We kind of laughed at this and decided a regulator tube in the middle of the two would probably be perfect for my listening style.

So now, not only can we voice the amp with the tubes, but with the regulator tube we can voice the *speed* of the amp! This is just flat out amazing to me, and not subtle mind you.

Now, this is completely my speculation/opinion after spending many, many hours with my modded pre-prototype Zen, then spending maybe an hour with the prototype Anniversary Zen (I hear in my head calling it Anni); I believe that 90% of the sound is the voicing Steve has done with the UFO transformers and speed adjustment by reworking the power supply, as well as the kick ass caps in the amp. I felt that the prototype has the same sound-DNA as mine, which pleases me greatly as I truly believe it's the pinnacle of this amps voicing. That last 10% is what the regulator tubes bring in cleaning the power and making the amp sound more DC battery like vs 120v hash. Add to that you can dial in the speed of the Anniversary amp and maybe it's an 80%/20% thing - but still, I didn't feel like my amp was lacking and I needed to sell everything to get the 25th Zen. To me, that means he's got it right!

Thinking a little more about this as I'm typing it all out - it reminds me of when I first got the PS Audio P-10 Power plant. When I put my Mystery Amp on it, I was like...meh, maybe I hear a 2-3% improvement...maybe. But then I put my little Zen amp on it and I'm like damn! That's quite an improvement!  So maybe my P-10 is helping me bridge the gap between mine and the 25th and the regulator tubes. But you all don't have to spend an *Extra* $5500 and get even more filtering and versatility baked into the amp!!

So yeah, I'm very pleased with what I heard. It sounds like my amp and then some. If you are considering purchasing the 25th and it fits what you need - I wholeheartedly say go for it, you will be very pleased.

~Eric~
AKA
The Lonely Raven

Another update in this ongoing diary of the Zen Triode amplifier...

I just finished the anniversary mod on a set of SE84UFO3 amplifiers and am listening to them as I write this.  All I can say is that tonight's realization is that the shock of what you hear is never going to wear off.  It's the first time you've heard the amp each time you listen to it. It's a clunky way of saying that you will never get used to it. Spoiled by it...yes... used to it no.  

With this being I think the 3rd set of these I've done and spent time with I have to say I'm getting inspired.  Maybe someday we can have a pair of 25th anniversary monos in a designed from scratch chassis like the SE84UFO25.

Waiting for damn parts is maddening.  Especially when they are a week late and then you find out the order was stalled out in cyberspace.  It's probably another signal.  The mass sampling of binding posts I'm accumulating just aren't bringing anything to the table that is making me want to change from what we've always used with the exception of the gold plating.  The nice thing about doing your own plating is that you can make the plating so thick that it would well surpass anything that is being mass produced.  The difference in a dipping time of 30 seconds and 33 seconds over the cost of a run to a large company is hugely significant. Getting equipment that can regulate the time tightly is essential for production.  In my shop, I can dip the damn part for 5 minutes if I feel like it. This way I can use 24K gold instead of alloys.  

Trying to type this post while the amps are playing is just about as difficult as standing upright in a hurricane. The depth is intoxicating. I keep getting sucked to the sweet spot. BTW, I am using a pair of 6N5P input tubes to test these mono's which I frequently do. Fact is, I think unless you go NOS 7DJ8, a good testing 6N5P is going to be hard to beat.  It sounds like a 6N1P with twice the resolution. ZERO edge or dryness or strain. Neutral texture. Dimensionality is probably better.  It's a great tube.

Tomorrow I will be taking Lon's freshly built SE84UFO3's and doing the same mod on them as was done on these I'm listening to tonight. On those I have to figure out a way to install a treble control without choking the chicken...  I've never put a treble control on one of our SET amplifiers before, only the pentode designs, so it will be an interesting journey through the hyper-belt while trying not to get smashed by a meteor. Don't worry I'm a skilled pilot but the ship may need paint work before we get to goal.

The music from these amplifiers is so compelling. I'm pretty sure that if you want to reproduce it exactly, the main ingredients are going to be A) a good DAC with balanced XLR outputs. B) a ZBIT balanced XLR to RCA transformer to go between the amplifier and DAC. This will insure the imaging and the animation which is so essential. C) a pair of 94dB or higher speakers that have a full sounding bass which is to say no active subwoofers. Passive subs are welcome because they are driven by the same amplifier.

That brings me to a point about this amplifier. There is nothing the amp would like better than to drive a pair of 15 or 18 inch low frequency drivers in parallel with a nice set of full range crossoverless speakers that don't have an abundance of base on their own. You would think .... OHHH GOD, the amp will die trying to drive a pair or even four 18 inch subs at the same time as the main speakers... it will be a disaster.  The reality is that because the 4 18 inch drivers cover the bottom octave from 20 Hz to 40 Hz that the full range speaker does not, the music (energy) has a place to go, and it does. Without those 18 inch base drivers that energy reflects back to the amplifier because it had now where to manifest. This blocks power.

Funny you mentioned the Arcturus, Lon. As I was going through my photos of my Decware visit (above), I remembered Steve mentioned the Type 80 tube, and scanned eBay to see what was available, and ordered an Arcturus last night...along with the appropriate adapter of course.

I don't really hear big differences in rectifier tubes on my Zen amp. But then I haven't really played the tube swap game on the little Zen since getting the upgrade - it's just been so tasty since Steve worked on it that I don't want to muck with it!

lon, ditto.  usually the first tube i roll on my decware gear.

Help!

Noob follow up question to Steve’s recent post.  I have been a bit nervous about buying a low powered amp because I was a bit worried about a lack of bass when I am listening to 70’s rock etc.  Steve’s post seemed to address this.   Passive subs.    I have never set up a sub in a two channel system before.  How do you wire in the subs?  I was assuming these amps had two binding posts for the speakers.   Is there a way to wire a sub and a speaker to each binding post?  Please throw a noob a bone on this one.  It may help push me over the hump t actually dive in a get my first decware SET!

Love the forum.  Thanks all!

Ok. Am I seeing it correctly.  Two sets of binding posts on the decware speakers.   One set of wires going from the sub to the decware speakers.  Another set of wires going from the decware speakers to the amp?

Am I seeing that correctly.  

Thanks for the link!

I have one active sub hooked up to my Zen amp.  The speaker wires to my main speakers are connected with spades and run full range.  The sub is connected to the same amp binding posts using banana plugs.