Bluemage said,

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No need Bluemage, you just fell into a rabbit hole. All you need is a budget, plan and a flashlight.

Glad to see you contributing to the forum today DancingSea.    ;)

Speaking of using 2 amps and 1 preamp in a single speaker (pair) system, does the Decware switching box allow for such a thing? I don't even know the logistics of such a thing. I'm guessing the speakers and 2 amps all running into a single box with an a/b switch for amps. Switching speaker connections every time you want to switch amps would be a pain.

Before we send off a whistle-blower missive to The Star or The Globe-


All EQs have make-up gain. This restores what the pass filter reduced back to its former level, thereby boosting the frequency band that wasn't reduced to a higher level than before.

I think it's possible (in fact likely) that the make-up gain in the ZR2 is at about 1dB or so (above unity gain) before the low pass filter is nudged into action.  

Bluemage - regarding to buy or not, we are a bunch of crackheads and not the best consultants.  We always advise to buy!

My CryoTone tubes shipped today!  One pill makes you larger, and one pill makes you small….  It’s actually the “White Rabbit” hole.

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The day that page goes up customer service will be swamped.


DancingSea,

Looking forward to your careful analysis of the Cryotone tubes.

Steve, I’m glad you found your way to TOOL. I’ve been a big fan for 20 years. “Invincible” is really the demo track off that album I think; at the end of the song if your system is dialed in the heads of the floor toms should be visibly vibrating in front of your speakers as your gut vibrates along with them. “Chocolate Chip Trip” is great for soundstaging and the other tracks are great for really rocking, but the drum sound and impact on “Invincible” is killer.

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DancingSea,

"dial", "measures", no clarifications needed. Interesting what a 1:15 search on the web produces.

I think Steve had a stroke of genius with the Zrock implementation in his 300b.

Now a isolated remote controlled Zrock dial would be a good item to hash out!

John

Thanks Steve.  The only confusion is the manual states that the EQ begins at 50% (high noon).  Yet your 300B post infers that the EQ begins at 1:15, which is where the 300B’s internal ZR2 will be set (1:15).

The question is which is correct?  Does the EQ begin at high noon (per the manual), or at 1:15?

Mahalo from Maui

My thoughts too Archie.

Aha, the middle path. Very Zen indeed.

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This is my current aim. I have the parts on the way or delivered. Will need to find better RCAs from a more reputable dealer though. The one's recieved from over seas were advertised copper with 24k gold plate. Recieved brass gold plated.

It's really cool that Steve's integrating the ZR2 into the 300, but I really wish there was an adjustment knob. While I've yet to experience the ZR2's magic, I find the adjustable EQ curve very appealing, and that's what drew me to it in the first place. Sometimes my records just need an extra kick, which leads me to fiddle with the bass knob on my old Sherwood.

Ahh, I got you, that makes sense. Then I'll just plan on doing the same. Thank you for the clarification!

From JBzen: "Will need to find better RCAs from a more reputable dealer"

Of those IC ends I have tried I ended up liking KLE IC RCA's sound most overall. And the range increments were real to me, ending up using mostly the top two, Pure and Absolute. But when I first tried them, I thought the lower cost "silver" one was really good, just not as refined.... My personal preference, I like the way KLE blends clarity, resolution with smoothness, and they support my general preference for how low mass ends with good design can reveal delicacy with fine detail and space. To me these are not spectacular sounding in a HiFi way, but complete, while being relatively "not there." And though not cheap, I liked the price for the sound quality quite a bit too, WBT-AGs being my next overall fav and a lot more money even bought on a good discount.

So when KLE component RCAs were introduced, I got some Perfect Harmonys, and later found a good place in the ZRock2. I was not carefully logging the change from stock, and the stock RCAs had a nice sound to me, so I did not know what to expect. But I think I got a very similar sound from the KLE RCAs as their IC ends... and to me, notably more open complexity and speed than these particular gold plated RCAs.

I also really like WBT Copper/Gold, probably less obvious and more fine detailed; Furutech FT903-R, more "there," and more clearly/apparently open and complex... perhaps a good one if you want a little "livening up;" and DHLabs, more mass, but not heavy, neutral, and good at delicacy and resolution. These are not AB comparisons, but memories of initial impressions from the changes. I am hoping to set up something to direct AB all of these favs in a component, but I have not taken the time. At this point though, I would use any of these again. And if these seem like too much, I bet the lower range KLE are quite good... on sale now at Sonic Craft and Parts Connexion.

I actually got some really well made red copper, with silver RCAs from a Chinese seller some years ago, and think they are nicely resolving, but next to the WBTs I was comparing them to, the sound was more dense and focussed than I prefer, reminding me that I tend to prefer the potential delicacy and nuance from lower mass RCAs I have liked.

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And if she doesn't is it possible she enters the transfer portal?

Will and Edsonic got it right.

I have been evaluating the voicing of the amplifier on the house speakers all weekend. I've got it so dialed in at this point that literally I am spending an entire week playing with the value of a single resistor. It's like building a race motor when changing the timing by only a degree or two can bring everything together to win the race.

The resistor value is bending the ZROCK2 curve in ways that are impossible to do in the ZROCK2 itself.  The reason I am here is because I wondered what would happen if...  So now we are in new territory.

I created two values and a bypass with three temporary switches.  The bypass deletes the entire circuit.  I started the weekend with the original value that I was sure was it but then realized I could bend the circuit and hadn't tried that yet so value B created a smile in the response curve by about 1 dB by dishing out the midrange but not the treble. The low bass was boosted by about 1 dB as well.  This basically unrolled both ends of the 300B giving it a more neutral sound similar to our other amplifiers.

I have to tell you that going through these three settings during the listening sessions was mind roasting! I stared with the original setting and it was great. Then I went to bypass and I was horrified at how rude it was - not unlike getting your pecker stuck in the zipper. The horror was in realizing that this is how virtually 99% of other amplifiers are made. Both setting A and the Bypass measured the same. The bypass pushed the sound stage forward from the back which then compressed the depth and as a consequence resulted in a bit of hardness in the frequency balance as the layers stacked up on top of each other. I was exactly like having some of the mirrors in a telescope slightly out of alignment.

Then after several hours I was ready to hear value B so I flipped the switches and the sound stage exploded back into all of its dozens of layers with such clarity and focus I just stood there and looked stupid for awhile.

It wasn't just that everything got better, like 400% better, but notes changed. Instead of a single note being like a bubble of sound with a couple of even order harmonics it now was an organized 3D bundle of textures numbering in the hundreds that create the illusion of a single note.

So now were are sculpting the resolution, the staging, the balance, the image focus, and the depth and complexity of notes -- like getting all those mirrors aligned on the James Webb telescope -- and doing it all with a single resistor value. That's hardcore Zen.

There's virtually no way other 300B amps are likely to sound like this... I just can't see it. I know this because this process is no different than taking your carbureted hot rod out on the country road and smashing it and then pulling over, removing and inspecting all 8 plugs, and then changing the jets in the carb all while pulled over in the ditch and then repeating the process all damn day until you get it right. Most people would re-define 'right' after 3 times. It takes 11 to get it right if your lucky. And if you design amps with a Spice model that's often like predicting the right jet size without actually knowing the weather or driving the car... good luck with that on the drag strip.




click to enlarge

I am closing in on the chassis design as well. The switches and little board in the back is my temporary rig for listening to the different values. That mess will be gone in the production model. In fact I expect it to lay out a lot neater than this prototype that has been changed at least a dozen times.

Happy Listening

Steve

NOTE:  This was my first post tonight that vanished completely.  I basically somehow deleted it.  I had to start over from scratch so I wrote the post above as my second draft. Then after I posted it, this my first post appeared.  I am going to leave this one up too so you can have both versions.


UPDATE MAY 9 2022

Probably the biggest change of late is moving the amp to the house speakers for the final voicing. They are very different from the ZF15L and HDT where I started.

They have uncanny imaging focus. It’s really tight, like to a pin point. And because of that and their overall balance I had an interesting experience that I know I spoke about somewhere on these forums.

I had resurrected a TORII MK5 prototype from years past that never made the grade. I finished it and in the process created a one-off design that I still kind of wish I had kept. The reason was because I had hooked it up to the house speakers and it had this relaxed, deep sound that was the best I had heard in many ways on those speakers.  In fact I had the amp duplicated as close as possible. The only change was the power transformer, and even after matching the voltages it became sadly obvious that it was still enough of a change to never quite capture that sound. A sound I can still remember, like a ghost that haunts me.

So with this back story, I am presently working on frequency balance and imaging / soundstage.

I have installed 3 temporary switches on the amp that let me hear A B C configurations. A is my original configuration that I thought was it. B is bypassed completely  and C is my new configuration that I think is it.

We can no longer reference the ZROCK2 with regards to any further voicing including these switches I am using to find the perfect setting. This is because the circuit is getting bent in a way that can’t be done with the ZROCK2. It is getting bent to compensate for the signature of the WE300B so that final sound is closer to our other amplifiers, which is to say a bit more neutral.  

The two main settings are a humbling reminder of how bad bypass sucks. It sucks only from the perspective of getting the sound stage shoved a bit forward from the back compressing the depth and adding a touch of hardness that shouldn’t be there. Again, a sound I have often blamed on the recordings. Setting A is really good, measuring ultra close to flat. Setting B has a very tiny smile. The midrange is dished by around a dB, the top end is not and the bass is up by about a dB. This unrolls both ends of the 300B and makes it sound a little more like our other amps.

Last night I took the amp in the listening room and started in setting A which I was used to. I then compared it with bypassed and bypassed isn’t quite as bad as catching your pecker in the zipper but it was pretty rude nonetheless. Then I went back to A for another hour. Then I switched it to B and it was a holy crap moment because I got that same amazing, like twice as good, soundstage that I have only heard once before…

When I say twice as good, I mean four times as good. It was like getting all the mirrors aligned on the James Webb Telescope.

Tonight I am focusing on B and it was going great until I played Daft Punk and the low bass drew attention to itself. I half expected that, but that bass is needed in the signal to align everything in the driver stages, so rather than go back to setting A I have reduced the coupling caps feeding the 300B to dry clean the sound a bit by preventing exaggerated low bass.

The textural depth is paralleling the sound stage depth. One requires the other and both require a room that allows it to happen and it is happening big time under these reference conditions.



click to enlarge


I have also been working on the final chassis layout as I continue to polish this. Tonights cap is 10x smaller and faster with less thickness through the middle. I suspect I will probably end up in the middle before it’s over.

The take away, is the sound stage and clarity of all the layers is twice as good as anything you’ve heard in the videos so far, not that you can even hear that in the videos which is why I don’t mind saying the amp is completed in the videos when in reality it is still improving for those with the reference environment for it to express itself.

It just blows my mind how huge and fundamental the change is, and it’s only 1 resistor’s value that is controlling this whole thing.  I have the amp so dialed in that it’s like a race engine where changing the timing by only a couple degrees can bring everything together to win the race.

The notes get deeper.  Instead of a note being a bubble of sound, it has become a highly defined bundle of textures that combine to create the illusion of a note.

You don’t hear this deep into stuff with most audio gear.  And from the 300B sound I started with as you may remember I wasn’t confident it was even possible with this amp.

How exciting! I'm glad I have my order in. Now to live long enough. . . .

Yes, I put myself into the order queue. I can only thank my father for this. His passing will allow us to become debt free again, including paying off our mortgage, and I will be able to afford this when my number comes up (that is my number on the Build List.)

I have so much to be grateful for my father and this final blessing is just one reason. Perhaps more importantly he taught me how to listen and to appreciate music, which has been something that has enriched my entire life. I got to share listening times with him and he was able to hear what I hear in great audio and appreciate and understand the differences. I miss him a lot.

I agree that this is shaping up to be the flagship or certainly an amp holding a place of pride in the stable. And it connects the dots for me: a 300B amp lured me away from push-pull and solid state, and led me to Decware and the culmination of a Decware 300B Sarah seems something that has to happen in my life. Journeys like this have been a part of my personal history--both of my wives have been women I loved but did not have a chance to be loved by for many years later, and I left this area to find myself and returned decades later, a found person with a new mission. This audio journey should be no different.

Steve's enthusiasm is always infectious and also has always been easy for me to catch as I think we have similar natures in important ways. Following the development of the Sarah is going to be a joyful thing.

You said something about the layout and It just looks so perfect. So appealing. Probably going to have to drive and invade the compound soon. Not quite there yet.

When I force bilateral symmetry on one of my fractal programs, I get close, but this is beautiful.

Takes a couple of reads to grasp what is going on with The Development process sometimes.
I thank you for sharing the whole Behind The Curtain view, Steve!!

Tip of the hat to you folks getting in on the first of the run.

Is this the new "flagship" Decware design?

Just as I had guessed what you had meant by the "1:15" position and its implementation in the amp, I had guessed that this touch of "lushness" and what it adds to the Decware line-up was part of your intention in developing it.

I'm glad to hear it because I would really love to experience that bit of lushness. My sober life needs some lushness!

Call or email Sarah. She'll take a pre-order with a very low deposit.

You're welcome. As Nike says, "Just do it."

I suggest contacting Sarah. As far as I know at this time all the possible options haven't been communicated outside of Steve and Sarah, and if anyone knows the possibilities it's Sarah.