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Year End CDApS Meeting (Read 64545 times)
Palomino
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Year End CDApS Meeting
12/29/16 at 11:51:32
 
This Friday between 12:00 and 1:00 El Presidente will call to order the final CDApS meeting of 2016.  Special guest Donnie will be in attendance.

We will be listening to three open baffle speakers - my biamped, Tang Band 1808/Augie combo, Donnie's crossed over Tang Band/double Emminence Alpha combo and El Presidente's recently acquired/built Betsy Baffles.

We'll also have my DIY monoliths to compare the OB systems to box speakers with a horn kicker.

We'll have at least three amps: Jupe'd, non UFO Rachael, copper jup'ed Torii III and El Presidente's ZMA,

I will be looking for feedback on my treated room and how other members feel about upsampling to DSD in Audirvana.  I feel that combo improves the sound of my OBs and would like a second opinion there as well.

All hail Donnie who is making the trek from the frozen farmland to the south and slepping his OBs to face the music (so to speak) of the CDApS crew.




Should be a good time.
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Donnie
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Re: Year End CDApS Meeting
Reply #1 - 12/29/16 at 15:04:34
 
This could turn into an epic road trip.
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Palomino
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Re: Year End CDApS Meeting
Reply #2 - 12/29/16 at 16:44:51
 
I also just got my Christmas Present - a new (used) Mac mini with an i7 quad core processor so dsd upsampling should not be a problem. Sounds pretty good even without the linear power supply installed.  Not sure I will try that install before tomorrow.
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Lonely Raven
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Re: Year End CDApS Meeting
Reply #3 - 12/30/16 at 04:03:05
 

So, I'm bringing the ZMA?

Anything else?

I could bring the monster 18" I just built...but I might need a hand bringing it up and down from your audio den. LOL

See you guys around noon then!
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Palomino
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Re: Year End CDApS Meeting
Reply #4 - 12/30/16 at 12:39:01
 
Also bring the Betsys and some music.

Not sure how we will prop the Betsys up. I'd like to hear them.
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Donnie
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Re: Year End CDApS Meeting
Reply #5 - 12/30/16 at 14:21:41
 
I'm leaving this frozen cornfield around 9:30 with a Jeep full of speakers and maybe a DAC or two.
If my navaguessing is correct, I should arrive a touch after the noon whistle blows.
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Palomino
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Re: Year End CDApS Meeting
Reply #6 - 12/31/16 at 00:57:45
 
I'll write more later but we had a good session today.

We ended up listening to Rachael and the zma plus my Monoliths, my OBs, Donnies OBs, and the Betsys plus a few input tubes and Eric's vintage 807 power tubes.

In summary we gravitated quickly to the OBs and Donnie's looked and
Sounded great.   Not sure why but they had better treble extension than my OBs even with the same primary drivers.  My bottom end was tighter with the Augies.  Overall though, came away impressed with the bass from Donnies double woofer design given he is not bi-amping.

On input tubes, Steve's cheap Chinese tubes were richer than the more expensive 6n23ps.  For me, the funky 807's power tubes stole the show.  A good match for single drivers.

Betsys won the size of soundstage award but I think we all came away with the opinion that they needed a super tweeter or more up top.  Still silly good for the money.

Thanks to Donnie for making the long drive.  
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Re: Year End CDApS Meeting
Reply #7 - 12/31/16 at 01:53:57
 
I am still at a loss for words for what I heard today. My room here at home sounds terrible, not even worth talking about.
Palomino's room is phenomenal, it drags music out of thin air.
Everything we played today sounded great, some even more than others.
This was a great day!
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Re: Year End CDApS Meeting
Reply #8 - 12/31/16 at 17:05:39
 
It was a combination of factors but this was the first time that I heard Rachael and the ZMA back to back where I didn't feel the ZMA was leagues ahead of the Rachael.  There were still more details and grunt in the ZMA but I didn't leave with as much amp envy.  Don't know what that is worth other than that's it's a testimonial to achieving pretty good sound with any decware amp.

Another comment about the day is how good this 2012 Mac mini sounds compared to my 2010.  The 2012 has a ssd drive and 8gb of ram but so does the 2010.  Even without a LPS like I have on the 2010, it's significantly better sounding.  The quad core i7 also chews through DSD conversions without breaking a sweat.  I am not feeling the need to do any mods right now.

I hope Eric and Donnie will post some pictures.

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Re: Year End CDApS Meeting
Reply #9 - 12/31/16 at 20:38:02
 
Here are the few photo's I took:
Tom's OB's:



These speakers sound just wonderful, the bass control is superb.
We ended up toeing them in maybe another 10 degrees from their normal position and gained some treble extension.

Eric's Betsys



What great sound from so little money. There is a good possibility that I will be making something with these drivers.

And my extremely heavy OB's( nicknamed Angies) :



I have a lot of catching up to do to run with these Big Dogs. A lot of work in room treatment and I need to study crossover design. The bottom end from the Alpha's sound just a touch flabby and uncontrolled. But the upper extension is just outstanding, we don't know if it is my baffle design or maybe I just got a good pair of Tang Bands.
As I told everyone yesterday, I have no background in the math or design of speakers, I just listened to what others said to do (thanks Lin). My background is in making things, so I approached it with that kind of mindset. I really tried to make them pretty though.
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Lonely Raven
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Re: Year End CDApS Meeting
Reply #10 - 12/31/16 at 20:47:24
 

I have some personal (Redhead) things to deal with, and I have some actual *work* work to get done and submitted to my boss before the end of the day, but I'll chime in briefly and upload photos tomorrow.


It was great seeing Donnie - his big OB speakers really look amazing! And sound just as good as they look! Good job my friend! Hearing them right after Palomino's OBs though, it was clear his bass, while full, was a bit less controlled. I'm betting if you get an outboard amp like what Pal has, you could dial that in and not need to mess with the crossovers.

Palomino's room sounded great - I've heard it sound better, but only by a hair, and back when that was the focus (room and imaging). Right now the room just sounds good with everything! Every speaker we put in there sounded great, and we all heard stuff in familiar recordings we'd never caught before. Hell, after Donnie left, we played around with some tubes and played some tracks from a couple of my recent favorite albums (ALT-J An Awesome Wave) and introduced Pal to Bon Ivers first couple of albums, which I've been listening to a lot lately, but the room treatment brought out so much detail, instrument separation, and layering that I'd never heard before in these well worn albums.  Donnie seemed pretty blown away by what room treatment can do, and I think he's been converted.  ;)

As for the Rachel....I've always liked the Rachel, and always felt she sounded silky smooth and (as Steve would say) doesn't suck. But with all the tweaks Palomino has put into his system, and the tube choices, and cabling, room treatments and everything, I swear the Rachel was in the realm of the ZMA. While surprising, it kind of wasn't a surprise at the same time. I'm betting that the Rachel with UFO transformers would squeek out the detail that the Rachel is lacking in comparison to the ZMA, and make that amp even more amazing (see how I'm trying to spend your money?).  We've had days where the ZMA just didn't sound head and shoulders above everything else, but it has never sucked...this latest listening session, everything sounded awesome...which I guess is a good thing, because having such a great setup with a well treated room...if something sucked, you'd know it!


My Betsy speakers really surprised me that the big room filling sound carried over to Pal's room. We could pretty much drop them anywhere and they sounded silky smooth, and HUGE...but after hearing Donnie's and Palomino's speakers, it was clear how much top end the Betsy baffles were missing compared to the much more expensive full range drivers they were using. I hate adding anything to a full range speaker, because the whole point is pulling out detail and not having time/phase smearing with a crossover - but I'm hoping I can get away with a supertweeter with nothing but a cap on it and bring these budget OBs up to a much higher level...they already punch way above their price range.


We really need to get some more local guys over for CDApS meets. This was great sharing and showing off, and having extra ears to help dial in and verify what we're hearing and doing. We just can't expand our knowledge and improve our systems in a vacuum.

Oh yeah, and I think those 807 tubes were a hit! I left a quad of ceramic base military 807, and a quad of 40's vintage NOS 807 with adapters at Pal's house so he can play with them in the Rachel. They really brought out the smoothness in the Rachel, but kept all the detail and grunt that made the Rachel sound like a mini-ZMA!

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Re: Year End CDApS Meeting
Reply #11 - 12/31/16 at 21:03:09
 
Donnie,

For inexpensive bass experimentation, I highly recommend this Crown amp. this is the newer version of what Tom has...I have its much higher current big brother, but I got it more for home theater use with big 18", big excursion drivers.

https://www.amazon.com/Crown-XLS1002-Two-channel-Power-Amplifier/dp/B011TI97VE/r...

It has a built in crossover so you can dial in your subs how you want them. It literally took me about 2 minutes to figure out and setup. I blended in my giant 21" driver with the little Betsy's, just for grins, and it worked out well.

The other option is an Behringer iNuke DSP amps. The DSP in these is way more versatile, so you could even bi- or tri- amp your setups with the DSP processing (they even have some parametric EQ!)....but of course, they wouldn't even be in the same galaxy of sound quality as our Decware amps, so I would only use them for subwoofers.

https://www.amazon.com/Behringer-NU1000DSP-iNuke-Power-Amplifier/dp/B005EHIN3A/r...


I believe either one of these amps would be an inexpensive way to add subs to any system....maybe even your garage system.  :)
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Re: Year End CDApS Meeting
Reply #12 - 12/31/16 at 22:25:41
 
I hadn't ever thought about a sub for my garage stereo. That would be pure evil. Maybe something that would thump at about 120 db! I would be the scourge of the area!
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Re: Year End CDApS Meeting
Reply #13 - 01/01/17 at 13:17:21
 
As Eric suggested, the extension could be due to something as simple as the thickness of your baffles or their closer placement on the baffle and a more direct line to the listening position.

Have you ever flipped them to see what the soundstage would be like with the tang bands on the outside?  And does that take away from the extension.  

One thing we should have done while you were here was wire your Alphas directly to the crown.  It was a pretty big difference when I switched to the crown.   I do think Darrel did some nice things to the Augies that help like the cast frame and the magnet size.
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Re: Year End CDApS Meeting
Reply #14 - 01/02/17 at 02:20:16
 
Did you guys do any comparisons between PCM and DSD upsampling in Audirvana?  I am in the same boat as Palomino having recently upgraded to. 2012 Mini.  In my case, DSD upsampling has proven to be a big benefit.
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Re: Year End CDApS Meeting
Reply #15 - 01/02/17 at 05:35:53
 
We didn't toggle back and forth during the session but I have in the past and I much prefer the dsd.  Also, i now understand the pickup when you got the 2012.  Much better SQ.  Not sure it needs the lpsu.  I may put it in tomorrow to see.
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Re: Year End CDApS Meeting
Reply #16 - 01/02/17 at 19:00:01
 

I'm just throwing some pics up - not much time to comment much.


Slightly off-kilter pano of the room. You can see all the diffusers.





Just getting settled in.





In another thread we were talking about tube storage, and I said Palo had this plastic thingy he holds tubes in so they don't roll around, but I didn't know what it was....turns out, it's a staircase from a Barbie house! LOL





He also stuck his "spares" in left over foam cutoffs from his diffuser builds...I like seeing them all out.





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Re: Year End CDApS Meeting
Reply #17 - 01/02/17 at 19:02:49
 

Donnie's great looking Open Baffles with the same full range drivers that Palomino uses. He can chime in more about them...here they are staged, when deployed the full range drivers are on the inside of the speakers. The subwoofers are doubled up with a second baffle. I really liked the way these looked!











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Re: Year End CDApS Meeting
Reply #18 - 01/02/17 at 19:12:13
 

My slapped together Betsy speakers in 24" x 24" x 3/4" MDF panels, roughly cut and nicely routed so the drivers are almost flush mounted. Palomino had me pull my cheesy monster zip cord off so we could use his Western Electric (or whatever it is) copper speaker wire to try and keep everything same/same between speakers.  I think we all liked how these sounded, and all missed the high end extension. They certainly don't suck!





Swapped back to Donnies





Sorry for the use of flash - but we were doing some low light listening.

These are the sexy Canadian made Westinghouse 807 speakers with Chinese made ceramic adapters. These tubes were true NOS from the 30s or 40s.  Steve mentioned them in a different thread, and I think he had some out during the last DECFEST. I did a little research, and the 807 is the predecessor to the 6L6, with an anode on the top. So with these adapters, they are easily useable in most 6L6 amps.  We had two sets of these, the set pictured, and a milspec ceramic base that were a little gassy, but solid (supposed NOS). I found a quad in Spain and jumped on them, hoping for the best. They are really nice in the Rachel!





Palomino's backwall diffusers - these are a fractal type, which work OK, but I still think more complex QRD23 would perform better.  ;)
(also - lineup of tubes stuck in foam at the bottom)





Rachel, 807 tubes, Donnie's speakers, and Pal's MAC setup. It was a great day of listening! I was there from about Noon till 6pm I think.



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Re: Year End CDApS Meeting
Reply #19 - 01/02/17 at 19:30:10
 
Wow, some near field listening if there ever was one.  

I've had interest in OBs but don't have the room to get them space in back.  My MG944s sit right on the wall and they work fine but other than something like that is out for now.
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Re: Year End CDApS Meeting
Reply #20 - 01/02/17 at 20:06:11
 
Quote:
I've had interest in OBs but don't have the room to get them space in back.


Yep, you have to give OB's room to blossom.
I take LR's comment about the looks of my speakers as a real compliment. I spent a huge amount of time and effort to make them look at least passable to me.
I also got lucky in listening to others in this forum so I could pick out quality drivers and where to put them in my baffles.
As I have said before, it was a real eye opening trip. Palo's room and equipment really showed me what is possible. I'm still in awe.
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Re: Year End CDApS Meeting
Reply #21 - 01/03/17 at 00:04:29
 
Yeah my room is 16'6" by 12'6" with only a 7'8" ceiling. It sounds bigger because of the diffusers.

The listening triangle 7'2" from center to center of the tang bands and then 7'2" to about where my ears are.

I have 4' behind the OBs. When I went less than that I didn't have the sound stage.

I think Ravens comment about the fractals is correct.  QRDs give you more bang  for the real estate.   But I got those fractals really cheap and I thought it was worth a shot.

So far the biggest bang for the buck is the foam based QRD 23's.  I would have to add it up but I am pretty sure those cost less than $60 each.  They took less time than the all wood QRD 13s (about $110 each) and more time than the QRD 7s (around $40 each).  The only ones I am proud of from a build quality standpoint are the QRD 13s.  Baltic is such great material.

I am really pleased with my soundstage now.  It's mostly a combo of room treatment, single driver mains, Augies biamped on the low end and DSD upsampling on the 2012 Mac mini.  
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Re: Year End CDApS Meeting
Reply #22 - 01/03/17 at 00:19:31
 
sorry.... whats "CDApS"?
secret club
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Re: Year End CDApS Meeting
Reply #23 - 01/03/17 at 01:26:03
 
Palomino, I gather only one person can enjoy the music at a time, correct?
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Re: Year End CDApS Meeting
Reply #24 - 01/03/17 at 01:30:22
 
Sorry.  It stands for Chicago Decware APpreciation Society.   Our mission is furthering the dark art of high fidelity with Decware products as the foundation of our learnings.

It was founded after Lonely Raven and I met at Zenfest a few years ago.  We live about 20 minutes from each other in the Chicago burbs.

We meet on an irregular schedule throughout the year.  Guests like Donnie are welcome any time. Usually we announce each meeting here on the forum.

No set agenda but typically we have a few things in mind for each meeting and equipment comparos are the norm.   It is my personal feeling that these meetings have been instrumental in the development of my room/system.

We rotate meeting location but lately most have been at my house because of my room treatment which is pretty revealing.
 
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Re: Year End CDApS Meeting
Reply #25 - 01/03/17 at 01:35:44
 
Yeah the room was setup for one person but at meetings we bobsled with another chair directly behind the listening chair.   The sound is a little different there but still pretty good.
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Re: Year End CDApS Meeting
Reply #26 - 01/04/17 at 02:11:11
 
thats a great idea.  while i have several audio friends that we get together for sessions, we are not into the same type of gear or sound of.  i find the decware gang are more similar in this respect.
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Re: Year End CDApS Meeting
Reply #27 - 01/05/17 at 14:51:15
 
Thanks for sharing all the info on the latest meeting.  Quick question on the Betsys and high frequencies.  These drivers can beam a bit and if you don't have the center of the driver pointing at your ear, you'll lose a lot of high frequency information.  Did you guys play around with rake angles to try and ameliorate this effect?

That said, the high's aren't reference quality on this driver, but for the money, they are very good.

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Re: Year End CDApS Meeting
Reply #28 - 01/05/17 at 15:05:45
 
Haven't played with that at all. They are literally just speakers countersunk into 3/4" MDF - not even a real base on them or anything, so they were leaning up against other speakers for support.

Now that I know they sound good, and are worth putting an effort into, I'll probably double the thickness of the baffle, and put a base on them that allows me to quickly tilt adjust the angle on the fly.

Thanks for the info about them beaming - that will help me figure out what I'm aiming for (literally LOL)
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Re: Year End CDApS Meeting
Reply #29 - 01/05/17 at 15:07:11
 

Also, thinking about these speakers, and another woodworking project I had in mind...you guys would laugh if I follow through with the baffle idea I just came up with! I won't give it away now, but I've got to try this idea now that it's in my head!

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Re: Year End CDApS Meeting
Reply #30 - 01/05/17 at 16:00:25
 
yeah we didn't play with angle which could have been a factor.  BTW, these drivers also produced impressive bass!
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Re: Year End CDApS Meeting
Reply #31 - 01/05/17 at 17:29:15
 
The secret is to make the baffles thick!
Of course that does make them a little hard to cart around.
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Re: Year End CDApS Meeting
Reply #32 - 01/05/17 at 17:30:45
 
I am thinking of making some prototypes out of MDF to see what that does for me when I mount my drivers in there.  You were 1.5" right?
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Re: Year End CDApS Meeting
Reply #33 - 01/05/17 at 21:28:28
 

I was assuming they were 3/4 + 3/4 - or 1.5" +/- .05 for Donnie.


So, does CDApS and the extended Decware family want to go in on a higher quality measurement microphone? I was speaking with some of the guys at AVSForums about integrating subs, and one of them recommended this over the UMIK-1 that Pal and I have.

http://www.isemcon.net/shopus/product_info.php?products_id=9

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Re: Year End CDApS Meeting
Reply #34 - 01/05/17 at 21:30:51
 
They felt at least that heavy.

Not that interested in a new mic.  I have tubes to buy (wink wink).
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Re: Year End CDApS Meeting
Reply #35 - 01/05/17 at 21:38:07
 
Well then, maybe that will help *me* buy the measurement Mic. LOL.

I still need to re-learn how to use REW.  I keep saying "this next weekend I'll hunker down and figure it out" but something else keeps coming up.

On a positive note - the DSP in the iNuke amp, and the simple digital crossover in the Crown really make integrating subs easy. I hooked up the 18" sealed box to one channel on my DirectStream (sub on RCA - Zen amp on Balanced) and had some low thumps going along with the MG944. It was fun, especially when some random track came on with Electronic Dance Music like bass and suddenly the room started shaking!

So because of that, I have high hopes for good integration of subs with the Betsy, MG944, or Home Theater.  Hell, now that it's this easy, it makes me want to start churning out subs for people again! I'm probably putting my Ashley and older (non-DSP)  Behringer up for sale soon.  I still have lots of bills to pay down, so I have to be really, really careful about any further spending for a while.



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Re: Year End CDApS Meeting
Reply #36 - 01/05/17 at 23:08:31
 
My speakers are made from two .75" thick 4'X8' sheets of MDF glued together.
That means that the material weighed in just under 200lbs!
I roughed out the pieces when they were still .75" thick and doweled the parts together so that they didn't shift when I glued them together.
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Re: Year End CDApS Meeting
Reply #37 - 01/06/17 at 00:18:58
 

Quote:
The secret is to make the baffles thick!
Of course that does make them a little hard to cart around.


Just like my women!

Quote:
My speakers are made from two .75" thick 4'X8' sheets of MDF glued together.
That means that the material weighed in just under 200lbs!
I roughed out the pieces when they were still .75" thick and doweled the parts together so that they didn't shift when I glued them together.


That's clever, I like the dowel idea.

Pal, or anyone else local that might need a hand with something like this - I have a biscuit joiner - sorta along the lines of Donnie's dowel idea. Plus special router bits to make duplicating or smoothing doubled up baffles like Donnie's easier to make.

Donnie, I don't envy all the cutting and sanding you went through to make those look so good.

How I get da sexy smoove and flush curves like dis.









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Re: Year End CDApS Meeting
Reply #38 - 01/06/17 at 00:53:14
 
LR, which Ashley?
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Re: Year End CDApS Meeting
Reply #39 - 01/06/17 at 01:02:51
 
L.R. That is some nice looking work.
Now you need to give me that box so that I could go crazy with paint, veneer, and shellac for a couple of weeks.
6 coats of primer and 6 coats of paint for the body, some nice Red Gum veneer with around 20 coats of shellac for the "pretty" face. I will need around 200 sheets of sandpaper of different grades to pull off the look!
I sometimes might go overboard with finishing. Lol
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Re: Year End CDApS Meeting
Reply #40 - 01/06/17 at 02:18:50
 
Lin

https://www.amazon.com/Ashly-3200-2-Channel-Power-Amplifier/dp/B006R2YRAY

I've plugged it in only to verify it works. While it's got nice horsepower - I'm enjoying the built in DSP of the CLASS-D amps...if not the sound.

Donnie - that would be awesome - feel free to hire me to build you something...I'd love to see how you finish it. But for me, I'm just going to Duratex them.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QCT8YRkmvSo


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Re: Year End CDApS Meeting
Reply #41 - 01/06/17 at 03:42:47
 
I was hoping a crossover.

Thanks.
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Re: Year End CDApS Meeting
Reply #42 - 01/06/17 at 05:00:49
 
Nope, just straight horsepower. Way better sounding than the D-Class amps, but it needs a processed source, or full range speakers.
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Re: Year End CDApS Meeting
Reply #43 - 01/06/17 at 11:32:01
 
Since you guys were here I have made a few changes.

First, In my hunt for what was causing some low level hum right before you guys got here, I pulled the power cord to the Crown and replaced it with a stock cord and a cheezy one at that.  I forgot to put my AC10 back in and the bottom end has tightened up since I did.

Second, I took apart the 2012 mini, pulled the stock switching power supply and put in filter adapter so I could run my external power supply.  Not as big a change as I had hoped but it smoothed things out and increased the size of the soundstage.

So the combination of the new mac mini, better power cord, the 807 tubes, Donnie's residual positive energy and the LPSU have given me the best hard hitting and crisp bass I have had plus the smoothest top end to date.  I think I have had a larger sound stage, but what I have now is acceptable.  I'm still a little haunted by the soundstage size of the Betsys.

Eric, that "sense of room" concept you and I talk about is better and really very good, but still not as I remember it.  I don't know if it was the monoliths, how I had the room configured back then or what, but that was pretty magical.

Do I really want to bring in 200 lbs of MDF and dirty up my garage again in search of Donnie's top end??
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Re: Year End CDApS Meeting
Reply #44 - 01/08/17 at 07:36:59
 

I don't think it would be 200# of MDF really. Hell, if you bring your OB panels over here, we can do the work in a couple hours in my garage, and I've got a dust collector!

I think your amazing soundstage, really *hearing* the room had something to do with how the monoliths project sound, and how you had your diffusers setup. I'm not sure you can get that same thing with the OBs without *more* diffusers....which you should be doing anyways.  :)

I'm glad to hear your front end is working better - I figured you'd get that sorted out again.

Speaking of diffusers...so I was going through the basement where I had piles of acoustic insulation material stacked up...and in the pile of stuff I found another pair of  foam diffusers in the box! I must have stashed them down there when Michelle moved in (temporarily) got so wrapped up in building diffusers that I forgot how many foam ones I had! So I have yet another pair (non-fractal ones too!) that I need to build a frame for and setup!!

We both need to get crackin on more diffuser builds!
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Re: Year End CDApS Meeting
Reply #45 - 01/10/17 at 19:54:53
 
I am not hearing the "room sound" with the monoliths either, so I am now tweaking audirvana (you can impact decay, etc) and diffuser position.

But I am not working too hard at it.  I have been digging my new mac mini and exploring in Tidal.

BTW if you want to breath in some formaldehyde this weekend, I received clearance from high command.  Not sure of how big my time window is but at least long enough to get some MDF to your place.   I'll bring my van and my mask.
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Re: Year End CDApS Meeting
Reply #46 - 01/10/17 at 23:14:41
 
Palo,
I'm betting that one 4'X8' sheet of .75" thick MDF would be more than enough material for your baffles(only 97 pounds!). Cut them out first, it makes it a whole lot easier to handle. Use Tightbond 2 to glue them together. I used a paint roller and hit both sides. I also figured out where the cutouts were going to be in the finished part and used those areas to screw the pieces together in the middle. Don't forget to pilot drill clearance holes on one side or the screw won't pull the pieces together.
I also drilled .375" holes in diagonal corners on my two plys and used some wood dowels to keep the material from floating around while drying.
Are you thinking about offsetting your drivers?
My goodness, what a stream of thought post.
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Re: Year End CDApS Meeting
Reply #47 - 01/11/17 at 01:10:24
 
Thanks for the tips.  I was thinking I could get by with one sheet as well.  

I am thinking of doing some offset. Is there a magical offset formula??
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Re: Year End CDApS Meeting
Reply #48 - 01/11/17 at 01:39:40
 
Palo,
The magic numbers are:
Baffle 24" wide
Alpha's on the centerline and 14" up from the bottom
TB's 6" over from the centerline 34" up from the bottom.
All dimensions are to the center of the drivers.
I really don't know if my radiused top helps or not.
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Re: Year End CDApS Meeting
Reply #49 - 01/11/17 at 02:16:15
 
Are the magic numbers...offset from centerline or the baffle width for the different drivers?  Or both?
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Re: Year End CDApS Meeting
Reply #50 - 01/11/17 at 10:59:08
 
The 8" TB is offset from the centerline 6". But on a 24"baffle it is 6" from the edge! Baffling isn't it, lol.
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Re: Year End CDApS Meeting
Reply #51 - 01/11/17 at 11:58:50
 


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Re: Year End CDApS Meeting
Reply #52 - 01/11/17 at 13:24:06
 
Thanks Dave.  Love seeing examples.

Does anyone know what the offset driver does?  What's the theory / effect.
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Re: Year End CDApS Meeting
Reply #53 - 01/11/17 at 16:16:30
 
http://www.gadgets.co.nz/mjv/loudspeakers/exp01.shtml

http://www.speakerdesign.net/audioXpress/diffraction/diffraction.html


It seems like offset it done to compensate for crossover phase, or baffle/speaker interference. But I don't believe either of those apply in our situations since we're running single driver full range with flat baffles (no speaker or edge obstructions). The only thing we could do better would be to round the edges of our baffles over...which I'm going to do when I clean up my MDF.

That said, the baffle itself does have an effect on the frequency (reflected?) response of the speaker. So, (I'm just grasping here as I've only read up on OB offset for 15 minutes and really haven't found much so far), maybe you could look at the baffle like room reflections. e.g. if you put your speaker dead center in a cube room, you'd have equal (and ugly) reflections from all directions. But if you put the speaker on the 1/3 line of the room, and your seating at 1/3 line of the room, you're mitigating some of those issues.

So maybe baffle offset is keeping your baffle from having a strong effect at one particular frequency that would be equal to the distance from the edge of the driver to the matching edge of all four sides of your square baffle. An offset would make the 4 edges of the baffle affect four different frequencies at a lower level rather than 4 equal edges affecting one frequency four times!

Make sense?

Again, I'm just speculating.

If we were taking measurements we could probably document this like the guy did in that first  link I posted.

I still think we should make you two baffles my friend. Double up your existing, and make an offset one.
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Re: Year End CDApS Meeting
Reply #54 - 01/11/17 at 16:26:23
 
Ok, this popped into my head - maybe not super helpful at this point since you have your baffle/frame cut out. But if I were able to start fresh with your setup, I'd do a Fibonacci golden ratio spiral to figure out the baffle size, and offset location of the speaker. Maybe it can still be done since your baffle simply bolts to your frame?




Edit to add - just for clarity - use the sequence to figure out the proper rectangular size of your baffle, and the start point of the spiral would be the center point of your driver.

Or could could cut out a giant snail shell spiral and mount it to your frame if you want.  I could absolutely see me doing that.  :D
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Re: Year End CDApS Meeting
Reply #55 - 01/11/17 at 18:00:10
 
I was thinking of just doubling up two 24X48 pieces of MDF, routing a couple of holes and slapping my drivers in it.  Maybe offset the full rangers.  Make foot like Randy has on his Betsy's, glue it and screw it  and then listen to it.

Of course, I am from the "giterdone" school of speaker design.

If I like what I hear, then think about more exotic designs/finishes.
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Re: Year End CDApS Meeting
Reply #56 - 01/11/17 at 18:18:58
 
I'm still considering a tweeter for my Betsy speakers by the way. I just really don't know what to choose, or what I should be looking at. I've even considered a budget Air Motion Tweeter from Parts Express. They have some that go up to 44k, but they aren't terribly efficient.

But then again, some high-frequency is better than none?
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Re: Year End CDApS Meeting
Reply #57 - 01/11/17 at 18:20:29
 
Wonder if you ears were a little more on-axis.  Maybe there would not be as much fall off of the high freqs?

Where is you mystery speaker review??  Inquiring minds want to know.
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Re: Year End CDApS Meeting
Reply #58 - 01/11/17 at 18:30:23
 
I've been doing this thing called work...in order to pay this pile of other things called bills, so I have a house to store my audio equipment in.

As for the Betsys - there is only so much high-frequency we can get out of them. Steve mentioned his favorite of Randy's OBs were the ones with tweeters, so I have feeling I'm on the right track.

Also, while you and I are messing with diffusers, Steve is designing and building giant wind chimes...like, 4' long windchimes tuned to ancient musical scales. I was quite in awe.
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Re: Year End CDApS Meeting
Reply #59 - 01/11/17 at 18:32:18
 
hmmm work??  Taking precedence over audio?  Strange.

Just a few lines with a more later tag line would suffice.
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Re: Year End CDApS Meeting
Reply #60 - 01/11/17 at 22:32:48
 
Holy crap! My design is around 36% of L.R.'s spiral.



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Re: Year End CDApS Meeting
Reply #61 - 01/12/17 at 17:27:49
 
Hey Donnie, I have been wondering...at my house you ran your speakers with the full rangers on the inside.  Do you run them at home on the outside?  Differences?

Raven, once I get to this point, I will probably stop working on my roomL

http://www.acousticfields.com/personal-listening-environment/
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Re: Year End CDApS Meeting
Reply #62 - 01/12/17 at 18:12:39
 

I would be happy if we got to the full on Acoustic Fields level of room treatment. That's really what I'm hoping to achieve.

I thought of Donnie's speakers and how close they already are to my golden ratio idea....may have even inspired it to pop into my head.
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Re: Year End CDApS Meeting
Reply #63 - 01/12/17 at 18:15:38
 
That acoustic fields video got me thinking about the ceiling again.  I may experiment with putting some reverse fractals up there.  They would be light enough to hang.  An easy experiment.
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Re: Year End CDApS Meeting
Reply #64 - 01/12/17 at 19:30:30
 
You guys kill me.
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Re: Year End CDApS Meeting
Reply #65 - 01/12/17 at 19:46:57
 
You should talk to my wife.  She takes pictures and sends them to her family so they have something to make fun of me with.
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Re: Year End CDApS Meeting
Reply #66 - 01/12/17 at 20:28:37
 
Quote:
That acoustic fields video got me thinking about the ceiling again.  I may experiment with putting some reverse fractals up there.  They would be light enough to hang.  An easy experiment.


Yeah? The Acoustic Fields video does that and not me pointing to your ceiling and suggesting it during our last session?

If we had more members in our club, I'd demote you!  ;)


I had a guy stop by to pick up some of the recording studio bits I put up for sale (stuff I inherited from my Dad). Turns out he's a Jazz musician (keyboards/piano), and was interested in acoustics...I'm like...allow me to show you my mad-scientist bachelor pad home theater audiophile livingroom...

Oddly enough, he asked me to que up a track from the Rockstar Movie Soundtrack...which was even odder that I didn't have it since I collect movie soundtracks!  Instead I played  Kind of Blue - Blue In Green and only seconds into it he was gone...head down, eyes closed, still as a statue. He perked up once or twice when something caught his attention. At the end he was really excited about hearing stuff he'd never heard before...said it sounded like he was right there listening to them at some small venue. I didn't even have it that loud, I could have pushed the ZMA better.

We were up till almost 2am talking acoustics, and he invited me to an album release event/concert on the 23rd.
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Re: Year End CDApS Meeting
Reply #67 - 01/12/17 at 20:59:32
 
You are so sensitive.  Fact be known I was thinking about it before you said anything.  Just seeing that video made me think of the test.
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Re: Year End CDApS Meeting
Reply #68 - 01/12/17 at 21:48:30
 
I know you are, but what am I!



Quit thinking about it and go do it.

If I don't go out tonight, I think I'll be hitting the garage to make big pieces of material into little ones, then glue them into something acoustic.
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Re: Year End CDApS Meeting
Reply #69 - 01/12/17 at 22:00:14
 
Am I Lucy or Ricky?

I think I just need some anchors to screw into the styro and I am a go baby!
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Re: Year End CDApS Meeting
Reply #70 - 01/12/17 at 22:35:11
 
Palo, No I never have changed sides on my speakers. I have a long weekend ahead of me, so I will give it a try. The only issue I see is that my speaker cables might come up a little short on the right side. No hill for a climber.
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Re: Year End CDApS Meeting
Reply #71 - 01/13/17 at 14:24:47
 
Yeah, I'd like to hear what you think.  In my small room I found myself wishing they were further apart.  If I do offset in my mondo MDF baffle experiment, I may not go the full 6" offset.  Maybe try 4".

Per Raven's nudge, I grabbed my stryro diffusers and thought I would try to hang them.  But first I put them on top of the diffusers in front.  This was in part laziness, but also because I had seen diffusers running horizontal and vertical in the Acoustic Fields video.

Well I never got around to trying them on the ceiling.  After I heard what this positioning did for the height of the soundstage, I just listened to music for the rest of the night.  

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Re: Year End CDApS Meeting
Reply #72 - 01/13/17 at 15:42:57
 

Yeah, I could see that helping. That's how I have it on my side walls, and what I do on my front wall when I block the screen...but I have too much stuff up front still to setup a dedicated wall like yours. Ugh, getting jealous.

Also, as I get more of my deep wood diffusers built, I'll possibly be parting with some of my foam. I will try it first in the spare bedroom (which isn't anywhere near ready to play music yet), but then get moved out as the MDF rolls in! LOL

Since I'm not really critical listening right now, I could probably spot you a pair of invert-fractals to add to your ceiling. Especially since I found a pair of those other ones (PKI was it?) still in the box.
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Re: Year End CDApS Meeting
Reply #73 - 01/13/17 at 15:56:01
 
Crappy photos I took a couple weeks back - I was playing with the pano and 360 view features of my phone's camera. I'll go back and do better once I get the listening room sorted better.






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Re: Year End CDApS Meeting
Reply #74 - 01/13/17 at 16:29:50
 
Wow.  I am speechless.  I have no speech.
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Re: Year End CDApS Meeting
Reply #75 - 01/13/17 at 17:33:56
 

I know it's a mess - but I'm getting it sorted out at I build frames for the foam diffusers, and selling off extra speakers and amps and stuffs.
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Re: Year End CDApS Meeting
Reply #76 - 01/14/17 at 00:14:24
 
Palo,
Allright, I swapped my speakers side for side.
So far I'm not impressed, it sounds a little more congested, not as open. I'm not talking a lot, maybe 2-3 percent, if that.
But I have to put a big disclaimer on my findings, I ran out of speaker cable on my right side and had to pull that speaker to the left by a good 12"-16". I will need to move my amp off of it's maple stand and put it on my desk so I can shift to the right some more. That sounds like a project for the morning, if we have electricity, there is a big ice storm moving this way!
I will report back!
PS,
I'm sitting between the speakers typing this and the effect is kind of freaky. "Shine On You Crazy Diamond" is kind of swirling around my head right now, peace, love, dope!
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Re: Year End CDApS Meeting
Reply #77 - 01/14/17 at 22:15:07
 
I was reading your thread and started to wonder about the conclusion you drew regarding the high frequency response of your Betsy clone compared to the other 8 inch drivers that you listened to.  

It became clear that all of you agreed these other drivers had superior high end response so I began to wonder if you realized the true nature of those driver's response?  The Tang Band shown below for example has a characteristically tipped up "single driver" response where you get a fairly straight line between 1K and 10K with 10K being 10dB louder than 1K.  



The best you can hope to do is create lots of bass between 100 & 500Hz to balance out the treble which invariably leaves you with happy face curve where the midrange is dished out.

I bring this up because my impression of the Betsy 8 inch driver is that because of it's flatter response it doesn't have to be paired with larger drivers to balance out the response making it rather unique in the world of 8 inch full range drivers and this is why I like it so much.  One of these days I'll measure it's actual frequency response and see where the top end rolls off, but even if it were flat to 30kHz, a driver that's 10dB louder at 10K is always going to be perceived as having tons more high end.






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Re: Year End CDApS Meeting
Reply #78 - 01/14/17 at 22:54:44
 
Steve,
You are correct about our perceptions. Palo's and especially my open baffles, sound to my ears "sparkly". Definitely tipped towards the high end.
L.R.'s Betsies sounded really good to my tired ears, and truthfully were probably the most neutral sounding speakers that we listened to.
More than likely, what we perceived as lack of top end could have been colored by our listening to "hot" speakers just before them.
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Re: Year End CDApS Meeting
Reply #79 - 01/15/17 at 04:16:07
 
Donnie I think we also had the Augies running along with the Betsys which could have also contributed to the lower end being pumped up and the dive in the high frequencies on the meter.

I  Heard them At Eric's today and they did not sound rolled off.

We built a couple baffles at Eric's today.  I have a little finishing work on them but should be able to give them a listen on Monday.
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Re: Year End CDApS Meeting
Reply #80 - 01/15/17 at 04:38:54
 

Steve, thanks for the insight. Our perception might have been tipped.

As Tom mentioned, we glued up and cut some double thick baffles like yours, but square. More on that in another thread, I don't want to steal Palomino's thunder.

But while he was over, we listened (briefly) to my Magnepan MG-II (which sold today to a guy who appreciates vintage gear) my MG-944, and the Betsy. Everything sounded really good. Pretty much everything was listenable...which by are standards is pretty damn good! LOL

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Re: Year End CDApS Meeting
Reply #81 - 01/15/17 at 14:37:05
 
I started a thread over in DIY about our day long CDApS meeting yesterday and building the "Donnie baffles."
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Re: Year End CDApS Meeting
Reply #82 - 02/01/17 at 05:22:27
 
I'm going to revive this thread and ask some questions about Betsy.

I've been thinking a lot about these speakers the last few nights.  I find myself ready to move on from my Hawthorne days (which would still have their place for Betsy bass augmentation and the occasional rock or techno "concert"), and wondering if one were to give Betsy the consideration and effort I gave the Hawthornes, just how special could they be?

The most notable curiosity is the impression from CDApS about the high frequency response.  I believe the soundstage claims after reading multiple sources including those of Pal and Raven whom I trust, but I have doubts (like Steve) that they have insuffficient high end, especially when played back to back against the Tang Bands which I know are a bit hot.  So, what's the story?

Randy does have a model with a tweeter to improve extension, and I also believe with an on/off switch to play with.  Did I read that somewhere?  If it were your money would you go this route without hesitation?
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Re: Year End CDApS Meeting
Reply #83 - 02/01/17 at 05:26:37
 
By the way, I am super bummed that I can't join you anymore.  Loved going back to read this thread.  You really are both crazy with the diffusers Wink
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Re: Year End CDApS Meeting
Reply #84 - 02/01/17 at 15:37:55
 
Here are my thoughts on the Betsys.

I believe Steve has a point although I am not sure I see the same frequency response plot.  I dug out some old REW graphs and I actually had a roll off at the high end, but that was likely with Torii.  I tried to measure with Rachael last night (what we listened to at the last meeting) but could not get my DAC to play through it.  With El Capitan, I can't go straight USB and am using that SPDIF converter which El Capitan recognizes, but doesn't seem to want to produce sound through.

Anyway, after Steve's post I put in some Silverline monitors I have and had the same reaction.  Where's the high end?  After listening a while I think my ears adjusted and while still a little warm, the high end was fine.

Second data point is on the day that Raven and I built the OB baffles, I listened to the Betsy clones at his house and experienced the same huge soundstage but didn't come away with a "where's the high end opinion."

Now if I could get Raven Wink to loan me his Betsy drivers, I would mount them in one of my baffles with a Augie and listen to them for a few days. Then I could give you an opinion and maybe Eric could too.

I may end up buying some Betsys myself as I think I want to go OB in the cottage system. I thought as an inexpensive pair of OBs I would go with Betsys with a 15A for the bottom end.  After hearing the 15A and the Augies back to back, I think the Augies are worth the extra money, but just not in the budget right now.
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Re: Year End CDApS Meeting
Reply #85 - 02/01/17 at 16:22:14
 

Quote:
Now if I could get Raven Wink to loan me his Betsy drivers, I would mount them in one of my baffles with a Augie and listen to them for a few days. Then I could give you an opinion and maybe Eric could too.


All you had to do was ask, brother. I'm not even using them right now, they are set off to the side, and will be taken off my "baffles" so I can trim and paint the baffles and make them pretty. Currently the Blue Zu are in place, and I'm still not liking them. They are for sure going up for sale (P.S. Rob, that means I like the $125 pair of Betsy better than my $1000 pair of Zu Audio).

For the money, I can't find anything better...maybe there is something and I've just not stumbled across it...it's not like I'm actively looking...but these speakers do so much right. I'm still not convinced either way on the treble; but then, I like a really ultra high frequency because I swear it gives more and better spacial cues. I'll reevaluate and maybe take measurements as well, but later, after I get these baffles cleaned up and painted.

I've also got a lot going on personally right now, so I'm kind of in a flatspin and waiting for Goose to pull the ejector.

On a listeningroom/home theater note. My trusty Mitsubishi HC5500 gave up the ghost after 8 years and many thousands of hours of binge watching TV shows, movies, and movie nights with friends. So the money I was saving up to buy a new bandsaw got redirected to a $1200 Epson Home Cinema projector, and I'm building a friggen ginormous "acoustically transparent" projection screen...which will allow me to move my Klipsch Home Theater speakers behind the screen and out of the way of the MG944...and also prompting me to build an audio rack and probably move all my gear out from between the speakers, allow more space for my two channel setup to breath (and more diffusers LOL)


Not a great photo, it was really late and I've had several sleepless nights...current screen I built 8 years ago is a 2x4 frame topped with white, lightly textured countertop material, and the trim is literally window casing wrapped in Joanne fabrics black velvet. I cracked the thin melamine trying to move the screen myself several years ago - and I've always wanted an acoustically transparent screen.

The vertical Blue Tape lines is the width of the future screen. It will have to be floated off the wall 12"-13" for the Klipsch speakers to fit behind and the incoming projector moved back a few feet.



So, expect some changes in Raven's Haven Cinema and Audio Delights.  ;)

P.S. hopefully starting building diffusers for Axpona this weekend!!
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Re: Year End CDApS Meeting
Reply #86 - 02/01/17 at 16:29:31
 

Ceiling shot from between the speakers facing back.




Older photo when I was playing with the Betsy drivers in different locations. I hope to clean all this up and just have a giant screen, pair of MG944, and sound treatment all around.



Speaking of which, these ceiling diffusers and absorption tiles are going to be posted in the Classifieds....today probably.





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Reply #87 - 02/01/17 at 16:56:57
 
Sounds good.  I'll ask to borrow them when I get a little breathing room.  Right now, I am kind of wrapped up with work and family.

The fact that you don't have any obvious issues should be a good sign Rob.  My only other thought is that I recall Randy saying they were not for head bangers and while I don't consider you one, you do like your progressive rock...
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Re: Year End CDApS Meeting
Reply #88 - 02/01/17 at 17:08:59
 
Wait, he likes Progressive Rock? Who Knew!  :P

Don't take too long coming to borrow these drivers - if I'm done building the baffles, they may just have to stay here.  :)
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Re: Year End CDApS Meeting
Reply #89 - 02/01/17 at 17:11:29
 
I understand the risks...

I might try to swing by this weekend.  I thought I could last weekend but the chain was jerked.
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Re: Year End CDApS Meeting
Reply #90 - 02/01/17 at 17:16:00
 
Cool LR & Pal. I enjoy following this Thread. Inspires me to get my Listening Room to sound even better.
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Re: Year End CDApS Meeting
Reply #91 - 02/01/17 at 17:30:33
 

We do hope to inspire!

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Re: Year End CDApS Meeting
Reply #92 - 02/01/17 at 22:43:51
 
Thanks for the input guys.  Next step is to talk to Randy.

Rob
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Re: Year End CDApS Meeting
Reply #93 - 02/02/17 at 15:08:22
 
Hi ProggRob,

I've got some of Randy's open baffle speakers.  For me, if I play them as designed with the speakers essentially pointing at my knees, I find the highs to be lacking.  Everything sounds a bit muffled.  When I play them, I angle them back so the center of the driver points at my ears...this also improves the specificity of images within the sound stage.

I have heard Randy's speakers with the tweeter (and the on off switch) as well and when you switch the tweeter on, it does at a sense of airiness to the sound.

I've had a lot of fun playing with these speakers.  Their strength is that they really do throw a huge sound stage.  I do find that they are weak in the bass and I don't think even Randy would disagree with me in saying that if you are looking for reference sound, you will need a subwoofer.  No matter where I put mine, I feel that the bass is rolling off at 70-80hz.

For the money, these are a no brainer.  Good luck in your decision.
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Re: Year End CDApS Meeting
Reply #94 - 02/02/17 at 16:03:36
 

Agreed - add a sub with them. Randy had a nice OB sub in the mix during the last Decfest, and Steve said he prefers them with an OB sub.

I'm currently running a single 18" in a sealed box off a Crown amp with built in DSP (for the crossover). I tend to cross it way lower than I really need to, just because I like having the sub be completely non-directional and just filling in the deepest for a good foundation.
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Re: Year End CDApS Meeting
Reply #95 - 02/02/17 at 16:05:29
 
Thanks for weighing in seikosha.  How do you think they would work in my proposed setup where they would be above the Augie at ear level (without a tweeter)?

Rob, I have seen various configurations that Randy has built including floor to ceiling multi-driver monsters.  I am sure he could build you whatever fits your needs.
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Re: Year End CDApS Meeting
Reply #96 - 02/02/17 at 16:09:03
 
Quote:
Rob, I have seen various configurations that Randy has built including floor to ceiling multi-driver monsters.


Wow, I wish I could hear something like that!
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Re: Year End CDApS Meeting
Reply #97 - 02/02/17 at 17:53:30
 
Palomino,

My guess is that your implementation would be pretty good.  I'm far from an OB expert though....I've got much more experience with Single Driver designs in conventional cabinets.  I suspect that you might want to make sure you have plenty of baffle around the Betsy though, you might run into a suck out up into the midrange if you don't.  I bet Randy could give you some advice on this.

 Again, you are not going to get world class highs with the Betsy, and this is true with any single driver system I've heard, but the speaker makes up for it with midrange coherency, imaging and sound stage.

Keep us posted with your progress.
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Re: Year End CDApS Meeting
Reply #98 - 02/02/17 at 23:41:24
 
seikosha,

I heard Randy's Betsy's at Zenfest last fall.  Ordered a flatpack set from him shortly after that, because I figured I'd want to "customize" them a bit -  you know how as "philes" are - we just can't leave well enough alone..!!!
I added back bracing for the front baffle... and I did some experimentation with them while I was designing the brace.  I used a laser to figure out the angle to point them right at my head while seated in my normal listening chair and position.  Ended up being about a 10 degree tilt back... so I cut the bases and built the back brace to put the front baffle at a 10 degree tilt.  
My Betsy drivers were a little "flat" and muted sounding, especially in the highs, when new right out of the box.  But I would expect this for nearly any speaker, and this has always been my experience.  I do not have a ton of hours on my Betsy's yet, but I took them to our little local "CDAPs-like" meeting about a month ago, and we pounded on them pretty good for 5-6 hours straight.  They loosened up and started sounding significantly(noticeably) better after just an hour or so.  I think Randy says they need about 50 hours to really come on song.
I have listened to some of my reference music with brushes on snares, bells, chimes, etc. and all the music comes through.  I can relate a bit to some folks talking about adding tweeters to them and a sense of "air" they add.  I wish I better understood what was going on there acoustically.  I too have heard this phenomena, but listening to the Betsy's without tweeters, everything seems to be "present and accounted for".  If I was going to add a tweeter, it would be a ribbon or one of the multitude of AMT-like tweeters on the market these days.  Highpass pretty far up and keep it simple - one cap.  Might try it one of these days, but I'm enjoying them without high frequency augmentation right now.

I have to have "bass".  Every since I deployed the first subwoofer in my system decades ago, I just can't live without the foundation.  The electric bass guitar and stand-up bass need to "purr" in my room, just like they do when hearing them live.  I haven't heard a speaker yet, that didn't benefit from a sub (two or more, are even better - not for quantity but for even response in the room).  The Betsy Baffles are no exception.  I have used Velodyne digital drive(sealed box) subs as well as the Hawthorne Augie drivers in open baffle subs.  In my 2-channel rig, I prefer the Augie's with just about every speaker I have ever tried them with - including the Betsy's.  
I would even go so far as to say, a sub is a necessity with the Betsy Baffles.  Now... if you built a bigger baffle for the Betsy's... that would likely change things.  However, I have only heard the Betsy drivers in the "barrel baffles" that Randy makes, and they sound superb on the types of music Randy advocates them for.  With a push-pull amp like a Decware Torii (I have one), they will rock-n-roll pretty good when a sub is added in.  Not "head banger" music, but classic rock, like from the 70's type rock.
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Re: Year End CDApS Meeting
Reply #99 - 02/02/17 at 23:48:09
 
Palomino...

I can't see why a Betsy mounted higher with an Augie below it in the same baffle wouldn't work.... but there are advantages to putting the Augie in a separate baffle - so you can move it around in the room to where you get the best and most even bass response at your listening position, while putting the Betsy(any main speaker) in the position for best imaging - the two positions are almost always mutually exclusive.
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Re: Year End CDApS Meeting
Reply #100 - 02/03/17 at 00:41:04
 
I'm wondering what a Betsy-Eminence Alpha combo would sound like?
It would be pretty cost effective unless you went bonkers and doubled the alpha's up! I can't imagine anyone crazy enough to do something like that.
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Re: Year End CDApS Meeting
Reply #101 - 02/03/17 at 02:47:07
 
Seikosha, Pal, LR and Maddog... the Decware forum steps up once again!  You guys rock.

I think it bears repeating that I will keep my Hawthornes for bass (and head banging) purposes, so stereo bass is in play with one Rythmik plate amp and 2x 15" Augies per channel.  No issues there.  I can even move them around for best integration as MD suggests.

The issue is now whether or not to fill out the highs.  Depending on cost, I may decide to pass on it for now.  However, having owned the Hawthornes I am kind of desperate for better extension... I guess we'll see.  I really want to keep the cost down and save the extra money for other goals, like a dedicated power line (maybe with its own ground) and diffusion.

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Re: Year End CDApS Meeting
Reply #102 - 02/03/17 at 12:26:13
 
Some light reading on open baffles for everyone to enjoy!

http://www.digitalaudioreview.net/2017/01/kih-40-openly-baffled/

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Re: Year End CDApS Meeting
Reply #103 - 02/03/17 at 18:33:29
 
Good article.  Thanks Dave.

In the comments, it references a youtube OB video.  While I think that particular recording would sound pretty "big" on any speakers the video does get across the OB sound:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2ozT41TKqRM
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Re: Year End CDApS Meeting
Reply #104 - 02/03/17 at 21:31:13
 
"Rob, I have seen various configurations that Randy has built including floor to ceiling multi-driver monsters.  I am sure he could build you whatever fits your needs."

Since you asked .....



Larger photo here.

I have no intention on adding anything to this thread ..... since I am slightly biased toward the Betsy baffles I build, except to say that I prefer a pair of Betsy baffles and a pair of Augie drivers in separate baffles to the speakers in the photo above .....

Happy listening,

Randy
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Re: Year End CDApS Meeting
Reply #105 - 02/03/17 at 21:40:28
 
That's the photo Smiley

Why do you prefer them separate?  Positioning options as suggested above?
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Re: Year End CDApS Meeting
Reply #106 - 02/04/17 at 01:52:42
 
Hi Palomino,

I really didn't want to interject myself in this thread for obvious reasons.
Since I sell a speaker that uses the Betsy driver it's impossible for me to not have a slight bias ..... even though Caintuck Audio is a hobby as much as a business.

The audio hobby is very much dependent on personal taste and preference .... so the following comments are to be understood as such.

The speakers in the photo use two Hawthorne Audio Augie 15" drivers, two Visaton B200 drivers and a Heil Air Motion Transformer in an enhanced MTM configuration.
The Augie drivers were powered by duel plate amplifiers ..... one for each channel.

Anyone familiar with the Heil AMT driver knows that the high frequencies are excellent, probably world class. So, it shouldn't be expected that the top end of the Betsy driver will match the extension and air of the AMT.
Having said that, when listening to the Betsy baffles without any additional help on the top end, I don't feel that I'm missing anything. The top end is extremely natural sounding and things like bells and chimes sound very good as well as the upper harmonics of other instruments.

It has been my experience that it's very easy to be impressed by the "wow factor" of any component during the initial listening session, but long term listening often reveals that too much of anything creates listener fatigue. The natural sounding top end of the Betsy driver contributes to long listening sessions and that is important to me.

I have been a big fan of "low boy" open baffles for a long time.
Being able to look over the tops of the baffles and still have a full height image and sound stage is an amazing illusion and it allows me to focus on the music rather than the equipment.

The speakers in the photo produced a BIG sound .....  but as crazy as it sounds the little Betsy baffles produce a sound that is nearly as big and I can move the Betsy baffles with two fingers.
Moving those big baffles required two men and a boy .....

I prefer to have the bass drivers on separate baffles for a couple of reasons.
First, it allows me to keep the main baffles under 24" in height.
Second, while it is certainly possible to mechanically isolate the drivers on a single baffle to reduce vibration affecting the Betsy drivers ... it is easier in my opinion to just put them on separate baffles.
It has already been mentioned that being able to move the bass drivers around is useful for optimizing the sound from them. I have found this to be true.

I know that many folks are fans of "nearfield" listening and many people do not have the luxury of a large listening room, but unless a person has heard the Betsy drivers 10 to 12 feet from the listening seat they really haven't heard them.
Truthfully, at 15 to 20 feet from the baffles the sound resembles a live event.
The sound I was getting in the 17' x 35' room at my recently closed storefront was so good that many visitors didn't believe the music was actually coming from "those little speakers".

As a final thought, there is something about the sound of a single full range driver that is special ..... especially when powered by an amplifier like a Decware SET.
The coherency can be jaw dropping .....

To make the system truly full range, the bottom end needs to be enhanced ..... but that is easily and inexpensively done with an Augie or Eminence Alpha driver on a third baffle and a plate amp. A 12" Alpha driver works as well as a 15" Alpha ..... just a different sound. The 15" goes lower, the 12" is tighter and faster.

So ..... there's my 2 cents for what it's worth.
Whether a person buys speakers from me or builds their own using the Betsy drivers, the results are a lot of musical bang for the buck.

Happy listening,


Randy

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Caintuck Audio Lii 15 Open Bass Baffle
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Re: Year End CDApS Meeting
Reply #107 - 02/04/17 at 03:12:04
 
Here is a photo of my current setup in my home listening room :



Larger photo here.

The 12" Alpha drivers in the baffles to the outsides of the room are crossed over at 100 HZ with a low pass filter like Steve had set up with the SO Imperials at Decware Fest 2016.

An SE84UFO is driving everything and the sound is superb .....

The room is 16' x 26' with an 8' ceiling.

Happy listening,

Randy
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CEC TL5N belt drive CD transport
Cambridge Audio Azur 851N DAC / Streamer
Decware SE84UFO amplifier
Caintuck Audio Betsy Open Baffles
Caintuck Audio Lii Silver-10 Open Baffles
Caintuck Audio Lii 15 Open Bass Baffle
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Re: Year End CDApS Meeting
Reply #108 - 02/04/17 at 14:45:01
 
Do you mean that hobby that got your Betsys on the Stereo Times Most Wanted List for 2016? Wink. I always like to mention that fact because of all your contributions to this forum.   I hope that for every poser like me that thinks he can run a router that there are 20 more who will do the smart thing and just buy your proven design.

I do recall that the further back from the Betsys the better at the fest.  This may not work as well for me given my room size.  At my cottage they may work much better as it's a much longer and taller room.

I also can relate to the low profile design having advantages.  It took me some time to put my baffles out of my mind when I first built them.  You actually think you can hear them until you put it out of your mind.

Anyway, thanks for popping in and sharing.  I will continue to play around with open baffles.  I don't think there is any going back to monkey coffins for me.
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Re: Year End CDApS Meeting
Reply #109 - 02/04/17 at 17:02:43
 
Palo,
No more "Monkey Coffins" for me either.
But I am thinking about Snake Coffins.
I have been looking at Sonotube concrete forms more and more and a plan is starting to come together in my head.
Something round, the ends cut at 45 degrees, parallel to each other, mounted on a 45 degree cradle.
It is the time of the year when I start getting the itch to build something.
I wonder how to finish a cardboard tube to my satisfaction.....?
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Re: Year End CDApS Meeting
Reply #110 - 02/05/17 at 00:00:05
 
Donnie,

You veneer it!
Zygi
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Re: Year End CDApS Meeting
Reply #111 - 02/05/17 at 15:32:35
 
Well I got the Betsys from El Presidente.  Got them to work in my old baffles and gave them a listen.  As maddog said nothing seems to be missing.  They are not as pinpoint precise as the Tang Bands but I do feel they are more musical and forgiving.  

When I put them in I at first thought they were a little flat but again I think that is the transition from the hot tang bands.  I am listening to some hit hat cymbals right now and all is fine.

I do think that Randy is right in that these are better near the floor.  I think the cast a bigger soundstage from that position than at ear level. Overall an enjoyable and non fatiguing driver.  I have caught myself Toe tapping on several occasions.
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Re: Year End CDApS Meeting
Reply #112 - 02/05/17 at 15:44:25
 
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Re: Year End CDApS Meeting
Reply #113 - 02/05/17 at 17:47:52
 
Nice bolts!
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