Welcome, Guest. Please Login or Register
Decware Audio Forums
07/24/21 at 06:32:18 


       


Pages: 1 ... 12 13 14 15 16 ... 31
Send Topic Print
Steve's BIG BETSY Project (Read 360394 times)
Geno
Seasoned Member
****


Without music, life
would be a mistake.
Nietzsche

Posts: 1316
Re: Steve's BIG BETSY Project
Reply #650 - 08/29/19 at 03:02:57
 
Thanks Archie! It just so happens that I have a gift certificate from Cabela’s, so that is what I’ll do.
Back to top
 
 

SE84UFO(25th Mods) / CSP3
Cambr. Audio CXN (ModWright) / Cambr. Audio CXC / ZBIT
Technics 1210 MK5 (KAB Mods) - KAB/Ortof ProS 40 cart / ZP3 (25th Mods)
Otari MX5050 R2R
ZLC Power Cond. w/ Decware power cable
Lii Crystal 10 Open Baffles / Lii W-15 Bass OB's
  IP Logged
Andy P
Verified Member
**




Posts: 26
Re: Steve's BIG BETSY Project
Reply #651 - 08/29/19 at 13:58:15
 
update on the bowling alley wood.

I looked into these quite a bit and decided to not go that route.  I learned a bit about bowling alley construction through (disclaimer: not scientifically researched and may even be BS) turns out the first section where you throw the ball is event thicker, @3" it then feathers into pine, so a lot of those panels are pine.  Then back to maple at the end (at least that is my understanding).

I was also told that the boards are laid on site much like a wood floor in a house. they have a profile on the edge that accepts the next board and then they are NAILED!  show stopper for any cutting or shaping.  

So while the wood is a great bargain, it may not be much fun to work with,

Also, I am guessing the glue they use is minimal, and that it does not fare well outside where a lot of these panels get stored.  I saw a lot of panels online where the boards were loose. The person I spoke to said, the panels can loosen up and have flex in them.

So while these would make a great tabletop, I am guessing they may not be the greatest to work with. If I ever run across one here in town for cheap, I may experiment with it.

Regarding the thickness.  I am hearing the 2" or even more would be better than the standard 1 1/2" thickness?

I spoke to a lumber mill here in town and they said, to get a 2" finished board, they would have to go up to 2 1/2 nominal thickness and that would greatly increase the price.

I love the idea of the book-matched panels.

Speakers are coming this week.

Great forum!  Thanks for the feedback
Back to top
 
 
  IP Logged
deucekazoo
Seasoned Member
****




Posts: 445
Re: Steve's BIG BETSY Project
Reply #652 - 08/29/19 at 14:19:19
 
Andy P, thanks for the info about the alley wood. I always thought they were solid maple all the way down.

I have been looking at counter tops from Menards. They are solid birch and come in two different widths and a few different lengths. They are also 1.5" thick so if you wanted to go 3" thick, just glue two of them together. But once you go that thick you have to worry about  back cutting the driver so its not in a tunnel and letting it breather. This might be a little more complicated unless you have the correct router bit.
Keep us posted on your build.
Back to top
 
 
  IP Logged
Showme
Seasoned Member
****




Posts: 254
Re: Steve's BIG BETSY Project
Reply #653 - 08/29/19 at 15:17:30
 
I used the Menard's butcher block  countertops, 72"x 36" to make an audio rack. I cut 4 36" x 18" shelves and used all-thread for the uprights. Worked out great. The point in me saying all this is that I agree, their countertops would work great for the baffles I'm sure.
Back to top
 
 
  IP Logged
Archie
Seasoned Member
****




Posts: 2293
Re: Steve's BIG BETSY Project
Reply #654 - 08/29/19 at 16:24:34
 
The Menard's tops look like a decent price.  I've posted a link in a couple of places in this thread where you can get 1 3/4" Hard Maple tops too.  For no other reason than Steve setting the bar with his hard and dense tropical HW baffles at 1 3/4" thick, I'd try to go hard and thick too.

The amount of work that goes into cutting the blanks into baffles far outweighs the "slight" increase in cost of getting the best material possible to start, all within reason, of course.
Back to top
 
 

ZLC
Technics 1200G TT w/ Ortofon Jubilee MC cart
ZMC1
ZP3 (25th A Mods)
ZR2 (25th A Mods) -- currently not in use
CSP3 (25th A mods)
ZMA (25th A mods)
Homemade Big Betsy Speakers (F15s)
Silver Cabling
DIY Isolation platforms under amps & TT.
  IP Logged
Andy P
Verified Member
**




Posts: 26
Re: Steve's BIG BETSY Project
Reply #655 - 08/29/19 at 19:03:39
 
Ash glued up panels.

I reached out to a lumber supplier that does table tops in town and they quoted @ $520 for two panels 1 3/4 x 42 x 33. Material is $275, labor is $225 plus tax. It looks like 2 1/4 panels would cost about $50 more total.  Would you suggest going with the 2 1/2 panels?
Back to top
 
 
  IP Logged
Palomino
Seasoned Member
****




Posts: 2286
Re: Steve's BIG BETSY Project
Reply #656 - 08/29/19 at 19:19:58
 
I don’t think you have to go that thick, but if you have the budget it would be interesting to see what you think.  Easy for me to say Wink

I’ve think the group has had luck with 1”, 1.5” and 1.75” so far.  Randy has had good sound with the smaller 3/4” baffles so I don’t know if you can go too far wrong.

With my baffles at only 1” I have been glued to them for the last two weeks or so.  I haven’t pulled them out of the rig to finish them because I don’t want to be without them.

Back to top
 
 

i7 Mac Mini with LPSU/SSD running Audirvana 3.5, Uptone Audio Regen on LPSU, Mytek Brooklyn DAC+, Ven Haus DIY Silver ICs, 25th Anniversary Zen, PS Audio P5 Power Supply, PS Audio Power Cords, Zen Styx Speaker Wire, DIY Big Betsy and Crystal 10 Open Baffle Speaker
  IP Logged
Randy in Caintuck
Seasoned Member
****


Tube be ... or not
tube be ... it's a
no-brainer.

Posts: 884
Re: Steve's BIG BETSY Project
Reply #657 - 08/29/19 at 20:15:31
 


Geno wrote .....

Quote:
Birch is the only option they have in wood. The only other option is MDF.


Geno,

Is that birch plywood (specifically Baltic birch) ?
If so, I am presuming that they don't offer any hardwoods ?

Thanks,
Randy

Back to top
 
 

CEC TL5N belt drive CD transport
Cambridge Audio Azur 851N DAC / Streamer
U-Turn Audio Orbit Plus turntable
Decware SE84UFO amplifier
Caintuck Audio Betsy Open Baffles
Caintuck Audio Lii 15 Open Baffles
WWW   IP Logged
Geno
Seasoned Member
****


Without music, life
would be a mistake.
Nietzsche

Posts: 1316
Re: Steve's BIG BETSY Project
Reply #658 - 08/29/19 at 22:49:28
 
That's correct, Randy. Baltic Birch plywood and no hardwood, unfortunately.  

Best,

Geno
Back to top
 
 

SE84UFO(25th Mods) / CSP3
Cambr. Audio CXN (ModWright) / Cambr. Audio CXC / ZBIT
Technics 1210 MK5 (KAB Mods) - KAB/Ortof ProS 40 cart / ZP3 (25th Mods)
Otari MX5050 R2R
ZLC Power Cond. w/ Decware power cable
Lii Crystal 10 Open Baffles / Lii W-15 Bass OB's
  IP Logged
Steve Deckert
Administrator
*****


If the 1st watt
sucks why continue?

Posts: 5082
Re: Steve's BIG BETSY Project
Reply #659 - 08/30/19 at 03:23:42
 
Well last night I switched over from the Big Betsy to the BBJ and this time placed the BBJ on the outside edges of the Big Betsy which means very wide apart and probably only a foot or two from the side walls.



This is btw working very well. I was frankly a little surprised, but most of what I place wide like that works in this room. I know I listened to the DNA2 in the same location many many times.

Anyway, I turned on the ZROCK2 and set it where it needs to be and thought I should give these speakers some more time... the Big Betsy are so damn good that like Pal said, you hate to turn them off, but I did and now have the intension to see if I can like the BBJ as much or more. This is how it works, cycle and repeat, cycle and repeat. That way you slowly take the ego and subjective aspects out of the analyses and become more objective.

So far it is going very well. No doubt the BBJ sounds more real in the top end. However with the ZROCK2 in place and this current set up I am getting a more than respectable frequency balance, very similar to the Big Betsy.  In fact last night I gave it the real acid test, which is the hungry hippo track (I call it) that set the bar for low bass response last year on the Imperial Folded Horns built into the West end of the listening room.

I have to say it handled that better than it had any business doing it that's for sure!  In fact it went off without a hitch, sounded full and deep. About half way through or so when it really drops, I was again surprised at what I heard.  During the track I thought I was hearing the low end roll off point and then that part came on and it dropped at least nearly an octave. At that point I am pretty sure that with the ZROCK2 the BBJ using the 30Hz Crystal 10 driver actually dropped lower than the Big Betsy and sounding completely together, no breakup. Very impressive and somewhat unexpected.

Naturally I'll have to measure these things one of these evenings and see what happens. I have some unique measuring techniques that will no doubt be very helpful when you want to connect the dots between frequency response and what you actually hear in your room. If we lived in a world where software didn't just stop working one day because it needs updated and things weren't so F'in complicated... my prior attempt to capture a screen video of me doing just that wouldn't have failed. Even got pissed and purchased different software that also didn't work.

Truthfully, the F15 is more visceral in the low end, and the Crystal 10 slightly softer in the bottom, but isn't everything after hearing a Big Betsy? The answer is yes.  Other than that the Crystal 10 pretty much sounds more realistic.  

Additional evaluation of the Crystal 10 will eventually have to take place in it's ideal 220 liter cabinet at which point a lot of things could change. It will probably be the ultimate shoot-out in the end.

Steve



Back to top
 
 
WWW   IP Logged
Steve Deckert
Administrator
*****


If the 1st watt
sucks why continue?

Posts: 5082
Re: Steve's BIG BETSY Project
Reply #660 - 08/30/19 at 05:15:52
 

As the evening progresses and the experimentation continues, I am playing a Qobuz playlist of Acoustic Sole which is pretty Jamaica bass heavy man. It didn't take long to turn off the ZROCK2 which took the otherwise bloated presentation and made it tight and clean as a brick. That was nice.

Can't do that with a normal loudspeaker if you keep in mind that the BBJ requires and would come with a ZROCK2 which means that the speaker has an active component that is fully adjustable and defeatable for the ultimate in adjustability on the fly as you listen. It is easily handing a super wide range of music from disco to classical with real finesse.

The fact that the speakers can sound this good without a ZROCK2 or anything else is what is so encouraging about it. You are using the ZROCK2 almost more for recording compensation than for speaker performance.

The test is while you listen and get lost in writing a forum post, how many times do you actually forget the ZROCK2 isn't ON.  Right now with all these mixes I wouldn't want it on, or at least not adjusted nearly as far as normal. I like this ability to drill into the recording and dial it in the way it was obviously intended to be heard, the way it sounds best... This takes riding the gain to well, it's like adding a multiplier.  

Right now for example, with the ZROCK2 bypassed, the music is perfect. On the Big Betsy there would be a nagging emphasis on the HIT and weight of the recording which is no doubt recorded with a fair amount of compression. They would just be telling you the truth. The BBJ on the other hand lets you ignore this reality and dial it into however it needs to be to sound good.

You might ask, why can't a ZROCK2 on any pair of speakers do that and the answer is that to do it THIS well you need speakers that are by default dry and accurate so that when you add weight you don't get mud. Or put another way, when you listen to a recording that is gained up with bass heavy music and a lot of compression, if you speakers have good bass you will want to put an ice pick into your forehead to end the boom... the leaner speaker can thin this out and get it literally just perfect considering what it had to work with.

This is a big plus to this BBJ approach that I am starting to appreciate.

See, now I put on a Ben Webster 24 bit recording and got 1:51 into the track before I remembered that the ZROCK2 is still off.  Now I'm trying to decide if I care....   oh the curiosity....  what the hell, ... OMG sounds so real now.  Seriously.  It sounds real.


Steve
Back to top
 
 
WWW   IP Logged
Brian
Seasoned Member
****




Posts: 744
Re: Steve's BIG BETSY Project
Reply #661 - 08/30/19 at 05:38:09
 
Steve said:  "No doubt the BBJ sounds more real in the top end."

Hi Steve,
I know you like the purity of no crossover, but how would it sound if you added a bullet tweeter to the 15 inch with only a capacitor?
Back to top
 
 
  IP Logged
Steve Deckert
Administrator
*****


If the 1st watt
sucks why continue?

Posts: 5082
Re: Steve's BIG BETSY Project
Reply #662 - 08/30/19 at 05:57:07
 

Similar but diss-jointed.  It would sound better to do the opposite of a ZROCK2 and give it a slight treble boost in the signal path in my estimation.

It may not even be the top end extension that is making the Crystal 10 sound more real in the top end, it could be the cone material and frequencies around 2K~8K and how they are presented, which I suspect is the actual case.

We all have to admit despite the "feeling the 40K frequencies" camp, that most of us couldn't hear past 17K to save our own life.  Also, most peoples perception of "highs" lives in the 5~8K region and their perception of lows lives in the 120-40Hz region.  The top and bottom octave are almost never heard nor reproduced in live situations  unless you are far away to hear the low and up close within feet to hear the highs.  

The Big Betsy is a lesson in bass.  You thought it was about how low it went, but you found it was about how big it got.  It is a real genuine lesson in bass perception.  Should be donated to science.

Steve
Back to top
 
 
WWW   IP Logged
Steve Deckert
Administrator
*****


If the 1st watt
sucks why continue?

Posts: 5082
Re: Steve's BIG BETSY Project
Reply #663 - 08/30/19 at 06:41:50
 

Here is a great example:  Rua JoAo Pereira da Rosa on Volupias by Gariel Ferrandini

This album is like setting inches away from the reed and a lesson in textures. This particular track just wrecked me on the BBJ/ZROCK2 combo...  it was simply just over the top. It was WAY MORE intrusive than Big Betsy, so REAL to be almost disturbing if it wasn't so pleasantly real and basically pleasant. God I can imagine dark music presented in the same resolution would be permanently damaging. The Tibetan bowl near the end is spot on... just one of the most real things I've heard. Now... if I play this again on the BIG BESTY it will drop 2 points. Regular speakers that we have another 2 points. Hi-Fi speakers with large crossover and low efficiency, another 4 points.  

You know it seems each time I cycle back to the BBJ speakers they are better. When you hear them on real recordings like this, your mind will bend. Please don't be operating heavy machinery or planning to mow or drive. Just hold yourself up and try to keep you chin from scraping the floor.

Boy, this is really going to blow some peoples minds this year at DECFEST! Nothing has ever been presented at DECFEST since the first fest after the 911 attack that does what this Anniversary System does on the BBJ or Big Betsy speaker 100dB systems. I can hardly wait. There is really nothing like creating something that is good and then blabbering on about it in public knowing that everyone will hear it first hand in October and find out (as usual) it wasn't hyperbole...

...Then to see the thrill in everyones eyes as they realize this is obtainable and that they can make it happen too!

I did not know even a year ago that this sound was even possible  with only 2 watts and especially on so many affordable levels. By that I mean that even broke, you can walk away with 65~75% of this sound for less than $500 with a pair of the original Betsy Baffles.

I guess if this is what it takes to get people not yet taking that original design seriously, then this is what it takes. ; ) I know if I went to this years fest and listened to the Big Betsy, and the BBJ and then finally the original Betsy that was less than 1/10th the price and really IS 65% of the sound OR MORE, and just about as big, I would be thrilled as shit.  In fact I would suggest Randy have a few pair with him when he comes just to give a couple attendees the thrill of spontaneous combustion as they drive home with a pair!




Steve
Back to top
 
 
WWW   IP Logged
Archie
Seasoned Member
****




Posts: 2293
Re: Steve's BIG BETSY Project
Reply #664 - 08/30/19 at 16:07:53
 
Steve, what's your impression of the Big Betsy with the ZROCK2?  I'm sure you've tried it.   Wink

I find the bottom to be overpowering at times with this combo.  Not bloated or muddy but just, maybe too big.  I love the mid range boost the ZR2 gives sometimes even more than the bass boost.  I think you're on to something when you suggest a ZROCK for the highs.

My hearing goes out between 14kHz and 15kHz and I never find the BBs lacking in high end sweetness.
Back to top
 
 

ZLC
Technics 1200G TT w/ Ortofon Jubilee MC cart
ZMC1
ZP3 (25th A Mods)
ZR2 (25th A Mods) -- currently not in use
CSP3 (25th A mods)
ZMA (25th A mods)
Homemade Big Betsy Speakers (F15s)
Silver Cabling
DIY Isolation platforms under amps & TT.
  IP Logged
Lon
Seasoned Member
****


"Love without
guts is
worthless!"
Philip K. Dick

Posts: 18303
Re: Steve's BIG BETSY Project
Reply #665 - 08/30/19 at 16:47:35
 
If you look or search within the thread you will see that Steve has commented on the ZROCK2 with the Big Betsys. . . .
Back to top
 
 

HR-1,ZTPRE,ZBIT,ZROCK2,SE84UFO3-25th x2, CSP3-25th.Taboo Mk IV; Rega RP3 w all GrooveTracer mods PS Audio: DMP+DSD,P15,NPC,PowerBases,AC-12 pwr cbls, Reference spkr cbls;Mapleshade:Samson V3;;VooDoo:Cremona+Amati intrcncts, Iso-Pods;headphones:PM1,HD800S,ZMF Ori
  IP Logged
ZZuZZaXX
Verified Member
**




Posts: 37
Re: Steve's BIG BETSY Project
Reply #666 - 08/30/19 at 17:23:10
 
I don't mean to hijack this post but I have a ZORCK question.  I recently acquired an older set of Klipsh Forte loudspeakers.  How does a ZORCK work with a speaker with extensive low to start.  I'm hoping the ZORCK can sweeten the mids and highs.
Back to top
 
 
  IP Logged
Archie
Seasoned Member
****




Posts: 2293
Re: Steve's BIG BETSY Project
Reply #667 - 08/30/19 at 18:07:31
 
I've scanned back a bit and in Steve's post #490, he had this to say:   Quote:
With regard to the differences between the two and how the ZROCK2 plays into it...

The Crystal 10 in the smaller baffle with a ZROCK2 sounds similar to the Big Betsy without a ZROCK2, as predicted by the difference in baffle size and QTS differences in the drivers.


I remember posts where he explained why he doesn't use the ZR2 generally (e.g., #304) and I haven't found where he tried and evaluated it with the BBs.

I think I may be the only one using it with BBs.  I could live without it only if I'd never heard what it does to the BBs (and other speakers I've had it in front of).

ZZ..., The ZR2 boosts the lows that are rolled off in most recordings.  My HR1s have excellent low end capability but it took the ZR2 to make them shine.  I find a sweetening and thickening of the low-mids (female vocal range) but nothing in the highs.  By contrast, the F15s roll off fairly strongly below 50Hz, so in my room I find the ZR2 necessary to compensate for both the drivers and the music.  (subject to my comment above)
Back to top
 
 

ZLC
Technics 1200G TT w/ Ortofon Jubilee MC cart
ZMC1
ZP3 (25th A Mods)
ZR2 (25th A Mods) -- currently not in use
CSP3 (25th A mods)
ZMA (25th A mods)
Homemade Big Betsy Speakers (F15s)
Silver Cabling
DIY Isolation platforms under amps & TT.
  IP Logged
Steve Deckert
Administrator
*****


If the 1st watt
sucks why continue?

Posts: 5082
Re: Steve's BIG BETSY Project
Reply #668 - 08/30/19 at 18:51:55
 
Archie,

I use the ZROCK2 with the Big Betsy as well but it's source/recording dependent.  Often it's barely on or bypassed with the Big Betsy/F15 combo. If a recording can benefit from a sweeter midrange I'll have it barely on. ; )  But keep in mind this is with the CSP325 preamp.  Without the preamp, the ZROCK2 would likely be left on 90% of the time and turned up a bit higher.

Steve
Back to top
 
 
WWW   IP Logged
Archie
Seasoned Member
****




Posts: 2293
Re: Steve's BIG BETSY Project
Reply #669 - 08/30/19 at 22:55:06
 
I have the anniversary modified CSP3 in front of my ZR2 and although I've turned it down some, I still prefer it to not.  And when it's too much, I'm generally too lazy to get up and adjust it.  Now, if there was ever a component in need of a remote!   Cheesy

I do generally find it too much with newer music, the kind that has the driving bass beat.  Must be electronic "drum" or something.
Back to top
 
 

ZLC
Technics 1200G TT w/ Ortofon Jubilee MC cart
ZMC1
ZP3 (25th A Mods)
ZR2 (25th A Mods) -- currently not in use
CSP3 (25th A mods)
ZMA (25th A mods)
Homemade Big Betsy Speakers (F15s)
Silver Cabling
DIY Isolation platforms under amps & TT.
  IP Logged
Lon
Seasoned Member
****


"Love without
guts is
worthless!"
Philip K. Dick

Posts: 18303
Re: Steve's BIG BETSY Project
Reply #670 - 08/30/19 at 23:54:19
 
It's mostly the mastering, most new music is mastered so "loud" that there is no "breathing room" in the music and the ZROCK likes to fill in the breathing room. . . . That's how it seems to me.
Back to top
 
 

HR-1,ZTPRE,ZBIT,ZROCK2,SE84UFO3-25th x2, CSP3-25th.Taboo Mk IV; Rega RP3 w all GrooveTracer mods PS Audio: DMP+DSD,P15,NPC,PowerBases,AC-12 pwr cbls, Reference spkr cbls;Mapleshade:Samson V3;;VooDoo:Cremona+Amati intrcncts, Iso-Pods;headphones:PM1,HD800S,ZMF Ori
  IP Logged
johnnycopy
Verified Member
**




Posts: 21
Re: Steve's BIG BETSY Project
Reply #671 - 08/31/19 at 01:56:13
 
As a former regular of hawthorne audio forum, open baffles have been in my life for 10 years

I have Trios, which consist of two 15 inch open baffle bass drivers one below and one above the 15 inch sterling midrange driver (with a 10 pound concentrically mounted compression tweeter).  Now midrange is a strange name for this driver cause it can play fantastically well without bass augmentation, but that was its designation.

Randy knows the hawthorne trio baffle layout and perhaps randy also had the 15 inch mids though not sure if his were the standard or sterling range

Steve, The Back and forth discussion you are sharing between the 10 and 15 inch drivers on the open baffle remind me of what darrel hawthorne talked often about after he worked to design his own 10 inch midrange driver.

He ended up preferring the 15 for larger scale, rock, synth music, with the 10 best on more closely miked, acoustic, vocal stuff.

It would have been interesting to have tried your zrock on those10’s.

for a change of pace i also bought a set of betsys. I built crude plywood square open baffles which can stand alone, or can be inserted directly into my trio baffles (replacing the hawthorne 15 inch mid compression tweeter) so i can hear the betsys on one baffle surrounded abive and below by the 2 15 inch bass augmenters.

There certainly is music i prefer with the betsys, but s larger portion of my music is more enjoyable with my trios.

Along with the msin speakers, i have four subs i can bring in and sdjust depending on configuration.

To be fair i have not heard the effects of your zrock which may have helped the hawthorne 10 inch drivers and certainly could help the betsy up to her limits.

I do run out if steam on the betsys though as they just can't do some of the types of music i listen to at the levels i enjoy.  Kraftwerk radioacivity from the mix album needs volume!!

I am really enjoying listening to you and all contributors on this thread and appreciate your willingness to continue to experiment and to improve your products.

I have had your amps and older versions of your fostex speakers and thoroughly enjoyed them all.

Keep up the good work, and i will be reading and watching with great interest!

Back to top
 
 
  IP Logged
Steve Deckert
Administrator
*****


If the 1st watt
sucks why continue?

Posts: 5082
Re: Steve's BIG BETSY Project
Reply #672 - 08/31/19 at 03:35:16
 
John,

I appreciate the kind words, and wisdom.  The track has Big Betsy written all over it.  Fun stuff!

Steve
Back to top
 
 
WWW   IP Logged
Brian
Seasoned Member
****




Posts: 744
Re: Steve's BIG BETSY Project
Reply #673 - 08/31/19 at 04:42:02
 
I thank you, Steve for the lesson.  
I listened to some of that Rua JoAo Pereira da Rosa - Volupias music on my $30 computer speakers, and I see what you are talking about. A very vivid recording! It must be unsettling on high fidelity equipment!

Brian
Back to top
 
 
  IP Logged
Steve Deckert
Administrator
*****


If the 1st watt
sucks why continue?

Posts: 5082
Re: Steve's BIG BETSY Project
Reply #674 - 08/31/19 at 04:51:19
 



I just noticed that the shadows of the Big Betsy speakers on the carpet are creating a perfect arc.  Not only that, but the exact 10 foot arc the speakers are placed on relative to the listening chair... how ZEN is that? It's an unmistakable sign from the Audio Gods.  See how they work!



Steve
Back to top
 
 
WWW   IP Logged
Archie
Seasoned Member
****




Posts: 2293
Re: Steve's BIG BETSY Project
Reply #675 - 08/31/19 at 16:30:01
 
Don't those tubular bells start to resonate when music is playing?  That's got to influence the overall sound.  Seriously, maybe I need some of those.
Back to top
 
 

ZLC
Technics 1200G TT w/ Ortofon Jubilee MC cart
ZMC1
ZP3 (25th A Mods)
ZR2 (25th A Mods) -- currently not in use
CSP3 (25th A mods)
ZMA (25th A mods)
Homemade Big Betsy Speakers (F15s)
Silver Cabling
DIY Isolation platforms under amps & TT.
  IP Logged
bokat57
Senior Member
***




Posts: 60
Re: Steve's BIG BETSY Project
Reply #676 - 08/31/19 at 18:34:58
 
How are these BIG BETSY w/ 15" driver in the near field ? I am about 7-8 feet from the speakers.

Thanks
Bob
Back to top
 
 

SE84UFO25 PS Audio DirectStream Omega Super 3S
Fanless PC / Roon / Qobuz
  IP Logged
dank
Seasoned Member
****


pair of dual 18
Imperials

Posts: 392
Re: Steve's BIG BETSY Project
Reply #677 - 08/31/19 at 18:42:19
 
Moved my OB's a couple days ago and saw that my bases weren't as rigid as they should be.  Added some braces that really stiffened things up.  They also act as vertical stiffeners for the OB.



Then I built a couple of dust covers, being they are in my workshop I feel I need to cover them.




Here's the pair:




The speakers are quite bright.  This can be very good, but can also be dangerous in that it opens the door to setting them too harsh via volume and/or certain music.  I'll be quite interested in how Steve's compare to mine and what the Zrock2 does come this October (which is getting closer every day).


Dan
Back to top
 
 
  IP Logged
lazb
Seasoned Member
****




Posts: 287
Re: Steve's BIG BETSY Project
Reply #678 - 08/31/19 at 19:44:56
 
how about covering/protecting the back side, Dan?
Back to top
 
 
  IP Logged
Archie
Seasoned Member
****




Posts: 2293
Re: Steve's BIG BETSY Project
Reply #679 - 08/31/19 at 20:46:45
 
I wouldn't say good or bad near field but I find I sit as far from them as I can when I really want to listen.  I think 7 or 8 feet would be fine.  The size of the room might be a consideration.
Back to top
 
 

ZLC
Technics 1200G TT w/ Ortofon Jubilee MC cart
ZMC1
ZP3 (25th A Mods)
ZR2 (25th A Mods) -- currently not in use
CSP3 (25th A mods)
ZMA (25th A mods)
Homemade Big Betsy Speakers (F15s)
Silver Cabling
DIY Isolation platforms under amps & TT.
  IP Logged
Palomino
Seasoned Member
****




Posts: 2286
Re: Steve's BIG BETSY Project
Reply #680 - 08/31/19 at 21:06:50
 
I think mine sound fine nearfield.  I would guess mine at 7.5’ apart and that about the same distance to my ears.   Completely disappear.
Back to top
 
 

i7 Mac Mini with LPSU/SSD running Audirvana 3.5, Uptone Audio Regen on LPSU, Mytek Brooklyn DAC+, Ven Haus DIY Silver ICs, 25th Anniversary Zen, PS Audio P5 Power Supply, PS Audio Power Cords, Zen Styx Speaker Wire, DIY Big Betsy and Crystal 10 Open Baffle Speaker
  IP Logged
Archie
Seasoned Member
****




Posts: 2293
Re: Steve's BIG BETSY Project
Reply #681 - 08/31/19 at 22:58:54
 
Dank, did you notice any change in sound after you put the stiffeners on?
Back to top
 
 

ZLC
Technics 1200G TT w/ Ortofon Jubilee MC cart
ZMC1
ZP3 (25th A Mods)
ZR2 (25th A Mods) -- currently not in use
CSP3 (25th A mods)
ZMA (25th A mods)
Homemade Big Betsy Speakers (F15s)
Silver Cabling
DIY Isolation platforms under amps & TT.
  IP Logged
Steve Deckert
Administrator
*****


If the 1st watt
sucks why continue?

Posts: 5082
Re: Steve's BIG BETSY Project
Reply #682 - 09/01/19 at 00:37:52
 

Quote:
Don't those tubular bells start to resonate when music is playing? That's got to influence the overall sound. Seriously, maybe I need some of those.


Yes, those large chimes will start playing themselves when you listen to music.  This is why I had to make leather dampers for each one. They are split in the back with a magnetic seam.

Steve
Back to top
 
 
WWW   IP Logged
Steve Deckert
Administrator
*****


If the 1st watt
sucks why continue?

Posts: 5082
Re: Steve's BIG BETSY Project
Reply #683 - 09/01/19 at 02:08:30
 
Quote:
Steve ..... many thanks for the kind words concerning the Betsy baffles.
However, I usually chalk up any modest success I have had in my speaker building projects to the proverbial "blind squirrel finding an occasional acorn" .....



Back to top
 
 
WWW   IP Logged
Steve Deckert
Administrator
*****


If the 1st watt
sucks why continue?

Posts: 5082
Re: Steve's BIG BETSY Project
Reply #684 - 09/01/19 at 02:24:43
 



The Corner Horns behind your baffles make kick ass bass traps if you short the voice coils with a jumper wire.

Steve
Back to top
 
 
WWW   IP Logged
Steve Deckert
Administrator
*****


If the 1st watt
sucks why continue?

Posts: 5082
Re: Steve's BIG BETSY Project
Reply #685 - 09/01/19 at 04:24:33
 

Boy I love Apple almost as much as Microsoft...

I'm setting in front of a bad ass video editing / creating machine that I've used to create basically all the videos on this web site, and now with some more forced upgrades nothing is working right.  

I just made a great video and the damn sound has ticks in it.  If we ALL had one hour of our life back for every hour of life wasted in front of a computer that was almost but not quite working right or melting down in front of your face, we would all have another 20 years.  Someone has to pay for this.

Anyway, we'll have to do this the old fashioned way.  I'll tell you about the unedited video clip, and you watch it.


Let me do it in the next post.

Steve
Back to top
 
 
WWW   IP Logged
Steve Deckert
Administrator
*****


If the 1st watt
sucks why continue?

Posts: 5082
Re: Steve's BIG BETSY Project
Reply #686 - 09/01/19 at 04:35:28
 

SO, I've been wanting to show all of you how I measure loudspeakers in a way that makes sense to the way our mind works, as opposed to an engineer with two pocket protectors and 41 pens. This came about during the process of measuring the Big Betsy and BBJ open baffle speakers. Of course first I measure the speaker with a gated response and then measure the speaker in room from the listening position which is to say measuring the room and the speaker and then look at it and compare it with other speakers measured in the same space and waste hours learning nothing.  

Sure you can identify some room/speaker issues and work on them, but I'm talking about looking at a frequency response chart, like the two Dank posted earlier and realizing that they tell you virtually nothing. Just some feel good graphs to publish with no clue what the speaker sounds like.

Myself, I don't care what the speaker sound sounds like, I am in a room where a loudspeaker is placed and therefor a part of. I want to see on a graph what I am hearing, and I want to see it in real time, and in a way that makes sense with concrete numbers I can work from. I want to see what music measures like in my room, not impulse response or pink noise or frequency sweeps.

This is how I do that while listening to music.... and measuring loudspeakers while I am listening to them.
Just watch the video and study the peak notes which are tracked, and you will see what frequencies are responsible for the sounds you hear.

https://decware.wistia.com/medias/bcsykv14ky

When I am really trying to digest something sometimes I will record it with this device, and then play it back over and over as I watch it.  I'm pretty sure I have more hours staring at this real time graphic as I listen than I would care to admit over the past many years. Easily 100's of hours. You speculate where you think sounds live and you are wrong. You think you need response to 40K and < 20Hz, you are wrong. What you need is the correct tilt for a given room, which is perfectly illustrated in this video. See, high frequencies operate by different rules than low frequencies therefor to the human ear, they need not be as loud and should not be as loud.  

For those of you who are watching the video multiple times, you might notice that near the end of the video the lowest note you hear drops way deep yet the graph reads around 60+ Hz or so...

Let me say it again.

The loudest, lowest note in the video by the graph measures over 60Hz despite being obviously lower sounding than the 49Hz we see reoccurring throughout the video.

What this is telling you is that the low bass note is a seed, and the harmonic is the amplifier that determines how mean and how loud the seed will sound. My guess is that the low note we hear is probably 32Hz but because it is perhaps 6db or more lower in amplitude than the over 60Hz harmonic, we don't see it on the graph.

But, when we look at a speakers frequency response we assume that if we want to hear 32Hz sound as loud as 60Hz, the line must be flat between those two points which is to say the -3B point must be well below 32 Hz. How easily fooled we are, and how little we actually know.


Steve
Back to top
 
 
WWW   IP Logged
Steve Deckert
Administrator
*****


If the 1st watt
sucks why continue?

Posts: 5082
Re: Steve's BIG BETSY Project
Reply #687 - 09/01/19 at 05:34:25
 

Dank, nice upgrade for sure, on both counts!  BTW, that cool fixed biased zen amp you built a while back... have you hooked that to your Big Betsy speakers yet? You really don't want a solid state amp on a .7 QTS speaker unless is has little or no feedback...  hang a damn triode on it man and report back.

Steve
Back to top
 
 
WWW   IP Logged
Steve Deckert
Administrator
*****


If the 1st watt
sucks why continue?

Posts: 5082
Re: Steve's BIG BETSY Project
Reply #688 - 09/01/19 at 05:42:24
 

Quote:
Steve ..... many thanks for the kind words concerning the Betsy baffles.
However, I usually chalk up any modest success I have had in my speaker building projects to the proverbial "blind squirrel finding an occasional acorn" .....


Or there's this...



Hehehe...

Steve
Back to top
 
 
WWW   IP Logged
Steve Deckert
Administrator
*****


If the 1st watt
sucks why continue?

Posts: 5082
Re: Steve's BIG BETSY Project
Reply #689 - 09/02/19 at 04:24:35
 
Quote:
Boy I love Apple almost as much as Microsoft...

I'm setting in front of a bad ass video editing / creating machine that I've used to create basically all the videos on this web site, and now with some more forced upgrades nothing is working right.  

I just made a great video and the damn sound has ticks in it.  If we ALL had one hour of our life back for every hour of life wasted in front of a computer that was almost but not quite working right or melting down in front of your face, we would all have another 20 years.  Someone has to pay for this.

Anyway, we'll have to do this the old fashioned way.  I'll tell you about the unedited video clip, and you watch it.


Let me do it in the next post.

Steve


Wow, quoting myself... hmmm.  Well I found the problem.  IMOVIE doesn't like the sound file format in MP4 imported videos. Change the videos to MOV and then import them and no problem.  Well almost, the sound comes out perfect, but now the video is trashed.  You get to cut the sound from the video and stitch them back together.  Isn't that exiting.  He Bill Gates, instead of going to dinner tonight with friends, why not cut and past and stitch together some audio and video files while researching why this damn crap doesn't work?!?! Classic example of we have a problem here Scottie, and a decision was made to not do anything about it, and not say anything about it knowing an incompatibility with MP4 will cost the company more than pissed off people who don't know exactly what to blame the problem on.  Good job Apple. Or from perhaps their point of view good job Microsoft for making more crap.

So anyway, I have the video done now, so we no longer have to do it the old fashioned way...

-Steve
Back to top
 
 
WWW   IP Logged
Steve Deckert
Administrator
*****


If the 1st watt
sucks why continue?

Posts: 5082
Re: Steve's BIG BETSY Project
Reply #690 - 09/02/19 at 04:51:04
 
We just have to wait 51 minutes for the video to upload...
Back to top
 
 
WWW   IP Logged
Steve Deckert
Administrator
*****


If the 1st watt
sucks why continue?

Posts: 5082
Re: Steve's BIG BETSY Project
Reply #691 - 09/02/19 at 06:20:04
 

51 minutes my ass....  and really, how hard is it to calculate the size of a file and the the bite rate of the transfer to predict how long it will take?
Funny how in the 1980's we never had any issues with getting it within a minute or two, and that was at 300bps for Christ sake.  Now you have 10MBPS and we can't really narrow it down by +/- 50%....  you know with all the background tasks going on and the perpetual data harvesting who the hell knows how long anything will take. What a cluster F. I hope whoever was in charge of this gets the stale McDonalds breakfast sandwich I had to eat this morning ; )

A little dark humor to brighten your day : )

Steve

OMG... it literally says "uploading 53% - 49 minutes remaining" !!!  I give up.
Back to top
 
 
WWW   IP Logged
Steve Deckert
Administrator
*****


If the 1st watt
sucks why continue?

Posts: 5082
Re: Steve's BIG BETSY Project
Reply #692 - 09/02/19 at 07:15:11
 
Woohoo it's only 1:14 A.M. !!!  The video is finally uploaded and transcoded for your viewing pleasure...





Steve
Back to top
 
 
WWW   IP Logged
Ellsworth
Seasoned Member
****




Posts: 107
Re: Steve's BIG BETSY Project
Reply #693 - 09/02/19 at 16:53:47
 
I have been following this thread with great interest and am very intrigued.  I am eager to jump into the OB waters but want to do a sanity check first.  As a point of reference, my 25th Anniversary UFO is feeding Omego Super Alnico monitors supplemented by ribbon supertweeters and an Omega Deep 8 sub.

My challenge in trying open baffle is that I can't have the speakers on the floor and need to create OB speakers that sit on top of the stands that the Omegas sit on.  This has me concerned that if I use 8 inch drivers,  bass will be severely lacking even with the subwoofer support  

To try to emulate the Betsy look, I am thinking of creating wings on hinges to allow for a squared front that then opens into something resembling the Betsy shape.  With that design, they would look similar and have the same visual footprint as the Omega monitors when they are not in use.

All of this is necessary because my living room is my listening room and I can only get away with so much.   Does this approach have a glaring problem that I am missing?

Thanks for any input.
Back to top
 
 
  IP Logged
Archie
Seasoned Member
****




Posts: 2293
Re: Steve's BIG BETSY Project
Reply #694 - 09/02/19 at 17:23:37
 
It is amazing to see where most of the music lives.
Back to top
 
 

ZLC
Technics 1200G TT w/ Ortofon Jubilee MC cart
ZMC1
ZP3 (25th A Mods)
ZR2 (25th A Mods) -- currently not in use
CSP3 (25th A mods)
ZMA (25th A mods)
Homemade Big Betsy Speakers (F15s)
Silver Cabling
DIY Isolation platforms under amps & TT.
  IP Logged
Brian
Seasoned Member
****




Posts: 744
Re: Steve's BIG BETSY Project
Reply #695 - 09/03/19 at 05:09:40
 
I thank you, Steve for the educational video. I think if I had a most musical system that only played from 60 Hz to about 8KHz, and were offered frequency extension at the trade of musical quality, I would not accept the trade.  

Brian
Back to top
 
 
  IP Logged
Palomino
Seasoned Member
****




Posts: 2286
Re: Steve's BIG BETSY Project
Reply #696 - 09/03/19 at 12:12:52
 
Ells,

I am not sure you will get the full Betsy experience with wings.  While they will help with bass production, I don’t think you’ll get the full “baffle as a transducer” effect. Also I would worry about vibration at the hinge.  I have used “piano hinges” in the past to minimize this but was using much smaller drivers.
Back to top
 
 

i7 Mac Mini with LPSU/SSD running Audirvana 3.5, Uptone Audio Regen on LPSU, Mytek Brooklyn DAC+, Ven Haus DIY Silver ICs, 25th Anniversary Zen, PS Audio P5 Power Supply, PS Audio Power Cords, Zen Styx Speaker Wire, DIY Big Betsy and Crystal 10 Open Baffle Speaker
  IP Logged
Geno
Seasoned Member
****


Without music, life
would be a mistake.
Nietzsche

Posts: 1316
Re: Steve's BIG BETSY Project
Reply #697 - 09/03/19 at 15:06:13
 
Ellsw,

Why do you have to have them on stands? Can't they sit where the stands are? The driver will work better, from a bass standpoint, closer to the floor.

And the biggest thing with open baffle is to get them about 3 ft. from the wall behind.
Back to top
 
 

SE84UFO(25th Mods) / CSP3
Cambr. Audio CXN (ModWright) / Cambr. Audio CXC / ZBIT
Technics 1210 MK5 (KAB Mods) - KAB/Ortof ProS 40 cart / ZP3 (25th Mods)
Otari MX5050 R2R
ZLC Power Cond. w/ Decware power cable
Lii Crystal 10 Open Baffles / Lii W-15 Bass OB's
  IP Logged
Ellsworth
Seasoned Member
****




Posts: 107
Re: Steve's BIG BETSY Project
Reply #698 - 09/03/19 at 23:13:00
 
Thanks for the comments.  The biggest reason that I need them on the stands is that my speaker stands are up against a bench/stereo rack that is 18” tall and runs across the entire wall.  It is an unusual setup but it allows me to get the monitor  speakers 2.5 feet from the wall.  

I could conceivably create a baffle that extends to the floor but has the driver located above the bench/rack about 3 feet from the wall.  The bottom of the baffle would be about 1 foot in front of the stereo rack but at least the driver would have room to breath.

Assuming that the wife approves of the look would that be a more reasonable approach?  

Thanks again for the comments.  This forum has always been a great wealth of knowledge.

Back to top
 
 
  IP Logged
Archie
Seasoned Member
****




Posts: 2293
Re: Steve's BIG BETSY Project
Reply #699 - 09/04/19 at 01:51:38
 
Ells, I've tried my BBs pretty much up against a wall (they have a minimum 12+ inch gap due to the rear support) and they still sound great.  Plus, your rack behind won't act like a solid flat wall.  I don't know if it would help or hurt since I'm too new to open baffle speakers to have a handle on what the rear wave does.  If you build a pair of these I think you'll be so blown away that you'll come up with a compromise with the wife!   Wink
Back to top
 
 

ZLC
Technics 1200G TT w/ Ortofon Jubilee MC cart
ZMC1
ZP3 (25th A Mods)
ZR2 (25th A Mods) -- currently not in use
CSP3 (25th A mods)
ZMA (25th A mods)
Homemade Big Betsy Speakers (F15s)
Silver Cabling
DIY Isolation platforms under amps & TT.
  IP Logged
Pages: 1 ... 12 13 14 15 16 ... 31
Send Topic Print