Steve,
Do you believe that more mass in a open baffle is a good thing?
The ones that I made are HEAVY, but I have heard others say that it didn't matter.
What's your take?

Like Jeff said:
Damn Steve...

There is no truth to the old saying, “let sleeping dogs lie”!
All I have to do is move a few plants and there is room for those absolutely stunning speakers, I have no doubt they are all you say and then some. Very cool.

It truly never will end will it?

Best Scott

Ignorance is one of my specialties!

Quote:


Hehe... no Scott it never ends, thankfully.  The key to getting through the journey without financial ruin is  A) have gear that sounds so good you don't really care if you do or not.  That way there is no real pain in going without.

Tonight I watched the High End Munich Video on Youtube : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=58Dt0CM-6Uk&feature=youtu.be&t=79 and played the recordings I heard on this system and I realize that the Audio Gods have taken a real favor to Randy with this design because what I am hearing from these large Betsy's are making the video sound rather stupid, and we're still on 2 watts.  I have not heard the speakers on anything more than the 2 watt Zen Triode amplifiers so far.  

As Bob Ziegler, the other ear in the Decware trifecta of straight shooters will recall, the loudest we ever got anything in this room without distortion was with the legendary corner horns driven with the secret Decware OTL amplifier which was basically 20 watts of 6C33C SRPP amplification that I decided was too esoteric and expensive to add to the Decware line.  It was an ass kicker, remember Bob?

Believe it or not these damn baffles with a 2 watt Zen Triode are actually just outperforming that, by about 30% I would say.  I'm afraid to put more power on them because I might get to a nirvana that makes anything less taste like McDonnalds.

In fact, Bob, imagine 4 DNA2 speakers side by side on each channel with the Zen Mystery Amp driving them at full tilt... this probably doesn't go as low, but so far I have not heard anything that would suggest it didn't.  I listened to the famous Halucianenic hippo track from Randy's demo disc and I actually nearly mirrored the performance from the Imperial horns which were using 90dB woofers driven by 60 watt Zen Torii Monoblocks.  

I'm sorry to be so chatty about these speakers, but I'm just trying to capture my mind getting blown in real time and we're at the full burn-in point with these on a well seasoned amplifier, so it is possible to start getting really serious about what they can do well and what if anything they lack, which I already know is nothing.  As I mentioned before, they bring the performance to your listening room with such a live dense presence that you have no idea what the actual recording venue sounded like.  The original small Betsy's in contrast do the opposite which is to transport you to the the venue and accurately reproduce large spaces.  

I'm really starting to wonder what a triple laminated plywood copy of these would sound like.  My guess is so similar most would say the same.  The extra perceptive would give the speed advantage to the solid hardwood, but the extra damping of the plywood or MDF could create a more relaxed sound.  I just know that if you own a low power tube or solid state amplifier, this is going to be the holy grail of bang for the buck, and isn't that ironic because that's what this baffle design has always been.  I thought Decware was the leader in that category, but Randy now sits at the top of that pile.  

All I can say is that if you watch the original Betsy Baffle video I did you can hear for yourself how seemingly impossibly good they are.  Scaled up by 800% it is literally scary.  It completely re-inforces my recommendation for the Caintuck Audio Betsy Baffles.  I think everyone should have a pair regardless of what you have now, because they will constantly challenge your indoctrinations.

Steve

Randy and Steve,
Random thought just popped into my head! Is there any possibility that the "rounded" baffles behave sonicly(sp?) somewhat like the "wings" on Infinity IRS series speakers?

I do wonder about the asymmetrical loading of the drivers?
My OB's have the full range driver offset 1/3 over and are also not in the center of the radius of the baffle, it is not centered on purpose.
I did it because I read that it would help the driver from "beaming"
They seem to sound pretty OK in my room.

I gotta hear these things Steve - they look fantastic!

there is research out there that lends credence to the shape of Randy's baffles.  On first thought, one might think "round" would be good - research shows that "round" is actually one of the worst shapes for OB.  "Irregular" baffle shapes are theoretically the best acoustically.  The same research tends to support mounting the driver "not in the center" of the baffle either.

For my regular Betsy Baffle "kit" that I got from Randy, I modified the baffle base so that it tilts the main baffle back about 15 degrees.  And I added a brace that runs vertically from the top of the base to the top of the baffle, right in the middle, with a half-circle cutout for the back of the Betsy frame and magnet.  This brace is rigidly attached to the middle of the back of the baffle, except for where the Betsy protrudes out the back.  I tend to be a little anal about "mass" and rigidity and thought they needed something...  The wood back brace is 1" think material. Did this make an audible difference?  Who knows, I didn't try them without it.  I just sleep better at night knowing it's there.  And they sound wonderful.  I also had a pair of 945's.  I compared the 945's to the Betsy's a few times.  What I heard, was not what I expected.  To my aging ears, which I'm certain wouldn't reach 15khz in a test, the Betsy's and 945's sounded more alike than different.

With my custom Hawthorne Audio Trio's, which use "mounting plates" to decouple and attach the actual drivers to the main baffle... I have made numerous mounting plates that allow me to use a multitude of full-range mid/hi drivers with the main Hawthorne Trio baffle which has two 15" Augie bass drivers per baffle - four total for the pair. (one 15" at the top, one at the bottom and the full-ranger in the middle).  I have never heard more real, more natural sounding bass.  And there is absolutely no issue with "quantity".  This setup pressurizes the room like nothing I've ever owned or heard.  I think I could lift the house off the foundation with enough volume.  They are more than capable of giving you a "gut massage" in terms of quantity.  They have "bass you can feel" even at low volumes.. just like sitting in the first few rows of a jazz or blues club.
To date, I have ran an Audio Nirvana 15" cast frame ferrite full-ranger in these, an Audio Nirvana 12" cast frame Alnico driver, and been quite pleased.  I just completed mounting plates to run a pair of Betsy W.O.W. drivers paired with Dayton AMT's like Randy demo'd at Decfest in 2017 to run in the center position of the Trio OB's.  I haven't actually put them in the Trio's yet, but I'm expecting "good things" from this configuration.

This thread is putting ideas in my head - not always a good thing.  I have never tried running one of the Augie bass drivers off the same amp as the full-ranger(I use a Torii).  The Audio Nirvana drivers are really efficient... way more than standard Betsy's.  I've never measured them, but I have had the Betsy's and AN's side-by-side and switched back and forth and you have to adjust the volume control significantly.  More volume for Betsy's, less for AN's.
The Augie's have a stated sensitivity of 89db 1w/1m if memory serves.  I don't think one could run an Augie and any of the full-rangers I have tried off the same amp - that's just speculation.  I should probably try it and see.

so many ideas, things to try, experiments - so little time.  Thankfully retirement is approaching - I'm going to be busy for at least a couple of years....  Steve I envy you so much - you have no idea - making a living doing something you love and truly enjoy - that is a blessing my friend - a true blessing.

Giving demos all day today, still at it.  The Big Betsy is just wrecking everything...  Make sure not to play these if someone is interested in any other speakers.

Steve

Yea, ...they'll never be the same again.

After awhile we put the ZKIT60 in and cranked things up a notch. I gained a new appreciation for this amplifier. Guaranteed there is no better sounding 60 watt amplifier made for 800.00 on the planet. You can put my name on that.

It wrecked them really bad and impressed the crap out me as well... great job Dan!

Then as the final lesson for the night, being solid state guys, I told them that some tube gear actually hits a lot harder than solid state, and after hearing the ZKIT60 they simply couldn't believe it.

Up came the Zen Mystery Amp.  Only 40 watts, but it simply hammered it. They were literally stunned. I know they're talking about it right now on the long drive home.

It was the first time I heard the Big Betsy on anything more than 2 watts and I was extremely pleased at how well they deal with power. Never does the room become compressed, and OMG the hit is just insane.

That said, and as I pointed out, the difference in performance between the two amps was about 20%.  However the difference in price was 7.5 times as much!   $800 vs. $6000 so the clear winner in that equation is the ZKIT60.  Perhaps the all time king of diminishing returns, which btw, is why we carry it.  If you want power that sound like Decware tube gear, but don't have the bread for it, this IS your answer, trust me.

And these damn speakers -- are another UFO25... When the two are paired together it is to put it mildly, memorable. This is the kamasutra of audio, no question about it!

And here's the best part!!! Speakers are too heavy to beam up so those UFO's in the videos are going to have to come up with a new strategy!


In all honesty, after 30 years of doing this, and walking through many hi-end shows with X-RAY vision, I never dreamed a stereo could sound like this, or much less that it would be mine.  God I love my job!

Mr Steve,
Did you do any trials with the Seeburg drivers and the Betsy, or just scrapped the idea ?

Just wondering, I have a set of the same 15" Utah drivers, That have never found a home.


Tom in Lafayette

Now the trouble is for me, not being a woodworker, what am I to do? Well I will await Randy’s report on the F-15’s in his baffles. Maybe they’ll be close enough. We’ll see.

this looks to be the driver and ON SALE !
https://www.lii-audio.com/index.php/product/recommended-15-full-range-speaker-dr...

Hi Mike,

I ordered a pair via their website on 7/11/2019.
An email was received on 7/15 telling me that they had shipped with a UPS online tracking number.
When I checked the tracking number, it showed that the speakers actually shipped on 7/12/2019 and they will be delivered on 7/18/2019.

The shipping point of origin is Baldwin Park, CA, United States.
Shipping charge - $49.00

They accept PayPal and seem to be "on the ball" .....

If the drivers are as good as the service, I have high hopes for them.
If they sound anywhere near as good as your AN alnico drivers did in my standard baffles ..... it looks like I might have to make an addition to my product line .....

I recently sent an email to Steve and Bob suggesting that they start building the BIG baffles and offering them in the online store ..... no reply yet. Steve is probably still recovering from building the first pair .....

The BIG baffles are definitely beyond my woodworking tools and skill set ..... but Steve and Bob can probably stay as busy as they want to be offering these beauties (in some configuration).

It's not like Steve has anything else to do ..... other than build 25th anniversary equipment. doing mods, etc. .....

Best wishes,
Randy

Being as happy as I am with the DNA2’s, I’d venture a 10%? of (I bet you gotta pretty good guess)...let’s move this along🤓
Best on this this one, no doubt...
Scott
My offer stands as long as they take a while to build😆

Quote:


4 sheets seems excessive, I'm going with double thick which required 2 sheets, 1 1/2 actually if you can find 3/4 sheets (4' x 6') somewhere.  My radius turned out to be 43" and the measurements seem very close:  42" high, 36" wide at the widest point, and 24" wide at the top and bottom.  They are fairly large, standing almost as tall as the corner horns.

Once the feet go on, do they stand vertical or are they tilted back a few degrees?  I guess I'm just planning on tilting them enough so they seem to best point to the main listening chair.  Also, I see the speaker is mounted from the front with a router round over bit used on the back, is there a reason for this?  Would I get worse results if I used the round over bit on the front and mounted the speaker from the rear (probably with speaker cloth between the speaker and the board)?  

HD and some of the big box stores sell butcher block countertops in sizes that would accommodate 42" x 36" slabs. They are from 1.5" to 1.75" thick. They stain beautifully. I just built an audio rack using it for shelves and all thread rods with stainless steel nuts and washers for the uprights.

For those building the large betsy baffles,

Part of the Betsy Baffle sound is the high mass energy drain for the baffle.  That would be the 4 inch thick bass that it bolts to.  That pretty much sets the angle to 90 degrees, and I have found that optimal on both this large baffle and the original Betsy Baffles.   The bass is better at 90 degrees and the rear wave hits the ceiling and the wall at the same time.  As you tilt them back you drop the rear wave to hitting the wall first.

Also the handle at the top is in my experience critical as it braces the weakest part of the panel.  For the big betsy, large cast iron handles are ideal.

Regarding co mass layer damping on the cheap, I have had good success by using a V-Notch Trowel with flooring adhesive which never really hardens.  Just spread it out on the panel and then place 5 O-Rings on the panel in the glue.  That will set the gap so you can lay the second panel down.  Having air gaps between the trowel marks is a bonus so ideally you want the ridge of the glue notch to rise about 1/16 inch above the thickness of the o-rings.

Also, for those who don't know, the mass of each panel should ideally be different.  3/4" - glue - 3/8" - glue - 5/8"  makes a wicked panel that with the thickness of the adhesive /o-rings ends up at a thickness close to 2 inches.

Having said all that for those who want to try it, there is still no guarantee it will sound better than the solid Wenge and Paduke.  The mass is so different that what works for MDF or plywood is likely not going to work the same with ultra stiff and dense hardwoods.  If it turns out when I measure the baffle for vibration that there is a peak or two, It can always be drained away with some solid brass tuned-weights screwed the back.  They would actually be barrel shaped (ironically) just like the baffle. (hint)


So in summary, 90 degrees, don't skimp on the mass of the rear base it bolts to, and the handle.  Got to have one that is stiffer than the wood it is screwed into.

-Steve

Randy,

Do you recall the cutout diameter for the Augie 15" bass drivers you've built?

Cheers,
Jeff

Thanks for the speedy reply Randy!  That is exactly what I was looking for. Much appreciated my friend!! 👍😁

Lol!  Besides being a super duper OB speaker designer/maker, you are a mind reader! I have a strong suspicion those F15 Lii Audi drivers will sound mighty tasty in those Bubinga baffles you made me. They are heavy and dense as steel!  I was thinking of picking up a pair of F15’s to swap in and give a listen.

Yes, it's going to be a game changer, especially for those with our low power (BIG BALLS) Zen Triode amplifiers... because you finally experience the true performance the amp is capable of.  It's a combination that exceeds sanity on multiple levels.  So, yes, it will be a real treat this year!  It's a good thing I'm not in charge of topping last years fest each and every year, because obviously I couldn't do it, nor could any of us.  This is what the Audio Gods wanted you and me to hear, so come and hear it.


The density thing... African Paduke Janka hardness: 1970,  Wenge is : 1930, however the wedge is twice as hard to cut and feels twice as heavy???

Some interesting specs on Wenge
Average Dried Weight: 54 lbs/ft3 (870 kg/m3)
Specific Gravity (Basic, 12% MC): .72, .87
Janka Hardness: 1,930 lbf (8,600 N)
Modulus of Rupture: 21,990 lbf/in2 (151.7 MPa)
Elastic Modulus: 2,550,000 lbf/in2 (17.59 GPa)


Same specs of African Paduke

Average Dried Weight: 47 lbs/ft3 (745 kg/m3)
Specific Gravity (Basic, 12% MC): .61, .75
Janka Hardness: 1,970 lbf (8,760 N)
Modulus of Rupture: 16,830 lbf/in2 (116.0 MPa)
Elastic Modulus: 1,700,000 lbf/in2 (11.72 GPa)


Steve

An interesting material, if density is a major consideration, is the man-made "quartz" slab that's used for countertops.  This is a combination of stone and resin.  3 cm is readily available but beware, it's heavy as granite.  It seems to be fairly "dead" to vibration -- more like dense wood than stone.  Of course, you'd have to get with a fabricator since cutting and polishing takes special tools.

Pal,
Here is a Janka hardness list for reference:  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Janka_hardness_test

The Bubinga Randy used in my Caintuck bass baffles is 1980 on the scale!

Randy,

Wenge is an excellent tone wood that some luthiers use despite the difficulty to work with. It imparts a rich and precise tone. I have a wenge neck and fingerboard on one of my favorite guitars, and one of my favorite basses (they both have black limbs bodies, I find the combination of these woods excellent).

The guitar:

Update .....

Jeff,
The F15 drivers came in today and Lii Audio's tape measure must be slightly different than mine. The opening in my template is a full 14" as well as the opening in the baffles I mounted them in.
Very tight fit ..... actually a little small ..... at least for the pair they shipped to me.
I'm thinking that 14 1/8" might be better .....

If you decide to buy a pair and mount them in your Bubinga baffles, you will probably have to slightly enlarge the cutout.

Just a heads up .....

Best wishes,
Randy