Keep us posted Jeff. I remember Vyokyong's journey....we did some Stealth IC's too.

Steve made mention in the Development Thread/Reply #646:
"I will comment that the ZMA because of its giant caps already has a similar liquidity so I plan to re-examine the bypass caps in it and see if additional speed is desirable."

I certainly took note of this. I find the speed just fine. However, with your Obligato upgrade, "was it dramatic, no...but detectable nonetheless." ...has me thinking.

I had mine back to Steve last February (Meter's/Resistor's)...and when he gets around to seeing if he likes the improvement/re-examining the bypass caps...in the ZMA....I'll send mine to him for the upgrade.

Or, I will say this, if you like the improvement of your TubeCaps.....I'm doing it. $610 + labor of my local tech (Joe, modified my Adagio's with MCap Supremes). This will be a no brainer/since I am sticking with and only with, my ZMA and my stellar modified Adagio's.

You will need some burn in time....but keep us posted with delivery tomorrow and pic's if you don't mind, before you close her up. I would like to have for my tech.  

Having the option of sending to Steve or doing here will be nice. The shipping NAZI'S always scare me...even though she is in her Pelican Case.

Currently, the stock power capacitor compliment is (2) 4700uf ("Big Red") and (4) 47uF electrolytic capacitors.

Ill be replacing the large red 4700uF caps with two of the Mundorf MLytic HP+ capacitors.  The (4) stock 47uF electrolytic power caps will be replaced by the Mundorf TubeCap's (Film=Fast).  So, six caps in total, two big and fours small.  

I'm definitely eager to hear what this will do to the ZMA's speed.

Quote:


You betcha!  Ill send those over/post when I have them.  

And I'm with you on shipping.  Scares the hell out of me!  Pelican certainly helps but nothing helps more than simply NOT shipping and denying them an opportunity to play with gravity at the expense of our precious gear.

You bet, 6 + the 2 replacing the big red Mallory's.

What are the size dimensions of the HP+ Caps? I did not get a scale of them or see size dimensions.

Are you going to keep the big reds intact/disconnected and prop stable the Plate outside its base until you get a complete sense of the power supply speed mod?

JOA:  Wow! I wish you luck. And, I look forward to hearing all this goodness at your place one day soon!

Very cool 2nd System.

Yes, the clamp should tighten up on that 2.95".

Once again, excited about this. If it snaps the PRaT in better = sign me up.

Then, I'll get your vendor you purchased from, pics first of course, silver solder used, et al.

When I read Steve's mind thinking about this via bypass caps if more speed is desirable and then your post going the power caps speed route....it needs to be done one way or the other.

I respect the design of the Amp in the utmost too and only want to tackle the power cap area and path from 0A3.

However, we are at a point in its evolution of ownership to push on its masterpiece musicality for even more... . Whether through the Zen Master's conclusions when he reaches them; with what he suggested and will implement-if successful, and/or your experiment and its potentially successful outcome.

~Pending the Outcomes~
Furthermore, as we discussed, even though I hate having this family aireloom in music reproduction leave my home....I will send back to the Zen Master for one or the other or both enhancements. Both only, if he agree's. Or respectfully, I could have the one done here.

I look forward to this journey J of A. Let's roll.







Today....just back in.....running for the next 2 or 3 weeks:
~NOS Ediswan's for input's ~ NOS Telefunken's for inverter's ~ 6P3S-E quad & NOS RCA 0A3's
~Direct from ZDSD output transformer's (no Line Stage).




.......here is my order of Listening (keeping each scenario in one to two weeks at a time):


ZMA direct from ZDSD with Platinum Mullard pair (Cryo'd) 7308/E188CC ....as inputs/ZMA


ZMA direct from ZDSD with Platinum Ediswan pair (Cryo'd) CV2492/6922 ....as inputs/ZMA


Audio Research LS-2B/single Plat' Mullard 7308/E188CC (Cryo'd) to Plat' Tungsram pair PCC88/7DJ8 ...inputs/ZMA.




ZMA, updated with robust Western Electric Bias/Balance Meter's and new Resistor's ~ Feb/17





Listening Room:



Room Treatments from Michael Green & my Home Brew


Sony as Transport (DVP-NS57P)
Illuminati D-60 Digital Coax IC ~.5 meter


Shunyata Research Zitron Alpha Digital Power Cord to ZDSD {Significant}


Decware ZDSD DAC / Recorder
***************************************************************
W/Steve's Output Transformer's/kicking to the Curb quite a few superb DAC'S
***************************************************************
(@ -20 Ref Level, 0.0 Input volume and @ 16/192)


WBT RCA Kimber Select KS1030 ~.5 meter


Audio Research Stereo Line Stage Amplifier w/remote volume & mute LS-2B MkII
NOS Platinum/Mullard 7308/E188CC / Cryogenic


WBT-0102Ag RCA Kimber Select KS1030 ~.75 meter


Decware Zen Mystery Amplifier
~BIASED at *56* mA~
NOS/Platinum/Mullard E188CC/7308's in my A12 an B12 Input positions Cryogenic~NOS/Platinum/Telefunken 6922/E88CC for Inverter Tubes~NOS RCA 0A3's & matched Quad/Tung-Sol KT66's or 6P3S-E's

ZMA adjusted at  60-80% Gain ~ when ARC Line Stage is in, running via Remote Control



***************************************************
Kimber Select KS6063 Speaker Cable 8ft WBT-0681-Ag Spades
***************************************************
Kimber 8TC new/white & clear jacket/to remind me of how fluid/timbre correct and good the KS6063 are.....
Also Read.....the lowest noise floor you will ever witness....that a $5180 pair of speaker cables should have....and they do.....(I was fortunate to get them for $2680/Demo pair/mint, from the CableCo....worth every penny/extraordinary realism.....)



Acoustic Zen Adagio - Black Pearl (Modified)
.....enjoying from 8 ohm ZMA Taps


Caintuck Audio Eminence Alpha 15" OB BASS Unit
at 43Hz, with my Velodyne CHT 130 watt plate amp and 0 degree phase.....at 1/8th volume on plate
Plate Amp....regen'd clean ~ plugged into P3
Auralex Subdude (a must)
(NOTE: Only needed when the recording calls for...Open Baffle Bass has been the best integration I have witnessed when needed and called on)







Acoustic Zen Adagio's x-over's Modified/Full Range with Mundorf MCap Supremes-single Cap to each Tweeter/4.5k cross
(Gutted: 3kHz/18dB/Octave, Linkwitz/Riley Crossovers....with all crappy parts = gone)


XLO Pro Power Cord to ZMA
XLO Pro Power Cord to Audio Research LS-2B MkII
Shunyata Research Zitron Alpha Digital Power Cord to ZDSD {Significant}
PS Audio P3 Power Plant / Pangea AC-9SE from wall to P3
(Transport, ARC Line Stage and ZDSD, Regenerated/*120*~ Multiwave off...ZMA on High Current Output)
System configured on Floor ~ Townshend Audio CD Seismic Sink deployed & other Isolation devices.


~NOS Platinum Tubes from Upscale Audio/Kevin:

(Great Britain) Mullard 7308/E188CC ~  2 pair (both pair Cryogenic)
(Germany) Telefunken 6922/E88CC ~ 1 pair (painfully expensive/worth it)
(US/Great Britain) Ediswan CV2492/6922 ~ 2 pair (one pair Cryogenic)
(Hungary) Tungsram 6922/E88CC ~ 1 pair
(Hungary) Tungsram PCC88/7DJ8 ~ 1 pair

(Russia) 6N23P's ~ 2 pair/came with ZMA.    

Well put: "We're not touching the signal path.  We're just souping up the engine, ....."  "retaining its aural greatness"

...and yes, maybe a Unicorn of augmentation too.

...it does make sense to me as well....to go this path, first. I really don't want to touch the aural greatness...unless Steve is just gobsmacked when he tries HIS TOPOLOGY of bypass caps?! We know darn well, he is working his genius on the new Single Ended Amps.

I look forward to those pic's tonight/square one.

For sure. These Mundorf’s run $242 a piece. So $500 a pair with shipping. I’m sure Steve can go direct and order cheaper. All depends on his markup requirement as to what it would cost us. But let’s see if these dang things even make a difference first.  

The stock caps all cost something so the addition wouldn't be the full freight.  Steve seems open to cap upgrades soo ...

I remember in a thread Steve saying that the ZMA transformers were already ultra linear and that he liked the amp as is so UFO wasn't in the cards for the ZMA.

It will be interesting to hear what the new caps might do.  I think it is Will or Mark we have to thank for pioneering beeswax caps in the ZP3, which I got despite them not being an "option" on the order page.

Nice Jeff! Looking forward to your impressions!

I was inspired by Vyokyong too, but didn’t start making it real until the summer of 2016, starting by replacing my Torii MKIV Jupiter HTs with Jupiter Coppers. This followed with many months of changes. Though a different amp, I hope my experiences might help in your path.

Comfortable with soldering, I could let changes settle to better hear what was happening with each before more. I really like this for learning and understanding, but it has created a protracted process!

After several months of Jupiter burnin, having a bunch of small value caps around from speaker cap bypass experiments, I started exploring bypassing power supply caps. In the Torii, though now using total values of 0.15 uF to 0.33 uF bypasses on each of the original 47 uF electrolytics, even a 0.1 uF cap (1/470th value) clearly shows the character and influence of the bypass used. In my amps, the sound improvement potential seems as much or more from power supply bypasses as from coupling caps!

So, in the Torii and CSP3 anyway, the power supply may as well be called the signal path. Maybe the giant caps in the ZMA have such a powerful influence that bypasses are not as clear there? I don't know the tech, but here power supply bypasses sound fully interactive with the signal, rather than linear, like the motor analogy.

As I explored I realized I could keep Steve’s basic voice, but progressively refine it. I also learned I could subtly tune that voice, solving something I was always able to adjust to, but that was an inherent issue for me with the MKIV. Especially with louder playback, I heard it as signal compression/saturation that was a bit over the top for me...perhaps an aspect of how the signature portrayed "density?" So, as I went, I kept in mind pushing the signal a little less while creating easier flow.

By late January last year, I had a beautiful power supply balance, but being so fun, I continue tuning even now. I could easily have stopped back then, having reached a great place that was hard to beat, but then I broke through, and it is the best ever!

Doing the CSP3 along with the Torii, the Torii’s five power supply caps per channel now have 8 bypasses, only Jupiter HTs used twice...and the CSP3, 2 different power bypasses, and bypasses on the Jupiter HT coupling caps. Mixing and matching remains fun, fine-tuning value and types to refine tone, timbre, texture, speed, flow, macro dynamics, etc. The balance of qualities of each cap in the whole really has to be right with the others, but best I can tell, if balanced, using a variety of complimentary caps adds pretty amazing potential for natural musical complexity, also making all recordings more enjoyable.

Though the Torii was quite fast with the right tubes, cables, etc, I like it being a little faster as long as the tonal balance is rich and full enough to carry the speed. Also carrying each electrolytic a bit further in value with better caps can create greater definition that resolves congestion. But too far, rather than improving complex passages, it begins to dissect the signal too much and make it too forward.

The Torii power supply has a 3.3 film cap related to the input tube circuit along with four electrolytics per channel. I started replacing the 3.3 with a Mundorf Supreme I had used for my speakers. With a clearer/faster bypass, it did all the right things, but I kept hearing a compressed thickness that was unnerving, the cap sounding intellectually correct, but not naturally so. I heard this same thing with Mundorf Supreme Silver Oil as speaker bypasses.

The 3.3 Supreme with a 0.1 Jupiter HT bypassing it in the Torii was quite good though....the HT's spacious texture and “sparkle” really bringing it out. But in this prominent position, I still heard a bit of that Supreme “thing.” Wanting to explore more caps, I replaced it with a Jantzen Silver Z cap. Being clearer/more transparent than the Mundorf, the Jupiter bypass was too much, so I traded it for a 0.1 Audyn True Copper Max. The Audyn was slightly warm in a more neutral and less characterful way, less "sizzly" while still having good balance, harmonics, definition, and textures. Nice.

Though I found Obligatos compelling, I could not make them work...too clear and hard on too much music, even when carefully tuned with more textured and spacious caps with better fine detail.

Like you, I also replaced connectors….IECs with fused Furutechs, Rhodium in the Torii and gold in the CSP3, WBT nextgen copper/gold RCAs all around, Cardas silver plated copper with a rhodium flash binding posts, TDK 2511 potentiometers, all notable individually and collectively.

I also replaced a few strategic resistors in the Torii to chill the signal intensity and open things a bit, and for the same reason, replaced 0.1 Jupiter Copper coupling caps with 0.082 Miflex Coppers, hoping reducing the value a bit might subtly tone down signal intensity/saturation. I liked the Miflex right off... rich and complex, but with a bit more definition. However, they were new. Burned in now, I need to compare the Jupiter Coppers directly and see who wins, but the Miflex are so good that comparison is not a priority. The flow has become easier, less pressurized from these changes, but I think equally, from using more transparent and faster connectors and potentiometers all around.

Anyway, I considered using Clarity TCs, or the Mundorf Films you chose to replace electrolytics, but the sound was so amazing from bypassing with film in the Torii and CSP3, I never went there. The tonal complexity from mixing decent bypasses is difficult to balance, but can be very, very good...perhaps an area to explore one day if you get an urge after burnin...good bypasses on the Mundorfs???

I talked with Steve a few times in this process, and he said he would not mess with the wires, but this is hard for me, having explored making cables a lot, and finding the wire used super influential. Knowing I could put the Mogami back in, I had been thinking of doing a similar thing Steve did for you, in my case, using Dave Cahoon’s (Zenwave Audio) Neotech silver/gold, or Neotech UPOCC silver, or a combination for signal wires, and making the shield with Neotech UPOCC Litz. Maybe next!

But, speaking of wires, my amp work is on hold for now, in the midst of serious IC exploration using different high quality wires, connectors, geometry, damping, etc…..amazing sound! Also demanding attention is integrating a Mac Mini server I have had, but that was transformed by an Operating System developed by Eric Hider (Tranquility DAC), and fast memory ...As I learn it, it appears to be truly amazing, blowing any idea of “just 1s and 0s” so far out of the water it is absurd.

Over 200,000 lines of Mac OS code removed, the 1s and 0s getting to the DAC appear to have seriously transformed my previously extremely good front end. I thought I had a good handle on digital, Decware tube implementation helping. But this sounds like a different level altogether, like a real blend of the good things of tape, and the good things of digital, and all this improvement created before the DAC!!! A lot like modifying Steve’s amps, the basic character can remain close, but refining the signal in all areas of subtle to very subtle qualities can create a vast change in facilitating musical immersion! It blows my mind, every change that stands up to careful listening making the sound the best ever.....and then it gets better, and better, and better...

I think this indicates how really good stuff has potential beyond itself. Like how good Decware amps are to begin with, but also, how much they can be refined with thoughtful and careful tuning that is verified by serious listening! Or how upgrading with a quality system component or cable can make other very good system/room components way better!



Archie, cant recall exactly, but I thought Steve was in on the development of Jupiter beeswax caps???

Awesome Jeff. .....look forward to seeing them soldered in with pics and you get to fire it up.

No doubt Will. Your dedication and understanding is an informative read.

Archie, you're right, I do remember Steve stating the output tranny's with the ZMA are all that' and he is happy with them and their output. I would not want to have those replaced, due to cost.

Jeff, thanks for bringing your goal into focus and sharing it with us. As you stated if it works....it will be an affordable enhancement that will be so stellar for our ZMA's. If not? Steve pursuing his bypassing and sending to him will be my decision too.

Jeff,

I think your direction makes perfect sense. I almost bought the Tubecaps a few times, and the Clarity TCs (their interpretation of the same idea) a few more times, so I understand. Though painful, I think I would have to put in the Tubecaps first for some months of heavy play...to identify specifically what role they play in the new sound. Then, add the MLytic HP+s once the qualities of the Tubecaps are clear, giving a chance to see exactly how the HP+ compare with the Mallorys.

When I tried to read about bypassing, as usual, there were all sorts of opinions...bypassing presented as irrelevant, wrong, questionable, occasionally useful, and some liking it, but not being very clear in presenting why. I probably stopped looking too soon, but I could find very little useful, so just dug in.

I quickly found bypassing for fine-tuning speaker sound powerful. I think of decent bypasses as sound quality adjusting tools. When it works, the higher quality bypass cap seriously improves the other by adding its special character to the sound, including, but not limited to speed, integrating all aspects of its fine detail information and tonal qualities. Not always a good fit, and maybe I am lucky, but in most cases, using nice caps, the bypass cap can transform the one being bypassed, mixing the two cap's sonic traits.

This seems particularly powerful in the power supplies of my amps. For example, the electrolytic related to the input circuit (as best I can tell) in the Torii, for quite a while I bypassed with a .22 Mundorf ZN I had around (pretty neutral and nice for this) livened up by a .1 Jupiter HT. The characters of both bypasses were pretty balanced and obvious to me, literally mixing their traits. More recently, to recheck myself, I was running just the HT in that position, and it was lower key and nice in combination with bypasses I had in other positions. But I wanted more bite, clarity, and body. Adding value with decent caps punches things up and clarifies in the Torii or CSP power supply, but also I wanted to add a little definition to the bottom of the Jupiter and some body, while making its complex texture and highs less feathery, and also more complex. A more neutral, dynamic, and balanced Rike S-2 has nice body, definition, and texture, with a little less top-top. Putting these two caps together, both 0.1 uf, was like making a new cap that seems just right, combining the best of both, and making a cap you likely can't buy, but can create....very cool. For me, this combining of caps with complimentary traits, both two bypasses together, and spread around in different parts of the power supply, has been an enlightening tuning tool.

Bringing me to my thought about possibly bypassing the Tubecaps...They may be just right, but lets say they are really beautiful while being a little dark, and maybe you want a touch more speed, clarity and texture. I suspect if you then added a pretty solid, open and textured bypass, you may be able to bring this hypothetical Tubecap to a more complete level of sonic balance and excitement. And if you mix a few complimentary caps appropriate to what is needed, the added complexity of two might be even better....I agree though, it is ultimately trial and error. But with the right caps, and a little luck...can be somewhat seamless also.

This is what I have been having fun with.

Sounds good! If the film caps (Tubecaps) have a sound you love, changing to film may well do all you want!

In the middle of all this great tech conversation, would you mind if I ask how we define "speed?"  What is it exactly?  Based on your experiences from ZMA and TORII, I might start looking into my SE84UFO and TABOO mkIII and consider some cap upgrades!

Great question Alper and I think Will answered it most eloquently. Make no mistake, the ZMA is special and I would not be in my 5th year with her, if she was not. The liquidity is off the charts with POWER. However, a little more geddy-up can be had. I would not call things slow or to lush.....having the long experience and sonic memory of my SE84CS and SuperZen CKC.....and the fact that I believe these enhancements for the ZMA (one or the other or both)....can match Decware Single Ended Speed. The Torii JR. has it....so we are going to damn well match that in the ZMA!

From Will & then Jeff (my quote button does not work):
"I suspect if you then added a pretty solid, open and textured bypass, you may be able to bring this hypothetical Tubecap to a more complete level of sonic balance and excitement.


Great advice and I will certainly keep this in mind once these Mundorf's are in place, burned in, and fully understood."

....................................Exactamondo.  


Hoping the Zen Master chimes in with a timeline of when he will tackle his bypass experiment/potential enhancement adjustment to the ZMA.

I'm doing one or the other (or both) as time will tell. For me personally, I've decided, Steve is the only one opening my ZMA up for surgery.....despite the fact that my Pelican Case (prestine-when it first came 01/22/2014)/housing my ZMA, .....then, subsequently, from only 7 hours to Peoria and 7 back....now looks like it went around the world twice (when I sent it to Decware last February for Meter & Resistor enhancements).
I might drive it to Steve by appointment.

Can I live with her the way she is? Most certainly....great Amp. Plus, it ain't gonna be cheap, to do one or the other or both enhancements. I suppose one or the other is not to bad... .

Anyway, I'm glad this came to light:
~I started thinking about it with Steve's posted developments about the new Amps...bypasses in the fuel line
~Palomino made reference to the speed of LR's little puppy vs. the ZMA
~Steve made reference to it.....if more speed is desired (ZMA) and he will investigate....cause the Jr. has zip
~Then Jeff, harkened back to Vyokyong's Thread, in which I read again and I was curious way back then about enhancing my ZMA.

nough' said ~ fun stuff indeed.

Will, Stone,

Thanks for the definitions...  Now we are on the same page!  :)

Cheers,

Alper

Still waiting on one pair of the 47uF TubeCaps.  

Then I need to get in line with my audio tech.  He quoted me a 2 week wait time a few days ago  :-/

But maybe ill get lucky and he will be able to take it right away - this coming week - when I expect to have the parts that I need.  

Once my ZMA is away getting outfitted with the new caps, I am sending my Ultra pre-amp in  to Decware to have Steve upgrade it with new Type II caps.   But in doing so, he will need to do some re-engineering.  He expected it to be twice as resolute.  I’m pretty excited about that.  It is such a great and versatile pre-amp.  

Ill let you know as things progress with the ZMA.

Happy Sunday!

Jeff, I hope your guy is not too busy when your caps come!

Also, getting the Ultra tuned up and caps burned in, it will be cool to see how that improves everything else!

Here, working on the CSP3 and Torii together, improvements to one clearly refine the other.

Working to retain qualities that Steve carefully created, though all the mods that worked well with my amps refined everything, I found that musically balanced bypasses most influenced the qualities of speed, clarity, density, flow, etc....refining musical potential and resolving congestion. When right, this can transform the electrolytics, while retaining what they offer.

But with the caps I am using in my amps, in excess, bypasses can cause these same traits that make the music realer to begin to "dissect" the signal. This is related in part to excess value (too much of a good thing), but also on cap traits. More resolving, spacious, textured and dynamic caps with a slightly lower value can be more influential than duller caps with a slightly higher value. Or hard sounding caps of one value can blow the sound out, while more complete and complex ones of the same value can sweeten the sound.

This is what I was talking about in terms of whether you love the sound of the Tubecaps...Changing to film may do a lot of what you want, but will also impart the signature of that cap. All good if it feels right, but if not quite right, bypasses may help for fine-tuning.

I find that as resolution in quieter space increases, specific cap traits and how they compliment one another in the whole becomes even more critical.

For example, a bypass or coupling cap can clarify aspects of the signal, but if hard, also impart hardness. And being a particularly defeating trait for most of us as we try and bring our system/rooms into greater completeness, solving hardness to me is a primary consideration in tuning. The solution I seek is to better resolve fine detail and space, and associated, finer resolution, textures, ambient information, and tonal complexity. This can expand and make more complex the concentration of edge information that contributes to hardness. By more clearly and musically differentiating "the particles" that once created a harder edge, edge concentration can become textured, ambient, more natural. At the same time, finer detail brought out in balance, every other aspect of the signal can become more complex and seductive.

I think I started noticing this with tubes. To make "bright/hard/lean" recordings more listenable, most tend to choose "more forgiving" tubes. But I have found that a good balance of more resolving tubes, textured and spacious, with natural sounding smoothness and a touch of warmth, can help solve edge hardness without losing anything. This is a little counter intuitive if the assumption is that hardness is "too much detail." But if a tube set has good musical balance, and is more resolving, more fine detail and space can feather edges by integrating the edge with ambience, textures and air, better bringing out what comes before and after the once harder edge with more complex beauty. At the same time, edges now less dominant in perception, clearer space and greater resolution can also make attacks, textures and decays faster and more present, enhancing musical pleasure.

I think this is the same with caps, but caps, being earlier in the signal, if the cap compliment is musically more resolving, everything before and after benefits...from source, to cables and tubes, to speakers. By enhancing subtler detail and space, along with everything else that makes music beautiful before the tubes, the tubes get better. Equally, more musically resolved with balance and complexity, lesser recordings can become enjoyable.

But nothing is in isolation, reminding me of that old source truth. Whether a great source that is carefully set up to be fully resolving, or one that sounds balanced, but that can't bring out the fragile and nuanced information that makes music sound more real.....Either way it is pretty easy to forget how critical source is.  

Fine information not there to begin with, and worse, fine information transformed to not-so-good qualities like electronic and digital noise, glare, rigidity, smearing, muddle.....potential for deeper levels of improvements are seriously compromised.

And even with a very good source, if everything along the way does not protect and preserve the more fragile aspects of music the source offers, these sorts of amp refinements could be much less noticeable, refined, and beneficial. Whereas, if we can avoid damage to subtler information in emptier space, increasing resolution, ambient character and complexity, textures, air, finer definition, and all this while retaining tonal beauty and balance.....modifications can be quite obvious….for better or worse...but being able to hear them more clearly, hopefully more easily refined.

Eric Hider of DbAudioLabs gave me what I think of as a pretty priceless tool when I first got his Tranquility DAC...Listening for the qualities and completeness of decay as a simple indicator of the health of subtle aspects of the sound.

If it is there in the source, by setting a system/room up to carefully bring out the fragile qualities of decay, the rest of the signal will also benefit from clearer space and finer detail complexity. Then, reading decay alone while evaluating a change, be it cables, feet, settings, power caps, speakers....can help preserve the subtitles needed for authentic musical presentation throughout.

This has proven true for me countless times, fine detail in space improvements progressively creating a more resolving and revealing baseline that makes further changes more clear. It seems pretty solid historically for me, that if a change allows or enhances relatively complete natural complexity of fine detail and spaciousness, without compromising other musical qualities and balance, all aspects of the music can improve. This does not rule out adjusting for other qualities and balances, but it can help keep those qualities more refined and true. For me, these are really good things to keep in mind for evaluating system tuning.

For sure LR!  One thing I have learned is everything we do comes with a risk. I have also learned that every situation is unique, and until you put your c@$& on the block and just do it, you will never really know if success or failure awaits.

For me, the risk is low. If it doesn’t work, it’s such an easy switch back to stock. I can probably sell the Mundorfs on the used market but if not, I’m not too worried about it.  If it was an irreversible modification, I would sucritinize the decision much more. But it’s not.

Worst case is I return it to stock and if Steve’s adventure in power cap bypassing is a success, then back to Decware she will go. If that too leads to failure, then I will continue to enjoy the incredible awesomeness this amp spews in its original format.

We shall see....

aaaaaand....     I would not be attempting this with “standard” design film caps (regardless or quality) that are not designed to act alone as power capacitors.  Based on my findings, there are only two manufacturers creating high value film capacitors purpose-built as alternative (direct replacement) power capacitors - Mundorf being one of them.  And, by default, I have to assume the engineers at Mundorf understand the differences between film and electrolytic when designing capacitors with a power role as the primary assignment.  These are 47uF film capacitors rated at 600 volts!  Very A-typical.  Because this is a tit-for-tat direct replacement of the four stock electrolytics (4 out, 4 in), I’m less concerned about them being high-end or boutique, and most interested in their unique design and ability to execute a task for which film capacitors are categorically not designed to do.  

This will not quite be the same as taking a bunch of low farad rated film capacitors (not designed to act alone as power capacitors) and placing them in the same role as the stock electrolytics.  I understand films role in power bypassing.  These relatively large (47uF) film caps were birthed to act as, not in addition to, film capacitors in the power chain. So, definitely a different animal here.  

I fully understand that even though this looks great on paper, it could end up being an utter disaster.  I accepted the risk of a total investment loss in these new caps.  But, I also believe that these Mundorf TubeCaps have not been used in this role in a Decware ZMA (or possibly any Zen amp model) prior, which means until it is done we can only speculate on the results.  I will certainly share for anyone interested.  

Bottom line, it really is just a fun little experiment and I won’t get my feelings hurt if this side project tanks.  :)  

I certainly appreciate the words of caution LR.  Once they are installed and fully burned in, I will objectively listen.  If I get anything resembling the undesirable side affects you mentioned, then I will humbly abort and put that curiosity to bed.   I won’t get mad if you tell me, “I told you so!”  ;)

PS:  I think I would attempt to keep the large electrolytics (MLtyic HP+) in place and remove the TubeCaps if the sound is not to my liking.  Electrolytics have a life span.  It is based on time and temperature.  As the cap degrades over time, its performance changes and eventually they will need to be replaced.  No ZMA is immune.  I don’t have the specs on the large red Mallorys, but the Kemet’s have a 20,000 hour lifespan at 85C.  
Depending on your listening habits, that may be a very long time, but not forever.  And its performance over that 20,000 will inevitably change, but when it becomes audible is the question.  

Hi Jeff,

figured I would take a temperature check and find out if you had things solder slinged in yet? Maybe, burning in right now too?

Re-read your post #45, from 2/28 and got excited about this experiment once again!

Those: "film caps were birthed to act as, not in addition to, film capacitors in the power chain. So, definitely a different animal here."


....just kickin it, this afternoon with my Caintuck design 15" Alpha OB & modified Adagio's.......ZMA of course.

Great Jeff! ......look forward to more to come.

Nice!

Fully understand Stone.  And to be quite frank, I don’t think I would recommend it for your ZMA - or any ZMA still under warranty.  This has nothing to do with the mod itself, and everything to do with voiding your lifetime warranty, and preventing any future upgrades Steve designs for this amp.

That being said, I am pretty astounded by what my amp is doing with these caps.  The bass improvement is pretty shocking.  I would say the density of the sound improvement overall is immediately noticeable.  But the mid-bass and bass improvement is undeniable in my opinion.  It is ballsier, tighter and more dynamic.  As a matter of fact, I had a frightening moment when I first fired up the ZMA with the new mod.  The bass sounded awful.  If was bloated and overstated.  My stomach sank as I was certain I turned my beloved ZMA into a paper weight.  Luckily, only after a few minutes of agony, I realized I had the ZROCK engaged.  I switched the ZROCK to bypass and the sound became glorious.  

I have over 50 hours on the amp and what I have determined is, with these new caps the ZMA is capable of leaching out every drop of goodness from solid recordings in a way it was not able to prior.  This is true to the extent that with great recordings, the ZROCK generally make the ZMA sound worse.  However, bad recording on the ZMA sound really bad - moreso than before the mod.  And with bad recordings, the ZROCK is invaluable.  I will essentially be using the ZROCK as it was originally intended, that is “as needed” rather than all of the time.  The ZMA is just too transparent to be able to use it on most well recorded material.  

From my tour of reference material, the imaging is better, both front to back, and side to side. In my system, I always felt the Torii MKIV had the edge on the ZMA in this department.  Not anymore!  Instrument separation is vastly improved.  I have purposely been throwing some incrediblly dynamic material with extreme transient demand and this amp has not faultered.  It is damn impressive!  And not just in the lower frequencies.  The highs sparkle.  The detail in this frequency range is even more revealing and transparent.  

So far, with respect to the SPEED I was intending, and hoping to improve....    I don’t believe anyone with a ZMA would argue that that amp hasn’t transcended in this regard.  

Ive got  KT88’s back in.  

One other thing that has become apparent with late night listening is the amp is more detailed at lower volumes.  I still like to crank the amp up when disturbing the sleep of others in not a concern.  But at night when I have to keep the volume lower, the perceived detail and complexity of the music is improved with these new caps.

Great news Jeff!

I read ya HK. I can't justify another amp in my Listening Room. I have grad presents to dole out to my deserving daughter (High School) and Son (Stanford).

However, as Jeff stated about my warranty and I want the creator to do it - if he see's fit for it and not placebo, in our ZMA's. I look forward to reading about the 25th and the Mono's 325. I can wait till Steve explores the ZMA and at 1k or so for the deemed enhancement - I agree.

.....and from reading Jeff's most recent post....I doubt it is placebo. Jeff's ears on Reel to Reel with our ZMA and the Tape Tour.... I had in my Room....I look forward.....this ZMA of ours.....Special.

I think the balanced inputs would be a great feature on your ZMA Stone.  I do remember Steve discussing the superiority of the balanced inputs on the ZMA when he connected his Otari tape machine while voice the amp.  It would be an absolute worthwhile investment I am sure.  I did consider it at one point, particularly when I sent it back last the have the laundry list of upgrade parts installed.  But with my Ultra being unbalanced, I could not figure out a way I could practically use the balanced inputs the way my system is laid out.  Turned out fine as Steve used the balanced input holes to mount the WBT RCA input jacks.  

With your balanced outputs on your other sources, it will be a hoot to tinker with the various characters each one will present through the ZMA.  Fun stuff!

And nice to read Steve’s journey as he discovers more applications for the 25th Anniversary mod.  I feel there are several looking for that level of improvement on their higher wattage Decware amps.  And as I stated prior, I know he will find a suitable solution for this ZMA.  For the sake of your enjoyement, may that come sooner rather than later!  ;)

Until then, keep on, keepin’ on.

Jeff, yes, ...when at Decware, I think it will be a nice addition/option/XLR inputs~for my balanced outputs from other sources, to have in my ZMA.

Arch, I was fortunate to get the KS6063 to go with my KS1030 when I did. I sold a bunch of stuff/audio related in 2015 and Joe, at the Cable Co. knew I had KS3033 for 15 years in my System and I also owned from Joe the KS3035. He had a mint/demo pair of the 6063's I could not refuse to try (and at the price we settled on). After a comparison of my 3033 vs. my 3035 vs. the 6063....KS6063 won! Incredible combination; the KS1030 & KS6063's with my Decware. I'm spoiled, ...and anything else I try falls short.

Yeah LR, those big Mundorf Mylitics are pretty amazing caps, but I can't say that those alone would do the trick - only because I didn't do my modification in stages.  The (6) .47uF TubeCaps are even more impressive than the Mylitic's from an engineering perspective, in my opinion.  

However, Steve may not have a problem with the large Mylitic's in place when doing his mod, as they are electrolytic and while much better performers than stock, not a huge departure in topology.  

I can't tell you how happy I am with the outcome of this power chain mod on my ZMA.  Dollar-for-dollar, the best addition/change in the amplification department, aside from purchasing the ZMA in the first place.  

But like I told Stone, with Steve intent on reworking this area of the ZMA, I can't say it makes sense to invest make any moves at this point.  Although, I still think that replacing the stock large caps with the Mylitics might still offer improvements, giving Steve even a stronger base to start with on your amp.

Got my ZMA back from the shop on Monday.  Replaced the (4) 330K signal path resistors with Shinkoh tantalum non-magnetic resistors as well as the the (2) 100K and (2) 82K plate resistors with Audio Note tantalum non-magnetics.  Finally, I replaced the 330ohm output tube grid resistors with 2W versions of the Audio Note tantalums.  

Been burning all of these babies in with all of my usual reference/test material since I got her back Monday afternoon  

Pics of the 2W resistors, before and after...

Happy to say that what I considered darkness has mostly transformed into dynamic and speedy body with nice frequency range and rich detail complexity. Now with ~35-40 hours on the least burnt in of these resistors, roughly 55-60 on the Amtrans Carbons, and over 75 on the Mills, this combination is becoming quite nice indeed. I still hear a little darkish dullness in the bass/mid-bass, but feel pretty sure this is from remaining lack of burnin. Likely the Amtrans (which seem to need the most burnin) and the Caddocks, judging from how they sounded initially, are finally resolving. Now my guess is that the initial "pushy" quality of the Caddock is transforming into more spacious dynamics and speed with nice density, and I wonder how colored I would find the Amtrans individually at this point? Likely still warm, but maybe not over the top for me. Don't know, but they are doing nice things together now with quite nice warmth including excellent fine detail. I guess I am hearing the Jenson electros in the Torii too, resolving bass seeming to be more noticeably slow during burnin.

But what I am hearing implies that resistors can fit with your thread title, "An Exercise in SPEED." And why not. If they do their thing with less flow damage...by comparison, with better materials, design and implementation, resistors could have better signal flow, complexity, and frequency response. Even with the same resistor, there seem to be a number of folks who think bigger ones, with more of all they are made of, can sound better. I suspect this is a reason you tried some 2 watts, and one reason I did. More listening needed, but I feel confident saying my CSP3 is a bit faster and more dynamic, clearer and more complete/complex with this resistor combo. I am also pretty confident now they will become more transparent, tighter, and reveal more complexity with more hours on them.

Speculation as I am not doing AB tests with burnt in resistors, but based upon initial impressions of each resistor and the combination, and how the whole sounds now, I am guessing they are like caps... depending on what they are made of and how they are made, some resistors just take longer to reveal potential.

Actually, I am staying put with these Shinkoh and Audio Note tantalums for the time being.  They are just doing it for me at the moment and I need more time with them.  

Today I solved an annoying issue I was having with a subtle ground loop after the 4-pole rewire of my Mlytic caps.  It was not affecting the noise floor, but rather adding some content volume, low level "buzz."  Now that it is gone, my listening experience has just ramped up another notch.  It was really only bothering me a really low listening volumes as it was so subtle it was inaudible at moderate volume levels, but I knew it was there and my OCD wouldn't let me just forget about it.  

These tantalum resistors are impressive so far.  Need more time to fully burn 'em in though.  

I posted this in another thread but feel it is relative to this thread, which was the beginning of my ZMA modification journey....  

With much needed influence from Wil and BonnyA, last week I decided to finish the enhancement project and move forward with power supply bypass caps.  I have the amazing 47uF Mundorf TubeCaps installed and wanted to follow Steve's lead and further bypass those caps.  I used the same values as BonnyA, .47uF and .1uF caps.  Due to the size of the TubeCaps, I wasn't sure I could find room for these bypass caps. It was close.  There was one space left on each side where they fit like a glove.  it took a little Tetrus skill but I found a great spot.  

The bypassing has further enhanced the high frequency detail and speed, as well as another slight step in lowering the noise floor.  These bypass caps made a noticeable improvement and they are not even close to burning in (the caps I used came with a 350 hour burn in recommendation).  

All in all, time and money well spent!  ...the icing on the cake  :)

Steve,
Yes, typo on my part.  Thanks for clarifying that.  Luckily I purchased the 330 Ohm resistors, not 330K