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Steve's BIG BETSY Project (Read 151345 times)
4krow
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Re: Steve's BIG BETSY Project
Reply #1350 - 02/03/20 at 22:46:43
 
Man, I second that thought. When I made the DNA2 cabinets, my measurements were incorrect for the mounting rabbit, and I ended up with a half inch mounting surface for the screws. Nope, doesn't work. Fortunately, I figured out a mounting ring for various drivers and it is seated in with a temporary type of sealant. Holds just fine, and I can either reuse the ring, or make a different one for each driver.
The only benefit that I can see is that the driver has plenty of breathing room around the edge.
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dennis66
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Re: Steve's BIG BETSY Project
Reply #1351 - 02/04/20 at 07:36:28
 
I checked the drawing on Lii Audios web site, and the opening diameter of the F-15 is 35,5 cm. I don't know where the dimension 33 cm was found, but I think it will be solved when I can measure my pair.
My drawing is now updated.
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Tooppy
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Re: Steve's BIG BETSY Project
Reply #1352 - 02/04/20 at 15:57:50
 
My mistake it was 33.5
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Re: Steve's BIG BETSY Project
Reply #1353 - 02/04/20 at 16:01:06
 
.....and 33 here ....I knew I saw it somewhere
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F15-small-OB-design.png
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Palomino
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Re: Steve's BIG BETSY Project
Reply #1354 - 02/06/20 at 02:36:47
 
Hey for you guys who used Howard F&W, how many coats do you put on?
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JBzen
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Re: Steve's BIG BETSY Project
Reply #1355 - 02/09/20 at 15:05:56
 
Good grief, Lii's shipments/production is at a standstill because of the Coronavirus. China's government is enforcing this in some territories. Check Lii's site for a detailed account of the situation. Hopefully this virus will abate soon!
A shipment was sent to USA before the shutdown.
I ordered F15's 1/31 and still did not get a tracking number. Hopefully mine are on that last shipment. If not, it will probably be March before receiving the F15s being it is at backorder status now. There was 3 in stock when I ordered.
Prioritization will have to be in order...April I will be sifting into travel mode and halt this hobby until next winter. I picked up a Heathkit SA-2 locally that was upgraded to hold me over. Nice amp and a noticeable midrange improvement over the AKSA.

John
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Alex
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Re: Steve's BIG BETSY Project
Reply #1356 - 02/09/20 at 15:11:49
 
Yeah, I’m going to be ordering their new 10”(they haven’t given it a name yet)
I have a few questions which I asked about these drivers but haven’t received a response.
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Randy in Caintuck
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Re: Steve's BIG BETSY Project
Reply #1357 - 02/09/20 at 15:39:02
 


Yep ..... the virus situation in China is a real mess .....

I have been corresponding with Leo at Lii Audio and he said that they are not permitted to enter their factory.
It has been several days since I have heard from him.
My last email included a couple of questions and he is normally very prompt with a reply.

Hopefully, everyone at Lii Audio and their families are well and safe.

Randy

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lobo
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Re: Steve's BIG BETSY Project
Reply #1358 - 02/10/20 at 00:21:17
 
They have been hiding out at home,hoping to return to factory around Feb.10 .
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Randy in Caintuck
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Re: Steve's BIG BETSY Project
Reply #1359 - 02/10/20 at 18:13:12
 


I just checked the Lii Audio website .....
It looks like the return to the factory date has been moved back to February 17th .....

Hoping for the best .....
Randy

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Steve Deckert
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Re: Steve's BIG BETSY Project
Reply #1360 - 02/11/20 at 00:49:45
 

A couple weeks back I posted some pictures of the final assembly on a pair of solid hard maple ZF15M's...









They were sold hours after I originally posted it.  However, the buyer has disappeared so they are up for sale again, same deal which was:

This particular pair I will be offering for sale as demos at a reduced price as soon as I have the pictures and videos that I need. This means you won't have to wait 6 months to get a pair and they can be picked up or shipped right away! ; )

Steve's little gift to the impatient!  The price will be $3250 for the pair plus shipping.  That's nearly $500 off a brand new pair.



The shipping on these pair would be by UPS ground, and if I remember right came in around $400 to California which is about the farthest distance from here.

Email me if you want them, they can ship within a weeks time of cleared payment.

Steve@zenamps.com
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Re: Steve's BIG BETSY Project
Reply #1361 - 02/11/20 at 01:28:16
 
Steve, Those look great. Since you still have them, are they broken in? Any Chance of recording comparisons with the Cherry?
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dennis66
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Re: Steve's BIG BETSY Project
Reply #1362 - 02/11/20 at 10:21:39
 
Do you recommend mounting the F-15 from behind or to the front side?
I see Steve are mounting them from behind on the Big Betsy, but Caintuck are screwing them to the front side of the baffle.

What will the differences be?

My baffle will be aprox. 3 cm thick
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Palomino
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Re: Steve's BIG BETSY Project
Reply #1363 - 02/11/20 at 12:11:47
 
I think technically, mounting from behind can make the sound somewhat dependent on the depth and shape of the round over but audibly I’m not sure how much difference you’d be able to hear.  

My big Betsy’s are flush mounted on the front and the crystal 10s are rear mounted with a 1/2” round over.  Both sound good.  I don’t detect any tunneling of the sound on the crystal 10s.

I have also heard Randy’s surface mounted Betsy’s and couldn’t detect any issues.

For me, I like the rear mount from an esthetics point of view.
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JBzen
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Re: Steve's BIG BETSY Project
Reply #1364 - 02/11/20 at 16:02:35
 
Quote:
Do you recommend mounting the F-15 from behind or to the front side?


dennis66,

A 3cm baffle would create minimum Helmholtz resonator effects as long as the driver is flush mounted in the front and the back is routed with a radius. Or vise versa. The drivers frame creates a resonator looking close at the back of the driver.  
In my opinion, it would be best to mount the driver from the back at a depth of the frame resonator and round the front to the point of front driver contact with the baffle. This can't be done on a 3cm baffle, I believe from looking at the pictures. Maybe a 5cm baffle would give enough thickness after cutting to give room for screws.
Either case, it looks like there are other issue with these fine F15 drivers that can be tweaked as pointed out by Steve earlier(ie motor cover resonance, frame reflections).
We all are simply splitting hairs for a tailored outcome Smiley

John
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JBzen
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Re: Steve's BIG BETSY Project
Reply #1365 - 02/11/20 at 16:06:14
 
Quote:
Since you still have them, are they broken in? Any Chance of recording comparisons with the Cherry?


Ditto!
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Steve Deckert
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Re: Steve's BIG BETSY Project
Reply #1366 - 02/16/20 at 02:52:16
 
The maple are not burned-in.  Instead I am trying to get a few hours on the most recent cherry pair before they go to the customer!  



Steve

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Re: Steve's BIG BETSY Project
Reply #1367 - 02/16/20 at 03:53:15
 

So this morning I came to work early and walked in on this...



I busted them red-handed participating in what I can only call a "Betsy Bash!"  ::)  They even had a pair of mimes at the party!

Steve

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JBzen
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Re: Steve's BIG BETSY Project
Reply #1368 - 02/16/20 at 06:44:21
 
Coronavirus casualties?   Cry
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Geno
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Re: Steve's BIG BETSY Project
Reply #1369 - 02/16/20 at 14:39:04
 
I’m glad to see the original Betsy’s in the mix. She can hold her own...
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Re: Steve's BIG BETSY Project
Reply #1370 - 02/16/20 at 18:36:46
 
Jeez Steve, when you go in for a speaker design, you go ALL in!   Grin
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Acousticzen
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Re: Steve's BIG BETSY Project
Reply #1371 - 02/17/20 at 03:14:13
 
New here. After reading all the posts about the big Betsy I decided to jump in!
My F15 speakers arrived Saturday. I have them burning in now.  Looking forward to getting my baffles started!  8/4 Curly Cherry should get here tomorrow. I also have one of Steve's Zen Triode amps on order. Lots of great information here. Thanks.
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Re: Steve's BIG BETSY Project
Reply #1372 - 02/17/20 at 09:26:31
 
Hello Acousticzen,

Good to see that there is some movement with the Lii situation. Still waiting to see a tracking number on my F-15 order.

Enjoy!

John
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JBzen
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Re: Steve's BIG BETSY Project
Reply #1373 - 02/17/20 at 09:34:35
 
Good news!

Lii is now showing 18 F15s in stock on their site.  They must be back to work!

Found this on e-bay this morning:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Pair-of-Lii-Audio-Special-15-Full-Range-Drivers-Hifi-Sp...

Wondering if a new word might be added to the dictionary soon...caperialism.

Cheers!

John
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Acousticzen
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Re: Steve's BIG BETSY Project
Reply #1374 - 02/17/20 at 15:40:10
 
Hi John,

I ordered my f-15s on January 23rd. Given everything that's going on I'm really surprised I got them this quickly. I received an email last week to let me know that a shipment had arrived in the US and they would be distributing orders.
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Re: Steve's BIG BETSY Project
Reply #1375 - 02/17/20 at 15:53:39
 
Yeah, I just got a e-mail response from Leo of Lii Audio. He said that they are looking at a green light by the 26th. He also stated the back order will be shipped directly from China via DHL or Fedx taking less than a week to arrive. Fingers crossed.
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Re: Steve's BIG BETSY Project
Reply #1376 - 02/27/20 at 13:52:55
 
Good news! Leo from Lii stated they are back to work and in process of shipping backorders. However my window is starting to close for this session of audio indulgence. I had to cancel being my order has not shipped. Placing the horse ahead of the cart, I should have time enough to build a center channel speaker for the HT before spring arrives.

Lii audio is top notch and I hope to do business with them in the future.

John
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Steve Deckert
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Re: Steve's BIG BETSY Project
Reply #1377 - 02/28/20 at 00:05:00
 

I have added the official plans for the ZF15M to the site:  https://www.decware.com/newsite/ZMS2.html



Enjoy!

Steve
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Re: Steve's BIG BETSY Project
Reply #1378 - 03/07/20 at 04:30:14
 

BIG BETSY UPDATE:

Handicapped by the Zen Triode 25th Anniversary amplifier's insane imaging ability I just had a completely unexpected experience this evening with the ZF15L baffles!  Yes it's true, the amplifier images so well, I was unable to find the magic spot in the room for the speakers... until tonight.



I'm pretty stoked!  Boy, you know when you find yourself fidgeting with speaker placement, it's a sign that something could be better... something needs to change and that's where I was tonight.

I have been listening to the baffles almost exclusively on the SE84UFO25 amplifier and have tried God knows how many placements in the room trying to find that magic spot, if there is one and never did.

Last weekend I had an afternoon demo where we ran through many of the speakers here including the ZF15L Zen Master Series baffles.  The amplifier used was a nice sounding and well built 300B 8 watts per channel.  Sadly on the 100dB speakers it hummed.  This led to going with more power and less hum.  We tried a Torii MK IV and it had a tendency to get a little boomy with these speakers, so we changed to the TORII JR., which is ultra linear and had a tighter bass with these baffles.  

The amplifier has been used all week since that demo so tonight finally getting a chance to listen I went into the room and that's where the struggle began...

Couldn't get same brain-lock imaging I was used to, and the top end was a bit harder than I like... so the fidgeting began.  Since the highs were bothering me, I ended up toeing the speakers out a bit from the point blank angle they typically are at.  This fixed the highs and was better focused on the front wall as well.  With that solved, the only problem left was the fact that I liked the imaging and overall sound better when I stand up.

To make the speakers sound the same standing or setting I tilted them back 7-1/2 degrees and the sound is nearly identical standing or setting.  As soon as I did this, the brain-lock imaging was back, and better then it has ever been.  It will be interesting to see what happens when I put the Anniversary amp back without changing the speaker placement but definitely not tonight!

So as I've said many times, handicaps are great tools for improving your audio system.  This was a classic example with a twist, as for the first time ever the handicap was that something was too good rather than not good enough.

I now exactly where the best spot in the room for these speakers is, and it is only here.  What a stark contrast to my opinion prior to tonight!

An interesting Big Betsy development I thought I would share.  Distance to the wall is btw about 5 feet.  Anything less in my room resulted in diminished sense of space.

In the following cell phone recording you can get a nice sense of what I'm hearing moving through the space, setting down and standing up...



https://decware.wistia.com/medias/90mdy73zdr

Steve



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Re: Steve's BIG BETSY Project
Reply #1379 - 03/07/20 at 14:21:36
 
Very informative Steve! I am still working on my speakers finish and picked up more 8/4 cherry to build the base to match yours as you suggested.  Given this new listening revelation with 7-1/2 degree tilt what do you think about altering my base to hold my baffles at this angle? Hoping to get mine home for a first listen setting on the feet I fashioned. Just a thought but if "built to tilt" maybe the front facing sections of the base aren't necessary unless you think they contribute to the sound in a positive way.

My build is the medium size Betsy.

Russ
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Re: Steve's BIG BETSY Project
Reply #1380 - 03/08/20 at 21:27:05
 
Hey Steve (and anyone else who wants to chime in),

This new finding regarding the Big Betsys is interesting to me, as I'm planning to build some open baffles of various sizes later this year. My main question is why the bigger baffles benefit from the tilt more than (or rather than) the smaller baffles. Is it just the sheer size of the soundstage that the bigger baffle produces? Or is there something else at play? It seems that the effect of tilting the baffle back is biasing the sound energy from the front of the baffle toward the ceiling, and from the back of the baffle toward the floor, causing a delay in the time that the reflected sound reaches the listening position. So I'm wondering why that effect wouldn't be the same for smaller baffles. Or maybe it is the same, but just less noticeable? Any thoughts would be appreciated, as always.

Randy
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Re: Steve's BIG BETSY Project
Reply #1381 - 03/09/20 at 03:57:01
 
Hi Randy. Like you, I have not been able to rest the idea of getting a bigger baffle for the original Betsy. Since I put the smaller Betsy’s back in the lineup, they sound too good to even think about taking them back out.  So, I’m having larger baffles made, and doubling the thickness to 1 1/2”.  Can’t wait to get the Alnico Betsy’s placed in them. Should be very interesting.

Even though I’ve read in the past about tilting the speakers back, I had never tried it. Why is it that when Steve does something, it suddenly seems so right? Wink  Of course, after I saw his video, I had to try it. I put a 2” x 11” (1” thick) piece of wood running the width under the front of each. I’ll be damned if it doesn’t sound a little better!
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Re: Steve's BIG BETSY Project
Reply #1382 - 03/09/20 at 06:47:51
 
Hey Geno, I agree with you - Steve's a trendsetter, for sure. It's another experiment that I'm looking forward to when I get my audio system back together. I'm just trying to understand the theory behind it before I start. Or maybe it will just be one of those mysteries of the cosmos that nobody really understands, but somehow works. I could live with that.

Randy
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Re: Steve's BIG BETSY Project
Reply #1383 - 03/10/20 at 02:29:36
 
A) For the record, tilting the speakers back was not the solution.  It was changing the toe-in AND tilting the speakers back.  Can't have one without the other.

B) This provided the best result in my room on the largest baffles.  I have no idea if other rooms would have the same result... my room practically has no ceiling.

C) I haven't tried it on the ZF15M's and have no idea if the same result can be expected or not... that driver is much closer to the floor.

Quote:
My main question is why the bigger baffles benefit from the tilt more than (or rather than) the smaller baffles. Is it just the sheer size of the soundstage that the bigger baffle produces? Or is there something else at play? It seems that the effect of tilting the baffle back is biasing the sound energy from the front of the baffle toward the ceiling, and from the back of the baffle toward the floor, causing a delay in the time that the reflected sound reaches the listening position. So I'm wondering why that effect wouldn't be the same for smaller baffles.


I think it is fair to say that on a general level the effect would be similar regardless of the baffle size, however the diameter of the driver and distance to the floor will determine where on the floor the bounce occurs.  

I have always found that to me most speakers sound better standing up than setting down... I'm not that tall at 5-9, and I suspect that has something to do with it.  The floor bounce between the speaker and the listener can cause a loss in a dimensionality, so I speculate that tilting the speakers back probably moved the bounce out of my orbit so that it happens outside the sacred triangle on the floor between me and the two speakers.  

The reason I think they sound better is in fact the dimensionality.  I do not hear a change in frequency balance, dynamics, or any other aspect except on occasion more highs when setting depending on the speaker so it's just that space between the instruments that I like.  Space that is hard to realize when all the instruments are stacked one behind another you tend to only see and hear the one in front when they all play at the same time.  When you have an elevated perspective on the performance you can see about 6 feet of floor behind each musician and everyone has their own space, there is no overlap... every musician has his/her own sound and space.   I have memories during the pre-Decware years of my listening chair on top of a 12 inch platform, diffusers on all four walls, the floor and ceiling, carpet and absorbers where needed...four bass traps and all this was a fairly success effort to get that perspective/dimensionality.

The ZF15L tiled and toed like this is the first time I have gotten the elevated perspective that remains unchanged when you set down.  I really has been quite a treat because I didn't think it was possible with conventional means.  



Steve


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Re: Steve's BIG BETSY Project
Reply #1384 - 03/10/20 at 06:50:08
 
Thanks for the insight, Steve. I think that I'll make some simple bases like Randy's, only I'll have one edge at 90 degrees, and the opposite edge cut back by 7&1/2 degrees. That way I can quickly switch from straight up to tilted back just by spinning each base around, and evaluate the sound from each before making my final bases. Cool experiments abound - thanks for the inspiration.

Randy
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Re: Steve's BIG BETSY Project
Reply #1385 - 03/10/20 at 12:22:35
 
Compelled to chime in here, all speakers exhibit shout in frequencies related directly to the speaker's dimension. Think of it as cupping one's hands around the mouth trying to get someone's attention in a crowded  room/stadium at a distance. F15's control this somewhat with the red core mounted plug. Regardless there is still some elevated response in these areas of frequency related to wavelength.
Offsetting the axis of the ZF15L as related to the listening position will decrease the shout as well as efficiency(loudness) thereby changing the whole performance for better or worse.

Randy, if your description of building a testing baffle, through my vision, in form of a winged metal table napkin holder with one leaf set a 90 degrees as related to the table surface and the other bent at 82 and 1/2 degrees toward the other leaf with two F15 drives mounted in the leafs is correct, I think the performance of the intended design would seriously be effected and skew your intentions as related to the discussion here. Then again with one of those leaf mounted F15s acting passive it my bring on a whole new great sounding design. Hmmmm! Got to love this hobby!

IMO it be much easier and better just to place a wedged block of wood under the base as Steve did in a properly built baffle.

HTH

John
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Re: Steve's BIG BETSY Project
Reply #1386 - 03/10/20 at 22:18:00
 
JB,

Sorry I wasn't clear. What I'm planning to do is make two separate bases, each with a 90-degree edge opposite an 82 & 1/2-degree edge. I will mount the baffles to the 90-degree edge to evaluate the sound that way, then decouple the baffles from the bases, spin the bases around, mount the baffles to the 82 & 1/2 edge, evaluate the sound that way, and then choose the orientation that I prefer before making my permanent bases. I'm just trying to do my evaluation as efficiently as possible, without making 4 separate bases. I hadn't considered placing two baffles on the same base at the same time. That would be wild, but I'll have to leave that experiment up to somebody else.

Randy

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Re: Steve's BIG BETSY Project
Reply #1387 - 03/11/20 at 07:30:42
 
I see now Randy! Sometimes my imagination gets carried away. I think the "just by spinning" got me wandering.

Enjoy

John
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Re: Steve's BIG BETSY Project
Reply #1388 - 03/12/20 at 05:46:48
 
JB,

I went back and reread what I had written, and I can easily see how it was misinterpreted. My father, a former aerospace technical writer, would be appalled by my lack of clarity. So, sorry JB, sorry Decwarians, sorry dad!

Randy
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Re: Steve's BIG BETSY Project
Reply #1389 - 03/12/20 at 15:45:19
 
No worries Randy! This forum is one of the few that have mutual respect between members. Good bunch!

Anyhow, I do like the F-15 driver and wish my room was big enough to utilize it. The Chariot is just about 2000 cu/ft so on the small side of medium. The F-15 was on order but the China shut down delayed shipping to the point that my time was running out to build some baffles this year. The additional time and further research prompted a cancellation of the order. I am currently looking at their 10" drivers to replace the Jordan drivers if Steve's ZKIT1 is short of making the inefficient 5.5" sing.

Room size/shape does matter and should be considered heavily when building/buying speakers. The Acoustic Handbook is a great read for conditioning one's self with the mechanics of sound from creation to our body's interpretation and everything else in between.

John
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Re: Steve's BIG BETSY Project
Reply #1390 - 03/13/20 at 02:23:04
 
John,

I agree. I am pretty happy to have found this company/forum/group of audio innovators. It's changed the way I look at audio for the (WAY) better.

And thanks for the tip on the Acoustic Handbook. I'll check it out.

Randy
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Re: Steve's BIG BETSY Project
Reply #1391 - 03/14/20 at 14:14:44
 
I've been pondering these designs and came up with a question.
What if these baffles were somewhat curved? Lens shaped is the best description I can come up with.
When cutting the vertical boards make them maybe 2" wide and cut the edges at a 1/2 degree or so. When you glue them up there would be a short segmented curve.
Now as I think about this, maybe even have the speaker be convex facing you instead of concave??
I really should stop drinking Diet Dr. Pepper for breakfast.
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Re: Steve's BIG BETSY Project
Reply #1392 - 03/14/20 at 16:46:08
 
Donnie, I’m not sure how that would effect the sound, but they sure would have a cool look! I think you should go ahead and make some Cool
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Re: Steve's BIG BETSY Project
Reply #1393 - 03/14/20 at 18:09:24
 
That's funny, I had a dream last night about convex baffles!  Not sure which way the speaker faced though.
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Re: Steve's BIG BETSY Project
Reply #1394 - 03/14/20 at 21:09:42
 
Hey Donnie,

Cool idea, but you'd have to recess the driver a little deeper into the baffle to account for the curved surface. Doable though, I think, and you're just the guy for the job.  

Randy

P.S. Don't forget to take pictures.
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Re: Steve's BIG BETSY Project
Reply #1395 - 03/14/20 at 22:50:45
 
OK, the Infinity IRS V speakers are curved kind of like I am talking about. Something about something at 100 HZ back waves or the like.
Maybe the face stays flat and then curves out after the outside of the driver.
But the math on say a 1/2 degree for 2 inches is around .017" so the counterbore wouldn't bee too bad..... Oh yeah but at 4 inches it turns to 1 degree that doubles the number and so on and so on..
Stupid math always shoots down my plans, or does it??

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Re: Steve's BIG BETSY Project
Reply #1396 - 03/14/20 at 23:23:42
 
Go for it, Donnie!  Do the math on how much wider than the speaker to prevent the backwave coming round front. Make it concave and you have a shallow big mouth horn!!
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Re: Steve's BIG BETSY Project
Reply #1397 - 03/15/20 at 10:02:31
 
If the vertical slats with the radius cut are convex as you describe and the horizontal top and bottom edges squared as designed, the baffle would take on some refined character!

Other than a slight amplitude drop in size dependent frequency (on the Z15L there would be a positive advantage to concave the radius edges and convex top horizontal edge) and widening of side reflections there would not be much change in speaker performance as long as the overall dimensions stayed the same.

Donnie have a double DP and give it a whirl Shocked

John
 
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Re: Steve's BIG BETSY Project
Reply #1398 - 03/16/20 at 04:52:14
 
Hey Donnie,

Here's another, hopefully simpler, idea: mount the driver in a flat panel, just big enough to hold it securely (16" square for the Li F15?), and then surround the flat panel with your concave or convex baffle, with a cutout for the flat panel. If you made the base symmetrical, and secure enough, and made the flat panel removable, you could mount the panel and driver either on the concave side, or on the convex side. (But not both at the same time, JB. HA!). At least that would get you through the experimental stage with a minimum of wasted effort/material.

Randy

P.S. Also, you could try different edge treatments for the flat panel - beveled, radiused. It could also be possible that I need to START drinking Dr. Pepper for breakfast.
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Re: Steve's BIG BETSY Project
Reply #1399 - 03/25/20 at 19:19:57
 
Once I received my F15, I played them on the floor naked, no board, so they were aiming slightly up.
Since then they have few hundred hours and I probably like them as much that way  than fixed in an ob.
Ok my ob aren't optimal and they might never be as I am building Karlson enclosures for these f15 at the moment which may end up as a complete crap, will see.
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