Well ..... here we go .....







Larger photos here, here and here.

At this point, I will only say that I can only guess what Steve is hearing with the BIG BAFFLES and the 25th Anniversary amp.

The more surface area a baffle has, the more bass it will make.

Good grief .....

Randy

Hi Geno,

Still trying to wrap my head (and ears) around what I am hearing.
The drivers have zero break in time, but what I'm hearing so far is positive.

Stay tuned.

Best wishes,
Randy

Palomino asked:  "Are there any less exotic woods with decent density and weight?"

American oak in White, Red, Pin or Live varieties would be heavy and hard. Live oak always seemed the densest to me.  Red is probably the most porous.


Brian

Another thing that happens with the big baffles that doesn't happen with the small ones is that the visual of the baffle is so overpowering it is a mind melter as your brain tries to connect the sound to the speakers.  I have to close my eyes with these big baffles and when I do, I can not tell where they are.  Even in Randys smaller room, the same would be true.

As far as alternate approaches using hardwoods, there is no reason why a person couldn't cut 3/4 boards into 1-3/4 or 2 inch strips and glue them together to create the baffles. Oak would be a great wood for it and by gluing it up from strips you would have a nice quarter-sawn look.

Steve

In the Chicago area we have Owl hardwoods.  I'm like a kid in a candy store there.  All kinds of exotics.  Huge tree slabs.  Butcher block, you name it.

They do 1-2 cuts for free and a buck a cut after that.  Precision cuts for sure.

They make stuff too.  I had them make me a maple mantle to match my family room floating shelves (which I made) and the maple cabinets.

I am going to put these drivers in my MDF Palomino Audio project baffles that are just sitting around to run them in.  Then I'll decide on my next course of action once I see how I like them.

Yeah, it was a bit of an impulse buy, but Steve's enthusiasm and my desire to get back to a single driver cross-over less design plus the price led to me pulling the trigger.

I usually wait for others to try and/or ponder my purchases for months.

I really like my speakers right now.  I will likely try some new bass drivers but other than that, I think the PAP has run its course.  They are a bit franken-speakers though, and thus my interest in these drivers.  Simplify.

I have exchanged a few emails with Leo from Lii.  Seems like a decent chap.  He is interested in attending Decfest.  That could be fun.

I did inventory on surplus butcher block tops I've salvaged from jobs and with a couple of glue-ups I can easily get blanks big enough to cut a pair of these baffles.  My stock is 1 1/2 inches thick and hardrock maple.  Worth the effort and $450 for the drivers?

As always, Steve's enthusiasm is infectious!

It is exciting to know this is all going to transpire into a great conversation as everyone gets them built and begins to compare notes !

This weekend I am going to restore the baffles to their original idea which was to use the vintage Alnico Utah drivers in parallel with the matching Alnico Betsy Baffles.  I'll take some pictures. and report the results.  The first time I did this was the best imaging I ever got, and wonderful timbre with great low-bass and reduced mid-bass which really opened up the sound like a spacious venue instead of an in-your-face 1st row experience.

Tonight I am listening to them with the F15 drivers on the 25th Anniversary Zen Triode amplifier, and it is making me realize that none of us really know what the drivers sound like!  I mean, I have been listening to them for the past two days with many different amplifiers, and when I got the UFO25 back in it was like a welcome friend! So then I decided to change the input tube from the supplied 7DJ8 to the warmer 6N5P, and in my room it made the speakers sound more like you would imagine 15 inch drivers would sound like.  Slower, warmer, thicker...  This alone made enough of a change that I no longer loved the speakers in such a supportive way.  In a harder room, it would have been glorious.  So, thank God for DECFEST every year, because it gives everyone who attends in person and everyone who listens in on the live broadcast a real good baseline of how I'm referencing the sound of these speakers.

Obviously being a touch rolled they are going to like a higher grade NOS tube because those tubes have greater focus, speed, and dynamics.  This all helps the 15 inch driver sound more like a smaller driver with greater speed.

Palo,
It sounds like you need to make some sort of risers to get the driver up off of the floor. I'm thinking something with "wings" Perhaps with the curves cut on them. Like a "H" frame that raises everything up 16" or so.
Just spitballing here.
Get me the sizes of what you have now and I'll have my new apprentice draw it up.  

All you gents try to keep in mind what Steve labeled, Randy’s “Sacred Geometry” when designing your baffles. For whatever the reason, the barrel shape, with the driver a lower height from the ground, works. That is why Steve made Big Bertha to scale. There are mystical forces at work here. I really think that, and it makes sense with all Steve’s talk of UFO’s, that Steve and Randy are both aliens. How else can you explain such an off the wall design having these results

Palo,
Project one this Monday morning will be a discussion with my design guys on how we can modify what you have to end up with what Steve has.
Believe it or not this isn't that far off of what we do every day, take something that we already have and modify it into something that we need. Though working in MDF is way easier than 2" thick steel.

Just the cost.  It seems to dig a little deeper actually.

After living with the F15 drivers in a pair of my low boy baffles for a couple of days, I'm ready to share a few thoughts .....

Since this thread is primarily about Steve's BIG BETSY Project, I thought it best to post my thoughts in the forum Steve has generously created for the Caintuck Audio products.

If you wish to read them ..... they can be found here.

Happy listening,
Randy

Well, I might have to see if LII's promotion is still on and get both!  One advantage to the 10" is a smaller baffle.  I would like to get efficiency well above the HR1s though.  Is there any way to calculate or predict efficiency from the spec'd numbers?

The horsepower/torque analogy is helpful but how does the lower extension spec tie in?  Do the 10" just go into a region that isn't needed?

BTW, lately my HR1 bass is amazing.  It may be the music I'm currently favoring but I am consistantly getting deep rumblings that I feel in my chest.  I think Ziggy's mods are a big factor.  They seem way better than anything I remember pre-mod.  One thing though is that I'm listening just about as high as I can go with my meters starting to jump.  I'd like more volume.

Seems that the evolution of speaker design at Decware went from MTM then to radial and now large driver open baffle. Fascinating journey. With all this buzz about 10 inch drivers, 15 inch, thickness of the wood, etc., something mighty profound is bound to result.

UPDATE 7/21/19

As promised, and update about the Big Betsy Baffles set up in my originally intended array.

First here is another picture of the F15 from the back.  Note the F15 is actually grey in color, this pair I carefully changed the color to black.



Steve

I'm trying to figure out what some of these driver spec's mean and I found this site that has some useful information.

https://www.eminence.com/support/understanding-loudspeaker-data/

Steve, those baffles are really pretty.  I especially like that you used linseed oil on them.  I'm thinking though that the oak could use a few coats of black satin paint.

And thank you for that good front picture with and without the driver installed.  How important is the recess?  Randy doesn't seem to recess his Betsys.  (Or does he?)

Here is a rear view of the complex crossover and wiring used for my array.  If you want the sound to be warm and a touch fat wire the speakers in phase.  If you want no overlap and to simply extended the bass of the Betsy Alnico speakers, then wiring is done out of phase.  That is to say the small Betsy and the big Betsy are wired as a pair either in-phase or out-of-phase.  The imaging is in the category of best I ever heard with this particular out-of-phase arrangement.  The sound stage is perfect and huge.  You are in row 10 or 20 depending on the size of the venue when recorded.

The integration between these two drivers is so perfect you would never know it was two drivers.

Sadly I won't be demoing this array approach at DECFEST because changing out drivers in the baffles during the fest is just asking for trouble.  The F15 drivers will be what we demo the Big Betsy Baffles with.

The four Betsy array from the sitting position.



Steve

I sure like the glow and shine the wax is presenting.

Brian

To quote myself:

Quote:


Damnit. If you were here right now listening to this you would never forgive me for not letting anyone hear it.  It is so flawless on literally every level it checks all the boxes.  The disappearing act is just too much to deal with.  The resolution is insane.  Timbre and every other aspect is so right that it probably needs to be heard.  

Warning, if I do set up this array, and you look at the four baffles and try to figure out where the sound is coming from, your eyes will fall out on the floor and roll under the couch... so Just don't do it.

Steve

Here, I did it.  I superimposed the two images.  This is what I am hearing with this array.



Notice how the listening chair is a balcony seat?  My carpet becomes the edge of the balcony.  You would never want to record on the floor level because all the different instruments would stack behind each other and become a big blur of sound.  From the balcony you can pin-point every sound in space without one ever overlapping the others.  It is perfect clarity.  If the recording was done with two microphones, as all the best ones are, this is how you will hear it.  It is the reference for soundstage reproduction during playback.

See how the small Betsys are nestled in where the bulk of the instruments are, and the big Betsys are reproducing the bigger sounds coming off the walls in the music hall.  It's a near perfect room set up if you want to reproduce sound from this perspective which has always been my goal because believe me, if you can get this to happen, all other recorded music will sound good...no problem.

In contrast, the F15 puts you about 15 feet in front of the grand piano in this same image.  Basically you are nearly on stage by comparison.  That is also pretty thrilling but completely different from this.  This is perspective listening, that is intimate listening or perhaps participatory listening.  Two alter egos of music reproduction.




Here is a smaller image that fits in the frame here without sideways scrolling.



My beautiful listening room as I hear and see it with the lights low.

Steve