So here's a thought - ZTPRE with regulator tubes?

Time for an update on the Anniversary Zen Triode amplifier...  I was fortunate enough to have my good friend Randy of Caintuck Audio over yesterday, who's ears I completely trust, for some conformation.

The sound of this amplifier seems too good to be true and since I found out I'm not dead and it's still happening I better be sure I haven't just simply lost it.

The good news is that I haven't lost it. We sat down to listen to it around 5:00 P.M. and before we even realized what happened it was 2:00 A.M. and then I decided to do the unthinkable, I put on some analogue tape.

Couple things happened... we both found out at the same time, despite my doing it for years, what tape actually sounds like.  It ruined us both.  

Also after spinning a few tapes my cat tried his hand at operating the tape machine which didn't go well for the tape. And interestingly I could have cared less that an expensive tape was nearly destroyed because the high you get from this kind of sound is so strong that it takes a lot more than that to kill your buzz.

This morning after a nice breakfast, we sat down to listen for a bit and next thing you know it's around 3:00 P.M. So clearly I think this illustrates that time travel is possible.

I'll also make the following observation: At 10:00 A.M. when we sat down to listen the sound quality was virtually indistinguishable from the sound we got during the middle of the night.  And I've been noticing this happen for the last week now.

On a personal level, this is the biggest breakthrough I've had since I built my first tube amp and discovered the middle of the night bloom of which I've written some articles on. I say that because I've always dreamed of and tried to figure out a way to get THAT middle of the night sound during the daytime. In the 1990's, I listened only at night, and because of those middle of the night experiences I have never until today been able to do any serious listening during the day... This is going to be a serious game changer for me. Not only does this somehow recreate the middle of the night bloom, but it does it with easily more than twice the un-hyped up detail that I've ever heard.

Despite my earlier efforts and I think Randy will agree, there are not words to accurately describe what we heard, nor will there ever be. It's something you have to hear for yourself to believe it. Randy and I go all the way back to the first Zen Triodes and have been listening to them for all these years and this thing simply went were no amp has gone before.

I believe the amp had its way with Randy, just as it did with me last week when I posted about it... so now I feel like it's a real thing and not some weird spell I cast on myself that makes me hear things that aren't really there.

Steve

Exiting! I think I can imagine what you are hearing!

Since I started playing with bypasses on the power supplies of my Torii and CSP3, after eliminating caps I had that were not ideal for all types of music and tones, and finding ones that worked nicely together, I came to a combination that has remained pretty solid in the Torii. Though I still play around a little, I keep coming back to a similar place...six or seven pairs of bypasses (1 or 2, depending on the arrangement, bypassing bypasses), the combination of different synergistic cap values and types adding complexity that is really beautiful.

With connectors and the volume pot upgraded also, what you describe sounds similar to what I am hearing....lucid, fast, easier flow, deep, fine detail complexity in deeper space bringing out definition, textures, enhanced ambient and harmonic complexity, bass solidity, natural timbre, improved soundstage saturation and separation....

When I imagine VRs for each tube's power, UFOs, a super simple circuit, and quality bypasses on a more discrete power supply...it must be magnificent!

Were the euphoric listening sessions using the "new" 8" speaker horns or a combination of several speakers?

Tonight I am listening to the SE84UFO3 with the anniversary update. Since it is just starting the burn-in it of course has me thinking about burn-in and I realized something important. Capacitors have memory that occurs in the specifics of how the dielectric and the foil seat together. Temperature cycles and signal passing through the cap creates a physical change in the cap that you can hear.  

It's been my experience as I've mentioned in the past that if you want your caps to sound good on music, use music to train them during the break-in process. Use music that is well recorded only. Use music that you like. Do not use burn-in discs as that will train your cap in many cases to play test tones and then when you switch to music it has to be re-trained to sound good with music. Can it ever be completely retrained is the question.

It is very apparent even in the first hours of listening to these monos that like the stereo unit, there is simply no grain in the high voltage power supply so even unburned in the amp has over the top liquidity. That means that the coupling caps are never going to see or experience grain ever in their service lifetime so I think this is having a profound effect on the sound of the cap as a result of how it is burning in.

The immediate difference I hear between the two at this awakening state is that the mono's have more power and more headroom. I'll keep you posted as things develop.



To comment on Randy's post, I felt like the speakers on Tuesday were simply extraordinary and still just as hard to believe as ever! In fact I heard more similarities between the two speakers than differences until you look at size price and weight and then there is no competition for Randy's baffles.

Here is how good they actually are - if I had to give a demo of this new amplifier in front of the worlds audio critics with Randy's baffles, especially these new ones, I wouldn't even hesitate. Besides meeting my criteria for a speaker able to clearly demo what the amp is all about, it would just make the amp more impressive since people would have such a hard time rationalizing what they hear from such a simple and smaller speaker they would give the amp more credit.

One thing I learned as a result of the things we did during Randy's visit is that at this level it is an exquisite balance between speakers and amplifier and room to get the kind of sound stage depth we were getting. During one test with crossover points on the Baffles changing it by a few percent made the back of the sound stage somewhat disappear. This is because the midrange got about 1/2dB louder and the phase angle no doubt changed from the change in inductor size. I know that this would have been easy to miss with any other amplifier because no amplifier I've heard has the same focus for ever layer all the way to the very back of the sound stage.  

If sound were light and ears were eyes, even with 20/20 vision depth of field is less focused than what's up front and since audio amplifiers always seemed to achieve a similar result it is easy to assume that it is the same for sound. It's actually not. The focus does't change regardless of how far away the sound is, unless something alters it.  So it's quite alarming to hear such 4K focus so far back in the stage and realize that's how it really actually is.


Steve

Last year I purchased 2 ufo2's steve wired them for mono to cope with my 16-19 ohm druids, and I was debating if I should get the 25th anniversary amps,  I thought nah...  then I looked at what I spend on cartridges.   Then thought I am in!

I'm still listening to the monos and the thoughts that come to mind tonight is that I am reminded why I like the Beeswax caps as the burn in is so much less traumatic and quite a bit faster.  Already the amps are sounding so good that I know I'll be on the fence as to which one is actually better.  The slightly higher voltage of the monos and power that comes with it brings an endearing sense of honesty to the playback, but other than that it's hard to tell what the differences are without a lot of tube rolling. It's very captivating so far.

Steve

Good questions and suggestions Lon and seikosha.  I do think he mentioned something about an upgraded green colored chassis a couple pages back ... trying to imagine what that would look like?  Perhaps the green color of some old school Altec Lansing drivers.  I also like your idea of a silver Decware 25th Anniversary badge/moniker like the Decware/Icon with 3D plate.

Interesting results. Sound like amazing amplifiers, both versions, and we're excited.  I'm a bit confused. . . stick to the Zen if with speakers 94 or below, and the Monos above 94?

I'm really enjoying the Taboo Mk IV with the ZROCK2 and ZTPRE and even have headroom with the HR-1s. The only real "wish list" for this set up would be a Treble Cut Circuit as well. Perhaps I should just stay with this set up if I want to continue to use the HR-1s, especially as I have to have the speakers closer to the front wall than I'd like. Any chance the Taboo Mk IV could (in time) take advantage of this "Anniversary" re-design? Perhaps only possible with a "power amp only" version?

Lots to think about, and exciting times in Decwarelandia.

Quote:


If I am not mistaken, I believe what Steve is saying is, if you don't have speakers with at least an efficiency of 94dB, you should not go with the 25th Anniversary amplifiers (monos included) and instead utilize the standard 2-watt Zen amps - or other Decware amps in the current line up.  

The magic of these 25th Anniversary amps will not be realized with less efficient speakers (less than 94dB).

I would think 2 bridged stereo amps would have enough power, in terms of magic and transparency, that's a steve question.

@ J of A ... I agree with Lon ... your interpretation seems to be about the best of the bunch.  I'm sure it's going to be a great amp regardless, but it seems as if the Zen Ann's improvements are going to be much more noticeable with high efficiency speakers above 94dB and greater.

Lon, sorry to hear that these might not work out for you as you are one of the most vocal supporters of them ... hopefully Steve will chime in about going bridged (though that's going to be expensive).

Although from Steve's enthusiasm the Zen Ann's are blowing away the 6c33c mono's at this point ... my initial disappointment with hearing that another 2 watt iteration was coming forward was its limited ability of play back with speakers that are less than what I would consider high efficient seems to be coming into reality again and I'm not sure if these are for me either.  

I know that even my single driver 95.5dB Omega's are super easy to drive with the Taboo MK II, but I still sometimes wish for a little more headroom when watching movies (not with music as I am completely covered there, but during quiet dialog passages I always find myself reaching for the remote to turn up the volume in some cases to the absolute max).  Perhaps one day he'll get around to making another SET with more power and headroom.

Well Lon, you could always go Omega (jk ... I know you love your HR-1s!)

Another Update of the SE84UFO3's with the mod...  funny how this hobby works - today I listened to the monos again and gave them my blessing comparing them to the un-modded mono's even my cat could hear they were better.  So I decided to put the poor guy who ordered them out of his misery and get the amps in the shipping room today.  

I turned them off and hooked up the stereo unit which has been unplugged for a few days and turned it on to let it warm up. Curious how it would compare now that the monos are burned in and I'm happy with the results, I turned up the volume and prepared to un-pause the source which had been playing on the monos when I turned them off. Same song, right in the middle.

Now if you read yesterdays post, you know I was pretty convinced these mono amps sounded almost the same as the stereo amp. Then I hit the play button and in under 3 seconds the stereo amp had basically laid the monos to rest. I suppose the look on my face would have been priceless.

So, all day I spent making the mono amps as close to the stereo as possible. This involved installing the additional VR tube and then setting up an independent filter supply for it. I put an OC3 on the inside of the amp since it's likely to last for many years. Eight hours later the monos are almost a carbon copy except for two resistor values that were raised slightly to deal with the higher voltage. The fear of failure made me smarter as it usually does, and I was able to overcome how to get the second VR tube to work.

So having just put them back on line and un-pausing the source, it took again about 3 seconds to recognize the sound. It's now JUICY like the stereo model and can be billed as a mono version of the same amp with the same sound.

This was important because there are likely to be SE84UFO3 owners who after following this development thread will want to hear this anniversary amp and if their amps can be upgraded to the same sound and performance they will be thrilled. You can imagine however if a SE84UFO3 owner gets the mod, loves it, decides some day to get the stereo anniversary model and compares the two and they don't sound the same...

So one more evening with the monos, I'll let you know what happens.

Steve

beowulf wrote on 01/25/18 at 00:12:22:

Well, I know those are great speakers. But. . . I won't be able to afford speakers and amp. And. . . I have a unique situation. I'm using half of a big room in our house (that started out as a cabin. . . one big room that is living room, dining room, den. . . One half of it (with an irregular, sloping ceiling) is the living room and my system is in this half. The HR-1s have a magic that allows one speaker to be near a corner and the other to be without a side wall. I put two chairs along that side and I get left and right with nearly identical frequency balances and a strong center image. . . it's all almost as if this was a complete room, not half a room. I've had other speakers in this room. . . and boy that does NOT happen. So not only do I love the HR-1s, and somehow afforded them and paid for them, but I'm loathe to change speakers as I can't change where the system is set up, this is the only possibility even IF I had free reign to set up the system anywhere.

I think I can live with the Monoblocks, I'll put that to the test soon. As I have a lot of gain from the P10, the DS DASC and the ZBIT And ZTPRE the HR-1s are surprisingly nimble with lower powered amps in this room, and I have a Zen C that was modified by Eddie Vaughn to be a power amp that I can hook up and run through its paces with both audio and video aspects of the system. If the C cuts the mustard the Monos will, and I'm pretty sure with my system I won't be wasting money on the sound quality. And if I someday get higher efficiency speakers that work in this room, or another room, I'll have the amp to use. And there's still possibilities of birding two, or that there may be another option on the horizon. Hope is still alive!

TONIGHTS NOTES:

Bass & Drum Intro - Niles Lofgren Band Live: Just sounds and feels completely real.  My thought is that this will short people out because it's too good.  They won't believe it, and they'll think either they've lost it, or some kind of trickery is involved.  They'll talk themselves down from it to keep their sanity.

Tarova - Snark Puppy: Sounds like I am standing there live in so much as it sounds real. But I'm listening to a solid state P.A. system of average to above average quality.  This explains why I've always had some issue with this one.

Midnight Procession - Boris Blank: The master of texture, soundstage and dynamics. The music feels so real and so much more real than normal that I feel like I'm doing something forbidden like looking at porn.

Ein Samen Kauboj - Friedemann: The vividness of some of the instruments, like the wood block. The complexity and texture in that simple wood block strike even though it's only 1 second long is like purchasing a book and when you got home the covers and pages were glued shut.  Tonight it opened and there are 632 pages in that one second strike.

Afro Dite - Friedemann: The slide up the guitar string has enough data in it and hangs time long enough that any good guitar player would know what brand strings they are and how long they've been on the guitar. Most audiophiles are thrilled to hear the finger sounds on the strings, which is like 4 pages of a book several hundred pages long. Even live you don't get this much detail from the strings a lot of the time because the noise floor in the room is higher, your setting farther away, or the same distance but speakers are focused at your head, the real guitar is an omni directional instrument that to sound like this has to be close miked. That means the sound I am hearing is the same level of detail and complexity I would hear if I were playing the guitar myself.

That could be the magic of these amps, perhaps somehow they actually create dream time, like drummers get, where time slows down in so much as the notes get farther apart and you have like 5 seconds or more to think about them and plan your next bar even though to everyone else your playing at 120 bpm! Perhaps that's why you hear the notes hang in the air I would say 300% longer with these amps.

The problem then becomes trying to figure out how so much data was actually captured on the CD/Stream?  It just seems completely impossible to me.  

Trackless Deep - Yello: When you first dreamed about hi-end audio looking at a glowing amplifier in the magazine that costs more than your car, and you fantasied about what it might sound like.  This is what it sounds like.

Waving His Hello - Anna Ternheim:  This song is like standing on the edge of the grand canyon listening to angles.  The choir is usually what cracks up when this song is played back and with these amps you can hear it's not distortion in the recording, just an artifact of the compression that the engineers were likely unable to hear.

Partido Alto - Dominic Miller:  Exciting presence with forward and intimate dynamics, it just sounds completely real.  Crazy real.


Observation - I spend 50% of my time in the sweet spot and 50% just outside the listening zone where I hear the room and not the speakers. When the music sounds too good outside the listening zone that I have to go set in the sweet spot to see what's happening I notice a difference in the sound quality between the spots... obviously, but each has it's merits. What I notice or realize tonight is that when I walk into the sweet spot now the difference is three times larger than expected. This is solid science because I go between these two spots every day, seven days a week and on average 8 hours a day or more.  It's what I do. So I am used to the difference in sound I am going to hear from my outside the listening zone location and my in the sweet spot location. Very used to it. To be completely stunned each time I do it now, is just nuts.

If you analyze what I wrote the last couple days about these monos and compare that to what I'm writing now you can clearly see the state of mind is different. Tonight I am not alone because the music is here and it's now conscious, completely tangible and real. Before this last go around I would say it was so good I couldn't find anything wrong with it, seriously, but it wasn't alive and it wasn't conscious. You can sense consciousness when it is in the same room with you.

Saitensprung - Friedemann: Just such a great execution.  So 3D, expansive and intimate with such exquisite textures. Listening to this when it's over I find myself thinking if this much detail can be found in a 16 bit format which is what's left of a 20 bit master with the least significant bits erased (4 bits) compared to other amps I must have only been perceiving about 10 bits. I realize I am up sampling with the ZDAC2 everything to DSD but no algorithm can write this much correct information between the dots. So since there is no logical explanation we go back to the spiritual explanations where the music manifests through the amplifier and has it's way with the room and speakers because it's not bound by physics.

Witching Hour - Jesse Cook: I can see a stand up bass that like a Disney animation, has arms and legs and it's playing itself with a somewhat indescribable expression on its face. Sounds completely real, but that part is a little surreal. Like every cut I've played you are feeling the music and it feels like you experience the music and it experiences you.

Takla Makan - Yello, Dorothee Oberlinger: OK, it's so real, I moved my head out of the way as if a baseball was coming at me so I wouldn't get hit in the face with one of the notes in the music.

Another observation: Couple days ago I kicked things up a notch in the monos when I put some NOS Amprex 6DJ8's in the amps similar to the 7DJ8 I have in the stereo model.  I took out the 6N5P, which is just beautiful but I was craving more detail if you can imagine...  tonight I have the 6N5P in the amps and have not even heard the 6DJ8's, nor do I have any plan to this evening.  I'm afraid to.  We're out in the neutral zone here and this is no time to be "censored" with the ship.

And make no mistake about it, these are space ships that can travel both through space and through time. There is no drug that can compare to music that sounds this good.

I Tried to Tell You - Smooth Jazz Lounge Nights: Sounds like a very nice dinner club with a front and center table, the building is solid and old, you can feel it in the sound. No drywall or steel studs here. The drum kit has an energy in the high hats that you would only experience if it were real and you were standing 8 feet in front of the kit.

Oppression - Ben Harper: The bass drum feels like it's 5' in diameter about 20 feet back stage left. It's moving a lot of air in a round pattern coming directly at me.  The separation and tonality, every audiophile adjective (EAA) it contains. Simply real sounding.

Yesterdays (Rudy Van Gelder Edition) (2007 Digital Remaster): The mesmerizing bow on this bass and the bass itself and Mr. Chambers are just so incredible. This recording would sound good even on mid fi gear, .....  on this however,  holy crap, how many times can I say real in a single post.  

There's no sense on going on because everything sounds and feels real. It shouldn't be happening but it is, and it's doing it on 16 bit digital source files.  

Lets just sum it up by saying the UFO3's can be made into UFO325's and at this point the only thing I've learned is that these monos might be better than the stereo model by the mere fact that they are one amp per channel. That is the impression I am getting using tubes that aren't even as good so it's a pretty good sign.

Just for kicks I gots Lon's CD today in the mail with largest existing Tannenberg pipe Organ (1728~1804). Astounding sound not to mention the human pumping bellows to create the air!

I don't know how these amps are doing it, but like all the music these spaceships just make pit stops in different space times and the experience is completely real. Now that I've started listening to this unprocessed organ music well recorded in a large space I'll have to remain here for the rest of the evening. No coming back from this. In fact I'm going to see what kind of organ music I can find on Tidal to amuse myself after this is done. Boy the sound of this particular organ is taking me back to the organ I grew up with as a boy... uncanny resemblance, the room the organ is in sounds familiar, much like the space I remember.

The music on this CD is so good. It completely took me back to 1969 in my dads church.... what a complete trip to go back after more than 40 years. The experience is vivid. Ever have a dream that was completely real? Becoming conscious that you are dreaming in a dream is called lucid dreaming. What is it called when you are awake and become conscious that you are in a dream?  

This reminds me, because organ music will bring many systems to their knees, that despite the 2.7 watts I wouldn't want to turn the volume up any louder. It is at the actual level it would be in the church, which is plenty loud believe me. How is it doing it...  Well it's at the magic live volume or damn near it where even 1dB quieter would take it just outside of real and 2dB would bring it from real back down to real good and there is a large difference between real good and real. I wouldn't want to loose even 1 dB under any circumstances so the speakers must be a solid 94dB from top to bottom and have some bottom.

BTW, I could be getting 98% of everything I'm hearing now from Randy's Baffles believe it or not... as the low slung driver that close to the floor generates real bass and it's large.  So yea, even this CD could be easily appreciated on these amps with Randy's humble speakers.

I'm going to spend the rest of the evening listening to organ pipes resonate through my castle.... it will likely end as it usually does with the IMPERIAL SO's handling the bottom end...  and we have all the power need somehow!


Steve

Using the HR-1's I notice that on Takla Makan for example, you can tell we're right on the edge of the amps clipping so to correct for it, we drop the volume by another dB or two which combined with the 1 dB lower efficiency is just enough to make a difference.  Boy what a tease.  A pair of the stereo amps bridged would just sale right through it as if you were listening to the larger DNA horns with possibly a touch more headroom.  A room that was smaller or more live would also do it so a bridged pair may not be needed for some people.

Meanwhile it has me wondering what the HDT would sound like and many of the other speakers so the rest of winter will be more than bearable as I find out!

Steve

Hey Steve, will the 25th Ann mono blocks also come in the green patina chassis that you mentioned the stereo version will come in?

Lon, is that CD available for sale?

OK Lon, once you reminded me about the CDs I decided to open the box and check them out today...the Tyner in now...I think it will take a couple listens before I settle into it.  The Blue Mitchell looks like quite the line up.  I'm not used to hearing him in such a large group...that one later.

Just to get the interconnects settled and warmed, I put them in the second system between the ZROCK and Monoblocks...so far so good.

Well, I did a quick test. I took the Taboo Mk IV out of my system and put in its place the Zen C amp I have that I bought four years ago (it's one modded by Eddie Vaughn to be a power amp only, and I'm not sure what other modifications were made!)

I didn't listen long. Did is sound anything like the Taboo? It had a family sound. Did it sound better than the Taboo? No. It sure needed time to warm up and come out of its dormant stage from not being used in a few months. And I didn't give it that time. I wanted to go back to pleasure listening.

But I did play music through it from the PS Audio Duo, listened to some TV broadcast via both DVR and the Blu-ray and ran a bit of an episode of the X-Files from the Blu-ray set I've been going through, Season 6.

I was surprised that everything was loud enough. Music, definitely. The video sound. . . yeah my wife might have wanted to turn it up a bit more, she doesn't hear as well as me and likes compressed sound, but man, it was loud enough. Bodes well fr me and any of the 25th Anniversary models to come.

I let out a short and subdued "Yee Ha" (what can I say, I spent more than three decades in Texas) and put the Taboo back in. Now I can stop obsessing. (Yeah, right).

Hi Chris,

Man ..... we really missed you as well.
The Zen Fest is just not quite the same without you being there .....  

On the night that Steve and I enjoyed our extended listening session, we were using the "big DNA horns" exclusively.
While quite a bit of the music was played from Steve's collection and was new to me, I did bring a few CDs that I am very familiar with.

The Anniversary amplifier brought out some things and presented them in a way I had not heard before.  This amplifier is the real deal.

The next morning, I was able to hear the same CDs through my Betsy & Buck speakers, so I had a "double reference" for comparison.

The amp was mind blowing with both pairs of speakers.

Looking forward to having this puppy in production, as well as the upgrades that will be available for existing Decware amplifiers.

Hoping to see you at Decware Fest 2018 .....

Best wishes,
Randy

Hi Chris,

Great to hear for you, and yes you are missed!

During the voicing and subsequent evaluation of an amplifier, it helps to keep variables down to a minimum so I lock into one speaker for the majority of comparisons. I usually pick something pretty fast like the HDT's, but this large DNA horn, which is what I've locked into for the majority of the development, is in the same league and I've been enjoying them since the fest.

For example, as I type this I am back to listening to the stereo model and I can feel the music in the keys of my keyboard while I type this.  Never noticed this before with all the thousands of hours of setting here listening to music... It's no louder than normal, just highly energized.

Such an amazing combination. For my ears it gets everything right from top to bottom, front to back, left to right, floor to ceiling, and does it with a perfect frequency balance in my room.

Because this particular combination makes great recordings sound real, we should describe the control:  ZDAC2's high output transformer coupled RCA jacks feeding the ZTPRE's transformer coupled RCA inputs. The output of the ZTPRE running balanced 22 feet to the ZBIT feeding the SE84UFO25 which is paired with the (let's call them) DNA2's speakers.

I would say the amp and preamp and source are the main gig here, and you could get this magic on any number of different speakers so long as you keep it at 94dB or higher and make sure the speaker has great bass.

Steve

Steve,

The Monos you just shipped were standard or modified?  You lost me in your last post as to what you are missing.

Cool. I hope they went to someone who will report about them here.

The Anniversary Mods for the SE84UFO3 are $680 per amp.