If you enjoy building things yourself, this is a great way to go.  If not, Randy's Betsy Baffles for around $500 are a great way to find out what it is all about!

Steve

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Intuition is a wonderful thing.  Thank you Steve!  

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It's that kind of crap that makes you believe in the Audio Gods... I mean seriously. I still remember the first time I removed the handle on an original Betsy baffle and immediately put it right back on. The strength in fragility is a demonstration of supreme intelligence of which I'm sorry, we're just not quite there yet. Making or breaking the sound of a speaker by a simple handle in the exact right place is their way of signing their work. They knew it would be discovered.

Steve  

Hi Brian,

I do perceive benefits to the ST in my other build but as I said, not with the BBs.  It could be I have a sensitivity match issue with the F15s being more sensitive, but in my other build I have to use a resistor to take them down a bit or they can be overwhelming.  With the F15, I ran them wide open and maybe that was still not enough to feel the effects.

The Big Betsy's sound stage is so huge and the drivers produce such tight, focused music, I'm still of the opinion that a ST is not needed.

Part of my somewhat impulsive jump to the Big Betsy's was a desire to simplify and while the build was a bit challenging, they are a stupid simple way to get great sound - especially with a 2 watt SET.

Not yet Arch.

I have some new bass drivers coming in for my other baffles that I ordered a Looooong time ago.  When those arrive, I am going to swap out speakers, disassemble the Big Betsy's - do the base, paint the handles, oil them, wax etc.

That is absolutely true.  Never before has a 2 watt Zen Triode Amplifier been able to run you over like a monster truck using such a small speaker.  Usually it takes a 28 CUBIC FOOT FOLDED HORN on each channel to accomplish that and with the right vintage high efficiency drivers.

We have never had anything this good...  the F15 driver is similar to the vintage drivers of the 1950's, you know, like that magic bullet that you could never hope to find in perfect condition and even if you could, you could never share it with anyone because there would only be one pair available.  These drivers are GAME CHANGERS for low power tube gear.  Many audiophiles use them in larger ported cabinets, but I can promise you the Big Betsy will have them re-thinking that move.

This is what will make this years DECFEST so exciting.  The main focus being the 25th anniversary Zen Triode Amplifier and matching preamp driving a single pair of voice coils with no subs and only 2 watts per channel.  The Harmon Kardon receivers we grew up paired to Altec Lansings didn't hit like this... well they did, but it was dirty by comparison.  It's a real thrill to find a speaker that will CRUSH everything you have and do it on our favorite amplifier, the Zen Triode 2 watt SET.

Steve

I have just finished up the Crystal 10’s. A tip of the hat to Archie for his suggestion of a box for steel shot pellets. I got extra bags so I could split the shot into 2 bags so it would fit in the box better. Below, I’ve included some photos.

I’m a few weeks in with Listening to them. So far, so good. I finally stopped using supplemental bass because it kind of muddied the overall sound. Overall, so far, I can see that Steve is prolly right about a Zrock helping with the bass. Also, as good as it sounds, I can’t help but wonder how the bass would sound in a proper cabinet. As Steve said, these really were not meant for open baffle use. With that said, though, they are damn good open baffle!  And I do still have a few weeks until they are broken in good. At that point, I will do some comparisons between them and the Betsy Alnico’s with supplemental bass. That will be interesting, as the Betsy’s May well be, as Steve stated, the best open baffle design that exists. I know it is my benchmark...

*It should be noted that my baffles are about 3” smaller than Steve’s and also are made from Baltic Birch plywood instead of the dense hardwood that Steve’s are made of, so apples to oranges in comparison.

Front.

Thanks Archie. No, I don’t have a Zrock on order. When I first got my Betsy setup about a year ago, I had had a Zrock with my previous speakers, but didn’t feel like I needed it with the supplemental bass I had with the Betsy’s, so, like a fool, I sold it.

I think the shot has tightened the bass up. Thank you for the great idea!

On down the road, if I’m not satisfied with the Crystals in my Baffles, then I’ll have a bigger hole cut and try the 15’s 😉

The other day when I was measuring things, I did a comparison between the Big Betsy Baffles and the Big Betsy Jr. Baffles and even though it tells you relatively little, here is is.  The Big Betsy/F15 combo in red and the ZROCKED BBJ/Crystal 10 combo in green.

Measured from the listening position in my room.



You'll have to scroll left to right to read it all.

Steve

Hi Radarek,

Welcome to the family.

The 604e drivers have a really low QTS in the 20's... meaning they will have poor base performance in an open baffle which likes 70's or higher. They like a cabinet.  If you want to really go all out and have the room, a pair of the Imperial Horns in our DIY section would be spectacular.

Steve

I think this is great that you’ll be offering these in a budget build.  I’ll look forward to hearing the different builds at the fest.

I am putting together my BB playlist and have some songs that will hopefully show off what these speakers can do.

If you have ever found yourself thinking that you get great transparency with your tube amp but limited volume or hit, this is a speaker for you.

Great to hear about your plywood baffle build Steve.  If nothing else I want to possibly build a prototype out of plywood and if I like it enough in my own room then build the artistic version of this.  My brother has a very expensive slab of Claro Walnut he would sell me (I think $2k) at his cost that I could make 2 baffles and a short dining room table out of.  The speakers would look and sound awesome - and then I would need to work the electronics end and get your Anniversary Amp and Pre.  1 step at a time....

I have not been to Decfest before - is there a good thread to read what it is all about, tentative plan, etc.?

Best wishes and you truly rock!

Ken

Thanks for the good advice and great info.  Sounds like something I would enjoy - now I just need to see if I can clear my calendar for 4 days to drive over to East Peoria from the Kansas City area.

Thanks!

Stoney Creek Resort/Hotel is the closest hotel and it was certainly good enough for me last year that I booked it again this year.

Hello radarek.
I am glad you decided to join the communication. I hope you enjoy the talk here.

Brian

Ha Ha Ha!
That is so true!

Brian

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Hi Ken,

Yes, the solid slabs are an exciting proposition! Perhaps we can see you at the fest and you can hear the originals as well as an entire room full of speakers for perspective.  If not, definitely post your builds here so we can enjoy your results with you!

Thanks,

Steve

Steve,

I really need to get up to your place for DECFEST or another time very soon.  I have been following your products and forums for 3 years now and I flat need to hear your amps, the ZOB, BBB, BBjr, DNA2, and HR1s etc....  I have never heard tube amps other than MacIntosh @ Best Buy (exactly....) so need to hear the real deal with your amps.  I think I want a tube amp (SE no feedback with serious design chops like yours), I think I want resolution like the ZOB or BBjr.  BUT until I hear everything I won't know - it would be awesome if I preferred the BBB.  I strongly suspect at the end of the day I will have to make both and drive it them with your amps.  If I get to the builds anytime soon I will definitely post updates here and share what I learn - I have a few ideas I would want to experiment with.

Thanks,

Well after a long and somewhat trying day I am amazed at how fast it all melts away with the Big Betsy / F15 combo and a Zen TORII MK4.  Wow, what a combination that is.  I just had a demo where the clients were interested to see if DECWARE low power tube gear can compete with their solid state 1200 watt RMS bi-amped system, and the Big Betsy / TORII MK4 spanked its ass pretty bad according to them.  I would hope so, because they're measuring 108dB at the couch and it was louder than that in the hall way.  I had to put headphones on just to keep my head from exploding. Amazingly everything held together just tight as a brick with no audible distortion.  I've never actually heard the speakers anywhere near that loud before, and was somewhat shocked at how WELL they graced through it like it was nothing.  I mean it was beyond seriously loud.  

It was also painfully evident that the TORII MK4 simply  L O V E D  these open baffle speakers, as it does all open baffle speakers.  It was always the amplifier of choice with my Zen Open Baffle speakers, but the same amp on the Big Betsy /F15 combo simply embarrasses the ZOB beyond belief.  It was the first time I head what a TORII MK4 cranked up to the wood can actually do.  Simply amazing.  He wanted the ZMA but after that demo, likely going to save himself a couple grand.

I never heard anything that loud in this building since we moved in all those years ago.  Literally I have never heard anything get that loud in the room without loosing it regardless of power and who is it that comes running through the smoke cloud with the checkered flag but the TORII MK4 with Anniversary mods.  Simply amazing.  Boy if you like bass hit this combo will crush everything. And it will go exactly twice as loud as you can possibly stand.  If you applied the 1dB per beer equation to this combo, you would die of alcohol poisoning before you got the amplifier to clip.  

I've put in my share of  night club sound systems over the years and this hit like that on a night when everyone was on steroids... and the rack of solid state amplifiers and 18 inch subwoofers were about to melt down in unison while everyone mistakes the smoke for dance floor fog machines.  

I was amazed to find the knee point in the listening room is higher that I would have guessed. Most impressive were the damn speakers because they were just setting there, you couldn't even see the cones moving more than a tiny fraction of an inch and yet the building was being wrecked like a live concert.  ZERO stress, distortion or compression.  ZERO.  ZERO.

So it is great to turn on this combo at a 1 watt level and let it just play with the music and my mood.

Yes, this years DECFEST will actually have to have an SPL warning alarm in case someone tries to play these speakers too loud. Probably just a SPL activated orb that floats around the room and shocks offenders with mini lighting bolts.  I'm working on it now.

-Steve

Geno, I can't say anything about the fidelity since I listened through my crappy computer speakers but your setup looks fantastic.  I love the grills.

If Steve is to be believed, and I generally do -- blindly, get a ZROCK2 and ditch the subs and sub amp.

I did get a little woozy with the floating sway.  

Hey Jeff, have you got your Crystal 10s up and running?

Andy, you'll have to look for it but in a later post Steve tells us his exact build dimensions.  The drawing was only his starting point.  Steve's post comes after many of us were discussing variations in our build/calculations.

Edit:  I did the work for you.  Look at Steve's post, #200 at the top of page 5. 

Steve,

How do the Big Betsy Jr's sound with the Torii IV?  I presume the ZROCK2 would still be needed to the same level as before - just curious about that pairing.

Thanks,

Cut out the big Betsy panels on the shopbot today and it actually worked! I am pretty excited to build the bases and mount the speakers. Steve, so you know, after hearing your Big Betsy's, not a full day passed before I ordered a set of the 15" speakers from Lii Audio!