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Steve's BIG BETSY Project (Read 144700 times)
HockessinKid
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Re: Steve's BIG BETSY Project
Reply #1450 - 04/15/20 at 13:27:36
 
After some additional experimentation with tilt and toe in I've settled in on using a double stack of the Gingko Arch 1's (~3" rise) on the front and toe in that' has drivers pointed about 12" outside my shoulders in my listening position which is 11' from my Caintuck Lii Audio 15 baffles.

This arrangement gives me a good balance between soundstage width & depth. Keep in mind my rear wall & 1st reflection point are covered with diffuser panels.

HK
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Nottingham Interspace TT w/ Audio Technica AT-OC9XML cart + Modwright PH 9.0XT phono OR Modwright modded Cambridge CNX V2 > CSP3-25th Ann. preamp > ZMA-25th Ann. amp > PI Audio UberBUSS > Caintuck Audio Lii15 Magnum speakers > Snake River Audio & ZenWave cables
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Palomino
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Re: Steve's BIG BETSY Project
Reply #1451 - 04/15/20 at 13:54:41
 
I’m also running 7.5 degrees and shoulder pointing toe in. I may prefer a little more toe in but that’s where it’s set for now.
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i7 Mac Mini with LPSU/SSD running Audirvana 3.5, Uptone Audio Regen on LPSU, Mytek Brooklyn DAC+, Ven Haus DIY Silver ICs, 25th Ann. Zen, PS Audio P5 Power Supply, PS Audio Power Cords, GR Research Speaker Wire, DIY Big Betsy and Crystal 10 Open Baffle Speakers
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Tooppy
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Re: Steve's BIG BETSY Project
Reply #1452 - 04/16/20 at 21:26:28
 
Just finish my Karlsonator for these F15, first listening.....bye bye OB....it is just what I thought, big boxes give a much better approach, it really fill up the room at low level with plenty of details.
And with the K, placement is so much easier.
When I say "finish" not really, I have plenty more to do but done enough to try if it was worth carrying on and it is.
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IFI Streamer - RME_ADI2_DAC_FS - SE84_UFO-2,1 - LII_F15 in Karlsonator DIY - Decware interconnect - DIY speaker cable - Thorens TD166MKII_Grace G707+A&R p77+Schiit Mani - FirstWatt F5 - Klipsch KG3 - Rogers LS3/5A - Leak Sandwich modified - Grado SR125X modified
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Acousticzen
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Re: Steve's BIG BETSY Project
Reply #1453 - 04/16/20 at 21:51:47
 
Toppy,

I would love to see the speakers!
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Tooppy
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Re: Steve's BIG BETSY Project
Reply #1454 - 04/16/20 at 22:08:39
 
I'll post this weekend, time to snap, reduce the size etc...
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IFI Streamer - RME_ADI2_DAC_FS - SE84_UFO-2,1 - LII_F15 in Karlsonator DIY - Decware interconnect - DIY speaker cable - Thorens TD166MKII_Grace G707+A&R p77+Schiit Mani - FirstWatt F5 - Klipsch KG3 - Rogers LS3/5A - Leak Sandwich modified - Grado SR125X modified
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Archie
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Re: Steve's BIG BETSY Project
Reply #1455 - 04/17/20 at 01:07:31
 
Tooppy,

I looked at your old posts on the F15s and I'm a little confused.  Did you ever run them in a baffle?  I only see that you ran them naked on the floor.

I'm looking forward to seeing the enclosure you are building for them.
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ZLC
Technics 1200G TT w/ Ortofon Jubilee MC cart
ZMC1
ZP3 (25th A Mods)
ZR2 (25th A Mods)
CSP3 (25th A mods)
ZMA (25th A mods)
Homemade Big Betsy Speakers (F15s)
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Steve Deckert
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Re: Steve's BIG BETSY Project
Reply #1456 - 05/20/20 at 01:56:20
 
Off-Topic replies have been moved to this Topic.
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Steve Deckert
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Re: Steve's BIG BETSY Project
Reply #1457 - 05/20/20 at 02:04:33
 
Dan Posted:

My Big Betsy's are sounding better than ever with the addition of a "tweeter".  Its not really a tweeter, as its running full range, but it functions as a tweeter in that it adds some sparkle on the high end.  It just seems to make everything better.  The hi end, the "hit" from a snare drum, and even the already huge sound stage is even bigger.  Imaging doesn't seem to suffer either.  Everything just seems better.

It doesn't seem to be real sensitive as to what small driver I use.  I first used the 6.5" Tang Bands that were in my corner horns, then moved to some real cheep 8" coax speakers I had lying around.  Finally settled in on the Dayton 6.5" point source full range speaker that I had an extra pair of on the shelf.  The Dayton is the best of the three simply because it is more efficient and that matched better to the the F15's.  The Daytons are running full range off a second amp (a Zkit60) while the F15's are running off some prototype Zkit60 monoblocks.  Two 15" subs in the corners complete the system and its sounding better than anything else I've ever had in the workshop.  I'd even go so far as to say its matching what Steve is getting out of his OB's - maybe even better because of the higher bass output due to the sub.



I was running the Daytons with a DSP for a while, the $80 DIY unit from Parts Express 230-322.  This allowed the addition of a hi pass filter to keep the lowest bass out of the Daytons and some other peak filters to help flatten out the frequency response of the entire system, but the DSP added a fair amount of hum and hiss that detracted from the super black background I am getting without the DSP.  It sounds almost as good just running full range.



I was able to secure the 12" x 12" plywood baffle used for the 6.5 Daytons to the Big Betsy using the six screws that hold the handle in place, so no new holes in the Big Betsy's.


Dan
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Steve Deckert
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Re: Steve's BIG BETSY Project
Reply #1458 - 05/20/20 at 02:10:35
 

I will be testing some new drivers from Lii Audio this summer!

These will be an 18 inch version of the F15's if you can believe that!  Still in development, no release date has been issued.  But as always, I'll keep you updated as things progress.

Steve
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Tooppy
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Re: Steve's BIG BETSY Project
Reply #1459 - 05/20/20 at 09:50:28
 
Dan,

As far as you add another driver you get out of Steve's idea of a full range OB. I don't mean it is not interesting but it becomes either a two or three ways speakers, different beast all together.
While I went with a different "box" so to speak, because OB didn't fit into my room, I believe Steve's OB is an excellent full range option if you have the room.
I think not many people can hear anything above 12k nor below 40, so a good full range is better than anything else if you don't "imagine" music but listen to it.
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IFI Streamer - RME_ADI2_DAC_FS - SE84_UFO-2,1 - LII_F15 in Karlsonator DIY - Decware interconnect - DIY speaker cable - Thorens TD166MKII_Grace G707+A&R p77+Schiit Mani - FirstWatt F5 - Klipsch KG3 - Rogers LS3/5A - Leak Sandwich modified - Grado SR125X modified
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joespride
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Re: Steve's BIG BETSY Project
Reply #1460 - 07/04/20 at 15:47:08
 
A lot of Lurking, Not much posting. I have built a couple of the betsy style baffles using Bass Aug. I currently have a Caintuck betsy sized baffle f-15 paired with an H-Frame using an Emm alpha 15. Bi Amping using Rachael for the F-15 and Crown xls1002 for bass cutting in at 125hz.

I found a European Baltic Birch counter top that is 1.75 inches thick (solid wood product) I am wondering what folks here think the Baltic birch would perform for a big betsy ?  I would love to get away from bi-amping. Much appreciated
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Archie
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Re: Steve's BIG BETSY Project
Reply #1461 - 07/04/20 at 16:02:29
 
Early on Steve made a pair of baffles out of baltic birch.  They are somewhere in that long thread.  A Forum member bought them.
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ZLC
Technics 1200G TT w/ Ortofon Jubilee MC cart
ZMC1
ZP3 (25th A Mods)
ZR2 (25th A Mods)
CSP3 (25th A mods)
ZMA (25th A mods)
Homemade Big Betsy Speakers (F15s)
Silver Cabling
DIY Isolation platforms under amps & TT.
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joespride
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Re: Steve's BIG BETSY Project
Reply #1462 - 07/04/20 at 17:18:53
 
I read where Steve made a pair or 2 from Baltic Birch PLY I am talking about a solid wood 1.75 inches thick. It of course has solid boards glued together in order to achieve the width needed.  Fairly sure this will alter the sound Baltic Ply VS Baltic Solid wood.   I know Baltic PLY is used on a great many Speaker designs due to its void free character.
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Archie
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Re: Steve's BIG BETSY Project
Reply #1463 - 07/04/20 at 19:57:07
 
Oh, sorry I missed that it's solid wood.  In my experience, birch is a fairly dense wood.  I'm not sure what baltic birch is like.  Dense and thick seem to be the preferred woods for the big baffles.  I used 1 1/2" hard maple butcher block with great results.

Try looking up wood densities and see where baltic birch falls.  Good results have been had with oak, maple, cherry and the exotics Steve used.  I bet that birch will be great!
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ZLC
Technics 1200G TT w/ Ortofon Jubilee MC cart
ZMC1
ZP3 (25th A Mods)
ZR2 (25th A Mods)
CSP3 (25th A mods)
ZMA (25th A mods)
Homemade Big Betsy Speakers (F15s)
Silver Cabling
DIY Isolation platforms under amps & TT.
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joespride
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Re: Steve's BIG BETSY Project
Reply #1464 - 07/05/20 at 00:25:28
 
Took your advice the birch is near identical to oak on the Janka hardness scale. I guess that means its would be a decent wood, now to make some comparisons cost wise. The birch can be done for close to 320.00 for the big betsy 42 X 32............Going to check locally and see where oak and walnut fall. My dream would be Walnut with the oak strip down the center. As is often the case on a fixed income dreams must be tempered with reality  Appreciate the input  Joe
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Archie
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Re: Steve's BIG BETSY Project
Reply #1465 - 07/05/20 at 17:59:50
 
Walnut isn't as dense, I think.  Gluing up something would be best for cost and getting what you want but I found even using big blanks the build was surprisingly long and involved.  If I were starting from scratch I'd get 8/4 hickory and go from there.  Hickory is the densest domestic wood I could find.
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ZLC
Technics 1200G TT w/ Ortofon Jubilee MC cart
ZMC1
ZP3 (25th A Mods)
ZR2 (25th A Mods)
CSP3 (25th A mods)
ZMA (25th A mods)
Homemade Big Betsy Speakers (F15s)
Silver Cabling
DIY Isolation platforms under amps & TT.
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joespride
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Re: Steve's BIG BETSY Project
Reply #1466 - 07/13/20 at 19:20:40
 
OK so I have the Baltic solid wood and I am at the point of decision time. Can anyone comment on the actual difference in SQ between the ZF15M and the ZF15L either would be on the 1.75" thick Baltic. I have built similar baffles a few times I want this to be my final build. The wood gets expensive on a fixed income. I did build betsy baffles out of the same baltic and they are surprising in SQ but as I expected light in the bass dept.  I am hoping to have a single driver OB that RARELY needs bass Aug. I mainly listen to folk, Singer Songwriter, Jazz, & Acoustic. there are those occasions where things simply MUST have hard hitting bass for that I have a pair of hard hitting DIY sealed subs or H-Frames.  My room is smallish at 13 X 16 so the smaller baffle would fit better however I can use the larger if its a significant difference in bass quality
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joespride
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Re: Steve's BIG BETSY Project
Reply #1467 - 07/14/20 at 15:35:19
 
Hello Steve can you elaborate a bit on the actual SQ difference between the Medium and the Large baffles.  I am at the cutting point and cant make up my mind. While I know the smaller of the 2 baffles would better suit my listening room (space constraints) I would hate to build the medium only to find out there is a large difference and I am losing a LOT of bass performance.  My plan is to use solid Birch that measures 1.75 inches thick. using a Boiled Linseed Oil finish. Your advice / expertise would be greatly appreciated Wink
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Archie
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Re: Steve's BIG BETSY Project
Reply #1468 - 07/14/20 at 16:29:39
 
I can't speak for Steve, but my impression is that he did his best to reduce the size of the baffle, more for space/size reasons than for sound.  If you have a big enough baffle blank and enough room space then cut the big baffle.
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ZLC
Technics 1200G TT w/ Ortofon Jubilee MC cart
ZMC1
ZP3 (25th A Mods)
ZR2 (25th A Mods)
CSP3 (25th A mods)
ZMA (25th A mods)
Homemade Big Betsy Speakers (F15s)
Silver Cabling
DIY Isolation platforms under amps & TT.
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joespride
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Re: Steve's BIG BETSY Project
Reply #1469 - 07/14/20 at 16:38:02
 
Thanks for the response. My issue is I only get 1 shot at this. The smaller baffle will be a better fit but I do not want to sacrifice SQ for a better fit. If we are talking about a 5% difference in SQ then its not an issue. If we are talking about a 25% difference then I would always be wondering and having regrets. Unfortunately mind set for me always plays a role in musical enjoyment. Undecided
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joespride
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Re: Steve's BIG BETSY Project
Reply #1470 - 07/14/20 at 16:47:59
 
One more thing does anyone have a link or any idea where I might find the 8" cast iron handle ?  Thanks in advance
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Archie
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Re: Steve's BIG BETSY Project
Reply #1471 - 07/14/20 at 16:52:03
 
I bought mine from this guy.  I offered less than list.  Some smoothing is required and they come in the white.  I used a "bluing compound" to blacken mine.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Pair-of-9-Large-Rustic-Handles-for-Barn-Door-or-Gate-Pu...
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ZLC
Technics 1200G TT w/ Ortofon Jubilee MC cart
ZMC1
ZP3 (25th A Mods)
ZR2 (25th A Mods)
CSP3 (25th A mods)
ZMA (25th A mods)
Homemade Big Betsy Speakers (F15s)
Silver Cabling
DIY Isolation platforms under amps & TT.
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Archie
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Re: Steve's BIG BETSY Project
Reply #1472 - 07/14/20 at 16:53:16
 
The never knowing if you go smaller than bigger is like a mind virus!   Cry
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ZLC
Technics 1200G TT w/ Ortofon Jubilee MC cart
ZMC1
ZP3 (25th A Mods)
ZR2 (25th A Mods)
CSP3 (25th A mods)
ZMA (25th A mods)
Homemade Big Betsy Speakers (F15s)
Silver Cabling
DIY Isolation platforms under amps & TT.
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joespride
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Re: Steve's BIG BETSY Project
Reply #1473 - 07/14/20 at 17:02:05
 
Grin  Aint it the truth
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joespride
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Re: Steve's BIG BETSY Project
Reply #1474 - 07/14/20 at 17:03:23
 
Thanks for the handles link have them ordered
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joespride
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Re: Steve's BIG BETSY Project
Reply #1475 - 07/17/20 at 01:55:21
 
Went with the ZF15M build and finished them today. Never would I have believed yhis kind of bass was possible from a single driver. This has opened up a hole new world of music & gear for me now. I just have to figure out where to store oe get rid of 4 15" emenance alpha pro drivers I certainly have no reason to use bass augmentation now. Steve Thanks a ton for this project  I would add a pic if I could figure out how to Undecided
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joespride
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Re: Steve's BIG BETSY Project
Reply #1476 - 07/17/20 at 02:09:52
 
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monia
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Re: Steve's BIG BETSY Project
Reply #1477 - 07/28/20 at 10:04:21
 
before you were talking about river tables - good projects i have found also here: https://www.epoxidharztisch.de/ you can inspire on their products
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Steve Deckert
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Re: Steve's BIG BETSY Project
Reply #1478 - 07/28/20 at 21:59:20
 

Joespride - congratulations on your ZF15M build!  Here is a link on how to post pictures:

https://www.decware.com/cgi-bin/yabb22/YaBB.pl?num=1541104731

We'd love to see them!

Steve
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joespride
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Re: Steve's BIG BETSY Project
Reply #1479 - 07/29/20 at 04:27:12
 
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joespride
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Re: Steve's BIG BETSY Project
Reply #1480 - 07/29/20 at 04:41:38
 
I have tried following the instructions to post a pic but it does not seem to work the link goes to the pic not sure what I am missing.

Love the ZF15M Paired with my Rachael straight amp (not the integrated) It is very near the best sound I have had IMHO............
I sweated over building either the L or M I wanted the best sound I could get. In the end the size difference in my room won out. I could not believe the extra 6 inches in height paired with 3 inches width could possibly be a big difference in sound quality. As a bonus the wife is also happy with the look.  
Steve I found your description right on. I dont get a lot of height in the sound stage 5 maybe 6 feet max but every speaker has its limits and I will take the single driver over Bi-amping any day  ;D
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Donnie
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Re: Steve's BIG BETSY Project
Reply #1481 - 07/29/20 at 13:18:21
 
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joespride
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Re: Steve's BIG BETSY Project
Reply #1482 - 07/29/20 at 17:01:18
 
Thank you for posting the pic  Joe  ;)
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Donnie
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Re: Steve's BIG BETSY Project
Reply #1483 - 07/29/20 at 17:15:21
 
No Problem.

The next time put the web address between the brackets.
Don't feel bad, everyone misses that part, at least at first.
Put the address where I have the asterisk

img] * [img

I had to modify it to show up!




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joespride
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Re: Steve's BIG BETSY Project
Reply #1484 - 07/29/20 at 18:15:49
 


Testing I put the link between the brackets and no PIC  :(
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Re: Steve's BIG BETSY Project
Reply #1485 - 07/29/20 at 20:17:56
 
Did you use a router to cut the hole for the speaker?
If so, was it difficult to cut in rod glued wood?
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joespride
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Re: Steve's BIG BETSY Project
Reply #1486 - 07/29/20 at 22:12:00
 
I used a router to cut the speaker cut outs and the edges, I took probably 25 or 30 passes per to make the cut and used a 1/2 in shank 2.5 inch long carbide straight flute bit that was basically new. Some chaffing but no real splintering or chunks.  My router is a Bosch 2 1/4 HP Plunge router

I think the biggest thing is patience and take small bites at a time, I could feel and hear when I went to deep the router definitely struggled Shocked
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dennis66
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Re: Steve's BIG BETSY Project
Reply #1487 - 07/29/20 at 22:18:27
 
Thank’s! That’s good information before I start.
I plan to glue two IKEA GERTON (60 mm total thickness) together.

https://www.ikea.com/se/sv/p/gerton-bordsskiva-bok-50106773/

Sorry for the Swedish link.
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joespride
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Re: Steve's BIG BETSY Project
Reply #1488 - 07/29/20 at 22:33:05
 
nice looking stuff

heres a link to what I used a single piece 229.00 and will be enough forr a pair of the ZF15M

https://www.lowes.com/pd/The-Baltic-Butcher-Block-6-ft-Natural-Straight-Butcher-...
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Joey
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Re: Steve's BIG BETSY Project
Reply #1489 - 08/01/20 at 02:10:11
 
I have followed this thread for quite some time now and I'm still not sure if my main listening space would properly accommodate the 15M size. Nevertheless, I must give Steve credit for relaunching my interest in woodworking.

I've been retooling my shop and stocking up some nice planks of 8/4 maple, cherry, and white oak. Been making outdoor chairs and a few other things, but rediscovering the joys of woodworking has been a real treat.

Thanks Steve and all who have chimed in on this thread!!!

BTW, It's also breaking my bank account but may be cheaper than a new bass boat.
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joespride
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Re: Steve's BIG BETSY Project
Reply #1490 - 09/06/20 at 19:55:06
 
  New Report. I have been a convert of SET amplification for nearly 20 years now. With age and reduced hearing I have found myself drifting back and forth between PP and SET. With the ZF15M in house for a few months now I am finding they do quite well with a bit more power (namely Dynaco ST 70) I know there are better amps out there but I have been smitten. When coupled with the Single driver of the ZF115M this has been my favorite set up in a LONG time. With the added power a drum solo can sound absolutely lifelike and feel lifelike to boot. On some bass heavy music I actually get the feeling in the chest. While I have subwoofers I have had ZERO desire to integrate one into my listening.

I would LOVE to hear the ZMA but on a fixed income thats not going to happen.  I dare say this is the ONLY single driver speaker design capable of such top to BOTTOM performance, at such an elevated sound quality
Kudos to you Steve.

Some of you might want to experiment with higher power the results are quite astonishing Grin
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Re: Steve's BIG BETSY Project
Reply #1491 - 10/10/20 at 06:08:17
 
This is such a great thread! So much information, very thankful for that!

Hi Steve,
two questions:
1. is it possible to also post a recording of the 11 min mix for the ZC10M? That would be super helpful to compare to the ZC15L and Lii Reference speakers.

2. Are baffle speaker sensitive to asymmetric rooms? My new living room will have the speaker at one side close to a wall and on the other side far away from the wall?

Thanks!
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- Stefan
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Rega rp6, Lounge Audio phono pre-amp, Lonely Raven PC, T+A DAC 8 DSD, ZBIT, ZROCK2+25th, SE84UFO25, Torii IV, Denon AVC-1SE, Infinity IRS Beta, Tannoy Cheviot, ERRx, Tiny Radials, Woo WA-3, Sennheiser HD800S
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Stefan
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Re: Steve's BIG BETSY Project
Reply #1492 - 11/17/20 at 22:17:12
 
Hi Steve,
now that the silver 10 are out, will the ZC10M be available with those as well? Have you already heard them and can comment on how they compare to the crystal 10?
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- Stefan
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Rega rp6, Lounge Audio phono pre-amp, Lonely Raven PC, T+A DAC 8 DSD, ZBIT, ZROCK2+25th, SE84UFO25, Torii IV, Denon AVC-1SE, Infinity IRS Beta, Tannoy Cheviot, ERRx, Tiny Radials, Woo WA-3, Sennheiser HD800S
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Steve Deckert
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Re: Steve's BIG BETSY Project
Reply #1493 - 11/18/20 at 16:22:23
 
Hi,

Yes, the plan was to have all of the speakers done by now, and then CoVid19 hit.  Now we're 300% of capacity.   I do have some new drivers coming in to test from Lii, we'll see what they are and how they perform hopefully soon and if any make it into the product line they will be added to the demos.

Steve
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Stefan
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Re: Steve's BIG BETSY Project
Reply #1494 - 11/21/20 at 02:03:47
 
Great, looking forward to the updates Steve, and glad you have lots of orders to keep you busy Smiley
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- Stefan
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Rega rp6, Lounge Audio phono pre-amp, Lonely Raven PC, T+A DAC 8 DSD, ZBIT, ZROCK2+25th, SE84UFO25, Torii IV, Denon AVC-1SE, Infinity IRS Beta, Tannoy Cheviot, ERRx, Tiny Radials, Woo WA-3, Sennheiser HD800S
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joespride
Senior Member
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Posts: 70
Re: Steve's BIG BETSY Project
Reply #1495 - 11/30/20 at 18:29:03
 
Had my ZF15M for a while now and still loving the sound.  One major complaint I have had is HEIGHT I was never really able to get any height. I thought with the Single Driver cone at a mere 19 inches off the floor I was pretty much doomed to listen as is.  Basically face to face with the artist. In a fit of frustration I started moving things by feet instead of inches and stumbled on to Sound Stage Nirvana

Set up is as follows.  Speakers are 10 feet apart with no side walls for several feet goes into open kitchen and hallway on the opposite side. I pulled the speakers out 6 feet off the front wall,  My seating Position is 6 feet off the speakers. No Toe in (firing straight forward) Soundstage is easily 20 feet wide now, artist is 6 feet off the floor, some aspects of the music are now 8 feet high. and as you might imagine Sound Stage is very Deep  ;D



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Shah Sazib
Verified Member
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Posts: 3
Re: Steve's BIG BETSY Project
Reply #1496 - 02/19/21 at 16:52:31
 
Hi Jeff! Also check out here - www.build-a-cross.com
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Donnie
Seasoned Member
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Why does it hurt
when I pee?

Posts: 2189
Re: Steve's BIG BETSY Project
Reply #1497 - 02/19/21 at 17:18:28
 
Smoke turds in hell you lowlife Spammer!
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Owner of the infamous RED TORII and Dan the Redheaded Amp
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Palomino
Seasoned Member
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Posts: 2474
Re: Steve's BIG BETSY Project
Reply #1498 - 02/19/21 at 17:29:55
 
Donnie, may I borrow that phrase?
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i7 Mac Mini with LPSU/SSD running Audirvana 3.5, Uptone Audio Regen on LPSU, Mytek Brooklyn DAC+, Ven Haus DIY Silver ICs, 25th Ann. Zen, PS Audio P5 Power Supply, PS Audio Power Cords, GR Research Speaker Wire, DIY Big Betsy and Crystal 10 Open Baffle Speakers
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Donnie
Seasoned Member
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Why does it hurt
when I pee?

Posts: 2189
Re: Steve's BIG BETSY Project
Reply #1499 - 02/19/21 at 21:12:56
 
Palo,

Why yes feel free to use it.

Anything I do anything "questionable" I always say that I'll smoke a turd in hell for that one.
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Owner of the infamous RED TORII and Dan the Redheaded Amp
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