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Year End CDApS Meeting (Read 64577 times)
Donnie
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Re: Year End CDApS Meeting
Reply #50 - 01/11/17 at 10:59:08
 
The 8" TB is offset from the centerline 6". But on a 24"baffle it is 6" from the edge! Baffling isn't it, lol.
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Dave1210
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Re: Year End CDApS Meeting
Reply #51 - 01/11/17 at 11:58:50
 


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Palomino
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Re: Year End CDApS Meeting
Reply #52 - 01/11/17 at 13:24:06
 
Thanks Dave.  Love seeing examples.

Does anyone know what the offset driver does?  What's the theory / effect.
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Lonely Raven
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Re: Year End CDApS Meeting
Reply #53 - 01/11/17 at 16:16:30
 
http://www.gadgets.co.nz/mjv/loudspeakers/exp01.shtml

http://www.speakerdesign.net/audioXpress/diffraction/diffraction.html


It seems like offset it done to compensate for crossover phase, or baffle/speaker interference. But I don't believe either of those apply in our situations since we're running single driver full range with flat baffles (no speaker or edge obstructions). The only thing we could do better would be to round the edges of our baffles over...which I'm going to do when I clean up my MDF.

That said, the baffle itself does have an effect on the frequency (reflected?) response of the speaker. So, (I'm just grasping here as I've only read up on OB offset for 15 minutes and really haven't found much so far), maybe you could look at the baffle like room reflections. e.g. if you put your speaker dead center in a cube room, you'd have equal (and ugly) reflections from all directions. But if you put the speaker on the 1/3 line of the room, and your seating at 1/3 line of the room, you're mitigating some of those issues.

So maybe baffle offset is keeping your baffle from having a strong effect at one particular frequency that would be equal to the distance from the edge of the driver to the matching edge of all four sides of your square baffle. An offset would make the 4 edges of the baffle affect four different frequencies at a lower level rather than 4 equal edges affecting one frequency four times!

Make sense?

Again, I'm just speculating.

If we were taking measurements we could probably document this like the guy did in that first  link I posted.

I still think we should make you two baffles my friend. Double up your existing, and make an offset one.
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Re: Year End CDApS Meeting
Reply #54 - 01/11/17 at 16:26:23
 
Ok, this popped into my head - maybe not super helpful at this point since you have your baffle/frame cut out. But if I were able to start fresh with your setup, I'd do a Fibonacci golden ratio spiral to figure out the baffle size, and offset location of the speaker. Maybe it can still be done since your baffle simply bolts to your frame?




Edit to add - just for clarity - use the sequence to figure out the proper rectangular size of your baffle, and the start point of the spiral would be the center point of your driver.

Or could could cut out a giant snail shell spiral and mount it to your frame if you want.  I could absolutely see me doing that.  :D
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Re: Year End CDApS Meeting
Reply #55 - 01/11/17 at 18:00:10
 
I was thinking of just doubling up two 24X48 pieces of MDF, routing a couple of holes and slapping my drivers in it.  Maybe offset the full rangers.  Make foot like Randy has on his Betsy's, glue it and screw it  and then listen to it.

Of course, I am from the "giterdone" school of speaker design.

If I like what I hear, then think about more exotic designs/finishes.
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Re: Year End CDApS Meeting
Reply #56 - 01/11/17 at 18:18:58
 
I'm still considering a tweeter for my Betsy speakers by the way. I just really don't know what to choose, or what I should be looking at. I've even considered a budget Air Motion Tweeter from Parts Express. They have some that go up to 44k, but they aren't terribly efficient.

But then again, some high-frequency is better than none?
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Re: Year End CDApS Meeting
Reply #57 - 01/11/17 at 18:20:29
 
Wonder if you ears were a little more on-axis.  Maybe there would not be as much fall off of the high freqs?

Where is you mystery speaker review??  Inquiring minds want to know.
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Re: Year End CDApS Meeting
Reply #58 - 01/11/17 at 18:30:23
 
I've been doing this thing called work...in order to pay this pile of other things called bills, so I have a house to store my audio equipment in.

As for the Betsys - there is only so much high-frequency we can get out of them. Steve mentioned his favorite of Randy's OBs were the ones with tweeters, so I have feeling I'm on the right track.

Also, while you and I are messing with diffusers, Steve is designing and building giant wind chimes...like, 4' long windchimes tuned to ancient musical scales. I was quite in awe.
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Re: Year End CDApS Meeting
Reply #59 - 01/11/17 at 18:32:18
 
hmmm work??  Taking precedence over audio?  Strange.

Just a few lines with a more later tag line would suffice.
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Donnie
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Re: Year End CDApS Meeting
Reply #60 - 01/11/17 at 22:32:48
 
Holy crap! My design is around 36% of L.R.'s spiral.



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Re: Year End CDApS Meeting
Reply #61 - 01/12/17 at 17:27:49
 
Hey Donnie, I have been wondering...at my house you ran your speakers with the full rangers on the inside.  Do you run them at home on the outside?  Differences?

Raven, once I get to this point, I will probably stop working on my roomL

http://www.acousticfields.com/personal-listening-environment/
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Re: Year End CDApS Meeting
Reply #62 - 01/12/17 at 18:12:39
 

I would be happy if we got to the full on Acoustic Fields level of room treatment. That's really what I'm hoping to achieve.

I thought of Donnie's speakers and how close they already are to my golden ratio idea....may have even inspired it to pop into my head.
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Re: Year End CDApS Meeting
Reply #63 - 01/12/17 at 18:15:38
 
That acoustic fields video got me thinking about the ceiling again.  I may experiment with putting some reverse fractals up there.  They would be light enough to hang.  An easy experiment.
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Re: Year End CDApS Meeting
Reply #64 - 01/12/17 at 19:30:30
 
You guys kill me.
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Re: Year End CDApS Meeting
Reply #65 - 01/12/17 at 19:46:57
 
You should talk to my wife.  She takes pictures and sends them to her family so they have something to make fun of me with.
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Re: Year End CDApS Meeting
Reply #66 - 01/12/17 at 20:28:37
 
Quote:
That acoustic fields video got me thinking about the ceiling again.  I may experiment with putting some reverse fractals up there.  They would be light enough to hang.  An easy experiment.


Yeah? The Acoustic Fields video does that and not me pointing to your ceiling and suggesting it during our last session?

If we had more members in our club, I'd demote you!  ;)


I had a guy stop by to pick up some of the recording studio bits I put up for sale (stuff I inherited from my Dad). Turns out he's a Jazz musician (keyboards/piano), and was interested in acoustics...I'm like...allow me to show you my mad-scientist bachelor pad home theater audiophile livingroom...

Oddly enough, he asked me to que up a track from the Rockstar Movie Soundtrack...which was even odder that I didn't have it since I collect movie soundtracks!  Instead I played  Kind of Blue - Blue In Green and only seconds into it he was gone...head down, eyes closed, still as a statue. He perked up once or twice when something caught his attention. At the end he was really excited about hearing stuff he'd never heard before...said it sounded like he was right there listening to them at some small venue. I didn't even have it that loud, I could have pushed the ZMA better.

We were up till almost 2am talking acoustics, and he invited me to an album release event/concert on the 23rd.
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Re: Year End CDApS Meeting
Reply #67 - 01/12/17 at 20:59:32
 
You are so sensitive.  Fact be known I was thinking about it before you said anything.  Just seeing that video made me think of the test.
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Re: Year End CDApS Meeting
Reply #68 - 01/12/17 at 21:48:30
 
I know you are, but what am I!



Quit thinking about it and go do it.

If I don't go out tonight, I think I'll be hitting the garage to make big pieces of material into little ones, then glue them into something acoustic.
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Re: Year End CDApS Meeting
Reply #69 - 01/12/17 at 22:00:14
 
Am I Lucy or Ricky?

I think I just need some anchors to screw into the styro and I am a go baby!
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Donnie
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Re: Year End CDApS Meeting
Reply #70 - 01/12/17 at 22:35:11
 
Palo, No I never have changed sides on my speakers. I have a long weekend ahead of me, so I will give it a try. The only issue I see is that my speaker cables might come up a little short on the right side. No hill for a climber.
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Re: Year End CDApS Meeting
Reply #71 - 01/13/17 at 14:24:47
 
Yeah, I'd like to hear what you think.  In my small room I found myself wishing they were further apart.  If I do offset in my mondo MDF baffle experiment, I may not go the full 6" offset.  Maybe try 4".

Per Raven's nudge, I grabbed my stryro diffusers and thought I would try to hang them.  But first I put them on top of the diffusers in front.  This was in part laziness, but also because I had seen diffusers running horizontal and vertical in the Acoustic Fields video.

Well I never got around to trying them on the ceiling.  After I heard what this positioning did for the height of the soundstage, I just listened to music for the rest of the night.  

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Re: Year End CDApS Meeting
Reply #72 - 01/13/17 at 15:42:57
 

Yeah, I could see that helping. That's how I have it on my side walls, and what I do on my front wall when I block the screen...but I have too much stuff up front still to setup a dedicated wall like yours. Ugh, getting jealous.

Also, as I get more of my deep wood diffusers built, I'll possibly be parting with some of my foam. I will try it first in the spare bedroom (which isn't anywhere near ready to play music yet), but then get moved out as the MDF rolls in! LOL

Since I'm not really critical listening right now, I could probably spot you a pair of invert-fractals to add to your ceiling. Especially since I found a pair of those other ones (PKI was it?) still in the box.
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Re: Year End CDApS Meeting
Reply #73 - 01/13/17 at 15:56:01
 
Crappy photos I took a couple weeks back - I was playing with the pano and 360 view features of my phone's camera. I'll go back and do better once I get the listening room sorted better.






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Re: Year End CDApS Meeting
Reply #74 - 01/13/17 at 16:29:50
 
Wow.  I am speechless.  I have no speech.
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Re: Year End CDApS Meeting
Reply #75 - 01/13/17 at 17:33:56
 

I know it's a mess - but I'm getting it sorted out at I build frames for the foam diffusers, and selling off extra speakers and amps and stuffs.
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Re: Year End CDApS Meeting
Reply #76 - 01/14/17 at 00:14:24
 
Palo,
Allright, I swapped my speakers side for side.
So far I'm not impressed, it sounds a little more congested, not as open. I'm not talking a lot, maybe 2-3 percent, if that.
But I have to put a big disclaimer on my findings, I ran out of speaker cable on my right side and had to pull that speaker to the left by a good 12"-16". I will need to move my amp off of it's maple stand and put it on my desk so I can shift to the right some more. That sounds like a project for the morning, if we have electricity, there is a big ice storm moving this way!
I will report back!
PS,
I'm sitting between the speakers typing this and the effect is kind of freaky. "Shine On You Crazy Diamond" is kind of swirling around my head right now, peace, love, dope!
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Re: Year End CDApS Meeting
Reply #77 - 01/14/17 at 22:15:07
 
I was reading your thread and started to wonder about the conclusion you drew regarding the high frequency response of your Betsy clone compared to the other 8 inch drivers that you listened to.  

It became clear that all of you agreed these other drivers had superior high end response so I began to wonder if you realized the true nature of those driver's response?  The Tang Band shown below for example has a characteristically tipped up "single driver" response where you get a fairly straight line between 1K and 10K with 10K being 10dB louder than 1K.  



The best you can hope to do is create lots of bass between 100 & 500Hz to balance out the treble which invariably leaves you with happy face curve where the midrange is dished out.

I bring this up because my impression of the Betsy 8 inch driver is that because of it's flatter response it doesn't have to be paired with larger drivers to balance out the response making it rather unique in the world of 8 inch full range drivers and this is why I like it so much.  One of these days I'll measure it's actual frequency response and see where the top end rolls off, but even if it were flat to 30kHz, a driver that's 10dB louder at 10K is always going to be perceived as having tons more high end.






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Re: Year End CDApS Meeting
Reply #78 - 01/14/17 at 22:54:44
 
Steve,
You are correct about our perceptions. Palo's and especially my open baffles, sound to my ears "sparkly". Definitely tipped towards the high end.
L.R.'s Betsies sounded really good to my tired ears, and truthfully were probably the most neutral sounding speakers that we listened to.
More than likely, what we perceived as lack of top end could have been colored by our listening to "hot" speakers just before them.
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Re: Year End CDApS Meeting
Reply #79 - 01/15/17 at 04:16:07
 
Donnie I think we also had the Augies running along with the Betsys which could have also contributed to the lower end being pumped up and the dive in the high frequencies on the meter.

I  Heard them At Eric's today and they did not sound rolled off.

We built a couple baffles at Eric's today.  I have a little finishing work on them but should be able to give them a listen on Monday.
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Re: Year End CDApS Meeting
Reply #80 - 01/15/17 at 04:38:54
 

Steve, thanks for the insight. Our perception might have been tipped.

As Tom mentioned, we glued up and cut some double thick baffles like yours, but square. More on that in another thread, I don't want to steal Palomino's thunder.

But while he was over, we listened (briefly) to my Magnepan MG-II (which sold today to a guy who appreciates vintage gear) my MG-944, and the Betsy. Everything sounded really good. Pretty much everything was listenable...which by are standards is pretty damn good! LOL

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Re: Year End CDApS Meeting
Reply #81 - 01/15/17 at 14:37:05
 
I started a thread over in DIY about our day long CDApS meeting yesterday and building the "Donnie baffles."
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Re: Year End CDApS Meeting
Reply #82 - 02/01/17 at 05:22:27
 
I'm going to revive this thread and ask some questions about Betsy.

I've been thinking a lot about these speakers the last few nights.  I find myself ready to move on from my Hawthorne days (which would still have their place for Betsy bass augmentation and the occasional rock or techno "concert"), and wondering if one were to give Betsy the consideration and effort I gave the Hawthornes, just how special could they be?

The most notable curiosity is the impression from CDApS about the high frequency response.  I believe the soundstage claims after reading multiple sources including those of Pal and Raven whom I trust, but I have doubts (like Steve) that they have insuffficient high end, especially when played back to back against the Tang Bands which I know are a bit hot.  So, what's the story?

Randy does have a model with a tweeter to improve extension, and I also believe with an on/off switch to play with.  Did I read that somewhere?  If it were your money would you go this route without hesitation?
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Re: Year End CDApS Meeting
Reply #83 - 02/01/17 at 05:26:37
 
By the way, I am super bummed that I can't join you anymore.  Loved going back to read this thread.  You really are both crazy with the diffusers Wink
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Re: Year End CDApS Meeting
Reply #84 - 02/01/17 at 15:37:55
 
Here are my thoughts on the Betsys.

I believe Steve has a point although I am not sure I see the same frequency response plot.  I dug out some old REW graphs and I actually had a roll off at the high end, but that was likely with Torii.  I tried to measure with Rachael last night (what we listened to at the last meeting) but could not get my DAC to play through it.  With El Capitan, I can't go straight USB and am using that SPDIF converter which El Capitan recognizes, but doesn't seem to want to produce sound through.

Anyway, after Steve's post I put in some Silverline monitors I have and had the same reaction.  Where's the high end?  After listening a while I think my ears adjusted and while still a little warm, the high end was fine.

Second data point is on the day that Raven and I built the OB baffles, I listened to the Betsy clones at his house and experienced the same huge soundstage but didn't come away with a "where's the high end opinion."

Now if I could get Raven Wink to loan me his Betsy drivers, I would mount them in one of my baffles with a Augie and listen to them for a few days. Then I could give you an opinion and maybe Eric could too.

I may end up buying some Betsys myself as I think I want to go OB in the cottage system. I thought as an inexpensive pair of OBs I would go with Betsys with a 15A for the bottom end.  After hearing the 15A and the Augies back to back, I think the Augies are worth the extra money, but just not in the budget right now.
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Re: Year End CDApS Meeting
Reply #85 - 02/01/17 at 16:22:14
 

Quote:
Now if I could get Raven Wink to loan me his Betsy drivers, I would mount them in one of my baffles with a Augie and listen to them for a few days. Then I could give you an opinion and maybe Eric could too.


All you had to do was ask, brother. I'm not even using them right now, they are set off to the side, and will be taken off my "baffles" so I can trim and paint the baffles and make them pretty. Currently the Blue Zu are in place, and I'm still not liking them. They are for sure going up for sale (P.S. Rob, that means I like the $125 pair of Betsy better than my $1000 pair of Zu Audio).

For the money, I can't find anything better...maybe there is something and I've just not stumbled across it...it's not like I'm actively looking...but these speakers do so much right. I'm still not convinced either way on the treble; but then, I like a really ultra high frequency because I swear it gives more and better spacial cues. I'll reevaluate and maybe take measurements as well, but later, after I get these baffles cleaned up and painted.

I've also got a lot going on personally right now, so I'm kind of in a flatspin and waiting for Goose to pull the ejector.

On a listeningroom/home theater note. My trusty Mitsubishi HC5500 gave up the ghost after 8 years and many thousands of hours of binge watching TV shows, movies, and movie nights with friends. So the money I was saving up to buy a new bandsaw got redirected to a $1200 Epson Home Cinema projector, and I'm building a friggen ginormous "acoustically transparent" projection screen...which will allow me to move my Klipsch Home Theater speakers behind the screen and out of the way of the MG944...and also prompting me to build an audio rack and probably move all my gear out from between the speakers, allow more space for my two channel setup to breath (and more diffusers LOL)


Not a great photo, it was really late and I've had several sleepless nights...current screen I built 8 years ago is a 2x4 frame topped with white, lightly textured countertop material, and the trim is literally window casing wrapped in Joanne fabrics black velvet. I cracked the thin melamine trying to move the screen myself several years ago - and I've always wanted an acoustically transparent screen.

The vertical Blue Tape lines is the width of the future screen. It will have to be floated off the wall 12"-13" for the Klipsch speakers to fit behind and the incoming projector moved back a few feet.



So, expect some changes in Raven's Haven Cinema and Audio Delights.  ;)

P.S. hopefully starting building diffusers for Axpona this weekend!!
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Re: Year End CDApS Meeting
Reply #86 - 02/01/17 at 16:29:31
 

Ceiling shot from between the speakers facing back.




Older photo when I was playing with the Betsy drivers in different locations. I hope to clean all this up and just have a giant screen, pair of MG944, and sound treatment all around.



Speaking of which, these ceiling diffusers and absorption tiles are going to be posted in the Classifieds....today probably.





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Re: Year End CDApS Meeting
Reply #87 - 02/01/17 at 16:56:57
 
Sounds good.  I'll ask to borrow them when I get a little breathing room.  Right now, I am kind of wrapped up with work and family.

The fact that you don't have any obvious issues should be a good sign Rob.  My only other thought is that I recall Randy saying they were not for head bangers and while I don't consider you one, you do like your progressive rock...
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Re: Year End CDApS Meeting
Reply #88 - 02/01/17 at 17:08:59
 
Wait, he likes Progressive Rock? Who Knew!  :P

Don't take too long coming to borrow these drivers - if I'm done building the baffles, they may just have to stay here.  :)
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Re: Year End CDApS Meeting
Reply #89 - 02/01/17 at 17:11:29
 
I understand the risks...

I might try to swing by this weekend.  I thought I could last weekend but the chain was jerked.
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Re: Year End CDApS Meeting
Reply #90 - 02/01/17 at 17:16:00
 
Cool LR & Pal. I enjoy following this Thread. Inspires me to get my Listening Room to sound even better.
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Re: Year End CDApS Meeting
Reply #91 - 02/01/17 at 17:30:33
 

We do hope to inspire!

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Re: Year End CDApS Meeting
Reply #92 - 02/01/17 at 22:43:51
 
Thanks for the input guys.  Next step is to talk to Randy.

Rob
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Bass: 4x Hawthorne Augies w/ 2 Rythmik amps
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Re: Year End CDApS Meeting
Reply #93 - 02/02/17 at 15:08:22
 
Hi ProggRob,

I've got some of Randy's open baffle speakers.  For me, if I play them as designed with the speakers essentially pointing at my knees, I find the highs to be lacking.  Everything sounds a bit muffled.  When I play them, I angle them back so the center of the driver points at my ears...this also improves the specificity of images within the sound stage.

I have heard Randy's speakers with the tweeter (and the on off switch) as well and when you switch the tweeter on, it does at a sense of airiness to the sound.

I've had a lot of fun playing with these speakers.  Their strength is that they really do throw a huge sound stage.  I do find that they are weak in the bass and I don't think even Randy would disagree with me in saying that if you are looking for reference sound, you will need a subwoofer.  No matter where I put mine, I feel that the bass is rolling off at 70-80hz.

For the money, these are a no brainer.  Good luck in your decision.
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Re: Year End CDApS Meeting
Reply #94 - 02/02/17 at 16:03:36
 

Agreed - add a sub with them. Randy had a nice OB sub in the mix during the last Decfest, and Steve said he prefers them with an OB sub.

I'm currently running a single 18" in a sealed box off a Crown amp with built in DSP (for the crossover). I tend to cross it way lower than I really need to, just because I like having the sub be completely non-directional and just filling in the deepest for a good foundation.
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Re: Year End CDApS Meeting
Reply #95 - 02/02/17 at 16:05:29
 
Thanks for weighing in seikosha.  How do you think they would work in my proposed setup where they would be above the Augie at ear level (without a tweeter)?

Rob, I have seen various configurations that Randy has built including floor to ceiling multi-driver monsters.  I am sure he could build you whatever fits your needs.
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Re: Year End CDApS Meeting
Reply #96 - 02/02/17 at 16:09:03
 
Quote:
Rob, I have seen various configurations that Randy has built including floor to ceiling multi-driver monsters.


Wow, I wish I could hear something like that!
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Re: Year End CDApS Meeting
Reply #97 - 02/02/17 at 17:53:30
 
Palomino,

My guess is that your implementation would be pretty good.  I'm far from an OB expert though....I've got much more experience with Single Driver designs in conventional cabinets.  I suspect that you might want to make sure you have plenty of baffle around the Betsy though, you might run into a suck out up into the midrange if you don't.  I bet Randy could give you some advice on this.

 Again, you are not going to get world class highs with the Betsy, and this is true with any single driver system I've heard, but the speaker makes up for it with midrange coherency, imaging and sound stage.

Keep us posted with your progress.
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Re: Year End CDApS Meeting
Reply #98 - 02/02/17 at 23:41:24
 
seikosha,

I heard Randy's Betsy's at Zenfest last fall.  Ordered a flatpack set from him shortly after that, because I figured I'd want to "customize" them a bit -  you know how as "philes" are - we just can't leave well enough alone..!!!
I added back bracing for the front baffle... and I did some experimentation with them while I was designing the brace.  I used a laser to figure out the angle to point them right at my head while seated in my normal listening chair and position.  Ended up being about a 10 degree tilt back... so I cut the bases and built the back brace to put the front baffle at a 10 degree tilt.  
My Betsy drivers were a little "flat" and muted sounding, especially in the highs, when new right out of the box.  But I would expect this for nearly any speaker, and this has always been my experience.  I do not have a ton of hours on my Betsy's yet, but I took them to our little local "CDAPs-like" meeting about a month ago, and we pounded on them pretty good for 5-6 hours straight.  They loosened up and started sounding significantly(noticeably) better after just an hour or so.  I think Randy says they need about 50 hours to really come on song.
I have listened to some of my reference music with brushes on snares, bells, chimes, etc. and all the music comes through.  I can relate a bit to some folks talking about adding tweeters to them and a sense of "air" they add.  I wish I better understood what was going on there acoustically.  I too have heard this phenomena, but listening to the Betsy's without tweeters, everything seems to be "present and accounted for".  If I was going to add a tweeter, it would be a ribbon or one of the multitude of AMT-like tweeters on the market these days.  Highpass pretty far up and keep it simple - one cap.  Might try it one of these days, but I'm enjoying them without high frequency augmentation right now.

I have to have "bass".  Every since I deployed the first subwoofer in my system decades ago, I just can't live without the foundation.  The electric bass guitar and stand-up bass need to "purr" in my room, just like they do when hearing them live.  I haven't heard a speaker yet, that didn't benefit from a sub (two or more, are even better - not for quantity but for even response in the room).  The Betsy Baffles are no exception.  I have used Velodyne digital drive(sealed box) subs as well as the Hawthorne Augie drivers in open baffle subs.  In my 2-channel rig, I prefer the Augie's with just about every speaker I have ever tried them with - including the Betsy's.  
I would even go so far as to say, a sub is a necessity with the Betsy Baffles.  Now... if you built a bigger baffle for the Betsy's... that would likely change things.  However, I have only heard the Betsy drivers in the "barrel baffles" that Randy makes, and they sound superb on the types of music Randy advocates them for.  With a push-pull amp like a Decware Torii (I have one), they will rock-n-roll pretty good when a sub is added in.  Not "head banger" music, but classic rock, like from the 70's type rock.
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Re: Year End CDApS Meeting
Reply #99 - 02/02/17 at 23:48:09
 
Palomino...

I can't see why a Betsy mounted higher with an Augie below it in the same baffle wouldn't work.... but there are advantages to putting the Augie in a separate baffle - so you can move it around in the room to where you get the best and most even bass response at your listening position, while putting the Betsy(any main speaker) in the position for best imaging - the two positions are almost always mutually exclusive.
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