Yes, I would say that is obvious by your ZMA experiment!

Steve,

Well, I'm still confused about the induced vibration from the supports.  I still think these are orders of magnitude larger than the self-generated internal vibrations.  Have you been able to test how your platforms do with these?  

I agree that ambient seismic levels are generally low.  Except when the local ski area sets off their avalanche bombs!  I don't own a smartphone otherwise I would have tried using the inbuilt accelerometers on my "rack," on my platform and on my amp with music playing.  I can only feel with my hand the change in vibration with and without isolation.  But it's a big difference.

I also have done testing with my ear against the rack and platform.  In that case I was able to discern high frequencies leaking through that I tried to mitigate with a layer of foam.  That's why I  know that any solution to isolation will be a hybrid of materials and techniques.

What I couldn't do much about were any amplifier build issues such as vibrating transformers.  I remember when I first got my ZP3 I had some transformer hum and I found that when I took off the base, hum was reduced 90%.  I tried some rubber between the plate and base but it didn't help much.  I wonder if your platforms couple better to the wood bases and cancel some of the amplifying effect?

Donnie,

I was thinking something was missing from Steve's platform and now I know what it is.  A cup holder!  

Steve, did you try testing the support/table under the platform to give a baseline?

Steve, would it be possible to place the Audio Focus platform on the floor and do the same measurements ?

And also possibly on another table/audio rack that is lower and/or with smaller span (legs closer together).

Just curious as to how important an audio rack's construction is to its contribution to vibrations.

It will improve my mental model but also perhaps enable you to put a blurb in the owners manual for the AF platforms as to where it can be placed for optimum effect.

Thanks.

I think of springs as vibration filters.  Some TTs are so massive that they would be hard to get vibrating and might not need isolation.  My take on TTs is that keeping vibration out of the unit (hence, isolation) beats damping since damping can only reduce damage, not eliminate or avoid it.  Here is a short video demonstration of the effectiveness of damping techniques nevertheless.  Scroll to the bottom of the page.  https://www.ortofon.com/microtech/technologies/technical-rubber  I think a TT needs both isolation and damping.  One more thought on TT isolation is that if isolation colors the sound, it's not effective isolation.  Isolation will expose the true sound, free from coloration.

I'm sure that to accurately characterize the effectiveness of a platform, it needs to be loaded when tested.  However, in the case of a sprung platform, I think a dummy load would be effective since the object is to engage the suspension.

Donnie, I can't answer more than anecdotally.  I've had microphonic effects and feedback cause by vibration.  What it's doing inside to cause it, I don't know.  I've heard better resolution with isolation too.

Vibrations affects capacitors:
Capacitance is inversely proportional to +ve and - ve plates physical distance from each other (which will vary with vibration) and directly proportional to plate area and dielectric media.

Hence vibration is bad as the capacitance changes due to vibration will result in its own dynamics superimposed on the music signal output.

Vibration affects vaccum tubes:
Vibration as well affects tubes in that vibration induces microphonics (tap your finger on a crystal wine glass) which is ultimately carried by the tube output signal. Also I would imagine (not documented anywhere so I am speculating here) the plates and grids not being rigidly welded with stops but rather by insertion into mica or other insulator anchor plate holes or slots cause the relative distances between the cathode, the various grids, screen and the anode to oscillate/vary changing the electron flow from Cathode to anode (my own untested theory).

Here is the results of the heavy vibration test that I applied to the Audio Focus Platforms.

I tested five things.  

1) The vibration in the table top where the platform would sit. I screwed a transducer to the bottom of the table top and hooked it to an amplifier with a signal generator that swept from 40Hz to 250Hz. I chose that range because below 40Hz I couldn't get a strong enough reading on the meter, and the same was true for frequencies above 250Hz.

2) The platform setting on that table top with direct contact to raise it's mass with the transducer in the center. Remember the center is where the high density composite disc is embedded so it should show the lowest amount of vibration compared to the corners or wings as I call them which are basically microphones when loaded and transducers when unloaded.

3) the platform setting on that table top with direct contact but with the transducer at the corner where if this test is successful should give me a higher number than the table itself demonstrating the effectiveness of the resonance that occurs in the corners/wings/floating sections.

4) the platform setting on sorbothane pucks on the table top with the transducer at the corner. This by lowering the mass vs. when the platform was setting directly on the table, should have the highest reading.

5) a solid block of wood just to see what would happen. Not a valid test because the wood was smaller in size than the platform but it was handy so I included it in the tests.


Since the frequency sweep was sampled 57 or more times for each test, and the vibration was different at each sample for each test, the only way to get any meaningful data is to total all the vibration figures for each test.  That gives us the total vibration for each test.

Also, you will notice the columns on the results page differ in length.  This is because I stopped the tests manually.  I probably should have truncated the data at 57 like the first test, but it would have only made the numbers for the platform look even better so I didn't worry about it.

These tests were targeted at how the base deals with vibration coming from below and uses industry standard vibration testing for machine vibration, which is a lot higher than what would typically be seen in a listening room from sound coupling to solid surfaces... nevertheless it is another test that shows the base is capable of absorbing 51% of the energy in the table.

The table, as you will see, is actually mounted to a drill press that weighs about 150lbs. This gave me a stiff, high mass surface that we could light up with vibration for the tests.






One insight I got from these tests is that this platform, quite unlike a solid block of wood, does not really need to be isolated from the table it sets on. Rather than setting on soft sorbothane pads, it could work better in some cases with spikes to directly couple it to the table or just setting directly on the table itself.  Those cases would probably be when the mass of the table top is less than the mass of the platform.  


If any of this is making your brain hurt, think how mine feels, and consider that before you assault me with questions  ; )


Steve

I love your test.

Not trying to be a PITA but was the vibration at the platform corner (where the component feet sit?) slightly higher than for the table itself?

I think this qualifies under Decware Developments, so please read the following post:

https://www.decware.com/cgi-bin/yabb22/YaBB.pl?num=1561942815/759#759

There is a good possibility we could offer these speakers to our customers. Even if we didn't we are going to be offering the same manufactures drivers in two of our own speaker designs, so it's likely to be a development.



Steve

Steve,

Thanks again for the test and being very open and posting them exposing it to scrutiny. This old world openness from you is truly not present in this day and age. The vibration readings in velocity (cm/s) instead of sound pressure (dB) also helps in forming a better understanding of the vibration effects (because among other things dB is a log scale instead of a linear scale and more specifically designed for sound loudness or lack of it).

Trying to figure out the readings in the spreadsheet in the results section of the test video.

I appreciate the effort from you and would like to say at the outset that it is easier of someone after the fact to come in and make comments. That is why I was trying to avoid it these couple of days. But I thought it will help to improve things if questions are asked or perhaps, I am misunderstanding something.

Since the number of readings/data points are not the same for each situation having an average instead of total of the readings would be helpful for true comparison. I think your dampening factor will be greater than 51% you mentioned which works in the favor of the platform.

My only concern looking at the spreadsheet is that the platform corners exhibit higher readings (it may be due to your totaling instead of averaging different number of data points for each case). Concern is because the audio device on top will have it's feet at the corners and ultimately it is form those points that vibration be transferred upwards. Using the center reading preferentially for comparison due to its resin damping directly underneath will skew the results in favor instead of real world effect which is the integration of all of the results of vibration taken all over the platform face (corners, middle and also in between these point (matrix)). This integration of vibration readings across the full surface of the platform could be accomplished by taking readings on an amplifier on top of the platform. This I think actually gives the true indication of how the platform prevents vibrations from affecting the protected device and by how much. The amplifier reading would automatically integrate all of the readings on the surface instead of taking that many readings and calculating a combined resultant.

Thank you again for taking the trouble of recording and posting your results. It is a learning experience for me.

Hi Rapter,

It does impact the process, as everything goes on hold for 10 days.  I usually am feeling pretty generous after the fest, so during the QC process I often do little things to reward people for their patients. You may receive your ZROCK2 with a tube from my private stash, or some small upgrade that you didn't order ; )

Steve

Coming soon...



I'm working on the web page now.

Steve

Agreed! And by all reports thus far, the sound is “acceptable” as well.

Hi Steve,
A wonderful accomplishment!

There is a typing error or something on the catalog page.
The 4th line of text under the speaker picture at the top of the page says:

$499.00 2 inch thick solid hardwood starting at around $4000 a pair with shipping.

I guess that reference to $499 is a carry over from a previous web page.


I am glad you brought forth this tremendous speaker. Very happy for you.

Brian

And finally I'm almost done with the web page for the Zen Audio Focus Platforms!



https://www.decware.com/newsite/ZAFP.html

Steve

I bet the ZAFP’s would work great with turntables too. The feet might not line up properly but I’m sure there’s ways around that.

Steve....I can’t wait to hear this!!  I am sitting here at work burning the midnight oil and patiently waiting.  

With looking to pull the trigger on the SE84UFO25 later this year....I had been wondering how my ERR’s would be able to handle the little Zen Amp.  With these new radial speakers, it sounds like the perfect match made in heaven.  

Dom

read stealthily waiting for a comeback

The TORII JRv2 was released in August 2021.



You can read about it here: https://www.decware.com/cgi-bin/yabb22/YaBB.pl?num=1608681355

and here is the web page:  https://www.decware.com/newsite/TORIIJR.html

Also the Lii Audio/Lii Song speakers were changed with two new models.  The Glory S10 arrived in October just after DECFEST in 2021.  They will be waiting for everyone to hear at DECFEST 2022.  Andrew Robinson Reviewed the current model "Origin S10" which can be seen on our web page for it: https://www.decwareproducts.com/lii-song

Here are the Glory S10 speakers:

And then there was this:





The Decware 88dB House Speakers using flagship Scanspeak Drivers for the purpose of having something suitable to demo the Zen TORII Mono's with.  


You can read about it here: https://www.decware.com/cgi-bin/yabb22/YaBB.pl?num=1637209185/0#0

(The entire read will blow your mind...)

Quote:


It did! I admire your patience with that one. Or, stubbornness