My birthday is coming up in 2 weeks - I'm thinking about getting some tubes for the ZMA to play with. Anyone do any tube rolling in the ZMA yet?

I'm thinking about some Cryoset  Super Cryo 6N1P-EV

http://www.cryoset.com/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=251&osCsid=8ead1fd8e...


I might be able to swing a quad of Gold Lion KT-66. But I don't think I can afford both pre- and power tubes right now. So I'm just pinging the family to see what others have had good luck with. Either way, I'll update this thread with some thoughts on tubes I've tried once their burnt in a bit, whatever I get.

It's funny most of us ZMA lovers are standing pat with the tubes.  I simply didn't think anything was wrong with the sound.  I also wanted to drive the quality of my preamp higher so I put nice NOS tubes in that.  The sound I'm getting now along with a couple of cable swaps is so good changing tubes on the ZMA hasn't entered my mind.

I'm open to be persuaed however.   If you try something that you really like, we are all ears.

I'm considering trying some of these.

http://www.upscaleaudio.com/matsushita-national-pcc88-7dj8/

Yes, Steve did say the 6N23P-EV was the tube for the ZMA. I've already spoken with him - and he says in my case I should try out the 6N1P. Maybe some 6DJ8 as well. I don't recall all he said as when we talk in person we talk at length and tend to wander, and on the phone we're super brief and to the point - that along with my terrible memory, well, I tend to only retain key points. LOL

I've got the Nationals and the Super Cryo 6N1P on the way. If I find myself going back to stock tubes like I kept doing with the little Zen amp, then I'll flip these tubes in the forums for only a few $$ loss. It wouldn't be the first time I tried something I didn't like, only to move on. That's part of why I'm pinging the family to see what others have experienced. I really think the ZMA is great as is, I'm just curious.  :)

I decided to do some tube rolling and have basically followed Steve's advice in the ZMA user guide. Try a different brand of KT66's and 7DJ8's in place of the 6N23P-EV's.

I decided to go with a quad of cryo Telefunken PCC88/7DJ8's from Upscale Audio. I have a Telefunken E88CC/6922 in my Taboo Mk3 and am very happy with it. The PCC88/7DJ8's are yet to arrive and based on previous experience it will be a few weeks yet.

For the KT66's, after some deliberation, I've gone with Harma-Cryo KT66-Retro's from Watford Valves here in the UK. I suspect they're re-badged Gold Lion KT66's that have been put through a rigorous testing, grading, burn-in and matching process. They arrived this morning.

If I'd heard the Harma KT66's before I'd ordered the Telefunken PCC88's I might not have ordered the PCC88's. The Harma's sounded good straight out of the box. There was nothing wanting. A superb valve that make's the Tung-Sol's sound course and unrefined by comparison.

Looks like Watford will ship to the US - so that's an option for us.

OK, so I went a little overboard, but I felt I'd treat myself at least a little for my birthday...I'll just be paying for it later.

I went with a quad Cryo Golden Lion KT66, a pair of the Super-Cryo 6N1P,  and a pair of those National 6JD8.

I also have some lightly used 6JD8 in my stash from trying them out on the Zen amp - they were a bit dry there, but worth trying in the ZMA. I just doubt they are balanced and all that, so who knows if they are a good example to put into the ZMA.

Re: pairs - yes - I'd need to ask Steve which does what (damn faulty memory of mine), but the outside tubes do something different than the tubes between the KT66. One set is an input tube, and the other I think is maybe a drive tube or splits the signal to the KT66 or something. Like I said, I don't recall, so don't quote me. I just know they do different things.

Plus, I couldn't afford quads of input tubes and wanted to try two different sets. So this is my compromise. I'll clarify more once I get the tubes and ask Steve what the difference between those preamp tubes is (or he'll post here to clarify).

Seriously, sometimes I wish I brought a tape recorder when I talk with Steve. He imparts so much information on me when we talk, and I'm really good with understanding concepts, but specific details often get lost. It's just the way my brain works unfortunately. If I actually had a decent memory, my IQ would jump 20 points....

Quote:


LOL - yes exactly!

So, I pulled out my box of "audiophile" tubes - which is everything that isn't slated for guitar amp use. Right on top I see a pair of 6DJ8 with GE logos, but the notes with the tubes says Telefunken! So I've popped these into the position between the KT66 and it sounds great. But then my setup has sounded exceptional lately - so I can't place if the Telefunken are really making any difference. I really need to do some A/B testing at listening volume, but can't do that for a few days.

Yeah, it's probably going to be a while. I forgot I'm away for 3 days for a wedding in Brianne's family this next weekend. Plus I think I need to burn some of these NOS tubes in before I can really judge them. I'm not sure how long that takes for these preamp tubes to bloom.

Those cryo'd 6N1Ps are going to take quite a few hour to bloom!

Charnwood,

I have seen a few different Telefunken PCC88s, and suspect there are more. One is Siemens made, which I have a pair of, the other...not sure, but both of mine needed some burnin to clarify and solidify the bass, so I suppose it is possible this could be the case for yours.

Also, comparing PCC88s in general, I think you will find them more extended feeling on top than 6N23Ps. An open, detailed, and  textured sound is characteristic of PCC88/7DJ8s in my experience even though they all have their own overall character.

I have been using some Miniwatt labelled early 60's Amperex PCC88s in my Torii MKIV with Gold Lion KT66. These are pretty warm and deep for the tube type, and are sounding great here.

I do favor OB3s though, which are more open and less dense than OA3s, and there is a bass tightening/reducing switch on the Torii. No bias adjustment here though. I wonder what happens if you lower the bias on the Harmas?

The Harmas will continue to refine also based on my Genalex...

I just ordered some National PCC88's. Thanks Charnwood, LR an will. I was told too...that these will be magic with Tong-Sol KT66's. ....extension on top that I like. I do also have a quad of the 23P's Cryo put away as well.

I have Speakers to break in and my P3 continues to burn in... . Then, I will put the National's in.

Listening Room:
Room Treatments from Michael Green & Home Brew
Sony as Transport
Illuminati D-60 (.5 meter)
Chord Chordette QuteHD DAC ---~or~
Audio Alchemy front-end/Revelation Audio Labs Prophecy Cryo-Silver i2s
Kimber Select KS1030 IC RCA (.75 meter)
Decware CSP3 w/Jupiter Caps
Kimber Select KS1030 IC RCA (.5 meter)
Decware Zen Mystery Amplifier
Kimber Select KS3035 Speaker Cable
Acoustic Zen Adagio Speakers
XLO Pro Power Cords to CSP3 & ZMA
PS Audio P3 Power Plant / Pangea AC-9SE from wall to P3

Decware SE84CS (w/NOS Svetlana SV83's from the 1980's-not the New Sensor knock-offs) & Decware Super Zen CKC...when SE Pentodes run in Triode/Decware Style...needs to be in the System!

Decware 6C33C SET Mono-blocks.....pending 2015

Yes I can only compare charcteristic qualities of tubes not having a ZMA. But I have done a lot of that! In this context though, there is an electronic difference between the MKIII and MKIV to the inputs, and this does seem to effect the sound of all inputs, including PCC88s. They seem bigger and fuller in general in the MKIV, but still have the open, textured quality I love.

I wonder what Steve says about PCC88 sound in the Mystery amp. It may be that the voicing choices, the power to the inputs is also different than a Torii MKIV...???

That the Telefunkens sound great with the Tungsol KT66 in Charnwood's setting, and thick with Harma/Gold Lions.....And likewise LRs first impressions with Gold Lions and GE telefunkens....seems like this could be a borderline.

I remember when I sent Steve some unburned in cryo'd 6N23Ps to check out some years ago (and me with bass issues) he said something close to: no wonder you like them, they don't have a lot of bass! On listening to them after he sent them back, I realized the bass does develop over time, as the pair I was using was the same tube but well burned in, and had more complete and musical bass. But I have not compared them directly to other types myself. Charnwood's and LR's first impressions with Gold Lions seem to support less bass from the 6N23Ps though.

Like Stone found....From the Mystery Amp manual:

"Due to the direct coupling between the two smaller tubes we recommend they be of the same type and be matched from side to side. 6N23P is a dual triode, so actually two tubes in a single bottle, which is why it’s desirable to have both halves of the tubes match. If you can’t find 4 matched tubes like this, you can get by with two matched pairs. Simply make tube location A11 and location B11 match. Then do the same for A12 and B12."

Looks like the front one, 12, is described as the input, and 11, between the power tubes, as a phase inverter. It would be interesting to try alternate tubes in one position with stock in the other, then compare them to the opposite arrangement...see what phase does and what input does!

Lots of warning about discharging the caps before tube rolling too, especially for the OA3s.

Unlike the MKIV where the OA3s filter the power to the Power tubes, and OC2s filter the inputs, best I could tell from the manual, it looks like the OA3s filter the inputs on the ZMA, also saying there are not alternatives to the OA3.

I look forward to you all's impressions and experiments with burn in!

I had some good-new/bad-news last night.

I got the Nationals in, and had an hour or two before Brianne got home, so I figured I'd play with the 6N1P and Nationals.

Well, I'm pulling the preamp tubes out of the boxes, the KT66 were already installed the other night. The Nationals slip out of their boxes no big deal, then I'm trying to pinch and pull the 6N1P out of their boxes, and one POPS on me!! It popped like it was a fragile glass Xmas ornament!

In my 30+ years of dabbling in tubes, I've never had anything like this happen...now I'm a bit clumsy, and I have strong guitar player hands...but I've never pinched a tube to death! So I quickly E-mail Ron at Cryoset - sent him a couple close up photos of the popped tube on my kitchen counter where I have enough light for a camera phone photo...and the short version, he basically said I dropped it on the granite counter, it's my problem. It sounded like a very curt piss off. I told him I'm sorry that he's probably had to deal with weirdos in the past, but I wouldn't have bothered him with this if I didn't feel this was my fault, and it's too bad he's not going to help me. The only response I got was "send them back". So we'll see how he handles this.

I've never really had cryo'd tubes before - but I understand how the process works as I've had many other things cryo'd over the years. In fact, many of the tube stores use a shop I used some 20+ years ago having Porsche parts and guitar parts cryo'd. (yes, I was way ahead of the curve there). But I don't know how glass envelops handle the cryo treatment-and asked Ron if it sometimes makes the tube fragile...no real response to this of course.

So anyways, the 6N1P are down and out and I'm sending them back tonight. I should just buy the pair in the Classifieds now and tell Ron to Piss Off, but I know he's probably just drawn out from too many idiots out there. I'm hoping we can figure this out, even if we split the cost or something. I really feel like I just got a bad tube - I mean, seriously, since when does a tube pop by hand pressure?

So the ZMA currently has the Nationals in the Input section, the stock 23P in the PI section, and the Golden Lion KT66 in the power section. Right now I don't really like what I hear - but everything is still breaking in. I'm out of town for a few days, so I'll follow up when I get back.

Well it was your recommendations that lead me to go try the GL KT66 and  6N1P from Cryoset - so I'm hoping I see the same improvement that you do; though I recognize that you and I have different ultimate goals in our final sound.

I totally see where Ron is coming from, I've never had a tube pop like this, and I know he's handled it after the Cryo treatment, tested it, and documented it. I can only speak to what happened when I tried to pull it out of the box. I also made a point to tell him that I had zero damage to the packaging - which makes this even harder to believe, but it is what it is.

Well, I'm back listening to the Harma KT66's with the 6N23P's and liking what I hear. This is one smooth sounding combination, and I don't mean in the glossed over details sense.
I discovered that I have a problem with my Tung-Sol KT66's in that the bias of one of the tubes is way off. Bad enough that I can't set the correct bias on the ZMA. Not sure what I'm going to do about that.

Quote:


Try swapping sides, and if the problem follows the tube, then it's for sure a bad tube.

LR, have you tried the Nationals 7DJ8's yet? I had to get a pair in last night an I'm listening this morning. They are as Kevin described with only 11 hours on them...smooth/extended top an bottom with no exaggeration, yet very articulate and not taking away from transient attacks....an ohhh, the timbre an 3D addition of Air. I am very pleased. I am only using a pair in the Pre slots of the ZMA currently. My first of six scenario's for this tube. Let me know...I will buy them from you...if you do not like them. I am using them with the KT66 Tung-Sols...that they mate well with.

An yes, 11 hours does not make for a complete take on them. But, hopefully after a 100 hours an comparing to the 6N23P back in......will see (hear).

6N1P showed up last night. Popped them out of the boxes, popped them into the ZMA input section without incident - I think I like them better than the Nationals - but haven't really given them a chance to stretch their legs, or try with the stock KT66.

I'm off all next week, so I'll have plenty of time to listen while Brianne is at work - I should know more next week now that I have my tube lineup in hand and burning in.

Super Cryo Voshod's I assume you got. Not the GL's.

http://www.cryoset.com/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=21_24&products_id=251&osCs...

Well, I'm off to Pine Tree Apple Orchard to get my pre-ordered Apple Pies in a snow storm!  I love winter!  NOT!

I just changed Siemens E88CC 4 tubes from Europe Ebay seller to Tube Museum seller. The tubes from Tube Museum provide more than 30% sonic improvement.  It is substantial improvement. But the price of tubes from Tube Museum is more expensive than general eBay sellers of 20%.  You pay for what you get. However the tubes from Europe are much better than stock tubes.

I ran my ZMA with the Gold Lion KT66 tubes all day and they settled in somewhat.  The bias dropped to about 56 ma and the sound seemed more "dense" than with the Tung-Sols and also louder.  I don't know if the increase in volume is more due to the 20%+ greater tube strength than anything else?  The transformers, despite the higher bias, actually seem to be running cooler with the GLs than with the TSs.

Has anyone tried a pair of these choices, in the Pre A12 an B12 of the ZMA?

Tungsram 6922 Platinum Grade 2 x 75. = $150
Ediswan CV2492/6922 Platinum Cryo 2 x 108. = $216.
Philips SQE88CC/6922 Platinum Grade 2 x 169. = $338.
Telefunken E88CC/6922 Platinum Grade 2 x 149. = $298.

I'm currently using a pair of Nationals in my A12 an B12 positions an enjoying the results with the stock Tung-Sol KT66's...Inverter tubes/stock 6N23P's....an 6N1P's stock in my CSP3.

I've got the Tube Rolling Bug....an "try an stop me".  ;D

This morning I switched the position of Siemens E88CC/6922's with the Telefunken E88CC/6922's. The Siemens are now in positions 11A and 11B and the Telefunkens are in positions 12A and 12B. The Telefunkens are now the dominant tube and seems I've left the best arrangement until last. This combination brings out the best in the Telefunkens and is very seductive.

The Nationals aren't doing much for me...but then, I've not tried any other configurations for two weeks due to the new El Camino speakers I'm testing out. I didn't want to muddy the water with tube changes on top of new speakers breaking in.

I have next week off, I'm hoping to get back to tube testing now that they should all have 100 or so hours on them or more.

I replaced the Tungsol KT-66s with a matched quad of Gold Lions from Cryoset a couple weeks ago.  As I've been wandering through my vinyl I am noticing an increased resolution in song lyrics.  I assume that the increased resolution goes throughout the music.

That's cool. I couldn't keep the Tung-Sols in the main system after hearing the Gold Lions, and then the TADs, the Tung-Sols are definiltely the ones I like least. But then I think I go for a different type of sound than you.

Isn't it great when our systems sing? I'm enjoying mine immensely this afternoon, while I can (will be away from it tonight and tomorrow damnit!)

Yes, different systems altogether. I just remember your comment that the PWD MK 2 did not have enough treble for you. . . and it makes my ears bleed there's so much, no DAC I've heard has not made me turn the treble down on my amp, and I praise the Lord for Steve's treble cut circuit, I can't have an amp without one (the main reason I didn't jump on the ZMA wagon).

Have a nice safe one Larry!

Oh boy, the Tele's came yesterday and they did not disappoint!

I put them in this morning at 6 am. They are truly beautiful an neutral. 72 hour burn from Kevin an I have 5 hours on them now. The extra special clarity, musical resolution with even more timbre while remaining tight imaged an deep, is amazing. The ZMA deserves tube rolling in the A12 an B12 inputs/pre.

Cheers, back to the Listening Room for Stone...as a snow storm rages outside. Let me know when it's May!

Yeah, I hear you on being sick. I had a concussion in June an my appendix ruptured in October. Sick the first 10 days of December.

So, I treated myself to these awesome tubes from Upscale. I use a pair in the front positions A12 an B12 (see manual) inputs/pre only. I am so pleased as stated above.

I found the place for my Telefunken's......
http://www.upscaleaudio.com/telefunken-e88cc-6922/

...in the Input tube position of my CSP3. It is hard to mess with perfection of this Preamp (w/Jupiter Caps). However, this Telefunken (Platinum) with the 6N1P-EV's (pair for Outputs) from Steve is just brilliant running into the ZMA with his Tube Compliment. I do use Matsushita/National's (Platinum) in the Input A12 & B12 positions of my ZMA as well.
http://www.upscaleaudio.com/matsushita-national-pcc88-7dj8/

I'm sticking with this scenario for some time to come...... .


Listening Room:
Room Treatments from Michael Green & Home Brew
Sony as Transport
Illuminati D-60
Chord Chordette QuteHD DAC
Kimber Select KS1030 IC RCA
Decware CSP3 w/Jupiter Caps (NOS/Platinum/Telefunken 6922 / E88CC for input tube)
Kimber Select KS1030 IC RCA
Decware Zen Mystery Amplifier (NOS/Platinum/Matsushita / National PCC88 / 7DJ8 in A12 an B12 inputs)
Kimber Select KS3035 Speaker Cable
Vintage Polk SDA1 Speakers in Stereo (91db)
XLO Pro Power Cords to CSP3 & ZMA
PS Audio P3 Power Plant / Pangea AC-9SE from wall to P3
(Front End an CSP3 Regenerated/116, 118 an 120v are used/Multiwave off...ZMA on HC Output)

Decware SE84CS (w/NOS Svetlana SV83's from 1980's-not the New Sensor knock-offs) & Decware Super Zen CKC...when SE Pentodes run in Triode/Decware Style...needs to be in the System!

Decware New SET Mono's pending..... .

LOL - I did a not quite so quiet celebration of my ZMA on the 7th.

At least, I think it was the 7th I got my ZMA. I'd have to go back through that long thread where we spend pages pining over the build list.  :)

I can't comment on the ZP3. I do have a Vinyl Rig though in my SS System. One day, maybe a ZP3 for me too.

I would work the inputs as you can see I have done, with the Telefunken an Nationals. I am pleased with the results. I have the ZDSD coming in to run direct to my ZMA. However, I love my CSP3 with my Telefunken as input tube. Will see how direct vs. through CSP3 sounds.

Stone, if you like those stock Russian tubes Steve sends in the CSP3, you'll love those in the link below from a Russian Seller.  I believe they are older 1960's versions with triple Micas of the same type Steve uses.  Syd (Marky) and I both bought a pair and mine aren't going anywhere.  Shortly after, I changed the other Russian tube Steve sent to an Amperex 7308.  I can't remember which forum member turned Syd and I on to these tubes but they are great and worth the money and the wait.  Mark.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/NEW-RAREST-MATCHED-BALANCED-PAIR-6N1P-E-military-boxed-a...

Anyone roll EL34 (6CA7) tubes yet? If so, is there a characteristic sound difference with EL34's over the stock KT66's?

Cool. I have fallen in love with the KT66 sound in my Toriis so I probably won't move back to the 6CA7 sound but I bet these are good, and there's a lot of great listening with that tube type I bet in the ZMA (I know there is in the Toriis, I listened to several brands for a few years it seems).

I must say though that in my recent experiencee cryo'd Gold Lion KT66 took over 100 hours to really became what they promise to be and even more to really season and become jaw-dropping.  If you can stand to break them in further you may find they sound better than they have. If not, I bet you could sell a quad here pretty easily. . . .

I totally understand that! I have a great tube complement in my main system right now and am loathe to change one single part of it. I did roll a pair of Hytron OB2 tubes in place of RCA OA2 tubes and the sound was so . . . not right. . . with this complement that within 4 hours they were out and the RCA was back. It's amazing how each tube type is vital in these revealing amps, and synergy once found is hard to tamper with!

That's great BVictor.  I'm using PSVANE 6ca7-t in my Torii III and just can't take them out.  I completely agree with your well written description.

JD

Can we run KT-88's?   I though KT-77 was the limit.  Or more to the point what is available that would give max output?

bvictor,  after doing a google search, I found that yesterday.  If I buy them that's where I'll go.  Thanks,  Mark.

Brian,  I just ordered a Quad.  There were very few available on ebay and no quads and no US sellers.  Jim McShane that used to have them according to older threads else where also has none.  I also ordered a cryoed version of the valve arts 274b that I use in my CSP3.  Mark.

Syd,  this time you followed me.  Let's hope they sound good.  They are circa 1980's NOS Russian Military tubes and I've found more good than bad impressions on the internet.  Prior to researching these, I was going to buy the 6L6GC reissues Lon bought from cryoset for $95 that he likes.  Hope I made the right choice because I don't think I'll be buying anymore power tubes soon.  Let me add that there will be a 50 to 100 hour burn in period before everything gels according to other users.  Mark.

PS...the ones with the coin bases are supposed to be much better sounding than the larger black bases.

PSS...Syd,  I emailed Alex, our Russian seller, to ask if he had these...he did not have any more of them.  Of course he said the two other types he had were better...yeah right!

LOL Syd,  in this case, with a US seller using the US Postal Service, I should get them within a week...not over two months.  I did find a Russian site that sold them for $11 but I think it's money well spent to get them Cryo treated from a US Seller for $16.50 each. Mark.

PS...when I bought the Torii MK IV, I ordered it with the Tung Sol KT-66 but when I bought a used pair of RFT EL-34s, I loved the sound so much better that they have never come out.  I have come to the conclusion that I need to give the KT-66s a fair trial someday.  I doubt they're even broken in.

Syd,  you bought them from a Ukrainian seller?...mmm.  I've found 2 Russian sellers who sell them for 11 or 12 dollars...not on ebay.  Mark.

PS...I think I read about that rectifier in someone's "Rectifier Shoot Out"...maybe on headfi.  I won't spend that much on rectifiers.

PSS...when I initially looked on ebay, I must have used the wrong name for these tubes because when I looked just now there are lots of sellers...including many from the Ukraine.  But mine will be cryoed...hehe.

Hi Mark, funeral duty today, long drives + a nap when I got back.
We`re still in the ZMA thread but common tubes . I checked Rons site before I bought and thought you had bought these leaving one or two quads available.
Heres the link, double the postage of the 6n1p-E`s but twice the amount of tubes. Oh, Mark I think he`s out of them as well.

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/181620057977?_trksid=p2059210.m2749.l2649&ssPageName=S...
says he gives 5% discount for paypal ???
Syd

He has pairs available here.
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/6P3S-E-6L6-6L6GT-Matched-Selected-Pair-Gold-Grid-NOS-N...

These look a good price, much better than mine, same tubes
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/6P3S-E-5881-6L6GC-Tubes-Gold-Logo-Gold-Grid-Lot-of-4-P...

Says he gives 5% discount for paypal ???
Syd

Syd, LR,  I'm not too wild about buying from these places but if I decide I want the tubes I may have to.  I think I may buy from a Russian tube seller and ask for tests to verify that I'm getting a matched quad...I have no way to test them myself.  Ron said he had gotten 400 of the tubes originally but quite a few were not usable, so I wouldn't want to buy from a foreign seller that doesn't test and match.  I would really prefer to buy from a US seller but I don't think that's possible now.  I'll do some digging around.  Might even get something different.  A used quad of RCA Black plate 6L6GCs went for $152 recently...a bit more than I'd like to pay...those are supposed to be real nice tubes.  

Syd, looking at those sites, it seems like a lot of these tubes have sold in the last 24 hours.  Who's buying these?  Besides Syd and Brian?  Mark.

Syd, the reviews I read except for those here were from years ago...I think.  To me the difference in price means very little.  Of course there are rather arbitrary limits to what I will pay...seems to change from day to day.  Like most things, it's a matter of supply and demand...and so far the demand for the NOS 80's Russian tubes isn't high enough to have caused the supply to become scarce, at least in former USSR countries.  If you read Joe's Tube Lore you'll see some of the prices he occasionally quotes...if only we could get those tubes for the prices back then..late 90's I believe.  His review probably had a hand in popularizing and making known many of the tubes he reviewed. Even the tubes you and I bought from Alex in Russia, have gone up $6 since our purchases, maybe due to those who bought after reading our praises.

My interest in the 6L6 type power tubes was to find a warmer presentation than the RFT EL-34s.  In recent reading I was coming to realize that included in all the traits I love about these tubes there is also an extended or pronounced high end that I don't particularly enjoy with quite a few recordings.  To tell you the truth though, since my experiments with resistors in the HR-1s this issue is becoming less important.  I may cool my jets on trying new power tubes for now.  I may pop in the KT-66s I already have to see what most people here are raving about...as I've learned with time, I probably hadn't even broken them in properly.  I will await others impressions of these coin based Russian Military power tubes and would definitely try them if a US seller stocked matched Quads for a reasonable price.  Mark.

Will,  I had been researching those for a while when I posted here for some user impressions.  Brian had them and really liked them.  The day before, I knew they were available in matched cryoed quads from Cryoset but didn't pull the trigger until Brian's endorsement. Unfortunately Brian decided to buy what would turn out to be the last Quad Ron had available...the Bastard...hehe.  So now I'm reconsidering.  It is very helpful to have had fellow forum members who have bought from and had a good experience with a foreign seller.  I'm always reluctant otherwise. My exchange was in the ZMA tube rolling thread even though I have a Torii MK IV as you do. Thanks,  Mark

Well that is digging in Mark! If they are similar to these 80s Reflektors, I am guessing they may be what you are after...I hope so...of the tubes I have they are similar/closest to the RFT sound, but notched back a bit, nicely so to me...sort of between the EL34s and KT66.

Sounds good. Seems with tubes, earlier is very often better. Hope they fit in your system!

Syd,  as usual you're way ahead of me.  I paid for mine on Saturday but for some reason ebay/paypal didn't use the 200+ cash in the account or my Credit Card as they usually do...they paid with an E Check from my bank that wasn't debited until Monday and who knows how many days it will take to clear to the seller.  In other words, my tubes haven't even shipped yet.

I'm eager to hear your impressions.  Mark.

Syd,  I did buy from the same seller as you and Will.  If anyone still wants these tubes he's relisted the Quad ad.  Mark.

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/6P3S-E-6L6-6L6GT-Matched-Selected-Quad-Gold-Grid-NOS-N...

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Thanks for the link.  I jumped on the band wagon and ordered a quad at $69 delivered.

Initial impressions. Very clear, bass a little polite but good. Lots of detail. Long way to go before they bloom.

Syd,  are you talking Mullard 12AU7?  and a Brimar what?  rectifier...5R4GY?    And were talking just the ZP3? With new Russian tubes in the Torii. Mark.

A 10hr loop of Aphex Twin today. Imagine being tied to the chair through that.   :-[

The tubes have 20 hrs on them. Hendrix Isle Of White : The bass is monumental Drums snappy, delicate, with air, the snare is vibrating at times, Hendrix guitar is very detailed. The next 80 hrs should be good.

Mark, your `60s and `70s sets........
Think mine are `81, if that the date written on them.

Troubador JJ Cale : Love JJ, lots of clever layers. I do like the new presentation. I dont like to say it but I`m connecting in a +ve way, expecting new details.
Syd.

Yes they`ve definitely turned a corner Mark. It`s good not to faff around and just enjoy. I thought they might be underpowered but my settings are now back to normal and the volume level is where I like it. They are drawing 40 ma.

Hi bvictor, just read a great write up for the Shuguangs. Bet they look nice in the Rachael and well worth the money. I wish all power tubes were decorated. If only they could have forseen them being on show back in the day
The 6P3S-E`s are a follow up to some tubes some of us bought for the CSP`s, a 6n1p-E, Russian made as well. They are excellent and a low price. Both have those small dish getters with a dimple ( flying saucers ) The 6P3S-E have 2 getters. Bit of a long shot, they have had good reviews and are shaping up on the right track.
I read about the detail your Shuguangs are capable of. Now that would be something if the 6P3S-E`s could get somewhere near.
Syd.

Oh, I see you have the ZMA. So you have 4 Shuguangs.
lol this is the ZMA thread. I got hijacked into here. Honest.

I could write a lot about them Archie, they went through a number of changes. The bass was light then warmed up but got in a muddle behind the drummer, like he had a cloak over him. 20 hrs gave them a listenable take but something was missing. 40 hrs and they got involving. I`m on about 50hrs+ and wont be taking them out. They are just starting to deliver the goods. Last night was another milestone when I played H. Wolfs Lon. Sessions. I`ve been nailed to the listening seat for a while.
As always it`s a credit to Decware that I can monitor all the improvements with confidence.
And of course Mark who flagged them up.
They are on my saved searches so I can spot a `60`s set.

Still waiting on my Russian tubes. Must be coming on a slow boat from...Romania or wherever.

Tubes showed up today. Good, sexy midrange. Smooth treble. But you give up bass and attack compared to KT66

Not bad for the money.

Bass isn't bad, it's just not big and punchy like with the KT66. I think the attack on the KT66 is nicer, which also makes the bass better.

But for what I paid, these are pretty good tubes! And they haven't drifted after 30 hours of playback! I may have to keep these in storage, and pick up another pair for guitar amp use.

I'm already back to my stock KT66, and I put my GE Labeled Telefunkin (at least the sticker says Telefunkin on it - I have no idea what they really are). I have them in the PI section, and they really liven up the music. Everything sounds...I don't know, happier. Brighter and more airy without being edgy or piercing. I really need to figure out what these tubes are and buy a backup set! It's rare that a tube makes more than a slight difference in my system - so this is one I'd like to stock up on.

When counting hours for the purpose of breaking in tubes, do the total hours count or just the hours the amp is playing music?  My amps seem to be on 2+ times as long as I play music through them.

Thanks Will. That's what I figured but I was hoping it might be differnt with tubes.  I am liking these Russian 6P3s-Es.  After a few more weeks I might try my GL KT66s again to see if I'm missing anything.  Sure doesnt' seem like it.

Archie,

Sounds good. I am listening to the GL KT66 in the MKIV now. I really like that tube. For me, though I like tube sets with different overall tonal characters, my "requirements" for sound balance have become so specific, I really am glad to have selection of nice rectifiers, VRs, inputs and power tubes. You Mystery folks have two inputs and power tubes, right? Less tubes to have to own, and less adjustment potential too. But then the bias must be a nice tuning tool.

I recall the manual saying that the OA3s are not to be changed to another regulator type, like OB3 in the Mystery. But since the VR is in front of the inputs, and the input/phase tubes drive the power tubes, it would seem to me a tube that might be fun to explore. I have a number of OA3s, and they all shift the Toriis in their own ways...different. I wonder what Steve would think of trying different OA3s? If the amp ships with those pictured, they look like black based RCAs, really nice tubes, but also they have a particular flavor that is its own within the tube type.

From the Mystery Amp manual:

"This amplifier is designed to operate with a 50ma bias on each output tube.
Running higher bias currents for any length of time will overheat the power supply
transformers and could cause pre-mature failure. We recommend no more than
60ma per tube at any point. Running less is not an issue for the power supply but
doing so will reduce the power output of the tubes and change how they sound.
Some will use this technique as an esoteric voicing tool."

Stone,

I have been working my way through the input sections, starting with the phono stage (using RCA triple Mica) then the preamp (http://www.upscaleaudio.com/amperex-7308-vintage-gold-pin/).  

Taking a bit of your advice I bought a pair of the nationals and put them into the preamp slots of the ZMA.

Mostly I listen to Classic 70's hard rock and big band.  I never felt I had understood the term "relaxed" before, but I totally felt that the nationals transformed the ZMA so I was experiencing the relaxed sound.  Great highs and a really wide soundstage.  The downside I experienced was that with rock I lost a lot of the PRAT.  It seemed this is a trade off that works fine with music with singers and the big band sound but is not acceptable with say ZZ Top.  

Granted I only have 10 hours of burn in on the nationals but I moved them over to the preamp in the output stage to burn in.  They actually sound pretty good there and I get a lot more PRAT out of the entire system.  I may leave the there but I will revisit moving them back to the ZMA after some more seasoning.

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The lack of PRAT is why I didn't like the nationals. Good sound, but I lost something that the ZMA does well.

IMHO - I'm going for air and detail with silky top end. I'm still looking for that.