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New Torii MK V (Read 11965 times)
spyder1
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Re: New Torii MK V
Reply #50 - 07/30/21 at 18:56:20
 
Steve,

I hope you are keeping detailed notes about the "New Torii MK V" build, to help with the development of the "Production SOP."
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Re: New Torii MK V
Reply #51 - 07/31/21 at 05:26:39
 

These are the detailed notes. When I'm done I'll draw a schematic. Otherwise I'm just making this up as I go. Zenning my way through the layout as always.

This one turned out pretty good. The size of the capacitors can change without destroying the original layout. Yes, live and learn...

Have yet to hear this design at the lower voltages so not sure what will happen.  If I don't like it I will figure out a way to make it sound the way I want.  Somehow that apparently is my greatest talent.

Sorry, I couldn't do a video... I have to get into a zone to do this.  It will take two people to make a video, and it would have to be made of a production unit being made not the chess game of laying out a new amp, which takes hours.

Anyway, the initial build is done.

You'll have to click on the image to see it enlarged.



So if you study the high res image, the bottom left tube is the phase inverter. It is a 6N1P-EV long-tail splitter without negative feedback that is direct-coupled to a second 6N1P-EV acting as a cathode follower which lowers the impedance making it better suited at driving different output tubes. Also gives it a special sound. It is the most perfect waveform of all 116 phase inverter designs I've studied. You can control the harmonics by where you place the load lines while keeping the distortion very low. This is the same front end used in the Zen Mystery Amp.

So the audio circuit, as it were, starts a t the volume control and moves to the phase inverter tube and then to the cathode follower and then to the coupling caps that take the signal to the output tubes. While it looks messy at a glance, the plate and cathode resistors are matched with matched lead lengths on both tubes. Also the blue silver Teflon wire that connects the plates of the phase inverter to the grids of the follower is matched lengths. In fact everything is matched lengths. The parts leads, the connecting wire, and everything is laid out in a mirror image. This is how we do every Decware amplifier.  

This layout has about eleven nodes per channel. That's about half to a third as many as it could easily have had with a different layout.













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Archie
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Re: New Torii MK V
Reply #52 - 07/31/21 at 06:21:42
 
What's the single meter for?
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Re: New Torii MK V
Reply #53 - 07/31/21 at 06:29:53
 



Click image to see full size.

I've always been driven to make things symmetrical and match the wire and lead lengths of virtually every part in an amplifier.  No way to measure any benefit, I just always do it.  Despite looking like a bowl of spaghetti to the un-trained eye, this is one of the best layouts I've done for the bigger amps.

You can see the nice 500V F&T caps on each channel... we use those in every amplifier we make because there is no better.  Also they are axial leads not radial.  Axial lead caps take a lot more room, but typically sound and perform better.

The meter is a place-holder until our custom ones are finished. I can test the amp with this one. The custom ones are back-lit, so there will be a couple more wires : (  needed to light the meter when they get here.

Also I haven't installed the optional balanced XLR transformers in this sample yet.

Green wires are primarily ground, red wires are high voltage, yellow are low voltage. The Blue and Brown are signal path.  From the input sector switch I use shielded MOGAMI wire and tie both the left and right conductors together to double the thickness of the conductor and then run that to the volume control. It is fully shielded so it will not pick up any AC from the power supply rectifiers.

Also I am running a 1K grid resistor on the phase inverter and all output tubes. That will block wifi and bluetooth crap in the air from getting into the signal path and the tubes themselves.

The way you know I've been doing this for almost 30 years is that I won't be installing the fuses and firing it up until the mood strikes me tomorrow sometime. Since there is a chance I will have to fix or change something and ruin my virgin layout, I will wait until I am better prepared to deal with that... and if I am delighted because everything works and sounds perfect it will be an above average day.  

If it torments me and drags me through the mud all day or all weekend then it means the Audio Gods liked it so much they wanted to add their touch and make it better. Their methodology is suffering until it suddenly ignites into joy.

One of the best parts about this type of design and layout is that leads are short, everything is well supported, the entire picture as you see it can be installed into a paint shaker and run for 15 minutes and look exactly the same. That's the easy test. It just trains you not to make the leads to long. The real test is called UPS, USPS, FEDEX, DHL, etc. These ass hats will subject it to 90G impacts, usually several before it gets to your house.  The amplifier has to be able to take it without wires bending, breaking or parts leads cracking from vibration during the long ride in the truck to your house.

Literally, to simulate a 90G impact which can be measured with glass shipping vials taped to your product, we have to get on the roof of the shop and throw the amp 17 feet to the concrete below -- not drop it, throw it. This layout would be un-scathed. And this is why and how we can have a lifetime warranty.  Sadly it will take 2 days to build it. A circuit board could reduce that time to a couple hours. But the identical circuit done on circuit boards would be such a downgrade that you would have to compensate with super exotic caps. We use eight $40 capacitors in this amplifier. You would need $400 capacitors to approach the same sound, but even then it would only be a weak attempt to sound this good. You just can get flat copper or even gold traces on a circuit board to behave and sound like round wire in 3D space with lots of space around each part to let the field melt without saturating every other part. Not to mention vibration. The circuit board forces vibration on everything, and every wire, every node. All of it. This layout has no possibility of that sort of resonance.

Look, I'm feeling a little old after a year of working double shifts to test these amps before they get to your house, and a circuit board would allow me to make 5 times more money, in 1/4 the time, which would give me a life. Probably why you see almost everyone else using them.

I looked at a very famous amplifier the other night that claimed to be point-to-point wired, and indeed the output tube sockets were hand wired but the amp was full of circuit boards with radial caps, relays, solid state regulation and ribbon cables carrying everything from working voltages to signals. If I put even one plug-in ribbon cable even in this amp, it would be game over. You only hear the weakest link in the chain. No scope can detect the difference or any computer spice simulation. But I've tried it an listened to what happens. It's no different than using lamp cord for speaker wire. Sounds exactly like that in fact.







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Archie
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Re: New Torii MK V
Reply #54 - 07/31/21 at 06:58:30
 
That's such a thing of beauty.  When are you going to make a glass top amp?
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Dominick
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Re: New Torii MK V
Reply #55 - 07/31/21 at 08:24:17
 
Steve….can’t wait to hear your listening impressions once this amp is done.  Something tells me that with the 6N1P-EV input tubes, this amp may just sound  better than the MKIV out of the gate.  

Dom
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Eldergod
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Re: New Torii MK V
Reply #56 - 07/31/21 at 15:18:04
 
Been watching this thread on the new V… ugh. I need someone to stop me from joining the madness of placing an order for one.  I’m smitten.  
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Re: New Torii MK V
Reply #57 - 07/31/21 at 19:16:20
 

Quote:
If it torments me and drags me through the mud all day or all weekend then it means the Audio Gods liked it so much they wanted to add their touch and make it better. Their methodology is suffering until it suddenly ignites into joy.


Let the suffering begin.
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Geno
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Re: New Torii MK V
Reply #58 - 07/31/21 at 19:29:48
 
Hang in there Steve-O.  The family is behind you 100%!

Just concentrate on what you know the final result will be😊

We appreciate all that you do!!!
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Re: New Torii MK V
Reply #59 - 08/04/21 at 01:16:56
 

Thanks Geno, the encouragement is nice.  

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Re: New Torii MK V
Reply #60 - 08/04/21 at 02:23:13
 


click on image to see full size.  If you do, you will see the laminations in the right hand output transformer... each of those is actually three laminations.  So three dark, three light, and so on.

And I'm back.  The first thing I did wrong was hook two resistors to the wrong spot on each channel.  Of all the resistors in the amplifier, there are only two that if omitted or misconnected can open the portal.

The Portal is a passage to underworld, a world where physics are bent around the humor of the punisher...  For example, this particular mistake can take a DC power supply in an amplifier that is only capable of putting out 350 volts under load and 450 volts with no load climb all the way up to 600~700 volts or more. I never had the nuts to see how high it would go before the entire amplifier exploded in my face, so I usually killed it at 600. Remember an amplifier is an oscillator designed not to oscillate ; ).

Other things the portal can make happen is a perfectly working amplifier to really mess with you or one that will not pass a signal at all or any combination of the two depending on the humor of the punishers.  I said punishers this time (plural) because by now there are several standing around the crystal pool watching you.

In the case of this amp, it did neither. Instead it found something new and caused the cathode biased tubes to climb to hundreds of mills until smoke started coming off the cathode resistors and I had to pull the plug.

No worries, I found this one fairly quickly, having recognized that when something impossible is happening, the portal has been opened and the only way to open the portal is to leave out the grid bias resistors that follow the coupling-caps. Without that reference, turning on the amp immediately opens the portal. So I knew to look at those and sure enough I had them wired on the wrong side of the caps.

This is what happens when doing a new layout, because you are highly focused on the layout rather than the circuit and often make stupid mistakes.

My only thought after finding this, is that the amp probably will work now.  It didn't.  Still wouldn't pass a signal.  This is about the time when you know it's time to buckle in and ride it out, or walk away.  

The next day I gave it another shot and found that the reason it would only put out 500 milliwatts at full volume was because I forgot to wire the high voltage to cathode follower tube plates. HA, this is just like when I forget to plug an amplifier into the wall and wonder why the damn thing won't turn on... this is going to be easy.  

My only thought after finding this, is that the amp probably will work now. It didn't. Still wouldn't pass a signal. This is about the time you have to balance the negative forces at play with some profanity. Without profanity man would still be trying to get the wheel to work. So I did that.  

Sadly the amp didn't fix itself and jump to life so let it set for another day.

Today I fixed it.

Here's what happened... Even though this amp uses the exact front-end of a Zen Mystery Amp, I deliberately did not look at our working sample of the ZMA because I wanted to invent a completely different internal layout without being influenced by the original one on the ZMA. So instead I used my schematic of the ZMA to built the front-end and as a result did in fact come up with a better layout.

During that experience I became obsessed with the .1uf cap used in the tail of the long tail splitter (phase inverter).  I became compelled for some reason to revisit it. Why did I make it .1uf? Can it be smaller?  After diving down that worm hole I found out I made it .1uf because that is the only value that will work properly to balance out the low frequency response of the phase inverter.  I was also obsessed about where to locate the cap in the layout. It really became all about the cap there at the end...

This obsession with the cap turned out to be a misinterpretation of a warning from the Audio Gods who were trying to tell me there was a problem with that cap. The problem was that I drew the schematic wrong. Specifically when I drew the schematic, I drew on lead of this cap connected to the wrong place so when I followed the schematic I build the new amp wrong and wasted a lot of time comparing my work to the schematic in defiance unable to find anything wrong.

Once I looked at the ZMA, I could instantly see what happened.

So tonight it is on the bench doing some chin-ups as I write this. I will listen to it tomorrow.

I am pleased to report the biggest challenge being to get the 'TORII Harmonics' right, and at 1 watt they nearly perfectly match a Zen Triode amplifier, which is actually better than the TORII MK4, also, the distortion is lower.  Depending on tubes used, the range is between 0.2% and 1% total THD. Of course if you stripped out that first harmonic which we all so dearly love, the figure would drop closer to 0.02%.  

This will be a rich textured amp just as it has always been but with far more forgiving front-end with even lower distortion. The bandwidth also improves with the UFO transformers and overall resolution will be higher.

This weekend will be nice as I will start breaking it in tomorrow at work and by Friday night, we'll be ready to hear the results.

P.S.

I want you all to know that the hellish feeling of trying to fix something that you can't find anything wrong with happens many times to all of us as we put together your amplifies via this painful process. Circuit boards eliminate this. You can see why Decware amplifiers sound like Decware amplifiers. It takes real men to face this dragon on a regular basis and always come out victorious because there is no other choice. The longest the Audio Gods will punish you is 24 total hours.  That's basically four work days. But they can be defeated in numbers, so if two or three of us look it over, the hours melt off quickly. That's how we overcome the dragons during the daytime, but this particular project like all new amps, I just fight alone so as not to burden my crew.

Steve










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Re: New Torii MK V
Reply #61 - 08/04/21 at 02:35:36
 

God help the poor bastard that tries to copy this amp from the photos unless they want to meet the Audio Gods and the Punishers in person.
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piezoman
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Re: New Torii MK V
Reply #62 - 08/04/21 at 03:12:46
 
Steve, another fascinating insight into the pain and delight of a mad scientist Smiley Thanks for sharing.

I hope this doesn't sound nitpicky on the visuals, will you by any chance be revising what's going on with the print around the volume knobs? Might there be a consideration to make it considerably less dominant, or removed altogether like your other amps?

Wow, its sounding like this amp is going to be incredible! I am really looking forward to having one.

Brad
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Re: New Torii MK V
Reply #63 - 08/04/21 at 03:37:29
 

Quote:
Steve,

Wow, seeing how intricate all of this is (at least to a layman) leads me to wonder, with an amp like the Torii V.......once it's in full production, roughly how long does it take to build up to the QC portion?  


Yes, that's the whole thing!  It takes 12 to 20 hours to do a TORII size amplifier and then another hour in QC to test and analyze it, as well as hand select perfect tubes for it so that when we measure it, it measures perfect. If it has any anniversary mods, those are added after the fact to a fully tested stock amplifier, so another couple hours there, and then another hour of QC and on occasion we will hook it up in the listening room and spend an hour or an evening with it.

In contrast, there are videos on Youtube of a Fender tube guitar amplifier being mass produced one every 11 minutes. And I know first hand from a guitar shop tech that every one had to be hand soldered after it was unpacked and before it went onto the sales floor.  Wave soldering tube amps only works on video and on paper... but considering you can sell an amp for less and then make the entire cost of the amp back a second time in repairs and your dealers get a big cut of that action as well...

So you see, Decware isn't magic pixy dust that no-one else has... it's pure hard work that isn't very profitable, unlike making a 3 foot power cord and charging 21 grand for it.

We love what we do because we get to share our discoveries with you which magnifies the experience. And it's paying the bills -- the company is family owned and has zero debt.

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Re: New Torii MK V
Reply #64 - 08/04/21 at 04:00:05
 

Regarding the print around the knobs, it is designed for chicken head knobs to be highly functional since there are dual controls. The reason I went with white is so that in the dark from only the glow of the tubes and meters you would be able to see the numbers. During the day it is a lot of contrast and gray would have looked more appropriate. That said, a 38~42mm knob with a 1/4 inch shaft will fit perfectly and cover it. The knobs we use on the ZTPRE are a fine example of what I'm referring to.









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piezoman
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Re: New Torii MK V
Reply #65 - 08/04/21 at 04:10:02
 
Very well, thanks for the reasoning, and the tip, Steve!

I will look into a pair of larger snappy metal volume knobs.
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Re: New Torii MK V
Reply #66 - 08/04/21 at 05:03:23
 
I find the volume notation to be a nice improvement.
 
"This is about the time you have to balance the negative forces at play with some profanity.  Without profanity man would still be trying to get the wheel to work.  So I did that."  

This is my favorite part of a most entertaining write-up.
Thanks, Steve.

Brian
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Re: New Torii MK V
Reply #67 - 08/04/21 at 06:10:28
 
I have to agree with the knob printing aesthetic objections.  Too busy.  The problem with making a beautiful product is that tiny flaws stand out.  I don't have any 20 step attenuators but with a single index line on the knob, I've never had a problem matching knob positions on my CSP3.

It's funny, I always wondered why nothing was labeled on Decware amps and now that I see labels I like it much better without.
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Re: New Torii MK V
Reply #68 - 08/04/21 at 17:46:34
 



Here is a pic of a 38mm knob because that's what I have in stock.  A 42mm knob would completely hide the indexing for those who don't like it.



Just put it in the listening room. . Now after the 20 minute OA3 warm-up there is no question that this sounds better than the Torii Jr., and it may even be better sounding than the ZMA (but 1/2 the power). If that turns out to be true my goal has been reached. To offer 3 different amplifiers.  Nevertheless I am surprised that it sounds better than a TORII JRv2... We can't say it's the output transformers, because they are the same.  The only differences are the power supplies and the phase-inverter. I'm not sure yet which is responsible for what I'm hearing, but it is very compelling. Not even the original Blue TORII's were this good.

I'm going to have genuine fun this year at DECFEST watching peoples faces when they hear the combination of this amplifier, the new Tube Tots (speakers) and the HOLO MAY DAC backing it all up. It's just hard to believe how good it is.

Ear Candy...



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Re: New Torii MK V
Reply #69 - 08/04/21 at 18:35:09
 
The MK V looks great! I do prefer the larger knobs.

Looking forward to all the pleasures of the ear at DECFEST this year!

Is the custom meter you're waiting for different internally or just aesthetically? Will that change the sound?

In what ways does the MK V sound different than the MK IV?

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Re: New Torii MK V
Reply #70 - 08/04/21 at 18:39:31
 
Absolutely Stunning…
Amazing how you can continue to Best the Best!
Highest Regards…
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piezoman
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Re: New Torii MK V
Reply #71 - 08/04/21 at 19:04:38
 
The audio quality comments from Steve is exhalting!

And yes, the direction those volume knobs take the visuals is much better. Your creation is beautiful!

I'm stoked! After originally putting in my order with the 25th mods, I wonder how THAT is going to sound.
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Re: New Torii MK V
Reply #72 - 08/04/21 at 19:09:55
 

We can offer this amp with or without silk screen the way it currently sits...  The chassis is a mirror image, so either the screened side or the non-screen side can be used.  

Steve

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Re: New Torii MK V
Reply #73 - 08/04/21 at 20:21:04
 
“ Wave soldering tube amps only works on video and on paper”
Repairing cracked and corroding solder pads is the story of my work career and the source of my love for point to point wiring.
This amp is a beautiful product.
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Re: New Torii MK V
Reply #74 - 08/05/21 at 00:04:20
 
This new design is phenomenal !!   The layout is so clean.  I love that the bigger chassis spreads the tubes out more and makes it easier to handle.  The larger knobs fit nicely in the new layout as well.  

I’m sure other Torii owner’s like myself are chomping at the bit waiting to hear how this compares to the MKIV.  Interesting that you feel this may even be better sounding than the ZMA at half the power.  Please elaborate.

Dom



 
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Re: New Torii MK V
Reply #75 - 08/05/21 at 00:48:17
 
Hi Steve, Is the sound improvement you noted a comparison between the MK V prototype over a stock Torii JrV2?.... or does that performance difference still hold when compared to a Torii JrV2 with the copper bypass mods?  I know it's early and and probably premature to make definitive conclusions but wanted to get a rough idea of how close a Torii JrV2 with the copper bypass mods is to the new MK V. I've been mostly lurking around here for a few months and have been on the fence about which amp to buy. I was originally set on getting a Rachael but your recent praise for the Torii JrV2 made me re-consider (and revise my budget!). This new discovery may make my amp buying decision even harder! If it turns out the performance difference is due to something specific to the power supply and phase inverter, could that change be ported over to future iterations of the Torii Jr, ZMA, SET amps etc... ? Could there be "Christmas Comes Early" 2021 or 2022??
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Re: New Torii MK V
Reply #76 - 08/05/21 at 02:18:20
 

Hi Derekinla,

Welcome the forum and welcome to the family.  At this stage it is too early to say.  I'm still trying to wrap my head around the differences.  When I listen to it, I find I have to remind myself that it doesn't have any anniversary mods yet.

As far as my comparison to the ZMA, I think I am zeroing in on the output transformers.  I think that is what I am hearing.  The combination of the ZMA phase splitter on a cathode biased amp using the UFO output transformers.  It's a unique combination that looks like it's going to have it's own sound.


TORII JRv2 - original direct-coupled phase splitter, single power supply, 20 Watt UFO transformers, cathode bias.

TORII MK4 - original direct-coupled phase splitter, dual power supply, 25 Watt Non-UFO transformers, cathode bias.

TORII MK5 - long tail direct-coupled phase splitter, dual power supplies, 20 Watt UFO transformers, cathode bias, meter.

ZMA - long tail direct-coupled phase splitter, dual power supplies, 40 Watt Non-UFO transformers, fixed bias, meters.



As far as the nitty gritty sound quality differences between them with or without anniversary mods, let me say this: At AXPONA or a similar audio show environment all four amplifiers would sound the same so long as 20 watts was enough power.  The subtle differences would become apparent in your quiet home, but even then would be clearly in the category of subtle, so it's not like you can pick the wrong amplifier based on sound quality or sound signature. You should all know me by now, I make everything sound a certain way or I don't make it. It's the Decware sound, it's baked right in. It's a tight family where as you get to know each amp, little personality changes begin to appear and you may develop a clear favorite or you may not.

Steve



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Re: New Torii MK V
Reply #77 - 08/05/21 at 03:51:27
 
Very interesting. And the MK 5 actually decreased 5 watts too.
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Re: New Torii MK V
Reply #78 - 08/05/21 at 04:13:39
 

OK, Hold the phone... something is wrong.  After 12 hours and a bit of time this evening to listen, there is no way this sound can be from any of the things I've mentioned.  What I am hearing is something new, and not a combination of things from the other amps.  I'm sorry this sounds too good, something is wrong.  Something has happened.

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Re: New Torii MK V
Reply #79 - 08/05/21 at 06:35:39
 

This evening when I was playing with the bias meter switches to see if there was an audible effect on the sound, I found out that there was.

When all four switches are on, magic happens.

When all four switches are off, it's just like the TORII JR, or TORII MK4, the extra resolution it has not doing it any real favors except on some recordings. Flip the switches and the imaging just gels, and the liquidity explodes. Sounds like we're listening to a giant triode now...

I had a glancing thought about this when I was figuring out how to wire the meter to work with all four tubes, one at a time, a pair at a time, or all four (or three if your odd). Wondering how mixing the cathode resistors of each tube into a single resistor vs. having each directly connected to ground was going to sound but didn't worry about it much since the switches can be operated either way.

Now after hearing what happened, I can see what is happening.  Each tube has it's own cathode resistor holding it above ground at a certain height...  in the other TORII's each pair of output tubes share a single cathode resistor which allows for some self-balancing of current between the tubes. That's a good thing socially, however the channels are separate. Dual mono.  Even in a TORII JR where there is a single power supply, there is a dual mono capacitor filter network, one for each channel, and the channels are separated.

So tonight we have each tube separated with it's own cathode resistor for a total independence when the meter is off. These cathode resistors are bypassed with a capacitor which acts like a resistor at lower frequencies creating what would be like a common resistor for all four tubes. Also you don't really want the capacitor across the meter because it will make it prematurely bounce around at full power.

When you switch all four switches to meter, the cathode resisters merge into one just before they hit the ground giving the two channels a little negotiation time to balance things out. It shows up as a reduction of edge in the music and a better focus because subtle phase angle differences between the two channels can now resolve themselves in the mid and high frequencies.

Realize what we have done, is take two completely separate mono blocks with floating output stages, their own power switches, even their own fuses, and let them both share a single 1.5 ohm resistor in the most critical part of the signal path, the cathode.

So I guess the recommended method of operation after you amuse yourself by checking the bias of each tube one at a time, and in pairs, you should leave all four switches on so the meter is active. I can't image anyone not doing this anyway because no one wants to see a meter not doing anything.

Here is a diagram of the cathode circuit that seems to be behind all the magic.








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Re: New Torii MK V
Reply #80 - 08/05/21 at 07:52:47
 
Thank you Steve for the detailed feedback to my question and the technical explanation of your incredible discovery! Can the Cathode resistors be merged in the Torii Jr to take advantage of this sonic breakthrough from the audio gods? Could this be a sort of CCE21 update to bring the Torii Jr 2.0 to V2.1? Smiley
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Re: New Torii MK V
Reply #81 - 08/05/21 at 11:44:58
 
Did the MK 5 actually lose 5 watts? I thought the Torii was determined to be perfect at 25 watts.
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Re: New Torii MK V
Reply #82 - 08/05/21 at 15:05:37
 
Wow. Looks as if this will be a great amp. I'm broke as far as audio equipment goes, so I'm glad I am so very happy with my Monoblocks and remember that whenever I've compared the low-powered amps to the higher-powered Decware amps I've preferred the SET sound. (And I am so enjoyng just listening to music and not being audio analytical!) But there are going to be many happy users of this amp next year!
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Re: New Torii MK V
Reply #83 - 08/05/21 at 16:48:48
 

The total wattage is determined by the trade offs between bias, high voltage and class A operation. Presently I have the tubes biased at 50 mil ea., which is higher than the JR or MK4. This drops the peak power, but increases the amount of class A power. No one can hear a difference between 20 and 25 watts so why not focus on making it sound better down where the power is used.

Steve

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Re: New Torii MK V
Reply #84 - 08/05/21 at 16:56:37
 

Of course I will gradually play with this on the TORII JR and MK4 to see if it has the same effect.  A meter shouldn't be required in theory, only a resistor but we shall see.

Steve

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Re: New Torii MK V
Reply #85 - 08/05/21 at 17:56:16
 
Quote:
The total wattage is determined by the trade offs between bias, high voltage and class A operation. Presently I have the tubes biased at 50 mil ea., which is higher than the JR or MK4. This drops the peak power, but increases the amount of class A power.


Interesting.  So, when I bias my ZMA on the high side, am I also gaining Class A operation at the expense of max power?
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Re: New Torii MK V
Reply #86 - 08/05/21 at 18:43:26
 

Yup.
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Re: New Torii MK V
Reply #87 - 08/05/21 at 19:35:28
 
Now I'll have to play with this to hear how loud it can go!
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Re: New Torii MK V
Reply #88 - 08/05/21 at 19:46:44
 
Archie, I'm guessing you are saying that in jest.  Increase from 40 watts to 50 watts is ~1db increase in SPL  ;D

Also in theory 25 Watts to 20 Watts in about ~1db SPL decrease.
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Re: New Torii MK V
Reply #89 - 08/05/21 at 22:56:19
 
This thread is tormenting me.  Why?  ZMA or Torii MK V?  I have new Klipschorns (and a tolerant wife).  My UFO2 and Cambridge Audio DAC are rocking my world and it's beautiful. 15wx18lx9h room.  Is there still more to be extracted from the K-horns?

(the glow of tubes and backlit meters makes me happy)
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Re: New Torii MK V
Reply #90 - 08/06/21 at 01:01:39
 
Kirk,

Is there still more to be extracted from the K-horns... I say yes. Is a new amp the answer? guessing no, If you like the SET UFO2 sound stick with it. I've spent a bunch of time with the SET, PP and ultra linear amps from DECWARE. I prefer the PP / Ultra linear sound. All three have fantastic holography, speed, etc. Lon has owned both Torii and UFO amps and prefers the SET sound.

Without knowing your systems and room setup, acoustic treatment is the best thing you can do.

Cables are also important.

Glowing tubes makes me happy too Smiley


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Re: New Torii MK V
Reply #91 - 08/06/21 at 03:23:03
 
Kirk,

In a listening room your size, with the very efficient K-horns, I am surprised that you are not 100% satisfied.

Are you finding that you don’t have enough volume?
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Re: New Torii MK V
Reply #92 - 08/06/21 at 05:53:39
 



click on image to see full size

Hehe... so tonight I'm seeing how hot I can get it. Literally. To that effect I switched to the Corner Horns and put a ZROCK2 in front of it... and turned it ALL THE WAY UP. Have never done that before. Was fully expecting it to completely crap on itself, but the thought "what if someone at the fest turned this thing all the way up" and then it was time to just see what WOULD happen.

So I turned the ZROCK2 all the way up, shoved about 6 volts up it's ass with a ZBIT and turned the amplifier all the way up.  

I had to run out of the room and go and get a witness. No shit. I really did. God, I can't wait until I get time to make some videos... this would have been a good one.  

The bass is so F'IN tight with a ZROCK2 trying to drive it into the wall and it just won't crash. I'm so glad I stuck with 0.022uf Miflex caps instead of going larger.  

Now I'm almost afraid to listen to this amp on my ZF15L Zen Master Series 100dB open baffles...  I might not ever be able to come back down, and be endlessly stuck outside my body. Could be dangerous. Leave it for later.

The bass that came out of these speakers (my corner horns) https://youtu.be/WvP2f-Ls4ws -- the video is of the corner horns. What I heard tonight made that sound silly. I've never heard 20 watts do that in my lifetime, it was just insane. There would be no way to record that on the phone I use for most of the videos. It was 10dB louder than the phone can handle. We would have to use the hi-res recorder, and I think we will.  

I'll promise you this... if you were here, and heard and felt what we just experienced there is no way you would believe it came from two 6 inch drivers on 20 watts without any subwoofers. NO ONE would believe it.

Wow, that was a special treat... didn't see that one coming! I guess that means the amp is done. We'll start building them next week.

This thing rocks every category. Especially the imaging and liquidity. Damn it. Now I'm going to have to see if I can make the JR do it.

So tonight after listening exclusively to the Tube Tots, which are tiny speakers with dual 4 inch drivers, I went to the corner horns 36 times their size and contrast was so great I just about shit myself. Also hearing the TORII MK5 make the corner horns sound great like the TORII JR and ZMA was something I can't really put words to. Hehe, these two items just didn't get along. The Torii MK1, 2, 3, 4 all hated these speakers. For almost 20 years it has annoyed me because it sounded so good in every way except a hint of bass bloat with these horns. My first "I'll Fix YOU" was the ZMA. And boy did that fix it. My second "I'll Fix YOU" was the TORII JR. And that fixed it equally well at half the cost.  This is my Third and final... problem solved and check mate.

A little behind the scenes soap opera for you.

If I was in my 30's right now this would make me run out in the garage and build a 9 foot high pair of corner horns and put an F15 driver in each one. I've never wanted to hear that more than I do right now, and with a ZROCK2 all the way up playing electronic bass music. If you can imagine a 9 foot heigh pair of these horns, with a footprint of about 4.5 feet x 4.5 feet glued into the corners of your large room....  I know I would have done this then, because on a similarly inspired urge I built a concrete bass horn around my furnace in a 150 year old basement. With a single 12 inch driver and 20 watts I put 22 cracks in the basement concrete glaze coat over the bricks.  

A retarded girl walking in the park saw me stop at the lights with a load of particle board in my old pickup truck. I accidentally put it in granny gear which you never do with any real horsepower and it had a really hot 302 Cleveland small block in it.  Light turned green I let out the clutch to go and the truck shot forward and the 10 sheets of particle board was still setting motionless in the air behind the truck were it was parked for the light. When like a cartoon it realized there is gravity it crashed to ground and shattered like glass all over the intersection. To make matters worse I had an entire pallet of concrete bags on top of it that were also now neatly stacked on the pallet in the middle of the intersection on top of the splattered particle board. No shit. It was surreal.

She helped me put everything back in my truck while 4 men stood and watched us from the gas station across the street.

I'll never forget her.

Anyway, many from the early DECFEST days will remember that horn. You would walk inside it. And since we're making a reference to age here, you should know that before I went to bed that night even after the disaster on the way home, the horn was completed and concrete was curing. If that happened now, it's doubtful that anything would have happened until the next day at best... why is that?

You know an amp is good when it makes you want get crazy again : )

Steve







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Re: New Torii MK V
Reply #93 - 08/06/21 at 06:30:16
 

I don't know what I'm listening to right now, but it feels like a freight train is driving through my chest and the whole building is on the verge of coming loose. Pretty damn good for a concrete slab which is what this room is built on. Usually this kind of earthquake low bass sensation comes from a suspended wood floor of no less than 16 feet x 16 feet with no supports in the center of the floor.

Well, what do you know I guess it's fun with bass night here at Decware using a pair of 6 inch full-range drivers. I wish Leo from Lii Audio were here to hear this. This is usually an experience that requires the Imperial Bass Horns with 15 inch drivers (28 cubic feet per cabinet) But it is easily happening tonight, and I mean EASILY happening without compression, stress, bloat, overshoot, just rendering the recording with 16dB more bass weight than normal.

Woohoo.

This amp loves the punishment.  And with simple inexpensive Electroharmonix EL34's it sounds spectacular.  I haven't tried any really 'good' tubes in it yet, because this is far more telling.  And just proof that you don't need exotic tubes to get it to levitate.

Steve



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Re: New Torii MK V
Reply #94 - 08/06/21 at 10:38:50
 
Hey Steve, great to hear the bass dept is a wrap! My Omega single drivers are 6.5",  so about the same size. Sounds like I can sell the Deephemp 8 sub. Nice.

My bass and volume needs will finally be addressed. RESERVE POWER. With the Taboo MK 4 sounding great and fully fleshed on many recordings [acoustic guitar, vocals, jazz, classical chamber] and somewhat thin on too many others, even with the zrock2-25th  [anything rock oriented, classical symphony], it is plain too weak at 3.2 watts. No way around that without RESERVE POWER. So selling it and replacing with this creation should solve those woes. And yes, my speakers are plenty efficient at 95db.

Steve, can't wait to hear what you think of the overall performance top to bottom with your 25th A mod Smiley  

Brad
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Re: New Torii MK V
Reply #95 - 08/06/21 at 11:22:39
 
Hey Geno.  I was stunned by what the UFO2 did to my original Forte IIIs.  I was further blown away by what the Khorns brought. But I can't help myself.  Could the sound get even better with a ZMA or Torii?
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Re: New Torii MK V
Reply #96 - 08/06/21 at 12:52:54
 
Kirk,

That is a valid question - and one I hope Steve will comment on.

Steve, for me, the real question would be, how would this amp compare to others in the stable, in the 70db - 85db range?

I know it’s got to be pretty cool to hear this setup at max levels, but I almost never listen over 85db anymore. I’m much more interested in mid level volume quality.

So, my question is, for us Geritol consuming folks, does this new setup have much better depth, density, etc., at mid volumes, than the lower watt amps in the stable?
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Re: New Torii MK V
Reply #97 - 08/07/21 at 05:49:29
 

Quote:
Hey Steve, great to hear the bass dept is a wrap! My Omega single drivers are 6.5",  so about the same size. Sounds like I can sell the Deephemp 8 sub. Nice.


Actually, the bass is tighter than the TORII MK4 and even a touch tighter than the TORII JR, which means that on a small driver there is likely to be less bass until you turn it up enough to move the cone around. This suggests that you will need the sub even more or simply play your music a lot louder.

The difference between the corner horn enclosure and the ported box for the 6.5" Omega is like the difference between a push mower and a riding tractor. That has to be considered. No-one has speakers like the corner horns so similar bass can't be expected.

Point is, the amplifier has no more or less bass than a Zen Triode 2.3 watt amp or any other amp that we make. The only thing the TORII can do in the case of smaller drivers is move them more -- creating a higher SPL which will in turn create more bass by moving more air.

It would better if you don't have a corner horn to own a 15 inch driver like the 100dB F15 by Lii Audio, where the cone doesn't even move enough to notice -- but the surface area adds up to the same amount of air being moved as a smaller driver when its being throttled. The difference is efficiency and linearity.

Also remember where bass is concerned in your listening room, often it's not so much the standing waves in the room as it is the peaks in the mid and high frequency response that is at fault. There are two ways to have more bass, turn the bass up or turn the treble down. If your room is canceling the bass, than turning the bass up will only make the problem worse. Every room can be warmed up with absorbing surfaces to turn the highs down, so that is usually the best place to start when you want more bass.

These very corner horns that rang my bell last night were in a room once with 19dB of midrange and treble peaks and we could hear ZERO bass. Adding a sub in that situation would have only created mud, confusion and fatigue.

There are a lot of bandaids for this hobby that bring good money. Try not to use or need any of them. Take your rooms more seriously whenever possible.  If a good room is out of the question, consider a pair of decent headphones on one our our headphone amps. It won't sound like the headphones you've decided is not your thing. It will be your thing when it sounds like speakers in a perfect room, or puts you up on stage with the band...

After enough of that, when you listen to speakers in your room, you will start to demand more of your room. Notice I said of your room. Virtually most audiophiles will demand more of their speakers with no consideration of the room. Waste of time.  

Don't get too exited... even with a good room, and great gear it is easy to have bad sound. It happened to me just this past week in my shop due to 4 bad speaker connections and the wrong wire.

Getting everything right only happens when you give equal attention to each part no matter how small or large your perception of it is. A single connection is as important as your end game DAC, if not more. Your room is more important than any single component in it.

As you can see I'm not so much answering your post, but using it as I often do as an opportunity to teach the people who read but don't post.  Everything we write here is indexed on Google thanks to a clever piece of code we came up several years ago, so you would be stunned how many people from the internet read this stuff.

Steve




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Re: New Torii MK V
Reply #98 - 08/07/21 at 05:59:15
 

Quote:
Steve, for me, the real question would be, how would this amp compare to others in the stable, in the 70db - 85db range?


100%.

The only amplifiers we make that don't are the 12K 60W mono blocks. Those need to be turned up a bit to open up.

Steve



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Re: New Torii MK V
Reply #99 - 08/07/21 at 15:30:35
 
Quote:
Posted by: Kirk      Posted on: 08/05/21 at 22:56:19

This thread is tormenting me.  Why?  ZMA or Torii MK V?  I have new Klipschorns (and a tolerant wife).  My UFO2 and Cambridge Audio DAC are rocking my world and it's beautiful. 15wx18lx9h room.  Is there still more to be extracted from the K-horns?...]


How about another UFO2? If you love the sound of one (IMO) two is even better. I'm using a pair of UFOs, configured as balanced monoblocks, and they sound fantastic. Just my 2 cents...


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