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Steve's BIG BETSY Project (Read 206763 times)
JOMAN
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Re: Steve's BIG BETSY Project
Reply #1050 - 11/15/19 at 00:26:34
 
HMMMMMM???! This would complement my cherry base UFO25 very nicely!
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Re: Steve's BIG BETSY Project
Reply #1051 - 11/15/19 at 00:54:10
 
They will be beautiful. Beautiful monsters! My wife saw me looking at the pair with Wenge (one of my favorite woods) and said quite simply "Don't even think about it!" Which I won't be because there is no way any of these Decware "Betsys" or the Lil Audio cabinet would fit anywhere in our house, and this is the only house we intend to live in for a few decades. . . .

I have to say, a few weeks spent tailoring my main audio system for the new operating system in the DAC (Windom) and re-inserting my CSP3-25 into the audio/visual system has me falling in love with the HR-1s again. Just such revealing and musical speakers, and working so well with the 25th Anniversary Monoblocks and the Taboo Mk IV with 25th Anniversary Mods. You can hardly go wrong with any of the Decware speakers--Steve and Bob make quality products, that's for DAMNED sure.
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JOMAN
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Re: Steve's BIG BETSY Project
Reply #1052 - 11/15/19 at 01:24:51
 
Kind of in the same boat... Perhaps the mid size???  Perhaps I should just hit my pinky with a hammer to remind myself of what will likely ensue should I do it, hence the HMMMMMM????!
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Re: Steve's BIG BETSY Project
Reply #1053 - 11/15/19 at 01:49:12
 
Even the mid-size is too much for me. The only one I could fit and get away with is Randy's version. Still, I am convinced that the HR-1 is the better fit for my listening. I don't need "HIT". . . and I'm not a sound stage freak. I want nice sound for as many of the recordings I listen to as possible, and I've figured out how to get that with the HR-1s and will hold steady.
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Steve Deckert
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Re: Steve's BIG BETSY Project
Reply #1054 - 11/15/19 at 03:31:54
 

A good part of the wood for these baffles should have probably been burned, being split, twisted, full of sapwood, but it was the last of my dads stash, and I actually remember being there watching him cutting down the cherry tree this wormy wood came from when I was 5 years old... so now we can all rest easy that it didn't go to waste.



The worm holes, and in places nearly rotted wood, and the contrasts in color make it interesting and fun to look at...  My original thought with a solid Cherry pair, made of only Cherry, was to keep it in the lower mid range of the price window.  I hadn't planed to use my own wood, but then I started thinking what the hell else am I going to do with it?  So now with all three  to look at, the cherry pair are probably going to be my favorite.

Also, I made an observation about the cherry, and that it that it was harder and heavier than I remember... and it has that glass sound when you strike it, a sound that you don't get from the plywood, so I'm expecting greatness.

This will be my fifth pair of baffles, and it took over twice as long as all the others because of all the piecing together and fussing around with what was left of the stash, which was all of the junk wood.

Tonight I made another pair of front feet because the pair in the picture are dark, and the other pair I made were too light.  Those really need to visually match - a matched quad if you will.

And last but not least I Zen'd my way to the handles, and found them in an unopened and unlabeled cardboard box. I did this on the way to the computer to order some handles... There were six pair in the box.

Happy listening!

Steve

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Showme
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Re: Steve's BIG BETSY Project
Reply #1055 - 11/15/19 at 03:40:11
 
Too nice!!!
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JOMAN
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Re: Steve's BIG BETSY Project
Reply #1056 - 11/15/19 at 12:11:25
 
This is SOOOO tempting...
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deucekazoo
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Re: Steve's BIG BETSY Project
Reply #1057 - 11/15/19 at 14:12:47
 
Steve,
That wood has beautiful character. I think all the work was worth it!
When you have something beautiful to look at and listen to, you have the best of both worlds, then throw in glowing tubes. Zen!
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Re: Steve's BIG BETSY Project
Reply #1058 - 11/16/19 at 00:21:44
 
I've been thinking.
What about a speaker with both the 15" and the 10" Lii drivers in it?
Best of both worlds? Speed and hit?
Just thinking........
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Re: Steve's BIG BETSY Project
Reply #1059 - 11/16/19 at 01:18:45
 
I keep wondering about the "new" model 15 Lii has. Is that the one with double magnets? Will it make the present model assume the same place as the older Crystal 10 flagship speaker. That is, to have 80 to 90% of the performance?
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Re: Steve's BIG BETSY Project
Reply #1060 - 11/16/19 at 02:35:14
 
Hey lazb,

It looks to me like the new Lii 15s are bass drivers. Rated to 5000 Hz and 91 Db, seems they were designed to fill in bass and integrate with full rangers like the Crystal 10, perhaps especially in a baffle design.

So, I am thinking they are likely great for that use, but not really comparable with the full range 15". Might be just the ticket for those talking about adding a 15 in a baffle with the Crystal 10s!
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will
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Re: Steve's BIG BETSY Project
Reply #1061 - 11/16/19 at 02:51:33
 
Looks like the completed 12" full range driver design is up now too! 42-18K, and 96 dB. Compelling!

https://www.lii-audio.com/index.php/product/2018-new-12-full-range-speaker-drive...

Edit: Sorry, got this wrong...Randy said he checked it out and sound-wise, this model was not quite up to the Lii Audio folks hopes, so not in production. Hope some day they will come up with a full range 12 they love!
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Steve Deckert
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Re: Steve's BIG BETSY Project
Reply #1062 - 11/16/19 at 04:11:14
 

Remember that a 2.83 volt rating often translates a couple dB lower than a 1w/1m rating.  The new 15 inch bass driver that was apparently designed to bring supplemental bass to the crystal 10 driver in an open baffle... certainly sounds interesting!

https://www.lii-audio.com/index.php/product/15-inch-woofer-1-pair-2pcs-for-bass-...

This would require a bi-amped system featuring a 2/6 watt Zen triode on the Crystal 10, and a 20/40 TORII on the W15 bass driver.  Of course with a bi-amped system you have basically a bass control by adjusting the volume of the larger amp driving the bass driver so a similar solution like the ZROCK2, but more potent and more expensive and much larger so naturally probably a little more fun.

I get such good tone and bass from the ZC10M with a ZROCK2 that I don't really need it.  If I added it, the size would have to get larger or have twice as many baffles, and if you're going to do that you wouldn't have been scared to death of getting the ZF15L because of its size...

That said as a reference system, my guess is that it outperforms the crystal 10 cabinet by offering a nice hit similar to the F15 but possibly a rounder tone that better matches the Crystal 10 signature.  I have (since they are often side-by-side) used the ZF15L with a 90Hz passive crossover to supplement the bass of the Crystal 10 baffle (ZC10M) and that is of course pretty over the top good...  Both can be driven by the same amplifier and the combo redefines fun... it is the best of both worlds.  

Where the W15 bi-amped system has the advantage is that the FS is 28 Hz vs. the 50Hz FS of the F15, but the advantage may not be heard unless the baffle is large.  So the hypothetical comparison is the 2 watt SET driving the ZC10M and ZF15L/90Hz crossed over in parallel, or the bi-amped system using the 2 watt amp on the ZC10M and the ZF15L/90Hz but using the W15 bass driver (ZW15L) driven by the TORII MK4... I would give the performance edge without hearing it, to the later.  It would be lower bass and more adjustable.  

BTW, when I say "hit" I don't necessarily just mean the chest thump of a kick drum, but the attack of the bow striking a bass cello with a startling forwardness that gets your stomach like a good amusement park ride! ... like it was real.

Going to take some time tomorrow to finish the second ZF15M cherry baffle and likely drag them into the listening room and install the pre-burned-in drivers and see what I hear, and if I'm lucky hear what I see! ; )

Steve 

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Randy in Caintuck
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Re: Steve's BIG BETSY Project
Reply #1063 - 11/16/19 at 06:24:00
 


Will wrote -

Quote:
Looks like the completed 12" full range driver design is up now too! 42-18K, and 96 dB. Compelling!


Hi Will,

If you notice, the info on this driver says "out of stock".
I told Leo at Lii Audio that I was VERY much interested in this driver for use in my speakers.

His reply was that the company (and chief designer) was not happy with the sound and performance of this driver. It is possible that there will be a replacement in the future, but this driver is not in production.

Best wishes,
Randy

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Re: Steve's BIG BETSY Project
Reply #1064 - 11/16/19 at 07:57:33
 
Steve,

Thanks for the heads up on the 2.83 volt rating often translating a few dB lower than 1w/1m. Interesting thoughts altogether, including your exciting report on 90 Hz crossover on your F-15 baffle in parallel with the Crystal 10s.

Lii Audio's statement about the W15 got my attention:

"With superb bass performance, this W-15 can bring good bass even on narrow open baffles. It has a transparent tone so can bring a good coherence with most of the full rangers or tweeters&midrangers."

This is part of why I was thinking this might be tempting to some here looking to mix a big woofer with the Crystal 10, while possibly allowing more shape/size flexibility as well. Purpose design by an apparently devoted and gifted designer, it would seem the woofers and Crystal 10s might still offer pretty nice performance using a Crown or plate amp for the woofer if a Torii were not possible ? ? ?

Looking forward to your impressions of the cherry baffles! This is exciting.


Randy,

I misinterpreted. First time going to the actual 12" driver page, I got all excited! Since the pictured 12" full range driver looked design-wise more like the F-15 and Crystal 10s than the pair Geno got, I just assumed it was a newer one, and not in production yet. My mistake and thanks for the clarification!
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Re: Steve's BIG BETSY Project
Reply #1065 - 11/16/19 at 12:41:13
 
Steve wrote:

My only regret is that during DECFEST no-one got to hear the ZC10M (Crystal 10 baffles) sound the way I am hearing them now, and that's because you have to know exactly what you're doing with the ZROCK2 to adjust it for speaker equalization...Basically it was miss-adjusted during the entire fest and constantly changed from one miss-adjustment to the next.

Hi Steve. My impression of the Zrock was that it was easy and intuitive to find the "proper" setting for each recording, but after reading the above I'm not so sure.

Would you please give a quick tutorial on how to properly choose the curve and set the level for the Zrock?

I know this question should probably asked in the Zrock thread but the above quote is taken from earlier in this thread.
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Re: Steve's BIG BETSY Project
Reply #1066 - 11/16/19 at 15:12:22
 
That W15 looks interesting. I wonder if that is $499 a pair or a piece? I would need 4 of them to put in my current baffles.
$2k in woofer drivers would probably go over like a turd in the punch bowl with my loving wife.
I guess it is back to the stripper pole for me to earn the extra money.
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Re: Steve's BIG BETSY Project
Reply #1067 - 11/16/19 at 15:43:27
 
According to their website, that price is for a pair, so WAF might not be that bad 😁
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Re: Steve's BIG BETSY Project
Reply #1068 - 11/17/19 at 01:34:17
 



Got the rest of my bolts today - correction they were 3-1/2 x 1/4 inch...  After assembly I'm setting the baffles in the sun to darken the lighter wood.




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Re: Steve's BIG BETSY Project
Reply #1069 - 11/17/19 at 01:37:01
 



Another sun shot ; )



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Re: Steve's BIG BETSY Project
Reply #1070 - 11/17/19 at 01:42:34
 



After removing the rear base and setting it on my table saw, it fell over onto the blade guard and fence putting about 6 nice dents in the wood!  So it is laying down soaking up some water to expand the wood back to where it was.  Even without the water, the dents just make it look more antiqued.  It's moments like this where I am so glad not to be making veneered cabinets.  Had this fall happened to a veneered speaker, it would have been game over... you'll never find the dents on this by tomorrow.



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Re: Steve's BIG BETSY Project
Reply #1071 - 11/17/19 at 01:44:31
 



Here's a shot of the whole front with some decent lighting in the shop today.  This is the second baffle.  The front feet (as well as the rear base) will darken a bunch in the next few days.  Just (re)made them yesterday.




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Re: Steve's BIG BETSY Project
Reply #1072 - 11/17/19 at 01:46:41
 



Here's a nice shot of the rear of the second baffle.  You can see how much it darkened from this morning when I took the previous picture.

Cherry is magic wood.





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Re: Steve's BIG BETSY Project
Reply #1073 - 11/17/19 at 01:48:04
 



A closeup of the rear base.



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Re: Steve's BIG BETSY Project
Reply #1074 - 11/17/19 at 01:49:43
 



In addition to the engraving in the front of each baffle, bronze badges will be inlaid in every Zen Master Series loudspeaker.

After a few days of sun I will bring them into my listening room and start the listening tests...

Steve




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Re: Steve's BIG BETSY Project
Reply #1075 - 11/17/19 at 02:19:05
 



Here is the cute little jewel that carves the dragon.  It weighs about 2 lbs.  Has a 20 watt solid state laser and can just sit on a surface and engrave or cut it.  To carve the dragon I have it on the lowest setting, 10%, which is 2 watts.  It's a Zen thing.

This is a practice run on a chunk of similar thickness cherry to make sure I get it right.  It actually took 4 tries to explore what what was going to work best in the way of settings.  One of those ways was filling the carving back in with pure white liquid plastic to create an inlay.  It worked great, but was nearly a half a day process....

Have a great weekend!

Steve
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Re: Steve's BIG BETSY Project
Reply #1076 - 11/17/19 at 02:42:22
 

Quote:
Hi Steve. My impression of the Zrock was that it was easy and intuitive to find the "proper" setting for each recording, but after reading the above I'm not so sure.

Would you please give a quick tutorial on how to properly choose the curve and set the level for the Zrock?

I know this question should probably asked in the Zrock thread but the above quote is taken from earlier in this thread.


The biggest problem during the fest was that the ZROCK2 was located in an adjacent room and located where you could not hear the direct sound from the speakers.  Because of this no one could hear the narrow sweet spot on either EQ setting where the highs are the loudest. Therefor they constantly had it set just before it and more often than not well after it, where things get dark and heavy.

This sweet spot is shown in the owners manual, and is easy to hear with either EQ setting when you are in the same room as the speakers.

Steve
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Reply #1077 - 11/17/19 at 06:41:51
 
Got it. Thank you!
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Reply #1078 - 11/17/19 at 18:04:09
 
Steve, you may know this trick already but if the dents don't readily come out with just the water (doubtful with the oil) try a damp cloth and a very hot iron to steam them out.  It won't scorch if you keep it wet and steaming.  Also, Cherry (and walnut, at least) darken in the sun but then they bleach.  My cherry cabinets that get sun are totally washed out whereas my cabinets in northern exposure areas are deep and dark.
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Re: Steve's BIG BETSY Project
Reply #1079 - 11/17/19 at 19:14:05
 



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Re: Steve's BIG BETSY Project
Reply #1080 - 11/17/19 at 19:59:29
 
Are the drivers centered in the baffles?  They look like a nice scale.


Edit:  I looked up the ZF15M plans and I see that the drivers are close to center but not quite.  Not as offset as in the full scale F15 baffles.
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Re: Steve's BIG BETSY Project
Reply #1081 - 11/17/19 at 20:37:47
 
Man are those nice! My favorites so far.
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Re: Steve's BIG BETSY Project
Reply #1082 - 11/18/19 at 01:45:14
 
Man, Steve! That is one baffeling picture! Looking good. Yes, looking very good.
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Re: Steve's BIG BETSY Project
Reply #1083 - 11/18/19 at 04:32:29
 
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Re: Steve's BIG BETSY Project
Reply #1084 - 11/18/19 at 05:03:32
 

Quote:
Are the drivers centered in the baffles?  They look like a nice scale.


Edit:  I looked up the ZF15M plans and I see that the drivers are close to center but not quite.  Not as offset as in the full scale F15 baffles.


Yes, 1 inch above center. It puts the F15 closer to the floor than the larger baffle, which helps support the bass response.  That is why the hit is virtually the same between the two size baffles.  The larger one has only slightly deeper base with a bigger scale to it, but you would expect as much.  You don't expect on the surface for them both to sound the same, and that's what's happening.

Steve

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Re: Steve's BIG BETSY Project
Reply #1085 - 11/18/19 at 19:26:02
 
I have been running the Crystal 10s with my Acoustic Elegance LO15s in my old baltic birch 1.5" baffles.  Crystals run off the UFO25 and the AEs off a 250W crown amp.  I probably don't need that much juice for the AEs but the crown also allows me to set the crossover point.

This is a very good combination.  

I am building a practice set of the mid sized betsy baffles and if I don't screw those up, I'll build a nice set out of hardwood.
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Re: Steve's BIG BETSY Project
Reply #1086 - 11/19/19 at 00:10:11
 
Hi Pal. You gonna put the Crystal and 15” AE in the Baffle you posted the drawing of a while back? That should look awesome and sound great. Look forward to seeing photos of that when you get them finished!
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Re: Steve's BIG BETSY Project
Reply #1087 - 11/19/19 at 00:41:07
 
That’s the plan Geno. I’ll get the practice baffles done over thanksgiving and the hardwood ones done over Christmas if all goes well.

I believe the clarity and revealing nature of the crystal 10s is well matched by the bass in the AEs.  Together they make for some engaging listening and worthy of a good baffle.  I usually don’t go to crazy on baffles because of their short lived nature but I think these will be around for a while.
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will
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Re: Steve's BIG BETSY Project
Reply #1088 - 11/19/19 at 01:53:20
 
Hey Pal and all,

I am hoping for more information on comparisons between F-15 drivers and Crystal 10s.

Do you think your coming Crystal/AE baffles might be as fun and engaging as your red oak F-15s? I have become so dependent on fine detail and space, that though many of you say the F-15 does not leave you wishing for more high information, I am a little concerned for myself, having worked for so many years to pull this fragile information fully and musically.

Front end is of course big time, and I have really worked mine over. And cables...lots of progressive iterations trying for that delicate balance of revealing, balanced and open transparency. And since I have finished my amp and CSP3 modifications (kind of rebuilt part/wire by part over several years)....there is a crazy amount of beauty that can be messed up by rolloff and/or low end slowness and thickness in my setup...for me anyway. But roll off from front end truncation, or from a wire or cap may feel quite different than that from these very fast and refined drivers.

With my HR-1s and MG 944s, both having tweeters that go high, I have had to do a fair bit of damping/tuning to tighten slower aspects of bass and mid-bass, making bass more impactful, while mitigating masking of mid, spacial and high information. Also I worked carefully on caps, resistors, and wires to pull fine textures and nuances more completely and musically. So both speakers are very fast, revealing, extended, a very real sounding spacious balance.

That said, I enjoyed listening to the stream of the big baffles, while finding the Crystal 10s a little hard and unbalanced during the times I tuned in. Especially the cabinet models, the accentuated/big slowish bottom not matching the speed of the mids and highs, I would not want what I heard. I did suspect pre stage involvement being a player, settings likely particularly sensitive with the Crystals, which Steve later corroborated. I don't have a Zrock but too much of any combination of stages I have could contribute to what I heard. And impressions from a stream, though with decent phones and amp, hard to believe it altogether!

I am loving my latest variation on HR-1's, but these big baffles get me going at times, thinking I may need to make some speakers....just fishing..... Wink
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Re: Steve's BIG BETSY Project
Reply #1089 - 11/19/19 at 02:04:47
 

Will, we haven't had anyone make a pair out of terra-cotta clay and fire it in the kiln yet...  just sayin.

Steve
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Re: Steve's BIG BETSY Project
Reply #1090 - 11/19/19 at 05:55:53
 
Smiley
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Re: Steve's BIG BETSY Project
Reply #1091 - 11/19/19 at 07:09:39
 
I own a pair of Randy’s Betsy baffles and love then.  Checking out the Lil Audio web sight I see that they have an 8” driver that they say would work well in an open baffle design.  I’m now wondering if swapping out the Betsy drivers for the Lil Audio drivers would be an improvement.  Any thoughts on this would be appreciated.  I’m using a SE84UFO2 to drive them.
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Re: Steve's BIG BETSY Project
Reply #1092 - 11/19/19 at 12:12:47
 
Will, I may try to write more when I have more time or send you an email but knowing your desire for detail I think the crystal 10s with bass augmentation would be a better route for you.  Are they as engaging as the F15 in the bigger baffles?  I don’t believe I can answer that question without putting the big baffles back in the system and listening again.  I will get to that this weekend I hope.
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Re: Steve's BIG BETSY Project
Reply #1093 - 11/19/19 at 14:43:20
 


Rich wrote .....

Quote:
I own a pair of Randy’s Betsy baffles and love then.  Checking out the Lil Audio web sight I see that they have an 8” driver that they say would work well in an open baffle design.  I’m now wondering if swapping out the Betsy drivers for the Lil Audio drivers would be an improvement.  Any thoughts on this would be appreciated.  I’m using a SE84UFO2 to drive them.


Hi Rich,

I offered some thoughts on the Lii Audio Fast-8 drivers in the Decware Betsy baffles forum.  The thread can be found here.

Best wishes,
Randy

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Re: Steve's BIG BETSY Project
Reply #1094 - 11/19/19 at 16:31:39
 
Thanks Pal. If you get a chance.
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Re: Steve's BIG BETSY Project
Reply #1095 - 11/19/19 at 16:41:01
 
Will,

This isn't exactly what you are asking for but, while I wish the F15s had more detail, what they offer in scale and "reality" more than compensates.  I don't have an extensive experience with live music but of what I do have, I don't ever remember wishing that there were more "detail" to the music.  I only became concerned with detail since the "live" experience with playback was lacking and not really attainable before I got the F15s.  I'm not tempted by the CR10s if I have to trade detail for scale.

But I haven't heard the CR10s either.
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Re: Steve's BIG BETSY Project
Reply #1096 - 11/19/19 at 20:33:10
 
Yes, I find it tricky to quantify what makes music at home feel real. Especially having heard the streams, I can imagine how accurately delivered scale, speed, hit and textural complexity with the F-15 big baffles could feel quite seductive and real...even without very top and very bottom information fully present. With these speakers, when all that is there is so exceptional, how much does full extension count?

Fine detail in open space seems very much there with the F-15s to me, delivering complex harmonics, textures and nuance with space and speed. Without noise and smearing creating subtle distortions as part of the music, and filling space that should be empty, seems that fast and musical delivery leaves room for a lot of subtle musical information. Purity of signal and clarity of transitions seem to be a lot of what can help a good setup shift from beautiful to “alive” feeling.

Considering this is covered, it seems to me that scale with resolution and complexity, and higher extension, both can contribute to a "live" feeling, and to consciousness falling into the music. Whether perceived as smooth but complex textures and speed in the mids; as fast bass definition with nuances; as complexity of a hard trumpet hit making it feel more exciting rather than scary....or as air and very subtle harmonic decays from ambient information.... Wherever it shows, I find fine detail can soften more rigid detail, quality resolution naturally spreading out whatever information is there into increased open space. I much prefer refined complexity to artfully softening detail by subtle masking or roll off, especially to get a “real” feeling musical experience at home.

I guess as I ramble I realize...with a good setup, fine detail and extension can be related, while also being two things.

At least from the Fest streams, I liked how the F-15 seemed so naturally open, complex and textured...less rigidly focussed than the Crystals. Though there were setting issues, the Crystals still appeared to be innately more focussed to me? When this results in hardness and even subtle saturation, I try to resolve it here. I couldn't tell for sure, but from what I heard at various feed times, the way they were being played, the intense focus mids up worried me. I also suspect those Crystal drivers keep getting more relaxed for hundreds of hours and more, and a feed being my only reference, I still feel a bit in the dark.

None-the-less, the rich tones of the F-15s/25th Zen from the stream implied to me that subtle, and pretty rare seeming harmonic complexities, are pretty easy for them...making them a relatively safe seeming bet for what I am after in that regard. But without being there and hearing a few familiar recordings, I just couldn't tell if I would be trying to subconsciously drag out upper extension I have become dependent on, and without success!

The questions become: In person, though needing bottom support, do the Crystals convey with a similar easy and textured complexity the F-15s offer, along with good upper extension, and without slowish bass contrasting with the fast mids and top? Does the lesser top extension of the F-15 matter? And, if it does (for me), could upper extension be pulled with the right tweeter setup. Conceptually, either supplementation using drivers complicates the beauty of a really good single driver, but does this appear possible to do seamlessly and without sacrifices?

I definitely don’t need another speaker, my sound having gotten crazy real and beautiful, but you all have certainly shown the baffle potential to be compelling!
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Re: Steve's BIG BETSY Project
Reply #1097 - 11/19/19 at 23:06:32
 
Thanks Randy for the link.  Since I prefer a warm sound over detail I will stick with the Betsy’s.
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Re: Steve's BIG BETSY Project
Reply #1098 - 11/19/19 at 23:57:42
 
The F15s comfortably go to 14 kHz+ and I don't find any lack in the bottom end.  I don't know how much the super high frequencies add especially considering I can't hear them.  But for some reason, the F15s (in the big baffles anyway) do what they do so well and so differnt I almost think they are a completely different experience and can't be compared in the usual way.

I too listened to the live stream of various speakers but the sound ultimately comes through whatever we were using and I don't think can convey the true experience.  It's sort of like the live vs playback problem all over again.

Since I built my own, my investment was relatively small and low risk.  If that's an option, I think it's worth the risk.  Again, I'm not addressing the CR10s vs the F15s.   But my prejudice at this point is that size matters.
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Re: Steve's BIG BETSY Project
Reply #1099 - 11/20/19 at 02:28:16
 
Makes sense Archie. The question of hearing you bring up is an interesting one to me, and mysterious. Clearly music, especially with the big baffle-like bass hit, is felt as much as heard. I feel sure this complexity of experience is the same across the spectrum, though less obvious. I really don't know how high or low I can "hear" at this point. But I feel relatively comfortable saying I can perceive variations from the lower and the higher information that I can't cognitively "hear," musical perceptions I equate with hearing, but that are actually more than hearing.

Also, I can easily imagine and understand that the experience of the big baffles is a special and individual experience with characteristics they particularly excel at. But what is the norm we evaluate from? In retrospect, this conversation made me realize I have never been fully satisfied with original cabinet speakers I have had from Decware, or any others I have had or heard. For me, this set up a long progression experimenting with modifications, trying to create more easy flow and speed, more natural sounding bass, deeper and more complete revelation...a more "live" and "real" musical experience. And one thing leading to another over years, I realized I could tune already great speakers more and more...one improvement potentiating more refinements. And the same with room, amps, sources, cables....one refinement opening doors to others.

Now, with this progression coming to some level of fruition/satisfaction, though based on the inadequacies of a stream and what we are using to hear the stream (wildly variable), a lot of what I thought I heard from the big baffles/25th Zen stream seems much closer to how my speakers, amps, etc have ended up than how they arrived here. I feel like I have had relatively captivating variations of a "live" experience for years. But it seems unlikely that it would have gotten as complete as it is becoming without pretty serious attention to modification/tuning. I have alway been and adjuster, so comparatively slow in buying new things, but at some point, rather than chasing gear to get satisfaction, I came to prefer learning to adjust or make what I had, for me, a pretty efficient way to find potential, and what I love.

That said, I get your points, and agree. The big baffles are clearly opening special doors in the musical experience. And had the Big Baffles and 25th Zen been my 1st Decware gear, with source, cables, room etc that are up to them, I suspect I would not have become so interested and involved with tuning/modification.

What a great trip this all is thanks to Steve, Bob and all on the forum!

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