The 8" TB is offset from the centerline 6". But on a 24"baffle it is 6" from the edge! Baffling isn't it, lol.

Thanks Dave.  Love seeing examples.

Does anyone know what the offset driver does?  What's the theory / effect.

Ok, this popped into my head - maybe not super helpful at this point since you have your baffle/frame cut out. But if I were able to start fresh with your setup, I'd do a Fibonacci golden ratio spiral to figure out the baffle size, and offset location of the speaker. Maybe it can still be done since your baffle simply bolts to your frame?




Edit to add - just for clarity - use the sequence to figure out the proper rectangular size of your baffle, and the start point of the spiral would be the center point of your driver.

Or could could cut out a giant snail shell spiral and mount it to your frame if you want.  I could absolutely see me doing that.  :D

I'm still considering a tweeter for my Betsy speakers by the way. I just really don't know what to choose, or what I should be looking at. I've even considered a budget Air Motion Tweeter from Parts Express. They have some that go up to 44k, but they aren't terribly efficient.

But then again, some high-frequency is better than none?

I've been doing this thing called work...in order to pay this pile of other things called bills, so I have a house to store my audio equipment in.

As for the Betsys - there is only so much high-frequency we can get out of them. Steve mentioned his favorite of Randy's OBs were the ones with tweeters, so I have feeling I'm on the right track.

Also, while you and I are messing with diffusers, Steve is designing and building giant wind chimes...like, 4' long windchimes tuned to ancient musical scales. I was quite in awe.

Holy crap! My design is around 36% of L.R.'s spiral.

I would be happy if we got to the full on Acoustic Fields level of room treatment. That's really what I'm hoping to achieve.

I thought of Donnie's speakers and how close they already are to my golden ratio idea....may have even inspired it to pop into my head.

You guys kill me.

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Yeah? The Acoustic Fields video does that and not me pointing to your ceiling and suggesting it during our last session?

If we had more members in our club, I'd demote you!  ;)


I had a guy stop by to pick up some of the recording studio bits I put up for sale (stuff I inherited from my Dad). Turns out he's a Jazz musician (keyboards/piano), and was interested in acoustics...I'm like...allow me to show you my mad-scientist bachelor pad home theater audiophile livingroom...

Oddly enough, he asked me to que up a track from the Rockstar Movie Soundtrack...which was even odder that I didn't have it since I collect movie soundtracks!  Instead I played  Kind of Blue - Blue In Green and only seconds into it he was gone...head down, eyes closed, still as a statue. He perked up once or twice when something caught his attention. At the end he was really excited about hearing stuff he'd never heard before...said it sounded like he was right there listening to them at some small venue. I didn't even have it that loud, I could have pushed the ZMA better.

We were up till almost 2am talking acoustics, and he invited me to an album release event/concert on the 23rd.

I know you are, but what am I!



Quit thinking about it and go do it.

If I don't go out tonight, I think I'll be hitting the garage to make big pieces of material into little ones, then glue them into something acoustic.

Palo, No I never have changed sides on my speakers. I have a long weekend ahead of me, so I will give it a try. The only issue I see is that my speaker cables might come up a little short on the right side. No hill for a climber.

Yeah, I could see that helping. That's how I have it on my side walls, and what I do on my front wall when I block the screen...but I have too much stuff up front still to setup a dedicated wall like yours. Ugh, getting jealous.

Also, as I get more of my deep wood diffusers built, I'll possibly be parting with some of my foam. I will try it first in the spare bedroom (which isn't anywhere near ready to play music yet), but then get moved out as the MDF rolls in! LOL

Since I'm not really critical listening right now, I could probably spot you a pair of invert-fractals to add to your ceiling. Especially since I found a pair of those other ones (PKI was it?) still in the box.

Wow.  I am speechless.  I have no speech.

Palo,
Allright, I swapped my speakers side for side.
So far I'm not impressed, it sounds a little more congested, not as open. I'm not talking a lot, maybe 2-3 percent, if that.
But I have to put a big disclaimer on my findings, I ran out of speaker cable on my right side and had to pull that speaker to the left by a good 12"-16". I will need to move my amp off of it's maple stand and put it on my desk so I can shift to the right some more. That sounds like a project for the morning, if we have electricity, there is a big ice storm moving this way!
I will report back!
PS,
I'm sitting between the speakers typing this and the effect is kind of freaky. "Shine On You Crazy Diamond" is kind of swirling around my head right now, peace, love, dope!

Steve,
You are correct about our perceptions. Palo's and especially my open baffles, sound to my ears "sparkly". Definitely tipped towards the high end.
L.R.'s Betsies sounded really good to my tired ears, and truthfully were probably the most neutral sounding speakers that we listened to.
More than likely, what we perceived as lack of top end could have been colored by our listening to "hot" speakers just before them.

Steve, thanks for the insight. Our perception might have been tipped.

As Tom mentioned, we glued up and cut some double thick baffles like yours, but square. More on that in another thread, I don't want to steal Palomino's thunder.

But while he was over, we listened (briefly) to my Magnepan MG-II (which sold today to a guy who appreciates vintage gear) my MG-944, and the Betsy. Everything sounded really good. Pretty much everything was listenable...which by are standards is pretty damn good! LOL

I'm going to revive this thread and ask some questions about Betsy.

I've been thinking a lot about these speakers the last few nights.  I find myself ready to move on from my Hawthorne days (which would still have their place for Betsy bass augmentation and the occasional rock or techno "concert"), and wondering if one were to give Betsy the consideration and effort I gave the Hawthornes, just how special could they be?

The most notable curiosity is the impression from CDApS about the high frequency response.  I believe the soundstage claims after reading multiple sources including those of Pal and Raven whom I trust, but I have doubts (like Steve) that they have insuffficient high end, especially when played back to back against the Tang Bands which I know are a bit hot.  So, what's the story?

Randy does have a model with a tweeter to improve extension, and I also believe with an on/off switch to play with.  Did I read that somewhere?  If it were your money would you go this route without hesitation?

Here are my thoughts on the Betsys.

I believe Steve has a point although I am not sure I see the same frequency response plot.  I dug out some old REW graphs and I actually had a roll off at the high end, but that was likely with Torii.  I tried to measure with Rachael last night (what we listened to at the last meeting) but could not get my DAC to play through it.  With El Capitan, I can't go straight USB and am using that SPDIF converter which El Capitan recognizes, but doesn't seem to want to produce sound through.

Anyway, after Steve's post I put in some Silverline monitors I have and had the same reaction.  Where's the high end?  After listening a while I think my ears adjusted and while still a little warm, the high end was fine.

Second data point is on the day that Raven and I built the OB baffles, I listened to the Betsy clones at his house and experienced the same huge soundstage but didn't come away with a "where's the high end opinion."

Now if I could get Raven to loan me his Betsy drivers, I would mount them in one of my baffles with a Augie and listen to them for a few days. Then I could give you an opinion and maybe Eric could too.

I may end up buying some Betsys myself as I think I want to go OB in the cottage system. I thought as an inexpensive pair of OBs I would go with Betsys with a 15A for the bottom end.  After hearing the 15A and the Augies back to back, I think the Augies are worth the extra money, but just not in the budget right now.

Ceiling shot from between the speakers facing back.




Older photo when I was playing with the Betsy drivers in different locations. I hope to clean all this up and just have a giant screen, pair of MG944, and sound treatment all around.



Speaking of which, these ceiling diffusers and absorption tiles are going to be posted in the Classifieds....today probably.

Wait, he likes Progressive Rock? Who Knew!  :P

Don't take too long coming to borrow these drivers - if I'm done building the baffles, they may just have to stay here.  :)

Cool LR & Pal. I enjoy following this Thread. Inspires me to get my Listening Room to sound even better.

Thanks for the input guys.  Next step is to talk to Randy.

Rob

Agreed - add a sub with them. Randy had a nice OB sub in the mix during the last Decfest, and Steve said he prefers them with an OB sub.

I'm currently running a single 18" in a sealed box off a Crown amp with built in DSP (for the crossover). I tend to cross it way lower than I really need to, just because I like having the sub be completely non-directional and just filling in the deepest for a good foundation.

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Wow, I wish I could hear something like that!

seikosha,

I heard Randy's Betsy's at Zenfest last fall.  Ordered a flatpack set from him shortly after that, because I figured I'd want to "customize" them a bit -  you know how as "philes" are - we just can't leave well enough alone..!!!
I added back bracing for the front baffle... and I did some experimentation with them while I was designing the brace.  I used a laser to figure out the angle to point them right at my head while seated in my normal listening chair and position.  Ended up being about a 10 degree tilt back... so I cut the bases and built the back brace to put the front baffle at a 10 degree tilt.  
My Betsy drivers were a little "flat" and muted sounding, especially in the highs, when new right out of the box.  But I would expect this for nearly any speaker, and this has always been my experience.  I do not have a ton of hours on my Betsy's yet, but I took them to our little local "CDAPs-like" meeting about a month ago, and we pounded on them pretty good for 5-6 hours straight.  They loosened up and started sounding significantly(noticeably) better after just an hour or so.  I think Randy says they need about 50 hours to really come on song.
I have listened to some of my reference music with brushes on snares, bells, chimes, etc. and all the music comes through.  I can relate a bit to some folks talking about adding tweeters to them and a sense of "air" they add.  I wish I better understood what was going on there acoustically.  I too have heard this phenomena, but listening to the Betsy's without tweeters, everything seems to be "present and accounted for".  If I was going to add a tweeter, it would be a ribbon or one of the multitude of AMT-like tweeters on the market these days.  Highpass pretty far up and keep it simple - one cap.  Might try it one of these days, but I'm enjoying them without high frequency augmentation right now.

I have to have "bass".  Every since I deployed the first subwoofer in my system decades ago, I just can't live without the foundation.  The electric bass guitar and stand-up bass need to "purr" in my room, just like they do when hearing them live.  I haven't heard a speaker yet, that didn't benefit from a sub (two or more, are even better - not for quantity but for even response in the room).  The Betsy Baffles are no exception.  I have used Velodyne digital drive(sealed box) subs as well as the Hawthorne Augie drivers in open baffle subs.  In my 2-channel rig, I prefer the Augie's with just about every speaker I have ever tried them with - including the Betsy's.  
I would even go so far as to say, a sub is a necessity with the Betsy Baffles.  Now... if you built a bigger baffle for the Betsy's... that would likely change things.  However, I have only heard the Betsy drivers in the "barrel baffles" that Randy makes, and they sound superb on the types of music Randy advocates them for.  With a push-pull amp like a Decware Torii (I have one), they will rock-n-roll pretty good when a sub is added in.  Not "head banger" music, but classic rock, like from the 70's type rock.