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EQUIPMENT FORUMS >> ZEN SARAH 300B >> DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
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Message started by Steve Deckert on 04/13/22 at 03:36:32

Title: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Steve Deckert on 04/13/22 at 03:36:32

Welcome to the SEWE300B Design Log.


This is a continuation of the the Western Electric to Manufacture Tubes in the USA thread found here:

https://www.decware.com/cgi-bin/yabb22/YaBB.pl?num=1648154321

With the war in Ukraine, Russian tubes are hard to get and Western Electric is stepping up to the plate to bring many of these tubes to market. Right now they have the original 300B tubes but are adding more.  To support this USA company I am making a DECWARE 300B amplifier specifically for the Western Electric 300B tubes that cost nearly half the price of the amplifier!  Obviously the resulting sound of a Decware 300B amp would have to be so over the top to justify such an expensive tube, but we are confident it is not only possible but likely.

So in the world of 300B amplifiers the $1500 price for a pair of tubes would only be small percentage of the amplifier cost... welcome to high end audio of which we completely are but aren't.  If you do the math based on my comments we should be able to hand build a 300B amplifier without tubes starting around 3K that can carry the Decware badge with honor.  

Below is the beginning of the design log for this new Decware amplifier.  I'm sure it will be interesting because they always are.  A tumultuous journey for myself as I try to rise to the occasion and make things happen... these real time journals are import so I don't forget any of the stops along the journey and it gets those who care inside my head so they know what to expect before they ever hear it.





DESIGN LOG - DECWARE 300B

So one of the things that has always given me some pause with respect to directly heated triodes like the 300B is the fact that if you run an AC heater, you have to use a hum balance pot on the cathode.  That would be a 2 watt or 5 watt wire wound linear 100 ohm pot where the center wiper becomes the cathode path to ground!  This means you would have to have an extremely high quality wire wound pot not to tank the sound right here.  This is the critical signal path where even the type of wire used will effect the signature of the amp.

So naturally this is why some of the more high end offerings use DC heater supplies for the tube.  That also worries me because we're not talking about a battery here, this would be a rectified AC supply with however much noise and sag you decide to allow.  Another scary prospect.  Even scarier are the solid state regulated supplies that promise perfection but I only see artifact.

Then I find from the WE spec sheet and literature that while they use the best coatings, DC on the heaters can still cause some stripping  and reduce the quality and life of the tube.  Obviously we're not going to do that.  So then besides the worry about the quality of the pot comes the worry about hum.  The other reason many hi end offerings go with DC on the heaters.

To do this right, the power transformer is going to have to be really good.  The extra trouble to wind it with reduced stray fields, and no primary capacitance coupling.  Not to mention since the cathode is the AC heater for the tube, and there are two tubes, there should be two separate heater windings, one for each.  And then a 3rd for the input tubes and a 4th for the rectifier.

I figured out that all the pot is doing (other than balancing AC for zero hum) is acting like the center tap on the heater winding passing the signal from  ground to either side.  That means that if a heater supply is center tapped, you should be able to use that for the cathode resistor instead of the center wiper of the balance pot.

To make the balance pot work, the bypass cap for the cathode resistor can be placed on the wiper since we're only dealing with a low frequency (50/60Hz).

With the cathode current and signal no longer going through the hum balance pot or it's wiper, the amp stands a chance at being a Zen Triode.

Below is a diagram of how I'm doing it.

 


The right side seems to be the standard method.  The left side would be superior on multiple levels because now the only thing the pot does is balance AC to the ZERO point while the DC current and signal do not pass through it.


So this forms the basis for my plan, along with a custom transformer.  The output transformers will be the same UFO transformers used in the SE34I.5 now SE34I.6.  The driver stage will also be identical but with different tubes.  At least at this point in the development that is the plan.


At this stage I am worried about the giant power supply transformer, worried about possible hum, and worried about too much heat.  I'm not going to lie, it's stressful like driving around with your muffler dragging the ground.  For this reason I am not wasting any time on this project.  It's some new territory for me and let's be honest, the pressure is high.  Not only would everyone expect it to be better than other 300B amps because it's a Decware but its performance will be measured against the 25th Anniversary Zen Triode amp which has so far been completely unbeatable.  This would be a lot of pressure for an amp builder who only dealt with DHT tubes, but for me, of course it's over the top so as I said no pressure here!



Steve


Title: Re: Western Electric to manufacture new USA tubes.
Post by Steve Deckert on 04/13/22 at 03:52:23


I ordered Gold Lion 300B tubes at $400 a pair just before the war made everything Russian harder to get.  I will be placing my order for the Western Electric pair tomorrow.  My plan is to voice it using the modestly priced Russian tube, or a JJ tube since that is what many will use in the amp... I mean let's be honest with ourselves. Then when the WE get here I can experience a good AB and make sure it passes without any tweaks to the circuit. To be more clear I have set the amp up specifically for the WE 300B and am seeing how alternates perform at those settings.  Those settings are 383V 65.3 mA.

I am amazed at how many different brand 300B tubes there are in current production around the world.  I must have found at least 20.  Word is some of the Valve Art and JJ offerings are spectacular.  Interestingly, some of the cheaper tubes from China sound better than the more expensive ones.  So this will certainly be a fund adventure.

The power supply will be choke regulated with a 4uf 900V capacitor at the first section and the standard Decware 5U4 tube will be used.  However, with a 4uF capacitor and the lower voltages a 274B and any number of variants should be able to be used.  I'm sure there are some favorites amongst 300B enthusiasts and we want to make sure the amp is compatible with them.

Steve



Picture the ACME SET 300B kit designed to catch the road runner which happens to be the Zen Triode amplifiers.

Yup, that's were it at, in the cave with the blackboard and some good scotch... gotta make this happen. ; )


Title: Re: Western Electric to manufacture new USA tubes.
Post by CAJames on 04/13/22 at 03:55:04

I look forward to the “Decware 300B amp development” thread.

Title: Re: Western Electric to manufacture new USA tubes.
Post by Steve Deckert on 04/13/22 at 03:59:00


Brian,

I am not going to transformer-couple the stages, instead I will direct-couple them and then use a capacitor to drive the finals just like all Zen Triodes.

Remember, this is going to be a Decware Zen Triode amplifier, so it literally has to sound like one.  That's not going to be easy because the tube is so different.  The capacitor is one of three parts I have to voice the amplifier.  Not willing to give that up.

Steve


Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Brian on 04/13/22 at 07:28:43

Yes, I see. I was thinking of this amp being an alternative to the sound of your existing amps, for the novelty of variety. A richer sound or a sweeter sound or what ever it is that 300B offers.

I had not thought of the transformer taking away a voicing tool. That of course makes good sense.

Brian

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Steve Deckert on 04/13/22 at 17:16:05


It will be quite a bit different sound so no worries there. It just has to have the Decware magic that our other amps have. I will not sell a 300B amp just for the sake of selling one. Case in point, I have listened to it now for over a week and by most peoples standards it would be considered great.

But against a 25th Anniversary Zen Triode amp it failed miserably. Got it ass handed to it, despite have the same internal parts. Still, I knew right then I could sell it and lots of people would buy it and love it just because it's different and because it's a 300B.  Or just because I didn't love it doesn't mean others wouldn't. The second night of evaluation I nearly fell asleep while listening to it... This is something that has never happened in my lifetime, fall asleep while listening to music.

By the third night I knew nothing was going to change enough to make a difference so I began some subtle adjustments and tube rolling on the input stage hunting for the breathtaking transparency and speed of the Zen Triodes. It still wouldn't happen.

Days later I found the tube type I needed to effect the sound I was after and things instantly changed.  Last night it did certain things better than the existing Zen Triodes and has shown me the sound I am after actually IS going to happen which is nice to know after a week of thinking it probably wasn't going to happen.  So it is coming along.

Regardless, the famous sonic characteristics of the tube will be fully realized in a Decware hallmark of transparency or it won't happen.  No reason to have two 6 watt amplifiers that sound the same.

-Steve

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Kamran on 04/13/22 at 23:18:59

This should be an interesting thread.  Looking forward to how the story unfolds.

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Nick324 on 04/14/22 at 01:18:05

TJ fullmusic, LinLai, WE, Takatsuki, and KR are all worthy tubes in 300b. An extra switch to allow 2v, 4v or 6v heating would open up the tube options and allow for slight sound signature modifications by using more DHT tubes available.

I Remember reading your opinions on the 300B in an article, I’m happy you decided to take the chance and go in a direction different from your standard thought process. If you can get somewhere between 6-8 wpc it would work ok. Anything beyond that would simply open more options for us under 70db types wildly…woohoo…lol

Wonderful to see you thinking outside your traditional box and taking world events into consideration on the possible impact to the hobby.
Leave room for a HP tap if possible.

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by SteveB on 04/14/22 at 01:27:19

Wishing you the best of luck.  I understand that this is WAY out of your comfort zone.  You will figure out how to make it reach your high expectations. Looking forward to seeing it at Decfest 2022. I hope the Audio Gods drop in an show you the way.

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by CAJames on 04/14/22 at 03:03:57

What are the odds the 300B amps will work as balanced monoblocs?

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Steve Deckert on 04/14/22 at 03:11:14


Instincts can save hours, days, even months of trial and error.  Instincts come from the Audio Gods, the trick is to listen past your own ego and follow them.  If not for this simple truth a Decware 300B amp would not be possible.  I would have to build at least 20 different amps each with two or three different front end variations to figure out by process of elimination the best possible sound.  It would take years just like it did with the original Zen amp and look how simple that was!  I don't have years to dedicate to this project.

The way I look at it is simple.  In less than a month if I didn't do anything else to it, it's already clearly a gift from the Audio Gods to have it sound this good already.  There's just no way I can take credit for it.  My skill comes from being able to hear what isn't there and then recognize it when it is there.  I use simple tenacity and instincts to create the bridge between the two, not brain power.

Anyway back to the amp.  I am happy to report that my fears about it running hot did not manifest and it actually runs the perfect temperature, slightly cooler than most of my stuff.  Also the fear about hum was also for not, as the amp is quiet.  The AC heaters worked great.

The only question is gain at this point.  The tube is a bit harder to drive than an EL34 or KT88 so the input sensitivity is a bit on the low side.  No problem if you have a preamp so I am now spending time with it without a preamp to see how the gain works out.  

I have been using the 25th Anniversary CSP325 to drive this amplifier.  It has been my observation that when used with any of our amps, things get a bit denser and have a touch better tone.  It always makes things a notch better.  So I expected some of the sound I am hearing from this amp was due to the preamp driving it, so tonight I realize while listening with no preamp that I can't even tell I took the preamp out.  Wasn't expecting that.


Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Steve Deckert on 04/14/22 at 03:16:36


I built it just like a Zen amp with a floating output stage so that it can be bridged and run as fully differential balanced mono blocks using a custom XLR cable on the inputs.  : )


Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by CAJames on 04/14/22 at 03:25:56


Quote:
Posted by: Steve Deckert      Posted on: Today at 03:16:36

I built it just like a Zen amp with a floating output stage so that it can be bridged and run as fully differential balanced mono blocks using a custom XLR cable on the inputs.  : )


Damn it! Talk about good news/bad news . Now I have to decide if I want to change my order from a pair of UFO25s to a pair of these. Good thing I have plenty of time.

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Bluemage on 04/14/22 at 04:13:56

How many WPC might one be able to expect from such an amp? Preliminarily speaking, of course.

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Bluemage on 04/14/22 at 04:26:02

Never mind, I saw where you said 6.5w

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Brian on 04/14/22 at 04:29:49

Steve said:  "It will be quite a bit different sound so no worries there. It just has to have the Decware magic that our other amps have."

Thanks, Steve for the clarification. Now I think I understand what you have been saying.
You have probably observed over the years that I can be a little thick.  

I always enjoy your comments on Audio Gods and Intuition.  Thanks.

Brian

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by CAJames on 04/14/22 at 04:34:42

NM.

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Bluemage on 04/14/22 at 04:38:10

12wpc bridged into SET monos would be rather mind-roasting...

Hmm. I never changed my MKV to UFO25s, but twin 300b monos might persuade me. Or perhaps, I could stick with the torii and just add a 300b for evenings of more delicate listening...

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by funch on 04/14/22 at 05:47:43

FWIW, Craig Uthus of Eddie Current (he's retired now so not producing anything) used an unusual method to heat the 300B/PX4 tubes in his Balancing Act headphone amp. As I understand it, he designed a power amp that produced a 42K Hz AC signal to heat the tubes. His power supply was separate and as large as the amp itself.

I had one for a time (shoulda' kept it) and can concur that the soundstage was, as one reviewer described it, otherworldly. Most credit that characteristic to the heater circuit.

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Rhtubes on 04/14/22 at 15:43:04

Steve,
Exciting news about this amp. If you are certain at this point, can you tell us which input tubes you will be using for the 300B amp? Thanks! Richard

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by CAJames on 04/14/22 at 17:14:24

can you tell us which input tubes you will be using for the 300B amp?

I'm curious too, my guess is 12AX7.

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Steve Deckert on 04/15/22 at 03:53:01



Quote:
FWIW, Craig Uthus of Eddie Current (he's retired now so not producing anything) used an unusual method to heat the 300B/PX4 tubes in his Balancing Act headphone amp. As I understand it, he designed a power amp that produced a 42K Hz AC signal to heat the tubes. His power supply was separate and as large as the amp itself.

I had one for a time (shoulda' kept it) and can concur that the soundstage was, as one reviewer described it, otherworldly. Most credit that characteristic to the heater circuit.


I can believe that.  Heater circuits are a serious voicing tool.  Pretty interesting.

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Steve Deckert on 04/15/22 at 04:00:36



Quote:
can you tell us which input tubes you will be using for the 300B amp?

I'm curious too, my guess is 12AX7.


The 6N2P and 12AX7 have been tried already and didn't suck but the reality is that this tube needs current.  I think the original 6N6P is going to be the tube to beat.  I haven't found anything I like better yet. But God, there's so many ways (circuits and values) to dial a tube in.  The possibilities are overwhelming. Nevertheless that is what I am using at this stage and already know there's not going to be any way to beat it in this circuit... a circuit that is still evolving btw.






Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Steve Deckert on 04/15/22 at 04:25:56


So to start, I wanted to replicate the SE34I.5/6 amps, which just sonically kicks ass.  I have the tubes in it biased around 42 mA although it goes up and down depending on what tubes you use.  Nevertheless, it's a clean layout that should be able to be duplicated.  : ).  See, this is how you get the Audio Gods attention... it's like when you cat does something cute and you can't resist going over there and messing with it.

Here is that amplifier - my latest masterpiece just prior to starting the 300B amp.


click to enlarge



Yes, it's the naivety that they find amusing.  I call it Ernest naivety.  To think that I was actually going to duplicate this ultra clean layout with a pair of 300B's, twice as big a transformer and get it to sound better was frankly the same kind of Ernest naivety that caused me to launch Decware in the first place. Obviously if I had known anything at all I would have known it was impossible and I can never do that, so naivety is like your machete in the jungle.






Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Steve Deckert on 04/15/22 at 05:30:30



Here is a shot of the amp as I was finishing more updates just before I buttoned it up for tonights listen.


(click to enlarge)


It looks like a mad science experiment because it has been changed so many times...

Trust me at this stage of the process we are in the heat of the race -- you don't care what it looks like until you finish the sound.  Then you will simply build a new one a re-lay things out. See it's hard going into a layout when you don't actually know what the circuit is going to be : )

So if you recall I was digging the sound, but worried about the gain. It had none. Sounded great with a preamp, or a ZBIT or a ZROCK2 or a ZSTAGE, or high output DAC. But that was with the volume turned all the way up. I could have easily lived with the sound, it was really good.  But now we're locking you into a preamp or higher gain source.  Unless that higher gain source is a ZBIT, it is adding another tube stage, capacitor and resistor or two or three... So by making it require a preamp we eliminate the opportunity to hear a single capacitor and two resistors which is the essence of a Zen Triode amplifier.

This morning when I came into work I was pondering adding another tube for more gain and ruin my simple signal path... and tonight without adding anything I have twice as much gain as I could possibly use! And I wish I could describe what I'm hearing but my face melted off on the first song.

I had an idea to use a voltage regulator tube as part of the plate resistor one day a long time ago and tonight that very thing came to pass by accident. Well, what happened was I created two different power supplies for the tube, 150 volts apart and then proceeded to hook them up in reverse. This created a nearly perfect square wave which was a little distressing. Then I correct that mistake and forgot to move the capacitor which put the voltage regulator tube in series with the plate.  Once I discovered this  I knew to leave that way because -- by now if you don't know I'm not going to tell you.

So this is tonights mad science experiment and the way it is currently dialed in the resulting sound has taken presence to a whole new universe. It's like listening to watch ticking on the other side of the room vs. being shrunk to the size of an ant and being inside the watch. I can't even process this. We might be onto something serious here.

Well there is no doubt the tube is happy, both of them : ).  This is such a trip.  If people could experience the wild swings in sound that happen during this process they would understand why I freeze when asked what parts sound best, be it tubes or otherwise because I know that the parts and or tubes have precious little to do with it compared to the circuit and execution.

All I can say about the sound right now is it feels like the James Webb Telescope. It's like you can hear 10x more information than there was before. Where the hell did it come from?  This is a completely new sound.  I think it might be time to order the WE300B tubes.  I think we're about to land.  I've actually never heard anything like this.  I've heard quite a few 300B amps.  



Steve






Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Lon on 04/15/22 at 13:16:06

Fascinating Steve. I know I'll be tempted by this amp. I've spent several years tailoring my system to the SE84UFO3 Monoblocks with the Anniversary Mods and I couldn't be, have never been, happier with a home system. I just enjoy disc after disc, digital or vinyl. My biggest problem is agonizing over whether to change the Tesla regulation tube for the input tube underneath the chassis and whether to change it to an RCA 0A2 or an GE 0B2 (I know what the 0C2 sound is like). A decision that has me paralyzed for weeks now because I don't want to pull the amps out of the system and pop their tops!

But it was hearing a friend of my father's Cary 300B integrated that started me investigating SET and finding Decware that started me on this journey of playback excitement, and even though the minute I heard my Zen amp #27 I understood WHY you wrote that these amps were better than 300B amps, over the years I have wondered what a Decware 300B amp would be like. . . . So when this goes into production I'll be tempted to order one. Not saying I WILL order one as I can't yet see affording yet another amp, but. . . .

Keep on exploring this one, I think it may become a real flame-throwing beast of an amp.

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Donnie on 04/15/22 at 13:53:43

So what will this amp be called?

Z300B?

Or Z300B SFM (Super Face Melter)

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Same Old DD on 04/15/22 at 14:53:42

Steve said,   " ... we are in the heat of the race -- you don't care what it looks like until you finish the sound. "

I think it looks beautiful, even at this stage of the race.
I know you can't tell much by just looking, except workmanship during construction and it almost looks a fancy dessert coming together in the tube realm, so far.

Maybe something along those lines could be considered as a name for the amp.
;D

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Dr3wman on 04/15/22 at 16:28:08

This is so exciting. If I had speakers that were more sensitive (88db), I'd strongly consider switching my existing order from the MKV. I know they are VERY different amps so you can't really compare, but the notion of having the WE tubes is very appealing.

Love this thread Steve, thanks for letting us into the mind of a mad scientist.

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Bluemage on 04/15/22 at 17:50:01

I'm in your boat, Dr3.

Should we stick with our MKV orders? Or, should we switch over to bridged mono 300Bs? My vote is to simply call these amps "Steve."

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Same Old DD on 04/15/22 at 18:16:39

I believe "Steve" as a kind of signature is already out there. He should continue using that!

Keep your orders going, then sell me which ever one you decide to let go, later. I will take care of it for us.
[smiley=tunes29.gif]

I know we are all jumping the gun, here, but it's fun to imagine ...

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by spyder1 on 04/15/22 at 19:59:24

Steve,

The sources for 6N6P vacuum tubes are NOS Russian Surplus. The substitute for 6N6P is JJ ECC99. Not many choices for new Decware 300B Amplifier owners. :-?

Paul

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by piezoman on 04/16/22 at 00:10:27


Quote:
Posted by: Bluemage      Posted on: Today at 12:50:01

Should we stick with our MKV orders? Or, should we switch over to bridged mono 300Bs?


This thread, while quite interesting, doesn't move me a bit.

For me, there's zero question that I'm dying for my Torii MK 5-25th order. About 4 months and counting. I'll take its versatility, tuneability & power 24-7.

Hats off to Steve though for pursuing this wonderful and challenging path.

- Brad

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Bluemage on 04/16/22 at 00:44:41

I would like one of each!!!

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by jec3504 on 04/16/22 at 01:30:44

It won't be much longer piezoman, hang in there buddy.

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by piezoman on 04/16/22 at 01:44:54

thanks jec....as you well know, its a long road

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Bluemage on 04/16/22 at 01:59:12

When you order, Piezoman? I got mine in shortly after Christmas.

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by piezoman on 04/16/22 at 02:08:41

Blue, i placed the order 5/4/2021

- Brad

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Bluemage on 04/16/22 at 02:43:21

Dang, you'll be kicking out some sweet tunes well before I can! I can't wait for a full report on your MKV! I've yet to read one. Any ETA for you?

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Steve Deckert on 04/16/22 at 03:07:53


FRIDAY UPDATE

Last night was a bit over the top, a side effect of having more gain than I can use. Plus I was listening loud to see what was possible. Tonight the test is to hear the plate resistor with a capacitor which would be the conventional method. The voltage regulator tube is still there but it’s output now supported by the cap. I need to hear what this does. Also I trimmed the value of the grid resistors a bit to keep it from getting flashy sounding. So far the amplifier sounds a bit more ‘normal’ but I don’t know for sure yet, or if it does, why.

This is the part of the trip that gets a little psychedelic because even though I have my reference (Decware amps), I am not trying to get this to sound exactly like one, nor does it want to sound exactly like one, nor could it if it wanted to so far as I can tell.  

As many of you already know, every amplifier I have done that is on our site was specifically designed to sound as close as possible to the original 2 watt Zen Triode. That has over the years proven to be fairly easy because it is very targeted. This amplifier on the other hand is an exploration to see what’s in there!

Anyway, the psychedelic part comes from loosing that target and having no idea where I will land. Also, because the amp obviously doesn’t sound like my other amps, my meter for what is the right and wrong sound is not functioning. And then there’s the evil spirits…

Father Murphy is one. Like a watered down Lucifer. He has been jacking with the USB from my Roon Nucleus and doing it intermittently for months but now intensified. When it happens the jitter becomes high and the sound gets sharp and frankly unlistenable. And of course that would be for amateur spirits of which he is not, so 27 layers of gray have been laid down between working perfect and becoming so noticeable that is has to be dealt with.

You can see for example how having this happen while I am listening to what happens when I change certain parts of the circuit could change the outcome of the amplifier, hence it’s final sound which will effect all of us who own one. This is serious shit ; )

So just wanted you to know the balancing force for the Audio Gods is also at work to ruin it.  Each entity bets on the outcome and then they stand around that damn marble pool and watch to see what happens. It’s their version of reality TV and if you think that doesn’t happen you’re in for a real mind melter after death.

This afternoon one lost a bet when I put a resistor in parallel with another one to increase the resistance and thus raise the voltage to a certain section of the amplifier and this brand new resistor was open (measured infinity) so it didn’t alter the voltage, it did nothing except make me think I had increased the voltage.  The idea for this ploy came from watching me not measure the voltage before I got the resistor to raise it, so there would be no way to know the resistor was open and did absolutely nothing.   I had the urge to drop the voltage back to where it was and in removing the resistor I discovered it was bad and the voltage had been low the entire time.  I thought it was high.  I was forming opinions about how certain parts of the circuit sound based on the assumption the voltage was higher than it was.  

You can probably imagine by now how many ways there are to fail at this.

Steve


Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by CAJames on 04/16/22 at 03:45:49

Any difference between working with a "true" triode and a triode-strapped pentode?

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Steve Deckert on 04/16/22 at 03:56:18


The bets are higher.


Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Steve Deckert on 04/16/22 at 04:06:22




The prototype under test today.




Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Billparsons on 04/16/22 at 04:24:23

Try the .33uf Miflex alone as the first capacitor after the rectifier.    

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by SteveB on 04/16/22 at 05:40:41

I only have a couple of questions.

Is it possible to have the new SE300UFO equipped with a UX4 rectifier socket? As an option it would be nice to be able to roll 274a, Globe 80, or 5z3 rectifiers without an adapter.

Are you going to try out oil filled can capacitors in the power supply? That is of course after you have nailed down the circuit values with your usual (and awesome) arsenal of caps.

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Carlsbad on 04/16/22 at 14:36:08

Dang.  Things move fast in your lab.  Looks pleasantly like my SE34I.5.  I'm intrigued by it.  but since I've only had Rachel 2 weeks I'm plenty absorbed in her.  I like that the top only has 4 screws in it.  I have two amps in that configuration right now.
https://share.icloud.com/photos/0e8i91lCeNbE1bSaIrwnR72MQ

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by 4krow on 04/16/22 at 21:56:56

The Rachael is one of the coolest amps that I ever owned. Now that I have built the DNA2, I would like to try her out again.
Steve, I am enticed by the 'what if' factor in making just about anything. In this case, I had to know, what if, I build a class D power amp and used a tube preamp to drive it. As time went by, I found myself fiddling more than anything. I won't say that I was disappointed, but I simply missed the sound that I had before.
I am still using a directly heated triode for the preamp part, and then using yet another class A power amp. I seem to like the 20-40 watt region of power despite some drawbacks.
What I am getting here is the beauty of being able to start, either by yourself, or with a bunch of help (like I did), a project that came partly from some sort of inspiration. It doesn't always end up where you would like or as planned but the trip is worthwhile.

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Steve Deckert on 04/18/22 at 03:19:04



Quote:
Steve,

The sources for 6N6P vacuum tubes are NOS Russian Surplus. The substitute for 6N6P is JJ ECC99. Not many choices for new Decware 300B Amplifier owners. Huh

Paul


True, they are but no worries...  it's the same family of input tubes we have always used so the amp will be compatible with 6922, 6N1P, 6N5P, 6N23P, and of course 6N6P.


Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Steve Deckert on 04/18/22 at 05:00:38


BIG UPDATE:  Sunday Results

Since my last post, the main curiosity I had was about the VR tube connected to the plate resistor vs. connecting to a capacitor and the plate resistor at that node.  I had to wire a switch so I could have the amp warmed up and then switch the capacitor in and out.  I started in the afternoon yesterday and streamed classic rock which sounds like plastic when anything is even slightly off...  I did this because I am interested to hear the amp sound better with each change, so play material the sounds almost like crap, make the change and then see if it sounds less like crap.  This is easier than playing reference recordings and trying to hear which one sounds better.

I started with the capacitor in the circuit, which is the normal way and the way I have always done it so far as I can remember.  After about 3 hours of listening to it sound borderline like crap one particularly bad sounding piece came on and I walked in there and flipped the switch.  I was stunned.  It got so much better.

So I proceeded to listen to it that way the rest of evening. Not in the sweet spot but from my work bench.  Sweet spot too distracting when trying to hear what is wrong.

By evening I had concluded that the present circuit wasn't going to fly.  The amplifier sounded like I went to a retail hi-fi shop and purchased a retail tube amp. Couldn't find anything wrong with it, nor measure anything wrong with it, and it had it's moments, but it just didn't move me.  Not at all, in fact it made me understand that I'm really going to have to work  for it.

CIRCUIT

The original circuit was the exact SRPP stage used in the SE34i.5.  It sounded really good, but as you recall, couldn't drive the tube to the same output level resulting in the amp having too little gain.

The best sounding tube in that circuit was the 6N6P.  6N6P is a really bomb proof high current tube of which the original ones sound pretty good. We'll the amp still didn't have any more gain than before, it just sounded better. So I decided to optimize the circuit for the 6N6P and created a really rather high current direct coupled gain stage where the output tube was driven of the plate of the second stage. This got complicated really fast because the circuit needed another voltage, hence filter section. Prior to this I had added bypass caps on everything trying to get more life out of the top end and more speed. (That proved to be stupid because that is an improper use of the technology). Before you knew it, we had an ultra complicated driver stage with 4 or 5  times as many parts and that was rubbing me in the wrong way because I'm watching the price of the amplifier gradually almost double due to the complexity of the build and extra caps.  

Anyway this was some pretty textbook engineering except for the SG5B regulator tube trick, and even with that the sound was average. It contained some veil, some hardness, some plastic aftertaste, some poor low level performance, a forward sound without the hallmark DECWARE touch despite my efforts it's still not I want. I will recognize it when I hear it even if I've never heard it.

When I went to bed I knew without any doubt that the problem was I needed to be listening to a cathode in the driver stage, not the plate. I just knew it because I know the sound signatures within this gain structure by memory. Never in this situation does the plate sound better. The cathode always sounds better. More musical, more spacious, fuller, warmer... you get it. But you get zero gain in most cases, the exception being a SRPP stage where both triodes are in series and you drive the output from the center.

I could have pretty easily modified the existing circuit with new values and moved the output to the cathode but so far this driver circuit hasn't done anything to suggest I'm going to love it, so I just removed the entire thing and all the extra bypass and filter caps and created my own SRPP stage from scratch which was basically like the original SE34I.5 circuit that I started with, but now with slightly different values and two wicked little twists, one I'll keep to myself, the other I will say was to connect the SG5B output directly the plate of the SRPP stage.

I plugged in a 6N5P, the lower gain sister of the 6N1P because from a gain standpoint that would be a worse case scenario and kept my fingers crossed as I popped it on the analyzer that it would have the same input sensitivity as our other amps which is about 1.5 volts and that's exactly what it came out to.  

The distortion signature, and power and gain are all perfect. The power comes in a 6 watts.  

I took it into the listening room and hooked it up and began to raise the right volume control just in time to catch the last note in a song as it trailed off to silence. About 1 second long, a note/sound I am well familiar with and instantly I felt it. It was right. I nailed it. I could tell from just that 1/2 second of sound on one channel.

So I raised both dials to the half way point and waited for the next track to start. It was eerily silent and then suddenly music just flowed into the space like Holy water. Yes, this was the magic sound I was waiting to hear, and as is usually the case in these situations, even better than the sound I heard in my mind. Boy this is going to be fun!

Warm and full with good dynamics at low volume, like a Zen amp with that insane transparency and layering that we can't live without.

At risk of jinxing it I am going to say the amp is done and it is back to it eloquent simple self again. I am still listening the the 6N5P and trilled it has enough gain to bring the amp to past 6 watts with 2 volts and the sound.  The 6N5P sounds so good right now that I swear if I tried to remove it to hear a different tube -- lightning would strike me dead on the spot just for being stupid.  It's simple, the rule has always been that when it sounds this good you don't jack with it.

This is definitely the sound I want my name on for the 300B tube. It's just like listening to the smaller amps but with that 300B top to bottom magic. So far in this adventure I have created and listened to 6 different ways (driver stages) to waste the sonic potential of this tube and the sad thing is they all look fantastic on paper, and would be considered by any non-DECWARE customer to sound great.

And the weird circle of driver stage design produced something I would have never come up otherwise. Using a VR tube instead of a plate resistor has just throttled the transparency through the roof, and the SRPP stage that can be found in several Decware products proves once again to be unbeatable.  

Can this new SRPP stage design trickle back to the other products? Not exactly like it did here, no. It's about the whole of all the variables unique to this amplifier, the voltages and the 300B tube itself.

That's cool because that would justify the amplifier as something beyond a 'popular demand' design into something that pushes Decware fidelity into new territory.  At this point I will listen to it all day all week on streaming music off the algorithm so that great and non great recordings are intermixed and in the evenings listen to reference material.

One thing about this tube that is different in this particular amplifier is that the distortion comes on in a more linear fashion than even our other amplifiers and that will make it more tolerant of being pushed. For example if you want to take it to 10% distortion you can get around 10/11 watts out of it. Now obviously no-one is going to turn an amp up to an RMS level with 10% distortion, but what it will do is increase the instantaneous peak power so that when the amp is pushed it's headroom is better managed.

So what makes this design unique, is so far:

A) The driver stage - there is probably no other one like it on the planet. The driver stage IS the amp.  
B) Cathode circuit for the 300B is separated from the AC hum balance by using the center tape of the transformer instead of the wiper on the hum balance pot keeping AC and DC paths separate and quality factor of the cathode circuit high.
C) UFO output transformers.
D) One capacitor, 2 resistors in the whole signal path with no preamp required or even recommended.

And this is perhaps the most striking part of this sound relating to the 300B tube. Zen Triodes often sound better with a preamp because it makes the source a little juicer and adds some weight. As I often site it is a tool to make your source better. So now we have an amplifier that sounds exactly like it has our best preamp in front of it and it is hooked directly to a DAC via the ZBIT set to 2 volts. The way I see it, this saved the audiophile the price of a preamp because for some fascinating reason all the density and bloom a preamp adds is already here. Another way to express it is to say that based on what I am hearing now, it really can't get any better than this so a preamp probably isn't going to help you with a killer DAC like the HOLO Audio Kitsune editions.  

So what does a 300B tube bring to the Decware experience... density and more vidid colors.  Everything else is now the same but the density and tone a preamp adds is already there. Transparency is now on par with the 25th Anniversary Benchmark and that was my biggest worry as I went into this especially when I kept hearing less than stellar sound from each of these driver stages as we went along.

The 25th Anniversary Zen Triode amplifier made this design possible by kicking it's ass until the very end.







Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Steve Deckert on 04/18/22 at 05:13:01


HAHAHA - I'm sorry but in the past hour and especially right now the difference in sound between this and the 6 previous versions stack up like this: On a scale of 1 to 10 the first version was a 4, the second was also a 4, the third was also a 4, the fourth was a 5 and the final is a 19. The sound is surreal.  My F'ing face hurts!




Ear Candy.  It's so over top compared to where it started and the sound is so beautiful that I will name it after my daughter Sarah who if you've ever seen, is exactly how this amplifier now sounds.








-Steve


Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by morp on 04/18/22 at 05:43:55

What an exciting update Steve! After calling you those years ago and asking for your rendition of a 300B amp, it feels surreal that we're here. I'm ready to call the woman in the picture and place my order.

Thanks,
Richard

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Lon on 04/18/22 at 09:32:42

Fantastic discovery Steve! I'm sure the amp sounds as lovely as Sarah.

I can't imagine where to put the amp if I got one--I am so attached to the Monoblocks now, and in my other system I can only (due to spousal authorization) use the long narrow chassis amps and preamps because they have to reside behind a cadenza. Alas. But I know there's a particular "magic" in the 300B tube that you would discover how to implement best--this is going to be a wonderful addition to the product line. And I can't wait for you to hear a WE 300B and then get it "cryotoned."

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Bluemage on 04/18/22 at 13:45:13

A fitting name for such an amp. Sarah is always quite lovely in our email correspondence.

Will this amp have silk-screened volume markings like the MKV? I dig those.

When might such an amp be available for purchase?

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Brian on 04/19/22 at 04:43:28

A splendid success!
Congratulations, Steve.
Just in time for Easter.

Happy for you,
Brian

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Matchstikman on 04/19/22 at 13:50:29

At one time I considered a Cary 300SEI but review after review told me that it was a great amp, but only for specific music.  So, I didn't get it.  Sometimes I regret it. So, what kind of music is best through a 300B amp?  Anything?  Everything? Some things?

Does a 300b amp require a subwoofer?

Steve, what music are you hearing to test your amp?  Maybe you mentioned it but I missed it.

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Lon on 04/19/22 at 14:08:49

If Steve is happy with it I think it's great for all music! Just my suspicion. . . .

Also my guess is that it would need a subwoofer in the same way that a Rachel might. . . or might not. . . depending on personal taste, room and system.

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Matchstikman on 04/19/22 at 16:13:58

Lon, one of the reasons I didn't get the Cary was that the reviews often spoke about how it sputtered with music that had lots of low end.  I like low end.  I love low end.  One of the reasons I still have the blue Torii, and still use it, as of yesterday, was the great low end.

Maybe Steve can comment on that.

A 300b amp has been on my bucket list for years.

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by CAJames on 04/19/22 at 16:54:32


Quote:
Posted by: Matchstikman      Posted on: Today at 13:50:29

At one time I considered a Cary 300SEI but review after review told me that it was a great amp, but only for specific music.  So, I didn't get it.  Sometimes I regret it. So, what kind of music is best through a 300B amp?  Anything?  Everything? Some things?


I would say the "traditional" 300B sound is big, lush and warm but slow and rolled off at the frequency extremes. And, again "traditionally" they excelled a e.g. acoustic music and vocals but didn't really rock.

To echo what Lon said, I think if Steve is happy with his 300B amp it isn't going to be a traditional 300B sound. It is going to be fast and transparent across the entire frequency range and (if you have the right speakers and the right room) it is going to give you all the bass you want, in addition to a dose of the 300B magic in the midrange.
 

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Lon on 04/19/22 at 17:12:34


Matchstikman wrote on 04/19/22 at 16:13:58:
Lon, one of the reasons I didn't get the Cary was that the reviews often spoke about how it sputtered with music that had lots of low end.  I like low end.  I love low end.  One of the reasons I still have the blue Torii, and still use it, as of yesterday, was the great low end.

Maybe Steve can comment on that.

A 300b amp has been on my bucket list for years.


I hear you. I heard a Cary 300B integrated and it was the final straw that got me hot for an SET amp and led to me finding Decware. It was in the home of one of my Dad's friends and it was playing classical music, chamber music. So I can't speak to the nature of the low end or whether it would sound great really loud. I too read those types of reviews. . . reviews are what they are, sometimes helpful, sometimes hindering, often no more than a slice of opinion at a time. And sometimes accurate!

But as C A says this is Steve's implementation of the 300B tube, it's already very different from most circuits that 300B amps are built with, and Steve wouldn't sell it if it didn't have a "Decware nature" at its core. So. . . my guess it would be along the lines of the Rachel and Taboo in frequency playback, for what that's worth. I wouldn't really expect Blue Torii bass.

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Bluemage on 04/19/22 at 17:23:38

Steve's been (presumably) putting her through her paces for the past couple days. I expect an armchair report is in our immediate future. Or perhaps, Steve doesn't sit to listen. Maybe he's the kind of guy who slam dances whilst ancient audio gods of renown chase him around the room.

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Steve Deckert on 04/19/22 at 17:28:13


I noticed that some of the nice comments about Sarah's picture have disappeared and wanted to assure you all of two things; 1) I'm sure she enjoys the compliments and 2) We are well aware of her looks which is why we are naming the amplifier after her since it has a similarly beautiful sound.

Steve

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Sarah on 04/19/22 at 17:51:36

I'm absolutely flattered that Steve is naming the 300B amp after me! And what woman doesn't love compliments. I enjoy reading them.  :)

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Geno on 04/19/22 at 19:14:24

I just thought that maybe my comment might be viewed as inappropriate.

Beauty should be admired AND respected.

In this case, then, I retract my earlier retraction ;)

Best,

Geno

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Lon on 04/19/22 at 19:20:28

Her loveliness aside, this amp naming is appropriate for the work that Sarah has done for us and for Steve--professional and congenial customer service, and hard-to-imagine from our viewpoint wonderful support to the company. The amp could just as easily have been named DeVon--for her beauty or her tremendous accomplishments. Either way this amp would have a lot to live up to--and I know it will.

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Matchstikman on 04/19/22 at 23:23:21

I am surprised that after all these years, these decades, all the countless hours of critical listening, the thousands upon thousands of posts, there hasn't been an amp named The Lon.  I mean, there's Rachel.  Why no Lon?

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by SteveB on 04/19/22 at 23:32:24

I am nominating the Zkit1 to be named Lon.

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Lon on 04/19/22 at 23:49:10

Ha! Thanks, I needed a good laugh today!

I really am happy that the new amp will be named Sarah. That's a great naming!

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Steve Deckert on 04/20/22 at 02:20:28


I think we should name the treble control after Lon.  Lon control.  Don't laugh, I might just do it.  ; ).  Now, what do we have around here with a treble control?  Ironically the only thing was the TORII until MK5.  The only other things that actually have Lon controls are owned by... Lon.

Steve


Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Dr3wman on 04/20/22 at 02:25:41

;D

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Steve Deckert on 04/20/22 at 03:20:59

UPDATE Tuesday

Trying to wrap my brain around this tube trying to figure out why it sounds so different.  I couldn't figure out if it's a speed thing or what... what else could it be?  As I mentioned in my last post this amp sounds like a Zen Triode with a CSP325 in front of it. Adding a CSP3 or CSP325 in front of any of our other amplifiers adds density, body, tone.  It makes the digital source sound more like real music.

This amplifier is doing it without the preamp. So it feesl unusual to hear this kind of body without the extra parts in the signal path... ie. preamp.

It definitely sounds like it is connecting all the dots with digital recordings making me wonder if the other Decware amps are just too fast. No that's silly, besides how can a tube be slow to a point where you could hear a difference...  (mind is cooking)

The stereotypical way to connect all the dots is with syrup. We don't need a 1950's thick ass slow mushy amp. There's a lot of them out there. And trust me, the way I built this it is not slow.

So anyway I have been pondering this for the past couple days and then tonight I jumped into the listening chair and caught something that I think is a clue.

I was listening to some delicate triangles being struck in the background of a Larry Carlton piece and marveling at the animation and delicacy of it. The trail of the stick was fully and gracefully defined. I could see it, feel it, and it was different. There was just more there. When you can see the trail of the stick you know it's good, because it's during that trail -- there is no sound.  It's the time the stick is in the air between the notes and what it does that makes music, not the strike. So we're easily able to excavate down to this level, yet things sound so smooth while it's doing it.

I say that because you associate smooth with "filter" or "slower".  

Anyway, these are some things I am wrestling with trying to prepare to describe the sound. So far the one word description is: DENSITY.

Tonight during the triangle track I realized what is happening between the two amps. SE84UFO25 and SEWE300B.  

I believe what is actually happening is that the SEWE300B is like HD or even 2K resolution at 60 fps and the SE84UFO25 is like 4K at 30 fps.

Treble and bass sound so close it's really too hard to call it yet. I think the SE84UFO25 may have tighter bass, but the SEWE300B has more bass density.

It's so good, I'm going to loan my personal SE84UFO25 to Don at Cryotone for awhile so he do some experimentation with it and use it to evaluate some tubes. : )



Also, for the record, no computer was used to model any of the circuits in this amplifier. I find it faster to just build it and measure it. I find it faster because the result is real world. All 6 of the circuits I tried would model perfectly on Spice programs and in fact all 6 measured perfectly when I build them too. 5 of them sounded like crap OK but not great and really that's after I edited this paragraph.

I feel really lucky that it only took 6 times. I haven't second guessed it yet, nor heard a single thing in the past two days that would compel me to tweak or change it. I really wasn't exaggerating when I said it went from a 5 to a 19. The only thing I know of that can measure 19 on a scale of 1 to 10 is Sarah so it's fitting that we'll name it after her plus she has been my customer service hero for 17 years and quite literally without her this amp would not have been possible. Without getting into details, she is the reason why we will have a 300B amplifier.










Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Lon on 04/20/22 at 03:35:29

LOL! Thank you for developing the tone controls on the Monoblocks--I'm a proud owner and user!

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Bluemage on 04/20/22 at 04:09:55

If someone already had a CSP3 and ran in it front of this 300b amp, what would the sonic signature be like? Would it muddy the waters since the meat's already on the bone?

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by JBzen on 04/20/22 at 09:56:30

I can't recall or pinpoint hearing a 300b driven amp. I have had a couple telephone conversations with Sarah however. Spunky, adventurous, delightful flavor is my take as an audio review. A true asset for Decware. If you can make your 300b version, Steve, as pretty as Sarah, it might get you a nomination into the "Audio Hall of Fame" [smiley=smiley_up.gif]

John

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Geno on 04/20/22 at 12:59:44

The Sarah300B  :)

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Matchstikman on 04/20/22 at 18:32:31

I've wanted a 300b amp for a long time.

So, help me out here.

From what I've read, 300b amps are known for having a lush mid-range.  However, some posts here suggest that this Decware 300b won't be like those other amps, and that, sonic-wise, the Decware 300b will be tweaked to sound more like the other el34, etc. amps Decware creates.  

Am I correct on this assumption?
If not, what am I missing?

So, where is the allure of a 300b amp if it is going to sound like an el34?  In other words, why buy a Fender Twin if it is going to sound like a Marshall plexi?

What will this 300b do that the other Decware amps won't? Or can't?

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Lon on 04/20/22 at 19:35:29

Jay, I think that it boils down to what Steve says in post #69 of this thread. There he seems to say that the 300B amp sounds more similar to a SE84UFO25  with the CSP3-25 feeding it than any of the EL34 amps, and there IS a difference between that signature and the EL34 signature, and those differences are what I personally prefer, and the key word is "Density":

UPDATE Tuesday

Trying to wrap my brain around this tube trying to figure out why it sounds so different.  I couldn't figure out if it's a speed thing or what... what else could it be?  As I mentioned in my last post this amp sounds like a Zen Triode with a CSP325 in front of it. Adding a CSP3 or CSP325 in front of any of our other amplifiers adds density, body, tone.  It makes the digital source sound more like real music.

This amplifier is doing it without the preamp. So it feesl unusual to hear this kind of body without the extra parts in the signal path... ie. preamp.

It definitely sounds like it is connecting all the dots with digital recordings making me wonder if the other Decware amps are just too fast. No that's silly, besides how can a tube be slow to a point where you could hear a difference...  (mind is cooking)

The stereotypical way to connect all the dots is with syrup. We don't need a 1950's thick ass slow mushy amp. There's a lot of them out there. And trust me, the way I built this it is not slow.

So anyway I have been pondering this for the past couple days and then tonight I jumped into the listening chair and caught something that I think is a clue.

I was listening to some delicate triangles being struck in the background of a Larry Carlton piece and marveling at the animation and delicacy of it. The trail of the stick was fully and gracefully defined. I could see it, feel it, and it was different. There was just more there. When you can see the trail of the stick you know it's good, because it's during that trail -- there is no sound.  It's the time the stick is in the air between the notes and what it does that makes music, not the strike. So we're easily able to excavate down to this level, yet things sound so smooth while it's doing it.

I say that because you associate smooth with "filter" or "slower".  

Anyway, these are some things I am wrestling with trying to prepare to describe the sound. So far the one word description is: DENSITY.

Tonight during the triangle track I realized what is happening between the two amps. SE84UFO25 and SEWE300B.  

I believe what is actually happening is that the SEWE300B is like HD or even 2K resolution at 60 fps and the SE84UFO25 is like 4K at 30 fps.

Treble and bass sound so close it's really too hard to call it yet. I think the SE84UFO25 may have tighter bass, but the SEWE300B has more bass density.

It's so good, I'm going to loan my personal SE84UFO25 to Don at Cryotone for awhile so he do some experimentation with it and use it to evaluate some tubes. : )


So from this it seems it's more akin character wise to the ultimate Zen sound with larger power (and without the preamp!) than the Rachel sound or the Torii sound with or without the preamps is how I read these most recent impressions.

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by CAJames on 04/20/22 at 22:04:00


Quote:
Posted by: Matchstikman      Posted on: Today at 18:32:31

I've wanted a 300b amp for a long time...


...So, where is the allure of a 300b amp if it is going to sound like an el34?


You tell me. If the 300B amp you've wanted for a long time is the "traditional" 300B amp that wraps you and a big, lush, warm blanket of sound that is a little slow and defuse and rolled off then the Decware 300B probably isn't for you. The Decware "house sound" is fast and transparent and resolving and the 300B amp is going to share that house sound. I don't think it is going to sound "like an EL34" it is going to sound like a Decware amp with some of the 300B warm yummy goodness added. At least that is my take away from Steve's story so far.

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Steve Deckert on 04/21/22 at 02:37:31


The main prerequisite for me was that it have that same intoxicating transparency of our other amplifiers, which as you can see wasn't easy to find. Believe me the 300B sound is what this amp is about however it can't be wooly, dark, slow, or extra thick like some 300B amps and as well it can't be clinical, sterile or analytical. Believe me the tube can sound like any of these things. One of my iterations sounded like a pentode that just took a big snort of cocaine. It was so much the opposite of the classic 300B sound you would have never guessed it.

I am getting anxious to hear the real deal. The Russian 300B I expect to have less inner detail but at this point it's just a guess. I'll call WE before the weeks over and get a pair on the way.

Steve




Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by SteveB on 04/21/22 at 05:29:22

You may want to check out Elrog tubes. Handmade in Germany. Their prices are about what a pair of new production Western Electric 300b tubes would be.

https://www.elrog.com/products/

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by GroovySauce on 04/21/22 at 12:11:21

Will the amp be compatible with 300B mesh tubes?

http://www.emissionlabs.com/datasheets/EML300B-mesh2.html

520B tubes?

http://www.emissionlabs.com/datasheets/EML520B-Datasheet.html

I've tried a few NOS 5u4g rectifiers and the EML 5u4g mesh is my favorite.

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Geno on 04/25/22 at 02:21:08


Quote:
Her loveliness aside


Sarah’s loveliness must never be set aside 😊😊😊


Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by SteveB on 04/25/22 at 22:36:29

If Steve wants the real deal old school 300b....

https://tubedepot.com/products/nos-western-electric-300b-black-plate-1961-matched-pair

https://tubedepot.com/products/nos-western-electric-300b-black-plate-1964-1966-matched-pair

At $9995 a pair the new production Western Electric tubes are a bargain.  The vintage tubes have been hunted to extinction. Five years ago you could find a pair for around $3k. Now good luck finding a pair.

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by LeftyEric on 04/26/22 at 01:58:25

I’d like to propose a new waitlist, solely for this new 300b amp. Sarah deserves to be VIP!  

I kid.  

That said, I have been hoping Steve that you'd "give it a go" with a 300b, 45, or 2A3 for a few years now. I adore the 45 tube's sound, especially along with some 6NS7. That's not a new combo, and for a reason! But I'm glad you've chosen the 300b as the 6ish watts go a long way.  To my ears admittedly the 300b is the least resolute of those three (2A3, 45, 300b). So to get the Decware house sound in a 300b giving us 6 watts to play with is truly is an accomplishment!  I might find myself with one of these.

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Bluemage on 04/26/22 at 04:03:34

I'm anxious to hear Steve's updates review with a fresh pair of WE tubes!

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Brian on 04/26/22 at 05:07:24

Any review from Steve of this amp with his various speakers and sources is a review I eagerly anticipate!  Perhaps the corner horns with the Lii Silver Six might be extra interesting.

Brian

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Giggsy on 04/27/22 at 18:46:32

I am using a Bottlehead Kaiju 300B amp which I built.
It's a point to point amp and sounds marvelous once I had changed the tubes to Linlai Cossor WE300B's.

I switched out the caps and added the DC filament supply upgrade which makes it dead silent in use.

In fact I sold my Pass Labs XA30.8 once i had completed it as it has a more holographic presentation than the XA30.8.

Link : https://bottlehead.com/product/kaiju-300b-amplifier-kit/

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Billparsons on 04/29/22 at 13:43:32

Steve, is there any chance of also making this a kit?  

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Steve Deckert on 04/29/22 at 18:21:26

none.  

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Billparsons on 04/29/22 at 19:04:36

Ok. That's pretty clear.  ;D I didn't think so.

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Bluemage on 04/29/22 at 23:18:36

A cream-colored, crinkle-coated top plate with black silk-screened volume indicators would be rad.

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by DowdyPrime on 04/30/22 at 03:21:54

OK, so this is an insane question, Steve, but I'm in the process of building an equipment cabinet. What, roughly, would you say the dimensions of a 300B final product be?

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Steve Deckert on 04/30/22 at 04:11:16


Unless I scrap this design for something different, the dimensions are the same as the SE34I.6


Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Steve Deckert on 04/30/22 at 04:19:01


UPDATE 4-29-22

The WE300B tubes came in today!  Perfect timing.

I have them playing now.  It's been about 10 minutes and already I am happy.  I am hearing the music now without hearing the tube or the amplifier.  That has always been my style.

I have to say the packaging and supplied information is completely over the top! And it's a bit of a thrill to actually own a pair of these, something I never anticipated because of the price.  


Here are some pics





Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Steve Deckert on 04/30/22 at 04:19:21





Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Steve Deckert on 04/30/22 at 04:20:00







Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Steve Deckert on 04/30/22 at 04:20:55





Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Steve Deckert on 04/30/22 at 04:21:54





Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Steve Deckert on 04/30/22 at 04:22:15





Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Dr3wman on 04/30/22 at 04:28:48

Wow, I’ve never seen a close-up….. gorgeous/drool worthy.

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by spyder1 on 04/30/22 at 04:40:04

The five year warranty that comes with the WE 300B makes the initial cost easier to swallow.

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Steve Deckert on 04/30/22 at 04:52:45


It does make it easier to swallow.  These were made for telephone transmission relay stations so they were designed to be on all the time so far as I know.  5 years of leaving the amp on all the time is 43,800 hours.  If you only listen 12 hours a day 7 days a week, that would be 10 years.  If you only listen 6 hours a day 7 days a week that would be 20 years.  If you only listen 3 hours a day 7 days a week that would be 40 years.  Do you religiously listen 7 days a week?

Ask yourself how many tubes you roll in a typical amplifier over 40 years time wanting to hear the best. What would or did that cost you?  

With this there is no tube rolling.  It is the best.  You know it going in.

Steve


Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Steve Deckert on 04/30/22 at 05:11:24


Sometimes a picture is worth a thousand words.  This is tonights post:




(click to enlarge)


-Steve




Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Doug on 04/30/22 at 05:35:39

The WE300B tube packaging is simply stunning.  There is definitely a bit of good old American pride owning a pair of these beauties.  And for me, having been employed by AT&T from 1984 to 2018, having seen Golden Boy in person many times at AT&T headquarters in Dallas, and having spent my last ten years with AT&T working in the very building where WE300B tubes were made in Lees Summit, Missouri, makes it even more personal.  Here’s a little Golden Boy history……..

https://www.mrlocalhistory.org/goldenboy/

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Bluemage on 04/30/22 at 05:35:57

Wow that's one BAD MOTHER of a tube. Your amps are already beautiful as it is, but a new design with a pair of these beauts gleaming atop in all of their ethereal glow...well, that's gonna be something. Not to mention the sound...

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Steve Deckert on 04/30/22 at 05:56:40


Sorry, here's some words.  I have to catch it when it happens.


The following occurred to me when meditating on the the differences between AC and DC on the filaments of this amplifier…


WHY SOME PEOPLE SAY AC FILAMENTS SOUNDS BETTER THAN DC

If you’ve done much research into how to handle the filaments of a DHT like the 300B, you will no doubt have heard claims that those who’ve experimented with both in the same amplifier found that DC sucked the life out of the music.

Picture this in your mind; A heated cathode with direct current at a set voltage. Steady, constant… emitting electrons that are drawn to the plate which is a large area. As this warms up to a steady state, there is no doubt going to be a particular path through the vacuum between the cathode and the plate. For example, if you’ve watched plasma in a globe, the patterns may be similar in that current may wrap around the cathode before launching off it in strings or fingers, not unlike slow motion lightning.

So these fingers establish a pattern through the vacuum that have concentrations of energy at each end, one end touching the plate and the other touching the cathode.

That would be a visual of DC filaments in my mind.

Now lets switch to AC and see what happens…

Instead of a constant voltage the voltage ramps up with a gracefully perfect sine from 0 to 5 volts. This is a lot of points on the line.  So when the electrons emit from the cathode it is a different dynamic. Instead of finding a few singular launch points from a given area, the launch points are now constantly moving around and across the cathode surface. Then it reverses polarity/direction and repeats the process. It’s like mowing your yard diagonally reversing direction with every strip as opposed to blowing a crooked line in one direction only down the middle of the yard.

Of course the more evenly and the larger numbers of imaginary fingers that form between the cathode and the plate the more gracefully each will function.

AC is like a quadratic diffuser launching the energy across a 180 degree disc, where DC is more like a flashlight shining on part of a tree. The reason DC sounds like the life is sucked out of the music is because the music has to find that spot or spots on the tree that are lit in order to get into your head. Some of it doesn’t make it.

Steve

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by JBzen on 04/30/22 at 09:35:09

Your analogy makes perfectly good sense Steve.
Expanding it a bit brought to mind a comparison between straight pipes on a motorcycle as compared to one with a muffler. The noise from straight pipes will disrupt ambient serenity for all whilst diffused noise, created with a muffler cut into the pipe, preserves said peace. Straight pipes sound cool at first but quickly become annoying over time/spaced time.
John

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Giggsy on 04/30/22 at 15:25:31

It's an interesting analogy.
My question then is can you make the DC flashlight illuminate the whole tree?

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Dr3wman on 04/30/22 at 15:42:22

Giggsy-

That’s an interesting question. My guess would be the answer is yes, but you’d have to dramatically increase the size of the flashlight ?? Maybe you’re talking a spotlight at that point? Just spitballing here.

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Geno on 04/30/22 at 16:07:26

Steve,

I know you want to hear your new design sound as good as possible, thus the Western Electric tubes. But from a practicality point of view, are you going to be able to sell a lot of these amps with your go-to tubes being so expensive?

It seems to me that the more practical route would be to find a less expensive tube and voice it with that (cryotone treated?).

I just know that, for me, this amp could never even be a consideration. Just too darned expensive.

Best,

Geno

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Bluemage on 04/30/22 at 16:34:40

I can appreciate that sentiment, but if I'm getting a Decware amp, I want it to be as best as it can possibly be.

Given his amp's successful propensity for tube rolling, I would think that using various tubes wouldn't be that big of a deal. That's assuming there's an option to buy tubeless.

I'm guessing with WE tubes, the 300b would be comparable to a loaded Torii MKV. And yes, that's an expensive amp in its own rite--but not so when compared to the vast majority of "high fidelity" equipment.

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Mannytheseacow on 04/30/22 at 17:47:42

The last thing I need is more audio gear but this is a combination of high fidelity and nostalgia for me. Maybe it’s a novelty but the combination of Decware, 300b, and WE would require me to be at the top of the list to preorder. It would probably be the last gear I ever buy (I know, I know…).

My wife is born and raised in Peoria. My grandfather, the man who taught me to listen critically, solder, and appreciate all styles of music, worked his entire career, from age 16 to retirement (1932-1982) in the lab at Western Electric in Chicago. Steve, when do you start taking orders?

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by CAJames on 04/30/22 at 17:54:16


Quote:
Posted by: Geno      Posted on: Today at 16:07:26

...I know you want to hear your new design sound as good as possible, thus the Western Electric tubes. But from a practicality point of view, are you going to be able to sell a lot of these amps with your go-to tubes being so expensive?


I think most tube amps, including Decware sound better with high dollar "heritage" tubes. A lot of us use more expensive e.g. input tubes or rectifiers than the stock tubes and don't regret the upgrade. I expect the same will hold true for 300B tubes: sounds great with the Gold Lions Steve has been using but will sound even better with WEs or Takatsuki or other fancy current production and probably sound better stiill with real NOS 300Bs.

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Tony on 04/30/22 at 18:08:30

Geno said:

Just too darned expensive.

I may have missed it, but has anyone seen a cost estimate for this new amp?  I know the tube cost is high to start, but what about the "out the door" best guess?


Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by CAJames on 04/30/22 at 18:31:21

The 300B amp is based on the SE34I.6,  plus a couple hundred bucks or so for 300B tubes over EL34s and I'd guess 2200ish dollars to start.

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by GroovySauce on 04/30/22 at 18:37:46

Steve’s first post contains the following paragraph.

So in the world of 300B amplifiers the $1500 price for a pair of tubes would only be small percentage of the amplifier cost... welcome to high end audio of which we completely are but aren't.  If you do the math based on my comments we should be able to hand build a 300B amplifier without tubes starting around 3K that can carry the Decware badge with honor.  

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Steve Deckert on 05/02/22 at 01:50:24

As of this weekend I probably missed that by as much as a grand...

Make no mistake, while obviously affordable compared to higher priced 300B amps that won't sound as good, there is no attempt made to create a budget 300B amp. There are literally hundreds of them on the market right now, at every price point.  

At the same time there is no effort to make power with it. If you're looking for an 8 or 10 watt amp, look elsewhere.

My motivation (against all this pressure from great reviews) is to make the best sounding 300B experience possible. I don't believe it has to cost 30 grand or even 10 but I suspect by the time you get the WE tubes, and a decent power cord for it you'll be a touch over 5 grand.  

It is specifically voiced for the WE300B which is the worlds reference. Since all copies strive to be like the original - the amp has to be voiced for the original. That said, it will be sold without the output tubes and buyers are welcome to use what they can afford. There are some very attractive sounding 300B's from Shugang in China, their lower lest costly model. The higher dollar ones don't have the same magic according to reports, so if this is true, and it probably is, someone could get a fabulous sound for around $200 for the pair.

Please don't let his start a conversation about prices and features etc. ,etc, it's WAY TO EARLY for any of that. I haven't even committed to a chassis design and am only now evaluating what I think will be the final circuit.

Steve : )






Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Bluemage on 05/02/22 at 02:35:03


Quote:
Very cool, Steve, I'm loving the way this amp is developing. Would amplifier architecture change strictly because of a circuit modification, or does it sometimes change independently from circuit design? IE, because of your aesthetic preferences?

Additionally, you said this amp is sounding really good without a preamp. Given that this is the case, would an anniversary model preamp degrade the sound, or possibly give it a crumb of sonic improvement?

Thanks.


More often than not the answer is yes.  Once you have the circuit done, you design a chassis and layout simultaneously to effect the ultimate performance.  The current circuit is at limitations of this chassis dimension and layout.

The CSP325 did not degrade the performance of the amp, just as it dosen't n the UFO25.  It actually made it better until this weekend when a preamp was added to the amp internally.

Steve




Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Steve Deckert on 05/02/22 at 03:44:45


UPDATE 5/1/22

Tonight I am listening to what will no doubt be considered the best sounding amplifier Decware ever built. If you can live with 4 clean watts and some docile very soft hum on 100dB speakers than fasten your seat belt because it's about to get really real. When I started Decware we had Drool towels for people who heard the first Zen Triode. With this amp I'm going to have to recommend Depends.


I took a giant leap this weekend. I have been evaluating it with and without a preamp and with and without a ZROCK2 set flat. Those of you who own a ZROCK2 have no doubt found the magic spot on the dial at about 1:15 where magic happens. This position actually measures flat. It occurs before there is any bass boost or treble cut. The midrange, texture and density of a ZROCK2 set here is so over the top no one who owns one can live without it.


It should be pretty obvious that if you're going to build an amplifier for a pair of output tubes that cost $700 a piece that it's going to have to sound as good or preferably better than our current reference the SE84UFO25. So that is the mind set, and it has taken me on a journey of realization about the sound I want. For example, I start with the question 'What is the best sound I can get in here' and then look at the gear used. Well, it has basically been the SE84UFO25 paired with the CSP325 matching preamp. The preamp adds so much beauty and density to the sound that when you hear it in front of most any amplifier, you will want it. So the reality is that for the best sound, you want both. And a good power cord for each, as well as interconnects.

But as good as that is, if I really want to wet myself, I'll get out a ZROCK2 and put it in front of the preamp. I'll set it to that magic spot which is flat, and just shit my pants at what the three components create! So add another power cord, and another pair of interconnects.  As well, don't forget that you need full anniversary mods with the tube regulation inside. I'm pretty sure with the cables and shipping that's getting close to $10K.

So that is the reference, and I am directly A/B this amplifier design with that.  

When we left off, I had mentioned that the amp already sounds like it has the preamp because of the 300B tubes. It's like free density. Well it's not free, but it actually costs half as much as the preamp.

I have been enjoying it all week with no preamp and then that what if moment happened and I stuck the ZROCK2 on it. This was a mind numbing moment because it offered the same gain I was getting from my favorite settings on the CSP325, and that insane midrange dimensionality that once you hear it you can't live without it. Only now it's magnified. It's like it is in sync with the 300B and everything just shifted to sounding lucid and completely real.  

Haha, it's a good thing I'm experienced at blowing my own mind, because you can't just jump into stuff like this without a lot of seasoning.


THE PLAN

Ok here's the plan come late Friday night - measure the exact values of where I set a ZROCK2 and install one inside the amp set exactly that way. This will be the needed gain stage  giving my around 5 volts (that I will later compress) for every volt of input and put the input sensitivity just ahead of the Zen Triode SE84 series and even the SE34I. So this is what I did. I recreated the exact circuit with the exact settings inside the amplifier and added an additional tube to the front of the chassis. The tube is a 12AU7.  This compliments the 6922 signature so beautifully not to mention opens an entire world of tube rolling. A single tube will change the sound of your amp and there are millions of them on the planet.

Like a ZROCK2, the tube is at full blast all the time. The output of the tube feeds the level control which in this case is the input of the amplifier, or put another way, the volume control.  This is what we refer to as riding the gain.  The input to the amplifier is raised from 2 volts max to 10 volts and then squeezed back down to 2 volts. This creates dynamics and speed.

The EQ switch is deleted, and the adjustment control and the bypass switch all deleted. Everything is hard wired to the exact setting that is dead flat. Plus it is feed from it's own vacuum tube regulator just like the 6922 (or 6N5P/6N1P/6N6P) bringing the total of internal voltage regulator tubes to 3. These are SG5B tubes that have leads and are soldered directly into the circuit. In this case all three are directly in series with the plate resistors with no capacitor.

I guess that will make this 6 tubes on the outside and 3 tubes on the inside for a total of 9.


LOOKING BACK

I know when I started this afraid of the thickness associated with these tubes that I wanted a Zen amp style attack with only 3 parts to it doesn't get any thicker.

I learned quickly that the tube has precious little to do with it other than to make it apparent when it's there. Everything is the driver stage. It's 94% of the sound. I made it sound sharp, dull, and every other way possible until I realized that it too can be made to sound like anything you like dependent on the driver stage.

Quickly the design moved towards the Zen Triode transparency and kept the scale tilted towards neutral rather than thickness. Once there, that refreshing sense of air is back and it now gets better with a preamp or higher gain on the inputs without getting thicker.

So now that I have basically installed the ideal preamp inside the amplifier, we have two stages instead of one. That means 2 capacitors instead of 1 and 4 resistors instead of 2. OMG help! No worries, when each stage is feedback free and has this kind of transparency it is like water in a cup.  Dirty water 1/2 inch deep in a cup will not obscure the bottom. Another 1/2 inch  layer of water (2nd stage or component) begins to blur the bottom of the cup. The more you add the worse it gets. Clear water on the other hand can be added to reach the top of the cup without obscuring the bottom. And this is what has resulted. Everything just got WAY better on every level. Just proves no matter how good your source is, it could have been better.  

Right now I have the HOLO audio May dac directly connected to the amplifier, and it sounds like it did last night when I tested the ZROCK2 with it, but twice as clean. All the extra crap gone, no connectors, pots, switches, cables, cords and so on... the sound is so clean and round.

Frankly this seems like the deal of the century to me right now. Simple RCA inputs, your favorite source and 93-96dB speakers if you're triggered by soft hum, 100dB if your not.

Just to be clear, if you don't like to tube roll, want the best, want to get it done with a single component you will have the sound of a ZROCK2 with anniversary mods feeding a CSP325 and the fully anniversary modded SE84UFO series amplifiers but with 4 watts instead of 2 and with 3 times less distortion at 2 watts and up to 8 watts at 10% distortion not to mention seldom if ever having to replace the output tubes since they are likely to outlast many of us.

So it was a long two days but raining the whole time, so time well spent.  I will so put my name on this -- a 100% original circuit that sets a new benchmark.  I think the Audio Gods even raised an eyebrow on this one.






Steve









Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Steve Deckert on 05/02/22 at 03:45:04





Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Doug on 05/02/22 at 04:17:13

In response to several comments in this thread regarding 300B amps in general, and the $1,500 price tag on Western Electric 300B tubes, here’s my personal experience.  

I have owned a Cary CAD-300SEI Mk6 for nearly one year now, and up until two weeks ago it had seen only the two stock Gold Lion 300B’s and the three stock JJ Electronic 6SN7’s.  This Cary has never sounded lush, warm, slow, sluggish, or rolled off at either frequency extreme. Instead, it sounds super fast, big, airy, natural, liquid, transparent, and very musical.  Close to thirty years ago, Robert Harley, who had always been seriously opposed to low power SET amps, agreed to review the Mk1 version of the 300SEI.  Here’s part of his conclusion……….

“The 300SEI excelled in the most important areas: harmonic rightness, total lack of grain, astonishing transparency, lifelike soundstaging, and a palpability that made the instruments and voices seem to exist in the listening room.”  He also described it as having “astonishing liquidity.”

All of what Harley said is true…….especially the “astonishing transparency” comment.  But, he also commented that the amp was a bit rolled off at the frequency extremes and that it was somewhat slow.  Unfortunately, the various speakers he used in his review were totally inappropriate for use with a low power SET amplifier.  Had he used a Lowther horn system, an Altec VOTT system, Klipschorns, etc., all of which were readily available thirty years ago, there is no way he would have described the amplifier as somewhat slow.   300B amps are not inherently slow, lush, rolled off, and sluggish.  As we all know, system synergy is everything.

So, was the first version 300SEI really slow and rolled off?  Don’t know—never heard one, but I know for certain that the Mk6 version in my system is not slow or rolled off.  And relative to all other amps I have used in my main system over 40 plus years, including New York Audio Labs, Audio Research, Carver, Cary Audio (2A3 mono blocks), Eastern Electric, Vacuum Tube Logic, Aronov, and Decware (Super Zen 84 and Torii Jr), the Cary 300SEI is, by a huge margin, my favorite amp of all time. And here’s the kicker; if DC heating of the 300B filaments—which the Cary does—sucks the life out of the music, Steve’s amp is going to be nothing short of spectacular……maybe even supernatural! 

Final thoughts this evening……  Are the WE300B tubes worth the initial $1,500 outlay?  Steve’s quick cost/value analysis of the Western Electric 300B is right on the mark.  They’re actually a tremendous value.  With my WE300B’s close to the 100 hour burn-in mark, I can say without any doubt or hesitation that rolling to this $1,500 pair of tubes is worth every penny.  The music coming from my system now is glorious and beautiful beyond description.  I will never go back to KR, Sophia Electric, Gold Lion, Electro Harmonia, or any other 300B, because the Western Electrics trounce them all in every way.  Add to this a 40 year life expectancy, and you’ve got the best value vacuum tube ever made!






Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Steve Deckert on 05/02/22 at 04:37:56


I'm listening to this amp on the Zen Master Series ZF15L Baffles. I will never be the same after this. I thought I knew what musical meant. My tape machine and turntable have never even approached this. Of course I have not listened to either of those sources yet but the point is with the best I've put together in past years as far as gear combos even with the tape machine didn't sound like this. This is new territory I didn't know about. The Audio Gods are showing us a new place.

It feels like smelling a flower for the first time.

And the girth around the base of notes is like a large oak tree that makes the ground vibrate when it breaths.

 

I'll take a picture of the inside in the future now that the circuit has finished it's metamorphosis and you will see why this amplifier will be offered with only 2 inputs and none of the extra bells and whistles of the SE34I.6 that is was loosely based on.

Also I twisted the sockets 90 degrees to put the Western Electric logo facing forward. Know why I did that? Because I could! Because I know that every one of these tubes will be exactly the same. I have seen the jig for screening the tube bases.  Sadly all the other tubes I've used over the years are a little hit and miss in this department. The logos rarely ever pointing the same way.

Also I have to speak about the change to the WE300B from the Gold Lion 300B. The Gold Lion 300B was good, I made a couple YouTube sound demos of it.  But, good as it was, the entire time I have been developing the circuit for this amp I have been second guessing myself. At the end I got to a point where I knew it had to sound better than it does, and sincerely hoped for my own sanity that it would turn out to be the tube. Framed against ultra ultra high expectations, just to be clear. Anyway, as I said on Friday night, the difference was immediate and I knew right away the amplifier was what I wanted it to be.  And that was before this weekends upgrade. So definitely is the sound worth 3 times more than the $400 Gold Lions. Absolutely it is, yes.  No question. It changes things. In this amplifier anyway you will experience what the tube is all about from a Decware voicing. I honestly can't imagine any other 300B amp sounding this good because most are regurgitated circuits from the past or new math guy complicated pipe dreams that sound good and measure good but don't give you an earrection when you turn it on.

So far this evening I have been letting the algorithm pic the music so I can't get biased, and I haven't heard a single track that I wanted to skip. Everything is wrecking my brain. Never has a single amplifier without a preamp or upstream magic black boxes sounded like this, and even with them never sounded quite like this.

It makes my heart race, the hair on the back of my neck stand up, and it creates a general state of awe and disbelief because I was sure none of these recordings were this good. How is it possible? It makes me feel like the Audio Gods decided to make a 300B amp to show the 300B cult what is actually possible. Years after I'm dead it may become a sound quality standard.  

Western Electric is kicking it in the ass! We went from second guessing everything to pow, this is it, and then because of the transparency and confidence in what had been done so far, this weekend happened! I am so thrilled about this Rossville Works factory that I can't even put it into words.  

I will say that before you pay $10,000 for an original pair of WE300B, the current production is better on several key points.  One of the big ones is the coating on the plate. It's Graphene, which is a single layer of atoms perfectly distributed across the surface. It improves performance and longevity on several metrics.

There is no question that before you know what happened the USA will be making the best sounding tubes in the world and even better than we did during the world wars and Cold War that followed -- when our national security depended on it. Todays technology can make superior tubes to those holy grail NOS tubes you pay too much for.  Sit back and watch.  It won't take long.











Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Bluemage on 05/02/22 at 05:13:31

Nice write up. I'm curious to hear what sonic differences, good or bad, might be observed when running a csp325 in front of the new amp.

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Steve Deckert on 05/02/22 at 05:18:11


So far I've not heard a single noise, tick, brightness or anomaly with these new tubes. We're presently with a full 120V on the input at 413 volts on the plate and 68ma on the cathode.  Also 68V because the cathode resistor is 1000 ohms.

I will let these break in for another few days or a week, and then make some videos.  The sound will be undeniable.

Happy listening!  

Steve  


Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Steve Deckert on 05/02/22 at 05:47:16

My guess is that the CPS325 leveled against the HOLO Audio MAY feeding a ZBIT feeding the amp is that with a lesser source and absence of a ZBIT the CSP325 will greatly improve the sound.

Steve


Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Steve Deckert on 05/02/22 at 05:52:46


These tubes are wrecking me in this amp.


Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by BicycleJoe on 05/02/22 at 07:02:13

Excelsior!

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by RJR on 05/02/22 at 12:30:38

I noticed that the meters are Western Electric as depicted in one of the most recent pics.  Since the tubes will be WE300B, very nice compliment.


Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Lon on 05/02/22 at 14:00:05

Steve's salesmanship is set on high and really tempting many of us I suppose.

I sit here listening to my wonderful system and saying to myself "I don't need more." I'd have to sell my amps and ZROCK2 and preamp just to get close to affording this amp and those tubes and I shudder at the thought! Possible in the future. . . and then the long wait. . . There's a sort of torment associated with being deeply into audio!

I am so glad that Steve has been able to create this space for himself to explore and discover these new audio territories.

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Bluemage on 05/02/22 at 14:18:33


Exciting stuff, Steve, I can't wait to hear the videos! I love it when you experience audio breakthroughs!

In regard to your comment about a lesser source: in the case of a ZP3 + turntable + Decware 300b, a CSP325 in the chain would improve (rather than muddle) the sound? I presume gain riding and the like would provide sonic benefits, even though they're not needed as much as they might have been with the UFO?

The only reason I'm so interested in this is due to my current order. I have a ZP3, csp325, and MKV on order. I'm just wondering if I hypothetically switched my amp from the Torii to the 300b, if keeping the csp325 would make the sound even better--even if the sonic improvements are small.

I guess I'm just smitten with your preamp's design, and am looking for justification in acquiring it!

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by CAJames on 05/02/22 at 16:23:34

A great preamp is an advantage in any system, esp. it you listen to records.

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Bluemage on 05/02/22 at 18:11:09

That's kinda what I was thinking!

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Steve Deckert on 05/03/22 at 03:34:21


A CSP325, like the ZTPRE, can not be detected in the signal from a transparency perspective.  It will just make your source sound better and give you more adjustability and voicing control.


Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Steve Deckert on 05/03/22 at 03:45:02


GAIN STRUCTURING
 
As I mentioned before this amp does not require a preamp to sound it's best.  This is because I basically put one inside it.  I did this to take control of A) the quality of the preamp and B) setting the gain structure perfectly for best sound.

I thought I would create an illustration of the magic gain structure for this amp, which is not that different from all of our amplifiers, except that on those you need a preamp or similar device to make it happen and know how to set it right.  The only exception is the Mini Torii which also has it's own preamp inside.



When you get these ratios just right, magic happens.  

To give you some contrast, the typical hi-fi high power amplifiers of today are typically set up with 1 volt input sensitivity or less so that you have to turn it up to get it to bloom and have dense sound.








Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Bluemage on 05/03/22 at 04:04:43

That was actually quite helpful. Thanks for the illustration, Steve! Man, I can't wait to see this beauty in its final form. Have you blown the minds of any Decware family (employees) yet, or have the audio gods guided you to keep it to yourself for now?

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by BicycleJoe on 05/03/22 at 11:04:15

Steve wrote "thought I would create an illustration of the magic gain structure for this amp, which is not that different from all of our amplifiers, except that on those you need a preamp or similar device to make it happen and know how to set it right."

Good morning Steve.  
Does this apply to the 34.6I and by similar device does the ZP3 fulfill the synergy needed or is a CSP325 the way to maximize the gain structure ?
Thanks
PS is the type of gain structure your using aka a cascading gain structure?

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Vinylleroy on 05/03/22 at 13:00:25

Nice info on the development of the amp Steve!  [smiley=icqlite20.png]

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Steve Deckert on 05/03/22 at 22:41:00



Quote:
That was actually quite helpful. Thanks for the illustration, Steve! Man, I can't wait to see this beauty in its final form. Have you blown the minds of any Decware family (employees) yet, or have the audio gods guided you to keep it to yourself for now?


In our shop no one has time to wander around so I am pretty sure not a single sole knows this amplifier is in the works other than my wife and of course Sarah!

But that brings up daytime testing - which has been really impressing me.  Daytime testing means passively listening to it from the everywhere in the shop as I work while streaming whatever Roon radio comes up with.  Normally this is one of those things where some days are better than others depending on --who knows what?  It usually involves stopping the music and jumping to a different track at least three or four times a day., or hooking up a preamp and even then it still sometimes happens.  With this amp, there is no warm up, or wait for the right track, from it's first breath it is just glorious sound.  The kind of sound you normally get with your favorite tracks and plenty of fidgeting, even maybe some tube rolling.  The kind of sound that when you get it that right, you really want someone else to come and hear it so that they can be witness that it happened, as we all know it will be gone until the next time it visits.  With this amp, it came to visit and never left.  Really remarkable.  My only complaint is that it's so distracting trying to figure out "how does it do that" with regards to the sound all day and asking myself does this mean success or failure.  Success that it sounds so good or failure that nothing else is as good at what it does.  I know it has me questioning what I thought 300B tubes sounded like.



Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Steve Deckert on 05/03/22 at 23:04:36



Quote:
Good morning Steve.  
Does this apply to the 34.6I and by similar device does the ZP3 fulfill the synergy needed or is a CSP325 the way to maximize the gain structure ?
Thanks

PS is the type of gain structure your using aka a cascading gain structure?



No, the cascading label used in reference to gain stages seems to relate to guitar amp overdrive and distortion.  This approach is just what I find sounds good.


Both the ZP3 and the CSP3 have a fair amount of this gain structuring as part of the design.  On the CSP3 some of it is adjustable.  

Decware has always approached gain structures with a different take, in so much as we prefer to 1) always have an input level control (gain control) on every amplifier and 2) keep our amplifiers input sensitivity between 1 and 2 volts.  We do this because it sounds better.  Industry standard is 1 volt and less, or so it would seem, and that is with amps that are typically 100's of watts.  In main stream hifi you have a 2 volt source and a high power amplifier setting there turned up to full blast and a preamp that is used only to turn the signal down to a fraction of a volt so the amp won't get too loud and blow up your speakers.  This only sounds good when it's is cranked up loud.  The rest of the time it sounds lean, dry, flat, boring, tedious.



Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Bluemage on 05/04/22 at 00:04:25

Wow, it's quite remarkable that passive listening is so profound. You're really making me think about changing my Torii MKV to the new 300b, well, assuming it would properly pressurize a med/ large living room with Cornwall IVs.

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Steve Deckert on 05/04/22 at 00:30:01

For me passive listening can more telling of what is right or wrong with the music because you are not distracted by the sound stage or imaging or stark reality of standing there in front of it. Of course in an untreated room where people live this may not hold true. When I listen passively it is 90% reflected energy which is to say I am listening to the room not the speakers. If the room sounded like crap or had its own coloration I wouldn't be able to hear anything through that...

Steve






Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Bluemage on 05/04/22 at 02:44:51

Speaking of active/passive listening, I'm mind-boggled at how different my system (Sherwood vintage tube amp) sounds when the sun goes down. Yes, some of it is psychosomatic, some of it is state of mind, quietness, yada yada, but the solar interference you've spoken about seems to be pretty intense. I have the Decware power conditioner on order with my system, and even 1/2 the quality of night listening during the day would be sublime.

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by will on 05/04/22 at 03:15:56

I almost never listen "passively" no matter where I am in the room or house. That said I too find listening mainly to the room reflected sound over direct sound, is more clearly telling of balance issues. Lots of times I can get tuning to sound great in "seat," or anywhere in the rest of the listening room area. But in the room, with the big and complete sound, for me there is some relatively notable tuning flexibility, many subtle balance shifts that can  sound really good in the room, not being "right" on final examination.

My final and most telling test is listening from my hot bath 20+ ft down the hall from the speaker back plain, in the opposite direction the speakers are facing, and the speaker backs having a wall between them and the hall... So it is pretty much all reflected room sound. From the tub, the sound is not as visceral as in the room, but beautiful and complete when right, and totally revealing all subtle imbalances... Maybe spectral balance is weighted a touch toward bass, making the mids a little too warm and thick, hiding some of the finest detail and space... Or the mids could be a touch hard/focussed... Or just listening to harmonics and decays, the space and harmonics might be more mid or bass oriented rather than even from bass to highest highs.

In my room there is just more tolerance for these and other imbalances, but if the music does not sound totally right and engaging from the tub...easy to diagnose from the there... when I fix the issues in the room, it sounds better there also, and always works best across more recording balances.

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by jec3504 on 05/04/22 at 05:04:23

Very good conversation, You all are making great points on this subjects. Thanks

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Bluemage on 05/04/22 at 14:30:25

Question: if someone already owned a ZROCK2 and ran it with the 300B, would the results be disastrous? Would the redundant implementation allow the user to tailor the frequency response as they normally would, or would this doubling be futile?

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Lon on 05/04/22 at 15:08:25

MY guess is that for those in untreated or barely-treated rooms the component would still be quite beneficial. And my experience of running both a ZTPRE and a CSP3 in the signal path in a system is that here's extra goodness that can be had.

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Bluemage on 05/04/22 at 15:36:08

Thanks, Lon. In the past months, I've been perusing many hifi forums, and at least 5 times, I've read a thoughtful, informed response to someone's question, only to find that the user name is yours! And not on Decware forums, Audiokarma, and various others. You're all over the online hi-fi world, my friend!

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Lon on 05/04/22 at 15:42:48

Well, I try to be helpful. Thanks.

Lost my Dad yesterday so that was a welcome boost.

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Steve Deckert on 05/04/22 at 16:04:50


Lon, Sorry for your loss.   It's a strange feeling to loose a father.   : (.  

At least you still have us : ).

Steve

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Bluemage on 05/04/22 at 16:23:20

I'm also very sorry to hear of your loss, Lon. That's gotta be very tough. You'll be in my prayers today, and I'm hoping that some manner of sonic beauty may help lighten the load.

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by jec3504 on 05/04/22 at 16:24:47

Lon being a caretaker for a father in his final days is a special, loving and selfless duty. May you father rest in peace. Your a good son and man.  Condolences to you and your family.

Joseph

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Steve Deckert on 05/04/22 at 16:30:07


I have posted some videos of the now finished Decware SEWE300B amplifier on YouTube.  

Here is a link to the playlist including the first two videos before the amplifier was finished.  https://youtu.be/lTrlE7k5y2Y

I made another video of the track used in the first video, but now with the completed amp for comparisons.

Also there are some great acoustic tracks that follow that.

Someone wanted to hear 'Tool' so the last video is Tools 'Fear Inoculum'.  It sounded great, best I've heard the big open baffles ZF15L rock out yet. I am still listening to it this morning. Just amazed at how good this band sounds on this combination!



Listening to Invincible at the moment and the drums are just amazing.  For metal, these guys manage to maintain a lot of horizontal headroom and space.  Really amazing to hear it sound like this.

Steve




Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Dr3wman on 05/04/22 at 16:35:05

Sorry to hear the news Lon, I hope you can find solace in some lovely music.

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Bluemage on 05/04/22 at 18:16:06

Wow. These sound clips are mind-roasting. Excellent job on the circuit design, Steve. Have you outdone yourself? Is this the NEW reference??

Really thinking about changing my order from the MKV to this!

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Tony on 05/04/22 at 20:39:14


Lon,

I was saddened to read of the loss of your father.  Please accept my sympathies for you and your family.

Tony

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by jec3504 on 05/04/22 at 21:51:30

Sounds fantastic on the big baffles. Time to start building some quadratic diffusers.

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Steve Deckert on 05/05/22 at 04:51:47


Yes, the pairing with the ZF15L baffles are out of this world good. It will be hard if not impossible to best this combination. That said, I'm off to try - leave no stone unturned.

I listened to the entire 80 minute album of Tool today and I have to say it was the best recorded metal group I have ever heard. Just outstanding with this combination. It was so good I'm still craving more. Going to any other speaker will not be the same because nothing has the hit of the ZF15L speakers. They make the music get serious real fast. It caught me by surprise because before I knew what happened someones YouTube request caused me to find myself transported to an audiophile quality heavy metal concert where not a single note sounded bad and things were occasionally pushed to a point of complexity that I wouldn't have thought anything could reproduce it without shifting into the dreaded sounds like crap zone...  

But, this amp is so disarmingly smooth that I thought the highs were rolling off a bit, that must be it...  They aren't.  Still, I really wanted to hear the very top end of this amplifier, so I have flipped the room and am now listening to it on my house speakers. There is no better tweeter that I have heard or midrange for that matter so they are a great tool for measuring amplifiers. Also the imaging is like 4K compared to everything else being HD.

So far the sound is just exquisite.  Prior to hooking these up, I tried the Tube Tots, but didn't like the placement where I had them, or something because they just sounded a bit rolled off on the top. Or maybe it was just the shock of changing from the ZF15L. I will revisit that again.

I can tell I'll be on the house speakers for the rest of the week. I'll make some more videos this weekend if I get time. The resolution is breathtaking... everything is so musical and juicy. It is wonderful to hear so much resolution in the top end as the ZF15L are rolled off by 15KHz and I was hoping the amp didn't sound that way on everything!

I can't really speak to how this amp compares with our other offerings, other than the midrange liquidity is more obvious. I am still wiring my brain for this new sound. It takes weeks. This sound doesn't fit into my processor and it is making it impossible to fully ... process. I am wired to the core for the Zen Triode SE84 sound using that wonderfully fast and neutral sounding video tube. The amp you really can't hear. I can definitely hear this amp... OR is it that what I think I can hear is actually there and I couldn't hear it before.  ee, this is processor burning out it's cooling fan.

I don't know why I let you guys get me into to this crap ; )

Hell, I'm still trying to figure out how much of this is the driver stage (almost all of it like I suspect) or the output tube. The problem is that despite being based on the same SRPP stage I use in Rachael, it's not the same. The 300B takes a LOT more drive than an EL34, 6L6 or even KT88. So the gain structure I showed you will not work the same in any of our other amplifiers making it impossible to know what they would sound like with the same driver stage.  Like all of my stuff, the circuit slowly builds itself.











Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by jec3504 on 05/05/22 at 05:06:21

Steve said,


Quote:
I don't know why I let you guys get me into to this crap ; )


Don't blame me I'm just along for the ride.

Fascinating ride it is. House speakers should be interesting next stop.

Bluerage said,


Quote:
Really thinking about changing my order from the MKV to this!


Over the last 13 months I've wanted at some point 3 different amps. Now there's this amp. Fascinating ride for sure!

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by BicycleJoe on 05/05/22 at 12:33:23

Steve how did you record the YouTube videos, what kind of Mic's were you using and what kind of placement? I listened through headphones and I thought it was very well recorded for YouTube video. Although the high-end on one particular recording the percussion at times sounded like a click track to me. Is there another platform that you could upload Hi-Rez recordings that won't compress on playback. Perhaps without video just the music, I'm not up on the technology but there must be someone who knows what platforms allow uploads and playback with Flac Files. Did you ever make any recordings of the 34._ I?
I searched all of your video's on YT.


Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Lon on 05/05/22 at 18:23:58

I'm in for one of the 300B Sarahs. I'll make it work somehow.

So wild that it was a 300B amp that led me to Decware. At first I didn't understand why Steve wasn't at all intending to offer one. Then I got my first Zen amp. . . and understood why.

It's a whole different Decware world now 25 years later though.

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by JOMAN on 05/05/22 at 18:40:39

Lon,

I follow this thread periodically and I just noticed that you lost your father, very sorry to hear and my sincerest condolences.  I lost mine last year, June 25th and still working through it.  

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by 4krow on 05/05/22 at 19:06:48

Lon,

 I didn't realize this loss either. I am so sorry. I know that you have devoted your life to your parents' care. I have only done a fraction of what you did that way.
 I think of my father often and with admiration.

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Doug on 05/05/22 at 19:42:31

Over the last 13 months I've wanted at some point 3 different amps. Now there's this amp. Fascinating ride for sure! —  jec3504

jec3504,
I’ve wanted a Decware 300B amp since I gave up my 2a3/300b monoblocks nearly 9 years ago, but the truth is, I never actually thought it would happen. I finally broke down and bought another 300B amp last summer, and I love it’s music making ability, but I’d love to listen to Steve’s new creation in my own system and compare the two amps.  Currently I’m trying set aside common sense and logic in order to justify spending another $4K, $5K or $6K on this Decware 300B amp.  

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Lon on 05/05/22 at 20:11:15

Thanks gentlemen. My Dad was a fantastic man and the outpouring of love and appreciation is phenomenal and sustaining us. We drew up a brief bio and it surprises even us. We're all doing well and celebrating his life and the fact that we had such wonderful parents.

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by acousticsguru on 05/05/22 at 21:12:12

My heartfelt condolences, Lon!

Greetings from Switzerland, David.

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by jec3504 on 05/05/22 at 21:29:31

Doug,

Good luck with your dilemma. I'm very short on the wait list. So the 300B amp won't be an option for me this time around. Honestly haven't heard a tube amp in almost 45 years. Enjoying Steve's developmental threads. Just remember it's only money.

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Lon on 05/05/22 at 22:11:49

Thank you.

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Bluemage on 05/06/22 at 01:31:03

What does the finished product measure in at? Is it 6.5 watts?

Thanks.

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Geno on 05/06/22 at 02:30:16

Steve posted this on the previous page on this thread:


Quote:
Tonight I am listening to what will no doubt be considered the best sounding amplifier Decware ever built. If you can live with 4 clean watts and some docile very soft hum on 100dB speakers than fasten your seat belt because it's about to get really real.

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by canonken on 05/06/22 at 02:33:37

I'm surprised WE wouldn't send the tubes for free knowing what's coming!

Love the updates, this is really exciting!

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Bluemage on 05/06/22 at 02:35:54

Thanks, just read back through and found that. Do you know what "2 watts and up to 8 watts at 10% distortion," means, specifically? I get a bit befuddled by values and tube watt esoterica. Is the 2 Watts at normal playing level, and the 8watts cranked to max, or is the 8 watts during peaks, such as orchestral music?

Thanks.

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by DancingSea on 05/06/22 at 03:13:19

Blessings Lon!

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Steve Deckert on 05/06/22 at 04:07:19


The 300B amp has cleaner output at 2 watts than the Zen Triode SE84 or SE34 series amplifiers.  It stays that way until around 4 watts at which point the distortion begins to rise with output.  So 6 watts with higher distortion and 8 watts with much higher distortion.  I look at this as a very kind (soft) clipping characteristic that would allow the amplifier to generate more peak power than the SE34.6 which is rated at 6 watts.  

For anyone thinking about getting this instead of a TORII let me remind you there was probably a good reason why you choose 20 watts over 4 to 6 watts.


Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Brian on 05/06/22 at 04:10:34

Hello, Lon
I send you love, and I pray for healing for yourself and for your family.
Brian

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Randy in Caintuck on 05/06/22 at 04:25:44



Hi Lon,
My heartfelt condolences for your loss .....
My dad and I were partners for many years in a small wholesale distribution company before I got into the IT industry.
We had breakfast together five days a week and he was not only a wonderful father, but a friend and a wealth of knowledge.
He passed away several years ago and it is a rare day that I don't think about him fondly.
My very best wishes,
Randy


Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Lon on 05/06/22 at 11:56:07

Thank you Randy. A great father is such a blessing!

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Lon on 05/06/22 at 11:59:28

Brian, thank you so much.

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by jec3504 on 05/06/22 at 13:16:40

Steve said,


Quote:
For anyone thinking about getting this instead of a TORII let me remind you there was probably a good reason why you choose 20 watts over 4 or 6.


Just noticed piezoman been quiet lately.

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Lon on 05/06/22 at 13:24:08

A good point. In a similar manner there is a good reason that I choose SET or SEP over Push Pull (after living with both).

The great thing about the evolved Decware stable of components is the range of choice!

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by RJR on 05/06/22 at 18:55:00

Tool is a great band.  You must listen to Chocolate Chip Trip.  What a great song and expansive soundstage, at least on my system.  Just sounds fantastic.

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Greg C on 05/06/22 at 22:01:34

….Lon, sorry to hear of your loss…I know the feeling …I lost my dad a while back and still feel a emptiness in my heart

Plus…I think I speak for everyone on this forum, you are a very knowledgeable person when it comes to the operation and experimentation of Decware gear …thanks for the reading

Greg

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Lon on 05/06/22 at 22:05:51

Thanks Greg. Sorry to hear you too have lost your father. We are both lucky to have had one in our lives. (My wife's father abandoned her and her nine siblings when she was 9--never to be seen or heard from again; I'm so glad she got to know, love and be loved by my father).

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by slop on 05/06/22 at 23:50:35

Pretty excited to read about the Sarah! WE tubes are wonderful. Here is my most beautiful sounding WE 421a dual triode

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Kamran on 05/07/22 at 00:52:26

Sorry for your loss Lon. May your father Rest In Peace.

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Lon on 05/07/22 at 11:16:39

Thanks Kamran.

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Matchstikman on 05/07/22 at 17:49:20

Okay, after reading all about the new 300b offering I have two questions.

What is the price point?  Or is this one of those things where if I have to ask I can't afford it?

Second question, how do I get on the list?

I'm not a 300B type, per se.  I lean more towards power and big sound, but there are times when something like a 300b would fit the bill. And, if I am going to get a 300b it is either Decware's 300b or Cary's 300b.  I would assume that both of these amps sound different from each other, so we'll see where the coin falls.

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Lon on 05/07/22 at 18:09:11

My PM to you has the details that you ask for.

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by DancingSea on 05/07/22 at 19:04:12

As an aside, upstream Steve mentioned that the ZRock2 that he's putting in the 300B is set at the "1:15" position where the bass and treble are not adjusted, but rather flat.

I'm trying to figure out what "1:15" means.  Is that the 1 o'clock position plus a wee bit more?  Or is at the 3/4 mark?  On an analog clock, 1:15 would have the little hand slightly past 1, and the big hand on the 3, which would be the 3/4 spot on the dial.

Clarification welcomed and appreciated.

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by will on 05/07/22 at 19:28:59

I am thinking he is talking about 1:15 o'clock. The unity gain position changes with different tubes and even a little with different recordings... but a little past one o'clock is a pretty good average for 12AU7s with mine.

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Lon on 05/07/22 at 19:33:16

That would be my guess as well. If you look at the picture in the manual 1:15 or so as I picture the little hand at that time is about the top of the "Green Zone" where he indicates the EQ tailoring happens.

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by DancingSea on 05/07/22 at 19:53:48

The manual states:

"Once it is at the half way position, it achieves unity gain which means you can flip the bypass switch on and off and hear no change in volume or frequency balance. As you rotate past 50% the EQ slowly begins to come in."

That implies that the point where there's no bass boost is at high noon, not 1:15.  In fact, he shows 50% as being at high noon.  Or setting clock lingo aside (which I find confusing) and using percent instead (and I pulled out an actual clock for this), the 1:15 o'clock would be at 62.5%.  Right?  The beginning of the "green zone"?

With the manual talking percentages, and Steve talking analog clocks, it can get confusing!!!!

But upstream Steve said that 1:15 is where there's no bass boost or treble attenuation.  Yet in the manual he states that bass boost begins at high noon (50% in the drawing).  I see a contradiction there.

Perhaps Steve can chime in and explain what he means by 1:15 o'clock both in terms of percents (to align with the manual, which I assume is at the start of the green zone), and how that correlates to the actual bass boost beginning at 50% (high noon).

If the 300B ZR2 module is supposed to not boost the bass, then wouldn't it be set to high noon instead of 1:15 o'clock??

ZRock-gate has begun!

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Lon on 05/07/22 at 20:02:03

Boy oh boy I'm bowing out of this one. I'll let Steve answer. I've no stomach for this type of round and round. ;) I just take Steve's word for it when he says "1:15 is the sweet spot."

Here is what he said: " Those of you who own a ZROCK2 have no doubt found the magic spot on the dial at about 1:15 where magic happens. This position actually measures flat. It occurs before there is any bass boost or treble cut. The midrange, texture and density of a ZROCK2 set here is so over the top no one who owns one can live without it."

That's where he feels the magic begins before serious EQ begins is what I get from this. For me the magic begins about 4:00. But I know I'm different.

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by DancingSea on 05/07/22 at 20:09:54

Haha.  Lon, you misunderstand.  I'm joking about the "gate" part.  None of this is particularly serious, and certainly I'm not accusing Steve of anything.  Simply seeking good natured clarification.

I'm just trying to figure out where the 300B ZR2 is set as there's a contradiction in terms of where the bass boosting begins.  Manual says 50% (high noon), and Steve (to my understanding) has written that it begins at 1:15 (or 62.5%).

I'm also not entirely clear what is meant by "1:15" because the manual talks in percentages, not clocks.  Therefore clarification would be helpful.

And I think prospective 300B buyers would like to know whether or not the amp has a built in bass boost.  If it's set at 1:15, that implies that, per the ZR2 manual, there is some bass boost at 1:15.

My ZR2 happy place varies from noon to 3 o'clock depending on the recording.  Would like to cast my vote now for a ZR2 remote control...
[smiley=dankk2.gif]

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Lon on 05/07/22 at 20:35:25

I didn't misunderstand you. I just thought I understood what Steve meant and didn't see the worth of the fuss. We're all different, I just don't find this sort of back and forth and questioning what Steve says over and over as amusing as I guess others do. I should have not bowed in and will bow out.

Here's what I think: He says 1:15 actually measures flat, and so I assumed he thought it didn't sound flat but did measure flat. There's a "magic" there before the EQ really kicks in, and I think that is the essence of the ZROCK2 in his estimation. Perhaps he updated his knowledge and measurements since he wrote the manual and manuals rarely get updated when they should on this website, that's just something I've come to accept--we'd rather Steve do other things.

I do think by "1:15" he means the top of the green zone where the EQ really begins. I'd agree that is where with most tubes I use in the ZROCK2.

I'm less concerned about this because I KNOW that I will/would use a ZROCK2 with this amp anyway--I use it with every system and with every change I make in my systems. It has become an essential element to my listening satisfaction.

Over and out. Hope Steve clarifies.

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Bluemage on 05/07/22 at 21:00:22

Would it be silly to keep my TORII order, AND order a 300b? Would it be excessive, gratuitous, and indulgent, or somewhat justifiable? I've recently taken a deep dive into jazz, and can't get the idea of the 300b with WE tubes out of my head.

That's not to say that the wife and I don't enjoy music that might not fully befit from SETs--80s synth pop (wife) lots of grunge, dynamic rock, etc. I've found that there are few things in life that do everything great. Many things come close, but the Swiss-Army approach rarely leads to full satisfaction.

That said, I also don't want to get carried away, and/or foolish.

Can someone talk me down from the ledge? Or better yet...give me a little push?

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by DancingSea on 05/07/22 at 21:06:08

Lon.  Not worth the fuss?  Hahaha, the life blood of these forums is discussing things like this!

By "bowing out" it seemed you were somehow offended by the inquiry.  By saying you "misunderstood me", I was not referring to the technical nature of the inquiry, but rather the spirit in which it is conducted.  My "ZRock2-gate" comment was meant in jest, and that's the part that seemed to be misunderstood.

My question is a reasonable one.  There is a contradiction between the ZR2 manual and Steve's comments here about 1:15.  I find it relevant both in terms of the ZR2 on it's own, as well as about how the 300B is setup.

Steve will easily be able to clarify that contradiction.  And that's a good thing.

The bowing out part seems to imply that you've come across something of great distaste and not worthy of your genuinely knowledgable time.  I find that to be a peculiar reaction as these sorts of technical questions are very common in audiophile forums.  I agree that when conducted in an off-putting spirit that such things can devolve into a mess.

But they don't have to.  And this is a relevant question.  One that Steve can easily clarify.

A new product is being launched.  A potentially tremendous product.  Having customer questions and concerns addressed is a vital part of any business.

With a good spirit,
John

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by DancingSea on 05/07/22 at 21:09:08

Bluemage wrote:


Quote:
Can someone talk me down from the ledge? Or better yet...give me a little push?


Oh, just buy it!  Will only know if you give it at try.  With the 30 day return policy, and the 3 year wait making the used market mega-hot, you have no risk.  And plenty of time to save up and or change your mind and receive a refund of your deposit.

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Lon on 05/07/22 at 21:10:58

John, there may be a portion and faction of this forum that "is all about" this sort of topic but I think it's a smaller part than you do, and it's not the part I enjoy more than others. I'm just speaking for myself, others can have differing opinions and may even have an answer that will satisfy you,  though I think only Steve will. And by "bowing out" I just mean what I said--I'm less amused by this sort of topic than you are, whether the discussion is in a good-spirited way or not. I and it may be better served if I just stay away.

I hope Steve clarifies this for you. It's either less unclear to me or less important to be clarified for me or both. We're different. It has nothing to do with the value of my time. The entire internet is a place where I mostly waste time. Or hide away to try to feel better as is the case today.

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by DancingSea on 05/07/22 at 21:14:40

Lon, has your Dave's Picks 42 arrived?  It's a good one.  Play it and feel the comforting vibes flow forth!

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Lon on 05/07/22 at 21:19:10

Yes it has come. I haven't played any of the Dick Pick's from the last few years. I subscribed but my heart is not really into it, I've just stuck them on the shelf. I have been listening to the Dead less and less. I revisited some Europe '72 shows last month and I went through the last big box set with some interest, and the deluxe editions of the official canon. But I don't have time to really sit down and listen today or tomorrow and I have other things I wish to listen to ahead of any Dick's Pick.

I don't really get "comforting vibe" from the Dead. I used to get a lot more excitement than I do but when it's a great show and I'm wanting to go along I find that listening for a new interpretation of the song, Jerry's improvisation and that night's interaction between the members of the band to be the draw. So more "involvement" vibe than "comforting."

Sorry. I've had a very far from routine week and I'm out of sorts.

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Lon on 05/07/22 at 21:37:39


Bluemage wrote on 05/07/22 at 21:00:22:
Would it be silly to keep my TORII order, AND order a 300b? Would it be excessive, gratuitous, and indulgent, or somewhat justifiable? I've recently taken a deep dive into jazz, and can't get the idea of the 300b with WE tubes out of my head.

That's not to say that the wife and I don't enjoy music that might not fully befit from SETs--80s synth pop (wife) lots of grunge, dynamic rock, etc. I've found that there are few things in life that do everything great. Many things come close, but the Swiss-Army approach rarely leads to full satisfaction.

That said, I also don't want to get carried away, and/or foolish.

Can someone talk me down from the ledge? Or better yet...give me a little push?

I personally find a system generally handles all music well for me . . . or doesn't sound good overall with any music. I find that those you list as potentially less suited for SET can be mesmerizing on the right SET system.

The practice of "adding to an order" seems to have been halted, so if you order a 300B today you'd get the Torii first. So if you then get a 300B you can make a comparison and make an educated and informed decision which to keep or to keep both.

Win win for you and Decware.

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by jec3504 on 05/07/22 at 22:20:16

Bluemage said,


Quote:
Can someone talk me down from the ledge? Or better yet...give me a little push?


No need Bluemage, you just fell into a rabbit hole. All you need is a budget, plan and a flashlight.

Glad to see you contributing to the forum today DancingSea.    ;)


Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Bluemage on 05/07/22 at 23:17:38

Hahaha, I suppose I can live with that!

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Bluemage on 05/07/22 at 23:40:54

Speaking of using 2 amps and 1 preamp in a single speaker (pair) system, does the Decware switching box allow for such a thing? I don't even know the logistics of such a thing. I'm guessing the speakers and 2 amps all running into a single box with an a/b switch for amps. Switching speaker connections every time you want to switch amps would be a pain.

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by CAJames on 05/08/22 at 00:39:30


Quote:
Posted by: Bluemage      Posted on: Yesterday at 21:00:22
Would it be silly to keep my TORII order, AND order a 300b?..

...That's not to say that the wife and I don't enjoy music that might not fully befit from SETs--80s synth pop (wife) lots of grunge, dynamic rock, etc...


Did you listen to Steve's Tool demo on Youtube? I thought it was pretty impressive. Seems to me like the 300B amp rocks pretty hard. So do my UFOs, when the mood strikes me and I can crank them up.

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Edsonic on 05/08/22 at 00:42:09

Before we send off a whistle-blower missive to The Star or The Globe-


All EQs have make-up gain. This restores what the pass filter reduced back to its former level, thereby boosting the frequency band that wasn't reduced to a higher level than before.

I think it's possible (in fact likely) that the make-up gain in the ZR2 is at about 1dB or so (above unity gain) before the low pass filter is nudged into action.  


Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Bluemage on 05/08/22 at 00:46:30

I did hear the Tool demo, it was very impressive!

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by DancingSea on 05/08/22 at 01:03:05

Bluemage - regarding to buy or not, we are a bunch of crackheads and not the best consultants.  We always advise to buy!

My CryoTone tubes shipped today!  One pill makes you larger, and one pill makes you small….  It’s actually the “White Rabbit” hole.
:D

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Bluemage on 05/08/22 at 01:32:33

Haha, I'm convinced! Steve, make a 300B order page already! I need to file a secondary order, you sly ol' fox!

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by jec3504 on 05/08/22 at 01:56:56


Quote:
Haha, I'm convinced! Steve, make a 300B order page already! I need to file a secondary order, you sly ol' fox!


The day that page goes up customer service will be swamped.


DancingSea,

Looking forward to your careful analysis of the Cryotone tubes.

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Edsonic on 05/08/22 at 02:16:25


"The day that page goes up customer service will be swamped."

The day that DW 300B review goes up on yuutuube the wait list will become the Godot list.

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by thethanimal on 05/08/22 at 03:26:43

Steve, I’m glad you found your way to TOOL. I’ve been a big fan for 20 years. “Invincible” is really the demo track off that album I think; at the end of the song if your system is dialed in the heads of the floor toms should be visibly vibrating in front of your speakers as your gut vibrates along with them. “Chocolate Chip Trip” is great for soundstaging and the other tracks are great for really rocking, but the drum sound and impact on “Invincible” is killer.

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Bluemage on 05/08/22 at 05:43:11

I bet Steve's getting close to the 100 hour mark on the 300. I'm looking forward to an updated report about how the amp's opening up as everything gets properly run in.

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by JBzen on 05/08/22 at 13:20:29


Quote:
I took a giant leap this weekend. I have been evaluating it with and without a preamp and with and without a ZROCK2 set flat. Those of you who own a ZROCK2 have no doubt found the magic spot on the dial at about 1:15 where magic happens. This position actually measures flat. It occurs before there is any bass boost or treble cut. The midrange, texture and density of a ZROCK2 set here is so over the top no one who owns one can live without it.


DancingSea,

"dial", "measures", no clarifications needed. Interesting what a 1:15 search on the web produces.

I think Steve had a stroke of genius with the Zrock implementation in his 300b.

Now a isolated remote controlled Zrock dial would be a good item to hash out!

John

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Steve Deckert on 05/08/22 at 18:07:15


1:15 refers to the position of the hour hand on an analog clock dial and that is about where the green zone starts in the manual.



No worries about a dial, there won't be one.  In fact there will likely be no adjustments whatsoever unless I change my mind as I spend more time with it.  There is a reason for this, actually several, but I will get into that in my next update.

I just posted another video of a bass cello and saxophone on YouTube.  https://youtu.be/DAYA1_QTD-g

Steve




Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by DancingSea on 05/08/22 at 18:33:20

Thanks Steve.  The only confusion is the manual states that the EQ begins at 50% (high noon).  Yet your 300B post infers that the EQ begins at 1:15, which is where the 300B’s internal ZR2 will be set (1:15).

The question is which is correct?  Does the EQ begin at high noon (per the manual), or at 1:15?

Mahalo from Maui

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Archie on 05/08/22 at 19:41:29

My guess it that gain starts past noon but equal doesn't kick in until 1:15.

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by JBzen on 05/08/22 at 21:30:15

My thoughts too Archie.

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Steve Deckert on 05/09/22 at 05:43:48



Quote:
Thanks Steve.  The only confusion is the manual states that the EQ begins at 50% (high noon).  Yet your 300B post infers that the EQ begins at 1:15, which is where the 300B’s internal ZR2 will be set (1:15).

The question is which is correct?  Does the EQ begin at high noon (per the manual), or at 1:15?

Mahalo from Maui


The EQ/GAIN does begin at noon but doesn't become noticeable to the ear until it hits the green zone.

Steve

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by DancingSea on 05/09/22 at 06:10:09

Aha, the middle path. Very Zen indeed.

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by will on 05/09/22 at 09:39:54

With my fav 12AU7 in my ZR2 version, unity sounds right around 1:00 on a lot of recordings. And 1:15-ish is negligibly louder, but the sound is enhanced with lucidity and "tone" enhancement that does not notably shift the spectral balance. To me, at this gain level, it enhances the sound that is coming in more than modifying it per se, but making it more engaging and lively. So I really like this idea of building a simplified fixed gain version into the Sarah.

And as Steve alluded to earlier, he is eliminating a lot of things for this ZR2 variation, so improving resolution and transparency compared to a stand alone ZRock2. Eliminating connectors, volume pots, cables and wires, maybe a switch or two and some power supply parts... that is likely a pretty big deal toward transparent integration with the Sarah. I found a number of these parts to be good sounding, especially with Steve's "voicing" skills, but they can be a little slowing and coloring if in a system that is a little faster and clearer than the ZR2 voicing.

I know this because years of gradual modifications had made my setup progressively faster, and more resolving of subtler information and space. Still a Decware sound but with deeper complexity and nuance, along with carefully tuned speed balances that give immediacy and macro dynamics that are exciting, but not necessarily obvious. So my gear was pretty far from stock, or anniversary like mods when I finally got a ZR2, in turn causing the more stock ZR2 to be more contrasting than it would be if I had not gone this far with modifications. Under these conditions, the ZR2 was good in many ways with nice 12AU7s, but especially the bass power and speed were too slow and warm/thick in my setup. So I played with some powered up tubes (milder 12AT7s, or E180CCs or similar) and these clearer and more powerful tubes "cut through" the circuits more clearly and dynamically, in which case the bass got more impactful, faster, and more complex, and the remaining sort of "syrupy" contrast compared to the rest was musically seductive to me.

After a while though, I wanted the ZR2 to more closely match the balances I had found in the other gear. So I started modifying it with careful power supply bypassing, more resolving signal caps, a few resistor upgrades, and a few more resolving wires in some key areas. This worked, more speed, space and resolution. But it was almost like it was two things making the sound, one with more speed and clarity, and the other having slight masks and some slowness. So having had good luck in the Torii and CSP3 when replacing the internal shielded cables with ones I made using UPOCC silver, and pretty effective noise cancelling geometry, and also changing to very transparent and resolving RCAs, and a resolution supporting IEC inlet, this brought my ZR2 into sync with my other components... deeper levels of  speed, resolution, space and harmonic complexity, whether bypassed or engaged. And this made sense on reflection having done similarly inclusive work throughout the CSP3 and Torii...the ZR2 just needed similar to match more closely.

So I am thinking that with Steve's highly trimmed ZR2-based pre section, a lot of things I needed to upgrade for my pretty specific needs will not even be in there from the start, so this version is very likely to increase transparency more than the upgraded stand alone ZR2 I did. And mine is quite fast, revealing and musical with pretty prime parts throughout. So I can fully imagine Steve's new pre section to be transparent and musically enhancing... likely doing just enough to awaken musical traits that most of us really love, but so well integrated that it feels like it is just an aspect of a great new amp voicing. My guesses anyway.

Also, it is not just things with EQ attached to advertised functions that can change spectral balances. Different cap and resistor arrangements can easily change the EQ, lucidity and resolution. Also wires and connectors can effect these balances... So about anything can be used to shift the spectral balances, resolution, and lucidity. But this does not tend to concern us, because buying gear from Steve is saying we trust and want his design and voicing work... So we depend on his skills, perception, discernment and tastes to create resolving and musical balances for us to play with. And if this creative voicing leads to a set gain ZR2 variation built into an amp, I guess the way Steve tunes it is very likely to enhance our pleasure similarly to how it does his, no matter the gain estimations!


Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by JBzen on 05/09/22 at 10:24:03


Quote:
So having had good luck in the Torii and CSP3 when replacing the internal shielded cables with ones I made using UPOCC silver, and pretty effective noise cancelling geometry, and also changing to very transparent and resolving RCAs


This is my current aim. I have the parts on the way or delivered. Will need to find better RCAs from a more reputable dealer though. The one's recieved from over seas were advertised copper with 24k gold plate. Recieved brass gold plated.

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by JBzen on 05/09/22 at 10:39:34


Quote:
I just posted another video of a bass cello and saxophone on YouTube.  https://youtu.be/DAYA1_QTD-g


I am not familiar with that track. Could be the recording but there is a very noticable distracting sibilance between breath over reed. Miles Davis's "Kind of Blue" recording has similar sibilance. Could also be the reason why I moved to single driver speakers. Would be great to hear that track on the HDTs with silvers.

John

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Bluemage on 05/09/22 at 14:45:32

It's really cool that Steve's integrating the ZR2 into the 300, but I really wish there was an adjustment knob. While I've yet to experience the ZR2's magic, I find the adjustable EQ curve very appealing, and that's what drew me to it in the first place. Sometimes my records just need an extra kick, which leads me to fiddle with the bass knob on my old Sherwood.

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Edsonic on 05/09/22 at 17:00:18

Adding adjustability right in the amplifier would involve more wires, more solder nodes, another resistor and/or capacitor, one or two potentiometers, a switch, etc. which most people would not want in a 300B super-amp like this, even aside the unwanted extra cost. This slimmed down simplified version of a section of the ZR2 is only being used to purpose of making a super duper driver stage finely tuned to the 300B tube itself. Not intended for frequency manipulation.

If I get this amp or any other, I would still have a ZROCK to accommodate variance in recordings.

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Bluemage on 05/09/22 at 17:27:57

Ahh, I got you, that makes sense. Then I'll just plan on doing the same. Thank you for the clarification!

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Edsonic on 05/09/22 at 17:50:09

It's the driver stage that Steve's been harping on more than anything in this amplifier. After reading through all his investigations and experimenting with the driver stage (takes me 2 or 3 run-throughs for some of it) I can see why he's so excited about it. As I understand more of it, I'm almost as excited as he is.

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by will on 05/09/22 at 17:51:35

From JBzen: "Will need to find better RCAs from a more reputable dealer"

Of those IC ends I have tried I ended up liking KLE IC RCA's sound most overall. And the range increments were real to me, ending up using mostly the top two, Pure and Absolute. But when I first tried them, I thought the lower cost "silver" one was really good, just not as refined.... My personal preference, I like the way KLE blends clarity, resolution with smoothness, and they support my general preference for how low mass ends with good design can reveal delicacy with fine detail and space. To me these are not spectacular sounding in a HiFi way, but complete, while being relatively "not there." And though not cheap, I liked the price for the sound quality quite a bit too, WBT-AGs being my next overall fav and a lot more money even bought on a good discount.

So when KLE component RCAs were introduced, I got some Perfect Harmonys, and later found a good place in the ZRock2. I was not carefully logging the change from stock, and the stock RCAs had a nice sound to me, so I did not know what to expect. But I think I got a very similar sound from the KLE RCAs as their IC ends... and to me, notably more open complexity and speed than these particular gold plated RCAs.

I also really like WBT Copper/Gold, probably less obvious and more fine detailed; Furutech FT903-R, more "there," and more clearly/apparently open and complex... perhaps a good one if you want a little "livening up;" and DHLabs, more mass, but not heavy, neutral, and good at delicacy and resolution. These are not AB comparisons, but memories of initial impressions from the changes. I am hoping to set up something to direct AB all of these favs in a component, but I have not taken the time. At this point though, I would use any of these again. And if these seem like too much, I bet the lower range KLE are quite good... on sale now at Sonic Craft and Parts Connexion.

I actually got some really well made red copper, with silver RCAs from a Chinese seller some years ago, and think they are nicely resolving, but next to the WBTs I was comparing them to, the sound was more dense and focussed than I prefer, reminding me that I tend to prefer the potential delicacy and nuance from lower mass RCAs I have liked.

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by DancingSea on 05/09/22 at 19:27:31

Is Sarah getting a name, image and likeness (NIL) deal out of this plus a royalty piece of every unit sold?

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by CAJames on 05/09/22 at 20:55:43


Quote:
Posted by: DancingSea      Posted on: Today at 19:27:31

Is Sarah getting a name, image and likeness (NIL) deal out of this plus a royalty piece of every unit sold?



And if she doesn't is it possible she enters the transfer portal?

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by DancingSea on 05/09/22 at 21:09:53

[smiley=lolk.gif]

Exactly!  Cary might be assembling a lucrative contract and willing to change the name of their company to Sarah.  

We all know who’s driving this train…. The Women R Smarter

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Steve Deckert on 05/09/22 at 23:48:51



Will and Edsonic got it right.




Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by DancingSea on 05/10/22 at 03:54:30

Steve (et al),

If the 300B has a ZRock2 Lite built in, one that is preset at the beginning of the green zone and is not adjustable, what happens if one adds a regular ZR2 to that mix?

Presumably the part that is preset at the beginning of the green zone would be repeated twice.  Is it a sonic positive to have that EQ/gain component repeated in the chain?

Cryotone tubes arrived today, only two days from Texas to Maui.  A tip of that hat to priority mail.  Lightning fast.  Breaking in as I type.


Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Steve Deckert on 05/10/22 at 05:25:55




I have been evaluating the voicing of the amplifier on the house speakers all weekend. I've got it so dialed in at this point that literally I am spending an entire week playing with the value of a single resistor. It's like building a race motor when changing the timing by only a degree or two can bring everything together to win the race.

The resistor value is bending the ZROCK2 curve in ways that are impossible to do in the ZROCK2 itself.  The reason I am here is because I wondered what would happen if...  So now we are in new territory.

I created two values and a bypass with three temporary switches.  The bypass deletes the entire circuit.  I started the weekend with the original value that I was sure was it but then realized I could bend the circuit and hadn't tried that yet so value B created a smile in the response curve by about 1 dB by dishing out the midrange but not the treble. The low bass was boosted by about 1 dB as well.  This basically unrolled both ends of the 300B giving it a more neutral sound similar to our other amplifiers.

I have to tell you that going through these three settings during the listening sessions was mind roasting! I stared with the original setting and it was great. Then I went to bypass and I was horrified at how rude it was - not unlike getting your pecker stuck in the zipper. The horror was in realizing that this is how virtually 99% of other amplifiers are made. Both setting A and the Bypass measured the same. The bypass pushed the sound stage forward from the back which then compressed the depth and as a consequence resulted in a bit of hardness in the frequency balance as the layers stacked up on top of each other. I was exactly like having some of the mirrors in a telescope slightly out of alignment.

Then after several hours I was ready to hear value B so I flipped the switches and the sound stage exploded back into all of its dozens of layers with such clarity and focus I just stood there and looked stupid for awhile.

It wasn't just that everything got better, like 400% better, but notes changed. Instead of a single note being like a bubble of sound with a couple of even order harmonics it now was an organized 3D bundle of textures numbering in the hundreds that create the illusion of a single note.

So now were are sculpting the resolution, the staging, the balance, the image focus, and the depth and complexity of notes -- like getting all those mirrors aligned on the James Webb telescope -- and doing it all with a single resistor value. That's hardcore Zen.

There's virtually no way other 300B amps are likely to sound like this... I just can't see it. I know this because this process is no different than taking your carbureted hot rod out on the country road and smashing it and then pulling over, removing and inspecting all 8 plugs, and then changing the jets in the carb all while pulled over in the ditch and then repeating the process all damn day until you get it right. Most people would re-define 'right' after 3 times. It takes 11 to get it right if your lucky. And if you design amps with a Spice model that's often like predicting the right jet size without actually knowing the weather or driving the car... good luck with that on the drag strip.




click to enlarge


I am closing in on the chassis design as well. The switches and little board in the back is my temporary rig for listening to the different values. That mess will be gone in the production model. In fact I expect it to lay out a lot neater than this prototype that has been changed at least a dozen times.

Happy Listening

Steve





Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Bluemage on 05/10/22 at 05:40:42

Thrilling update, Steve! Keep them coming. I love the minutia of your design process, not to mention coupling that with your lurid prose! This amp is shaping up to be one special piece. And while mousing around on webforums, learning about 300b tubes and the history, I stumbled across several threads elsewhere where people are hotly anticipating your 300b amp!

You've created quite a buzz, my man.

https://forums.stevehoffman.tv/threads/decware-western-electric-300b-amp-in-development.1144387/

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Steve Deckert on 05/10/22 at 05:45:26

NOTE:  This was my first post tonight that vanished completely.  I basically somehow deleted it.  I had to start over from scratch so I wrote the post above as my second draft. Then after I posted it, this my first post appeared.  I am going to leave this one up too so you can have both versions.


UPDATE MAY 9 2022

Probably the biggest change of late is moving the amp to the house speakers for the final voicing. They are very different from the ZF15L and HDT where I started.

They have uncanny imaging focus. It’s really tight, like to a pin point. And because of that and their overall balance I had an interesting experience that I know I spoke about somewhere on these forums.

I had resurrected a TORII MK5 prototype from years past that never made the grade. I finished it and in the process created a one-off design that I still kind of wish I had kept. The reason was because I had hooked it up to the house speakers and it had this relaxed, deep sound that was the best I had heard in many ways on those speakers.  In fact I had the amp duplicated as close as possible. The only change was the power transformer, and even after matching the voltages it became sadly obvious that it was still enough of a change to never quite capture that sound. A sound I can still remember, like a ghost that haunts me.

So with this back story, I am presently working on frequency balance and imaging / soundstage.

I have installed 3 temporary switches on the amp that let me hear A B C configurations. A is my original configuration that I thought was it. B is bypassed completely  and C is my new configuration that I think is it.

We can no longer reference the ZROCK2 with regards to any further voicing including these switches I am using to find the perfect setting. This is because the circuit is getting bent in a way that can’t be done with the ZROCK2. It is getting bent to compensate for the signature of the WE300B so that final sound is closer to our other amplifiers, which is to say a bit more neutral.  

The two main settings are a humbling reminder of how bad bypass sucks. It sucks only from the perspective of getting the sound stage shoved a bit forward from the back compressing the depth and adding a touch of hardness that shouldn’t be there. Again, a sound I have often blamed on the recordings. Setting A is really good, measuring ultra close to flat. Setting B has a very tiny smile. The midrange is dished by around a dB, the top end is not and the bass is up by about a dB. This unrolls both ends of the 300B and makes it sound a little more like our other amps.

Last night I took the amp in the listening room and started in setting A which I was used to. I then compared it with bypassed and bypassed isn’t quite as bad as catching your pecker in the zipper but it was pretty rude nonetheless. Then I went back to A for another hour. Then I switched it to B and it was a holy crap moment because I got that same amazing, like twice as good, soundstage that I have only heard once before…

When I say twice as good, I mean four times as good. It was like getting all the mirrors aligned on the James Webb Telescope.

Tonight I am focusing on B and it was going great until I played Daft Punk and the low bass drew attention to itself. I half expected that, but that bass is needed in the signal to align everything in the driver stages, so rather than go back to setting A I have reduced the coupling caps feeding the 300B to dry clean the sound a bit by preventing exaggerated low bass.

The textural depth is paralleling the sound stage depth. One requires the other and both require a room that allows it to happen and it is happening big time under these reference conditions.



click to enlarge



I have also been working on the final chassis layout as I continue to polish this. Tonights cap is 10x smaller and faster with less thickness through the middle. I suspect I will probably end up in the middle before it’s over.

The take away, is the sound stage and clarity of all the layers is twice as good as anything you’ve heard in the videos so far, not that you can even hear that in the videos which is why I don’t mind saying the amp is completed in the videos when in reality it is still improving for those with the reference environment for it to express itself.

It just blows my mind how huge and fundamental the change is, and it’s only 1 resistor’s value that is controlling this whole thing.  I have the amp so dialed in that it’s like a race engine where changing the timing by only a couple degrees can bring everything together to win the race.

The notes get deeper.  Instead of a note being a bubble of sound, it has become a highly defined bundle of textures that combine to create the illusion of a note.

You don’t hear this deep into stuff with most audio gear.  And from the 300B sound I started with as you may remember I wasn’t confident it was even possible with this amp.

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Bluemage on 05/10/22 at 13:32:19

Also, really digging the layout! Loving the Sarah logo and the silk screened pot dial. What's the HUM dial?

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Lon on 05/10/22 at 13:42:52

How exciting! I'm glad I have my order in. Now to live long enough. . . . ;) [smiley=icqlite20.png]

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Bluemage on 05/10/22 at 13:56:19

So you ponied up, Lon? Very cool. You'll have owned more Decware gear than anyone, save the man himself!

I've decided that I'm going to switch my order from the MKV to the 300b, when the product officially launches. Given the lead time, I might re-order the MKV also, but for my first Decware piece, I want it to be the 300b. If I'm going to dip my toe in the Decware waters, it needs to be SET. It appears that this amp is shaping up to be his flagship, so I want to be a part of that.

Additionally, the US made WE tubes are also a big selling point. It may be silly, but an American amp powered by American tubes appeals to me on emotional level, if nothing else.

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Lon on 05/10/22 at 14:50:46

Yes, I put myself into the order queue. I can only thank my father for this. His passing will allow us to become debt free again, including paying off our mortgage, and I will be able to afford this when my number comes up (that is my number on the Build List.)

I have so much to be grateful for my father and this final blessing is just one reason. Perhaps more importantly he taught me how to listen and to appreciate music, which has been something that has enriched my entire life. I got to share listening times with him and he was able to hear what I hear in great audio and appreciate and understand the differences. I miss him a lot.

I agree that this is shaping up to be the flagship or certainly an amp holding a place of pride in the stable. And it connects the dots for me: a 300B amp lured me away from push-pull and solid state, and led me to Decware and the culmination of a Decware 300B Sarah seems something that has to happen in my life. Journeys like this have been a part of my personal history--both of my wives have been women I loved but did not have a chance to be loved by for many years later, and I left this area to find myself and returned decades later, a found person with a new mission. This audio journey should be no different.

Steve's enthusiasm is always infectious and also has always been easy for me to catch as I think we have similar natures in important ways. Following the development of the Sarah is going to be a joyful thing.

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Bluemage on 05/10/22 at 15:12:46

Thanks for sharing. Your father's contribution will make the music that much sweeter. Very nice.

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Same Old DD on 05/10/22 at 16:42:44

You said something about the layout and It just looks so perfect. So appealing. Probably going to have to drive and invade the compound soon. Not quite there yet.

When I force bilateral symmetry on one of my fractal programs, I get close, but this is beautiful.

Takes a couple of reads to grasp what is going on with The Development process sometimes.
I thank you for sharing the whole Behind The Curtain view, Steve!!

Tip of the hat to you folks getting in on the first of the run.

Is this the new "flagship" Decware design?

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Steve Deckert on 05/10/22 at 18:58:51


The goal is to get it to an elevated level, yes.  That said, the UFO25 is unbeatable.  My hope is to have this amp be similarly good - but different sounding enough to appeal to those who want a slightly lusher sound.  It will certainly be interesting to see how it is received.  Some will think it's better, some will not.  I believe it has the attributes that many people who want tubes would chase because of the "tube sound" everyone talks about.  Historically Decware amps are hard to hear.  They just get out of the way.  I have so far taken this design a long way towards that goal, but want to keep some of the 300B magic in tact.


Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Lon on 05/10/22 at 19:21:48

Just as I had guessed what you had meant by the "1:15" position and its implementation in the amp, I had guessed that this touch of "lushness" and what it adds to the Decware line-up was part of your intention in developing it.

I'm glad to hear it because I would really love to experience that bit of lushness. My sober life needs some lushness!

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Mannytheseacow on 05/10/22 at 19:52:54

I see there are a few orders on the list for 300b. How do I order one if it’s not listed on the website yet?

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Lon on 05/10/22 at 19:57:31

Call or email Sarah. She'll take a pre-order with a very low deposit.

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Mannytheseacow on 05/10/22 at 19:59:56

Thanks, Lon. I appreciate the help.  :)

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Lon on 05/10/22 at 20:17:17

You're welcome. As Nike says, "Just do it." ;)

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Bluemage on 05/10/22 at 20:57:18

Will there be options, or will it be a full-bore model like the 25th UFO? I only ask because I need to change my order from a Torii to a 300. If they'll be options (IE, cap upgrades, etc) I'll just wait so I can do it all at one time.

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Lon on 05/10/22 at 21:00:25

I suggest contacting Sarah. As far as I know at this time all the possible options haven't been communicated outside of Steve and Sarah, and if anyone knows the possibilities it's Sarah.

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Same Old DD on 05/10/22 at 21:05:27

Steve, that makes even more sense.
Many of us want lush, but disappearing or getting out of the way is also a large factor.

It almost sounds like you are building more than one product into one chassis as my understanding goes.
Sorry to seem thick. I know most here already get what I'm seeing, but I'm still playing catch up.
I'm betting you'll get more elemental questions like mine as production unfolds.


Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by RKML0007 on 05/10/22 at 21:07:01

Add another to list - whoohoo!!! Lon’s method works, call Sarah today!!!

-Ron

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by DancingSea on 05/10/22 at 21:21:37

I am all for lush.  I'm far from an orthodox audiophile.  The whole notion of what the artist intended strikes me a mythological and unobtainable unless you have the same equipment and room as the artist, as well as the artist in house to explain whether or not the final cut was how they wanted it.  That's a whole lot of variables making such a thing impossible.

I have no issue with EQ's and love the ZRock2.

That said, I do wonder how an EQ setting being hardwired into an amp will be received by the greater audiophile community.  A community that has long condemned EQ's.  Even though the 1:15 setting has the gain and EQ below what can be heard, it still must be doing something to contribute to the lushness otherwise Steve would not be characterizing it as such.  Calling it a ZRock2 built in certainly characterizes it as an EQ.

I'm personally all for it.  I want things to sound good to me and honestly don't give a hoot what the artist intended.  But perhaps to satisfy the overwhelmingly prevailing audiophile orthodoxy, a bypass switch for the embedded ZR2 might be a good idea.  If nothing else, it will clearly demonstrate how much better it sounds with than without.  But also gives the prevailing ideology of "no EQ's" an option to satisfy their dogma to keep it "pure".

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Lon on 05/10/22 at 21:39:49

As I understand it it is better to consider this the driver stage with a bit of gain, there's really no actual EQ curve. I could be wrong, Steve will set us straight, but the lushness was actually present before he made this change if I read this development properly, a sort of hallmark of the tube. I think there's little to fear actually. You may be right that some "audiophiles" will have a misconception about it and have an issue. There are those who are always going to have an issue. Who needs them? ;)

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by DancingSea on 05/10/22 at 21:44:26

Lon, well, I certainly don't need them!  But if I were an amp company, I'd certainly take their concerns to heart as they represent the vast majority of audiophiles.

I'm not technically knowledge enough to know the difference between an EQ and a driver stage with gain.  But I do know my ABC's and my figures enough to know that Steve called it a ZRock2 built in, only without the ability to adjust.  And a ZRock2 is an EQ.  

The ZRock2 itself seems to take this into account with the presence of a bypass switch.  Just thinking, in my folksy fresh off the turnip truck way, that maybe a bypass switch on the 300B might not be a bad idea....

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by GroovySauce on 05/10/22 at 21:46:09

If the internal “ZROCK” is at unity. Isn’t that an input stage? If Steve said, “It has a double input stage.” This conversation wouldn’t be happening. He said he is tweaking the response a little by a db in the midrange. Isn’t one reason to use negative feedback to increase bandwidth, and flatten the frequency response? If so, sounds like Steve is doing the same thing his way. 

Bluemage, Steve’s first post in the thread, covers what a hum pot is.

"So one of the things that has always given me some pause with respect to directly heated triodes like the 300B is the fact that if you run an AC heater, you have to use a hum balance pot on the cathode.  That would be a 2 watt or 5 watt wire wound linear 100 ohm pot where the center wiper becomes the cathode path to ground!  This means you would have to have an extremely high quality wire wound pot not to tank the sound right here.  This is the critical signal path where even the type of wire used will effect the signature of the amp."


Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Lon on 05/10/22 at 21:46:36

Switches degrade sound.

Ok. Sorry I posted. I'll let Steve answer.

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by DancingSea on 05/10/22 at 21:56:18

Lon - as you say, we are all different.  No need to degrade another's opinion as "over thinking" because you approach things differently.  I am a smart cookie, of that I'm sure.  There's no need for you to follow me around the forum and decree whenever you think I've over-thunk something.  I suggest you stick to the topic at hand, feeling free to agree or disagree or expand upon or ignore the points set forth, and set aside psychological assessments of others.  One man's over-thinking is another man's genius.

I can say with confidence that EQ's are very controversial in audiophile circles.  Nearly every audiophile company has removed them.  And I've never heard of an non-adjustable EQ being hardwired into an amp.  Doesn't bother me in the least as I'm staunchly pro EQ.  But it's certainly a worthy topic of discussion.  And Steve can decide whether or not to clarify what he means by a ZR2 baked into the 300B.

Touche!

[smiley=vrolijk_1.gif]

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Ghostship on 05/10/22 at 22:05:31

I too have switched my Torii MK5 order to a Sarah 300b.

I'd like to say this is what convinced me this new amp was for me:

"Just to be clear, if you don't like to tube roll, want the best, want to get it done with a single component you will have the sound of a ZROCK2 with anniversary mods feeding a CSP325 and the fully anniversary modded SE84UFO series amplifiers but with 4 watts instead of 2 and with 3 times less distortion at 2 watts and up to 8 watts at 10% distortion not to mention seldom if ever having to replace the output tubes since they are likely to outlast many of us."

But to be honest, he had me at "Sarah".... [smiley=dankk2.gif]

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Steve Deckert on 05/10/22 at 22:09:40


Yes, it is being designed to have the sound of an amplifier, a preamplifier driving it and a custom voiced ZROCK set to that magic spot. In other words, to be a complete solution. Besides the resulting sound, my thoughts were that if someone doesn't have to purchase a preamp and a ZROCK to get this sound they will be more likely to get the Western Electric 300B tubes and perhaps even a few other brands just to keep it interesting and a fun.

If on the other hand to get this sound requires 3 components, each with high dollar mods, cables, cords, tubes, etc,. then people's budgets are going to be stretched and they may opt for inexpensive Chinese or Russian 300B tubes either by choice or necessity. My hope with this project is to support Western Electric to help them achieve their goal of producing many more popular audio tubes like those used in our other amplifiers. If you can't afford their 300B tube when you buy this amplifier it's not giving them much help.  

We are on target for release some time this summer but that can change -- as the amplifier is still in development.

If the amp is in production before parts are pulled for your order you can of course change your order to the 300B if you want.  However, if the amplifier is not yet in production when your turn comes up, you will have the option of changing your order to the 300B and going back to the beginning of the list, or letting us finish and ship your original order.

Steve






Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by DancingSea on 05/10/22 at 22:13:46

Thanks for the clarification Steve!  You are a brave man, audiophile orthodoxy be damned, let them eat cake... not only are we going to put in the heretical EQ, we're going to preset that EQ and you can't change it.... I love it!

[smiley=cool.gif]

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Lon on 05/10/22 at 22:14:03

Fine. The truth is it just bothers me to see others telling a company what they should worry about or be sure to explicate fully etc. Sort of over and over. That's how it seems to me. You're right, I should keep that to myself.

I apologize, I overstep too often and really should step back and away, especially as chaotic as my mind becomes later in the day fending off some grief.

Glad you got your answer, and I'll stay away from your next thread like this.

Title: Q
Post by DancingSea on 05/10/22 at 22:23:45

Lon wrote:


Quote:
Fine. The truth is it just bothers me to see others telling a company what they should worry about or be sure to explicate fully etc. Sort of over and over. You're right, I should keep that to myself.


Well, that seems to be a misinterpretation of my interaction.  I don't recall telling Steve what to do.  I merely raised a concern (in effect seeking clarification) and making a good natured design suggestion that is found in the ZRock2 itself, namely a bypass switch for the EQ part.  A core principle of any successful company is to listen to and welcome customer concerns.

In this Decware bubble it's easy to forget how horribly most audiophiles think of EQ's.  And every audiophile amp that I know of who has bravely added an EQ, always has a bypass switch.  Always.

But hey, Steve is going all gangsta, totally fine by me.....

As for your repeated decree of me over thinking, the main point is to feel free to disagree with my points, but there's no need to degrade my competence or intelligence, or discernment for making those points.  The term "over thinking" implies a dog chasing its own tail rather than doing anything productive.

I've seen this sort of thing in internet forums before.  People stray from good natured debate and instead, usually when they've run out of good points, drift into a personal undermining of their dance partners act of making their point in the first place.  And that enters shady ground.  And it's from that space that I'm encouraging you to take a different approach.  Feel free to show the error of my opinions, but do so without seeking to undermine my place to make those opinions in the first place.

Lon, I have always greatly appreciated your endless wisdom on the forums, and continue to do so.  

Kind Regards,
John

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Steve Deckert on 05/10/22 at 22:32:13


As far as the "EQ" is concerned it is an obviously dangerous term to throw around and misleading.  An EQ set flat isn't even accurate because it begs the question why?

All I am doing is taking the magic from the ZROCK2 technology and using it to voice the amp.  As I mentioned before both of my current settings I am evaluating measure basically flat. So for the sake of this design thread you can call it an EQ since it's DNA came from the ZROCK2, but there will be no mention of any EQ or ZROCK2 in association with the amplifier on the web site or owner's manual.  The switch on the front of a Zen Triode amp makes a bigger difference.




Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Kirk on 05/10/22 at 22:34:30

Found this A/B comparison of a MC275 and a 300B SET amp.  I thought the AB switch setup was pretty cool and test parameters fair.  I resisted the temptation to skip to the end for the reveal.  I can't say that I could detect when switching occurred via my Bose Bluetooth headphones and the music sounded great.  I think that says a lot about 300B SET.  :D

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LtWqgdw4E44

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Lon on 05/10/22 at 22:39:14

Thank you John. I do find your intentions strike me differently than you intend and that leads me to misunderstanding.

I did not mean to denigrate you and only think highly of you and internet posting methodology has gotten in our way. My skin has thinned of late and I type more than I should as well.

My apologies again and damn I'm so happy the way this amp is being developed and wish I had a time machine and could move forward to when these are being shipped to those who place orders now!

PS: wisdom? Not really.

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by DancingSea on 05/10/22 at 22:40:07

Steve, I appreciate your thoughts.  But I find them confusing.

If you're taking the magic part of the ZRocks2, which is an EQ, and you are taking that part between noon and 1:15, then you are taking something that contributes to the lushness you have described, which is an EQ type of behavior.

That noon to 1:15 is still an EQ of some sort.  Perhaps not as pronounced as the EQ actions of the adjustable ZR2, but it's some level of equalization.

As mentioned, totally fine by me.  But it's likely to cause a number of orthodox audiophiles to spontaneously combust.

And in fairness, it seems to me wisest to be straight about what you're doing in your marketing.  If you're adding the magic parts of your tube EQ, then shouldn't that be clearly conveyed to the customer rather than somewhat hidden?

To my sight, the only way to please all comers, and certainly that vast majority of audiophiles, is to provide a means to bypass the ZRock2 magic bit.

Buy hey, it's your pony.  And I'm sure it's going to sound great.  But I don't think hiding the presence of the ZRock2 in the 300B is the best way to go.....

You did write:


Quote:
Yes, it is being designed to have the sound of an amplifier, a preamplifier driving it and a custom voiced ZROCK set to that magic spot.


Which seems to be the truth.  A 3 in 1 solution of which one part is the ZRock, which is an EQ.  

Please don't shoot the messenger.  I don't make the weather, rather just report on it.


2 rupees...

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Edsonic on 05/10/22 at 23:26:05


An equalizer is a device that -adjusts- frequency balance. It is not the only method or means which affect frequency balance.

'Voicing' an amplifier, a preamplifier, and especially speakers affect, -and set-, frequency balance, by choice of resistor and/or capacitor values, or brand of same. We do not call any of that "EQ-like behavior." Whatever the fine details of its deployment, use of the active circuit of the ZR2 and -setting it- to a chosen point is just another voicing device, no different than the others mentioned.

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Bluemage on 05/10/22 at 23:33:55

That's it, I just emailed Sarah about her namesake. I'm changing the Torii to the Sarah; I'm all in.

Additionally, I'm keeping the CSP325, the ZROCK2, the ZP3 and the ZLC on my order. If the 300b sounds good without a pre, I'm banking on it sounding just as good, and just a bit more so, with it! This will be my first foray into SET, and I can't think of a better project to kick me off!

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Bluemage on 05/11/22 at 00:30:24

Groovysauce, thank you, I did read that, I guess I just don't understand it. Is this a pot that can be manipulated by the consumer? I didn't notice one on the prototype photo--I guess that's what confused me. If this is a user-adjustable knob, what does it do, exactly? Sorry, but a lot of this technical stuff goes way over my head.

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Edsonic on 05/11/22 at 00:51:49


I've found if you want to ask the real experts, talk to the radio guys.

Hum balance explained- https://www.antiqueradios.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=63462

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Steve Deckert on 05/11/22 at 04:18:46



Quote:
That noon to 1:15 is still an EQ of some sort.


It's not, it measures flat in that range. The reason it sounds better is because that's where it passes unity and starts to develop gain. Also I mentioned that we are no longer referencing the ZROCK2 because it would be misleading. This is because as I said I have bent the settings in a way that can't be duplicated on a ZROCK2. As well the vast majority of parts in the ZROCK's EQ circuit have been eliminated.

I have on this most recent experiment bent the response into a smile which can not be done with a ZROCK2. And the bend is small. Technically I can bend it up to +/- 3dB and industry standard would consider that to be good frequency response.

If an amplifier with a frequency response that is +/-3dB is considered good, but not a perfect flat line of +/- 0dB do we call it an EQ'd amplifier?

Don't worry, if I end up choosing this most recent value I will put a switch there so customers can enjoy both signatures, not because I am worried about triggering audiophiles. The fact is... that there is never that perfect setting unless we all owned the exact same speakers and listened to them in the exact same rooms. There is no doubt in my mind that the holy shit moment I am having with it on the house speakers with respect to the imaging can be dissected to reveal a particular signature of phase angles across frequencies and we know that part of that comes from the amplifier and then is further adjusted by the speakers. This is why the term synergy was adopted into the audiophile vernacular.  It's likely that the original setting will have the same effect vs the new setting on a different pair of speakers.  You really have to understand that there is no real separation between the amplifier and the speakers, they together are one body.  But I don't have access the speakers so this is why most of our amplifiers have at least one if not more voicing switches.  This way you can find that holy shit zone with your own speakers without trying so many different amplifiers to get there.

I appreciate your concerns and that you look out for me.  I listen to everyone.

The amplifier has to measure flat because A) I would be laughed out of the hobby and B) someone may want to use a ZROCK2 with it for it's ability to remaster recordings on the fly with the adjustable knob not to mention high frequency roll in bad rooms.

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by johnnycopy on 05/11/22 at 06:21:54

I have what many consider one of the most transparent, harmonically correct, yet ballsy 300b set amps every produced (coincident technology Frankenstein mark 3 monoblocks).

I have multiple speakers, but one pair is the newest Li Audio reference speakers (tall version).

On the right music, this combination is absolutely stunning, with dynamics and speed that are unparalleled.

But… I bought a used zrock2 for the not so perfect level of recordings and it serves a very useful purpose.

The beauty of it is the weight it adds. I do adjust the zrock2 stepped volume control, but not often.

The idea of a more transparent version of this without the extra cabling to me has merit for Steve’s product vision.

It is what it is, and if it can be bypassed gives the user choice and avoids the issues being discussed here (is this flat or eq’d).

In a perfect world this wouldn’t be a binary switch, instead adjustable, but we all know audio is is filled with trade offs.  

Interested to watch your experiment Steve, thanks for sharing.




Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by piezoman on 05/11/22 at 13:54:59


Quote:
Well, that seems to be a misinterpretation of my interaction.  I don't recall telling Steve what to do.  


You didn't, and even if you did it is customer feedback and a man like Steve is plenty smart enough to understand that.

Don't let the whiny, twitchy little weasel get under your skin. There's a long history here of that dumb crap from him.

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Bluemage on 05/11/22 at 14:26:36

It's pretty cool that Steve encourages, and even appreciates feedback. A lot of builders would clutch their pearls at the mere notion of peasants daring to question.

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Same Old DD on 05/11/22 at 17:06:15

It all makes more sense to me, now.
Most especially, I thank Steve for his indulgence, allowing all our questions to be voiced and trying his best to answer.

Also, thanks to others who have brought up more defining questions, resulting in even more refined descriptions from our host.


[smiley=tunes29.gif]

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Steve Deckert on 05/12/22 at 04:20:11

 




Ten different NOS 12AU7's.  The best of the best and one of my all time favorite sounding low mu tubes.  Average cost on eBay $20. each -- even today.  It's the best deal in audio as far as I am concerned. I have started with the black plate RCA on the far right. My only thought is that there is no way I am going to try the other nine. It sounds that good. For all we know it could be the worse sounding one of the ten.

This is the main input stage for the amp, and it does both channels so a single tube change will give you a new signature -- one that is exactly matched between the channels.

The two driver tubes can be 6N6P, 6N5P, 6N1P, 6922 and all the variants there of. So far you would think the 6N6P would win, but I am using the Cryotone 6922's and so far they have been impossible to beat.  

Speaking of Cryotone, as many of you know they make a 300B.  I will be trying some soon.  Some of you might be thinking hey... why not send Don at Wathen Audiophile who makes Cryotone a pair of 300B and have him cryo them?

I knew better than to ask, but here is what Don sent me today:


Quote:
I know WE 300b tubes are assumed to be the best sounding 300b. While I am happy to see someone making a tube in the USA, I don’t think the WE 300b could be considered to be processed as a “CryoTone”. I would need to start with around 50 of their 300b tubes to develop the best process. The materials they use is an unknown. This means starting from scratch. The cost to develop WE CryoTone tubes is probably too high. At the same time, we’ve developed a great process for the Slovakian 300b and the 2A3.
 

There is a reasonable chance these will sound better, and be several hundred dollars savings over the WE300B's so this is going to be a real option for those who either want to roll output tubes, or save a bit of money without compromising the sound.

Anyway, back to the input tube.  With the Cryotone's driving the output tubes, pretty much all the voicing from tube rolling on this particular amplifier will happen with a single $20 tube.

-Steve



Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Steve Deckert on 05/12/22 at 05:09:58


If you would like to join me, I'm listening to that black plate on this:





Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Steve Deckert on 05/12/22 at 05:44:37


UPDATE

Tonight/Today I cleaned things up, got it down to one switch.  Rolled tubes, playing some great music, changed the value of the main coupling caps again and I am really happy with it. I finally have that feeling that it's 100% right. I can't really hear the amplifier anymore. The music is alive. It's just right.  

I can tell you a secret about amplifier design... if it didn't really hurt, and take a really long time to explore all the possibilities, by ear, not by spice, then you can be sure no mater what one might come up with , it's not right. Not this kind of right. Trust me, when you hear it, you'll know.  This is probably on the level of the UFO25 now, and that's amazing considering...

Steve


Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Doug on 05/12/22 at 16:06:11

The Decware 300B amp does have a volume control for each channel……right?  The photos make me believe it does, but need to confirm prior to committing to buy one.


Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Rhtubes on 05/12/22 at 16:20:59

Steve,
Have you tried the Cryotone 12AU7-WCL long plate tube in the 300B amp yet?

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Steve Deckert on 05/12/22 at 16:58:48

Yes, vol control for each channel.

12AU7-WCL  No, not yet.

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by KenD on 05/12/22 at 17:24:20

I just received a Decware email advising that Kevin Deal at Upscale Audio is a good source for NOS tubes.  IMO his selection is not that great.

In my experience Brent Jesse has a much broader selection at fair prices.  A google search will quickly turn up his contact info.  No affiliation whatsoever except as a satisfied customer.

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Doug on 05/12/22 at 18:19:27

Uncle Kevvy does seem to be a source for decent vacuum tubes, but the only thing I ever bought from him was a “floor model”  Balanced Audio Technology (BAT) CD player.  Turns out, that player was completely worn out!  After two full years of battling Deal at Upscale and Viktor at BAT, I threw in the towel and sold my trashed BAT CD player on eBay for just under a grand.  That was a loss of thousands, and it still causes my feathers to ruffle when I think about it.

On the other hand, I have purchased a couple dozen tubes (flawless, I might add) from Brent over the past two decades……..big directly heated triodes, rectifiers, various preamp tubes.  Heck, I just pulled a Brent Jesse Mullard E88CC from the input position of my CSP3.  That tube (and it’s matching sister) has been used in several preamps and power amps and still works great after nearly 20 years of use.  Brent is a great guy and extremely knowledgable.  He’s 100% trustworthy.

Sorry for for being off topic………just responding to previous post.

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by piezoman on 05/12/22 at 20:50:15

Well "Uncle Kevvy", as he likes to call himself, is a salesman first. He over-hypes everything he sells as the answer, the greatest, blah blah blah. Over-hype gets real boring, real quick.

That aside, the internet seems to tell the tale of a man who isn't always a stand-up man. Many stories of what Doug explains as his as well.

I never bought anything from him and never will. I find his personality and salesmanship to be a total turn-off.

Brad

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by KenD on 05/12/22 at 21:49:54

"Sorry for for being off topic………just responding to previous post."

I guess I was off topic as well but the email I received offered a link to this thread and that's why I posted here.

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by LeftyEric on 05/12/22 at 22:12:27

Hey Steve,

Two quick questions:

1. You earlier described the 300b as “I believe what is actually happening is that the SEWE300B is like HD or even 2K resolution at 60 fps and the SE84UFO25 is like 4K at 30 fps”.  Do you still think this comparison is accurate? I very much love the “lit from within” SET magic midrange, and very well may grab one of these.

2. If you had to estimate from your listening, at what wattage-ish do you start to hear non-pleasing distortion?  I know this 300b is optimized for 4 watts but perhaps we can squeeze a pleasant sound from 6 watts, as example.  

P.S.  I love your approach to design. Science coupled with trusting your ears. I’d take trusting your ears over anything else. It shares some similarities to the lean startup model adopted by most SaaS tech companies these days. Create the basic version and release it to the wild (your listening room). Then get feedback quickly from users (your ears in this scenario) and then continue to tweak and release iterations fast and often until it’s as “right” as possible.  (The updates, new features, and changes continue forever in software these days, and are just pushed automatically thanks to the internet. In SaaS there is never a finished product.)

Big fan! Great stuff Steve.

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by CAJames on 05/12/22 at 22:20:43

I hate to pile on, but I'll add that my limited interaction with Kevvy has not been entirely positive either. I've had much better experiences with Brent Jesse and several other online tube merchants who don't run a highend audio shop on the side.


Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by LeftyEric on 05/12/22 at 22:23:46

I’ve only had great experiences with Brent!

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Dana on 05/12/22 at 23:13:25

OK, it typically tend to overthink stuff maybe because I don't understand / trust the technology but want to make sure that I'm getting what's being presented.  That being said I go back to this video from PS Audio regarding preamp connection vs direct connection
https://youtu.be/Dh27E7YKN9s

Soooo would the `the 300b amplifier produce the best sound with a quality passive preamp as the circuit is already being optimized?

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by CAJames on 05/12/22 at 23:27:32


Quote:
Posted by: Dana      Posted on: Today at 23:13:25

...Soooo would the `the 300b amplifier produce the best sound with a quality passive preamp as the circuit is already being optimized?


I usually avoid absolutes, but I’m confident there is absolutely no "right" answer for that question. Some people are going to like it with no preamp at all, and others will prefer what their favorite preamp adds to their system, and some will no doubt add a zrock with or without a preamp. One well know poster on this site would probably use 2 preamps... It depends on your taste, your system, your room and probably a bunch of other stuff that only you can answer. Or put another way, its up to you to optimize your system so it sounds best to you, regardless of the circuit.

My 2 cents.

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Tooppy on 05/12/22 at 23:29:16

Fantastic Steve, I love the way you work! Your articles are top notch at explaining things, thank you for everything.
Many years ago (20 years may be) I nearly bought a 300B, it was given as THE marvel amp....and for the same old reason, money, I didn't, I couldn't afford !
It seems history repeats itself, I already dry up with the UFO2, I am on the list for a year now, so not far from going out of the tunnel.
I run my system with a FirstWatt F5 I made and I am eager  to compare.
I made my speakers based on a Karlson design with the LII F15 after I tried Steve's OB which wasn't up to my expectations in my room.
Of course I would love this new amp and I try to console telling myself it won't be adequate because my DAC is also a preamp, that's a good reason isn't it, yes, an excellent reason [smiley=10.gif]....and I cannot sell my wife to buy Sarah ;D

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Bluemage on 05/13/22 at 01:42:29

CAJames, 2 preamps? Lulz.

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Lon on 05/13/22 at 01:57:39

He was obliquely referring to me, for a year or so I was using both a ZTPRE and a CSP3 in my main system (as well as a ZROCK2 and ZBIT). . . in part because the CSP3 gave me headphone use, and in part because believe it or not it sounded damned good, better than either one of the preamps alone.

I no longer do that. . . I set up a very good headphone system on the same floor, and with mods to my source just the ZTPRE sounds really really good.

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Bluemage on 05/13/22 at 03:21:53

Ahh, I understand. I thought he was just joshing around. Hey, man, as they say, trust your ears and nothing else! Ya gotta do what works for you and keep on keeping on.

In fact, I just hooked up a nicer (on paper), more expensive set of speakers that I just recapped tonight, only to decide that my old speakers were indeed better. So guess what? We swapped them back out. Kind of a bummer, but my wife and I agreed that the old ones were better!

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Steve Deckert on 05/13/22 at 03:40:14




This is the powder coat textured finish I'm planning on using.  Same as the anniversary amp, different color.  And the silk screen will be the color of the text in the image.  It should look pretty great and of course be something Sarah would approve of.





Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by SteveB on 05/13/22 at 05:21:31

I love the powder coating color. The silk screen should be darker than the powder coating to be more readable.  I could suggest a couple of colors but I won't. I had a better idea. Sarah...the amps namesake... should pick the color of the silkscreen. It would be her personal touch. It could be her favorite color or whatever she thought would make it "pop".

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Bluemage on 05/13/22 at 05:40:38

I'm colorblind and can't exactly decipher what color that is, but I love it. I also love that the silk screening will be light, it looks awesome. A cream color might looks awesome too for the font. Regardless, I love that it's not standard issue black--makes it look special.

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Matchstikman on 05/13/22 at 05:49:18

I listened to Tool's Fear Inoculum on my system last night. It sounded glorious.  I can only imagine what it must sound like on this new Decware 300b.  I'm thinking, it can't sound any better, but can it?  How much better can something get?  There has to be a point where there is no more improvement.  I mean, besides being there while the actual music is getting recorded.


Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Steve Deckert on 05/13/22 at 06:10:29



Quote:
I listened to Tool's Fear Inoculum on my system last night. It sounded glorious.  I can only imagine what it must sound like on this new Decware 300b.


The 300B and the ZF15L, it was a 50/50 thing where credits are concerned.  Those speakers are simply unbeatable for powerful music.

Steve



Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Steve Deckert on 05/13/22 at 06:19:34

 
UPDATE 5/12/22

Now that the amp is pretty much done I thought it would be a good idea to start seeing how it measures compared to other 300B SET amplifiers. There are so many I decided I would just look at John Atkinson’s measurements of various 300B amps reviewed in Stereophile.

One thing I noticed in several popular 300B amplifiers is that if you want the best performance you need to use 8 ohm speakers.  When the amps were measured into 4 ohms or less, the high frequency response began to roll.  I saw several that actually rolled off at 10K as the impedance dropped.  Correction, resistance dropped, as during measurements the amp is connected to a dummy load.  The name comes from people who think this is how an amplifier measures on speakers - which have impedance instead of resistance relative to frequency.

In any case it is a good standard by which to evaluate one amp against another and or against itself during development.  



(click to enlarge)



Tonight I am doing measurements all evening. Getting high resolution plots in the low bass area is time consuming. Also, never trust test equipment with your life.  So I have two completely separate but similar stations for doing distortion analysis and frequency response measurements and measure the amplifier many times on both. If they both agree, I know it’s right.

The Audio Gods are here to watch. Specifically to here to watch me realize that I am seeing their signature. The signature is the response.  

So instead of being rolled off on both ends this amp is so far measuring flat within less than 2 dB from 20 to 20kHz at all impedances from 2 ohms to 16 ohms. And instead of rolling at the ends it is slightly lifted. This beautifully compliments the general signature of the 300B tubes.

I was very surprised to see that the amplifier didn’t roll off in the treble at 2 ohms. If it is true that some of these big name 300B amplifiers can have the frequency response roll off at 10kHZ just because the load dropped to 4 ohms or less then it is no wonder why people think this tube is dark and romantic sounding.

Frankly I’m not comfortable with that, as our amps have always had unwavering frequency response at any impedance, and most will drive nearly a dead short. Having the frequency response follow the impedance of the loudspeaker would certainly have some interesting effects but frankly would be pure fantasy with respect to fidelity. Yea it might sound cool, but be wildly different from one speaker to the next and have nothing to do with accuracy.

Also I noticed that many amps are claiming 8 watts or even more, but at those levels have pretty high low order harmonic distortion. The most interesting thing to me as I looked at all the measurements of these reviewed amplifiers was the distortion ramp and how it changes in slope angle from amp to amp and its general shape. It really reminds me of horsepower curves on a dyno.

Since the audiophile world is well triggered by specifications and measurements I do need to make sure that this subtle but mind melting tug at the midrange frequencies still measures legally flat and it does so not only at 8 ohms but between 2 and 16 ohms. Well happily it is and actually doing it on only one of the two taps offered by the UFO output transformers. You know when you can get this range of performance from a single tap something is going really well.

I fully expected at this part of the show, the measurements, to have some regrets about not using a higher primary impedance on the output transformers… but the 3.5K ish primary seems to be the magic bullet. I thought it would be higher.

The way I designed the UFO transformers was with reflected impedances in mind. For example; If you have a primary of say 5K and an 8 ohm secondary but hook that secondary tap to a 16 ohm load, the primary is actually going to rise to nearly 10K. The opposite is also true, a 8 ohm speaker could drop it to as low as 2.5K. So let’s say just for fun we wanted the tube to see a 2.5K impedance and we knew we were going to use a 4 ohm speaker. We could wind a transformer with a 2.5K primary and a 4 ohm tap, or wind one with a 5K primary and an 8 ohm tap hooked to the 4 ohm speaker. Get it ? : ). UFO transformers are set up with secondary taps that are set at 6 and 12 ohms knowing that connected speakers will range from 2 to 16 ohms and using the reflected impedance to actually set the impedance that the plate of the output tube sees.

Anyway this approach in combination with the way I voiced the frequency response seems to really work and I can’t take all the credit for it, as usual, because I’m not that smart. In fact I didn’t have any idea that so many 300B amps couldn’t handle a low impedance and actually rolled the response under those conditions! I actually just found that out tonight.

Audio Gods.

With respect to distortion, that is very tube dependent. But the way I have it currently configured with the WE300B and the Cryotone driver tubes and NOS RCA input is consistent with my first statement. At 1 watt it has around 0.5% THD At 8 watts it’s approaching 10% THD. But when comparing this to other 300B amps that might do 8 watts at 4% or less, pay attention to the frequency response and power output into low impedances. Remember an 8 ohm speaker will often have dips in the response that get dangerously close to 4 ohms. And 4 ohm speakers will have impedances that dip well below 3 ohms.

This means that the distortion of the amplifier will be different at different frequencies as well the high frequency response will also be changing with impedance. This is what drives serious audiophiles insane and keeps other audiophiles from getting serious.

So far at every possible impedance this amplifier has not rolled off at the ends, it actually rolls UP.  Just he exact opposite of virtually every other amp I saw measured. This and the fact that it takes so far over 3 hours to take meaningful measurements though all the combinations would probably short Mr. Atkinson out because it doesn’t make any sense relative to the norm.

Right now I am in the process of measuring everything on the other output transformer tap  and am presently doing the hardest of all the measurements with a 2 ohm impedance. I have special transformer loads that work more realistically than a ‘dummy load’ resistor.

FINISHED

63 measurements the last one being the most brutal test, a 2 ohm impedance on the wrong tap. Worse case scenario and it measured within 1.57dB I think, and was rolled UP at each end not down.  Full response from  20 to 20kHz. To measure higher than this I have to switch frequency generators and do the sweep manually. My guess is that this goes well beyond 20kHz. I used very high grid resistors in every stage of this amplifier. This would tend to drop excitement in the high frequencies but in this case you don’t hear any roll off and we measure the opposite, roll up at the extremes.



(click to enlarge)



Basically this response is legally flat because it is within 2dB from 20 to 20kHz in both of my settings.  In this shot, I did one channel in setting A and the other channel in setting B to save time, and there isn’t enough difference between the two to make any sense of why the sound is so different.  So what you see here is the worse case scenario, a 2 ohm speaker on the amplifier set on the wrong tap with the power output at 1 watt.






Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Kirk on 05/13/22 at 12:48:52

Hey Steve.  Any more insight into "hum" from this amp?  I would run this amp with my K-horns (~105db sensitivity).  If there is hum, would it be audible from the speakers when music is playing but quiet?  

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Bluemage on 05/13/22 at 15:24:29

I have a question about the output. You've mentioned different outputs from 2 to 8 watts when discussing varied levels of distortion. Does wattage output change in relation to the volume knob? IE, dimed out is 8 watts and somewhere around halfway is 4?

Thanks.

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Matchstikman on 05/13/22 at 15:31:39

I just checked out the dimensions of the ZF15L and those things are huge.  They take up more space than Klipsch Cornwalls.  Wow!

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Archie on 05/13/22 at 16:59:14

The 15L are big but they don't seem quite so imposing due to their relative thinness.

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Steve Deckert on 05/13/22 at 17:06:08



Quote:
I have a question about the output. You've mentioned different outputs from 2 to 8 watts when discussing varied levels of distortion. Does wattage output change in relation to the volume knob? IE, dimed out is 8 watts and somewhere around halfway is 4?

Thanks.



No volume controls are logarithmic as are speakers.  

With a 1 volt input signal, vol control maxed (5:00) the output is 5 watts. Vol control at (3:30) is 4 watts.  Vol control (2:00) is 1 watt.  Vol control at (noon) is around a 1/4 watt.

Now if your question is will it sound half as loud when the volume control is somewhere around half way when compared against all the way up, the answer is yes.



Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Bluemage on 05/13/22 at 17:38:03

Perfect, thanks for the explanation, Steve!

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Steve Deckert on 05/13/22 at 21:20:31

Everyone seems to be understanding the design except DancingSea who is hung up on the word EQ and is using it to get other peoples panties in a knot who read the SteveHoffman forum and trust me that is not productive or helpful to the design.  


Quote:
Steve has not explained anything on the forum that meets my standards. He has repeatedly stated that he is incorporating part of the ZRock2 (an equalizer/ gain booster) into the 300B. He has explained that the ZRock2 adds both gain, and equalization beginning at the 12 0'clock position. And that the effects of that equalization/ gain is not heard until the 1:15 position on the ZRock2 dial.


Unity gain starts at 12 and by 1:15 equalization just begins to become detectable. That is what is considered the magic spot in a ZROCK2.  If you measure this spot it measures within 1dB of flat. I don't understand why it is so confusing.

The reason I said I had no plans to mention the ZROCK2 circuit I used in the gain stage is because people could have the same missundstanding and get hung up on the term EQ.

If you look at the frequency response I just published it is concurrent with what I've stated which is that the frequency response is within 2 dB of flat.  Obviously the response is EQ'd by 1 db in the low and high frequencies... or it is just a natural anomaly of the circuit design. We won't know until I bypass it and remeasure.  

Please look at the Stereophile measurements of 300B (or any) amplifiers. There is a simulated speaker load, usually the black line, along with the standardized measurements. Guess what, it's not flat. No moving coil speaker is. Do we call our speakers EQ'd. I guess we better so that no one thinks the manufactures are hiding stuff ; )

I could if I wanted make an amplifier that had the opposite simulated response so that the Stereophile simulated speaker load measures a flat line.  That would give the speaker a flatter response so you see the rabbit hole here I assume.

No offense DancingSea , I read all your posts on SteveHoffman forum. Demonizing me in other forums because my transparency isn't up to your standard is a good way to get on my bad side.


Steve









Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Bluemage on 05/13/22 at 22:14:59


I'm new around here, but from what I can gather, Steve's never kowtowed to the expectations of the primped and preened audiophile community. It appears that he simply builds killer freaking products and people fall in line to get one.

In fact, his iconoclastic approach is what initially drew me in. Some of these things include, but are not limited to: reasonable prices, refusal to participate in hyped-up "audiophile" fanfare events, inviting the masses to his house for a yearly pilgrimage, detailed, transparent development threads, lack of pretension or elitism, and perhaps, best of all, entertaining descriptions such as "I'll set it to that magic spot which is flat, and just shit my pants at what the three components create!" Classic Steve.

I don't see many of those kinds of things coming out of the status quo audiophile community, thus, it's safe to assume that Steve couldn't care less about what they may or may not think about his creative process.

And if he doesn't care, perhaps, we shouldn't either. He's done okay without our help thus far.

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Brian on 05/14/22 at 04:54:47

"dummy load.  The name comes from people who think this is how an amplifier measures on speakers"            

;D Thank You, Steve. I enjoyed that one!

Brian

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by PDXDrew on 05/14/22 at 05:58:34

I think it’s great both he and I love to have our faces melted off when listening to his gear. Chris area never sounded so good. I’m Going to Texas. I can honestly say that I have a very difficult time understanding how I would get as much enjoyment out of my audio system if it wasn’t for  Decware. Not just providing amazing gear but providing an open and entertaining location to learn. This system is so musically involving- it’s more of a musical experience rather than just listening to music.I Already have a 25th anniversary ZMA and I can’t wait until Im listening to one is Steve’s 300B’s.

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by JBzen on 05/14/22 at 12:37:36


Quote:
Good people can have errors in judgment. Smart people learn from those errors and change course rather than double down on defensive and useless postures.


DS, above is a quote from your fingers. Please take note and adjust.

From my point of view a buffer gain tube stage was added to the 300b created by Steve Deckert and can be adjusted by tube rolling. That is all.......

John


Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Matchstikman on 05/14/22 at 14:32:14

I have a ZROCK2 that sits in front of a non-Decware amp and it makes the sound big and wide which to me is the way I like it.

So, question, this new technique of adding part of ZROCK2 tech into the 300b, will that technique ever make its way into the other Decware amps?  What would it do inside an SE84UFO?  Or, into one of the TORIIs?  Would it make sense there?

Steve, have you stumbled onto a new idea that could work on your other offerings?

And, could you put this bit of tech into my war horse blue Torii?  Yeah, that's the ticket.

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Steve Deckert on 05/14/22 at 17:51:33


None of the other Decware amplifiers required a second gain stage to bring the input sensitivity up to a useful level like the 300B amp did. It was because it needed an additional stage (tube) that we went down this path. For our other amps it would be best to just buy a ZROCK2.

Additionally, if I did the same thing to our other amps, it would be a flat measuring non-adjustable ZROCK2 which means it's not a ZROCK2. And even then if you wanted the tone shaping abilities of a ZROCK2 you would still have to use one just as would be the case with this 300B amplifier.

My whole fascination with the ZROCK2 circuit in the first place is what it does to the imaging and sound stage and midrange tone. That is not a function of altering (EQing) the frequency response because it happens before the ZROCK2 really starts shaping. It's just that I knew the combination used in that ZROCK2 gain stage with the particular caps and resistors and voltages and so on creates (extracts or reveals) a coherency that is not there without it. As I tried to convey before, it's more about the phase & timing effects across frequencies created by the values and placement of the parts than it is about actually changing the frequency response.

Every amplifier is it's own device. What works in one will work differently in another. There are no plans to try to repeat this in our other amplifiers because we would have to add another tube to each model and you would still have to buy a ZROCK2 if you wanted to do any shaping.

Steve




Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by will on 05/14/22 at 19:19:08

Looking over this thread sidetrack, though informative, it has been draining, and I hope I can help wind it up.

It has been made clear from many angles that associating Steve's use of the gain stage "magic" he adopted for this 300B design, as EQ, is not at all what this driver stage is about, or how it was described. And one reason this thread swayed some into audiophile "controversy," was probably real interest in learning. But getting a little too stuck on a “mental association” with a ZRock gain stage as EQ…. This was never real!

I can get the confusion, the ZRock used by many for signal enhancement and EQ. But, as this discussion reveals, the ZRock2 is able to be used specifically for gain stage improvements, the way many of us use it…. And there are others who like to enhance bass a little, or a lot, and even cut treble with higher settings. But, as Steve described when first discussing this gain innovation for the 300B, the signal refining gain stage that he discovered while developing the ZRock is NOT the EQ part of the ZRock. So, on its own, and fine-tuned for this purpose, it is a different thing than a ZRock altogether.

So why continue to feel and discuss EQ as real in this implementation? To me… seems in most any area of life, once our minds are relatively made up, it can be too easy to be reluctant around perceiving reality if it does not fit our determined ideology.

At the same time, we know audiophile biases and “controversies” can grow into entrenched collective ideologies that may contain enough fragments of the truth to appear real, but not be the whole truth, so not true…. And strongish bias against EQ presented as “purist,” can feel "real" for many. So having concerns about audiophile biases being such that a few vocal folks can make something healthy toxic, and empower biases of others with mistrust, anger, and unthought through “beliefs,” this is clearly real.

But when modifications of reality upset and “discredit” innovative development, to me that is simply self-defeating to our audio community… contributing to holding development back, and in turn, holding us all back from a more complete musical experience. So I get how concerns over ideologies around EQ can be potentially damaging. But at the same time, EQ has no real association with Steve’s 300B amp design innovations….EQ never having been considered…..

And God forbid if this semantic and understanding "controversy" were to cause Steve to talk less freely in development threads….I think not likely [smiley=50.gif], but I hope not because I really enjoy how free he is with conveying his excitement and discoveries.


Related, “less is always more” can be way too simplistic. From what I experienced with amp modifications, my Torii IV now has quite a few more parts than stock… but by any audiophile parameters, it sounds more complex and richly revealing, resolving, and musical due to the careful tuning and additions of complimentary parts. I started with an amp that was “purist” in design, and really well done at that. But by upgrading a bunch of those already resolving and musical parts and wires, with a little more transparent and resolving ones, it adds up, and the amp became more resolving and transparent than it was. And this in turn left room for adding parts if they too were musical and transparent, and without a net loss in "purity" of sound. In fact, with careful cap bypass tuning in the power supply, and signal path, we can often considerably improve all aspects of the sound by using more of the right parts in the right places. This conceptually proves to me, that with Steve’s tuning skills, this gain stage “addition” is very likely a beautiful innovation by most any audio standards, and one in a long chain of innovation for him.



Also related to this sidetrack and how ideas can modify reality... Looking at EQ, my take on the negative audiophile biases, are a lot like most of these negating biases.... not very well thought through or explored ideologies with some merit, in some cases. But often expressed in aggressive and macho ways by folks who like to argue and prove “why” they do not like something, or can't hear something, they tend to present their opinion as reality for all of us! Not a great concept since we all have very different system/rooms, some very resolving, and others pretty unbalanced and masked... And as much, since our perceptions, hearing abilities, and discernment skills can vary pretty dramatically…. there are a lot of ways and reasons that can cause one not to hear what another might hear totally clearly, or for one to be more skilled at tuning than another.

And having explored fine tuning EQ in depth from within my very good player software (adjusting the files before DAC, and therefore not having phase issues, additional components or cables, etc, and as a supplement to room work), I really love and depend on EQ. On the whole, it may be my most important "finishing tool.” Yet I can imagine how some may not prefer it, especially if done mechanically with measurements, and not by sound.  

And in reality, when compared to decent room treatment work, isn't room treatment in many ways a form of EQ, tuning room EQ issues to tastes (or measurements, or both) with diffusors and absorption.... Does that make room treatment bad if well done? This does point to another potential difficulty with EQ though.... the amount of EQ “needed,” if more subtle, can make system/room refining EQ easier. But if the system/room is way off, it could be difficult, maybe even impossible on its own to seamlessly integrate musically. Bottom line though, with so many variabilities, how can any assumptions about a potentially good tool be absolute?

Finally, to me, old beliefs are not as simple as they seem, and I think it is wise to consistently reevaluated on personal levels if we want to develop more optimal musical experiences more easily and quickly.

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by effluviography on 05/14/22 at 22:55:29

will - very nicely said - cheers - scott

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by LeftyEric on 05/15/22 at 02:28:29

"And God forbid if this semantic and understanding "controversy" were to cause Steve to talk less freely in development threads….I think not likely, but I hope not because I really enjoy how free he is with conveying his excitement and discoveries so freely."

I'd like to dwell on this great point for a moment...

Steve - for every person who contributes/writes often on this forum, there's likely five folks like me who have read nearly everything -- but don’t chime in.

I've thoroughly enjoyed following your creation process, either in real-time (like here) or when I bought my SE84UFO3 monos and then took to the forums (again) to understand your goals and process of building the SE84UFO3s a few years ago. It's like time traveling back to the days they were developed. What an enjoyable read, especially when my monoblocks were in a FedEx truck on the way to my house in a few days.  Getting this sort of scoop is rare! I'd argue this is partially why the proverbial Decware 'stock' is so high.

We have a more emotional connection to the product when we get to enjoy this entire "audiophile" experience. Reading about the creation then finally hearing it in YOUR room is, simply put, fun as hell.

Keep letting us peak behind the curtains. It keeps us engaged, builds the community, and should allow no sensible person to think you have deceived anyone - with so much of your design process literally hyperlinked on the product pages and permanently filling hundreds of forum walls.

BTW - My SE84UFO3's with upgrades sound blanking fantastic!  Keep being excellent with each design Steve.

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Bluemage on 05/15/22 at 04:50:13

Steve,

Will these bad boys hit the market cherried out, like a UFO25? Or will high-end caps and other 25th stuff be an add on?

Thanks.

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Steve Deckert on 05/15/22 at 05:07:42


All of your support is well appreciated. Even DancingSea whose initial concern started out trying to have my back which I deeply appreciated.

So tonight I am listening to the Holo Audio MAY dac driving a ZBIT connected to the Sarah 300B amplifier. The speakers are the ZF15L because basically I wanted to answer the hum question and I needed these 100dB speakers to see where it's at. Yes, I have my measurements but it's something I just needed to hear again. Last time I really paid any attention to it I was using different tubes.

Yes, you can hear hum on 100dB speakers in a quiet room but it's gentle. If you're triggered by hum, don't do it. At least not at this point in the design. Perhaps I will experiment with some high ripple DC supplies and see what happens.

Anyway, this combination is just intoxicating. So deep and rich and big and smooth, and vibrant. I really love these speakers on low power gear! The bass is just unbelievably good with this combination. The best analogy I can give you is that going from a regular hi-fi speaker to these is like going from a 4 cylinder front wheel drive car to a rear wheel drive big block with high torque at low RPMs and enough horsepower to keep you well ahead of the high RPM whizzbanger barking at your bumper.

After checking the hum I thought time to get back into checking the bass and performance, so back to electronica so I can study those leading edges and the almost infinite space that can be created in this make believe world.



Happy listening!

Steve





Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Steve Deckert on 05/15/22 at 05:32:15


Why does he listen to this?

I am listening for anything bad to happen. I am listening for mud. I am listening to how the amp deals with excessive heaviness. If it doesn't sound excessively heavy then it's doing well. I am listening for textures and seeing how long those can hold my attention against such a predictable and monotonous / repetitious experience. Is the amp deep enough to make this sustainable over time without having to change albums.

It's easy to evaluate bass performance on something tight and staccato but how does it fair on the opposite?  Something slow or veiled would sound muddy on this.


This is why.


Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Steve Deckert on 05/15/22 at 05:47:23



Quote:
Steve,

Will these bad boys hit the market cherried out, like a UFO25? Or will high-end caps and other 25th stuff be an add on?

Thanks.


Thanks for the question. My feeling is that the Anniversary mods, of which this is fully pimped out with, are needed to keep the tube from becoming an overly dominant part of the signature. The UFO25 is effortlessly extended, whereas this tube really isn't so we need to keep things extra fast throughout the circuit to wake this tube up a bit.

So this may be the only way it is offered.  I don't worry about these things yet, because they all come together in the final hours before it goes on the web site.

Getting back to hum, as I listen to these 100dB speakers on this amp, I can't imagine wanting to listen to it on different speakers because the sound is so over the top and you can't even begin to detect hum until the music has stopped and your brain has settled and your room is at 40dB noise floor.  Many people are going to wonder if they should avoid 100dB or higher speakers and for those who I detect are serious music lovers the answer is go for it!  You won't care.  The only way it would bother you is if you enter into this with the prerequisites that if you can hear hum it means something is wrong and or that you can't enjoy the sound.  Sadly there are many of us that fall into this box.


Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Bluemage on 05/15/22 at 06:16:38

Thanks for the response, that makes a lot of sense. I'd be perfectly fine with 25th mods baked into the price!

This amp sounds like it's shaping up to be a real beast. I, like everyone else in this thread, love reading the updates. The whole engineering process is shockingly interesting to read about.

I'm hoping to swing some Cornwall IVs sometime around the time this amp ships...or likely a little bit after. At 102db, I'm hoping to tap into some of that magic you're talking about with the 300b Sarah!

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Matchstikman on 05/15/22 at 18:38:16


Quote:
The only way it would bother you is if you enter into this with the prerequisites that if you can hear hum it means something is wrong and or that you can't enjoy the sound.


Steve, this hum, is that sort of like that 60hz cycle you hear with single coil guitar pickups?  The kind of thing that nobody hears while the music is going?  If that's the case, who cares about that?  That hum is livable to get the sound you want.

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by CAJames on 05/15/22 at 18:51:47


Quote:
Posted by: Matchstikman      Posted on: Today at 18:38:16

...If that's the case, who cares about that?



Quote:
Posted by: Steve Deckert      Posted on: Today at 05:47:23

... Sadly there are many of us that fall into this box



I'm triggered by hum. Pass the candle.

I mean I'm not going to get this amp regardless, but I really appreciate that Steve has the integrity to mention something that a lot of people would ignore if they noticed at all.




Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by DLM on 05/20/22 at 15:41:33

Hi Steve,
I've really missed your development updates for the last several days, so I thought I'd ask what might be a stupid question.  
I was wondering if you had a chance to try a different source with the Sarah 300B like your TT/ZP3 ?
Thanks,

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by will on 05/20/22 at 16:44:52

Me too CAJames, hum can be a hard one for me. Years of up and down subtle hum with my Torii, and getting it more fully solved a few years ago, when it shows up, I realize I have grown less able to take that frequency range. Putting a DAC I had not been using for a while, I got a ground loop recently. I could hear it from the seat a little, and realized I am indeed "triggered" by hum.

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Bluemage on 05/20/22 at 16:53:10

Yeah, I too am fiending for another update! I love getting on here and seeing a monolith of text written by Steve...especially the ones that come after midnight.

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Steve Deckert on 05/23/22 at 04:51:07

UPDATE MAY 22 / 2022

Experiencing it

We’ve come to the point where there is no more soldering or experimenting. Just experiencing it now. Experiencing it on my huge library of speakers. Experiencing it with different cables. Experiencing it with the different tubes. I am doing the same thing you would be doing had you just unpacked one a week ago.


Living with it

This is where I really know if I got it right. How consistent is it across this wide range of speakers and with different sources, and all the other variables. I am used to this, and have a reference with all our other amps, so the bar is set high. If it passes, it will be because I didn’t think about it.


Different speakers

So far there have been some interesting observations with respect to synergy. Sadly I didn’t invent something that can be synergistic with everything but it's always fun to try... That said it’s far from picky. All of our speakers sounds great with it so far, it’s just about “at what levels”. The Zen Master Series baffles will play loud with low distortion and there is an amazing synergy there. The power and scale is there for anything. No subs required. 

Smaller less efficient speakers in the mid to low 90’s sound great at low power. Incredible in fact. But because the amp has such a long ramp for clipping, it is easy to turn them up louder than you should and then become puzzled why they sound a bit compressed. Interestingly, the least efficient at 88dB is my House Speakers featuring the top of the line Scan Speak drivers and my own crossover. These actually get louder or to phase it more accurately, put more music in the room than the Tube Tots with the same 4 watts from this particular amplifier.

I will continue on this path until I have tried all my speakers.  

Think of this process like going to the same concert hall and listening to the same artists but each time you are setting in a different seat. With this many perspectives on the music (recording) you are certain to come to a higher level of understanding of the music. In this case, the amplifier.


The EQ that isn’t there…. Tube has rolled response, now it doesn’t.

As I mentioned in my prior updates, I took over 60 measurements for my own knowledge which turned out to be very interesting for reasons I discussed. All of these were taken into an inductive load instead of a resistive “dummy” load. Since the dummy load is the standard that people are used to when making comparisons, I will be re-measuring the amp on the other station with the resistive load and evaluating the differences. In any case, Because 300B amplifiers measure so poorly compared to many other amplifiers, I will be publishing the full specs and measurements when I do the web page. Think of it as a de-knotting tool for your panties in the spirit of full disclosure. ; )

You will see that many 300B amps suffer into 4 ohm loads compared to 8 ohms and 2 ohms isn’t even considered. It’s not the difference in power across these impedances but rather the changing frequency response and distortion. The tendency I saw in several amps was to dramatically roll the top end as the impedance drops. Holly crap batman… it’s a good thing I didn’t know this or the tendency to become microphonic for the past 30 years because I certainly would have used it to bash 300B tubes in defense of Decware’s choice to go with a $20, 2 watt tube instead. A tube which btw was $2 ea. in 1998 when I found it.


click to enlarge



By some miracle this amp measures the opposite and measures the same from 2 ohms to 16 ohms. That makes it a TRUE BONAFIDE ZEN TRIODE AMPLIFIER. All Zen Triode Amps can drive a 2 ohm speaker without sounding like crap. This is going to make it a lot more honest in the real world compared to these other amps I looked at. So that is exciting. It happens naturally, no complex crap to make it happen. When I say complex crap the image in my mind is a circuit board full of relays and logic chips to rearrange  an EQ circuit differently for each setting of the output taps… a true sonic nightmare.

The bass, mid bass, midrange is within .02dB of perfectly flat into this inductive load! Then a mild presence rise in the treble that we can hear. Couldn't ask for better with a 300B.




A preamp makes your source sound better - also can be that magic bullet for imaging and sound stage depth.

And this is where the meat of tonights update lies.  It is no secret that Decware amplifiers sound great without a preamp. But the reason that statement is true is because so many preamps sound worse than a Zen Triode Amplifier.

This is why there is so much pressure on the source component to have a “real” analogue output stage design so the music doesn’t sound lean or thin and so you get a good sound stage and imaging.

Because this tube requires more voltage swing and a preamp of sorts (additional gain stage) was needed a great opportunity presented itself. First of all, with this gain stage, it will be an absolute certainty that preamp will not be required to make the amp sound better because the gain stage IS the preamp. That means we eliminate an RCA cable and connectors and a ton of variables that come with a second component. But more importantly it means that we control everything about that signal path. How it sounds, and how it mates to the amplifier and the resulting synergy have been carefully crafted in a way that would have been unlikely to happen by chance with separate components.

This is particularly crucial when it comes to overall tone, dynamics, and imaging / soundstage depth.

Some of those rare unbelievable systems that exist on the planet are the result of years of trial and error component/cable matching until nirvana accidentally happens. That comes as the result of the preamp and cables associated with it. So this has been taken care of for you making it a unique model in the Decware line, as well as a very cost effective one.  

Low volume ultra high res listening

The imaging depth of this amplifier is world class. The depth is only possible by having that synergy between all the involved gain-stages that combine to drive an output tube. This is what I was talking about with the switch.





As you can see I eliminated the first Normal / Bypass switch a while back. Now it's just between the N normal and the : ) Enhanced. I have not liked it in the N setting on a single pair of speakers or with a single source or with or without a preamp. As predicted I will likely delete it completely.

I have been visiting the switch with each combination of speakers/cables/source and going between the normal and the enhanced setting and every time it is not even close. Normal setting is very good, but images like an amplifier with no preamp. Enhanced on the other hand is like the guy who spent 20 years finding the ultimate preamp and cable combination to create that holographic sound stage that you thought didn’t really exist - only in audiophile hyperbole or Greek mythology.

So what I am saying is that the depth of the imaging is insane. If your speakers are up against a wall, please don’t buy this amp ; (.  It would be such a waste.

All of this is happening from a stock CXNv2 and a pair of Decware RCA cables tonight. It shouldn’t but it is. This is called keeping one foot on the ground at all times. Someone asked if I have listened to vinyl or tape on it yet. HELL NO. That would be like trying to fix a water heater without tools. The tools are the mediocrity of the source components that may be used with the amplifier. Hell -- switch setting A -- the one I don’t like because it’s like someone stole the sound stage, would sound great on Vinyl as long as I never heard switch setting B. I prefer digital for setting up an amplifier due to the consistency and the obvious fact that this is what most will listen to.


Anyway, I love setting this amp up with the speakers pulled out into the middle or the room and pointed at my face only 6 or 8 feet away. It’s so holographic that it feels like being in space. Your room isn’t part of the sound like this, and the depth of each note and placement in the grid is just astonishing. It’s at this point that I begin to think about Danny from GR Research who doubled down on his controversial video calling out reviewers for not having worthy listening rooms. He was somewhat right. I wish everyone who doesn't have a well treated space would go to his place (or come here) and listen, because he knows as do I that the most audiophiles will never have a clue what is actually possible in a 3D listening experience until they take it out of their living space and create a dedicated treated space for the stereo, which means having two stereos. and another room somewhere... A big commitment to make without any real incentive.

I know for a fact that many people had they first heard what is possible would consider doing whatever it took to create a dedicated listening space that could recreate sound this way. Sadly to most stereo is like television. A flat entity associated with the boundaries of a living space where it remains out of the way so you can live in the space. AKA entertainment.

To me while I recognize that application, this is not entertainment. This is a real F-IN spaceship or time machine (same thing) that will give you an experience you didn’t know about -- that once you’ve had it you can’t not have it. It’s like learning to walk. Once you accomplish it, you can’t go back to crawling. It’s just not possible.

So I have to respect Danny for doubling down because it’s actually true for many what he says.

I bring this up, because this sculpting the imaging is the most difficult and time consuming part of the design process and we know very few will actually experience the full potential of it. As an artist I feel like I am painting in color with great contrasts and subtleties with the color palette and 80% of my audience is color blind, not because they can't see colors, but because they won't take off the shades.

Sound wise at last comparison this was getting dangerously close to the same level as the 25th Anniversary Zen Triode amp, and now that it is finished and nearly burned in, it’s getting hard to imagine that it’s not as good or better. Certainly it IS better if you don’t put a preamp with the UFO25 so there you go.

The T6 speaker




Tonight I went from the House Speakers to a polar opposite, a single driver crossoverless stand-mounted bookshelf prototype called the T6.  And at these intimate volumes the silkiness and depth of each note is so satisfying it almost feels like you are listening to music in slow motion.. By that I mean if music were video, and you watched the video in super slow motion and let your mind get lost in the amazing detail of physics as the picture evolves frame by frame - like when a bullet intersects an object and the whole scene takes 30 seconds to watch…

Just a different chair in the auditorium… and I can smell the varnish on the cello. These speakers are magical on this amplifier up to a modest volume. They are around 93dB/8 ohms. If I play them any louder than the House speakers on this amp (88dB 8 ohms) I stop liking them. You can't have too many speakers when you are testing amplifiers. Anyway, you will see these jewels on the web site soon. Tube Tots were a big success, we are already nearly out of them so another 30 pair is under way. This speaker is a touch better. It's a really nice match with the 2 watt Zen Triode amps and amazing with the TORII's and ZMA.

So that's it, just listening and listening. Still amazed at the smoothness and tone's ability to dissolve my pickiness about recordings. More stuff sounds good with this amp than any other which is to say it is a more forgiving amplifier and is doing it without dumbing things down.

Steve






Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Steve Deckert on 05/23/22 at 05:03:49



Quote:
Steve, this hum, is that sort of like that 60hz cycle you hear with single coil guitar pickups? The kind of thing that nobody hears while the music is going?  If that's the case, who cares about that? That hum is livable to get the sound you want.


You nailed it. It's very much like choosing between sound quality 7 with no detectable hum and sound quality 11 with barely detectable hum. If you have a switch to go between the two, which neurosis will win do you think?

So this is the last measurements I did regarding hum. It is 120Hz not 60Hz and actually is measuring about the same as our other amplifiers. The dotted line is the point of inaudibility on 94dB speakers. On 100dB it is barely noticeable. The top line is the 1 watt level.



I can't hear hum on any speakers we have except the 100dB, but as I mentioned I could care less because the reward in going to 100dB is so great it just doesn't matter.  Spectacular sound, GIANT scale, HUGE dynamics.  Whoops, there's some nerd in the crowd who just went up on stage to see what guitar amp the hum is coming from... no worries they got him.

Happy listening : )

Steve







Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Steve Deckert on 05/23/22 at 05:53:41


This is that time of night when the black hole begins to open up between the speakers... so in the interest of science I set up another test.

I put the T6 speakers less than 4.5 feet apart. They are the center pair of speakers in the picture. Have a look at the picture for a minute...


click to enlarge


I just got a sound stage from this amplifier on a pair of speakers placed 4.5 feet apart that wrapped around the room past my shoulders.  In the picture this is impossible to show because the picture isn't wide enough.  But to over simply things, picture the outside pair of speakers (DNA's) playing with a huge arc of sound outside and between the speakers.  

This is what I am hearing  and it's all from the center pair of speakers in the picture. It was so insane that the Audio Gods just showed up. No shit! Great energy is here and so with a high five and a nod off they go and here we are blessed by their interest in sound.

I have to laugh because when they left the room a few minutes later they pulled me outside myself and let me read this post from a skeptics point of view who doesn't know me and -- holy shit does it sound like a giant load of crap!!!  

But... we both know it's not a load of crap.

I agree with whoever said "if I had only two years left, I would take an amp over everything else." Same here. Absolutely. Over everything. It's the spaceship of the soul and that's how I approach it. You have to understand there is no benefit from putting this much time and passion into a design if it didn't have a higher purpose beyond money. This will create the same glow that you see in the tubes inside your heart. : )


Have a great night and happy listening! I'm almost feeling guilty.

Steve





Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Bluemage on 05/23/22 at 06:01:14

Thanks for the the update, Steve. I can't wait to own this amp. I'm still going to order the CSP325 with the 300b. Perhaps, it won't get used much since it sounds so good without a pre. Might the CSP325 give it a slight edge over not having it?

It's also really nice hearing that it's not super speaker dependent, and that we can speaker roll without wild swings in synergy. Sounds like a real winner.

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Steve Deckert on 05/23/22 at 06:20:14


I am listening to it now and in my mind I can easily overlap the CSP325 and what happens is it is making the CXNv2 sound like the HOLO Audio MAY dac.  You have nothing to worry about. Everything just got juicer. You're now swimming in it which is only possible when air achieves the density of water or you achieve the mass of a house fly.

My favorite thing about that preamp is how it shows you the perfect input level from your DAC via the VU tubes.  It's a masterpiece for those who want complete control over the gain structure. But getting the source level set right is what sets the stage for everything thereafter so this preamp is designed to show you when it's ideal using those cool tube meters.

Steve




Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Steve Deckert on 05/23/22 at 07:00:33


Well, it's only 1:00 A.M right? Damn.

I'm not going to say it, but this is the most lucid imaging I have ever heard.  It's sneaky.  This is now making $1500 for output tubes seem like a deal.

Holy crap!

The imaging is so sick!  It's doing things that are impossible.  All over the place.  

It pisses me off that I have to sleep.  It really does.


Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by BicycleJoe on 05/23/22 at 07:46:20

To sleep—perchance to dream. Ay, there’s the rub!

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Bluemage on 05/23/22 at 13:12:20

Right on, Steve. I'm definitely good with juicier!

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Lon on 05/23/22 at 13:44:53

Another exciting update. I can't wait (well I can, I will, no option) to hear this TRUE BONAFIDE ZEN TRIODE 300B SARAH AMPLIFIER with my HR-1.

I can't afford a fully treated listening space--that would be too expensive, a cost I can't pay, a divorce--but I have done the best I can which is an enlarged near-field listening space and I have achieved some amazing sound. Actually my SE84UFO3 Monoblocks with the mods are amazing me every day, and I've spent a few years now learning how to pilot them to the further reaches of sonic possibilities. I bet I can get even further, deeper with the Sarah.

Keep the updates coming!

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Bluemage on 05/23/22 at 20:12:55

Hey, Steve, will the Sarah have a mono switch?

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by CAJames on 05/23/22 at 20:25:44


Quote:
Posted by: Steve Deckert      Posted on: Today at 04:51:07

...Sound wise at last comparison this was getting dangerously close to the same level as the 25th Anniversary Zen Triode amp, and now that it is finished and nearly burned in, it’s getting hard to imagine that it’s not as good or better.


So, I guess the 6000 dollar question is why would one choose the UFO25 over the 300B, or vice versa? The watts? The preamp? The price?




Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by BicycleJoe on 05/23/22 at 21:20:05

So, I guess the 6000 dollar question is why would one choose the UFO25 over the 300B, or vice versa? The watts? The preamp? The price?

Steve said:  "It will be quite a bit different sound so no worries there. It just has to have the Decware magic that our other amps have."

IMO Personal preference, they will have their own personality and flavor simply because the tubes are different. 300B's have their own distinct flavor as do the 6P15P-EV, 7DJ8 or 6N5P dual-triode.

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Bluemage on 05/23/22 at 21:21:24

My best guess: The UFO is already proven. The Sarah has much to prove, and many are willing to give it a shot, solely for love the 300b tube. I've never even heard one, but people go nuts for it.

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Matchstikman on 05/24/22 at 03:25:28

CAJames:

Quote:
So, I guess the 6000 dollar question is why would one choose the UFO25 over the 300B, or vice versa? The watts? The preamp? The price?


And, is this $6000 before the $1500 WE 300b tubes?  Which, I think it is.  It will be up to each person that orders this masterpiece to acquire their own tubes.  

Still, it may be worth every penny for some people. This would be the kind of amp that would definitely have me go to a Decfest and listen to it in person.

Unless....send it to the Audiophliac.  I've purchased things he's reviewed just on his opinion alone and so far he's been on the money.  Not that there is any reason not to trust Steve's ears but it is always nice to have a second set of educated ears throw out an opinion.

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Bluemage on 05/24/22 at 04:18:38

I think the $6k was a reference to the UFO25th w/ CSP325. The 300b will be far less coin than that.

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Matchstikman on 05/24/22 at 04:40:00

Bluemage, maybe so, but if the Mystery amp is 6k, and this amp should outclass that one, I don't see how it wouldn't be 6k to start.  As it is, in order to get this jewel to shine it requires the best of the best components so it starts out at the high end from the start.

If this amp is out the door at 4k, that would be a steal, but that's still before the 300B tubes that are required to make this baby shine.

Just sayin', let's see what it goes for.

I'm saving my pennies on the final number.

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Bluemage on 05/24/22 at 05:26:18

The 300b, being a single ended triode, low watt amp, is more akin to the UFO than it is the Mystery Amp. There are lots of things going on with the Mystery that account for the steeper price tag.

But yes, sonically, the 300b should be one for the books!

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Ghostship on 05/24/22 at 20:45:38

Steve, have you considered if there will be an option for transformer-coupled balanced XLR inputs?

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Edsonic on 05/25/22 at 01:02:53


Whether or not the new amp offers balanced input option, the same thing can be accomplished with the outboard device called a ZBIT, which has an output level control. A balanced input would be fixed.


Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Steve Deckert on 05/25/22 at 02:53:24


XLR will not be an option on this amp due to space limitations. That was one of the things I weighed when trying to decide how large to make the chassis. Since using a ZBIT is actually better than having the transformers inside the amp due to the adjustability I decided not to include it.

Speaking of the chassis, I finished the mechanical drawings tonight and sent them off to my chassis guy in Chicago.

One of the unexpected pauses with sending off the chassis design was deciding what to do about the fact that my new blue power cord won't work with it. That power cord won't bend in two directions, only one. The IEC I will be using in the 300B amp is sideways. I chose this IEC for a lot of reasons but mostly because the inside the amp is so cramped and the input jacks are so close the power cord that I wanted the IEC and even the power switch to be completely shielded inside a metal can for this project. And I have to stick with it. So the amplifier is not designed around the power cord, we will just use our other power cord that is flexible.




Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by BicycleJoe on 05/25/22 at 03:01:16

Steve I have ordered the DHC-3 blue power cords for The RACHAEL and ZP3, are they appropriate?

Since we are talking AC I'd also like to ask in a large 120 apt building what would you think more beneficial, a power conditioner or a regenerator?

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Steve Deckert on 05/25/22 at 18:54:02


Isolation transformer to decouple you from the grid.

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Sb66er on 05/25/22 at 20:03:23

XLR vs ZBIT...I've been somewhat following the threads where members talk about balanced XLR and the benefits, as Paul McGowan explains, distortion/noise can't pass along that balanced XLR input to the end point...noise is more prevalent and a byproduct across RCA.  

2nd observation, XLRs are offered on Decware amps, and XLRs "can't have noise" so, of course, I ordered my Torii MK5 with XLRs...then this and other members and threads say to just use a ZBIT, does the same thing...except that idea AGAIN goes against many of what you say should be avoided...more circuits, longer runs, reducing distortion/noise at all costs...but then isn't one introducing all of the unwanted circuits, longer runs, allowing noise across the RCAs required with a ZBIT configuration?

How is introducing a ZBIT in the circuit NOT blasphemy towards doing everything that putting XLRs on an amp and a DAC is all about?   Why isn't DAC to AMP via XLR (one set of cables) superior to 3 sets of cables (2 sets being RCA) and adding boxes (ZBIT + Zrock, etc)?  

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by BicycleJoe on 05/25/22 at 23:57:06

Thanks Steve Isolation transformer to decouple you from the grid

I tried to send you a PM but after I spent some time composing it and sent it to you it just disappeared saying I was not authorized or blocked I'll try and reach out to you tomorrow or make an appointment to do so

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Edsonic on 05/26/22 at 02:37:56


Quote:
many of you  . . . [advocate] reducing distortion/noise at all costs..

I've been reading through these forums for a long time (a good number of years prior to registering) and I only occasionally see someone that adamant about toeing the ultra-purist line. If we take the 'reducing distortion at all costs' dictum to it's logical extent none of us would be here, since in comparison of roughly similar quality amplifiers tube amps nearly always have more distortion than SS amps.


Quote:
. . .  .but then isn't one introducing all of the unwanted circuits,   . . .  [using a ZBIT]. 

A) It's one circuit, not 'circuits'.  B) It's not adding a circuit, it is relocating the L/R conversion transformers from inside the amplifier to in front of the inputs.


Quote:
. . . Why isn't DAC to AMP via XLR (one set of cables) superior to 3 sets of cables (2 sets being RCA) and adding boxes (ZBIT + Zrock, etc)?

I'm not sure where you're getting the "2 sets being RCA" from. The chain would be DAC - XLR - ZBIT - RCA  - amp input. The one set of RCA cables is the only thing added vs. direct XLR connection. It's not overly difficult to find a 1' shielded RCA cable if one looks. Even a 1 meter well made shielded cable should not introduce any perceptible noise (or it might, if you live close to a transmitting tower).

Aside all that, many ZBIT owners enjoy having and making use of the adjustable output, as it provides extra gain configuration ability. That functionality is not obtainable when the transformers are inside the amplifier.

As for understanding why one would use a  ZROCK, you might find better answers if you pose that question in the ZROCK2 subforum:

https://www.decware.com/cgi-bin/yabb22/YaBB.pl?board=zrock


Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Steve Deckert on 05/27/22 at 06:05:48




Tonight after a long thunderstorm, me and my listening buddy are spending more serious time with the amp. Still rotating through speakers.  I found another synergy that goes a bit beyond... the DNA with the new drivers I'm testing. They are remakes of the vintage Diatone 5 inch full-range drivers and man are they good in this little cabinet. Everything about them is right and they really show off the amp. I did not realize how tight they can hit until tonight.

And this is why voicing an amp is such a stressmare.  As you know we are down to two voices on a switch. I have been trying as hard as I can to pick one and eliminate the switch, because on the whopping 4 or 5 pair of speakers I've listened to it on so far one setting simply rules.

Well that all changed tonight. I spent an hour or so with the switch in my "favorite" setting and then switched to the DNA speakers. After just a few minutes I became restless and decided now would be a good time to visit the switch and make myself listen to the setting I had predetermined I didn't like. So I flipped the switch and after a track or two (I always use random play for this type of evaluation) and then this rather amazing track with 0.00 limiting came on and I got drawn into how incredibly tight the drum hit was on it. Like tightest I've ever heard maybe. I was falling into the black hole on music I don't even necessarily like. But the imaging, frequency balance and dynamics simply grabbed me like a magnet.



Then I switched the voice back to the one I thought I liked better, and it sounded like a different master of the same recording. I had to do it several times over the next 30 minutes. Goes to show if you hunt long enough you will find the key that unlocks the mystery. So now we know there will definitely be the switch on the production model and she will have two voices. You can all fight over which one is better.

One was so clean and tight... the other was rich with more depth. The two voices created two completely different sound stages, and two completely different masters of the same recording

. I am still Cheshire stunned.

And these speakers... it's a double whammy because frankly I wasn't expecting much in comparison to the Tube Tots, the secret T6 prototypes, and the House Speakers... but what a wonderful surprise...

The dynamics of this combination -- in this voicing with these tubes -- is just nuts. BTW, the Cryotone 6922's got replaced with 6N5P which have a touch less gain and I wanted to see how they worked in this gain structure. As I expected, fabulous because we now have a low mu triode driving them, the 12AU7. I am just so impressed with the spank of these speakers. They are low power, so if overdriven by a TORII for example, they can start to break up at high volume. But with this amp there is no way to make that happen, and in the sweet spot of the amps power output, these are just perfect. Not loud. Perfect.



This is the Diatone P610S. About a 20 watt speaker. Probably around 94dB. I haven't measured it yet.  In this DNA horn cabinet the bass is so rich and deep and satisfying on this type of Electronic music, you just don't crave anything. But this amp and this speaker in this cabinet has besides the most natural extended bass and glass smooth midrange, on dynamic music there is an upper midrange crack that is special.  I have not heard it before. So tight. So right. I didn't know a 300B tube could spank like that. Pretty flippin impressive.

The synergy here is as good as the ZF15L baffles with this amp.  Totally different, but  almost exactly the same.  Simply amazing.  

So you might think, gee, would I spend possibly up to 6K on an amplifier and tubes and pair it with a pair of these somewhat delicate crossover less drivers in this tiny tower horn cabinet... in a 16 x 20 room?  ...YUP.  You would.

It's actually been awhile (obvious) since I have listened to the DNA horns and the low bass texture is just intoxicating. Especially from a small package like this. I think it starts rolling off a 40Hz, but as I said I haven't measured it. Previous drivers in this cabinet went lower, but this is the best bass by far. AND it sounds like it goes as low. Deceptive but true.

These actually sound exactly like the DNA2 now but with a dynamically tighter crack in the upper midrange. This is a more natural sound than the previous driver, albeit not as fast or extended, they are actually tighter.

Happy listening!

Steve







Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Steve Deckert on 06/04/22 at 06:13:45

UPDATE JUN 3, 2022

Still listening to the 20 watt max Diatone drivers in the DNA2 horn cabinets with this amp and I just don't want to unhook it. It's so complete.





You can see where they are placed... so wide and with so much crap next to them.  None of this should work.  But, as I have witnessed a million times in my room, when things get in the zone, it doesn't matter how much crap is in the way -- it just melts and the music manifests as if all that crap literally wasn't there. This week, this combination... has been an example of just that.

I'll have some fun with a video or two soon but sadly it will in no way capture this illusion accurately. I presently have 4 pair of speakers in an arc in front of me and you can't tell which speakers are playing at a distance of only 6 to 7 feet. They all have the same soundstage, which is the width of the room, despite the large discrepancy in placement. Is it the amp? Tonight it is clearly a synergy between the amp and the voice setting and the speakers. Just like last week. I just don't want to unhook it and try anything else. You all know what is in this room, so for me to say that...

I now see why Diatone 610 drivers are bringing upwards of a grand a pair from Japan. If I were going to build a console stereo like the 1961 Zenith stereo unit made the year I was born, I would put this 300B amp in it and two of these Diatone speakers in it. I'm serious. It would be a serious contender for face melting. That's what I would call it... The face melter.

I really love this hobby, as we all do...  every time I hear something wonderful like this, it feels like flying for the very first time which is not unlike the feeling of hearing an utterly lucid 3D soundstage for the first time where it is so present in space that you can hear all the way around each instrument which is what makes perfect reproduction transition into sounding real.

This combination, the speakers in particular, are small like the Caintuck Audio baffles and have a similar unbelievable image specificity and sound stage size.  Something you would expect from Giant speakers in a large space.

So I will continue to enjoy it over the weekend as this amp and the WE300B tubes continue to break in. I am very happy with the sound of this amplifier at the 4 watt output I designed it for. The ability to grow to 8 watts with higher distortion is also nice because it means that at 4 watts there is a sort of RMS headroom for sustained notes. Don't mistake that for the instantaneous peak power of of tubes which is very high. This just drives that number higher making the 4 watts a little more substantial.




Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Lon on 06/04/22 at 10:43:54

This is great news. I am sure that the Sarah would sound great with the HR-1 in my room and for me the analogy to the old console strikes home as I grew up with my Dad's Dynaco/AR system in a cherry wood cabinet with 12" ElectroVoice full range speakers built in--and that's a heartbeat sound that is a subconscious reference for me.

Now I get to experience all those that are new to Decware are while waiting the long time for delivery.

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Bluemage on 06/04/22 at 15:51:05

I've officially changed my order from the MKV to the 300. I'm aboard and ready to roll on the Decware SET train! I'm quite thrilled with the whole prospect.

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Steve Deckert on 06/07/22 at 06:08:10


I'm sure that a lot of this is simply the hour count on the amplifier and the WE300B tubes which state 500 hours for burn in, but the sound and the imaging specificity, depth and scale is as good as anything I've ever heard... and then I realize I am still listening to these small DNA speakers on the outside of the arc in this picture and the fuses in my head pop. You just can believe what is happening in here! For all it lacks in low bass it competes for the title of best I've ever heard. I just want to keep listening to it, and don't want to try the other speakers yet, it's just too good. To do so would be like having sex and then stopping just before you finish.  Sorry I know that's super crude and I apologize, but it's so accurate. The point being why the hell would you ever do that!?!?  


click to enlarge



Anyway it's a sound I find hard to put into words, but to say vocals are to die for is a grotesque understatement.

This has so far been a very happy amp to live with.  It can stay on all day, never gets hot hot, and is well behaved being cathode biased. I know I've said this before being one of the biggest power transformers we've used to date, it has turned out to be a gentle giant.  Always soft starts without any noise or drama.  Easiest amp on rectifier tubes so far which is with some great irony considering the size of the transformer but the 4 uf choke supply makes sure things are easy on the rectifier tube.

That said, my favorite rectifier in a preamp I made for ZMF is the TJ Full Music 274B.  That product uses 8 uf, but is only 360 volts.  Sarah is about 460 or so and settles to around 417.

When I tried this tube in Sarah it came on fine with no drama and sounded great! Then in less than a minute or two it was lit up like a Christmas tree!  The mesh plates engulfed in bright yellow white plasma.  It did it twice but continues to work perfectly in the preamp.  Also the preamp is 30ma or so while the amp is 160/170ma.  The amp falls within the rating of the tube, but the tube falls short of its rating.

So I am doing this listening with a N.O.S. RCA 5U4 which is kind of a standard.  I have more 274B tubes on the way so we'll see if they do better.  A mesh plate is not really designed for this kind of current so if one does work it will probably be the exception not the rule.

I will be updating the web page on the DNA speakers very soon, so just sit tight.  

Steve





Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Lon on 06/07/22 at 13:42:17

I've always been interested in mesh-plate rectifiers but haven't been able to determine if there are any compatible for the Decware amps. Interesting.

The development and seasoning of the 300B Sarah is fascinating to read of. I'm glad I'm on the list.

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by GroovySauce on 06/07/22 at 15:25:25

Lon, I'm running EML 5U4G mesh in my Torii. The EML 5U4G calls for a max of 40uf cap. Torii MKIV is 47uf. Running a little out of spec. MrDerrick has been running one in his UFO25th for ~3 years.

The sound is glorious! beating my previous favorite RCA 5U4G from the 1940's

The way it renders the detailed texture of music is mind bending. It's light and airy, and at the same time rich and powerful.

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Lon on 06/07/22 at 15:59:57

Thanks GS. I'll look into it. I keep returning to the Sophia Electric Aqua 274B and this one might beat it. May take a while to afford a pair.

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Rivieraranch on 06/07/22 at 16:07:28

To do so would be like having sex and then stopping just before you finish.  Sorry I know that's super crude and I apologize, but it's so accurate.

Audius Interruptus?

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Kahuna Jack on 06/07/22 at 19:36:31

thats a beautiful amp ! Ive never lived with a 300b amp but it has always been on my radar. I was eye balling a very popular 300b amp before I bought my Decware but things like plastic molex connectors connecting the transformers , pcb mounted power/driver tube sockets , pcb mounted rca jacks etc  basically everything my audio journey has taught me to try and avoid kept me from pulling the trigger even though Im sure its a fine sounding amplifier. Point to point is in a way a form of life insurance to me.

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Steve Deckert on 06/08/22 at 04:35:26


Yes, that is the stuff that ruins the sound.  Even just one item from that list can kill it so you can imagine the whole collection.

Steve


Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Matchstikman on 06/08/22 at 04:51:27

Steve, I gather all of this research you have done is based around the WE 300b tube.  Have you tried the setup using a less-expensive 300b tube?  How drastic is the change in sound?  

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Dr3wman on 06/08/22 at 05:28:24

Matchstick-   From Steve in early April:

“ I ordered Gold Lion 300B tubes at $400 a pair just before the war made everything Russian harder to get.  I will be placing my order for the Western Electric pair tomorrow.  My plan is to voice it using the modestly priced Russian tube, or a JJ tube since that is what many will use in the amp... I mean let's be honest with ourselves. Then when the WE get here I can experience a good AB and make sure it passes without any tweaks to the circuit. To be more clear I have set the amp up specifically for the WE 300B and am seeing how alternates perform at those settings.  Those settings are 383V 65.3 mA”

Not sure how much A/B has been done since the WE went in, but I know he did not initially have them as he was designing.


Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Matchstikman on 06/08/22 at 13:23:10

Dr3wman, I read that, too.

However, I have not read where he has actually used the other tubes in an actual test for comparison purposes using the current version of the amp.  From what I can tell all of his reports are based on using the WE 300b which apparently is out of this world.

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Doug on 06/09/22 at 02:20:29

Kahuna,

I’m curious.  What popular 300B amp is made with all those crappy, cheap components?  

And I am in full agreement…….Steve’s new 300B amp is a thing of beauty!

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Kahuna Jack on 06/09/22 at 19:54:14

@Doug

weak area (cost saving) in design and construction is probably a better way to put it I suppose but the Elekit amplifiers use plastic molex connecters to connect those beautiful transformers to the circuit board and the tube sockets and rca jacks are mounted directly to pcb not the chasis, all potential problem areas. It is a kit built amp keep in mind.

in my hands on real world experience I have seen burn/heat marks on pcb's with tube mounted sockets as well as stressed/broken solder points from insertion and removal of tubes both power and driver. I have also tried to fix more then a few times broken rca jack solder points even cracked circuit boards.... case in point , Against my better judgement I bought the smaller Elekit 8200 used (for a friend lol) and it played fine for 2 days until I tried the 2nd set of input jacks and swapped out driver tubes and guess what failed?? rca jacks and driver tube sockets solder points. Can it be fixed?? of course it can. Does the amp sound good?? yes it did, very good in fact.
But cracking open a amplifier and seeing everything soldered point to point and all jacks and tube sockets chasis mounted is a beautiful sight and comfortable feeling singing a song of longevity and as Steve mentioned it results in improved sound quality as well as the control of sound quality. No ribbon cables or thin pcb traces to fight with in the pursuit of perfection.

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Doug on 06/10/22 at 02:17:17

Kahuna,

Though I haven’t taken a close look at the Elekit amps, I just had a hunch that might be the amp to which you were referring  Thanks for the info!

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Steve Deckert on 06/10/22 at 02:51:42


My mentor was a guitar amp guru who designed his own after 30 years of repairing guitar amps and stereo equipment. He is where I learned to hate circuit boards with heat producing tubes and just in general. He worked in a music store as the head tech. Believe it or not, his job was to take every new amp that came in the store completely apart and hand solder the wave soldered circuit boards and then put them back together and test them before they could go out on the floor.  

Circuit boards... They don't ship well. Vibration causes issues with solder and connectors. They don't appreciate current. They don't appreciate heat.
Wave soldering sucks. There is video on Youtube of a Fender Champ tube guitar amplifier being made from start to finish in 11 minutes.

Steve : )

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Steve Deckert on 06/10/22 at 03:22:56


Soon I will be burning in the Cryotone 300B's and I have some Chinese models that are lost in shipping... so it will still be awhile before I can do a fair comparison. I will revisit the Gold Lion 300B's while I wait.

Meanwhile I got another rectifier tube today, a PSVANE 274B, I think it ran around $400.  It is so far working well with no issues on start up. The sound is good right out of the box and I've noticed the tubes are biasing lower so there is more of a voltage drop than the 5U4 which we already knew would happen.



click to enlarge


It's a good look. The right look artistically speaking. To get it to the correct height an octal tube saver was used to add another 30 millimeters.




Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Steve Deckert on 06/10/22 at 03:43:09



click to enlarge


It makes me want to change the AC heater frequency from 50/60Hz to 432Hz...  You'll have to click on it and view it full res to see what I mean.  

Is there anything cooler than a vacuum tube? The only equal I can think of is the V8 engine.





Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by morp on 06/10/22 at 07:45:46

I see you went right to the top-of-the-line PSVane ACME 274b :) It's such a beautiful looking (and sounding) tube.

Do you have a WE422a or Metal GZ34 on hand? They're my go to rectifiers and both have a strong (though different) perspective so I'm curious how they'd sound in the Sarah 300B. If it'd be helpful, I'm happy to send them to you for testing.

Thanks,
Richard


Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by acousticsguru on 06/11/22 at 21:09:32

GZ34 Metal Base is one of my favorite two rectifiers (overall my favorite - depends a bit on the choice of input tube) in the UFO25, the other or second favorite being the Shuguang GZ480. That might look cool in the new 300B amp (and it seems to add treble extension and clarity wherever it fits), but these are both NOS, difficult to find and expensive. The Psvane ACME looks nice, but it's nowhere close in sound quality in any amp (or for that matter Lampizator DAC) we've rolled it in. If it were a matter of picking the prettiest, my pick there would be the Emission Labs 5U4G Mesh Plate - although the looks depend on correct (sideways) orientation.

Greetings from Switzerland, David.

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Steve Deckert on 06/12/22 at 01:51:13


Well the ACME 274B has so far proven to be almost surreal smooth / soft with perhaps the most holographic imaging and sound stage so far. But the amplifier lacks some punch and that clean Zen line I gravitate towards. So with sharp speakers or rooms and high efficiency this might be the holy grail. For me it's not going to be a daily driver because only some of the speakers might it be the magic pill for.  

Right now I am trying a PSVANE 5AR4, which is kind of the target tube for this amplifier since it soft starts the output tubes. I will compare this against some NOS and then get a Cryotone 5AR4. That will be informative.

This is so far the best clarity and punch, better than the NOS RCA 5U4. Considering the difference in price this 5AR4 definitely wins in Sarah.  Even if they were the same price it would win.  Even it it were more it would win.  It wins.

Steve


Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Steve Deckert on 06/12/22 at 03:43:02


UPDATE JUN 11, 2022

(Holy crap! Is it really 2022?)

Tonight my mission is to roll rectifiers and see what the results are... how much will it change the sound.

I knew it going in, but despite knowing, was in denial and only expected subtle differences. I was mainly focused on the bass hit and how deep and tight it was.

I think I'm almost embarrassed to admit that I have been somewhat shocked at what I have just heard happen to my amplifier... and it took things so far beyond bass performance that it was like listening to different circuits.

Take away: It's so fundamental. It's like the cone. You go to the ice cream shop and you get either a regular cone or a waffle cone. They are different. You can't imagine one into the other in the middle of your ice cream experience.

Perhaps a bit abstract, so let's just get to the nuts and bolts of it.  Each rectifier tube I tried tonight was no different than bringing a different amplifier into the room.

This is serious shit.  It's always been this way but you just don't get used to it especially when you make or sell the amplifiers. You instantly realize that depending on what tubes are in the amp at the time of audition will determine what flavor the ice cream is, or what kind of cone it's in and we all know that everyone likes one kind or the other so God forbid what if we pick the wrong cone... and don't have the other kind available?

See with busy solid state receivers you don't have this problem. It's so dumbed down that it's just an ice cream cone. Period. There is no distinction between the regular cone or the waffle cone, or even the flavor of the ice cream. In fact it's more like an ice cream flavored cracker.

Highly exaggerated on the one hand and soberingly accurate on the other depending on the price of your SS amp(s).

Sorry, just having a little fun to make a point that the transparency of these amplifiers are so far beyond any of the supporting components shy of a top tear all triode analog rig with passive RIAA... that when given a room to unmask in, things like tonights innocent experiment with a half a dozen rectifiers would have become more a discussion of "did you hear anything?"

I am just floored at the difference in sound between each of the rectifiers I tried, and this is why we try them. Trying to find something in current production that makes the amplifiers sound like they do from a hand picked stash of NOS tubes.






Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Steve Deckert on 06/12/22 at 04:33:49


So with a baseline of the NOS RCA 5U4 for the past couple weeks... which btw garnered no complaints... I got the high dollar PSVANE ACME 274B Tube this week...

Before you say anything -- I had too right?  ACME? The ACME Full Wave Anti Road Runner Rectifier Tube piece of kit for the determined Coyote. You can see the large box with the printing on the side right?

So yes, at around $400 a crack it looks the part and so in it went and as I mentioned the resulting sound was surreal in it's smoothness. It captured the "tube sound" where you can't make anything sound bad. Dynamics were muted but in a beautiful way and the imaging and sound stage was by far the best spatially delineated matrix you'll ever hear. It was like doing mushrooms or dropping acid. Dreamy and floatatious. Silky to an extreme. Like having your whole system running on batteries inside a faraday cage.

Noticing the drop in honesty and dynamics and presence compared the 5U4, I decided to use a 5AR4. It would have less voltage drop than even the 5U4 and way less than the 274B so we should get more of the Zen Triode Sound back.  The only one I could find at the moment was our stock of PSVANE 5AR4 tubes which I'm pretty sure sell for around $60 each.  This is a humble looking little tube and a tiny fraction of the price of the ACME and made from the same company!  

So I pulled out the ACME274B and installed the PSVANE 5AR4 and it frankly smoked the ACME. Yes, the acid trip is wonderful but you can't do that all the time. Now the amp sounds like the 5U4 only with more transparency and speed. Bass control is superior and really everything is superior.

Hmmm.. Let's try a Gold Lion GZ34 and see what happens...

How do the Russians do this? Here is that familiar deep smooth almost heavy Russian sound! It sounds like a different amplifier. It sounds like you just changed coupling caps from something ultra exotic to ultra affordable but forgiving and musical. It's darker, heavier, slower.  It's nice but wow we have lost a lot of information. The resolution of the amplifier has dropped.

OK lets try a JJ GZ34 and see what happens. It has a much slower start like the PSVANE 5AR4 which we desire in this amplifier. And yes right away we are back in the game with similar sound to the PSVANE 5AR4. The bass has more girth with this tube and it is really very acceptable. Probably superior in non dedicated listening spaces with slightly less resolution in exchange for more tone and girth in the low end.

Based on what I am hearing between the PSVANE and JJ there is a good chance the Cryo Treated JJ from Cryotone will be the best sounding tube in this amp for daily drives to work and back ; ) That probably holds true for all Decware amplifiers that use 5U4 rectifiers.  (Hint)_

But, if not, this PSVANE 5AR4 is really blowing my mind. Is it a fluke?  I have 24 more of them in stock on the site so let's grab at random a different one and see what happens...

Sounds the same.

Keep in mind that the only tube that was fully burned-in is the 5U4 RCA reference so after 300 to 500 hours a lot could change. Still I have a skill at hearing potential pre-burn-in that usually foreshadows the final result and these PSVANE 5AR4 are the big surprise of the evening for sure!

I am more than happy with the way the amplifier sounds with this tube that I will likely ship all the amplifiers with it.  I am still using 6N5P which are lower gain and silky. Changing those to a more aggressive higher gain tube like the 6922 would  certainly effect the outcome  

As you can see I am in the process of determining what the reference default set of tubes will be that the amplifier ships with...  It takes time.

The chassis are being made as we speak so while we wait it is just a deep exploration into the amplifier itself. So far ZERO urge to alter anything.  I absolutely nailed it. Got it right, there is no doubt in my mind about it.

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Steve Deckert on 06/12/22 at 06:06:34


I think the way the evening might should go is like this... PSVANE 5AR4 for the first several hours while you get all of your audiophile needs satisfied.  It's perfection redefined. It's how we want the amplifier to sound. The resolution and speed is glorious -- but -- then after a break and a scotch or a tea you should come back and put in the ACME 274 which would be like putting on soft slippers. The evening could then shift from how perfect everything sounds to how lucid a 3D sound stage can get. The softness is surreal and deep. It sucks you in and it's like boating on the lake without hitting any white caps. Serene and perplexingly there-there. You can reach out and touch it. It's more real that you, because you can get out of the listening chair and it doesn't shift around. It stays in the same 3D space and your perspective on it changes as you walk around in the room. When this level of imaging dominance happens it no longer matters if your speakers are perfectly positioned or even if there are dozens of things the space that perhaps shouldn't be.  It just makes everything disappear without any of the fuss or science.

With the 300B being a directly heated tube and with me running it with old school AC filaments using a directly heated rectifier such as the 5U4 or 274B brings the output tubes to full on almost instantly. They are fully on long before the input tubes come to life so as the input tubes come to life, there is depending on the tubes often tiny muted pops or crackles, perhaps two or three during that warm up cycle.  

With a normal Zen Triode Amplifier using a triode wired pentode the tube is indirectly heated and therefor soft starts around the same speed as the input tubes which are also indirectly heated.  So you can see the difference.  This is why it is ideal to use 5AR4 in this amplifier.  The output tubes will not come on until much later in the warm up cycle and the meters will show this as you watch them waiting for them to jump to 60 or 70 mA. The result being whatever subtle pops or clicks on start up will be reduced or entirely eliminated.

If I were using circuit boards I could create a delayed high voltage circuit using a relay or large transistor to switch on the B+ well after the input stage has come to life.  I could actually create it with obsolete tubes all point to point as well but now we need a larger chassis and more money... But it would be a lot easier to just use circuit boards.  And if I'm going to use a transistor to switch the B+ on or off then I may as well hang some more on there to regulate the voltage against the dynamic current draws of the amplifier.  If I'm doing that I may as well put constant current sources on the cathodes of the driver tubes with more transistors.  Add a few ribbon cables and plastic connectors, the capacitance of the traces on the board and the artifacts of all the transistors that are "just helping out" and you have a modern day sharp grainy less refined artificially dynamic 2 dimensional mess. And it would just be a waiting game to see how long it took to break or malfunction.
Whoops, did I say that out loud?      

This amplifier is turning out to be a real joy to experience and live with over time. So responsive to tubes and and generally hard to make sound bad.

It is has given me some pause to realize that the tube is genuinely unique in the world of hi-fi because it well pre-dates hi-fi. It was designed for human voice. Rolled off on both ends and somehow slow and fast and the same time to keep the tone and textures in tact no mater the distortion content of the transmission. I can pretend to be a fly on the wall during it's development and watching them find those windows of ideals for the application and get a tube that was forgiving and generiously revealing of tone so that the people on the other end of the phone thousands of miles and hundreds of tubes away could recognize the caller. If we used video tubes that had the resolution to pick up a nat fart on Mars coast to coast calls would have been largely noise with some resemblance of a voice in the background unless the caller was next door.

It is an impressive tube for what it is and I honestly look forward to hearing the Decware family report on it's sound as these begin to ship. It is definitely an amp that I could live with as my only amplifier. Especially if I was trying to epitomize the experience of tube sound. Haha, I almost have to laugh as I listen to it tonight on a wide variety of music at how far away this sound is compared to an audio video receiver...  

Music really does sound more real. It has more hit. More weight. You don't have to turn it up. It's Class A1. It delivers nearly 100% usable power. It has tone, and is dynamically more organic and representative of real life than any transistor ever made. Even Mosfet's. Exception might be some of Nelson Pass's rare jewels that he collects and turns into audio art. But most of the busy feedback laden crap out there doesn't play in this world.

The truth is this is what people who want to experience the tube sound are looking for and it is the exact opposite of solid state in that is has 5 times the density and does not have to be turned up to smash your face. It has depth, air and space. It is not flat. it is the opposite of flat.

So in the end I feel that with the 5AR4 rectifier and 6N5P driver tubes and the NOS 12AU7 of your choice you can use the voice switch not to mention the output impedance switch to make this amp sound exactly the way you want it to within the Decware window of experimentation.  No matter what you do you can't change the sound enough to make it sound like not a Decware amp.

I am listening to it tonight on the 88dB house speakers.  It has to be turned up to 3/4 witch is as loud it can go without high distortion.  So right at 4 watts and the listening level in my room is just perfect. I wouldn't want it louder.  Bass is crushing when needed.

I know this is not the target speaker for this amplifier, but for those who just want to seriously listen, an 88Db hifi speaker with a crossover is not going to be an issue for this amplifier.  It does not require an "easy to drive impedance" so it will drive most speakers just fine to a modest listening volume.  










Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by acousticsguru on 06/12/22 at 20:46:32

Speaking of soft start, that is what GZ34 Metal Base is: historically the ultimate version of 5AR4 ever built (in Heerlen in the Netherlands for a four-year period between 1953-57). One might say it's irrelevant as these are rare and expensive NOS, just saying, anyone interested in hearing what an amplifier circuit or tube is capable of given the cleanest and most stable power (as Allen Wright used to say it's all about stability) may want to consider the option. Given an average longevity of 10-30k hours (allegedly put to 100k), the expense doesn't seem unreasonable.

Greetings from Switzerland, David.

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Geno on 06/12/22 at 21:49:28

Hi David.

Sounds good. I’ll take you up on your offer to try one. Can I PM you with my shipping address?

Thank you!

Geno

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by BicycleJoe on 06/12/22 at 22:58:22

Rectifier = Dynamo


Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by johnnycopy on 06/12/22 at 23:49:26

I know the look of those receipts.

That’s from Andy at Vintage Tube Services.

Great tube stock if you are a patient customer.

Bought a lot of tubes from him including the circled one

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by BicycleJoe on 06/13/22 at 00:06:01

Yes Johnny those were for one of my boutique guitar amps. The Mullard rectifier really opened up the Top Hat Supreme 16 Top Boost with a EF 84 channel.

I just sent you a PM

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by johnnycopy on 06/13/22 at 00:59:24

BicycleJoe, I have sent you a PM back

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Steve Deckert on 06/20/22 at 05:08:30


This Friday I gave a demo of the ZF15M's connected to the Zen Mystery Amp.  We streamed off the HOLO and played 45 RMP records.  It was fun, and sounded bodacious and bigger than life.  It was almost epic in the grand scheme of things.

So this weekend I decided it would be fun to put the 300B amp in place of the ZMA and see what happened!  I played an album and the bass was extra heavy.  After not very long I had to admit it was like a giant sponge.  Not very impressive.  How can it not sound tight on these speakers, the tightest ones in the whole damn room?  How did it sound tight before?  You know the mental meltdown.

Honestly with the weekend I've had with father Murphy and things breaking for no reason... anything is actually possible so why should this be an exception?  

After about 20 minutes of trying to find something I liked about this combination that sounded so good on the the ZMA, I got the feeling that I needed to change the driver tubes. As you may remember on the other end of the room I had most recently been using 6N5P that on those speakers I rather liked. This may have been bad luck with the particular tubes I grabbed, but since bass was the problem I knew we needed more control so back to the 6N6P.

Problem solved.  After a 20 minute warmup, problem really solved.  Amp and speakers are gone, and I am just hearing the music again.

That was a disarming experience.

Right now I'm pretty sure 6N6P should be the tube ; ). Pink Panther is sounding and feeling completely real. Nice.  

Had that amplifier sounded like it did tonight in a customers home, it would have come back. This is why I am rotating between 15 pairs of speakers. As I said, living with it and discovering it's likes and dislikes etc.

So I think with the voicing for the WE300B tubes, the driver tubes are going to be the key. Finding the ones that sound good with the widest range  of speakers and source components.  

One big change from last week is that I went from a stock Cambridge CXNv2's RCA jacks directly into the amp, so 2 volts was the most it was ever going to see. On this end of the room we can take it as high as 10v with the various sources available. This allows me to play with different gain structures in front of the gain structure I have already preset in the amplifier itself. The only other amplifier with an extra gain stage like this one is the Mini Torii.  

So basically I am trying to hear it on CD, Streaming through the CXNv2, Streaming through the HOLO, Reel to Reel Tape on two different machines, and my Vinyl Rig both with and without preamps, gain stages and so on. All of these combinations are against all the speakers is my personal goal to release the amp. Has to sound good in all those scenarios.

Also I now realize some of the magic of this tubes extra liquid sound which makes me understand why when I was 10 years old picking up a phone that was the size and weight of a small barbell that you could hammer a nail into the wall with, the person on the other end was so smooth and clear thanks to the 300B tubes.  Nothing like today.

So in summary, a bit of a scare... I managed to hear the amp sound like a complete failure for the first time without doing anything to it.  Just found a speaker and room setting and gain structure that the 6N5P couldn't negotiate well.  6N6P is just handling it.  It's glorious.  No more boom,  and it's deep, clean and clear with great depth and decay.

Still, I have never had this extreme of a difference between combinations before with any of our other amplifiers, so this has been enlightening. lt just shows how easy it is to drift into a non ideal tube when rolling for a given pair of speakers and upstream components.  It was the non-ideal aspect that made you like the sound with a given group of speakers, but then the big honest efficient speakers call it out.

Whenever I hook this amp up on any of the above potential combinations I want it to make me feel like I don't want to turn it off.  So good I don't care about the other amps or what might be better. So good I just want to keep listening to it day after day after day after week after month and so on.  That's another one of my real world tests.

Hmmm.

The soggy bass I blamed on the ACME 274B....  hang on.

Not as snappy as the 5AR4 with the lower voltage drop resulting in the higher tube bias, but certainly not soggy, or even soft, just ultra smooth.  The soundstage as before gets lucid and bigger and everything in the midrange and spacial textures evolves to a new level.  So clearly the 6N6P on this end of the room is making the 274B sound pretty romantic.









Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Steve Deckert on 06/20/22 at 05:17:17


Yes, the sound is making me continually walk in there.  It is so damn good right now....  If you had let me hear this 20 years ago and told me it was digital I would have laughed in your face.  The dimensionality... it's reminds me of computer monitors when they went from 256 colors to millions so the shadings are nearly infinite.  It helps you hear around the images hanging there in space.  You can tell they are 3D because you can hear around them, they have presence in space.

Besides the insane imaging this is probably going to go down as the most musical amplifier Decware ever made.  I'm still not sure if I like it better than our other amps which tend to me more gone.  But then I feel like I am hearing more information from this amp, so perhaps it is the one that is more gone.  The fact that I can't figure this out is somewhat telling.

Happy listening!


Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Brian on 06/21/22 at 04:24:36

"I now realize some of the magic of this tube's extra liquid sound which makes me understand why when I was 10 years old picking up a phone that was the size and weight of a small barbell that you could hammer a nail into the wall with, the person on the other end was so smooth and clear thanks to the 300B tubes.  Nothing like today."

I absolutely remember when I first heard the change from a real phone system to what we have today. Even as a child I was disgusted.

That is great news about how the voice can be changed so much by swapping the drive tube to adapt to different speakers. "the most musical amplifier Decware ever made".  Good days.

Brian

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by BicycleJoe on 06/21/22 at 22:17:20

I may have mentioned further up the thread that I did the math on the comparable 300 B tubes available and their prices.

The Western Electric 300 B comes with a five year guarantee, at most all the other tubes come with a 90 day guarantee if any.

So if your average listening is conservatively three hours a day for 5 years 1825 days 1825*1500 = $1.22 per day or 41 cents an hour. But feel free to keep it powered on 24 hours a day since you have a guarantee.

Even though the initial investment has some sticker shock it turns out to be the most reasonably priced bargain in the 300 B class.

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by BicycleJoe on 06/24/22 at 05:49:48

I was looking at an early 1961's Western Electric 300B
one pair is $1500 and one pair is $10,000




Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Tony on 06/24/22 at 08:45:50


So Bicycle J., which pair of 300B's did you buy? :)

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by BicycleJoe on 06/24/22 at 09:00:31

My order was for an RCA 5U4G 1940
I was also inquiring for Metal Jacket JAN 6L6, 6SJ7 Matched Pairs and a

I need Clean Tested & Matched Metal Jacket Tubes circa WWII

If I needed 300B's I would definitely go for the current Western Electric offering. with a 5 year guarantee they seem to me the most economical.

Steve should make the investment on the 1961 pair and write it off as a business R&D expense. :D though the warrantee is only 90 days


Quote:
All of our tubes are guaranteed to perform as described. We fully test each and every tube to ensure this reliability. The warranty for NOS (New) tubes is 90 days from date of purchase


The usual suspects I got a good stash



Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Joey on 06/24/22 at 12:30:11

I got the new WEs (two) about 5 weeks ago. So far I've put around 50 hours per week. Yes they sound great but they take a long time to open up.

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Steve Deckert on 06/30/22 at 03:57:51



Quote:
I was looking at an early 1961's Western Electric 300B
one pair is $1500 and one pair is $10,000


As I understand it, the new ones are better because they use 'graphine' coating which was not possible back then.

But, then what is better?  Probably test more consistently, last longer, but it would be anyone's guess how we would compare the sound of two equally burned-in tubes.

Steve




Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by BicycleJoe on 07/01/22 at 22:55:15

Looking at the real McCoy Western Electric 300B structure and the WE300B reissue they are very similar while other exotic 300B tubes from other sources have a decidedly different appearance  I can't wait to be in the room with your new amplifier. I went to an audio exhibit  showing in a gallery museum today they used 300 B Amps.








Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Steve Deckert on 07/02/22 at 02:51:22




Apparently the new ones are really fast ; )




Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Steve Deckert on 07/02/22 at 03:36:06


UPDATE JUL 1

Well I've been listening to the amp on both ends of the room.  I used Corner Horns, HDT Silver 8's, ZF15L, ZF15M, the House Speakers, Tube Tots, the soon to be released T6, the DNA with Diatone 610. I still have more to go but I spend a good amount of time with each. My main curiosity during this phase of testing is my preference for the voicing switch setting and how or if it will change.

Initially when everything was new I had a overwhelming preference for one setting because it layered back so much better and then weeks later it changed to other and has so far stayed there despite making a second round with this group of speakers. So it wasn't so much the speakers as I thought, but perhaps the tube breaking in, and the amplifier itself. Now when I A/B the two voices I like them both, not a strong preference for one over the other like when it started.  So between this switch, the output impedance switches and playing with input and driver tubes and the rectifier I have been able to make this amp sound all the ways I want.

There is a sense of ease about this amplifier knowing the output tubes last so long.  Makes me not care about running it 16 hours a day.  In fact if you don't you're going to wait a long time to hear what the WE300B tube actually sounds like.

I will say overall my highly triggered ear for edges, grain, pinching, shout, have been on vacation with this amp because it just doesn't seem to ever do it with decent recordings which is pretty much all I listen to.  Still puzzled as to how it creates this illusion, or does everything else tend to take it too far?  Which way is actually more real?  That's the other part of this testing besides the switch that hope to answer before it's all over.  

This amp would be the holy grail on compression drivers.   On my House Speakers with those amazing tweeters I get captivated by the pin point precision... the highs just sparkle like fireflies in the rain on a warm summer evening and not like sparks off a grinding wheel.

Steve

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Steve Deckert on 07/02/22 at 04:03:30


Tonight the rotation has landed back on the DNA with the Diatone 610 which are 12 feet apart (see pics earlier in this thread) and the imaging and density is just hard to believe.  It sounds like the House Speakers are playing only an even larger soundstage.  Such an enjoyable combination.

If this combo can get me off in a 17 x 27 room setting 9 feet away it should be great in most rooms.  It's high on my favorites list.  If you have a smaller space this one would rapidly rise to the top of that list.  The speakers are so good in my room that I would be able to retire with them as my only speaker without experiencing any withdrawal which is saying a lot.  The more I listen to this driver in this cabinet the more I am realizing how good it is.  Boy it gets voices so right, and sax and drums, space and scale you would only expect from a large speaker.

Compared to the first two versions of this DNA design this latest one - the DNA610 - is easily twice as good as its predecessors.  It's got a really magic sound, and that's always exciting when it happens in a smallish package like this that you can easily move around.  

The demo for these would be to place them 20 inches away from the side walls toed into the listening chair in a large room like this so that there is 12 or more feet of empty space between the speakers.  Put a pair of nice plants on top of the speakers.   Have them 6 feet from the front wall so that the listening chair is expecting speakers to be placed in the large empty space in the room behind the plants.   That's basically what I have going on here and it's pretty impressive.  These speakers on a SAX with this amplifier are the best I have ever heard a SAX.  It just nails it.

Sorry I go on about the speaker but that is because it is expressing the amplifier in an unexpected way.  The speakers will sell for less than the amplifier and be small, so the appeal in this combination is going to be strong.  It's so good I makes me consider a package.  I didn't just say that, I just thought it, and that is just to demonstrate how damn good this combination sounds.

Have a great weekend!

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Lon on 07/02/22 at 13:49:11

So great to hear about the amp as it seasons. I'm eager to read how it may sound with HR-1 speakers.

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Same Old DD on 07/02/22 at 15:15:38

Now, why would that be, Lon?
;)

I have been looking at ways to get a ZTPre with all the fixin's once a couple of things are done, but this could be next. All my triggers are set, except for the big one $$.

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Yakatak on 07/04/22 at 18:24:16

Anyone willing to hazard a guess, as to when the first Sarah will hit the bench?

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Beni on 07/04/22 at 19:51:03

It will be mine in about 6 month.
:-)

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by CAJames on 07/04/22 at 20:56:59


Quote:
Posted by: Beni      Posted on: Today at 19:51:03

It will be mine in about 6 month. Smiley


Awesome! Do you plan on using it with the Sashas (Sashi)?

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Beni on 07/04/22 at 22:51:51

I planned it this way. I hope that the sashas get along with the Sarah. For the other case I have some  other speakers (eg Tube Tots, SA Pandion).

Besides, I will get enough headroom with the Torii V in case of doubt.

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by CAJames on 07/05/22 at 00:40:48

You could always get two

I hope works out for you, it sounds like it could be great.

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Steve Deckert on 07/06/22 at 01:48:41


UPDATE JUL 5 2022

For those following this thread and wondering if the amp can sound worth a crap with something other than the WE300B output tubes, and as we already knew the Russian gold Lion at $400 a pair sounded good.

Today I got in a pair of the least expensive tubes on my list, a pair of Chinese 300B that cost $120 a pair. My research suggested some of these inexpensive Chinese brands actually sound better than the fancy looking Chinese brands that are more commonly known.

I was most impressed with the build quality. Maybe I just got lucky, but this pair is better build quality than the Gold Lion. The glass is thicker and it makes less noise when tapped. So I put them in the amp this afternoon and then let them cook all day without any sound.

I am listening to them now and they sound great. I can tell right away that I'm going to like them. We'll let them play for a week and see what happens.  Truly it is one of the most impressive things I've seen come out of China for $55.  I would say it's a sleeper.





Since our plan is to sell this amplifier without the 300B tubes, these particular tubes would be a great way for someone on a tighter budget to initially save $1400.00 on the cost of the amp.






-Steve : )




Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by kulafu on 07/06/22 at 11:42:53

Steve, when would you be able to check out the Cryotone 300bs?

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by mperdue63 on 07/06/22 at 14:04:37

Do we have an ETA on Sarah yet?

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by CAJames on 07/06/22 at 14:54:21

My problem with inexpensive current production tubes, Chinese or otherwise isn't the sound it's the reliability. JMO.

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Same Old DD on 07/06/22 at 15:20:26

Incredible news, Steve!
Especially for those of us who drive Chevys instead of Jaguars or Cadillacs. $120/pair is about the same as most tubes in use. Keeps me in the batting cage.

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Same Old DD on 07/06/22 at 19:03:16

CAJ, is there an answer to the dependabiltiy question with commonly available pieces?

I often buy odd numbers and choose the best of five for instance. That gives me an emergency spare, maybe.

... or do you just not seek bargains?

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by lazb on 07/06/22 at 22:34:34

Have I missed it before? What are those speaker cables Steve has on the Sarah? Do not think I have seen them before! Sleepers?!?!?

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Dr3wman on 07/06/22 at 23:02:33

Lazb -

I believe those may be speaker cables that Steve is developing, he will be updating us once he has meaningful information.

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by CAJames on 07/07/22 at 00:53:28


Quote:
Posted by: Same Old DD      Posted on: Yesterday at 19:03:16
CAJ, is there an answer to the dependabiltiy question with commonly available pieces?

I often buy odd numbers and choose the best of five for instance. That gives me an emergency spare, maybe.

... or do you just not seek bargains?


I often do the same thing with NOS tubes. I mean you pretty much pays your money and takes your chances right? You can certainly get lucky with cheap tubes and unlucky with "heritage" tubes. And you might be better off with several cheap tubes vs a single expensive one for the same money. The only tube that has failed in my UFOs in almost 2 years is a high dollar NOS Mullard GZ34 that should have lasted my lifetime.

For me, I pretty much gave up on current production a long time ago and I look for bargains in NOS and esp. lightly used tubes from back in the golden age of tube tech. For one thing I have a tube tester so I can check that I'm getting what I paid for, but also the bargain hunting (and uncovering unusual compatible tubes) is a part of the fun. But that isn't for everyone.

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Tony on 07/07/22 at 15:13:39


Hi CA, you referenced your tube tester, and it got me thinking about them as this year has been my year of building up an inventory of tubes.  I looked online, and the list of testers seemed endless.  Do you have any recommendations?  I would need one that complemented the usual Decware tubes (sizes) of interest.  At the same time, I wonder if I need one.

Perhaps other forum members can chime in with the benefits of owning one or not.

Thanks, Tony

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by CAJames on 07/07/22 at 16:23:06

Re: tube testers. That's an excellent question.

I got mine a long time ago, and like pretty much everything tube related prices have gone up considerably since then. It's certainly nice to have but if I were just getting into tubes now I don't know that spending the money on a tube tester is worthwhile vs. just buying (more expensive) tubes from more reliable sellers.

I have a Hickok TV-7D/U which I would classify as "pretty nice." Most any tube tester will test Decware tubes with the following caveat, there isn't a lot of info for testing Russian tubes (6P15P, 6N1P). When I test them I use US near equivalents e.g. 6BQ5 and 6DJ8. I can't speak to all other models but certainly that is the case for most US tube testers from the 50s/60s/70s.

Here are a couple more things to think about. Even if you get a tube tester it is (nearly) worthless unless it is calibrated so be sure you have a plan to get that done unless you buy a calibrated one, and even then it will need calibration every several years or so. The other thing, and this is maybe getting more into metaphysics than engineering, is that most tube testers, and certainly the ones you are likely to buy, are designed to test if a tube is bad, not so much if it is good. Which means the engineers at Hickok, HP et. al. needed to pick one operating point from the whole phase space of possible currents and voltages to test at to determine if the tube needs to be replaced. That is a nearly impossible problem and by and large they have done a remarkable job solving it, but even best case tube tester results need to taken with a bit of YMMV/FWIW. Certainly it is useful to know that a tube tests bad (like if you paid for NOS) or that it has shorts but I think the tendency is to read too much into a test result, esp. regarding "matched" tubes. There are fancy tube testers, I think Steve has one, that allow you to set any operating point and compare it to the data sheet values. That will tell you how good a tube is, and if two tubes are truly matched, but normal people like me (and probably you) aren't going to pay the kind of money those cost.

Hope that helps.


Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Steve Deckert on 07/07/22 at 20:20:41


The fact that this $55 tube sounds as good as it does in this amplifier has lifted my spirits a bit.  It tells me the magic is largely the amplifier because I'm getting a $55 tube to sound as good as a $700 tube.  It also obviously makes the amp more affordable so more people will enjoy it.

If you purchased 10 of these tubes at $550 and replaced them every year if needed, you would still be ahead.  I seriously doubt the tube is going to diminish to the point of replacement in a year.  More likely just fail for no reason abruptly.  Seems to be the Chinese way.  

The problem with Chinese consumer grade manufacturing is that consistency is a casualty of the manufacturing process where you have a government that makes you move your factory because they've decided to close an entire region over covid outbreaks.  And that is just one recent example of perhaps hundreds I could list that create this problem.  

With the Western Electric tube, it is the opposite.  So consistent it's almost crazy by comparison.  This is why there is a 5 year warranty.  I expect it will last far beyond that even for retired all day listeners.

This gives some nice options.  If you can afford it, and want to take the output tube variable completely out of the equation, buy US made WE.  If not,  a pair of these tubes if they're anything like mine, will be fine.  Just be aware that when you order some it might be like the game of Plinko.



The center slot is the tube that lasts way longer than normal and sounds great doing it.  The two o slots on either side are tubes that fail in the first hour or week.  The remaining slots are the different grades of satisfaction you will get.

Best analogy I've ever given.

Steve





Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Showme on 07/07/22 at 22:55:32

Sadly for me at my age and the Decware wait list I’m not worried about how long the tube will last, it is not a concern. More concerned with getting the amp while I can still enjoy it.

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Tooppy on 07/07/22 at 23:12:40


Quote:
Sadly for me at my age and the Decware wait list I’m not worried about how long the tube will last, it is not a concern. More concerned with getting the amp while I can still enjoy it.


You wrote that on my behalf, did you ! I am also on that boat  [smiley=10.gif]

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Joey on 07/08/22 at 01:10:32

Not trying to be a spoiler here but if you can't hear the difference between a 55 and 700 $ tube in this amp then I must ask why? Transparency must be the question I'm pondering.

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by armstdav on 07/08/22 at 03:54:01

Tony,

I've owned tube amps and preamps, including Decware, for over 20 years now. My audio experience changed dramatically in 2008 when I acquired a Hickok 600 and I was able to test tubes for myself.

CAJames is correct that calibration is the key; mine was freshly calibrated when I bought it and I got it recalibrated a couple years ago. While absolute readings on any particular tester will vary, once you get a feel for your tester you can definitely know whether tubes you're using or tubes you buy are up to snuff. I've been able to procure some amazing bargains on untested tubes which ended up testing NOS. I've also bought "tested NOS" tubes that on my Hickok turned out to be crap, and the seller wouldn't make good, but my good experiences have way outwayed my bad ones.

Bottom line, if you want to dabble in NOS tubes a tester is invaluable. If you're happy with new production tubes from reputable sellers, just keep a new set of tubes on hand to swap out periodically with your current tubes. Your ears will tell you whether your current tubes have worn out.

David

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Tony on 07/08/22 at 08:22:41


David,

Thanks for your thoughtful and thought provoking response. It certainly provided a fuller perspective to consider.


Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Steve Deckert on 07/08/22 at 20:18:27



Quote:
Not trying to be a spoiler here but if you can't hear the difference between a 55 and 700 $ tube in this amp then I must ask why? Transparency must be the question I'm pondering.


I didn't say I couldn't hear a difference, I said the 55 sounds just as good.  Good enough that to get into the meat of the differences I would have to A/B the tubes, which I will in time.  

The answer to your question is likely because this 55 sounds similarly good to the 700.  Transparency of the amp will be quickly decided once people start taking delivery of it so I'll let that issue work itself out in the wash.

I think we can all agree that 700 is overpriced, but with the 5 year warranty and for all the other reasons listed, I think that price is acceptable.

Also, the $55 tube has been researched and is claimed to be better sounding than many of the ultra high dollar Asian 300B tubes on the market.  It's not a random $55 tube by any means.  And as mentioned above, I could order another pair today and when they arrive they might easily suck which was my Plinko illustration.




Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Rightslot on 07/10/22 at 04:24:06

Steve,

Nice talking to you the other day.  The conversation was about the 25th Anniversary amp  Now I feel a bit guilty.  Took time away from your work.
But it's now finished???  Lot's of thoughts a opinions on this site.
Regardless of ALL of THIS,  I am so excited for this new 300B amp.  You first said mid-summer.  

Can't Wait.  Will check the website each and every day until it's posted.  And... Going slightly against your normal process and procedures, it would sure be nice to have a couple/or 3 or 4 at the ready, so those of us waiting get purchase right away!!

Can't Wait.  More tension than Christmas at 9yrs old!!

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Steve Deckert on 07/10/22 at 05:14:49


The goal is to build the first production model #001 and compare it against this prototype in the next two months.  If everything goes to plan the production model can debut at DECFEST in October 2022.




Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Rightslot on 07/11/22 at 02:11:29

Hi Steve & wonderful crew,

I'm just wondering---this is kind of a broad question. How much of the 300B sound do you believe is already in the SE84UFO?  

How much of what people would consider lush, warm, inviting, make-you-wanna-listen-all-night-kind of sound? J

Just wondering how much of that is already in the primary number one amplifier sold by Decware??

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by CAJames on 07/11/22 at 04:10:29


Quote:
Posted by: Rightslot      Posted on: Today at 02:11:29
Hi Steve & wonderful crew,

I'm just wondering---this is kind of a broad question. How much of the 300B sound do you believe is already in the SE84UFO?  

How much of what people would consider lush, warm, inviting, make-you-wanna-listen-all-night-kind of sound? J


So my UFOs are overflowing with inviting, make-you-wanna-listen-all-night-kind-of-sound, but not because they are lush and warm. They are detailed and transparent and fast with just the right pinch of liquid tube magic. That is pretty much the "Decware Sound" and it seems like that is what the Sarah is going to have as well, but the liquid tube magic is going to be 300B flavored.

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by BicycleJoe on 07/11/22 at 05:06:48

From everything I am reading the Sarah has Rachel DNA.

Steve wrote So to start, I wanted to replicate the SE34I.5/6 amps, which just sonically kicks ass.  I have the tubes in it biased around 42 mA although it goes up and down depending on what tubes you use.  Nevertheless, it's a clean layout that should be able to be duplicated.  : ).  See, this is how you get the Audio Gods attention... it's like when you cat does something cute and you can't resist going over there and messing with it.

Here is that amplifier - my latest masterpiece just prior to starting the 300B amp.

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Steve Deckert on 07/12/22 at 03:50:53


UPDATE JUL 11 2022

The algorithm test...

I have found an extremely reliable way to evaluate the fidelity of an amplifier that takes conscious thinking out of it, ego, expectations, and all the things that can skew results.

I have a track list that I duplicate. It's is quite large, perhaps 5K tracks. During the day and evenings while I work I set the playback to random. The tracks are made up largely of albums. Albums that I haven't heard many or most of the cuts on. So as I random play the goal is to either 1) mark the track as a favorite 2) mark the track not to play ever again 3) leave the track unmarked.

The only thing that is really important is #2)  mark the tracks to never play again. What constitutes this choice is something I don't like about the sound... usually midrange related, that would give me pause if I were to use this track as a demo. I am trying to create a track list of demo material ranging from good to great.

Simply start with a fresh copy of the list when ever you are evaluating amps or tubes or cables, etc., and listen for a week or two. How many times did you mark a track not to hear ever again?  When is it happening...

See this is where it gets interesting. I have been listening to the WE300B now for quite a while.  One of the things I was amazed with right away is the need to mark songs not to hear again diminished. In fact almost never did it happen, at least not for sound quality reasons.

I put in the $55 China tube and you read the results. It had a more present midrange and just an overall really nice tone about it. It was definitely a different sound and I was unsure which I liked better. And since it is just burning in, I am not doing much sweet spot listening because I don't like my soundstage to change while I listen, it wrecks my brain. Instead I just listen casually throughout the space and focus on everything else.

Yesterday I noticed that I was starting to mark quite a few tracks never to hear again because the midrange was getting pinched or graining out or getting almost sharp, sounding exactly like a bad recording.  

So it is changing for sure. Sadly it is heading in the wrong direction, so now I don't know if it is going to come back around with continued use or not.

I am giving the pair a rest and listening to the Cryotone 300B-WC that arrived today!!! They have been playing now for about 10 minutes after warming with no music for an hour. First takeaway is "a fleshy tangibility that seems to push things a notch higher on the real meter."

Remember, at this time I am not interested in A/B evaluations of the different 300B tubes. I am just taking a journey with the amp like a customer would. It's like a float trip down a spring fed river with lots of spontaneity and discovery.  So far the canoe hasn't tipped and it's been a positive experience.

As I write this and listen to Fin Greenall's voice on this new tube, I am also listening to it on the China tube by memory at the same time and doing some A?B comparisons in my mind.  Damn, I'm busted.  Anyway, playing now is a track that is flawless and the other tube is adding grain to the midrange and somewhat pinching it as well as pushing it a bit forward.  So it will be interesting to see where it lands when we put more hours on it.

Now listening to this:



And it is stunning.  I can almost smell the wood.  I haven't heard this particular track on the WE300B, but this is a float trip, the current is strong and you don't go upstream to see how many ways you can miss the rock because you'll never make it to the end.








Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Puggy on 07/13/22 at 19:30:26

I haven’t seen this mentioned on the thread yet, so I thought I would recommend an excellent “moderately” priced pair of 300B tubes.

For the last few months I’ve been using the Cossor/Linlai WE300B replica (~$550/pair) in my Elekit TU 8600s. Previously I was using the Gold Lions.

From what I’ve been told, this Cossor is identical to the Linlai WE300B replica (and is made by Linlai), which is also identical to the Psvanne WE300B replica. I haven’t compared these, so I can’t verify. However the Cossors are fantastic. In comparison to the Gold Lion, the Cossor has better transparency, timbre, dynamics, separation, bass quality and quantity, etc. for only $200 more than the Gold Lion.

Don’t get me wrong, $550 for a pair of tubes is still expensive. But in the world of 300B tubes, it’s not unreasonable if want to experience the 300B glory, especially when you’re getting into tube quality that can be compared against NOS WE300B. Would be very interested to see how these sound in the Decware.

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Steve Deckert on 07/16/22 at 06:35:31


Thanks for the recommendation, they are actually on my list.

UPDATE JUL 16 2022

As part of todays listening test we go back to prior references.  Tonight the Zen TORII Mono's with KT88's biased at 65-70mA.  The sound is overall tighter. More neutral, perhaps ever so slightly faster.  It's definitely a different sound.  The Sarah WE300B amp has more depth, bass texture, midrange texture, kinder  top end. Imaging is equally good but different. Probably a contest determined by speaker room synergy.  

Anyway, it's like back to my old reference on the House Speakers... and I feel like something is missing in the mid band and low end density area which is hard to believe considering one is 4 watts and one is 60 and the 4 watt is winning at normal listening volumes which is the only thing that actually counts.

This is the first time I have experienced the craving to "put it back" which is hard to believe because you wouldn't believe how good the Zen TORII Mono reference really is.

Also worthy of note is that the ZTPRE is driving the monos fully balanced. !!!

So yea the Sarah 300B sounds just like this picture of Sarah. It has more fun with music than normal. A fitting parallel if you knew Sarah. Many of you have caught her energy on the phone and this is such a fitting tribute to her as she is such a HUGE part of what makes Decware, DECWARE...  Not to mention her mastery over her two brothers , Jake and Josh who both work here and are irreplaceable. She kicked their asses when they were kids and it's no different in the shop, she always wins but at the same time is completely powerless because they just don't care.



I really have no more fears about how this amplifier might compare with the hundreds of other 300B amps on the market. I have explored the range of sounds the tube is capable of and chosen the best recipe to my own ears which have so far never let me down.

I'm pretty excited to manufacture this amplifier.  It has a similar special spot in my heart just like the original Zen Triode amp. It is just so cool that her mother came into my life right after I launched the original Zen Triode amplifier.  Between DeVon's amazing support and her amazing skill sets and ability to pass that along to Sarah I have been more than blessed with the final result and so have all of you. They and their brothers are the real reason Decware as you know it is able to happen. I'm not talking about talking on the phone... both of these women can build Zen Amplifiers better than all of us. Those magical tiny hands and attention to detail. Everyone here is cross trained in almost everything.

And yes, that girl as well as her mother, my wife, can build a Zen amp better than you, even better than myself. Sarah is so neurotic that she is the only one that can build a perfect ZEN HEAD battery operated headphone amp.  

Happy Listening... see you when I get back unless I kill myself trying to waterski on vacation next week. If that happens just know I love you all and Sarah and DeVon can well handle it.





See you when we get back!

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Brian on 07/17/22 at 03:25:24

Happy vacationing!

Brian

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Kamran on 07/17/22 at 04:02:08

Thanks for the continued update Steve.  This is turning out to be a great thread following your journey developing the Sarah and I didn’t realize the family connection until your last post!

Have a great vacation!

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by BicycleJoe on 07/17/22 at 12:04:41

https://youtu.be/U7C0bWaA7Sw

HD 1080 MONO

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Lon on 07/24/22 at 13:46:56

What. .. no Saturday night update! :) Steve really IS on vacation.

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by JBzen on 07/24/22 at 15:19:37

He might be enjoying it so much to opt for an extension [smiley=peanuts01.gif]

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Lon on 07/24/22 at 16:35:45

I look forward to all the updates. I'm resigned to a long wait, but these will help me, intriguing me each time.

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Steve Deckert on 07/26/22 at 04:14:16


UPDATE JUL 25 2022

After a nice vacation with the family and grandkids in the fresh air of Minnesota with no listening to music of any kind I came in Today craving a listen to this amplifier but I had to work all day.  And now sadly I'm still tired so I'm calling it an early night.  But with fresh ears and mind I did manage to  fire up the amp with the WE300B tubes and played some of my favorite tracks.  In less than 4 minutes I was able to clearly realize I'm in trouble.  I may well have just done to myself what I did to myself with the SE84UFO25.

My personal SE84UFO25 is not here for direct comparison (on purpose) so I can only speculate how the two amps will compare in a shoot out, but in the end it's probably just going to mean that everyone will simply have to own both.

The balance this amp has is nothing short of stunning.  The imaging, textures, body and transparency are second only to it's resolution.  

Don't worry it will be worth the wait.

Steve : )


Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by HockessinKid on 07/26/22 at 15:08:48

I think those of you who attend Decfest this year are in for a special treat with the 300B Sarah amp taking center stage. Will orders for this special amp increase after the event? I think so.

I hope Western Electric is ramping up production on the tubes to meet demand as well 😁.

HK



Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by JBzen on 07/26/22 at 15:10:41


Quote:
My personal SE84UFO25 is not here for direct comparison (on purpose) so I can only speculate how the two amps will compare in a shoot out, but in the end it's probably just going to mean that everyone will simply have to own both.


What the heck does that mean?

Good to see the time off did you good.

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Lon on 07/26/22 at 15:26:36

I think I get it. They're both the top step of a particular stairway to heaven. I'm on the 25th Anniversary UFO stairway right now and they can take me to heaven. All that is missing is a touch of lush magic that I remember hearing in a 300B amp, I could definitely imagine being on that stairway and thinking all that is missing is that razor like insight that the 25th UFO has at its heart. I know I will love the 300B when it's settled into my listening life, and yet I know that these Monoblocks will also still have my heart for that unique propulsion system they have.

Of course not everyone is going to have to have both. That's just Steve's way of saying he has two chart-toppers on his hands I believe.  

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Brian on 07/27/22 at 06:05:59

Welcome home, Steve!

Brian

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by abd1 on 07/27/22 at 18:23:50

Such a great thread to read an amp designer developing a new amp. Thank you for sharing.

If I wanted to order a Sarah300b could I get on the waitlist now by ordering a different amp and then changing the order once the new amp is available to order?

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by BicycleJoe on 07/27/22 at 18:31:25

ABD I believe some folks have already placed advance orders, best way to find out is to call Sarah in customer service herself.


Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Steve Deckert on 08/04/22 at 16:51:00


UPDATE AUG 4 2022

Wednesday, the first of our three day listening session, has come and gone already.  Randy arrived in the early afternoon and we just decompressed and chatted for a couple hours until around 4:00 PM when we decided to start our listening adventure.  Prior to his arrival, I had a listening appointment where I demo'd my personal SE84UFO25 on the ZF15M, the corner horns and then finally the new HDTSilver8 speakers.

This is the first time I have heard the amplifier since it came back from Don and Roger at Cryotone.  I loaned it to them so they could fine tune their process around the tubes for that amplifier.  Additionally, the entire amplifier was Cryotreated.  During this short demo, I didn't actually really listen to it, I was more trying to demo what 2 watts can do to a first time visitor who had never heard tube gear and was having a hard time wrapping his head around the concept of 2 watts.  His fear was that there would be no bass.  Well, that was a fun demo!  Another Decware customer was created in less than 7 minutes.

Randy and I had a mission to listen to the new Sarah 300B amplifier, and he brought his own speakers and personal 300B amp and a selection of 300B tubes.  But since the HDTSilver8's were still hooked up and playing in the background, driven by my UFO25 and Holo Audio May DAC, we accidentally started to listening to that.  It was only the second time I have listened to the new HDT's since I put them together, and of course also the first time I had actually started to seriously listen to the UFO25.

I don't know about Randy, but I went in there with the thought that we'd listen to these for a few minutes and then haul the stuff in here from Randy's car and get started on our mission.  My guess is he had the same thought.  

Well, interestingly enough, we fell into the music and listened for 8 straight hours without a break until midnight where we shot the shit for another couple hours and went to bed.  Never even thought about listening to the new amp, or even different speakers.  Had no clue what time it was, and frankly it is the fastest 8 hours I think I've ever experienced.  I would have told you we were in there for 3 hours, but walking past the clock on the wall as we went to bed was a rude reminder as it said 2 AM.










So today, we're about to jump back into it a again, but since we've lost an entire day I'm already warming up the 300B to make sure it doesn't happen twice : )


Steve


Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Tooppy on 08/04/22 at 17:20:27

Steve, what do you mean by the whole amp being cryotreated ?

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by BicycleJoe Lo-Fi on 08/04/22 at 17:41:29

You should behave You’re too used to being on vacation get to work

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Same Old DD on 08/04/22 at 19:02:19

Yeah, Joe, there's that. Can't just hit the ground running after time off without over revving something.
:D


I am also very curious about the folded wing baffles you show in that pic with what look to be F15s mounted.

Is this a future plan? Are you selling the plans. Are those yours or Randy's creation?
I was already thinking in this direction, wondering if it was possible and I find you've already done it up proud.

Any info on those to share?

EDIT:
Sorry, it's an illusion and a bit of wishful thinking. I don't see folded baffles anymore.


Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Kamran on 08/04/22 at 20:43:54

Paid for Wi-Fi on a plane.  First site visited: Decware—yeah Priorities.

Read-up on the development thread.  Looking forward to Steve and Randy getting back on mission from Thursday.

Kamran

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Steve Deckert on 08/04/22 at 21:33:21

UPDATE 8-4-2022

We started around 11:00 A.M. today.  We set up Randy's personal baffles featuring the Lii Song Silver 10 driver, and just to tickle the bottom a little bit we used a Lii Song W15 driver driven by a decent sounding plate amp.





This will be our reference set up for the at least today.  This set up is equally mind numbing to what we had going on last night.

Since we have several 300B tubes to explore we are using Randy's amp.  It has no rectifier tube, and no preamp stage, so less tubes, less variables.  Also an amazing sounding amplifier so with that let's begin : )





Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Steve Deckert on 08/04/22 at 21:46:19



We started with the Takatsuki TA-300Bs what are known to be in the Top three best sounding 300B tubes made. Cost $1700 for the pair.




This tube set a high benchmark in transparency and resolution and speed.  I would say a very honest sounding tube that can sound like whatever the signal is driving it. It has a raw unedited quality dripping with resolution. The tone was neutral.  It was more than impressive with well recorded music. We listened to it for a couple hours.



Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Steve Deckert on 08/04/22 at 22:21:09



Next it was time to listen to the Cryotone 300B-WC. The sound of this tube was instantly different. It had less resolution and less speed. But it had more tone, more body, rounder edges. Almost immediately we switched to a stock pair of JJ-300B and then switched back so we could hear the effect of the Cryotone process. The Cryotone process on this tube adds meat on the bones. The tone in the upper midrange had more glow to it. Tube tube also had more depth to the sound and was a bit more refined. We listened to them for about an hour. We we both rather pleased with the sound. Less analytical, wonderful body and tone. A slightly bloomed midrange. Compared to the Japanese tube it was more relaxed, more forgiving and had more midrange density with a very satisfying amount of detail, not too much not too little. I personally these Cryotone will be liked by the most people, especially those with less than wonderful listening spaces. It has more of the "300B sound" that I think most would be wanting. This tube sells for just under $500 each, and we felt it was easily worth the money. We ended with a sax track that qualified as one of the best sounding sax playback I've ever heard. It was front and center, had body, perfect tone, and lots of density and weight that made it feel real. It was a head shaker.  













Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Steve Deckert on 08/04/22 at 22:46:28


The next test was the WE300B tubes.  This tube caught us both off guard coming off the Cryotone 300B-WC sound.  We played the same sax track that we just marveled over with the Cryotone and it sounded like a different track.  In fact I had to ask three times if it was the same track.  This is because the sax that was almost in my lap was now farther back with a touch less body, and there was a piano and drum kit equally presented with the sax that I frankly didn't even notice before.  Besides that the room of the recording was rendered perfectly. This is why I thought it was a different track, because this time there was a room, a piano and a drum kit that I hadn't noticed before.

After about an hour of head shaking on every track we agreed the tube was worth every penny of it's asking price.  I put it above the Japanese tube. Price on the WE300B is I think about $700 ea.  Exquisite is the only word that comes to mind.  Still the Cryotone I think would be chosen over it by many because most people don't have a listening room that would support the sound stage the WE created which is what caused the piano and drum kit to appear.  So in my house instead of the listening room, I would lean heavily towards the Cryotone.

Supplemental tube rolling in the driver stage or introduction of a preamp with the right tube selection could have pushed or pulled the sound of all of these tubes in any of the described directions.  This is why we used this particular amp with no preamp to try to hear just the output tubes themselves.

Sadly all of these tubes require a couple hundred hours of break in and none of them are there yet.  The WE300B has the most hours on it but it's still shy of 200 hrs.  That means that all these impressions can change substantially.

-Steve






Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by CAJames on 08/04/22 at 22:58:51

Interested where your “50 buck” tube slots in compared to all this high dollar talent.

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Steve Deckert on 08/05/22 at 02:04:48


The $50 tube... listening to it right now...



We both agreed that this tube is well good enough to show of the amplifier and we like it enough that we could easily live with it.  The inner layers are somewhat less compared to the exotic tubes, but unless you heard that you would never know.  We think this tube will make the difference for some buyers as it will keep the cost down without tanking the fidelity or performance.  By FAR the best buy we have encountered with the 300B tubes.

As for how it stacks up against the others, we both would easily choose this over the Gold Lion 300B at $400 pair.

Steve


Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Steve Deckert on 08/05/22 at 03:18:27


8:53 PM

It's getting real interesting now... after listening to the $50 tube which after an hour got so good we concluded that either it's a miracle or the rest of the tube industry is screwing us.

Anyway, that tube is a raging success, even if it cost 10X it would still be highly desirable.



Here is the TJ Full Music Mesh Plate 300B.  They go for around $400 a pair.  I really love this tube.  It's very different, hard to find words, but just extraordinary presence and timing.  Musical, tight, bloomed, focused...  Highly Recommended.  It actually sounds very similar to the Cryotone at just under half the price.  Some things about are better, some probably not as refined, but another home run in the value department.  Just pushed the Gold Lion down another notch to the very bottom of the pile.  







Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Steve Deckert on 08/05/22 at 05:43:47


10:37 PM

Before we started listening to the Sarah 300B amp today, I had Randy hear it on the 88dB House Speakers.  He was relatively stunned.

Then I showed him the 274B from PSVANE that I found created a lucid image and insane stage, but was spongey on the bass.  This is why I changed to the PSVANE 5AR4 because on those demanding speakers with the amp at full power to drive them, the 274B was too soft.

I also plugged it into the UFO25 and as I think I mentioned the OA3's were blinking at half volume.  These two experiences pretty much destined the tube to live in the box for the rest of it's life.  But, since we're exploring so many possibilities, I decided to show Randy what I meant about the tube getting spongey.  So we put it in and couldn't hear anything wrong with it.  It was fairly wonderful.  What changed is the load on the amp.  Now instead of 88dB we were at 98 dB and the amp doesn't even know it's on.  The bass is tight as a brick, well almost, until you put the 5AR4 in and then however tight it was gets tighter.

Anyway, it is a wonderful sounding rectifier under these current conditions in the Sarah 300B.



In combination with the glob perf plate 300B from TJ it was simply great.  Hard to pull out these tubes to try other ones, because the sound was so right...




Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Steve Deckert on 08/05/22 at 06:00:10


11:41 P.M.

Next was to put the Japanese 300B in my amp and see how we roll.  It's great.  So close to the WE300B it wouldn't be that hard to mistake one for the other.  

So this entire time I have been using what I predict will be the stock driver tubes in the amplifier, which are 6N6P.  The only thing I have tried in the past that is better is the Cryotone 6922. It was time to get these out and see what effect they have on the overall picture...

Another holy crap moment.  So much more solid, tight, tangible...  If it weren't for the price of these tubes they would be the default tube compliment that ships with the amp.

The combination was amazing.  So now we are back to the WE300B with the Cryotone 6922 and the PSVANE 5AR4.  This is insane.  This years DECFEST is going to blow some minds.  Between the Cryo treated UFO25, yes the whole amp was frozen, and this amp, people who have never heard either are not going to leave the same way they came.  If you don't want to be wrecked, don't come.

So we are on track for 12 straight hours of listening without a break.  Literally.  And as Randy continues to point out, not a single bad sound has occurred since we started this mission.  We have more tubes, but at this point I think both of our heads are well wrapped around what is possible and the approximate range of those possibilities.

I should see the production chassis in the next 8 weeks, at which point I will simply refine the layout and duplicate the sound.  Put it on the page, do the final pricing with the 11% inflation that has occurred since this project was started, and then we will build the web page for it and start selling it.

-Steve




Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Brian on 08/05/22 at 06:36:07

One of the most exciting reads in years!
After reading this report, I would like to hear the Cryotone process on the Takatsuki TA-300Bs. Perhaps it would make them a bit creamier without loosing the resolution.

Great stuff!  
Brian

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by JBzen on 08/05/22 at 11:39:05


Quote:
This years DECFEST is going to blow some minds.  Between the Cryo treated UFO25, yes the whole amp was frozen, and this amp, people who have never heard either are not going to leave the same way they came.  If you don't want to be wrecked, don't come.


My biggest fear :-/ What do they say "no guts no glory." I'll pack some Depends...ambiguity intended ;D

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Steve Deckert on 08/07/22 at 03:23:05


Takatsuki TA-300Bs got a lot more creamy when they had a 12AU7 driving them instead of a 12AT7 in Randy's amp. The rawness melted.  Randy and I both suspect that when that tube breaks-in it will be a true force to reckon with because it already is and with only about 80 hours on it as I understand it.

That said, based on what I hear in common with all Cryotone tubes is more meat on the bone.  Better density and focus at the same time.  I can't imagine any tube taking a step backwards with more of that.  

Sadly it takes a lot of a particular tube to Cryo treat it they way he does... test, listen, adjust temperature ramps, treat another, test, listen, compare, treat another, adjust the ramps, repeat over and over and over.  At $1700 and up for a pair it's just not possible. Same with WE300B. Don't expect to see that one treated either.

I can see why he likes the thicker glass of the JJ tube and as I said before the sound is what most people are looking for in a 300B amp. It was the juiciest midrange of them all, proud and dense, front and center.  The stock JJ by comparison sounded a little washed out.

Steve








Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Steve Deckert on 08/07/22 at 03:48:42


UPDATE 8-6-2022

My wonderful time with Randy has ended for now, and he is safe and sound back home.  Without his wonderful sounding amp in the room I have Sarah connected to the HDT Silver8 and it is some of the most relaxed ultra detailed sound... as if without the competition the amp can relax and really shine.

The first song I played is this one:



And the track on this combination is just killing me. My neck is getting the kinks worked out of it from shaking my head in amazement so often. This amp is really damn happy right now! I suspect the added 30 hours of burn is part of what I'm noticing. Anyway it's shit like this that has made me rub all the hair off the front of my head : )

And now I think for the first time I have a good perspective on it's sound. Experiencing it along side another great amplifier and rolling the same tubes through both amps on a single set of speakers for 3 days has been illuminating. I wanted this amplifier to be half way between a typical 300B sound and the UFO25. I wanted some of both. That's exactly where it landed and even after hearing all the combinations I don't want to change anything.

I have also noticed that tonights sound is rather similar to Wed Nights sound with the UFO25 and Cryotone tubes. The two amps are just different enough to be special and alike enough to be able to use either for long periods of time. They are both in that league where when you start listening to one you forget about the other.

I'm sure there will be some Decware bashing about the rated 4 watt output when so many 300B amplifiers have twice that rated power but then that gets back to why Decware made its reputation on a 2 watt amp that could have easily put out 6 watts if wired for max power instead of max sound.

Turned up to it's 4 watt mark, which is 3/4 volume with a 2 volt source, the 88dB house speakers sounded just as loud as anything else we listened to and were incredible sounding.  It's actually one of my favorite combinations.

This is one right now, and it just sounds real.



Have a great night!

Steve





Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Brian on 08/07/22 at 05:52:10

Thank you, Steve for what you said about Cryo treating the Takatsuki. That helps my understanding a lot.

This must indeed be a beautiful sounding amp.

Brian

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Tooppy on 08/07/22 at 09:12:02

The pleasure to listen to music is mainly driven by the recording quality, above all others considerations. There are some music I love but never listen to because the recording kills it. In return, I listen more often to some tracks I don't particularly find interesting but are well recorded.
STEVE never proposes lousy recordings and of course on a top notch amp/system, it should be fantastic.
My point is, first change your music librairy to see what your system is really capable of, then upgrade choosing your poison in Steve products.

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Tooppy on 08/07/22 at 09:13:44

Steve, what was this "sax track" you have been refering to ?
Thanks

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Lon on 08/07/22 at 11:04:32

Interesting Toopy, because for me the music itself is the pleasure and I listen to many not-so-great recordings and don't gather recordings just because "they sound great" if the music isn't to my liking.

The wonderful thing about Decware components for me is that they are tunable and flexible and can make so much sound quite enjoyable that are not as enjoyable in other components. And I think the Sarah amp will continue and even perhaps elevate that quality and those functions.

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Tooppy on 08/07/22 at 12:41:23


Quote:
Interesting Toopy, because for me the music itself is the pleasure and I listen to many not-so-great recordings and don't gather recordings just because "they sound great" if the music isn't to my liking


I agree, that was the case for me also, music first, but not anymore, I need something more probably.....and I don't gather recording just because they sound great either, I just mean I have a tendancy not to reject these recordings and even listen to them from time to time, which could never happen before.

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Lon on 08/07/22 at 12:57:15

Well I'm 67 and have been collecting and listening to music for over 50 years. .. half of that with Decware systems. . . I think my habits are not going to change.

I'm looking forward to the 300B after the long wait. . . I think it may have that missing link of "lushness" that my more "sober" system has perhaps been missing. (I don't drink. . . so maybe my system needs to have a few).

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by CAJames on 08/07/22 at 15:23:29


Quote:
Posted by: Tooppy      Posted on: Today at 09:12:02
The pleasure to listen to music is mainly driven by the recording quality, above all others considerations...


You are not alone. I know guys (and they are always guys) who have been buying Dark Side of the Moon and Kind of Blue over and over again for 30+ years. Each time a new "ultimate" remastering comes out they are first in line. And there is nothing wrong with that, those recordings do sound fantastic on a good system.

But I'm like Lon, I listen to a lot of different music, and some of my favorites are from the 40's and early 50's and even back into the 30's and 20's. The great thing about my system is it wrings every drop of musical goodness out of my old recordings and sounds fantastic when I put on Kind of Blue. Which I admit I have been doing more often since I found Decware, just because it sounds soooooooooo gooooooooood.

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by BicycleJoe Lo-Fi on 08/07/22 at 15:35:54

I've left Kind of Blue on repeat for days

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Randy in Caintuck on 08/07/22 at 17:40:44



Hello everyone,

I just wanted to add my 2 cents without getting too far into the weeds ...

My custom built 300B amplifier sounds about as similar to most of the "typical" 300B amps I have heard as "chalk and cheese".
It sounds more like a 2A3 amp on steroids .....

So, for the new Decware 300B amp to get my attention tells me that it is VERY, VERY good indeed.

The 100.00 Chinese 300B tubes were a total stunner in my opinion.
If the quality control and reliability are good, these tubes are a no brainer.

As you might guess, I am a dyed in the wool open baffle fan and almost every "box" speaker that I have heard disappoints me in the low frequency range.  However, the Decware HDTSilver8's and the "house speakers" were an amazing and pleasant surprise .....
It is a testament to Steve's ability and instincts as a loudspeaker designer to create a multi-driver box speaker (the house speakers) that has absolutely NO distracting colorations that I could detect.
Well done .....

I can pretty much guarantee that the attendees of Decware Fest 2022 will be in for a treat and have the envelope pushed as to what is possible in the world of high resolution, truly musical audio.

Happy listening,
Randy in Caintuck


Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by HockessinKid on 08/07/22 at 18:20:23

Randy,

Thanks for sharing your insights and listening observations. I'm glad you were able to sit in on extended listening sessions with some of Steve's latest offerings.

Since I have a Sarah amp on preorder, I'm hopeful Steve can source and stock up on a bunch of those $100 Chinese 300B tubes. That would be helpful in providing customers a modest cost tube compliment as a starter.

Most of the premium 300B tubes are very pricey. I'll likely need to delaying buying a pair for budgetary reasons.

Cheers and continued success with your Caintuck Audio baffle offerings.

HK

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Lon on 08/07/22 at 18:27:06

I'm so glad the Decware Demi-God got to be in the evaluating blend! Adds some real "street cred" to the listening thread. Thanks Randy!

One question though for Steve and/or you: that great fifty dollar tube. . . doesn't seem to be manufactured any longer. Is that true?

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Steve Deckert on 08/07/22 at 18:33:33


Here is a video of a track I listened to last night.  It is one we played repeatably during all the tests and always sounded great, but last evening / almost morning the system was having that middle of the night bloom I wrote about 20 years ago.  So I captured it on video, as I often do, to share with anyone who has headphones.



https://youtu.be/hvCZMc4HruY


A little bit about the recording...

I use a Galaxy S9 phone in a gimbal which adds a lot of mass.  I use DJI software to record the video using the gimbal.  I dump it on my Mac and add titles and so on.  The audio is never edited, or volume adjusted.  Basically never touched so it doesn't get screwed up.  

For listening to the recordings I use a Beyer Dynamics DT770 PRO 250 ohm headphone plugged directly into the headphone jack of the computer.  It gives me a worse case scenario sound wise vs. using a 8K headphone rig which probably isn't worth it for listening to YouTube videos.  Nevertheless it sounds at least twice as good as should be possible, and I can easily live with it.  That means the playback system for these videos is the headphone jack on your computer and $149 headphones.

Here is a link to the actual video:  https://drive.google.com/file/d/1C0SjzjHYwtm8GyjMGTc4G6YuGHD1xL17/view?usp=sharing

If you Download and then listen to this video vs. the one on YouTube you will clearly hear how the YouTube compression dumbs down the clarity.  It's a real shame. If you use the video player on Google, it does the same transcoding that YouTube does so no point in that either.






Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Burgermeester on 08/08/22 at 08:36:41

I've kind of been trying to stay away from this thread, but I'm starting to feel like I woke up at 8:00 p.m. and heard a pretty big party in progress next door. It's getting hard to ignore it.

Is this amp  going to make my dual UFO25 order obsolete? SET, yes? Just give me the bad (or good?) news now. Main reason for monoblocked UFOs was more watts.

I got about two years to go before delivery so maybe I can even get the MkII. <sigh>

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Lon on 08/08/22 at 11:06:58

At this point Steve seems to be saying that there are two top-tier amps, the SE84UFO25 and the Sarah. They’re different, but with the right speakers each can be equally mind-blowing.

That's not helpful perhaps. But I am pretty sure you can't go wrong either direction you might head. I'm in for the Sarah and the looonggg wait because I am loving the SE84UFO3 Monoblocks with the 25th mods and just have to experirence the 300B world.

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by JBzen on 08/08/22 at 11:36:36

The fact that Steve and Randy have been listening with the HDTs lately is very encouraging. The comments are very positive from Randy, who is a confirmed OB enthusiasts, of the unboxed sound of the HDTs.

Also a firm believer of OBs natural sound, I am looking forward to hearing the HDTs at Decfest along with all the open baffle offerings. I have purchased plans for the HDTs and hope the offering does not disappoint because HDTs will fit physically well into future plans.

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Same Old DD on 08/08/22 at 13:32:12


Lon wrote on 08/08/22 at 11:06:58:
I'm in for the Sarah and the looonggg wait because I am loving the SE84UFO3 Monoblocks with the 25th mods and just have to experirence the 300B world.


At least you have a "holdstead" while you wait.

I have heard two different Chinese 300B amps that friends owned. They sounded OK, I guess, but I was already a Zen owner. They had more power than I expected, but I was not impressed with sound quality. One was $500 range the other was $2500 range. Neither was outstanding.

I can't wait to hear the platform done right!

One thing that bothered me about the Chinese amps was how SHINY they tried to make them look. I mean the cases were both extruded aluminum, but they both had machined the surfaces and polished the accents, too distracting. I guess there's some competition to make them look "special" to some buyers. A bit too much pavonine ostentation for my taste.
They did run HOT!

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Lon on 08/08/22 at 14:02:01

I have actually only heard one 300B amp, twice. It was a Cary integrated, and first I heard it in a home that my father and I visited of one of his Swarthmore college roommates that he was reconnecting with. It was a fabulous home built overlooking a riverbed. He had an amazing system and at the heart of it was this amp, fed by a very expensive tuner at the time. It sounded great, the man told me it was "single-ended" not "push-pull" and I had just a tiny bit of that intriguing knowledge before hand. That led me to looking up SET amps I could afford. . . and I found Steve's site in time to order what turned out to be his 27th amp.

I heard that same Cary model again in Austin years later than the first time and it was in a less "mega-buck" system and I had a Decware Select at the time and I liked it, but also liked my Select, and I am not sure that the Cary had the best speaker matching possible. But I still was fascinated with the 300B sound and wondered at the possibilities.

I'm still wondering and will while I wait. ;)

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by BicycleJoe Lo-Fi on 08/08/22 at 15:06:58

Lon can you explain to me the difference between the Mono Block 25th and the Zen Triode Anniversary. I mean interior architecture, outer the most obvious difference is two separate transformers. I know each mono is single channel. I'm asking because I chose the upgrade Rachel with the goal of eventually having two amps running mono. Is there an advantage to having mono blocks instead of 2 two channel amplifiers. I know there isn't a Rachel mono bloc offered so this is strictly hypothetical.



Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by CAJames on 08/08/22 at 15:29:29


Quote:
Posted by: BicycleJoe Lo-Fi      Posted on: Today at 15:06:58
...Is there an advantage to having mono blocks instead of 2 two channel amplifiers...


The big difference is the mono blocks cost approximately what a single stereo amp costs, and have similar power output. So, if you don't need the power you get the advantages of mono blocks (short speaker cables, separate power supplies, channel isolation) for only a little more $$$ than a stereo amp. This is what Steve says:

These 'mono' amplifiers are essentially our basic model split in half, so there are no substantial gains in power because it's not about that ~ it's about transparency.


2 two channel amps (obviously) cost twice as much a one, but more than double the power when mono'd. And if you want balanced amps you need 4 channels, i.e. 2 two channel amps.



Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Lon on 08/08/22 at 15:49:58

CA pretty much explains it. Steve told me that my SE84UFO3 Monoblocks with the 25th Anniversary mods have just a bit more power than the stereo SE84UFO25, and that has resulted in a bit of headroom for me with my HR-1 speakers. I had wagered that the combo of Monoblocks and speakers would be a good match, and I'm glad I took the chance--I love this combination. I think that overall there is a beefier power supply that pays off with a bit more power and I don't know how that compares sonically as I don't have the stereo SE84UFO25 to compare. When Steve still had my pair he wrote that the Monoblocks had a bit more "masculine" sound than the stereo amp. I love how they sound.

One drawback of the monoblock design is that one has the cost of two cables, aftermarket fuses, sets of isolation footers etc. rather than one. One possible advantage is that with monoblocks one can use long interconnects and short speaker cables to locate amps close to speakers, which some claim has sonic advantages. I can't say as I haven't done this.

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Kahuna Jack on 08/08/22 at 19:30:25

that CH 'return of the candyman' is a killer album and Im lucky enough to own it on vinyl ( which Ive never played) . When i finally take it for a spin I know it's gonna be a gas as I mostly listen to it on my ipod.

Scott Amendola is on drums on that recording who I consider one the greatest contemporary drummers of our time. Having seen him live many times that dude's for real. I bet that 300b amp brought him to larger then life


Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Steve Deckert on 08/09/22 at 20:50:02


I had the pleasure of a video meeting with Western Electric this afternoon and they were kind enough to give us their blessing on the SEWE300B amplifier aka Sarah.  

They are preparing a coupon for a nice discount on the WE300B tube that we will provide to customers who have a Sarah on order.




Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by HockessinKid on 08/09/22 at 21:36:36

Steve,

That is really great news. Thank you for making this happen and to the principals at Western Electric. Outstanding!!!

HK

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Lon on 08/09/22 at 22:20:14

Good news!

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Steve Deckert on 08/16/22 at 04:16:46


UPDATE 08/15/2022

For the past few days the amp has sounded... off.  Something about it was wrong.  Getting lean.  Figures.  BUT, what actually happened....

I believe sometime last week my CXNv2 updated itself (firmware) and went from sounding great to off.  This is an inevitable outcome of firmware that by definition begs to be constantly updated and jacked with.  I must be one of the few left on planet with the ability to leave it alone when it works well.

So this evening I decided to see what was going on and switched from the CXNv2's digital output to the USB output from my computer.  Both are feeding the HOLO AUDIO MAY DAC.  Problem solved.  Up until now, the CXNv2 coax output usually sounded and staged slightly better than the USB.

So now that I have been jacked with a bit, it's time for some real world analogue.  I warmed up the tape machine for the first time since I built the amplifier.  And something came in the mail today.  I got lucky enough after 11 years of searching and wishing/hoping to find the holy grail tape from my youth... Supertramp Crime of the Century.  I had the tape, the albums and the CD's and the streaming.  Virtually all the digital version of this are ruined in my opinion which is harsh and coming from deeply rooted analog memory of the album. But what came in the mail wasn't the cassette or 4 track reel to reel or another pressing, instead I now have a copy of the actual 1/4 inch master tape at 15IPS!!!!!!!!

This is a tape I've been dreaming about hearing ever since I got into reel to reel tape... and what a treat I get to hear it on Decware gear which I didn't even know would exist when I first fell in love with this album!  More special is to experience the natural harmonic compression of the 300B tube when cranked to the wood playing balls out rock and roll!  The purpose of tonights test for the SEWE300B amplifier.  It is hooked to the corner horns right now but the test will be repeated on several other speakers as well.

This is not an easy recording to get right and if it isn't right it's wrong, or off...  I've been trying to enjoy it since I first heard it sound right in my car stereo I created in 1979 which I tricked out to the best of my abilities at the time.  It was surreal in that car, and no stereo has ever come close to getting it that right.  Until tonight.  Holy Crap!  We went WAY passed getting it right to "here's what dynamics really sound like". I'm proud to say this tape has absolutely kicked the HOLO AUDIO MAY's ass so bad it's almost embarrassing.  No fault of the DAC though because I'll have to make a digital copy of this tape to see how it would actually compare...

That said I am tripping on the experience. 300B is kinder than other amplifiers when at elevated distortion levels that just begin to become audible.  And since I set it up as a 4 watt amplifier, at 4 watts there is a lot of headroom.  This tape would have never played on the Zen Triode 2.3 watt platform without clipping.  On Sarah, it just sailed through it like nothing.  I feel like the amp wants to party.  Like this might be the perfect companion to take to Woodstock 1969.

I am not only surprised but impressed with the dynamics.  I have never heard these dynamics come out of the amp since I built it.  But that's what I get for listening only to digital during it's development.

I just finished side one and the solidity and density and naturalness and the way it is all so damn tight that it sounds serious in a way that usually only happens live.



TIME PASSES

Side Two has me transfixed.  I measured the SPL at the listening chair at 94dB 11 feet away from the speakers that are only a single six inch driver per side.  I can't say I've heard these speakers get any louder than this, regardless of amp, think ZMA...  

The density is killing me.  Crime of the Century has taken on a whole new meaning for me.  It is the crime of the century to make the world listen to the records, CD's, cassette tapes, and bullshit streams of this album.  It's like if the real thing were the best beer you ever had, all the other copies were watered down and pissed in.  The master tape hype is real.  I WILL be demoing this a DECFEST.  It's just SICK.

Side two over... that was just insane!  I can't even believe what I just heard.  This amplifier had some secrets I didn't know about.  I feel like there is a parallel with my small block chevy.  I feel like the tape machine blew the cobs out of the amplifier and it just crushed it!

How the hell is it possible to get that loud with that dynamic and weight and sense of power with four watts?  Audio Gods were here. They're here right now, because we're going to play both reels a second time.  Has to happen.  It was too good.  

So before I disappear into the mist, the lesson here is that this amp sounded like crap all week because it was so good it let me hear a completely failed firmware update to my once favorite streamer.  I started to panic.  I started to have visions of revisiting the circuitry.  That's how F'd up this hobby is.  When I unwrapped the tapes and flipped the switch on the tape machine, the audio gods quietly showed up, all of them, and chilled out on the back wall waiting to see what I would do when I heard what was about to happen.

So with that, we're going for round two...

Good night!

Steve






Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Steve Deckert on 08/16/22 at 05:22:12


Sorry but I just had to chime in again... After listening to those tapes we had an overwhelming urge to listen to more tapes.  So I went to my sacred all metal magnetic-field-proof tape cabinet and found two 8 inch reels in there that I have never seen before. No shit. Some incredibly well recorded jazz. It's just... well dammit -- my face melted off an hour ago and it's hard to talk. Point I wanted to make is these are not my tapes, they manifested in my cabinet. Can you guess how and why?  So now we know they really like Jazz with Sax.  God bless the Audio Gods and he has, obviously and me as well to have the privilege of their guidance.  You too are blessed because I'm not doing it for myself.  This is actually a relationship between them and you.  I am just a conduit.  You must first crave the good sound and seek it.  Then they steer you down the right paths. I swear if you ever own this amplifier and a tape machine you better also get some 'Depends' under garments so you don't ruin your listening chair.  It's a completely alien experience to anyone who hasn't heard it under these conditions.  It makes you realize that power is a placebo.  The density and hit transcends power.  Tonight I heard 4 watts shame most high power high dollar stereos in a simply demonstrative way that left no recourse.  I also realized sadly that perhaps 1% will ever hear the truth.  Truth is tape.  When you hear the truth and the weight of it you fold. It goes so far beyond what you thought the range was. It leaves you dumbstruck.


Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by BicycleJoe Lo-Fi on 08/16/22 at 05:22:33

I remember buying Supertramp Crime of the Century in London before it came out in the United States, I actually purchased it from Richard Branson at his little shop Virgin Records. I had gone over to buy rare blue eye soul R&B singles in the Barrows but came home with Lulu, the Man Who Sold The World, Leo Sayer The Show Must Go On, Super Tramp Dreamer and 10CC Rubber Bullets 45's none of which had US releases yet. Here you are almost 50 years later getting to relive it

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Steve Deckert on 08/16/22 at 05:26:15

Relive it I did.  As well lived it for the first time at the same time.

Steve

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by BicycleJoe Lo-Fi on 08/16/22 at 12:29:31

Just saw the new Sarah Video
I Thought I read in your build thread you were including an internal Zrock set at parity as part of the Sarah's design? I even asked you if I could get one put into the Rachel? https://youtu.be/HUTVpSPlqSI

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Lon on 08/16/22 at 14:31:25

I think the point of this video was to demonstrate that even though there is a bit of the ZROCK2 DNA in the Sarah amp that a ZROCK2 can still be employed with success. I for one am glad that is so! I intend to use mine when it is in hand many moons from now with my ZTPRE, ZBIT and ZROCK2. It bet it will sound magnificent.

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by BicycleJoe Lo-Fi on 08/16/22 at 15:12:49

Lon for me it really doesn't communicate that. The ZRock isn't even seen in the video except by name, from this video I'm not sure if the video is demonstrating an external ZRock2 or an internal ZRock. If there is a ZRock circuit already built into the Sarah why would you need a second ZRock?

I suppose if an external ZRock2 was used that might've been demonstrated better by flipping the bypass switch in the middle of the playback.

Personally I hope Steve is not using a second ZRock in the signal path, that redundancy seems illogical in a State of the Art top of the line Amplifier.

I am looking forward to hearing both The Sarah and the Rachel Solo and with the ZRock at Decfest.

This morning I also read the thread about the debut of the ZRock in 2017 and your final decision to reorder after canceling. I was unsure about buying one before today and had decided to wait until I heard the Rachel at the Decfest before making a decision.

[smiley=icqlite20.png]

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Lon on 08/16/22 at 15:22:22

I am not sure what you find so confusing. The ZROCK2 is actually shown in that video with the Chinese 300B tube boxes on top of it.

The Sarah does NOT have a complete ZROCK2 incorporated as a gain stage within it, it just has the initial gain stage built in, set at the gain point on the ZROCK2 where the EQ effect is about to happen but is not yet happening, in the ZROCK2 any further movement of the pot would lead to EQ enhancement.

So if you have a room such as I do that seems to eat up and diminish bass frequencies, and that you are not able to outfit with room treatment, why wouldn't you want to use a ZROCK2 to enhance them? I plan to keep using ZROCK2s in every system because they restore the bass that is missing convincingly and also enhance other frequencies. I think the intent of the video could have been deliniated better and agree a "bypass" portion would have illustrated the point that I think Steve was trying to make: even though the gain stage in the Sarah was in part borrowed from the ZROCK2, using a ZROCK2 in front of that was not redundant nor damaging to the sound, but an enhancement.

Now I may many moons from now find the Sarah does not NEED a ZROCK2 in my room. But I highly doubt it, and this video gives me peace of mind that I might find the ZROCK2 as great a tool in the future as it is now.

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by CAJames on 08/16/22 at 15:26:14


Quote:
Posted by: BicycleJoe Lo-Fi      Posted on: Today at 15:12:49

...If there is a ZRock circuit already built into the Sarah why would you need a second ZRock?


I think if you read what Steve said earlier in the thread he backed away from calling the circuit a "zrock" in favor of "12au7 driver stage" exactly to (try to) avoid this kind of issue. For me personally, I have no want or need of a zrock, but many Decware family members love what they do in their current setups and I'm sure will continue to love them with Sarah.

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by BicycleJoe Lo-Fi on 08/16/22 at 16:17:51

Hello CA Good Morning, thanks I went back and read the blow back about the internal addition of the Z rock and have to admit I avoided all that drama. So it's a hardwired circuit with no adjustability based around an internal 12AU7 strictly for gain. When I talked with Steve asking about including the Z rock internally in the Rachel he said it had no need for the gain but that with a Z rock externally my Rachel would be on a par with the new Sarah 300B which sort of confused me but I accepted his judgement.

[smiley=dankk2.gif]

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by BicycleJoe Lo-Fi on 08/16/22 at 17:09:30

Lon yes I surmised that might of been a Zrock with the tube boxes on top to the left of the Sarah while the volume knobs were adjusted. It could of just as easily been any number of black boxes. It certainly wasn't featured or even focused upon.

I am satisfied with the explanations put forward here but feel the video could have been clearer. Additionally I think a better choice of music could have been selected, the bass line reminded me of a ratchet gear.

I admit that could be due to my playback online with low quality Tin HiFi ear buds. I'm going to replay it through my 15 inch field coil speaker and listen again.

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Lon on 08/16/22 at 18:37:28

As far as what Steve told you, I believe that the Rachel and the Sarah share some DNA and both are excellent amps. I had a version of the SE34 Integrated before Rachel and it was a very nice amp. So much has changed since then--the Rachel has come and been in a few editions, the Sarah is on the horizon. The stable of components has gotten larger. . . as has the waiting list. It has been over 4 years now that I have enjoyed the Monoblocks and they have been a learning experience for me--they show me so much that each change I make in cabling, isolation, power and tubes just becomes another planet to explore. I won't say I'm bored because I'm still finding new territories to experience but I've reached a plateau of listening enjoyment that is amazing. And as soon as the Sarah was announced I felt a thrill--another galaxy to travel.

I see Steve's point about the Rachel and ZROCK2. If the ZROCK2 had been invented and available then I might have her still. The ZROCK2 is a fantastic component, and I'm relieved and excited to know from the experimentation Steve did that it "passed the test" with the Sarah.

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Lon on 08/16/22 at 19:12:16

And I have to make a correction: the box with the tube boxes on top is actually a ZBIT.

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by ChJKy (Chris) on 08/17/22 at 11:14:04

That does indeed look like a ZBIT as those 2 cables to the right of the box look more like XLRs...

I would find it helpful if Steve would show how his components are set up, in what order and what cables he is currently using on some of his videos.

I myself have an MK5 and ZROCK2 on order and I must admit that I've changed my mind 3 times already. The more info I get from Steve and you guys on this forum, the more I may change my mind again but in the end, I am getting a Decware amp...

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by CAJames on 08/17/22 at 15:51:44


Quote:
Posted by: ChJKy (Chris)      Posted on: Today at 11:14:04

...I would find it helpful if Steve would show how his components are set up, in what order and what cables he is currently using on some of his videos...


I think you will get a lot more of that kind of information reading Steve's posts on the message board rather than looking for it in the videos.

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Tooppy on 08/21/22 at 18:12:28


Quote:
I also realized sadly that perhaps 1% will ever hear the truth.  Truth is tape.


Oh yes....that shows how important the source is !
I usually listen to Qobuz through an IFI streamer, but that streamer do not provide Qobuz so I need to use a third party software. As they said long ago they should offer Qobuz, the other day, I opened their dedicated application to see if something was done about it.
They did nothing (yet I hope), so I plaid a bit with this app and read some files from my NAS.....Woua ! What a shock ! A lot more of sound quality in all departments ! Beside the fact that the app is rather crappy, the sound isn't.
Morality, the same sound track from a digital app to another can transform your system !
Source is key for sure.

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by BicycleJoe Lo-Fi on 08/21/22 at 19:02:25

I disagree this is a big point with me. I want to say
sitting at a table or at the bar, you know in the club.
Maybe your way back but you are there when its happening.
That's the truth man, everyone else is chasing the dragon

I love records, I worked retail when they sold 7" reels from many major labels. It was a step up in quality but it was r duplicated at high speed so you know. The slower the speed the better the quality but tape is expensive so 15 IPS versus seven IPS versus 3 1/2 IPS

Everything else is a facsimile of that. Eye Contact the temperature of the room, people sitting down with you it's all part of it.
That's the Truth, I wouldn't lie

Yeah the studio is an instrument, and everything in the chain matters. But the key word is its a reproduction.

Every one of us experiences those reproductions in different ways
And every one of us experiences live interactions in different ways

I'm just trying to say it's two different truths.

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by JBzen on 08/22/22 at 11:43:51

I agree with your assertion here BJ.

Couple weeks ago I happened to walk out of a good pulled pork restaurant into a blue grass band playing on the patio. The air was calm and comfortably warm. There was a few people around being it was early and they just started playing. The ambient noise was low. I sat at a picnic table about 20' in front of the players purposely to listen to the instruments. There was a double bass, acoustic guitar, mandolin, and banjo.  Some amplification for singing. This was very revealing on the status of my "chasing the dragon." At home in the Charoit it seems that the dragon is giving me a good ride!

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by BicycleJoe Lo-Fi on 08/22/22 at 12:17:06

There you go you, you experienced two different truths, live at the country fair was the right medicine no matter how imperfect. Music filtered through the studio or even recorded live isn't that other thing that you had at the country fair.

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Tooppy on 08/22/22 at 12:49:06

@BicycleJoe

Of course what you say is right, we all know that. But we all know also that it wasn't what Steve meant by "the truth", he meant "the closer to the recording" which cannot be "the life experience" because a recording is just "a second best" depending on choice made by the sound engineer etc...

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by CAJames on 08/22/22 at 16:59:50

I guess to me it isn't so much about "truth" as it is about "good." I've been to lots of live music that sounds pretty bad, either because the space and/or the sound system was bad or the performers just weren't that good, or all the above. OTOH I have shelves full of great music recorded by some of the finest musicians (and recording engineers) of the last 100 years lining my listening room. So if it is a choice between meh live or a great recording on my great sounding stereo mostly the recording wins.

To be clear, I've been to great concerts and the gestalt of a (great) live performance is unbeatable. But I live out the middle of nowhere now and the opportunity for great concerts is pretty limited. Even when I lived in LA and went to a lot of them, the meh type greatly outnumbered the really memorable ones. Of course this is JMO/FWIW/YMMV but it takes a lot for me to turn off a sure thing on my stereo to take my chances in the real world.


Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Steve Deckert on 08/25/22 at 01:14:48


Quote:
it takes a lot for me to turn off a sure thing on my stereo to take my chances in the real world.


Grin.

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Steve Deckert on 08/25/22 at 02:50:06


UPDATE 08/24/2022

As I write this, the amplifier is playing on the house speakers and sounding delicious. Its is the Aphrodite of HIFI right now. So within this protective bubble of serenity because of the good sound it's easy to write the truth. This amp has some surprises. It's kind of like marrying your girlfriend... This is why I take so much time during the development cycle to get to know the amp.







I have discovered there is a difference between this and basically all of our other amplifiers after all. It is actually somewhat selective about which speakers it will use to totally take you. I hear bigger differences between the speakers than with our SE84UFO series or actually all of our amplifiers. All of our amplifiers make you feel like there is a real synergy happening regardless of the speakers you use, so long as they get loud enough.

The HDT Silver8 speakers that have become a reference to reckon with using the SE84UFO25, sound a bit off on the 300B amp. So do the new T6 bookshelf speakers. The HDT become picky about placement and if everything is not perfect they can get lean. The T6 just sound extra smooth almost to a fault. The Tube Tots kick their ass, both speakers.  However, on the SE84UFO25 all three speakers are so good it's hard to pick one.

The House speakers are insane with the 300B as are the Tube Tots, and all of the open baffle speakers. This is encouraging from the perspective that it likes hi-fi speakers.  88dB 3-ways with high quality crossovers are less impressive on the SE84UFO25 due to power.  The 300B amp also likes single driver crossoverless and speakers like the DNA, DNA2, CORNER HORNS, HR-2's, DM945's to name a few, but it is perplexing why certain speakers sound better on the SE84UFO25.

This is a common experience for most hifi situations, I believe it is called synergy. Nevertheless I have been getting away with largely overcoming synergy for years so this is somewhat of a new experience for me in this room. That said, let's pick the two speakers that I've heard sound better on the UFO25 and pretend we've never heard them on the UFO25 and only listen to them on the 300B. We would think it was incredible. The HDT depending on placement if lean would just be supplemented with a sub. It isn't until you compare it with the Decware holy grail, UFO25 amp that your perspective changes.

Also on a side note, I am still with my decision to use 6N6P for the driver tubes that will ship with the amplifier. I always come back to those and I've been trying lots of stuff over the past months. This is good, because I'm pretty sure that's what I silk screened on the chassis that I ordered. Hopefully I'll see those soon. The high-end paint always causes delays ever since covid 19.




Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Steve Deckert on 08/25/22 at 03:16:58

CYROTONE UPDATE

Now is an ideal time to switch from the WE300B tubes to the Cryotone 300B's. I'm in the zone with the WE300B's and have been for the past 3 weeks. They are so transparent. It's a pretty steep mountain to come off of so let's see what happens!

OK tubes are switched...








Well, I can tell you immediately that we are at the same altitude on the mountain. We didn't get knocked down to a lower place on the mountain. In fact we're still at the same camp site!

That's a surprise on one side of the coin and completely believable on the other.  

So we're on the mountain at the peak and we're wondering what happens when we toss in the Cryotone 300B tubes...

Two things happened. 1) the grass got greener and fuller with less bare spots. 2) the mountain got fatter under us.  The density and boldness and color depth of the sound is better.

The only tradeoff was the extreme focus. So now I can't count the leaves on the tree at 50 yards, but the leaves are greener and the sky is bluer so who cares. And on a side note, the WE300B is superior to the JJ300B, so that speaks volumes for the Cryotone process.

The only thing that isn't better is the female textures that float behind the notes because with this tube the sound is more present and with bolder colors that draw your attention away from background textures. I would say the more realistic of the two is probably the Cryotone and I think most people will like it better. In the end it will no doubt be determined by room acoustics, speakers, cables and so on, but the takeaway is that this tube is impressive like the WE300B. I am really impressed because I have the stock JJ 300B tubes to compare it against and there really isn't any comparison.

The WE300B is a silkier tube. Like fine scotch. The Cryotone is a bolder flavor with more punch and aftertaste that many would find it hard not to prefer. There is no way to mistake one for the other.

The Cryotone feel/sounds like there is more power. That's worth noting. The amp definitely has the sound of being turned up louder / dynamics but at a lower volume.  Feels like 3dB.  If the harmonic distortion is lower like it was on the EL34 tubs we tested in the TORII JRv2... the amp could easily be re-rated at higher power than 4 watts. The only reason it is rated at 4 watts is because that is where the distortion equals our other Zen Triode amplifiers.

On the 88dB house speakers I always turn the amp up to the full 4 watts to hit that magic room filling level and I can clearly hear I have more headroom with this tube.  

You can click on the pictures for a high res downloadable version.

Steve



Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Steve Deckert on 08/25/22 at 04:47:50



Thinking out loud...


As I continue to listen to these, I come away with a reminder of the power of triodes vs. pentodes and tetrodes.  Despite for example on a Zen amp putting out 2.3 watts in triode vs. 5.7 in pentode, the triode actually has more usable power. It gets bigger. It hits harder. This 300B amp is a testament to the paradoxical power of the high distortion triode over the lower distortion push pull tetrode amps of today. Honestly, I can't imagine needing any more power or dynamics on these 88dB speakers. The only time 400 watts would be somewhat entertaining compared to this is after a few beers and I've had a few beers and have zero desire to turn the music up. That actually makes sense, but that's another conversation for another time.

Also knowing that two pair of tubes broke during the relentless treatment to make this single pair possible is a real testament to the dedication and drive of Don and Roger at Cryotone. These guys are so serious it's just fun!

I am pleased to say that they have a Zen Triode amplifier of their own to play with.  It is a bonding element that keeps us on the same page and is also required to develop the process for SE84UFO Cryotone tube compliments that are now available on their site.  

So we're about 2 hours into it now, with the Cryotone in Sarah and the space pop is ultra high.  Space pop is when sounds pop from 3D space.  It's a form of extreme presence and speed and resolution and focus.  The presence is just borderline real.  I keep moving so I don't get in the musicians way.  I'm right on stage with many recordings using these tubes.  If you go in the next room it will sound and feel like real musicians are in the other room.  It's spooky.  

So fast forward to the inevitable thought puzzle... which tube to get.  Here's how I see it... if you have the budget to afford the WE300B tubes then you can afford the Cryotone 300B as well.  Get both.  You'll be done.  Endless hours of fascination going between the two and trying to wrap you head around which is "better" and no worries about much else out there sounding as good.

I am leaning heavily towards shipping the amp with "backup" tubes, the ones I like so much from China, so that when the amp is shipped it has a full tube compliment.  Don't worry, they will be good enough that I won't really care if you listen to anything else or not.  That said, they will be a back up pair or just something different to enjoy when you get in the mood to switch things up.  Randy and I really enjoyed tasting the different 300B tubes in our collection ranging from $60 each to $850 each.  We know that everyone is going to end up buying the WE300B or Cryotone 300B tubes but for those on a budget witch is many of us, the sleeper China tubes can get you through the first year easily.




Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by johnnycopy on 08/25/22 at 05:08:06

Steve have you tried the 12au7 from cryotone in the zrock2?

If not do you think there would be any benefit?

If you have tried it I would appreciate you sharing your experience

Thanks John

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by BicycleJoe Lo-Fi on 08/25/22 at 05:11:28


Quote:
Of course what you say is right, we all know that. But we all know also that it wasn't what Steve meant by "the truth", he meant "the closer to the recording" which cannot be "the life experience" because a recording is just "a second best" depending on choice made by the sound engineer etc..


I was referring to the idea that reel to reel was more truth than other recorded medium, that's  what I got from Steve's comment. That he believed magnetic tape was a supreme truth. I disagreed with that and countered that by definition that ultimate truth was really only available live. I then also indicated that I believe there are two truths. Recorded Music with the studio and microphones processing the sounds whether they have been recording digitally or with a complete analog chain to hard drive, disc or tape and then secondly what I consider the naked truth. I may prefer one over to the other as an experience but I acknowledge we can reach an emotional plateau with either. I just stated live music is more an ultimate truth and the other is a recording of the truth not the actual truth. That truth can pretty much suck live or on disk.

What you say about live performances being a crapshoot is absolutely verdad, but the same applies to recorded sound. Nothing is more telling than the original source. In the studio you CAN make a silk purse out of a sow's ear.

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Tooppy on 08/25/22 at 09:06:39

@BicycleJoe.
I understand and your reply is welcome to clarify your first post.

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Tooppy on 08/25/22 at 09:12:50

Personnally I love when Steve is thinking loud.
I said on some other forum that an on going chit chat between Steve and Nelson Pass would be great to listen to !

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Lon on 08/25/22 at 10:50:53

Thanks for the continuing observations. With my experience with Wathen tubes I'm inclined to go Western Electric, and also from your descriptions between the two I think that would be my preference. Glad also the HR-2 are still doing well with the amp. Looking forward to the chance to hear this amp in the future!

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by JBzen on 08/25/22 at 11:07:52

The band playing was good. The climate undistracting. All cognitive interactions pleasant. An unforgettable moment. 1st truth true.
https://youtu.be/FyyCJN3aQ5M


Quote:
In the studio you CAN make a silk purse out of a sow's ear.
 2nd truth true.


Quote:
Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Reply #502 - 08/22/22 at 7:17am 

There you go you, you experienced two different truths, live at the country fair was the right medicine no matter how imperfect. Music filtered through the studio or even recorded live isn't that other thing that you had at the country


Thanks for making me aware of that.

John



Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by HockessinKid on 08/25/22 at 11:56:07

Steve,

Thank you for considering shipping the 300B amp with the inexpensive Chinese 300B tubes. This will be of great help to those of us who will have to save up to purchase more expensive WE or Cryotone tubes.

HK

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Tony on 08/25/22 at 14:54:58

Regarding the Chinese, less expensive tubes for the 300B initially, I had the same thought as HK.  That's helpful.

In the meantime, does anyone have a lead as to where one would eventually shop for 300B tubes?  For most of those on the waiting list, the Sarah amp is still many months away.  Will Decware be offering for sale a Western Electric 300B?

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Lon on 08/25/22 at 15:15:08

Steve did mention Western Electric will offer a discount to Sarah owners, but no further details yet.

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by CAJames on 08/25/22 at 16:07:28


Quote:
Posted by: Tony      Posted on: Today at 14:54:58

...In the meantime, does anyone have a lead as to where one would eventually shop for 300B tubes?


If I were in the market for quality (relatively) inexpensive 300B tubes I would go here:

https://web211.secure-secure.co.uk/tube-and-valve-electronics.co.uk/default2.asp

and order the "BILLINGTON GOLD SPECIAL EDITION" 300Bs for GBP 166 (about  200 US$) per pair. It isn't a webstore, you have to work via email and you need to order at least GBP 240 to get the best prices but they are excellent to deal with and have very high quality stuff.


Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Kamran on 08/25/22 at 16:48:19

Thanks Steve…I’ve been pining for an update on Sarah for the past couple of days.

1) Love the idea of backup tubes.  This way, not only is the amp immediately usable upon delivery, but also when and if something goes wrong with the more expensive tubes (that most ppl will likely get) and folks are waiting for a replacement.

2) The whole speaker synergy thing is interesting.  Maybe you and or someone else can clarify what exact speaker pair is being referred to as “House Speakers”?  I was also wondering if you have tried it with the Omega speakers you also sell?

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Lon on 08/25/22 at 16:51:29

2) This thread should answer your question:

https://www.decware.com/cgi-bin/yabb22/YaBB.pl?num=1637209185/0#0

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Kamran on 08/25/22 at 17:14:35

Thanks Lon—that filled the knowledge gap.  Fascinating thread.

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Earthbound on 08/25/22 at 18:56:15

Certainly did! What a Herculean effort.

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Mannytheseacow on 08/26/22 at 02:58:15

“With the war in Ukraine, Russian tubes are hard to get and Western Electric is stepping up to the plate to bring many of these tubes to market. Right now they have the original 300B tubes but are adding more.  To support this USA company I am making a DECWARE 300B amplifier specifically for the Western Electric 300B tubes that cost nearly half the price of the amplifier!  Obviously the resulting sound of a Decware 300B amp would have to be so over the top to justify such an expensive tube, but we are confident it is not only possible but likely.”

Seems like the original intention was to develop this amp for voicing with the WE tubes.

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Steve Deckert on 08/26/22 at 04:11:47


Make no mistake, the amp is voiced for the WE300B tubes.  This is why it was so fascinating to spend 3 days listening to different tubes in it to see what happened.  We couldn't make anything bad happen, each tube simply sounded different, which is what you want.  But there has to be a standard, and since we built the amp to support Western Electric in any way that we could, we're obviously going to have the WE300B be the default signature voiced with that.  

The WE300B is more like the Decware signature than the Cryotone for sure.  That's not to say one is better than the other because it ultimately comes down to synergy with your system and ears and tastes.  If you're going to voice a 300B amplifier, you would obviously use the original 300B made by the company that invented it: ). And unless the other brands of 300B tubes are defective, they should all sound to their full potential in this amplifier.  

Steve. : )


Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Steve Deckert on 09/01/22 at 02:53:22


UPDATE 8/31/2022

A pair of Chinese perf plate 300B came in yesterday. They are the bulb shape made by Linlai called the model 300b-n.



While I have to say that I can't find a lot wrong with them, I am still having withdrawal from the Cryotone and Western Electric. This particular Linlai tube is light and transparent. The top end has more grain. But again I always remind myself that everything is judged relative to what you've heard. It sounds very similar to a 2.3 watt Zen Amp in basic signature but so far lacks some of the same liquidity and density.

Based on what I'm hearing it would be a great tube for speakers that sound fat or a touch dull on the top. But I won't make it much farther... hold on...

Yes, I switched back to the WE300B and now the sound is elevated and without grain. In fact it is amazing the difference in refinement. My ears like it. They were itchy with the Linlai by comparison. I'm sure the Linlai will be better with time, I only got about 36 hours on them. But I'm not hearing that seed of potential that I can usually zero in on.

Steve




Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by BicycleJoe Lo-Fi on 09/01/22 at 05:37:24

As I've noted before the interior construction of the different contemporary 300B tubes are strikingly different. I wonder what specifications these tubes have to meet to be labeled 300B?
As demonstrated so well by Decware and in other contemporary designs many different tube types are interchangeable within the same family and with pin out adapters. That  adaptability may be the reason these tubes interior construction are so strikingly different. I wonder how the specifications and measurements compare to the original vintage WE 300B tube and the current production WE 300B. here are the specs for the current WE 300B tube.

Classification
Moderate power, filamentary triodes for Class-A service.

Application
Audio-frequency amplifier in positions where power outputs of approximately ten watts or less are required at relatively low plate voltages.

Dimensions
Dimensions, outline diagrams of the tubes and bases, and the arrangement of electrode connections to the base terminals are shown in Figures 1 and 2.

Base and Mounting
These vacuum tubes employ medium, four-pin thrust type bases suitable for use in Western Electric 143B or similar sockets. The 300B tube has the bayonet pin so located that it may also be mounted in a Western Electric 100M, 115B, or similar socket.

The tubes may be mounted in either a vertical or horizontal position. If mounted In a horizontal position, the plane of the filament, which is indicated In Figure 2, should be vertical.

Average Direct Interelectrode Capacitances
Grid to plate 15 µµf.
Grid to filament 9 µµf.
Plate to filament 4.3 µµf.

Filament Rating
Filament voltage 5.0 volts, a.c. or d.c.
Nominal filament current 1.2 amperes

The filaments of these tubes are designed to operate on a voltage basis and should be operated at as near the rated voltage as possible. When alternating current is used for heating the filament, the grid and plate returns should be connected to a center tap on the secondary of the filament transformer.




Current Production WE 300B


Vintage NOS WE 300B circa 1952


Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by BicycleJoe Lo-Fi on 09/01/22 at 13:18:19

I am posting these photos so we can compare the internal structure of the various 300 B tubes. IMO only the Takasuki TA300B was comparatively similar to the Western Electric construction
Photo's are not the defining criteria but this does demonstrate the wide range of tube constructions being identified as 300B.



JJ 300B


Wathen Cryotone 300B


Takatsuki 300B
[/url

PS Vane 300B[url=https://imgbb.com/]


Linlai 300B Global


Linlai 300B -N


Linlai 300B


Linlai WE Replica 300B


Shugang 300B

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Steve Deckert on 09/03/22 at 04:51:04


UPDATE 9/2/2022

I honestly thought I would have the chassis by now, but the politics of logistics and economics is mucking things up and everything now has to take twice as long or more...

So I continue to listen.

I am really starting to develop a respect for this WE300B tube... I think we're hitting the magic planetary alignment with respect to burn-in.  Interestingly, I feel like I am listing to the finish, and it is so much like a Zen Triode Amplifier that I am actually surprised. The signature is nearly identical as is the transparency. It definitely is a Zen Triode Amplifier with the Decware house sound as I've heard some you call it... but it brings it's own magic to the party.

And this damn switch!!!  Boy I must have hit it right because I have convinced myself that both settings are the best more than a few times. Right now I am listening to it in the smiley mode and the definition is breathtaking. It must be doing something right because in the last 2 hours I have favorited tracks on 19 albums which means I have added 19 albums to my collection in the last 2 hours. It's like when I hit that switch it paged the algorithm in Roon to pick all my favorite music that I've never heard before!

See...

And this damn switch, it has a temptation that fools you. You tend to pick one setting over the other depending on speakers and output impedance settings on the amp but you first choice is probably not right. Just a more is better illusion. Pick the one that you initially think is your second choice. Spend an hour with it.  

I've never added 19 albums in 2 hours before. Never. Coincidence? We will see.

I am pleased to say that with this tube on the 88dB house speakers turned up as loud as I can get it without audible distortion has really won my respect. The amplifier likes to play at it's full output so these speakers let it do that and the output just happens to be exactly the correct SPL for my 17x27 room.

So back to switch... in one position you hear more midrange density and presence which means that part is louder.  You always pick the louder. This is probably why I had myself convinced it was superior... But it turns out the smiley setting is so clean and tight and transparent it dissolves itself in service of the music exactly like the SE84UFO25.  

I think the next step is introduce a Cryotone 12AU7 and see if I can get them to consider developing a recipe for the 6N6P.

I am pleased that the 6N6P is turning out to be my overwhelming favorite driver tube in this amplifier. There are substantial reasons why it should sound better, and it turns out that it does.  It means that people who buy this amp can just keep the the 6N6P tubes in it, or replace them with Cyrotone 6N6P if they become available.  The tube works across all 10 different 300B's that we have tried so far with a similar graceful balance.

The input tube is as you know is a 12AU7 and so far I have run 3 or 4 different NOS with great results.  Presently I am using an RCA clear top.

Again, I have to remind myself that I am not running a preamp and still using a bone stock Cambridge CXNv2 Streamer/Dac directly connected to with a pair of our DSR3 interconnects.  The sound is juicy and dimensional like you tend to get with a preamp, but transparent like the sound when you don't use a preamp.  So it is high on the fidelity scale.  Kind of the best of both worlds with half the parts.

Happy weekend!

Steve







Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by JBzen on 09/03/22 at 11:48:28

Glad to see you placed the CXNv2 back in the system. You make me want to get a wonderful planned month in Utah over quickly so to head out your place in October. No fear, once I get started my anticipated adventure to Decfest will take a back burner.

Have a great weekend...month!

John

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Kamran on 09/04/22 at 04:24:01

Have a great time in Utah John! This development thread has my anticipation level at an all time high.  Can’t wait to hear the Sarah 300b in person!

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Ricardo on 09/06/22 at 14:57:19

Boy oh boy... This thread makes my anxiety shoot through the roof... can't wait for the 300B to be out!

I'm so excited about this that I may or may not have enquired about a pair of WE300B's from a Europe distributor... I blame it all on you guys! :P

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Lon on 09/06/22 at 15:38:53

I hear you. It's an exciting amp on the horizon. The "feeling" is going to get even worse when reports from Decfest start appearing.

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Steve Deckert on 09/08/22 at 04:17:17


UPDATE 9/7/2022

Tonight I realized that I am more than satisfied that the amp sounds great with a good DAC plugged directly into it.  This is the only way I have allowed myself to listen to the amp for the majority of the evaluation.   So yea, it passed.  It's good.  

So in a continuation of this exploration it was time to see what could be done.  In other words, rather than just a DAC, what if we had money no object source and preamp... what would that do?

Let's find out!





 







If I told you it sucked I wouldn't be able to keep a straight face... so whatever you're imaging is what I'm hearing.  The textures and juiciness and naturalness increased immensely.

The amp is even better than I thought.

Have a great night!

Steve










Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by BicycleJoe Lo-Fi on 09/08/22 at 07:38:51

Which 3 way speakers are those Steve ? are those what you call the house speaker?

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Tooppy on 09/08/22 at 09:56:48


Quote:
Which 3 way speakers are those Steve ? are those what you call the house speaker?


Yes

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by funch on 09/09/22 at 02:21:17

I'm curious about that preamp and the rectifier.

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Steve Deckert on 09/09/22 at 02:27:13


Here is a link to the "house speakers"...

https://www.decware.com/cgi-bin/yabb22/YaBB.pl?num=1637209185/0#0


Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Steve Deckert on 09/09/22 at 03:09:08


The preamp is a prototype of the ZMF OTL that I did for ZMF headphones. It has a pair of RCA outputs so it can double duty as a preamp.  As a preamp it sounds very similar to the CSP325 anniversary preamp.

The rectifier is an ACME globe 274B which I have found to be a little spongey for use in our amplifiers, but on the preamp it is quite nice.

So from now until DECFEST in October I will be running Sarah with a preamp so I can fully experience that side of the coin and see what happens.  So far the difference is obvious -- the stock Cambridge CXNv2 became denser, richer, fuller.  More musical, more forgiving.  As expected, and now that I've heard that I am very happy with the voicing of this amplifier.  It plays both sides of the fence very well.

And as is often the case, because of this 'extraness' in the sound, it sounds like there is more power when I'm sure there is not.  It's about what it is doing with the power it has.  In fact if you follow this result backwards, by deleting the preamp and having a slightly leaner sound and then continuing by deleting the amplifier and replacing it with high power / high input sensitivity -- the sound leans out more.  Parallel the output devices and add some feedback to further smear things and the leaner sound becomes less grating from softened edges.  Get greedy with the power output and add some real hardness to the sound and loose the ability to drive difficult loads all in one shot by running too low a primary impedance, fixing the bias and raising the high voltage... but hey that's what sells.  Delete the impedance matching device that blocks back EMF from the voice coil, aka, the output transformers and stack high value electrolytic caps in the signal path with more negative feedback and more paralleled output devices and some circuit boards to dry things out a bit more and you have what I call modern day HIFI.  It drives the subwoofer market, because the sound is missing so much that even when you play it loud you can't find the hit you're looking for.  So you add a subwoofer to balance the lean sound and distract the listener from the real issue.

This is how we got from 4 watts to 400 watts with a sub.  Just by diluting the musical signal flowing through the devices with the devices and then trying to fix it with bandaids.




Most of us thought we would catch the Road Runner with power.  Watts is speed right?  We tried 400 watts.  Even 4000 watts and just blew ourselves into the side of the cliff. It turns out the secret has always been seduction. 4 of just the right kind of watts will work and likely is the only thing that ever will work to catch that damn bird.





Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by BicycleJoe Lo-Fi on 09/09/22 at 15:02:57

Have you run the Sarah with the ZP3 and your TT yet?

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Lon on 09/09/22 at 16:09:02

Great news that the Sarah amp sounds so good with a preamp as I can't imagine running one without my ZTPRE or my CSP3 with the Anniversary mods!

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Steve Deckert on 09/20/22 at 01:38:10


Yes, the preamp can be a magic pill.  It's addition is not unlike taking television to smellavision.


Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Steve Deckert on 09/20/22 at 03:10:51


UPDATE: 9/19/2022

Some local Decware followers came across some reel to reel tapes and wondered if it wouldn't be fun to get together and listen to some of them. They've been here before at DECFEST and are devout audiophiles.  Plus they offered to bring pizza and beer!  I had to say yes.

When they arrived the bag of tapes came out and they were 4 track 3-3/4 speed tapes.  I figured they might be, and I haven't gotten to hear any yet on my tape machine so this should be fun!  For those who don't know, this the lowest speed and format for reel to reel tape.  It has rolled treble response but nearly unlimited bass.  This is good because the tapes were vintage rock and no one needs response out to 40kHz listening to Black Sabbath.

The 4 track head on my machine turned out to be missaligned so that the highs were reduced in one channel and the channel wasn't as loud.  Now in a stuffy audiophile atmosphere this might be a problem, but we just rolled with it so we could listen to the tapes.  Since the amplifier has dual volume we just balanced the channels, had a beer and listened to it that way!

Despite this severe handicap Sarah managed to make Black Sabbath and everything else we played sound great!  It was well balanced, smooth, good depth, sounded like you were at a good outdoor concert, made you really love Black Sabbath.  Had we popped in the same CD this would not have happened.

We had Sarah hooked to the House speakers, which is really pushing it for listening to tape due to the dynamic range. What was interesting is that we also listened to Aja in this handicapped state and found it to have more inner detail than the records of which they had a collection of different pressings as do I.  They were hearing lots of little things that were not on the records.  And this is the lowest, laughed at by tape heads format.  

Did it have the dynamics of master tape, no.  So that gave us an idea.  Listen to some master tapes. The two-track heads on the tape machine are boutique and well aligned.

We started with Supertramp Crime of the Century.  An unbelievable master copy I recently came across.  The first thing that happened is the amp was turned up too loud and starting to distort.  I turned it down a bit and we listened to the first 3 tracks and then I paused the tape.  You have to understand that this master tape has approximately 10dB more dynamic range than the previous tapes we just listened to.  4 watts on 88dB speakers...

The sound was incredible.  However it wasn't able to handle the dynamic swings with a 4 watt amp if it were turned up where it should be, so I decided to up the game with the appropriate speakers.  The ZF15L master series baffles were pulled out from the other side of the room and installed in front of the House speakers.  This added 12dB of dynamic range and SPL which has the potential to be well over twice as loud.

Hit play and just grooved out on a deep rich effortlessly dynamic and realistically scaled performance. So it was a fun evening focused on tape where we just happened to use Sarah as the main amplification.

Tonight through some trial and error I found the perfect placement for these large baffles on this end of the room and I can assure you it is not where I would intuitively placed them but when I got them there it was like unlocking an ancient puzzle and opening the door to nirvana.  My first placement happened just as the Audio Gods had some ultra dry, super flat and forward sounding recordings playing back to back on the Roon Radio...  It was so bad.  I used it as a tool and started moving the speakers around.  I was stunned at how much more tolerable this series of recordings got as I went.  As I revisited it repeatably during the next few minutes trying to make this recording sound bearable, I went against my instincts and placed them where I figured they wouldn't be optimized as they are too close to the House speakers, etc., but nevertheless I popped them into the picture in my mind (Audio Gods) and this poor recording stopped sucking and I was actually able to appreciate quite a few redeeming qualities.  I was amazed at the difference in sound from where I first placed the speakers to now.  Not even close.  It went from forward and flat and in your face with no bass to deep and wide and rich and invisible.

So after amazing myself with that, I changed to some known good tracks and was flabbergasted.


This was almost too good a gift to be true, just before DECFEST.  The Audio Gods don't want me to handicap their blessings I guess ; )

This gave me another idea, since it happened this afternoon during work, I had all day to listen to it while I worked.  As with speaker positioning / tuning bass is a big factor and I wanted to hear what happened with music that really hits, so I pulled up a playlist for the ZF15L that contains probably a hundred tracks.  I haven't listened to it for almost exactly one year.  That's because I listened to it to death and grew tired of it. It was a playlist that I used to evaluate all of our amps and speaker combos for almost a year until I couldn't enjoy it anymore.  You could say I experienced each track from lots of combinations during that time until there just wasn't anything left to discover... no new perspectives.  No new smells.

I listened to that playlist on the system shown below all day today and was taken aback at the overall sound.  On so many levels it just seemed to be blowing everything away.  It had me craving the next track like the first time I head the playlist.  In fact it went beyond that because the sound was so much to process I didn't remember at least 20 of the tracks which is to say they sounded so different that they didn't register.  That should tell you something about divine synergy which is what I have to call it.

Between the limitless dynamics of this system, the Cryotone input tube 5670 in Sarah and the preamp and this golden speaker placement, I don't ever want to change it.  In fact I don't have to, because the House Speakers are for my Zen TORII Mono's and Sarah can sit right where she is front and center driving the large baffles.  It will be two systems that find permanence in my room.  With the corner horns on the other end I now will have 3 systems that never move.  



click to enlarge



Testing Sarah... model SEWE300B.  This particular choice of speakers, placement, amplifier and room are so locked it is unlikely it will ever be moved.  The cables preamp and source are also part of this amazing and rare synergy. The large open baffles are connected to the amp which is 4 watts, the speakers are 100dB.  It has some serious balls.


Several times in an audio journey you come to a memorable point where you become scared to touch anything.  You honestly have never heard anything this good so you can't justify rolling tubes to see what happens, or changing anything.  You are afraid to touch it.  It has never sounded this good so you now shift from years of monkeying around with shit all the time to see if you can make it better to trying to preserve this sacred golden egg you've accidentally found.

I think the Audio Gods have timed all of these things to come together at this moment.  The WE300B tubes are just broken in, the Cryotone 5670 that compliments the preamp I'm using so nicely that showed up by surprise from Don at Cryotone , the speaker choice and placement on this end of the room...  

So for those readers who have never been here and no doubt think I'm flowering things up because how can it keep always be the best he's ever heard, etc., I ask myself the same thing enough times to realize it is a combination of change and actual improvements over time. The paradox is that change with passing time is an improvement perceptually.  Anyway this year at DECFEST everyone will hear it for themselves so you an ask them what they thought.

I can tell you I am hearing things I've never heard come out of this room before.  The music is alive.  How is it possible to go from here to where we were prior?  I am simply stunned at how good recordings actually are if you can manage to properly decode one. ;)

It's overwhelming.  The presence is so big, so real... so unexpected.  It is disorienting.  It has to be the speaker placement.  See, it has me questioning the obvious... right?

Holy shit, I just realized the Audio Gods sent my local friends over to get me to move the Big Speakers to the other end of the room so we could listen to tape... which is what started this.  

OK, now it's starting to all become so obvious.  Just prior to all of this, two days ago the right Torii Mono after many years of service had a beeswax flat stacked cap short and redline the meter.  I am pleased to say that despite this, the tube plates never cherried even after being this way for hours before I noticed it.  With only one tube playing it still sounded good... go figure.  These are the amps that would have been used with the House Speakers to play the tapes.  So the Audio Gods blew up one of the capacitors so I would have to use Sarah,... which sounds spectacular on the House Speakers on digital, but the tape machine has big dynamics that surpass the streaming requiring lots more power.

Yup, I hope you can see how this all works... all you have to do is react the right way and it continues to happen.  They love good sound because the universe IS sound.


Happy listening!



Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Kamran on 09/20/22 at 03:32:18

My God, DECFEST can’t come soon enough! Coincidentally, I just looked at the calendar half an hour ago to count the number of days left.

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Steve Deckert on 09/24/22 at 04:58:09


UPDATE 9/23/22

Tonight it's after 10 P.M. and that ease comes into the sound allowing us to get serious about evaluation... and for a great big bonus the Cryotone 12AU7-WCL Long Plate with gold plated pins came in today.

The day started out 12 hours ago on an off cycle.  I blasted Foreplay and it sounded off, even distorted. For no reason.  After that everything sounded off all day.  Something in the midrange that I didn't like.  At one point I just turned it off.  But after a couple hours I decided to put the new Cryotone tube in the front end, which should have a profound change on the sound over the 5670 that I've been running.

It did.  It was hugely resolute, you could hear things... but the sound was sharper.  Whatever it was that was irritating me was now even worse.  I gave up.  

A few hours later I put a random NOS 12AU7 in from my collection and listened to it again.  Keep in mind all of this is background music while I work.  If I can't get off on it outside the room... no point in going in.

Things were going a lot better now.  For reasons unknown it was listenable again.  Many hours passed and then while chatting with Bob on the phone I realized that the exceptional Russian 5AR4 stash of mine that I have been sending on with new orders, hasn't been tried in the 300B amp.  Well, I knew what I was going to do after we hung up.

So I removed the PSVANE 5AR4 and replaced it with the Russian NOS 5AR4 and I have to say the sound got organic again without any midrange anomalies to wonder about.  Just there.  Relaxed, musical, smooth, warm. So either my head needed a fix, or the Chinese 5AR4 is starting to bring an edge to things.

Amazing sound.  So now that we're back in control and loving it, time to reinsert the Cryotone 12AU7-WCL and see if that magic I heard in it the first time is now balanced with smooth organic round notes... it is.  In fact the sound is better than the 5670 and better than the NOS 12AU7 I just pulled.

With this change I found the urge that was never there previously to tip the baffles back with my pyramids, which give then exactly a 10 degree angle.

This restored if not improved upon the amazing experience I had with my last update. God it just sounds like music. Better even. The combination of the Russian NOS rectifier with a bit more voltage drop is getting the amplifier into it's design pocket of 383 volts and you can hear it.

When music floating in space in the room is so dense you feel like you could chew it, something wonderful is happening.

Amazing the transition from this morning...  I'm going to speculate that it may have been the PSVANE 5AR4 tube acting up.  That is the current suspect.

When it comes to rectifier tubes, never have just one... it is essential to have back ups.

Having this sound is my sanity.  Once you have had it even for a second and know it's possible, nothing less will do.  

This nonsense that 300B tubes are fat, dark, colored, etc., etc., is absurd.  This tube is now as transparent as the UFO25 which uses a video tube with over twice the bandwidth.  I am now wondering why 300B amps got this reputation.   I guess I am experiencing a fully burned in WE300B tube set.  I didn't expect this.  It's proof to me that the graphine coating on the plates is an advancement.  I literally can't hear the tube anymore.  It is completely gone.

Mission accomplished.


Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Lon on 09/24/22 at 12:47:07


Steve Deckert wrote on 09/24/22 at 04:58:09:

:-[
When music floating in space in the room is so dense you feel like you could chew it, something wonderful is happening.


Having this sound is my sanity.  Once you have had it even for a second and know it's possible, nothing less will do.  

I totally understand. After more than four years with the 25th anniversary modded SE84UFO3s and the components upstream I've learned how to use them as a vehicle into this dense magical forest of sound, and even how to navigate all the differing foilage and sunlight patterns within the forest with different tubes and tuning, and it's my sustaining place, my temple.

I'm so glad you have discovered this new window into the 300B tube house of sound. I'm eager to experience it. Well, not impatient as I've my forest to nourish me now. But looking forward.

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by DLM on 09/28/22 at 22:36:15

Is there an update on the SEWE300B chassis...  Do you expect to have one in time and ready for DecFest ?

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Steve Deckert on 10/05/22 at 03:02:08


Regrettably, the chassis is held up in supply chain BS so I haven't even seen one yet.  It has delayed the project by 8 weeks at least.  


Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Steve Deckert on 10/05/22 at 03:56:45


UPDATE 10/4/2022

I have been setting up the room for this years DECFEST and doing some critical listening to three amplifiers that are predominately set up in the room.  These are the SEWE300B as well as the Zen TORII Monos set up on the West End of the room.  On the East End I have the SE84UFO25 and matching preamp CSP325.

Prior to starting this 300B project, I would have described the TORII MONO's as a similar sound to the Zen Triodes but with more hit and clarity at higher levels and or with less efficient speakers. But it was more similar than different on the surface.

I have been really enjoying the odd pairing of the SEWE300B amp turned up as loud as it will go on the 88dB House Speakers.  It just reaches a nice room filling volume with digital.  With Reel to Reel tape and beer it runs out of headroom within minutes.  But that's where the 100dB Zen Master Series baffles save the day.  Makes it sound like you went from 4 watts to 100 watts.

Anyway, I have gotten used to the sound of Sarah on the House Speakers because it is so damn good.  Prior to developing the amp, I used these speakers with the TORII MONO's almost exclusively, but haven't made the direct comparison since starting the project until last night.  I started with the MONO's and marveled at how clean the sound was, but it almost sounded solid state by comparison to what I remember the House Speakers sounding like after months of listening to Sarah on them.

Still, incredibly good, but I was now curious to do a direct comparison with Sarah on these Speakers and with all the speakers on that end of the room.  So I set things up so I could run two systems at the same time and volume match them and use the selector switch on the ZTPRE to go between them.  This revealed that there was a pretty large difference in signature between the two amps.  So then I hooked Sarah Back to the House Speakers directly after listening to them on the Monos and was frankly shocked at how big the difference was.  They sound nothing alike.  Not even close.

The Sarah is just way more seductive, organic, and natural.  The Monos are more like listening to a good solid state amplifier by comparison. More emphasis on dynamics, detail, and cleanness and accuracy whereas Sarah is just more like listening to real music.

So this was my first direct AB between Sarah and another Decware amp where it really hit home.  After this experience I flipped the room and listened to the UFO25 combo on the HDT Silver 8 speakers and it kind of laughed at both, presenting such a present and giant realistic sound that I couldn't hear the amp and therefor can't speak about its sound.  I look forward to doing a direct AB with it soon to really grasp the differences soon.

But, the experience has shown me the Decware 300B sound which is a pretty captivating signature.  I now know it.  I predict that when I get time to have the shootout between this and the UFO25 combo that the UFO will have no signature, so we'll have to focus on sound stage, dynamics, bass drive, and all the other less important stuff that lives in the background.







BTW, Using the Cyrotone 12AU7 for the critical input tube on the SEWE300B amp is even better than the 5670 with adapter.  I have rolled over 20 NOS 12AU7 from my personal collection and the Cryotone won.   I have invited Don and Roger from Cryotone to come a day early to help Randy and I set things up and do some final listening before the fest starts.  I am anxious for them to hear their work in my room to see what they think.

Steve



Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by JBzen on 10/05/22 at 09:38:52


Quote:
I flipped the room and listened to the UFO25 combo on the HDT Silver 8 speakers and it kind of laughed at both, presenting such a present and giant realistic sound that I couldn't hear the amp and therefor can't speak about its sound.


Wow!


Quote:
I look forward to doing a direct AB with it soon to really grasp the differences soon.


Me too...save a seat.

John

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by HockessinKid on 10/07/22 at 14:49:05

46 Sarah 300B's on the wait list que. How many more after this weekends Decfest? Hopefully pricing and options will be revealed next month.

HK

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Eightweight on 10/07/22 at 18:13:25

Please put me on the list for 2  being hopefully in the first 50 300B or Sarah amps  :D
Sent email and called but cannot get reply due to Decfest


Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by CAJames on 10/07/22 at 18:25:43


Quote:
Posted by: Eightweight      Posted on: Today at 18:13:25
Please put me on the list for 2  being hopefully in the first 50 300B or Sarah amps  :D
Sent email and called but cannot get reply due to Decfest


You can order two of any amp to get a place on the list. Then you can call Sarah and change your order to two Sarahs when things settle down.

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Eightweight on 10/07/22 at 18:35:42

Thanks so much for that I already have 2 UFO2’s on order since last December so will call and change them to possibly 2 Sarah’s or 1 Sarah 1 anniversary

I appreciate the post and information

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by DLM on 10/08/22 at 16:57:45

Would love to hear thoughts from ZenFest attendees on the Sarah300B

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by abd1 on 10/08/22 at 17:03:28

agreed. I tuned into the live feed a few times but never saw the sarah hooked up.

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Steve Deckert on 10/10/22 at 17:24:04


The live feed was recorded in its entirety and is on the live stream page available for viewing in 3 hour blocks.

I am pleased to say that around 50 people listened to it, and all seemed to be taken by it so this is good, a little more confirmation.  This was another hardcore test and the amp rose to the challenge.

The chassis for this amp are 2 months overdue due to supply chain issues, so we are anxious to get them and get started.

https://www.decwareproducts.com/livestream

Steve


Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Steve Deckert on 10/10/22 at 17:28:44


Quote:
agreed. I tuned into the live feed a few times but never saw the sarah hooked up.


Sarah was hooked up on the West end of the room. (left side from the camera view) and was almost never unhooked. With the exception of the TORII MONOS and the ZKIT60 that were tried for an hour, Sarah was used on that end of the room for the entire event, so it is easy to revisit the live stream videos and hear it.

Steve

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by abd1 on 10/10/22 at 19:08:13

Thanks for the clarification. I guess the amp I saw wasn't the Sarah -- my mistake.

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by tempest62 on 10/13/22 at 22:27:24


Quote:
Interested where your “50 buck” tube slots in compared to all this high dollar talent.


Does anyone know the source/mfr of this 300B tube?

Brad

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by jec3504 on 10/13/22 at 22:44:13

Brad,

Somewhere in China. Your going to want to buy a whole tube complement. Budget appropriately.

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Lon on 10/13/22 at 22:48:39

It's a Chinese company I think named CNG. This tube as far as I can tell (when Steve first posted about it I did an internet search) is no longer made, and a pair that looked like the same was 200 a pair.

There are a lot of options, a lot of options in 300B. I think in a few years when I have mine I'll start with the WE.

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by tempest62 on 10/13/22 at 23:01:20

Thanks guys.

I’m not going to wait 3 years for the Decware version. I’m going to find another one that could replace the Line Magnetic PP in my second, casual listening system.

I am eyeing however the possibility of the T6 speaker which could replace the Nola Boxer II in the same second system.

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Lon on 10/13/22 at 23:13:14

I can understand that. I'm still going to wait for the Decware for two reasons: I need another amp like a hole in the head and I can comfortably wait; I think that Steve's is going to be very different from others at the price point and beyond--the fact that he has that extra gain stage and that he is only trying to get four (dense) watts out of the 300B is where I think the magic is that will be worth the wait and may supplant my Monoblocks.

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by chapsjon on 10/14/22 at 00:42:21

As a Mini Torii owner, I am curious how the extra gain stage in the Sarah differs from the MT. What Lon describes as 4 dense watts from the Sarah is how I would describe my MT. Anyone know if there has been any listening comparison between the two?

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by tempest62 on 10/14/22 at 01:00:51

Lon, you bring up food for thought. Depending on the price if a Sarah 300B, I can certainly consider the possibility of getting on the list for one and forgetting about it while 3 years of a lesser one would be enjoyed and then sold.

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by tempest62 on 10/14/22 at 01:06:52

Dense watts. I take that to mean full volume with no distortion. Honest watts, not bullshit marketing watts where you turn the volume up 3/4 and it’s pain and misery.

Which brings up a great point about Steve’s great works. All usable, listenable watts. The 4 watts for the Sarah is head and shoulders over another 300B amp rated at 8 watts but only 3 or maybe 4 would be usable and that’s probably pushing it.

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by CAJames on 10/14/22 at 01:20:12


Quote:
Posted by: chapsjon      Posted on: Today at 00:42:21

...As a Mini Torii owner, I am curious how the extra gain stage in the Sarah differs from the MT...


It's really all about the output tube IMO. A 300B tube needs more current so it needs two gain stages in front of it to feed the tube, at least at the operating point that Steve likes. As a practical matter it gives you more input tubes to roll, and that can either be good or bad depending on your outlook.

There are hours of Sarah playing at Decfest you can check out if you want to hear how it sounds, pretty sure no one did a H2H with a MT.



Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Lon on 10/14/22 at 01:39:23

Well we have different hearing. I find just under 3 watts quite manageable and don't use all the headroom, and 4 would be just fine for me. Don't need any more.

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by chapsjon on 10/14/22 at 01:53:31

Thanks for the explanation of current for output tube CAJames. I'm assuming that means that though they both have an extra gain stage, the Sarah needs more than the 1V input that the MT can come to full power with.

I have listened some to Sarah via streaming, but know it isn't a true representation of the in-person sound. Maybe as Sarah reaches production someone will make comparisons, but it seems quite natural to wonder how it compares to both the MT and the Rachael since they are all similar wattage. I was just thinking with extra gain stages, the MT and Sarah may have even more similarity than power.

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Lon on 10/14/22 at 22:39:18

Meanwhile on the Hoffman forum our old member Dancing Sea and an acolyte or two are saying Decware is defrauding customers by asking for a deposit and not being upfront about a terribly long wait list, exercising "illegal" action, and saying that it's "insane" that Steve is developing a new product while he has such a long wait list.

I can see some frustration and some parts of their points but they keep pounding it over and over again. At least Dancing Sea has the sense to stay away from here now.

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by jec3504 on 10/14/22 at 23:08:42

Too bad about DS. Thought he would have new material for his online roasting.

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by tempest62 on 10/14/22 at 23:35:18

Slander. Not cool.

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by CAJames on 10/15/22 at 01:14:20


Quote:
Posted by: tempest62      Posted on: Yesterday at 23:35:18

Slander. Not cool.


Slander is an untrue or defamatory statement spoken orally. Libel is an untrue or defamatory statement in writing. FYI.

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by tempest62 on 10/15/22 at 01:40:52

CA, indeed. Thanks for the correction.

Brad

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by PaulInWA60 on 10/15/22 at 06:33:54

I can't seem to figure out how to quote a previous message but to Brad's question about the $55 300B tube I believe this is probably the one.  I ordered it and I would say it is very good for $55, probably better than a cheap Psvane, but nowhere near as good as my EML XLS or KR 300B tubes.  I am not allowed to post the link on Aliexpress but the store that has them is called Hi-end Tubeaudio Store and the tube is the Guiguang NOS 300B.  There is also a slightly more expensive version called the Guiguang NOS 4300B that I haven't tried.  

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Tony on 10/15/22 at 06:50:58

Thanks for the information, and double thanks for not posting link to Aliexpress.

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Steve Deckert on 10/26/22 at 05:31:12

UPDATE OCT 25th 2022

I finally got our chassis in after being months past due and the silk screen is 1/8 inch off center and the circles and hash marks are all missing.  Not a single contact during this time to explain the delay and now the blame game between painters, screeners, and file formats.  It feels like ordering food from McDonnalds drive through where no human can be at fault for getting your order wrong or the low quality.  We have done business with this Chicago based outfit for over 20 years without any serious problems.  The past two years have been almost unbearable with delays and redues.   Sadly having them re-done is a high risk of getting more of the same and loosing even more time, so I will probably just make these in the classic Decware style of being unmarked.  The layout is intuitive and the clean look may actually look a lot better anyway.


SOUND UPDATE:  

The amp was extensively tested during the show on both days and was very well received.  Even on the small T6 bookshelf speakers the 4 watts captivated the room.  A direct comparison was done in video 2 between the TORII MONO's and the SARAH 300B.  You can find the videos here: https://www.decwareproducts.com/livestream

or here on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLO14X7TvgezjaUgmbHikiAZ90O_c5x8NY


These videos were made with the room mics for the live feed which have no bass response below 50Hz.  I bring that up because the little speakers have bass well below that and was discussed in the last two videos on Youtube.

So soon, I will be diving back into the amplifier to build the first production sample in the new chassis, and then begin the process of breaking it in to compare it against the original prototype.

-Steve


Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by BlackBess on 10/26/22 at 18:01:36

Mr. Deckert, can you tell us if there will be any options for the  Sarah ? There was talk earlier about a coupon for the WE 300B tubes, that would be great if a deal on these tubes is still available in a year or 2 when my turn comes around. In the meantime, do you feel the Cryotone tubes are what I should be running in on my current amp in anticipation to use with my future Sarah? The anticipation I am experiencing towards owning this amp is similar to being staged with the throttle matted on the 2-step waiting on the green. Any crumbs such as only one input? estimated weight or wood choices would be appreciated. As always,

Peace out, Ralph

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Steve Deckert on 10/27/22 at 03:16:44


I can't tell you for sure, but the direction it's leaning is towards the anniversary status where the amp is pimped out as much as it can be so very few options other than types of wood and knobs.

We will have a coupon from Western Electric for a discount on their WE300B tubes for the Sarah 300B amplifier as that is what we built and voiced the amplifier for.

The input tube, driver tubes, regulator tubes, and rectifier will all be premium selected and measured based on listening tests.  These will be included with the amplifier.  As well we will supply an affordable set of Chinese 300B output  tubes to get you started.  They will sound good enough to be the only tube you use, but won't last as long.  The WE300B will sound superior, as would the Cryotone 300B and both will last a lot longer.  Still I expect to get a couple years out of the stock pair which gives you time to save up for the good ones.

The amp will have two inputs and two volume controls.  It is the same size as the SE34I.6 and will be available in all the same woods.

Steve

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Bluemage on 11/05/22 at 21:51:09


Hey, guys, just caught up on the developments after a 5 month hiatus of apathy. My dad got diagnosed with pancreatic cancer (65 y/o) and died 3 weeks later. He was a pharmacist, so I've been busy helping my mom run it and figure out how to sell it. He got me into the audiophile lifestyle decades ago.

About a month before his diagnosis, I introduced him to Decware, told him all about Steve's genius, and sent him multiple 20 page threads to read. He was floored that tubes can be so expensive (WE 300B), but was super excited to learn about SETs, and couldn't wait to hear my Decware Sarah, which is on order.

It really sucks that he'll never get to spin that first record with me, alas, I'm thankful he introduced me to the concept of high fidelity audio. Anyway, it was nice to finally log back in and see what's going on around here. Sounds like the 300b is getting ready for production.

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Lon on 11/05/22 at 22:09:50

My condolences, so sorry that your Dad has passed and so young. My Dad got me interested in music and good sound playback as well. There is so much to be grateful for with a good father. You're a good son helping your Mom out that way. Cherish the memories.

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Bluemage on 11/05/22 at 22:32:45

Thank you, Lon. I thought of you because I remember you endured the loss of your father recently. It's a tough thing, and it's hard to understand until you go through it. Cancer is quite terrifying. The doctors told us that his treatment was aggressive, and that they'd buy him as much time as possible. We were thinking years, then he suddenly died at home. It was quite a blow for all of us.

I ordered all of the Acoustic Sounds Steely Dan one-step reissues in his honor, and will think of him whilst blasting them through my soon-to-be Decware system.

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Lon on 11/05/22 at 22:48:47

Yes, cancer is horrible. My late first wife battled non-Hodgkins lymphoma and MDA for two years and passed fifteen years ago. She had two bone marrow transplants and she was just 52 when she passed. I was certain that we would beat the disease and we lost. Then nearly eight years ago we lost my Mom who was deep in dementia and the only good thing about that was that I had the experience of losing my wife and was able to be some little help to my Dad when he lost his own.

We never know what time we have, and we need to love those we have as strongly as we can while we can.

I'm on the waiting list for a Sarah 300B but have a long wait! Still, eager to hear impressions now.

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Kamran on 11/05/22 at 22:49:33

Bluemage, gutted by this news.  I wish your father could have heard Sarah with you.  May he Rest In Peace.  Please accept my sincerest condolences.

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Bluemage on 11/05/22 at 23:32:21

Man, Lon, you've had a rough go of things. So sorry to hear that.

Thank you so much, Kamran! That means a lot.

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Lon on 11/05/22 at 23:43:50

Yes, I made it through a lot. I've been resilient and learned a lot and feel stronger. Life is a surprising journey and I enjoy as much of it as I can. Love and kindness are what we need to embrace and dish out.

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Same Old DD on 11/06/22 at 00:48:44

Bluemage, I want to extend my condolences as well.
There is little in life that is more impacting than losing a loved one.
Fathers especially, if you are lucky enough to have a great father as many of us seem to have been blessed in that way.

But, the suddenness! I can not imagine how tragic this is for your family.

My dad taught me to appreciate music as well and even after twenty something years now, I still think of him every day and I miss him, more at times, and I often find myself "quoting" things he taught me, best as I can.
He still lives inside me and that is as close as we can be for now.

Good luck getting things settled.






Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Bluemage on 11/06/22 at 06:01:53

Thank you, so much, Same Old. Your words truly comfort me. It's kind of nice to hear from people who've gone through the same thing and understand what it's like. Yes, the suddenness was horrifying. He completed one round of chemo with flying colors, was about to start his second, and was at home with mom. He ate some homemade soup I made him, and was walking back to bed, and just didn't quite make it. Died in my mother's arms about 5 feet from the bed. Tragic. But I know where he is now, and that brings me comfort.

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by HockessinKid on 11/06/22 at 15:35:36

Bluemage,

So sorry to hear you lost your dad, deepest condolences to you and your mother. I lost my dad several years ago and mom a year later. I still think fondly of them each day and the inspiration they provided to all their children.

I hope you work through this difficult transition and find many happy memories to reflect upon over the months to come. Give mom lots of hugs!

HK

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Bluemage on 11/06/22 at 16:57:08

Thank you so much, Hock. Man, that 1-2 blow must have been a bear to deal with! Glad to hear that they're still alive and well in memory and heart!

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Lon on 11/07/22 at 16:01:36

Wow. Over the weekend when I had a chance I rolled tubes in my system again and putting the sextet of 6N5P that Steve tested and matched for me a while back unto the ZTPRE and putting an Amperex 6922 pair in the Monoblocks and an Amperex 12AU7 I found in one of my tube boxes that I don't think I had ever used before into the ZROCK2. . .an amazing presentation arrived, giving me the sonic character I had been seeking and expected the Sarah would bring! The best sound I've ever had at home.

Maybe I don't need a Sarah--we'll see. It's still a long wait but I love these Monoblocks. And I know I will be very tempted to buy the new Mk 2 version of my PS Audio DSD DAC and it may be one or the other.

But there is still a long ways before I have to make a Sarah decision and I am hoping I can do both.

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Bluemage on 11/07/22 at 19:57:39

I hope the silk screen issue is resolved before mine ships. I love the practicality, but also the contrast, which lends itself to an overall pleasing aesthetic. Decware products are inherently minimalistic, so small details like silk screening and cool knobs really stand out.

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Brian on 11/08/22 at 03:42:37

Bluemage, That is exactly how I feel about the silkscreening. I thought it a nice addition, both in looks and usefulness.

Brian

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Bluemage on 11/08/22 at 05:24:28

I'm sure Steve will ship the silk screen folks into shape soon enough!

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Ghostship on 11/08/22 at 10:41:48

For me, the lack of silkscreening is not a deal breaker. I've been waiting patiently for 13 months, I'd prefer my amp sooner without silkscreening than with it at the cost of a few additional months' wait.

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Lon on 11/08/22 at 10:58:29

I agree, silk-screening is something I'd prefer not to have. I even would prefer not to have meters.

The Rachel that this amp uses as a platform is a great bargain. It is so nicely priced even with all the options. I know this amp will not be priced the same, but if there were fewer frills such as the silk-screening and the price were a little lower I'd be happier myself.

But . . . I'll look forward to this amp however it is released. Eager to hear some in home impressions!

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Lon on 11/11/22 at 18:57:28

Anyone have experience with EML 300B tubes to relate?

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by PaulInWA60 on 11/13/22 at 21:06:10

I have EML XLS 300B tubes which are better than my TJ Full Music 300B Mesh but not as good as the Kron KR Balloon 300Bs or the Western Electric 300Bs.  The EML are very dynamic with good separation, bass and treble.  The KR tubes are all of that plus a remarkable holographic soundstage.  The Western Electric are a little less dynamic but they have great tonality and timbre and with my Aric Audio Super 300B amp the best bass.  The Western Electrics are also very smooth and grain free. Unless you find a deal on the EML or KR tubes I think it makes sense to spend a bit more to get the Western Electric.  The five year warranty is worth the difference.

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by CAJames on 11/13/22 at 21:27:59


Quote:
Posted by: PaulInWA60      Posted on: Today at 21:06:10

...The five year warranty is worth the difference.


Has anyone actually read the WE warranty? My understanding is it is prorated, like a tire warranty. If your tube blows up after 4 years and 11 months you don't get a new tube, you get 1/60 of the cost of a tube.

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Lon on 11/13/22 at 21:43:22


PaulInWA60 wrote on 11/13/22 at 21:06:10:
I have EML XLS 300B tubes which are better than my TJ Full Music 300B Mesh but not as good as the Kron KR Balloon 300Bs or the Western Electric 300Bs.  The EML are very dynamic with good separation, bass and treble.  The KR tubes are all of that plus a remarkable holographic soundstage.  The Western Electric are a little less dynamic but they have great tonality and timbre and with my Aric Audio Super 300B amp the best bass.  The Western Electrics are also very smooth and grain free. Unless you find a deal on the EML or KR tubes I think it makes sense to spend a bit more to get the Western Electric.  The five year warranty is worth the difference.

Thank you Paul.

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Steve Deckert on 11/15/22 at 02:49:11


UPDATE 11/14/22

While trying to decide how we're going to handle the silk screen issue, I couldn't wait any more...

So I have built the actual production bench sample.  The production sample is the unit that will be copied when we start building them.  So a lot of pressure to get the layout as sane as it can be.

First, here is the prototype that we've all been listening to all summer and at DECFEST2022...



click to enlarge


Remember this unit has been drastically modified at least 6 times.  And the voltage regulator tubes are on the inside, hardwired to the circuit.

Some of the changes I made include moving the power switch to the back, moving the voltage regulator tubes to the outside, and the voicing switches to the front.

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Steve Deckert on 11/15/22 at 03:04:41



click to enlarge


I also added a delay on circuit that wasn't in the prototype.  Since the 300B are directly heated, they conduct current almost instantly. Meanwhile the rest of the tubes are slowly coming to life and making little pops and crackles as they warm up. First I fixed this by simply using a 5AR4 rectifier, but as luck would have it, the one I choose had a slower start up time than most so it worked perfectly and none of the rest did. So then I just hand picked tubes that were quiet during start up. However when it came time to tube roll this idea went out the window too.

There will also be custom Decware meters for this amplifier. The ones that are in the sample here are just place holders. And the silkscreen is on the inside because it was off center. Turns out it makes it easier for the techs to have it labeled where they can read it : )




Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Steve Deckert on 11/15/22 at 03:09:15





click to enlarge


Using inexpensive 300B tubes for initial testing ; )

Steve




Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Steve Deckert on 11/15/22 at 03:09:33





click to enlarge






Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by morp on 11/15/22 at 03:23:08

Beautiful

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by JBzen on 11/15/22 at 12:48:52

Very nice Steve. I like the move with the VR tubes. Also moving the "favoring" circuits closer to the input tube is better IMO. Plus it looks like the heater is delayed to the input tube? Another good move in spite of the necessity.

I am so tempted to give Sarah a call and order one up but 3 years is much, I mean much to long of a time giving me a chance to change my mind. Never know what the future will bring! It would be like throwing my arms up in despair of my journey in audio reproduction.

John

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by BlackBess on 11/15/22 at 15:09:38


Any chance of a “real flame” look for the Sarah in a couple of years?
Earlier in this thread I saw that a 5670 tube was used (I think), was a WE396a tried?
 Thanks, your buddy dawg, Ralph

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Kamran on 11/15/22 at 16:46:13

Steve, will there be an option for balanced XLR inputs on Sarah if one is running a fully balanced DAC? I think you have previously mentioned that Sarah can impress without a pre involved in the chain, which we saw in action at Decfest. Therefore, I’ve been contemplating getting rid of my preamp when (hopefully) Sarah ships next year. Just upgraded to the Holo Audio Spring 3 KTE, which is a brand that you are intimately familiar with and was thinking whether there is any sonic merit to using XLR vs RCA out going into Sarah?

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by CAJames on 11/15/22 at 18:52:49


Quote:
Posted by: Kamran      Posted on: Today at 16:46:13
Steve, will there be an option for balanced XLR inputs on Sarah if one is running a fully balanced DAC?


JMO but I think you are better off with a ZBIT than balanced inputs on your amp. It is very close pricewise and gives you the flexibility of putting it anywhere in the signal chain, should you decide to get e.g. a CSP3 type preamp in the future. Also, the ZBIT has gain control while I don't think the input on the amp does.

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Steve Deckert on 11/15/22 at 19:06:36



Quote:
Steve, will there be an option for balanced XLR inputs on Sarah if one is running a fully balanced DAC? I think you have previously mentioned that Sarah can impress without a pre involved in the chain, which we saw in action at Decfest. Therefore, I’ve been contemplating getting rid of my preamp when (hopefully) Sarah ships next year. Just upgraded to the Holo Audio Spring 3 KTE, which is a brand that you are intimately familiar with and was thinking whether there is any sonic merit to using XLR vs RCA out going into Sarah?


The ZBIT is the option for using balanced XLR with Sarah.

The Holo Audio products seem to have equally good output from either the XLR to the RCA.  Even the CXNv2 that I used at the fest didn't suck.  It was using RCA directly into Sarah.


Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Steve Deckert on 11/15/22 at 19:12:57


Hi BlackBess,

We won't be offering it that way, with the custom paint, however at some point in the future we might do one and auction it off.  I have Denis, my senior tech who retired earlier this year who is interested in building these fancy paint job amps at home in his spare time.  We've already done two so far.  I plan to keep that gig going as long as he wants to stay busy.  So some day you may see one.  Make sure you are on our customer appreciation list.  You can find it on the contacts page:  https://www.decwareproducts.com

-Steve


Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Kamran on 11/16/22 at 01:17:50

Thanks Steve and CAJames for your input. Something to consider.  I’m also trying to simplify the signal path and was thinking of adding the ZROCK2 in the future.  Adding the ZBIT now ads one more item in the chain (and more cables).  Wondering how many ppl use both the ZBIT and ZROCK in the chain….

As per Holo’s description— The output voltage is 2.9 Vrms for single ended output and 5.8 Vrms for balanced output—so that’s why I was wondering if I was leaving anything on the table by going single ended.

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Joey on 11/16/22 at 01:37:50

I have both zbit and zrock with se84ufo2 and using the Pontus2. I long for nothing more and nothing less, it's perfect!

I think the zrock likes 4 volts or less input.

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Bluemage on 11/16/22 at 01:47:17

Looking awesome, Steve. Will the screening be white or black? I can't wait to receive this beast.

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Steve Deckert on 11/16/22 at 02:13:10


UPDATE - FATHER MURPHY

Murphy's Laws were drafted after Murphy died.  It's a list.  There are several versions of it on the Internet.  The one I grew up with said for example; Rule # 7 - Any tool dropped while working on a car in your garage will automatically roll to the exact dead center of the vehicle so as to become out of reach from all four sides.

The set up - it takes one.  It's what pages Father Murphy who is now an evil spirit who especially likes to mess with audiophiles.  So the set up is this...

I made an assembly video of the amplifier being built for the newer techs on our team.  This of course means I have to make it without mistakes... this was the first ring.  Naturally long before it was even finished, a mistake was made and filmed.  I put in a 47K resistor where a 100K resistor goes.  I decided to leave it in the video as a teaching tool.  At the same time I bragged in the video about how I measure everything as I go, so I found it right away.  This was the second ring.  Then I realized if they watch the video without listening to my important commentary they would build the amp with the wrong resistor at which point I would know they didn't listen to the video.  This is playing chess with Father Murphy.  Score Father Murphy zero, Steve one.  This was the third ring.

Not to foreshadow or anything but never play chess with evil spirits.

When firing up the amp for the first time, I checked all the voltages and they were perfect.  I smiled.  This was ring number four, and Father Murphy one, Steve one or so I was about to find out.

I put the amplifier on the scope and couldn't get any kind of substantial output from it.  Like a half a watt, yet everything was working perfect. This is how I know the ringing had been answered.  He's awake, he's here now, and this is where the punishment starts.

I noticed that I forgot to connect the input jacks to ground.  That was of course because I had already posted a picture in the forum before the amp actually worked.  Father Murphy two, Steve one.

I fixed the jack and took new pictures so I can fix the video, and it makes perfect sense why I couldn't get a signal out of it since there wasn't really a signal going into it.

Lesson one, Murphy NEVER works in single shots. If he has to show up to your gig, you can bet it's going to be worth his time as pure entertainment.  I imagine it is the same satisfying feeling that I used to get when I was five and used to tease my younger brother about pooping his pants.  It was so much fun.

I hook everything back up and virtually nothing has changed.  This seemed impossible by I remember he works in threes, so I just started looking for problems.  Damn, this means real troubleshooting.  I quickly discover that the signal going through the stages is but a fraction of what is should be and find out it's a partial short to ground at the input of the amplifier, which is in mono due to the scope and signal generator being hooked up to both channels, so the problem was on both sides.  This whole thing was impossible.  Literally I had to start taking things apart... could it be a bad input switch, or cable, or something I can't see in one of the jacks?

After taking everything apart I determined it was actually the cable, the brand new perfectly installed cable had an 80 ohm short.   I completely removed it and measured it again, and it was fine.  Murphy three, Steve one.

I re-installed it to see if I was loosing my mind and measured it again.  80 ohms to ground.  I should have known, Cables is one of Muphy's favorite tools of torment.  When a cable starts to go bad it either opens or shorts, and does it intermittently.  Since the cable is flexible, it depends on how it is bent as to if it will work right or not.  Murphy four, Steve one.

The cable was something different I found laying on my bench.  It looks like the excellent cable we normally use on the outside, but has only one conductor and is built more like a coax.  I couldn't see any reason why it wouldn't work as well or better so I used it.

Now with the one bad cable removed there was only the other side to investigate and it had a similar issue of about 150 ohms to ground.  I removed it and replaced it with our regular cable to match the first side. Murphy five, Steve one.

The odds of two cables doing this just from being soldered into place (by someone who can solder) is pretty high. Murphy six, Steve one.

And for the check mate, I wired the 12AU7 as a 6922 so that only half of the heater worked.  So that's on the video too.  Murphy seven, Steve one.

This is another excellent testimony of why big manufactures use circuit boards with cable connectors.  Make it so a monkey can't screw it up and they'll all probably work the first time.

Anyway, I wrote this true story to make myself look bad so he would leave.  That's how it works.   Now it is time to test the amp and see if it works.


Steve






Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Steve Deckert on 11/16/22 at 02:46:00

UPDATE PART 2

Well it turns out this spiritual encounter was nested.  As usual I was just a pawn in a greater game ; ). The bench sample puts out 7 watts.  I measured it the same as before, by how far it can go until it reaches 3% distortion.





click to enlarge







The Audio Gods had a vested interest in this and decided to have the last word by doing something that appears to be equally impossible.  Probably laughed at Murphy and said: "You dumbass, all you can do is make shit break and make people miserable.  Let's see you do this" : )




Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Steve Deckert on 11/16/22 at 02:55:11


Not that I really care all that much if it's 4 watts or 7 watts, what gets me excited is what's happening at 1 watt, which is where we all listen.

Check this out...  at one watt the distortion is 0.3%














That's the calling card of the Audio Gods...

So why the discrepancy between two supposedly identical amps?  Well, I may have used my General Instruments 1840-A to measure it the first time, which is an inductive load using transformers... but it's not a 3 watt difference, so there is some magic to figure out.




Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by CAJames on 11/16/22 at 03:22:32

Murphy is an optimist.

James' corollary to Murphy's law.

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Steve Deckert on 11/16/22 at 04:01:49


Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Steve Deckert on 11/16/22 at 04:03:06




Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Steve Deckert on 11/16/22 at 04:05:07




click to enlarge



Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by JBzen on 11/16/22 at 10:30:11


Quote:
Murphy is an optimist.


Keeping our ego in check [smiley=tunes29.gif]

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Lon on 11/16/22 at 13:37:15

Looks as if you may be using 75C1 tubes there (an 0A2 variant)? Those are cool sounding tubes--Will and I have used them, I'm using a pair in my Monoblocks currently.


Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Steve Deckert on 11/21/22 at 04:58:23


Yes, I plan to ship the amp with 75C1 tubes which are equal to the OC2 tubes.  These are both 75V tubes, which in the way that I use them, means a voltage drop of 75 volts.  The internal tubes in the prototype amp are SG5B that have a drop of around 150 volts.  

This means that this new bench sample using the 75C1 tubes has 65 more volts on both the driver and input stage.  This is what made the power go up on the amplifier from 4 to 7 watts.

As well, the sound of the amp changed and became more neutral, cleaner.  Another step closer to the UFO25 sound.  Using an OD3A tube would put the signature back to where it is in the prototype with the internal SG5B tubes.  Like the UFO25, rolling these regulator tubes is going to be a powerful voicing tool.  It would be possible to use 75 volt VR tubes in combination with 150 volt VR tubes.  For example, using one on the driver tubes and a different type on the input tube.

So I am just enjoying the sound of it.  Tonight I am running a Linali 274B rectifier and Cryotone 12AU7 long plate input tube.

On a side note, I still can't find anything better sounding to my ears than the Cryotone input tube, and I have found this to be happening on all the Decware amps.  Once I roll a Cryotone into the input position, it ends up staying there because I can't find anything to beat it.  The input tube on basically all tube gear, has the most gain so it also often has the most effect on the sound of the amplifier or preamp.





Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Steve Deckert on 11/21/22 at 05:05:12


This is the Sarah 300B Logo.  It will live on the power transformer so it can be seen from a distance.






Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Steve Deckert on 11/21/22 at 05:05:28





Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Kamran on 11/21/22 at 05:07:12

Fantastic touch, this!

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Steve Deckert on 11/21/22 at 05:07:21





Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Kamran on 11/21/22 at 05:27:55

Steve,

Can you remind me— What was the total harmonic distortion at 1 watt in the prototype at Decfest? Trying to compare and understand the difference with the new and successful tweaking of late.

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Steve Deckert on 11/21/22 at 05:32:53


UPDATE 11/20/2022

I have abandoned the time delay relay on the high voltage idea because I can't snub out all of the contact arc that creates a pop through the loudspeakers when the relay closes.  Actually, I can but it's not the simple capacitor/resistor/diode trick and ends up getting complicated, many additional parts, and tedious and expensive.

The only reason for this was to mute the tiny clicks and pops of some 6N6P tubes and others as they warm up and start to work.  Putting relay contacts on the high voltage even if it was simple and worked perfectly still gives me worries. The relay contacts or relay itself will eventually fail and before it does it will be compromised further degrading the sound.  Even brand new I didn't care for what it did to the sound.  That is like the most critical part of the amplifier circuit and even running too long of a wire can ruin or at least diminish the sound quality, so you can see why contacts of a relay are a gamble.

I have finally figured out a way to deal with this harmless issue of clicks and pops with certain tubes during warmup -- without putting anything into the signal path.  I consider the B+ a crucial part of the signal path.  So I realized if I short the speaker jacks for 10 seconds during startup there is nothing in the signal path, the amp is well protected, and objective is realized.  So there will be two relays, one for each channel that simply keep the output jacks shorted when the amplifier is off.  Without high voltage on the contacts there is little reason to fail, and if one or both did fail, the amplifier would continue to function perfectly to the point that unless you have tubes that are noisy on warm up, you would never even know.


Steve


Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Steve Deckert on 11/21/22 at 05:51:47


Quote:
Steve,

Can you remind me— What was the total harmonic distortion at 1 watt in the prototype at Decfest? Trying to compare and understand the difference with the new and successful tweaking of late.


I measured it originally into an 8 ohm inductive load and at 1 watt it was closer to 1%.  This recent measurement I did of the newer amp is into the standard 8 ohm resistive load.  I measured the original amp dozens of times into the resistive load as well, just don't remember the exact numbers.


Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by JBzen on 11/21/22 at 11:08:16

The reliability of Sarah is being trusted to a cheap timing circuit of a NC relay? I hope this does not backfire on Decware. I've have found timing relays not work because associated timing circuits failing, broken contact supports, and opened coils. Also, some failed with stuck contacts.

My observations.

John

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Lon on 11/21/22 at 11:47:39


Steve Deckert wrote on 11/21/22 at 04:58:23:

Yes, I plan to ship the amp with 75C1 tubes which are equal to the OC3 tubes.  These are both 75V tubes, which in the way that I use them, means a voltage drop of 75 volts.  The internal tubes in the prototype amp are SG5B that have a drop of around 150 volts.  

Thanks--those are nice tubes, I use them now as replacement for 0C2 tubes in my SE84UFO3 Monoblocks (under the chassis). Does this mean these could be rolled with 0A2 and 0B2 tubes?

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Tony on 11/21/22 at 15:05:17

I was unfamiliar with the 75C1 tube until mentioned by Steve.  A quick search revealed its scarcity, at least in the US markets.  Does anyone have a source for this tube?

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Lon on 11/21/22 at 15:13:12

Over the years I have purchased three pairs from eBay.

It's an interesting tube. Some years back when I was using a Torii a mention of the tube by Will led me to experiment with it. My take is that it has a tiny bit darker sound than the other 0C2 types I had used, yet quite a transparent, lively sounding tube.

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Steve Deckert on 11/21/22 at 16:45:27



Quote:
The reliability of Sarah is being trusted to a cheap timing circuit of a NC relay? I hope this does not backfire on Decware. I've have found timing relays not work because associated timing circuits failing, broken contact supports, and opened coils. Also, some failed with stuck contacts.


I think you need to re-read my post #630. : )

Steve

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Tony on 11/21/22 at 17:29:53

Hey Lon, I found a US source with eBay - thanks.  Then, of all places, I found it on the Decware website as well.  One of those "right under your nose" things.

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Lon on 11/21/22 at 19:21:20

Well. . . what a ya know! ;) I just saw them there myself.



Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Kamran on 11/22/22 at 05:15:00

Thanks Steve for the THD stats. It appears (to state the obvious) that Sarah is now both objectively and subjectively better compared to the close to final prototype we heard at Decfest last month. Exciting!

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by JBzen on 11/22/22 at 07:19:36

Hey Steve, I did take another pass at #630. I got what your saying about reliability issues related to different electrical strain on the contacts. Also, was not aware of delayed B+ voltaged as a fix to eliminate tiny crackles at start up of Sarah. Good move away from that circuit!

A little background from my point of view might clarify the point of response I made.

This year the motorhome needed a transfer switch replaced. The one it replaced was over 20 years old. There is a timing relay in these devices so when generator power is initiated the transfer switch holds the generators feed 7 seconds for motor stability before applying a load. That part of the failed switch still worked flawlessly. The transfer relay it what failed. The coil of that relay to be more precise opened up.

I replaced the transfer switch. 2 weeks later the new switch failed. It was replaced. One week later it failed! Why? The timing circuit failed twice in short order. When questioned it seemed that the supplier was a bit frustrated with this particular brand of switch. Long story short, instead of going though the hassle of replacing the entire transfer switch again, I just rewired the old timing board from the failed switch into the new. Still working after 6 months.

So my point is bad batches of timing switchs are possible and therefore my response.

I say let Sarah crackle like a cozy fire as a signature. Supply an external device to short the speakers at start up for those who may get bitchy about it. Or, just a simple switch that can be used as an owner option. IMO of course.

John

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Lon on 11/22/22 at 17:16:03

Over on the Hoffman forum Decware is getting insulted and practically laughed at on a thread about the 300B amp. I have been trying to defend and fend off with little success. Sigh. I just feel sorry for those who close their mind to the possibilities of sound we can enjoy because of Steve's vision and hard work.

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Dr3wman on 11/22/22 at 17:24:30

A lot of the people on that forum are a bunch of bitter bettys.  Not as bad as the ASR forums though.

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Lon on 11/22/22 at 17:32:56

Agreed. I just hate to see the ignorance and viciousness and lies.

But in this here and now I should expect it.

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by CAJames on 11/22/22 at 17:45:12


Quote:
Posted by: Lon      Posted on: Today at 17:32:56

Agreed. I just hate to see the ignorance and viciousness and lies.


Is this your first day on the internet?

I mean sure, but they are only hurting themselves and realistically the waiting list doesn't need any more help.

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Lon on 11/22/22 at 18:00:37

No it's not my first day. I was neither surprised nor naive. I just hate them calling Steve an amateur with sloppy workmanship and some sort of evil money-grubber for charging a deposit on a long wait list.


Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Kahuna Jack on 11/22/22 at 20:22:42

CAJames says" Is this your first day on the internet ?"

ongoing online keyboard bickering is like arguing with a crazy person at a bus stop ( my fave brand is better than your fave brand stuff)

all that time people could be spending time listening to music on whatever their preferred choice of gear is . life is short .

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Ghostship on 11/23/22 at 11:07:38

Lon,

Some of those people were on this forum and polluted the earlier pages of this thread and others. I am very glad they are no longer on this forum...I have no time in my life for ridiculous nonsense like that, and certainly won't be spending any of it on that other forum.

Michael

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Lon on 11/23/22 at 11:27:12

It is nonsense. My biggest involvement on that forum is on a thread I created for discussing jazz. . . but when Decware is mentioned I check in and I have been doing what I can to at least correct misinformation. Which just stirs things up but at least injects some reality.

We know how good we have it and how talented and searching Steve is with his designs and layouts and builds. It certainly is not common knowledge.

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Same Old DD on 11/23/22 at 13:56:43

That's kind of like my exposure to the Hoffman site these days.
I check out jazz news, any Beatles remaster news, contact with a couple of (additionally, fed up) old timers, but very rarely do I even glance at equipment BS those folks post about. Most of that is either nonsense, hearsay or flat out BS from people who have no clue as to what they are talking about.

That place has lost my interest as well.

Popped in here for a few minutes yesterday and THIS place was a little pissy.
Puts me off. And, I'm not weak or milquetoasty!

Even though I have been around this site for about eighteen years, I still think of these as some of my early days.
I am just getting to the point, with my new situation this year, where I can enjoy and appreciate more of what is here for all.

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by JBzen on 11/25/22 at 15:45:47


Quote:
This year the motorhome needed a transfer switch replaced. The one it replaced was over 20 years old. There is a timing relay in these devices so when generator power is initiated the transfer switch holds the generators feed 7 seconds for motor stability before applying a load. That part of the failed switch still worked flawlessly. The transfer relay it what failed. The coil of that relay to be more precise opened up.

I replaced the transfer switch. 2 weeks later the new switch failed. It was replaced. One week later it failed! Why? The timing circuit failed twice in short order. When questioned it seemed that the supplier was a bit frustrated with this particular brand of switch. Long story short, instead of going though the hassle of replacing the entire transfer switch again, I just rewired the old timing board from the failed switch into the new. Still working after 6 months.


After writing the above, the thought came across of it's incomplete message.

The transfer switch that went bad was actually a companion switch used in series with the original factory installed transfer switch. The companion switch is used to safeguard protect an inverter that supplies 110vac from a 12v battery bank. It is always bypassing the inverter circuit when either grid power or generator power is supplied. The motor home is always plugged into the grid when idle so the companion transfer switch is on 24/7 all year long. To be clear the timing circuit is in continuous use and the new timing board is not up to the task. Most likely engineered for intermitted use in a short use application. So be careful in selection of a timing switch.

John

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Steve Deckert on 11/26/22 at 01:44:34


We will use quality stuff no worries.  But in the event of a failure the speaker jacks simply won't be muted, so unless you have noisy tubes during start up you would never know if it did fail.

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Steve Deckert on 12/05/22 at 01:07:00


UPDATE 12/4/2022

In trying to solve the startup clicks and pops with certain tubes I got side tracked with delay on relays that became complicated and expensive.  Then I greatly improved the idea with a low voltage relay to short the speaker jacks during start up.  

This weekend I had an idea of how to solve the problem by loading the VR tubes differently.  I was able to eliminate the relays and power to drive them with a simple resistor.  That's a lot more Zen, I am a much happier.  The amplifier is now completed.

I am very pleased with the final result.  If you recall when I started this project I was a little concerned what other 300B amps would sound like... I am now at a place where I could care less what other 300B amps sound like.  I was concerned because I was worried what would happen if similarly priced 300B amps sound better.  Now I seriously doubt they will sound as good.  

I'll be working on the final pricing over the holidays.  The amp will be online for sale in January.

-Steve




Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Steve Deckert on 12/05/22 at 01:21:05


That leaves only one thing left... the base design.

Because this amplifier uses a rather large choke, it will not fit in our normal wood bases, despite the amp being the same dimensions as the SE34I.6 and TORII JRv2.



In our normal wood bases, a hole has to be cut out so that the choke will fit.  So you can see how this could be a pain in the ass and if it's going to be a pain in the ass, we may as well just design a new wood base that fits.

Naturally because the new base will be taller and that will ultimately change the profile, I have been pondering a new design.  I created a new profile for the Zen Triode Anniversary Amplifier to distinguish it from the rest of the line, and since this amp has been built to that same standard it too should have it's own profile.

I spent days thinking about a new design, and hours in my wood shop doing sketches and it became apparent in the process that I was going to just have to give it my best guess, make one and then put the amp in it and see if it looks good.

I wanted something contemporary but with more mass and shape like the black figured base shown above.  





Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Steve Deckert on 12/05/22 at 01:29:19


Something we've never done with a wood base for our amplifiers is make one thicker than 3/4 inch. The exception is the black moulded base, but that is a 3/4 base with moulding wrapped around it. This time I thought I would start with 2 inch solid hardwood and so the journey begins.  Below is the profile I came up with.




Instead of a 5/16 to 3/8 lip around the top, I went with 1/2 inch to make it more meaty.



Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Steve Deckert on 12/05/22 at 01:34:16


I stained it dark so I could study the silhouette when it's on the rack in my listening room with the amp in it.  Here you can see the 1/2 inch wide lip around the top.




Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Steve Deckert on 12/05/22 at 01:40:37


It didn't look terrible out here in the light, but be careful what you wish for... it's got mass alright!  It draws all your attention away from the amplifier to the base.

At this stage the only place I can see it looking right is in an 18th century stone castle with high ceilings and 4 inch thick oak doors.

Nevertheless I tried to get used to it for a bit, and took it in the listening room where it looked way worse.   I decided the top lip is too wide, the top 27 degree face is too long, the 90 degree face is too short and the base is overall too wide. That's not too many things...





Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Steve Deckert on 12/05/22 at 01:45:55


The only reason I am posting about the base is because this is a design journal -- and the process of creating a wood base is part of the design.  People want to see the whole process of the amp design, mistakes along the way and so on.

I will say that staining it with a dark but ugly finish was very helpful in helping me study the profile.  The finish was so ugly I tried to find solace in the shape but after staring at it in the dimly lit listening room it was just too much.  Now with my list of observations about what is wrong with it, it is time to fix it.

I will simply address each point and bring it back in and try again.




Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Lon on 12/05/22 at 01:58:43

Eventually it will look nice, I'm sure of it, and be distinctive. And cost more. ;) It's going to be quite an amp!

I read through a lot of this development thread today and the conclusions you came to about its character and presentation were exciting. It was described just how I would want it to be. Wow, this is going to be something.

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Steve Deckert on 12/05/22 at 01:59:40


So here the replacement.  I knew in the wood shop that it was probably going to be right, so here is it with all the points addressed.





Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Steve Deckert on 12/05/22 at 02:02:40






Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Steve Deckert on 12/05/22 at 02:12:53


Here is a shot of it in the listening room...



click to enlarge




click to enlarge


This is African Padauk.  We should be able to do it in all the normal hardwoods.  

Sarah would have kicked my ass if I had let the other one slide through!  Next time you see this amplifier it will most likely be on the web site.

Now I get to listen for awhile : )

Steve




Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Steve Deckert on 12/05/22 at 02:23:25





click to enlarge

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Lon on 12/05/22 at 02:37:21

"So many rectifiers, so little time."

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Steve Deckert on 12/05/22 at 02:54:17



click to enlarge



Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Brian on 12/05/22 at 03:08:42

I like the base the way it appears in reply 654. The upside down picture. That is elegant!

Brian

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Kamran on 12/05/22 at 04:13:50

I was hoping for a late Sunday update and you delivered.  And then some!

Love the new signature look of the 300b wood base.  Can’t wait for it to go online so we can view different wood finish options, though I have to say it does look gorgeous in African Padauk.

Congrats Steve—-what a journey! You must be a proud papa!

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Bluemage on 12/05/22 at 05:12:14

That's one meaty UNIT!

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by HockessinKid on 12/05/22 at 11:47:34

Damn, I was hoping for a ruby studded platinum base for the 300B😂. Great work on the new base design Steve. She's a real beauty for sure, worthy of a special reveal party complete with champagne.

HK

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Dominick on 12/05/22 at 12:26:49

Steve,

All I can say is wow !!  The beveled edge on all four sides really shows off the stature of the amp.  Roll out the red carpet and pull up in the Rolls Royce….this beauty is ready for the proper unveiling!!

Dom

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Kahuna Jack on 12/05/22 at 19:22:35

beautiful looking base ! I loved the larger one too , in fact Ive been "doodling" a bit for awhile now trying to come up with an over sized base design for my other Decware pieces to "jive" better with large base Idler drive turntables. TD124, 301's , Lenco etc .

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Lon on 12/06/22 at 00:06:36


Steve Deckert wrote on 12/05/22 at 02:23:25:





click to enlarge


My new laptop desktop.

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Steve Deckert on 12/11/22 at 05:48:25


UPDATE 12/10/2022

I have the amplifier priced and am now starting to work on the web page.

The following are introductory prices.

The amplifier without tubes will be $4128.00

With my hand selected tube compliment tested in the amp driving lower cost $150.00 300B tubes will put the price around $4758.00

With my hand selected tube compliment minus the $150 low cost 300B tubes and the anticipated coupon from Western Electric it should be possible to get into this amplifier with the Western Electric WE300B tubes for around $5958.00

Whohoo! I can finally stop thinking about that for awhile!

I am going to offer this amp fully pimped out meaning it was designed from the ground up with fully anniversary mods, chassis and hardware. It has been built to the same anniversary standard as the SE84UFO25.

There will be no choices except perhaps the VR tubes that you want.  The OA2 for more relaxed sound favoring high efficiency speakers, or OC2 for more neutral and cleaner sound favoring less efficient speakers.  I have both of these New Old Stock VR tubes on hand.

So now my attention shifts to the web page.





click to enlarge


Here is a teaser photo from the page.  It's Sarah taking a picture of Sarah.





Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Lon on 12/11/22 at 06:27:36

Great Steve! Now you have that figured out and I'm sure a part of you relaxed a bit. I like that I can purchase one without tubes as I have plenty of the tubes available in different brands and types. And I can maybe start out with the WE 300B tubes.

Looking forward to the web page and manual!

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by HockessinKid on 12/11/22 at 17:49:15

Steve,

Thanks for the Sarah pricing information and options. Looks like all the bases are covered. Best wishes as you begin the builds on this new amplifier.

HK

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by PDXDrew on 12/11/22 at 20:38:22

That is awesome.

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Geno on 12/11/22 at 21:09:40

OMG! My new screensaver is Sarah’s reflection in the tube :-*

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Lon on 12/11/22 at 23:45:12

An amazing photo. I can't use it as a screen saver. . .not unless I want to sleep in the dog house.

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Kamran on 12/12/22 at 00:06:31

Talk about the proverbial mic drop with Sarah’s reflection in the rectifier tube. Wow—what a stroke of genius!

I think the pricing structure is very fair.  A tubeless option will be cheered by many who already have the requisite tubes and or who just want to go their own way of selecting tubes.  That said, I’m definitely going for Steve’s hand selected option.  Not sure if I am going to start with the WE300 just yet—I can always upgrade later and that way, I will have a spare fallback pair (but then I miss the discount).  Let’s see how much I can save up in the meantime.  I also need to revisit the thread and refresh my memory on how the $150 tubes fared against WE.

Looking forward to more information on the website soon.

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by CAJames on 12/12/22 at 01:07:24

Re: website, I'm curious to see if it goes above or below the UFO25...

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by BlackBess on 12/12/22 at 04:43:15

$5958 is less than the figure I used sw Pa. math to cypher out, in@.
Decked out Decware 300B amp, $5000
WE 300B matched pair, $1500, less coupon, maybe $1350
So, $6350 was the number I was thinking, if not more by the time my turn comes up. With luck, I’ll be receiving some Wathen 300B’s to try out in my Willy at weeks end & an amp with a quad of WE 300B’s next month to hold me over till my dance with Sarah can begin. 300B amps just seem to be something special in general, but I can’t wait to hear the Decware, though I know I must.
 Best wishes to all, Ralph


Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Steve Deckert on 12/13/22 at 04:35:11


click to enlarge



I have been enjoying the finished product and just doing some listening that in turn has solved the dilemma of the VR tubes.  As you know it can use 3 different ones and there are three.  One does the 12AU7 input tube and the other two handle the 6N6P driver tubes.

I've been listening to the lusher sounding OA2 which is closest to the prototype and the OC2/75C1 to get a feel for the range of voicing this is going to impart on the amplifier.  There is a 75 volt difference between the two tubes.  OB2 which is also compatible falls right in the middle.

If we just had two, the OA2 and the OC2 there would be four ways to set it up and listen.  

1) all three OC2
2) all three OA2
3) two OC2 for drivers one OA2 for input
4) two OA2 for drivers one OC2 for input

I have spent the past week evaluating all four and thought I might be letting people choose between three OC2 or three OA2.  This would mean trying to explain it, emails, phone calls, people trying to choose which one, just headaches for everyone.  

Tonight I have discovered that option 4 is the secret bullet, so the amp when purchased with tubes will be shipping with two OA2 and one 75C1 which is the same as an OC2. I have located and purchased four hundred N.O.S. OA2 and just over one hundred 75C1.

The web page is started and now the dreaded owners manual...





 




Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Lon on 12/13/22 at 10:19:30

Interesting. . .I enjoy rolling VR tubes and have all three types on hand, actually several brands of each, and I'll try your "sweet spot" combo first when I have the amp. It's amazing what a difference these tubes make in these revealing circuits. Yet another thing to look forward to!

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Lon on 12/14/22 at 12:54:49

Ralph, I'm looking forward to your impressions of the two tube brands, or not. . . as obsessing about this amp is becoming my go to obsession of late.

My wife caught me looking at the (photoshopped) image in your post and said "so that's why you post in this forum all the time!" I assured her that Sarah rarely posts here and that Sarah and I are both happily married! ;)

I'm so interested in the 300B that I have this idea that I am going to try to have it fully paid for before it is built and shipped, instead of charging it and paying it off. . . I may put my CSP2+ with ALL the Anniversary Mods up for sale and my Taboo Mk III with all the Anniversary mods as well. (I just don't see myself parting with my SE84UFO3 Monoblocks ever unless I need to eat or pay Uncle Sam!) I've thought of anything that I can sell. . . haven't thought of guitars and basses yet but that may come! This is going to be one helluvan amp, I just know.

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Kamran on 12/14/22 at 13:45:17

Steve: Good call on not providing choices for rolling VR tubes.  Removes angst.  People can experiment on their own later on.

Lon: I’m with you on the obsession.  My biggest nightmare is one of these days, I’m going to mutter ‘Sarah’ in my sleep, my significant other will hear it, and I’m going to have a lot of explaining to do….

I’ve already started my monthly installments.  I prefer to have it paid off before it ships.  It’s kind of an indirect way to get 0% financing. Sarah (the real Sarah) can hook you up.

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Lon on 12/14/22 at 13:53:08

LOL on the talking in your sleep. Fortunately in my household it is my wife who talks (laughs, sings, shouts!) in her sleep. Also Fiona, our miniature red dachshund. . . she barks softly on occasion in her sleep.

I already do have money down on the amp, about a third, thanks. Just have to come up with the other two thirds in this next year.

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Showme on 12/14/22 at 16:15:58

What’s the real wait time on this amp? Anybody guess? I’m too old for 3 years.

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Tony on 12/14/22 at 16:23:58

Quote:

With my hand selected tube compliment minus the $150 low cost 300B tubes and the anticipated coupon from Western Electric it should be possible to get into this amplifier with the Western Electric WE300B tubes for around $5958.00

Curious, I searched for a recent listing of Steve's "hand-selected tubes."  Found various references for individual tubes but not a complete list. Has anyone seen one?

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Lon on 12/14/22 at 16:26:33

The most recent statement I've seen from Steve is "1.5 to 2 years" for a wait list.

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by BlackBess on 12/14/22 at 16:27:04

Mr. Lonson; I wouldn’t count on my opinion to be of much help in the sound quality of these tubes once I have experienced them. I find myself just enjoying music in itself. Just yesterday I was listening to an old Shanling amp with old JAN GE 5670s & Tung Sol 7581A’s & thought to myself “ this music is really cooking big time”.  I was enjoying the “music”. But as I listened I realized the percussion was there, but didn’t sound right. This was playing through some old JBL’s. So I switched to my 300B Willy (also a Chinese amp)& Forte IV’s & it sounded more lifelike. And I said to myself “that’s the ticket” but the fact was I really enjoyed the music in itself no matter the actual quality of the sound. I think if I’ve heard something enough my mind will help fill in the blanks. BTW, except for a few of my early cheap guitar purchases, I regret selling some old gems. Some were trades but I find myself thinking I wish I would’ve kept that old ax all the time. But if you have a lefty Fender strat that you want to part with let me know. I “kind of” like that reverse Hendrix vibe.  Being a righty I don’t see the lefty stats that often as I casually look for things I don’t need but had fun with in the past. I see that you consider yourself a lucky so & so, I’m in that same boat.

     With great respect, Ralph
   


Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Lon on 12/14/22 at 16:34:44

Interestingly Ralph what you write makes me more inclined to trust your impressions of tube differences!

I'm hoping that especially with a coupon from Steve I might be able to start out with the Western Electric tubes. . . . We'll see. There are so many other options! Which is a good thing.

I hope not to sell any guitars but realistically for domestic tranquility and to not leave a huge mess for my wife if something happens to me I have a lot of downsizing of recordings, guitars and other instruments, equipment etc. to do in the coming years. I don't have any left-handed guitars though I do have three real Fender Strats and two (cherished, fantastic) "FrankenStrats." I can understand wanting to explore what the reversed bridge/nut phenomenom might reveal in a reversed setup.

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by BlackBess on 12/14/22 at 18:40:40

I’ve played one & it’s a hoot & a challenge at the same time. Needs a nut slotted right handed & the stock bridge can be adjusted I believe. String length behind the nut is different, but the big things to me are the whammy bar & knobs under my right arm & reduced access to the upper registers. But the style!! Some call me a style master(J/K)


Give that boy a 6 string steel guitar, Ralph    ¥ not me, Billy Gibbons


find duplicate lines


Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Tony on 12/14/22 at 19:07:19

Lon, I hope you are right about the wait time, as it sounds optimistic.  If you are #2000 in line, to get your amp in 2 years, Decware would have to distribute 85 units a month.  That's more than double their current levels of distribution.  

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Lon on 12/14/22 at 19:09:59

Tony, I am just quoting the recent information Steve gave out. Steve's info I trust more than anyone else's information and calculation, but we'll see is probably the safest answer.

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by JAudio441 on 12/14/22 at 19:53:02

Steve, the amp looks great and looking forward to seeing it on the website.  

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by CAJames on 12/14/22 at 20:47:35


Quote:
Posted by: Tony      Posted on: Today at 16:23:58

...Curious, I searched for a recent listing of Steve's "hand-selected tubes."  Found various references for individual tubes but not a complete list. Has anyone seen one?


I think the ""hand-selected tubes" is what you get when you buy the amp with all the tubes. Similar to the UFO25.

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Tony on 12/14/22 at 21:03:31

I did not ask that question very well. I am seeking a list of what tubes go into the 300b. I know there will be two 300b tubes. I think there will be one 75c1 tube. Others?

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Lon on 12/14/22 at 21:21:19

Tony there will be a rectifier and it seems that the stable of 5U4 types that we are used to can be used. The input stage tube will be a 12AU7 type, there will be two 6922 types (Steve has been using Russian 6N6P here and preferring them), and there will be three voltage regulation tubes for the input and driver tubes, and all three types, 0C2, 0B2 and 0A2 can be used. Steve recently discovered he likes best one 75C1 (0C2) for the input and two 0AC2 for the drivers and I suspect he will ship with those three. I bet Steve ships with the Decware 5U4G though he hasn't indicated that, and he says he will ship with the Chinese NGG 300B tubes, I bet he ships with 6N6P and the mystery is which 12AU7 tube he will ship with. He really likes the Cryotone but that's a big expense to pass on to the buyer.

Ultimately I'm doing some educated guesswork here. . . Steve's answer is the one that counts. Looking forward to the web page! (But I want the man to take his time!)

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Steve Deckert on 12/15/22 at 03:36:29


I can help with the hand selected tube compliment.  Every Decware amp has this, where the tubes are selected during QC while the amplifier is on the scope and distortion analyzer.  In this particular amp the compliment will be 6N6P driver tubes and a 12AU7 input tube.  The VR tubes I thought would be the 75C1, but frankly during the off days when the power sucks and radiation from cell towers and the sun itself is too much causing things to sound sharper, the OA2 is like jumping ahead in time to midnight when everything gains insane liquidity.

I will probably ship the amp with three OA2 now that I think about it, so that way it can't sound bad even handicapped, and no stress in getting the right tube in the right location.  All three are the same, just plug them in.




I am listening to the trio of OA2 tonight using my reference tape machine as the source and it's really been a holy shit moment.  The combination of Sarah, the new Fast 15 driver in the large baffles with network, and the tape machine as the source has more than melted my face off so many times I just can't believe how insanely good this sounds.  

For the first time I am getting the holy grail SE84UFO25 sound through my tape machine!  You see, 2.3 watts is not enough for tape.  The dynamic range of tape compared to LP or stream is 10dB more.  As great as it sounded you could always count on it clipping just when things started getting real...  Not any more.  The headroom of this amp even at four watts is enough to handle the dynamics of tape.  It is truly the best I've ever heard tape sound in my room.  ZF15L, SEWE300B, TAPEMACHINE.

I will make videos of this no worries.  Also I will be back on my tape kick until well after the holidays.  Now that it sounds this good I will have to listen to dozens of tapes again.  Speaking of which, I have a master copy from Columbia Studios in N.Y. of Dave Brubeck's Time Out calling me...

Steve


Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by abd1 on 12/16/22 at 19:55:16

Love the new base. Any chance of offering the top plate in copper or anodized black?

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by BlackBess on 12/16/22 at 21:27:05

I’m hoping that when my turn to hear Sarah comes around that some transformer Cryo-love will be an option. By then maybe l’ll know more about the Wathen OB speakers, that could  be an interesting avenue to explore. Full sized cryogenic treated voice coils & super secret squirrel stuff that went right over my head.
     
     Ralph


Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Mannytheseacow on 12/17/22 at 16:19:41

Are any tubes for this amp besides the 300b available from a US manufacturer?
WE announced back in March that they would be expanding. I understand that takes time but back to some of the original posts in this development thread it gave the impression that part of the intention was to create an amp around US tubes. Just wondering if anyone has heard anything or have any updates?

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Lon on 12/17/22 at 17:27:19


Mjmalon wrote on 12/17/22 at 16:19:41:
Are any tubes for this amp besides the 300b available from a US manufacturer?
WE announced back in March that they would be expanding. I understand that takes time but back to some of the original posts in this development thread it gave the impression that part of the intention was to create an amp around US tubes. Just wondering if anyone has heard anything or have any updates?

I looked around the web a few months ago and again today and haven't seen any recent news, in fact no news of the Western Electric new manufacturing project beyond talking of developing one. So seems it will be a while before there are other than NOS American tubes to use on this one.

Perhaps Steve has had some news from Western Electric itself.

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by CAJames on 12/17/22 at 17:39:52


Quote:
Posted by: Mannytheseacow      Posted on: Today at 16:19:41

...WE announced back in March that they would be expanding. I understand that takes time but back to some of the original posts in this development thread it gave the impression that part of the intention was to create an amp around US tubes...


Yeah, "time" is going to be measured in years and probably many years IMO. The internet thinks the next tube WE is going to make is a 6SN7 anyway, which while potentially adaptable is not directly usable in Sarah. The thing about the 300B is that, for a vacuum tube, it is big and simple so (relatively) easy to manufacture. Stepping up to an octal dual triode like the 6SN7 is like a new generation of tube technology. And going from that to a miniature 9 pin like a 12A[T|U|X]7 is another generation after that.

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Mannytheseacow on 12/17/22 at 18:20:31

Without trying to start a political discussion, my understanding is that Wathan’s cryo tubes begin their life as JJ’s, which are Slovakian? So if one were trying to stay away from Russian or Chinese tubes cryo’s are the next best thing?
FWIW I love my Chinese Lii’s.

*edit- looking at the Wathan site many of their tubes say “NOS made in USA material”.

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Lon on 12/17/22 at 18:40:13

Yes, the Cryo-tone voltage regulation tubes start out as NOS American made tubes.

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by CAJames on 12/17/22 at 18:44:59

For what Wathan's cryo tubes cost I'd rather buy NOS, but that is JMO/FWIW/YMMV.

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Lon on 12/17/22 at 18:52:50

I agree whole-heartedly . . . especially as my sonic experience with the Wathen tubes I've bought is less positive than that of many here. I literally have dozens of these voltage regulation tubes in my stash, bought very very reasonably. Looking forward to the fine-tuning they may add to my 300B listening; have really enjoyed rolling them in my Toriis (in the past) and SE84UFO3 Monoblocks.

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Steve Deckert on 12/17/22 at 21:46:40





https://youtu.be/d8OutKtzOX8




Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Steve Deckert on 12/17/22 at 21:48:55






https://youtu.be/H2LWY-ZSLng



Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Steve Deckert on 12/24/22 at 00:56:23


I made one more video of the amp with Ed Pongs tape but this time connected the tape heads to the ZP3 tube stage and a ZROCK.  It was a good way to end this thread, as we launch this amp tonight.  It was honestly the best sound I've heard out of the system since this all started and quite possibly the best sound I've ever heard period.  

I thought it was pretty good just from the solid state tape machine, but it's been awhile since I went to level 3 with the all tube tape machine setup so I set that up and shocked myself with the sound quality.  Sorry for the profanity at the end of the video... but it was that good.




https://youtu.be/tHvdt8EgEt8







Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Steve Deckert on 12/24/22 at 00:57:53



And here is the link to the web page for the Sarah 300B amplifier: https://www.decwareproducts.com/sarah



Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Lon on 12/24/22 at 01:12:47

Steve, would the Sarah 300B Amplifier forum be a good place for this thread now? Thanks for posting the link to the new web page.

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Kamran on 12/24/22 at 06:59:18

Congrats Steve— a major milestone, this!

Happy Holidays to you and the Decware team!

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by HockessinKid on 12/24/22 at 13:04:13

Bravo Steve! The journey has been exceptional, thanks for sharing!

HK

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Ghostship on 12/24/22 at 15:05:45

I agree, Congratulations! Thank you very much for letting us come along for the ride!  

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Earthbound on 12/27/22 at 02:32:56

What’s the concern with WE? I ordered 300b’s for my amp and got them quickly. I used Gold Lions first, which sounded very good, and then put in some WE’s. These are fantastic. I suppose some other American competition would be nice but you won’t need more than what these have to offer.
Interestingly, if you research WE, they procured some of the original metal used to build some aspect of the new tubes. I guess trying to get the “old” sound. The article also discusses improvements in techniques that they now employ.

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Junker on 12/29/22 at 01:14:32

Love this thread!

I'm new here and just a couple questions that I have bouncing around my head. I'm not an EE so bear with me if I missed or misunderstood anything.

Would you ever consider mono Sarah amps? How could 2x Sarah be a bad thing am I right?!

I have a really nice DAC that I would love to run into something like this. The DAC can output 6V, 2V, and 0.6V. I almost have to wonder if in my case it wouldn't be preferable to run the 6V out and skip a pre-amp section, but the intention that you've put into it means that it's going to work well and as intended by the designer. Would you most likely run it at 2V in? I have a pair of Altec 604 with >100dB efficiency and run way at the bottom of the dial with a 12W 6V6 push-pull.

The hum is something else I am considering with these speakers but honestly I don't think it will be a big deal when playing music, and that type hum is pretty innocuous anyway. I have an isolation transformer that I run with my Shindo Apetite and would run one here as well.

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Steve Deckert on 12/29/22 at 03:06:50


Hi Junker,

Welcome to the forum!  Your DAC at 6V and at 2V would sound good.  Which is better would depend on speakers and room acoustics, cables and so on.  The 6V has the potential for more weight.

Mono, yes.  The Sarah was designed with the Zen Triode's legendary floating output stage so that it can be series bridged into mono which does not smear the sound like standard bridging can.  It sounds great and of course has twice the power.  

It's important to understand that this would sound significantly better than a 300B amp design that puts two 300B tubes in parallel on each channel.  When Sarah is series bridged the output tubes are in series like a totem pole where the differences in the two channels compliment and reinforce each other instead of smear each other like they would in parallel.  It is even possible to use two completely different 300B tubes on each channel (on purpose) to create your own unique 300B sound that exists nowhere else.  Trust me, it's glorious sounding.

In fact it is also possible, just like all Zen Triodes, to make a custom cable set that would allow you to run the amplifiers as fully differential-balanced monoblocks which takes it up another notch.

Tonight we listened to master tapes on the stereo unit paired with 100dB open baffle speakers and the sound demands your more or less undivided attention. How something can be so warm and smooth and so articulated and dynamic at the same time is hard to process, but that is the essence of it.

Thanks for joining the forum!

Steve


Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by CAJames on 12/29/22 at 03:11:56


Quote:
Posted by: Junker      Posted on: Today at 01:14:32
Love this thread!

...Would you ever consider mono Sarah amps? How could 2x Sarah be a bad thing am I right?!


First, welcome to the family!

Now, my 2 cents is this. I have two UFOs that I run as balanced/differential monos, and they are so good I got back on the waiting list for a pair of UFO25s. I think running a pair of Sarahs balanced (assuming your  source is truly balanced) would be awesome. But if your speakers are really  >100dB and you want to use the amps as "regular" single ended monos I don't know if that is really the best way to spend another 4, 5 or 6+ grand (depending on tubes , interconnects etc.) when a single Sarah has way more juice than you need to drive your speakers to really loud.

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Martindfletcher on 12/31/22 at 17:24:02

Any thoughts on how this 300B amp will play with Zu Druid Vs?

Trying attach impedance graph.

Presenting I have 2 mono UFO.2.25s sounds pretty damn good.


Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by MontanaDude on 01/01/23 at 01:07:31

This looks stunningly beautiful...

Any opinions yet on using the Sarah vs. CSP325 + SE84UFO25 (w/pimped mods)? Speakers are currently Forte IVs, but would likely upgrade to Cornwalls down the line. Primary source is mid-level turntable, but that would also get an upgrade to high end deck + MC + ZPC + ZM1-3.

Am currently on the waiting list for some of this stuff but would be considering a pivot prior to their pulling my order.

Thanks!

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Lon on 01/01/23 at 01:20:44

In reading this thread since the beginning it seems to me that the two configurations sound equally magnificent if different. Steve towards the final version of the prototype seemed to indicate that they shared important characteristics and were both "stairways to heaven."

I would think with your speakers' efficiency that you may not need the little boost in power the 300B might provide. But it also seems that the 300B doesn't need a preamp or won't benefit from the preamp as much as the 25th amp may and not having to buy a preamp is a savings.

So. . . perhaps Steve will weigh in (who is perhaps the only one so far that can really answer this, having spent time with both). But there is some information from Steve ahead in this thread.

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by MontanaDude on 01/01/23 at 13:32:35

Thanks Lon. I'd wager the rubber hits the road at "magnificent if different." So more specifically, I'm interested in getting great regular performance at around 65db, with occasional (read: spouse-free) sessions at 75-80db. Content is all over the place, but lots of classic rock and modern post-rock (Tortoise, Shellac, Jim O'Rourke, etc), plus some fairly regular hip hop streamed from DAC. Hoping Steve (or others) might speak to these sorts of differences.

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by CAJames on 01/01/23 at 16:06:56


Quote:
Posted by: MontanaDude      Posted on: Today at 01:07:31
This looks stunningly beautiful...

Any opinions yet on using the Sarah vs. CSP325 + SE84UFO25 (w/pimped mods)?


My opinion is you are going to have a hard deciding what sounds best to you based on message board posts today. Have you listened to the videos Steve has posted of Sarah and the UFO25? Short of visiting Decware and listening for yourself that is best chance to hear actual sonic difference IMO. FWIW this is what Steve said about the comparison, although not the final production Sarah (full disclosure, I don't know what it means):


Tonight during the triangle track I realized what is happening between the two amps. SE84UFO25 and SEWE300B.  

I believe what is actually happening is that the SEWE300B is like HD or even 2K resolution at 60 fps and the SE84UFO25 is like 4K at 30 fps.


But, if it were me the decision would probably boil down to some of the following questions:

Do I want more than 2 1/2 watts? If so get the Sarah

Am I uncomfortable spending 1K$+ for high end 300B tubes? If so get the UFO25

Do I dislike (or like) the idea of a preamp and the extra cables, power cord &c ?

As a practical matter, if you are serious about getting one or the other my advice would be to order anything now to get a place on the list, then wait for posters to start talking about the 300B amps they receive, which should be happening in the next few months. You'll have plenty of time to make up your mind.

The good news is you really can't go wrong with either.


Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Earthbound on 01/01/23 at 21:46:40

Hey Lon. You mention Steve undecided whether a preamp is needed. Aric said the same to me regarding my 300b. I wonder if it’s a 300b thing or a level of quality thing. Next time I contact Aric I will ask.

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Lon on 01/01/23 at 22:17:28

Yes, Steve definitely mentions that in this thread. My guess is because of the second gain stage that he has incorporated into the amp, and I think all 300B amps need a second gain stage, and of course there is the input gain control on the amp that is one of the main jobs of a preamplifier.

Myself, I can't imagine not using my ZTPRE with the amp. . . I'll probably pop it in my system right as I have my Monoblocks at first, that is PS Audio DirectStream DAC to ZTPRE to ZBIT to ZROCK2 to amp(s). I bet it will sound fantastic!

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Earthbound on 01/01/23 at 23:08:32

Very nice! I bet that will sound awesome. Should be fun to try with and without. Look forward to your thoughts on the sound.

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Lon on 01/02/23 at 02:25:26

I look forward to having thoughts! It's still a bit of a wait before me!

https://giphy.com/gifs/kim-novak-tXL4FHPSnVJ0A/fullscreen

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by CAJames on 01/02/23 at 02:49:42

Maybe it’s just me, but I can’t imagine a system without a (tube) preamp.

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Lon on 01/02/23 at 02:56:21

Hard for me to imagine too. Though in my experimentation a system with a ZROCK2 may make me forget about a preamp . . . for a while.

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Earthbound on 01/02/23 at 03:47:46

CAJames. I’ve always had a pre as well. It’s strange not using one. My dac has tubes. So at least I’ve got that.

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by MontanaDude on 01/02/23 at 14:20:47


Quote:
FWIW this is what Steve said about the comparison, although not the final production Sarah (full disclosure, I don't know what it means):


Tonight during the triangle track I realized what is happening between the two amps. SE84UFO25 and SEWE300B.  

I believe what is actually happening is that the SEWE300B is like HD or even 2K resolution at 60 fps and the SE84UFO25 is like 4K at 30 fps.


But, if it were me the decision would probably boil down to some of the following questions:

Do I want more than 2 1/2 watts? If so get the Sarah

Am I uncomfortable spending 1K$+ for high end 300B tubes? If so get the UFO25

Do I dislike (or like) the idea of a preamp and the extra cables, power cord &c ?

As a practical matter, if you are serious about getting one or the other my advice would be to order anything now to get a place on the list, then wait for posters to start talking about the 300B amps they receive, which should be happening in the next few months. You'll have plenty of time to make up your mind.

Want to make sure I understand the analogy being made here:

2K vs 4K would be the difference in detail, while 30 fps vs 60 fps would be about transient response: 60 FPS offers more clarity on the top end, maybe more definition on percussive instrument attacks.

Assuming I'm reading this right (Steve, please clarify at your convenience), I'd personally opt for the 4K / 30 fps found with the UFO25 + CSP325.

Everyone is invited to push back on this.

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Dominick on 01/02/23 at 15:33:35

It can be hard to make a purchase without hearing these amps in person.  Steve’s YouTube videos do help in the process.  Personally I’ve found that listening to the the Decfest live stream renders more detail versus the Youtube videos.  

Maybe Steve would consider setting up livestream appointments every now and then to hear the differences between the UFO25 and the Sarah or any other combinations of amps.  

I attended Decfest the year the UFO25 was released (which was my first Decfest) and was amazed on all fronts.  Afterward I had a conversation with Steve with concerns over my room size and the power output of the UFO25 vs the TORII MKIV.  I ultimately decided to go with the Torii since I wanted the extra power to handle movies and for parties.   BUT…. I can tell you that I fell in love with the SET sound so much that after 1.5 years of Torii ownership and having funds more readily available… I grabbed a ZEN UFO on the used market.  I have been using the ZEN amp almost exclusively lately for my regular listening sessions and the Torii for parties and movies.  

I have a hunch that the Sarah 300B may be the end all and game changing amp in the SET topology as long as it’s paired with decently efficient speakers.  I must admit that with now owning both Push Pull and SET Decware amps….I gravitate towards the sound of the SET topology.  Hope this helps.  

Dom


Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Lon on 01/02/23 at 16:35:27

Perhaps the entire content by Steve referencing 2K and 4K would help:

Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Reply #69 - 04/19/22 at 10:20pm UPDATE Tuesday

Trying to wrap my brain around this tube trying to figure out why it sounds so different.  I couldn't figure out if it's a speed thing or what... what else could it be?  As I mentioned in my last post this amp sounds like a Zen Triode with a CSP325 in front of it. Adding a CSP3 or CSP325 in front of any of our other amplifiers adds density, body, tone.  It makes the digital source sound more like real music.

This amplifier is doing it without the preamp. So it feesl unusual to hear this kind of body without the extra parts in the signal path... ie. preamp.

It definitely sounds like it is connecting all the dots with digital recordings making me wonder if the other Decware amps are just too fast. No that's silly, besides how can a tube be slow to a point where you could hear a difference...  (mind is cooking)

The stereotypical way to connect all the dots is with syrup. We don't need a 1950's thick ass slow mushy amp. There's a lot of them out there. And trust me, the way I built this it is not slow.

So anyway I have been pondering this for the past couple days and then tonight I jumped into the listening chair and caught something that I think is a clue.

I was listening to some delicate triangles being struck in the background of a Larry Carlton piece and marveling at the animation and delicacy of it. The trail of the stick was fully and gracefully defined. I could see it, feel it, and it was different. There was just more there. When you can see the trail of the stick you know it's good, because it's during that trail -- there is no sound.  It's the time the stick is in the air between the notes and what it does that makes music, not the strike. So we're easily able to excavate down to this level, yet things sound so smooth while it's doing it.

I say that because you associate smooth with "filter" or "slower".  

Anyway, these are some things I am wrestling with trying to prepare to describe the sound. So far the one word description is: DENSITY.

Tonight during the triangle track I realized what is happening between the two amps. SE84UFO25 and SEWE300B.  

I believe what is actually happening is that the SEWE300B is like HD or even 2K resolution at 60 fps and the SE84UFO25 is like 4K at 30 fps.

Treble and bass sound so close it's really too hard to call it yet. I think the SE84UFO25 may have tighter bass, but the SEWE300B has more bass density.


More bass density! That potentiality is why I ordered a SEWE300B.

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by CAJames on 01/02/23 at 17:09:20


Quote:
Posted by: MontanaDude      Posted on: Today at 14:20:47

Want to make sure I understand the analogy being made here:

2K vs 4K would be the difference in detail, while 30 fps vs 60 fps would be about transient response: 60 FPS offers more clarity on the top end, maybe more definition on percussive instrument attacks.


Honestly, I posted that somewhat tongue in cheek because, like I said, I have no idea what it actually means and it was referring to an earlier version of the amp, not the one that will actually be sold. If you haven't read all this thread (or at least Steve's posts) that would be a good project at which point you'd know as much as most of us. Also the UFO25 thread is here:

https://www.decware.com/cgi-bin/yabb22/YaBB.pl?num=1510887200

and here:

https://www.decware.com/cgi-bin/yabb22/YaBB.pl?num=1531362294

For me personally I love my UFOs so much I'm back on the waiting list for a pair of UFO25s. A few months ago I acquired a (used) 300B amp similar to this one:

http://www.thebestamp.com/Single-Ended_Tube_Amps/SE-300B-BAL.php

And with Takatsuki 300B tubes and "fancy" 6SN7 equivalent input tubes it sounds really good, and actually pretty similar to my UFOs, but I like the UFOs better. So if it were me, I would take the UFO25. I love the speed and detail and transparency and don't find I'm lacking any "midrange magic" or whatever you want to call it. Also, my Scottish Heritage points out the UFO25 is considerably less expensive than a Sarah with high end 300B tubes, which in my (limited) experience would be absolutely essential.

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by JOMAN on 01/02/23 at 17:11:48


Quote:
It can be hard to make a purchase without hearing these amps in person.


I agree with that statement.  Even then it will be hard as Dominick's experience shows.  

I have been loosely following the development of the Sarah and trying to come to grips with what the difference is between the the Sarah and UFO25.

Based on my exposure to 300B amps and now living with the UFO25 I look at it as a matter of euphonics.  The word euphonic is interpolated from the Latin and Greek which essentially conveys the idea of "pleasing to the ear".  IMO both are pleasing to the ear so what's the difference?

The 300B amps that I have been exposed to are very pleasing to the ear through addition, adding a sort of pleasant flavour (pleasing to the ear in this case).  In so doing the addition also masks a small degree of detail.  Which in this case is not a bad thing.  I think of this as being similar to my adding a small amount of cream and sugar to my morning Americano using a good blend and roast of coffee beans as a base.

The UFO25 on the other hand, is euphonic through subtraction.  It's the espresso that you don't add anything to in order to be able to taste the undiluted flavour of the roast and blend of the coffee bean, which also is very pleasing to the pallet IF that is to ones taste.

What the UFO25 does is pass through the euphonic nature of the instrument(s) and/or voice.  The details in the transients and timing which now come through unhindered provided that the associated equipment can do the same.  Also very pleasing to the ear!

Do not get the impression that I am saying one is better than the other.  I drink my Americano with a touch of cream and sugar and I also like a good double shot of espresso, like my scotch - NEAT.

So the question is, what's the most pleasing to my ear?  As Dominicks experience shows, which also is my experience, it can be a matter of acquired taste as well.

Some of us will be able to have both.


Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Ghostship on 01/02/23 at 18:27:27

The first retail production model hasn't even been built much less delivered yet. I would caution posting comparisons between the UFO25 and other manufacturers' 300b amps in the Decware SEWE300B development thread, lest we really confuse people.

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Lon on 01/02/23 at 20:03:15

I'm in total agreement with Ghostship. Only Steve really knows how the SEWE300B compares to the other Decware amps, and I get the impression that this amp will be different from other 300B amps, significantly.

The first 300B is about #10 on the list so it should be on the bench soon. The first amps out in the field and the first ones reported on here will tell us something--we just have to get through the winter. ;)

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Sean on 01/02/23 at 21:42:17

I’ll play devil’s advocate…I doubt anyone will get a 300b and say it doesn’t measure up. Perhaps over time when the new toy phase wears off. I’m hoping it’s a big hit, personally I’m in no position to upgrade for awhile, but the seed has been planted in my head…UFO25 or 300b…I don’t think that’s an easy decision!

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by JOMAN on 01/02/23 at 21:45:09


Quote:
Tonight during the triangle track I realized what is happening between the two amps. SE84UFO25 and SEWE300B.  

I believe what is actually happening is that the SEWE300B is like HD or even 2K resolution at 60 fps and the SE84UFO25 is like 4K at 30 fps


Actually my post was not a comparison to other manufacturers 300B amps or using those as a basis for my initial thoughts.  It was the above comments by Steve that indicate that 300b tubes do have an effect on the  euphonic nature to the sound and that the effect of the UFO25 is euphonic in a different manner.
 
The fact that 300B tubes will have an effect will be true regardless of the manufacturer or design.  Based on my experience with the UFO25 I do expect the Sarah to be very different from other 300B based amps just as the UFO25 is from other SET designs.

Steves statements using the analogy of video resolution as quoted seem to convey that or at least that is what I understood.  My recent experience with how the UFO25 responded to the changes that I have made definitely confirm what Steve stated as it pertains to the UFO25.

The changes were in the front end, ethernet filters, power filters and cables that focused on transparency, transient response and timing.  The UFO25 conveyed the changes in a way that I did not expect with a clarity that I can only describe as a pass through that is also best described as 4K at 30 fps, or in my analogy of the espresso with nothing added.

If there is any danger in expressing that it is no more or no less dangerous than saying that the Sarah is warmer and the UFO25 more resolving as those statements are also applicable to any other 300B amp vs any other SET that does not use 300B tubes... eg. 300B vs 2A3.

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Steve08226 on 01/03/23 at 00:32:53

Ok, I have to chime in here, if you told me the number of most tubes I would have to look up what it is. I don’t look at or want to understand graphs. Like most I want the most bang for the Buck. If I hear an improvement it’s better to me.

Well, while waiting patiently for a Sarah 300b, zbit, and zrock 2 system we purchased a Dennis Had 300b amp, and the 300b amp has totally blown us away. We just love the WE 300b sound! We are using Goldenear Triton Reference speakers 93.25db we mostly play at 60% volume, crank it to 80% volume and that plays at 85db in our 20 x 22 room that has extensive GIK Acoustics room treatment as well as lots of silk plants.

All of this has changed our lives, there is no such thing as music (system) fatigue here. We wake up saying to each other… ok, ok it’s James Taylor day, or Pink Floyd day, or etc. etc.… too many songs so little time!

Thank You… eagerly and patiently waiting for our Sarah to come home.

Just my thoughts,
Steve

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Lon on 01/03/23 at 02:11:03

I too, at an earlier date, and with different formats and components, spent a lot of time getting my front end solidly transparent and dynamic, and I've never been happier with my Monoblocks and other Decware components. I don't think anyone is at odds with anyone on this thread. I agree with Sean that the 300B is going to be well-received and praised, and I agree that either "route" with the differing amps and with and without a preamp is going to yield excellent sound.

I do expect the 300B to have a unique sound in the company stable, and I do expect it to have a unique sound among other 300B amps. Looking forward to reading impressions!

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Tony on 01/03/23 at 04:49:39


We wake up saying to each other… ok, ok it’s James Taylor day, or Pink Floyd day, or etc. etc.… too many songs so little time


Steve, I think that's about as good as it gets, Congrats

What brand of 300b tubes did you settle on?

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Steve08226 on 01/03/23 at 05:22:06

Whatever tubes Steve suggests are the best, I’am pretty sure it will be the WE 300b’s.

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Tony on 01/03/23 at 06:19:07

And, what tube came with Dennis Had 300b? Did it come with WE?

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Steve08226 on 01/03/23 at 07:06:06

Yes, it came with the WE 300b tubes.

As a matter of fact the WE 300b tubes are only 300b tubes I’ve ever heard.

Thank you,
Steve

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Steve Deckert on 01/03/23 at 17:19:22



Quote:
Want to make sure I understand the analogy being made here:

2K vs 4K would be the difference in detail, while 30 fps vs 60 fps would be about transient response: 60 FPS offers more clarity on the top end, maybe more definition on percussive instrument attacks.

Assuming I'm reading this right (Steve, please clarify at your convenience), I'd personally opt for the 4K / 30 fps found with the UFO25 + CSP325.



I wasn't really thinking of transient response when I made that analogy --

When I look at a 60 FPS video I see more fluidity in the way things move.  It has little to do with resolution of the images that are moving.  I often resort to video references when trying to describe sound.

Another analogy I could use is color.  The colors are bolder and richer on the Sarah but when the colors go semi-transparent so you can start to see through the color, the UFO25 shows this translucency with crystal clarity.

Over the years and especially with the UFO25 I have come to understand the Zen Triode is the amp you actually can't hear.  That's it's magic.  I got the Sarah as close to that as the 300B wanted to get without loosing its sonic potential.

So we think the 300B is warmer or fatter sounding than the 6P15P used in the UFO25 because that is what we hear.

There is some great irony in that because the first harmonic of the fundamental tone on an SET amplifier is always even order and in this case exactly double the frequency of the fundamental tone.  This ghost note exactly one octave above the music is what determines the THD distortion %.

In my world it is the most meaningful when we look at what is happening at 1 watt RMS of output as this is where it will be during the majority of your listening session on most speakers.

You would think the "SET" sound is due to this even order harmonic since push pull amplifiers generally don't have it, and have much lower distortion in general.  You would think that because an SET amp has this ghost note as high as 3% vs. the high power amplifiers that measure ten to 100 times lower that this is where the "sound" comes from.

Yet, when we look at the UFO25 at 1 watt of output the distortion is around 1% or more and the Sarah 300B at the same 1 watt of output is considerably less.  Just the opposite of what you would expect based on that theory.

I think the subjective comparisons to video are at least several times more telling about the sound than the THD specification.  If everyone could read the harmonics on a distortion analyzer with real meaning, like Nelson Pass as one example, then the distortion graph could begin to tell a meaningful story.

Even though I understand what I'm doing I still marvel at why and how things can sound so different.  If I didn't we would only have one amplifier.


Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by JOMAN on 01/03/23 at 20:59:20


Quote:
Over the years and especially with the UFO25 I have come to understand the Zen Triode is the amp you actually can't hear.  That's it's magic.  I got the Sarah as close to that as the 300B wanted to get without loosing its sonic potential.


That is exactly what I was trying to comment on.  The fact that I can't hear my UFO25 anymore.  As I've changed my front end to be of similar character, cables and filter that remove EMI, RFI or any other form of contamination the less I hear the UFO25 and the more I hear of the music, the instruments and voices both individually and in harmony with each other.  Often to a mind bending degree so that I don't even think about it.

Yesterday a couple of friends came over and we listened for three hours.  He wanted to hear what streaming was all about.  We listened to streamed music and to cd's.  The ONLY comments that his wife made repeatedly was WOW!.  Wow to the voices, wow as various instruments were highlighted and wow to what the musicians were doing.  The only reference to any component was when my friends wife said "this is all coming from small speakers - WOW!  The speakers are not that small but the point is that she was commenting on what she was hearing.  Her husband turned to her and said, "dear, this is what you would hear if you were in the studio".  Well, that was his impression.

No comments about the amp, questions about power, or any other component because their attention was solely on what was being presented.  They didn't hear the UFO25.

But this is not "warm" sound.  It's also not cold by any stretch of the imagination.  It's fluid, liquid, rich as is the instrument(s) or voice.  It's a pass through of those.

I'm not trying to say that the UFO25 is better than the Sarah.  In fact I think that to get the UFO25 to do what it is capable of will be more demanding, - my guess only.  My UFO25 was one of the first.  It took this long for me to get it to really disappear to really not hear what it is capable of.

For that reason the Sarah may actually be a better choice for some.

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Lon on 01/04/23 at 19:58:47

Glen's 300B amp is now in "Parts Pulled" status!

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by MontanaDude on 01/04/23 at 20:50:23

The "espresso v. Americano" analogy is great, I immediately get it. Looking forward to seeing how the Sarah plays in the real world before my order comes up. Could go either way of this but can't imagine I'll be unhappy either way.

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Kamran on 01/05/23 at 02:58:33

Lon, thanks for the update—that’s exciting news!

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by BlackBess on 01/05/23 at 17:58:51

Wathen offers cryogenic treatment for Decware products including the Sarah. When my amp is ready for shipment I’m hoping to have it sent to Don for cryotherapy. :D If anyone else is planning on this I would be curious of the results. It seems as if it will be long wait, maybe I’ll have a Herman to introduce to Sarah by then. His T-casters look interesting as well.
 
  Every now & then I know it’s kind of hard to tell, but I’m still alive & well,
Ralph


Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Lon on 01/05/23 at 18:03:59

I got an email about this as well. I'm not planning on sending any of my amps. I've had a fifty-fifty experience with their tubes at best, and I can decide to not use the tubes or find a place in one of the systems where they work best. I can't not use or return the amp if I don't like the results!

I applaud the bravery and faith of others. ;)

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Bluemage on 01/05/23 at 20:44:36

Can't wait to get my 300. I ordered many components in March. Was on page 64 then, and am on 34 now. Assuming this rate maintains, I'll have my hardware sometime this autumn.

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by DLM on 01/05/23 at 21:24:11

I'm also on the waitlist for the 300B, is there a rule of thumb thought on which rectifier to choose....   maybe to better pair with your speakers ?

RECTIFICATION: 274B or 5U4 or 5AR4

I have Klipsch Cornwall IV's, would one suit the Klipsch better than the others ?

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Bluemage on 01/05/23 at 21:28:56

Nice! I'm also saving for Cornwalls!

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Sarah on 01/05/23 at 23:20:19

If you pre-ordered a 300B or switched your order before it was on the website, please shoot me an email with the options you'd like so I can update your invoice. I sent a mass email a couple of days ago but I'm not sure everyone received it. As I'm updating orders, you'll see the model change from 300B on the wait list to SEWE300B.

Thanks! : )

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by JOMAN on 01/05/23 at 23:41:35

BlackBess,

I had my CSP3-A processed and yes it made a difference.  Simply put it disappeared.  Would I do it again???  Next month my UF025 goes in for processing.

I have had extensive experience with CryoTone and found that the ultimate results are when a full set of tubes are used.  One ore two will only give you an idea of what these can do. Sometimes the other tubes can get in the way.

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Lon on 01/06/23 at 01:17:53

That may be so about all of them making the real impact. But at their cost if you buy one or two and aren't satisfied it's not inspiring one to fully equip an amp, or have an amp submerged itself! That's where I am and will likely remain.

I hope that the first SEWE300B owners are ones who will be on the forum and post their impressions of his amp when they have them operating!

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Bluemage on 01/06/23 at 01:47:29

I love the look of giant tubes. Is the 274b the largest, lightbulbesque tube I've seen on the Sarah? Additionally, is that the one that would utilize the full 7 watts?

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Lon on 01/06/23 at 02:17:12

Yes, some of the photos feature a Psvane 274B. I believe that this, like the Sophia Electric Aqua 274B, is electrically similar to a 5U4 type, and not like the classic 274B that was used in the 91 Amp and others in the early years of audio. I would be interested to know if that older electrical version of the 274B can be used in the SEWE300B--I suspect it would be rather short lived.

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by CAJames on 01/06/23 at 03:10:17


Quote:
Posted by: Lon      Posted on: Today at 02:17:12

...I would be interested to know if that older electrical version of the 274B can be used in the SEWE300B--I suspect it would be rather short lived.


I remember a post by Steve, although I was unable to find it just now, where he said the 300B uses a filter choke that reduces the maximum capacitor requirement of the rectifier to 4 uF, so you can indeed use that WE 274B you have lying around. The big requirement is the rectifier is rated for at least 200 mA DC current.

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by JOMAN on 01/06/23 at 03:26:55


Quote:
That may be so about all of them making the real impact. But at their cost if you buy one or two and aren't satisfied it's not inspiring one to fully equip an amp, or have an amp submerged itself!


Hey Lon!

Yes, I know where you're at.  I won't hi jack this thread as I plan to do a comprehensive review of what I've been doing of late including my experience with CryoTone Tubes, might be of some benefit.  I'm on a mission and I doubt that it'll be completed till March at which time I'll post.  Just got the Puritan PSM 156.  Power cables are next... going shielded cables as well.

As a suggestion, If you don't like the results send the tubes back in a reasonable time frame...  0 risk.  Might be a pain but well worth it.  At times I find this hobby to be a pain.


Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by BlackBess on 01/06/23 at 04:19:35

With how long the wait is to get a Sarah & being intrigued by the cryogenic process, I’ve been wondering about Wathen’s Herman. A push-pull el84 all cryo-amp. Plus I always wanted to try one of those old Mapleshade modded Scott amps. Maybe a similar-esh experience. But the more I think, I try to remember, if you don’t think too good, don’t think too much.


I’m hoping to post thoughts on the Wathen 300B cryotone tubes soon.
BTW, old Bess has had cryogenic therapy.


Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Kamran on 01/06/23 at 05:08:13

Lon, I’ve made a mental note to list my Had amp for sale when your 300b shows ‘parts pulled’.  I think you and I are #10 and #12 respectively if you sort the list for Sarah.

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Lon on 01/06/23 at 16:36:06

Kamran, a lot of people are changing amps to the 300B I think. At one point I was #5 in the queue, now I'm #10. And the one that was in "Parts Pulled" status now is on the bench. Which I find exciting!

As of this morning 73 SEWE300B are on the list! It's already a "success" and no customer has one yet! Wow.

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Tony on 01/06/23 at 17:45:05


I am not an academic or a marketing professional, but the Decware story, in general, and more specifically, the SEWE300B release, would make for a great business case study.  Has anyone within the Decware community with the appropriate background ever thought of writing about this company?  Maybe it's already been done, and if so, I think it would make for a great read.

Congrats to Steve & Co. for what they have done.


Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Bluemage on 01/07/23 at 01:46:44

Will there still be an option to have the top plate oriented in a fashion, which displays the screen printing? I know Steve was having some problems with his screen printer, hope they got that sorted out. I much prefer the screen printed option. Looks awesome.

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Lon on 01/07/23 at 17:03:31

And I just read in the manual for this amp that you can't use mesh 274B. . . .

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Tony on 01/07/23 at 17:49:19



I just read in the manual for this amp that you can't use mesh 274B..

How does one differentiate between a "mesh" and not "mesh" 274B?  Is it part of the description?  

I searched eBay, and found a few offered but did not see a "mesh" reference.  

Thanks, Lon

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by CAJames on 01/07/23 at 18:44:04

I'm familiar with the EML Mesh Plate 274[A|B] rectifiers, there may be others from China. The key spec for a rectifier for Sarah (mesh or not) is it needs to deliver 200 mA DC current.

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Lon on 01/07/23 at 19:29:17

Sadly I'm not possessing a great deal of knowledge about these rectifiers. The "mesh plate" is actually a description of the "plates" within the tube. Generally these are "solid" but several manufacturers make "mesh" plates, and they seem to have differing needs for resistors associated with them. The "mesh" seem to be most often used with 45 amps, and there are "mesh" versions of the 45 output tube.  The "mesh" will be short-lived if operated within other Decware amps, and in the manual for the SEWE300B Steve notes they are not designed for use.

A "mesh plate" 274B:



A "solid plate" 274B:


Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Rivieraranch on 01/07/23 at 21:24:33

That mesh plate looks like the cutting side of an electric shaver.

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Lon on 01/07/23 at 21:29:16

I guess so. I use the rotary head type myself when I don't use a wet blade. ;)

They do light up and look bright in use!




Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Steve Deckert on 01/08/23 at 00:04:32


The silk screen will not be offered because the screeners botched the job twice and we ran out of time.   Honestly, the cleaner look without it is pretty appealing too so it's not the end of the world.





(click to enlarge)



My solution to this problem was to change the power transformer to this:




(click to enlarge)



This is the new bench sample that I'm building.  I made some small changes at the last minute.  Marking the transformer, recessing the meters, and there will be some internal updates to the layout.


Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Lon on 01/08/23 at 00:10:00

Nice! I like the labeled transformer cover better than a silk-screened chassis.

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Steve Deckert on 01/08/23 at 00:20:06


Thanks for the vote of confidence!  If 51% like it better it would be a winner.  It didn't come cheep.  It is laser engraved into the core and the core has to be prepared by being sanded flat until it is smooth and then brushed to create the illusion of laminations and then painted, lasered and top coated.

But, it is everything you need to know, where you can easily see it and I haven't seen any other amplifiers marked this way.




Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Steve Deckert on 01/08/23 at 00:32:23


Since I have to build another one I've decided to take you through this process as I go... as a nice way to complete this development thread.

So the first thing is to prep the steel plate by sanding off the powder coat in key locations so that the volume pots and input switches stay shielded and the power transformer is grounded to the plate.




These plates are 1/8th inch thick.  They are made in Addison Illinois.  The screeners are also from Addison but are a different company.


Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Steve Deckert on 01/08/23 at 00:35:29


The next step is to use RTV Silicon on the bottom of the power transformer so that it becomes glued to the steel plate. The mounting tabs alone won't hold it during shipping accidents.



Yes, I practiced on the bottom with the laser.






Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Steve Deckert on 01/08/23 at 00:37:32


Making sure to mount it the correct way.  Nothing like finishing the amp and removing the tape to find you installed it upsidedown.







Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Steve Deckert on 01/08/23 at 00:46:33


Bolts have to be long enough to carry additional hardware.




Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Steve Deckert on 01/08/23 at 00:51:18


Installing sockets.  These are the best available in this form factor.  I've tested them all.  There are many sockets that look like this from a distance but the inside of these sockets have dynamic springs surrounding the tube pin for the highest contact area of any socket design.













Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Steve Deckert on 01/08/23 at 00:52:26


Installing the 7 pin voltage regulator sockets and the voicing switches.





Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Steve Deckert on 01/08/23 at 00:55:57


I decided to flush mount the meters because on this amp, it makes it look more expensive.  Eventually these meters will be replaced by color coded DECWARE meters, but they are still months out so the first amps will be easily identified as being the ones with the white meters.








Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Steve Deckert on 01/08/23 at 00:58:55


Installing the boards on the sockets so that the the round pin holders can't spin.






Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Steve Deckert on 01/08/23 at 01:01:04


Adding the rest of the hardware.  Machined gold RCA jacks, and Red Copper binding posts.









Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Steve Deckert on 01/08/23 at 01:05:58


Adding the IEC module.  This is a medical grade noise and spike filter featuring a dual fused design that protects both the Line and the Neutral.  It is in a mu metal case so that there is no RF coming out of it.  The power switch is also in this module and is lit a dull red when on.





Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Steve Deckert on 01/08/23 at 01:12:19



Wiring the transformer wires to get them out of the way.  On the 300B socket the heater wires are soldered directly to the pins so there is no current going through the board.  Besides the current of the heater the heater is is also the cathode that draws additional current. The board is just there to keep the pin holders from moving.





Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Steve Deckert on 01/08/23 at 01:24:28


Mounting the output transformers so we'll know where to construct the audio ground buss.









Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Steve Deckert on 01/08/23 at 01:27:10


The audio ground buss I have found to be one of the most crucial parts of the amplifier as it effects the sound, performance and noise. We use bare copper suspended in air.







Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Steve Deckert on 01/08/23 at 01:33:19



The point where you connect the center taps of the power transformer are what determine the center point of the ground.  Think of this center point like either a faucet or a drain for the entire audio circuit.  That is why it is connected in the center of the copper buss.  This also keeps both of the tap wires the same length despite coming out of both sides of the transformer.





Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Steve Deckert on 01/08/23 at 01:39:48


With the audio ground buss established, it is time to bridge the audio ground to earth/chassis ground through a resistor and capacitor.  This holds the audio ground signal a few ohms above ground so that it becomes nearly impossible to have ground-loop hum.








Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Steve Deckert on 01/08/23 at 01:42:37



And this is what it looks like with all the power transformer wires done.








Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Lon on 01/08/23 at 01:44:29


Steve Deckert wrote on 01/08/23 at 00:20:06:

Thanks for the vote of confidence!  If 51% like it better it would be a winner.  It didn't come cheep.  It is laser engraved into the core and the core has to be prepared by being sanded flat until it is smooth and then brushed to create the illusion of laminations and then painted, lasered and top coated.

But, it is everything you need to know, where you can easily see it and I haven't seen any other amplifiers marked this way.

It's a unique and classy touch, fitting for this amp. Thanks for showing this assembly step by step.

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Steve Deckert on 01/08/23 at 01:48:26


And to complete this stage of the build, the 6.3V heater wires for the rest of the tubes.  You'll notice throughout this build that we don't use solid core hookup wire.  We have different stranded wires for each part of the amplifier.  We do this so that vibration during shipping doesn't fatigue the wire or solder connections.  Instead the wire absorbs energy by being soft and flexible.






And while it looks like a lot of stuff, this is just the power supply and it's not even finished.  The actual audio circuit is really just a hand full of parts sprinkled into this root system ; )






Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Bluemage on 01/08/23 at 01:50:17

A.  
Love seeing this process and love the transformer laser etching, but man, you're breaking my beard showcasing that silk-screened top plate. I love that look, it looks so sharp!

The flush-mount meters were a great call also.

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Steve Deckert on 01/08/23 at 02:08:44


Yea I hear ya.  This particular plate was only 1/16th off center, but most are 1/8th or more.  But now with the transformer laser work it would be redundant to have screening, which is to say had the silk screened model worked out it would not have had the laser work on the top and the transformers would not be finished to this high level.  It almost doubles the cost of the transformer, but it's a much cleaner look and makes the amp look more expensive.

Did that help?



Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Bluemage on 01/08/23 at 02:20:27

Yeah, man, I get it. Sometimes a thing just wants to be what it wants to be. The Decware 300 wanted to be something different, and alas, it is. I respect it for what it is.

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Steve Deckert on 01/08/23 at 02:32:34


Agreed, it has been my experience over the years that you can't tell Sarah what to do ; )


Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Steve Deckert on 01/08/23 at 02:44:31





(click to enlarge)



Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Kamran on 01/08/23 at 02:46:39

Haha..Last week I had the pleasure of speaking to Sarah about Sarah and felt a little discombobulated trying to keep the amp and person differentiated as I figured out my options.

Steve, love love the laser engraving on the transformer!  Thanks for taking us through the inner build.  That was fascinating and educational at the same time.

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Steve Deckert on 01/08/23 at 03:19:20


Speaking of discombobulated, I stumbled across this picture and realized that you are actually looking at DECWARE over 20 years in the past.  From left to right is Sarah (customer service manager) Jake (shipping) Josh (parts) Myself and wife DeVon (General Mgr).






You can see that even back then you didn't tell these strong women what to do!  Not only did that women on the right take care of everyone in the picture and wrestle with Sarah but at the same time helped form and run Decware which she continues to do today but with the addition of seven grand kids!  There is not a person in this picture that Decware can run for more than two days without and that's even with the help of the other six people who work here.

[smiley=tunes57.gif]
Anyway, I had absolutely no clue when this picture was taken that we would be having this conversation today about an amplifier deservedly named after Sarah!
















Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Same Old DD on 01/08/23 at 05:20:38

Absolutely amazing pic!!
So much history yet to see unfold.

I just wish that old Schofield looking break front revolver was not pointed so close to your ear.

[smiley=tunes26.gif]

I can only bow with respect!

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by HockessinKid on 01/08/23 at 12:49:05

Steve,

Simply amazing build, quality, care and details on the Sarah 300B amplifier. This is a true classic in the making thanks to you. I really like the last minute changes of the recessed meters and tube layout on top of the transformer. Looking forward to seeing the Decware colored meters when they are available.

I'm so glad I got in the pre-order que for this masterpiece.😊

HK

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Tooppy on 01/08/23 at 14:06:44

This step by step built pictures reminds me of my FirstWatt F5 that I built, every single move need to be carefully thought, and is what I enjoyed in the building process, pause...think....not sure of yourself....read...ask....search, I did all this before starting anything, it took me a long time but then the built went smoothly and surprisingly fast.
If this Sarah was a kit, I would get into it right away!

-A side question : could these 274B tubes be used in a 84 UFO-2 ?

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Lon on 01/08/23 at 14:19:25

The Sophia Electric Aqua 274B that I have been using for five years now in my amps certainly could.

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Tooppy on 01/08/23 at 15:08:06

I was looking at this one :

https://www.thetubestore.com/preferred-series-274b-5u4g

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Lon on 01/08/23 at 15:20:38

It will work.

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Tooppy on 01/08/23 at 16:03:40

Can you explain sonic differences from the original 5U4G....if any ?

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Lon on 01/08/23 at 16:23:58

There are so many differences between the different types and brands of 5U4 that I really can't. I will say that the Sophia Aqua 274B that I have presents a big and bold soundstage and tonal presentation. . . feels more "powerful" than most of the other rectifier tubes I have used, and has a clarity, a resolution, better than most.

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Tony on 01/08/23 at 18:22:03


I hope I am not muddying up the water, but...

Above somewhere, re 274B,  CAJames said:

The key spec for a rectifier for Sarah (mesh or not) is it needs to deliver 200 mA DC current.


sales@sophiaelectric.com sent me the following:


"This means the rectifier tube can handle at least 200 ma. Our Aqua 274B only handles up to 160 ma. So you can’t use Aqua 274B in your amplifier.

We have a vintage rectifier tube (https://sophiaelectric.com/collections/274b-5u4g/products/nos-5z3pa-rectifier-tube) you can use with good sound at a much lower price."


I'm confused.


Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Lon on 01/08/23 at 18:33:15

Well, that is a wrinkle then. The manual does say that about the 200ma, and the Aqua specs do mention 160ma. Looks as if none of the Sophia Electric 274B will work in the SEWE300B. I ordered one of the NOS rectifiers they recommended from them.

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by CAJames on 01/08/23 at 18:34:43

I found the reference to 200 mA, it is in the Rectifier section on page 4 of the SEWE300B manual:

https://www.decwareproducts.com/_files/ugd/f1f204_43e0fad1767b4d279e3e3b253a2efc1f.pdf

Beyond that, YMMV.

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by CAJames on 01/08/23 at 18:58:40

Note however that Steve also likes the GZ34/5AR4 rectifiers in the amp and they are rated for 160 mA too. So maybe 200 is more of a guideline than a rule....

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Kamran on 01/08/23 at 21:37:03


Quote:
Speaking of discombobulated, I stumbled across this picture and realized that you are actually looking at DECWARE over 20 years in the past.  From left to right is Sarah (customer service manager) Jake (shipping) Josh (parts) Myself and wife DeVon (General Mgr).


Aww..what a fantastic family picture Steve! This epitomizes how I feel about Decware.  A family, above everything else. Hope you had the ladies consent to post it!


Quote:
There are so many differences between the different types and brands of 5U4 that I really can't. I will say that the Sophia Aqua 274B that I have presents a big and bold soundstage and tonal presentation. . . feels more "powerful" than most of the other rectifier tubes I have used, and has a clarity, a resolution, better than most.


I second the Sophia.  Even though it’s not currently part of my rotation (the Mazda 5Y3 is supporting the Visseaux 6V6 right now), I love that rectifier tube and agree with how Lon described it with one more addition.  I think the Sophia also presents vocals a hair more  organically (naturally) compared to other rectifiers I have used (GE 5U4, Blackburn Mullard GZ 34, Mazda 5Y3).  If we can’t use it with Sarah, I’ll just find it a new home.

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Steve Deckert on 01/10/23 at 02:32:25


The amp draws between 160~175mA during operation.  200mA is giving a small safety margin so people don't have issues, especially with weaker used NOS or Chinese tubes.


Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Steve Deckert on 01/10/23 at 02:47:03


We have received the first 100 coupons from Western Electric.  These will be either included with the amplifier or mailed in advance per the customers request.  Not shown below but each coupon will have a unique code that can only be used once.








Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Steve Deckert on 01/10/23 at 02:51:08


Before I post more pictures of this build... This technique and parts are how we build all of our amplifiers.  There is no layout like you see on so many amplifiers, and the reason for that is the wires.  Lining up all the parts in a row on a board or terminal strip and then running wires to where those parts needed to connect is easier to build, looks nicer, but sounds worse.  We just try to keep everything happening in 3D space with the least number of solder nodes that would be practical.  Keeping wire lengths the same and channels symmetrical, parts close together that can be, distances between parts and orientation often has to do with magnetic fields, heat, vibration or all of the above.

 

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Steve Deckert on 01/10/23 at 02:58:33

The Output transformer secondary wiring is done next.  These transformers are made with heavy gauge silver-plated wire in a Teflon jacket.  The switches are Mountain brand with silver contacts, same as used in all of our stuff.  It is a DPDT switch where both sides are wired in parallel to double the contact area.  Why trust your audio signal to one switch when you can have two. The same is done for the input jacks where the switch located between them selects your source.  Having only 1.5 inches of heavy silver Teflon wire between the RCA and silver switch done in this way is transparent like it wasn't even there.







Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Steve Deckert on 01/10/23 at 03:09:40


Now it's time to finish the audio ground.  The copper buss is the trunk of the tree.  Now we have to construct the branches. Remember, ground current is like water flowing in a hose. The black wire that connects to the end of the copper buss on each side is the remainder of the main audio ground for the amp.








Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Steve Deckert on 01/10/23 at 03:20:31


We use dual ganged volume pots (one shown below) because of the feel.  Having the friction from two wipers gives the volume control a nice quality feel when it rotates.

In the case here where we set the amp up with a separate volume control for each channel we still use dual pots but only one half is used so the 100K impedance is maintained.

These are ALPHA pots which have proven to be a favorite over the years with a taper that nicely compliments the input sensitivity of the amplifier.





Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Steve Deckert on 01/10/23 at 03:27:50


The amp uses a novel hum balance circuit of which this is the capacitor used in it.  It is mounted here on the meter to eliminate a connecting wire and isolate it from the metal chassis that will will be very warm.  The less heat an electrolytic cap sees the longer it is likely the last.  







Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Steve Deckert on 01/10/23 at 03:33:10


Now we can hook up the last two dangling wires on the output transformers...  and things will stop feeling so chaotic.  Next will be building the filter network.  The yellow wire with black stripe is the center tap from the 5V secondary that is connected to the rectifier.  This is where we tap the high voltage so it all starts here at that node.  That said I will be building it backwards from left to right, I'm not sure why.






Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Steve Deckert on 01/10/23 at 03:46:41


We will start with the last node here, which is what will power the the input and driver tubes.  Couple things; the large copper foil cap is the bypass cap for the black electrolytic cap.  The white one is MIFLEX made in Poland, and the black is F&T made in Germany.  In my experience it is the best electrolytic of its type available.  All of these caps are axial-lead caps because they often sound better than radial caps that connect to circuit boards.  

We like the caps to float in air so that they have the same temperature around the circumference of the cap. If it were glued to a board or the hot steel chassis -- part of the cap would be at a different temperature.  In a signal cap, the burn-in process is about the foil and dielectric film between the foil layers moving around until they seat and stop moving.  That is when your amp is broke in.  However, if the cap is a different temperate at one end than the other -- or one side vs the other, the dielectric film is being pulled which is going to smear certain things in the sound not unlike a cap that isn't fully burned-in.








Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Steve Deckert on 01/10/23 at 03:50:26


Moving right along, this is the next node that will be supplying the output tubes.  Same size bypass cap to match the speed and timing of the input and driver tubes.  More electrolytic to handle the higher current of the output stage.






Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Steve Deckert on 01/10/23 at 03:55:51


And one to get my ears ringing when the techs have to fashion this... the input cap, which I wanted to be rated at 800 volts and be 4uf without being a large film cap.  Loosing the speed signature of the electrolytic at this point would be a mistake, so we have to make our own cap, and bypass it as well.  This cap is separated from the others by the choke and a series resistor.  It's a pain in the ass to make, the resistors are to balance the caps during the initial charge and act as a bleed down resistor to discharge all of the capacitors over time.








Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Steve Deckert on 01/10/23 at 04:01:59


And one more electrolytic and film cap to handle the other side of the choke that we will install towards the end of the build.  This completes the capacitors for the power supply of the amplifier.











Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Bluemage on 01/10/23 at 21:08:42

I love seeing your craftsmanship, Steve. Most of this technical stuff is lost on me, but your transparency is a breath of fresh air in our current market. It's rare to even know where a product is built these days, let alone to hear about the the nuances and idiosyncrasies of its innards! Keep it up, brother!

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Bottlehead on 01/10/23 at 22:43:31

Bluemage,

+1. I need another amp like I need another pair of speakers, which is to say not at all, but I do really enjoy following the build threads for Steve's various masterpieces. If there is another audio manufacturer who opens up his process the way Steve does, I haven't heard about it. Big thanks to Steve, Randy and all the posters here for a major upgrade of my audio education.

Randy

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Steve Deckert on 01/11/23 at 03:30:25


Thank you for all the kind words. The truth is that the magic of much of the sound of these amp comes from this part of the process so it is in reality the most telling aspect of the design I would say.  By now, with circuit boards I could have easily had four amps done.  It's not going to hurt people to see the inside of the process because it will only help them appreciate the result that comes from it.







Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Lon on 01/12/23 at 14:39:31

Update: concerned about the 200ma warning Steve wrote about rectifiers I ordered one of the rectifiers that Sophia Electric recommended to use, from this page:

https://sophiaelectric.com/collections/274b-5u4g/products/nos-5z3pa-rectifier-tube

I received the NOS 5Z3PA and it's a very well-made substantial seeming NOS Chinese tube. As I only had one I couldn't use this in the Monoblocks but did run it a few hours in my CSP3 with the Anniversary mods. Not as much to my liking as the Sophia Electric Aqua 274B by a long shot, but I'll put it aside to try in the SEWE300B.

Speaking of the SEWE300B sometimes I feel I must be insane for going into financial straits ordering one and paying for it. My system sounds so amazing. Recent tube-rolling and attention to noise in the system has me just gob-smacked and in a trance sometimes. Do I need another amp? NO! But I do want to hear the SEWE300B in my home.

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Ghostship on 01/12/23 at 15:01:26


Quote:
Speaking of the SEWE300B sometimes I feel I must be insane for going into financial straits ordering one and paying for it. My system sounds so amazing. Recent tube-rolling and attention to noise in the system has me just gob-smacked and in a trance sometimes.

LOL, Lon, I hear you. The past 17 months on the waiting list have provided me the opportunity to attend to every other aspect of my system so that my room sounds perfect right now.

The honest appraisals of Decware owners like you are one of the biggest factors that convinced me to place my order (even though the original order has been changed twice now). This kind of transparency makes the decision a no-brainer...I know exactly what I'm getting, and I am completely confident this amp will easily meet and exceed my expectations.

So, thanks not just to Steve and his team, but to you and forum members like you.

Michael

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Ghostship on 01/12/23 at 15:36:45

From the Sofia Electric site:

Quote:
Sophia Electric Princess mesh plate 274B and rigid plate 274B tubes have been widely praised as the best sounding rectifier tubes ever made. However there is a catch - the first capacitor after the rectifier tube needs to be small. The max value allowed for the Princess 274B mesh plate is 4uf, or 8uf for the Princess 274B rigid plate. But for a typical 300B single ended amplifier, it is usually larger than 8uf. To overcome this limitation, Sophia Electric came out with a newly designed Aqua 274B rectifier tube to raise the limitation from 8uf to 47uf. This Aqua 274B can directly replace 5U4G in most amplifiers with great sonic improvement.

Aqua and WE 274B tubes would deliver 150ma-160ma of current at 430vDC per 274B tube.

Stereo 300B tube amplifier needs to have one 274B rectifier tube per channel, two 274B rectifier tubes for two channels.  If the amp was designed to have only one rectifier tube for both channels, then 5U4G is more suitable.


FWIW - Michael

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Lon on 01/12/23 at 15:46:29


Ghostship wrote on 01/12/23 at 15:36:45:
From the Sofia Electric site:

FWIW - Michael

Yes. . . I admit to being a bit confused about the whole rectifier thang in this SEWE300B amp. I had been assuming the Sophia Electric Aqua 274B which I love so much would be fine in that amp, as it is electrically, as I understood it, similar to the 5U4G. I have been using one in my Monoblocks and in the audio visual system in my CSP3+ and as I have a spare I know I will risk trying it in the SEWE300B when that day comes. If there's an issue, then I'll try this one from Sophia Electric that they recommend. . . and I have others as well.

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by CAJames on 01/12/23 at 16:29:30


Quote:
Posted by: Lon      Posted on: Today at 15:46:29

Yes. . . I admit to being a bit confused about the whole rectifier thang in this SEWE300B amp. I had been assuming the Sophia Electric Aqua 274B which I love so much would be fine in that amp, as it is electrically, as I understood it, similar to the 5U4G...


I think at least part of the confusion is that for so long, esp. for the UFO type amps, all the discussion was about the maximum size of the first power supply capacitor, whether (or how close) it was for 47 uF. The actual DC current requirements for the UFO are low, so the only thing we needed to worry about was the cap.

The 300B amp turns that on its head. Now with first PS cap is very small, so pretty much any rectifier checks that box. But the DC current requirement is much more significant, and perhaps too much for many rectifiers.

So when people say e.g. the Aqua 274B is similar electrically to the 5U4G, they were talking about the capacitor rating. There is and has always been a real difference in the rated DC current output, with 5U4G rated for 225 mA. It didn't matter when we were talking about UFOs, it does matter for Sarah.

But note also, that just as the first capacitor rating is more of a guideline than a rule, so is the current rating. I'll never tell anyone to ignore it, but I expect that lots of rectifiers rated for 160 mA would work fine. For example Steve likes the GZ34/5AR4 and it rated for 160 mA.

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Lon on 01/12/23 at 16:49:30

Yes, and Steve liking those rectifiers and using them was what was most confusing to me.

This is one case where having a few dozen different rectifiers is a nice thing to have on hand. . . and I'm never averse to adding to my tube collection, more's the pity. . . . If it comes down to using 5U4G I have four pairs of those, two different construction RCA, one branded Zenith, and one branded DuMont.

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Steve Deckert on 01/14/23 at 00:37:50


The Sarah 300B amp draws 160mA with both WE300B and the selected Chinese 300B tubes.   I haven't had issues with good rectifiers rated at 160mA but if you get a tired one or one that has been thrown around a lot, then expect it to fail and blow the external fuse. Still a favorite is the 5AR4, but I will be shipping the amp with 5U4G because it is rated higher and will therefor be likely to last longer.








Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Steve Deckert on 01/14/23 at 00:58:04


Let's build the preamp stage.  Remember it wasn't needed for gain, but for voicing and to create a gain structure, which is voicing. :-?   So here is the 12Au7 input tube.  It is fed directly off the voltage regulator tube that is 1/2 inch away so no need for wires and extra solder nodes.








Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Steve Deckert on 01/14/23 at 01:06:02


This nearly completes the input stage.  The black ground wire from the input tube (a dual triode used for both channels) is connected to the exact center of the audio ground buss.  This keeps the current from the input stage from mixing with the current from either channels.  This stage has full output at all times.  It feeds the volume controls which in turn feed the 6N6P driver stages.






Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Steve Deckert on 01/14/23 at 01:10:53


The distance between the volume control and the driver tube is the length of the resistor so that no wire is needed and additional nodes are not being created.  The less nodes the better the sound.






Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Steve Deckert on 01/14/23 at 01:13:19


Here it is getting close to finished.  Ready for the large choke that goes in the middle.







Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Steve Deckert on 01/14/23 at 01:20:10


Time to wire the inputs.  We use both channels of MOGAMI wire after years of testing different internal wires and this is our favorite.  So we have two conductors soldered into one and connected to two switch contacts soldered together.  The cable is shielded all the way to the input tube.





Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Steve Deckert on 01/14/23 at 01:28:24


This is where the input cables go.  This is the custom filter I developed as part of the voicing for the amplifier.  Despite all the parts you see, there is only one resistor (the blue one) in the signal path of each channel.  The input and output are 1/4 inch apart.  Everything else is simply going to ground.  The switches turn it on and off.






Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Steve Deckert on 01/14/23 at 01:34:43


And here is what it looks like when it's done.





Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Steve Deckert on 01/14/23 at 01:52:49


And here it is being tested with the good sounding Chinese tubes.  I recently found some that looked like these that were completely unacceptable. The bass was bloated and ugly -- Something easily missed in China because they don't listen to bass heavy music.  Anyway after testing over 10 different 300B tubes in this amp those were the first ones I didn't like.





Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Steve Deckert on 01/14/23 at 02:15:46


So this amplifier has about an hour on it so far configured with the good sounding Chinese 300B tubes, and I'm already into it.  Is it as good as the Western Electric or Cyrotone? No it's not as good but you would never know that unless you hear them side by side.  To get into a groove with an amp after only one hour is a really good sign and frankly if you are on a tight budget these tubes won't disappoint.  If they however sounded like the other ones I tried, you would have thought there was something wrong with your speakers or the amplifier...   This is why we are offering the amp with this lesser expensive option, so that the tubes can be tested in the amplifier and are known to sound right.

We don't have to worry about this with Western Electric 300B tubes which is why we let you save money and buy the tubes directly from them.






 

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Lon on 01/14/23 at 02:17:43


Steve Deckert wrote on 01/14/23 at 00:37:50:

The Sarah 300B amp draws 160mA with both WE300B and the selected Chinese 300B tubes.   I haven't had issues with good rectifiers rated at 160mA but if you get a tired one or one that has been thrown around a lot, then expect it to fail and blow the external fuse. Still a favorite is the 5AR4, but I will be shipping the amp with 5U4G because it is rated higher and will therefor be likely to last longer.






Thanks Steve.

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Lon on 01/14/23 at 02:44:26

Just as an aside: I can see why Steve really likes the 6N6P in the SEWE300B. I'm using a pair of red tip gold-grid ones right now in my Monoblocks that I hadn't put to use before. I moved to a different 12AU7 in my ZROCK2 and the sound is great--really balanced and "alive." I'll certainly be trying these in my SEWE300B when it arrives months from now.

Looks just like these:


Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by JBzen on 01/14/23 at 12:23:42

All in a day's work? ;)

Nice work Steve [smiley=peanuts05.gif]

John

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by JBzen on 01/14/23 at 13:20:19

A thought...those signal caps at the input...why loop and solder to the lugs? Create a sesspool of eddy current? Would it be better to tube and tie?

[smiley=icqlite19.png]

John

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Steve Deckert on 01/18/23 at 01:38:47

Great Question!

The reason it's done is for strength during shipping.  These Miflex caps have wonderful leads that make certain things possible in this type of wiring that a thinner leaded cap couldn't do.  

My experience with eddy currents is that they in themselves are not an issue, it's when eddy currents from different sources intermingle in the same piece of steel.  Even then it's not the end of the world, look at how things were made in the 50's and 60's with the chassis itself being the ground for everything.  Of course those amps didn't sound like these either.   Eddy currents are hard to understand since you really can't see them, so it's always better to avoid the issue altogether.  We don't have eddy currents in this situation really, just an enlarged field that doesn't mix with anything else and is in 3D space with enough air around it to have no effect on anything.

Steve




Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Steve Deckert on 01/18/23 at 01:53:53


Tonight I am still breaking in this sample, but you'll be happy to know that production has started on the first one #001 and that amp will probably be finished by Wed and then we will start #002 and so on.

Back in the early 1990's when I got the bug for audio from working in a hi-fi store I had the pleasure of working with a gentleman named Tim Hagen whom I became friends with.  Now 30 years later we have reunited and are doing weekly listening sessions.  Tonight we listened to this new amp on the House Speakers.  The amplifier was using Cyrotone output tubes, input tube, and rectifier.

The sound of this system is just sick. And I mean that in a good way ; )

Here is a track that left us both dumstruck with this combination.  As far as recording/mastering quality and imaging this is an 11 out of 10.



Any Decware amp can do it, so if you have the time to trip on what is possible in a sound stage than you'll like this track.  :)

-Steve





Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Steve Deckert on 01/18/23 at 02:33:54


The Sarah 300B amplifier will be at AXPONA this year!  Don Thomas of Wathen Audiophile / Cyrotone will have models SEWE300B and TORII JRv2 in their room.  


The room number is 612.

It is right across from the elevators and around the corner from LTA.

Among the Wathen speakers will be the Inertia Cubes and the new CryoTone Dipole flagship speakers. Both sound fantastic with Decware equipment.

Sarah and Veronica may also pop in and hand out coupons to attendees for the new amplifier!  




























Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Kamran on 01/18/23 at 03:05:41

[quote] The Sarah 300B amplifier will be at AXPONA this year! [/unquote]

Wow! I see the waitlist exponentially increasing again!

Is this Decware’s first time at an audio show like this?

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Steve Deckert on 01/20/23 at 00:18:33


We are simply supporting Don at Wathen Audiophile / Cryotone by adding some amps to their room.  So we're not doing the show, so to speak, and yes we have done a show with our own room in the past and while it went great the Twin Towers were blown up on the way home and everyone forgot about audio for awhile.  We decided after that that we would be money better spent to host our own show and that is when DECFEST started.

We plan to make some coupons for show goers that would apply a discount for either of the two amps that we will be sending. Don will have them in his room.








Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Steve Deckert on 01/20/23 at 01:06:23


As you know we have the Western Electric coupons in hand, but equally compelling is that Wathen Audiophile / Cryotone has just completed a tube bundle for SEWE300B amp like they have been doing for all of our amplifiers.





https://wathenspeakers.com/store/p133/Decware_CryoTone_Tube_Bundle_for_the_Zen_Sarah%2C_SEWE300B.html


It's my job to roll tubes in this amp, so I listen to lots of combinations and everything is good.  I have my favorites like anyone and in the top 2 or 3 pics you'll always find Cryotones in my stash and that's when you just put a few in the amp.  Doing a complete bundle is in fairness the only way to really hear the maximum potential of the Cryotone process.  

So far with my collection of Cryotones tubes across our many products the common denominator is a sound that tends to be bolder, slightly more forward, richer and with a bit more punch and blacker backgrounds.  As wonderful as this sounds it isn't for everyone, and some system/room combos would be less tolerant of it while others would thrive because of it.

I am just thankful that while many of todays N.O.S. tubes are actually yesterdays rejects because we're getting down to the bottom of the barrel that we have a new option, Cryotone.  Something new, and hand cherry picked and tested seven ways from Sunday before you ever see it, not to mentioned real human phone support by the guy that can do something about it... kinda like you when you call me at Decware.












Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by DLM on 01/20/23 at 21:17:22

Steve,
I hope this isn't a stupid question... can a SEWE300B be ordered from you without tubes and then order the bundle from Don @ Wathen and have that bundle shipped to you during build phase to be tested with the amp ?
Just wondering if you would approve of this if logistically it can be sync'd up.
Thanks,

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Tony on 01/20/23 at 22:22:37

Steve may add more to this, but looking at the online order form, you can purchase without tubes.  

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Steve Deckert on 01/21/23 at 00:06:16


The amp can be purchased without tubes, yes  

Having Cryotone tubes shipped here and unpacked, stored, tested in the amp, repacked and reshipped is not needed because Don of Cryotone cherry pics the tubes before he sends them to you. We wouldn't be promoting these tubes if it were any other way.  Having Don grade and test these tubes is the same thing as having me do it.

If you want tubes tested in your actual amplifier you'll have to buy the stock tube compliment from me.  Also, anyone planning to invest in an amplifier like this should have a full spare tube compliment on hand for troubleshooting and backup. If a backup tube compliment is out of your budget then probably so is the amp. This would be true for all tube amps.

98% of all amp troubleshooting phone calls and emails are the result of tubes acting up and are from people who don't have any backup tubes. Usually the calls and emails number at least two or three of each and several days or more before new tubes are purchased and then the problem goes away.

It is possible for new tubes to fail weeks or months into the game. It happens. It is also possible for new tubes to just one day develop a noise, a hum, a pop, or any number of other symptoms. When you have a spare tube set and you know this going in, you solve you own problem without but a few minutes of your time, no emails, no phone calls, no surprise expense because you already own them.

We are trying to build 2000 amplifiers right now and doing things that generate more emails and phone calls wouldn't be ideal.


-Steve

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by spyder1 on 01/21/23 at 00:43:24

"When you have a spare tube set and you know this going in, you solve you own problem without but a few minutes of your time, no emails, no phone calls, no surprise expense because you already own them."  

Steve Deckert

**Anyone who is considering ownership of a vacuum tube amplifier, needs to consider the cost of ownership. {Replacement Tube Sets}

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Kamran on 01/21/23 at 00:55:14

I can relate to that. When my KT77’s went noisy, I just switched to KT88s so there was no drop in service so to speak (and i have at least two different pairs of 6V6 tubes for further protection).  At this point, I don’t intend to buy spare tubes for my current amp given how I’m line for the 300b, but will ensure have spare sets for the future amp.  For the 300b itself, my spare will be the cheaper Chinese version.

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Lon on 01/22/23 at 16:44:47

Breaking in these red-tipped 6N6P tubes has been fun. They are a near perfect tube for my Monoblocks, just lacking a bit of body to the bass sound.

I bet that will not be the problem in the SEWE300B. Looking forward to trying them out in that amp! I have many other pairs of excellent tubes that could be a contender in those spots. I suspect that the SEWE300B will be as much as a chameleon in tube-rolling aspects as my SE84UFO3 Monoblocks are. I can create so many "sounds" with these.

I have many tubes that can serve as "spares" for me in the SEWE300B, the only tubes of the full complement I won't have duplicates of are the 300B tubes themselves. I have one pair ready to go, and if I can't swing a pair of WE300B for a while I
ll get a cheap pair of 300B as spares (which I probably won't need).

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Lon on 02/13/23 at 16:25:03

A lot of SEWE300B activity going on in the "factory"!

2021-07-14 15:20:37      Glen H.      MN      1      SEWE300B      African Padauk      120V      Stock Unit - No Options      Quality Control

2021-07-15 16:22:25      Dr. Benjamin W.      Switzerland      1      SEWE300B      Walnut      230V      Stock Unit - No Options      Quality Control

2021-07-16 09:21:19      Malcolm P.      VA      1      SEWE300B      Walnut      120V      Stock Unit - No Options      Quality Control

2021-07-18 04:34:52      Todd F.      HI      1      SEWE300B      Walnut      120V      Stock Unit - No Options      Testing

2021-07-18 19:14:33      Scott V.      OH      1      SEWE300B      African Padauk      120V      Stock Unit - No Options      On Bench


Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Steve Deckert on 02/16/23 at 23:24:20


The first few SEWE300B amps have been built.  Things were going along swimmingly...



We came up with this idea to print a map of the tube layout on the transformer since the silk screen company failed twice to get things centered.




Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Steve Deckert on 02/16/23 at 23:31:41



I was pretty happy with the final result.  Then we suddenly couldn't get the same end bells for the transformer and the new ones wrap around the core making it impossible to print the map on the top without shrinking it way down and even then it looks crowded...

That set my mood for a good part of the day.  Since the foreseeable future holds no chance of the original end bells becoming available, we have to find a way to make the new style work.

The only way to make the new style work is to change the printing.  Delete the map, go back to the logo.







Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Steve Deckert on 02/16/23 at 23:40:28





So this what they look like now.  The first few, including the one for the AXPONA show and the one for Steve Gutttenburg, will become rare collectors pieces.

This one, with the new logo makes the wrap around end bells visually work... but that got me to thinking what would happen if instead of trying not to see the wrap around end bells they became the focal point?


Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Steve Deckert on 02/16/23 at 23:45:25


So I came up with this...



And I will be adding this pricier version to the shopping cart as an option on the amplifier in late March.  When we get one built with this, I'll post the pictures here and then update the web site.

Steve






Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by HockessinKid on 02/16/23 at 23:46:46

Sorry to hear about this development.

How about including a poster with each Sarah 300B amplifier. Use the picture of the amp with Sarah's reflection on the rectifier on top and the tube layout design on the bottom. Heck I'd pay some extra coin to put that up in my listening room. Just a thought.

HK


Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by 4krow on 02/16/23 at 23:52:55

I have only tiny bit of experience with not so much silk screening, but laser engraving. The person that I use makes me wonder just how or why she decided to get into this business. I try to lay out everything so there is no trouble and talk briefly about my expectations, just to do a head slap when it is done.

 Steve, I don't know much about this new amp, but I have mostly appreciated your design skills in the way of making something look special. This one is really a winner. Th layout looks to be perfect for me. When I build stuff that is part of the task, and some of my stuff really needed to be on the bottom shelf of a system where it couldn't be seen well.

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Doug on 02/17/23 at 04:32:44

Those shiny caps are really sharp looking! 

Are they made of highly polished copper?

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Tooppy on 02/17/23 at 10:03:46

Steve, that is a real winning design, if only you could have done it on my UFU-2 !!

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Mannytheseacow on 02/17/23 at 18:28:23

How about an option for no printing at all?  I prefer a clean simple look myself.

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Kamran on 02/23/23 at 02:32:36

Missed the last month of updates—totally forgot that this thread was moved. And here I thought I was going to revive it….

Comments:

It’s a real bummer that the tube schematic cannot be printed on the transformer—that did look pretty cool.  Not quite sure how I feel about the alternative solution just yet.  Need to visualize it on a completed amp with all tubes inserted to have a better grasp of the overall look.

Speaking of completed amps…has any unit shipped to a customer yet?

Also, it would be fun to know when the review unit ships to Guttenberg—so we can gauge how long he takes to review.  That may actually elicit more orders than the unit destined for Axpona.



Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Catfood on 02/23/23 at 03:16:29

My preference would be to have a plain transformer without any logos or writing.

As for Guttenberg's review, I had a brief conversation with him back in 2018, and he said his reviews usually take 3-6 months depending on what it is, other equipment being reviewed at the same time, other obligations, etc.  Hopefully he still has his Cornwalls for the Sarah to drive, or at least his Pure Audio Project open baffle speakers if they're sensitive enough.

One thing's for sure, if he publishes a positive review the amplifier waiting list is going to get a lot longer.  It's already at 2 years give or take.  I'm glad I already ordered mine  :)

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Lon on 02/24/23 at 00:27:55

Kamran, it seems at least one SEWE300B has been shipped to a customer, this week.

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Kamran on 02/24/23 at 14:46:29

Thanks for the update Lon—exciting times!  Hopefully, we will get to hear from the lucky first customer soon!

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by kulafu on 02/24/23 at 15:32:33

Before I contact Decware, does anyone know if the 10% is refundable in the event something unforeseeble happens?

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Lon on 02/24/23 at 15:36:32

The refunding was known to happen in the past, but reading the info on the site now I am not certain that is now the policy. I would contact Decware for the best answer.

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Ghostship on 02/24/23 at 15:39:25

Yep, two retail units have shipped and four more are built and in the Testing or Quality Control phase. One of those may be delayed...I really have a thing for copper, and those transformer endcaps make it damned sexy...

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by kulafu on 02/24/23 at 23:31:19

Thanks Lon, I found the answer to my refund question under the terms and conditions.  Order placed.  Now for the lonnnngggg wait!

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Steve Deckert on 02/25/23 at 18:08:25





Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Steve Deckert on 02/25/23 at 18:12:39




Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Steve Deckert on 02/25/23 at 18:12:58






Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Steve Deckert on 02/25/23 at 18:13:41





Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Steve Deckert on 02/25/23 at 18:13:57





Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Steve Deckert on 02/25/23 at 18:14:20





Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Steve Deckert on 02/25/23 at 18:15:02





Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Catfood on 02/25/23 at 18:37:38

Wow!  But...you forgot to put Sarah's reflection in the bottle.  What's the cost for that option?

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by DrewDays34 on 02/26/23 at 16:51:47

It's. so. BEAUTIFUL! I'm not sure if it's possible, but can you imagine how amazing this would be with a black top/base!? :o

I've always been a sucker for black and copper/gold/rose gold. Say it's possible, Steve!

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Kamran on 03/10/23 at 02:52:00

Steve Guttenberg has Sarah in for review…and he showed it off.

https://youtu.be/igwSyIuYbGg

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Kamran on 03/11/23 at 16:46:57


eliminate duplicates online

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by jec3504 on 03/12/23 at 01:46:44

Steve Guttenberg is rolling tubes. Cryotone tubes in, that amp is never leaving Brooklyn.

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Kamran on 03/14/23 at 00:22:16

https://youtu.be/or607VzkxEw

6 minutes in—-he drops another sneak peak and says “Phenomenal Amplifier”!

My spidey sense is screaming that the full review is imminent.  

jec3504– I concur and have a strong suspicion Steve has fallen head over heals and ain’t sending it back…

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Kamran on 03/18/23 at 01:28:45

So after refreshing Guttenberg’s YouTube feed like a thousand times (even though I had notifications on), he finally posted a new video, but it was about Viewer Systems. Sigh…

I couldn’t contain myself and finally asked him when the Sarah reviewing was dropping and he replied:

“A few weeks”

So the wait continues, but the timing is like a perfect storm…if his review drops before Axpona (which I think it will), then there will be an increased interest at the Wathen booth.

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Lowell on 03/18/23 at 17:56:27

Did somebody say 300b?

This is my first post and I have read through this entire thread.  I’ve been looking at other output tube alternatives, (WE310A) for my next/complimentary amp, but ultimately decided to place myself on the waitlist a couple weeks back.

Like many of you, heard of Steve and his posse some 20 years back in other DIY forums, but never dipped my toes into owning low powered SET.  This was when I was trying to figure out how to get some Edgarhorns (RIP Dr B.E.!) in my bachelor townhome…back then I just couldn’t fit them so I let that ship sail and decided to absorb domesticated life :).

Fast forward and sort of settling down onto that certain corner in 2 channel listening, decided to add some glow to the night sessions with tubes.  Even though I know the wait will be incredible, but already so fruitful with Steve providing almost play-by-play-like knowledge and updates, I picked up a one of a kind, Dynakit ST70 for nostalgia with all the original black cat caps, match quad EL34s - beautiful vintage sound ;-). This will have to tie me over till my # is called for my WESE300B.  Very happy to have gotten the nudge to push me over the fence on this…


Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by JBzen on 03/18/23 at 18:08:08

Welcome Lowell! I am on the edge of changing my order to Sarah thru Sarah 8-)

John

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Kamran on 03/18/23 at 19:26:47

Welcome Low325!  You’re not alone with getting a stand in amp, while waiting for your respective Decware order. I’m in the same boat.  This forum is a great place to make connections, learn, and make tweaks to get your rig ready for the big day!

John—I am super excited that you’re finally considering Sarah—swing it!

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by JBzen on 03/18/23 at 20:49:49

Don’t get to excited there is probably 3 years to change my mind again and again and again…… [smiley=tunes57.gif]

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Catfood on 03/18/23 at 22:56:38

At the rate they're going, 3 years probably is a reasonable estimate.

And, during those 3 years the Sarah may undergo additional changes, and there may be another 2 or 3 new models to choose from.

Title: Re: Sarah's Home!
Post by mperdue63 on 03/20/23 at 20:26:04



host a picture[img]" alt="" border="0" />

Just off the UPS truck.

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Low325 on 03/20/23 at 20:50:19

Congrats!  Looks good….what color is the wood btw?

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by mperdue63 on 03/20/23 at 20:52:31

Base is Walnut, top plate is Khaki, tan!

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Lon on 03/20/23 at 20:56:38

Congrats! Please keep us posted with impressions.

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Sean on 03/20/23 at 23:24:13

Congrats!!!

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by jec3504 on 03/20/23 at 23:50:29

Congratulations let the fun begin!

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Kamran on 03/21/23 at 01:19:01

Congratulations!!! So so happy for ya! Looking forward to your impressions!

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by PDXDrew on 03/21/23 at 01:52:33

Whoa- very nice.... when you get some time can you please describe the rest of your system and what other amps you have or had in the past that you can compare to.

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Tony on 03/21/23 at 02:52:25


That is one very nice-looking Sarah.  Like everyone, I look forward to hearing your impression.  Congratulations.

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by joralieu on 03/21/23 at 13:43:43

Just curious, anyone no the reason for mounting the tube sockets on the topside?

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Lon on 03/21/23 at 13:49:49

I don't know. I like it!

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Low325 on 03/22/23 at 18:44:20

I think this was mentioned in page 15, but if you run a Sarah in Mono, is the output power doubled to 8-14wpc? And would the tubes life expectancy burn at double the rate (even though the life of a 300b is rated for a long time)

But also most importantly; sound.  Not sure if there has ever been 2 Sarahs run in mono on the bench…

Just me being curious… ;)

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by CAJames on 03/22/23 at 19:49:29


Quote:
Posted by: Low325      Posted on: Today at 10:44:20

I think this was mentioned in page 15, but if you run a Sarah in Mono, is the output power doubled to 8-14wpc?


That is correct.


Quote:
And would the tubes life expectancy burn at double the rate (even though the life of a 300b is rated for a long time)


No. Tubes run the same, you're just using two tubes per channel instead of one for twice the power.


Quote:
But also most importantly; sound.  Not sure if there has ever been 2 Sarahs run in mono on the bench


I think it would be mostly the same, just more watts. Now, if you were to use them as balanced mono blocs (like I did with my UFOs) and you have a quality balanced source, then I think you may very well get more of stuff like detail and dynamics. But you're right, I'm pretty sure no one has heard a pair of Sarahs. I encourage you to be the first!



Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Ghostship on 03/23/23 at 16:54:13

"Just a note to let you know the status of your SEWE300B order has been updated to: Shipped"

Man, those 598 days flew by....I am finally allowing myself to get excited!!

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Lon on 03/23/23 at 17:00:02

Congrats! Can't wait for your impressions!

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Kamran on 03/30/23 at 19:17:49

Andrew Robinson reviewed a bunch of Schitt products today and compared the Aegir to his beloved Decware SE84UFO25.  The Decware amp came out on top.  Someone in the comments mentioned if he was going to get the Sarah 300b in for review—I’ve screenshotted his response:




Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Lon on 03/30/23 at 19:25:58

Wow. That's an interesting statement and yes, I see lots of shade tossed Decware's way due to the length of the waiting list (as if they are doing something shady. . . ?)

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Kamran on 03/30/23 at 20:26:42

I think it’s a bit unfair.  It’s a small company where quality is paramount over quantity.  It is what it is.  You can review the product and let people know that there is a long wait and leave it up to them to decide whether they want to wait or not.

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Catfood on 03/31/23 at 00:25:07

I think its perfectly fair.  What irks me most is not that the wait is so long, it's that they charge a nonrefundable deposit at the time of ordering.  It costs them zero to put you on the waiting list.  They don't incur any cost until it's time to pull parts for your order, so they shouldn't be requiring ANY deposit until shortly before that.  And there's no guarantee that 2 years from now their current lineup of amps will still be available.  By the time your order is up for parts pulling, you may have to choose something else that you don't really want or sacrifice your deposit.

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Kamran on 03/31/23 at 02:42:43

With all due respect—-I see it differently.  I don’t fault Decware for requiring some skin in the game to have (or at least attempt to have) serious buyers on the list.  Otherwise, a free for all would make the list much larger than it already is—full of ppl who are just putting their name and not really interested in buying.  This will make it logistically harder for the small business to manage.  It takes a human to enter and manage all these names and deal with customer service requests.  

Most, if not all, prospective Decware customers know what they are in for.  Nobody is putting a proverbial gun to our heads to get in line for such a long time. As long as Andrew flags that—it’s up to his viewers to decide whether that wait is worth their time and money.  His stance is that it impacts him negatively because his viewers will have issue with him reviewing a product that has an extended wait time and make it worse..ergo Decware should fix it—-is a bit bonkers to me.  If anything, he would be lucky to be one of few YouTubers  to get access to this special amp  and that will only add to his channels cache. He is trying to take a moral high ground—where none exists.  Don’t get me wrong—He is one of my favorite reviewers—I just disagree with his stance on this particular subject.

My 2 cents.

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Rivieraranch on 03/31/23 at 03:31:57

Drew Robinson should work his side of the street and let DECWARE work theirs.

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Catfood on 03/31/23 at 05:27:03

Some good points, Kamran.

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Ghostship on 03/31/23 at 13:10:31

So....Andrew Robinson reviews a different Decware amp and continues to mention these amps in other reviews, all the while knowing that there was a lengthy waiting list without any reservations. But now all of a sudden he grows a conscience and believes he's performing some sort of public service?

My first questions are: was he offered the use of a Sarah 300B to conduct a review but turned down the offer? Did he request one and was denied? Is he butt-hurt because his competitor Steve Guttenberg was able to review the amp but not him?

It's hard for me to form an opinion without some more facts...but on the face of it I respect Mr. Robinson less now.

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Rivieraranch on 03/31/23 at 13:41:28

What the hell is Steve supposed to do? Build a new factory? Have three 8 hour shifts at the plant? Maybe Drew Robinson wants to come over and sling some solder.

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Lon on 03/31/23 at 13:56:09

Personally I expect Steve to make important changes slowly and surely to expedite in a controlled manner. I may be wrong, but I can't help but think that he "thinks on these things" (to quote a book title of a work that was important to me). Still small changes can help but not destroy the backlog--it's way too large and growing. The sad aftereffects of strategic gushing reviews--and to some extent a global pandemic.

It does create a dliemna. When I see persons on another board ask about SET amps and tube amps they want to get I hesitate and in most cases refrain from recommending Decware. . . because these people expect to have a change made in weeks or a month or two, and are not going to be inclined to wait two years or maybe more. And darn it, you know that a Decware product is exactly what would be great for them. But why call attention to the wait list. . . on other forums I've seen that just lead to insults and total nonsense about Steve and the company. And though we cognoscenti can ignore that, as we know disinformation does damage.


Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Low325 on 03/31/23 at 15:01:12

AR put the hook line out there for Decware [or other] to pay the AR ‘fee’ or whatever it is…to me i see this as a slimy tactic, and this is just how I see most YT channels.

This is just my opinion, and have totally asked YT to stop sending me his vids years ago, lol

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Rivieraranch on 03/31/23 at 22:14:57

What are you talking about?

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by HockessinKid on 03/31/23 at 22:33:39

I really don't give much credence to audio equipment reviewers. Most of the magazines review insanely priced systems and measurements just don't translate to great sound IMHO. The only reviewer I enjoyed reading was the late Art Dudley, who started Listener Magazine and then wrote/edited for Stereophile.

I find a lot of insights and listening observations from equipment owners to be more grounded, especially for online equipment companies. I also find small boutique company owners, like Steve, offer an incredible resource in helping make a decision.

Cheers,

HK





Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Edsonic on 04/04/23 at 13:58:18


I am actually a bit perplexed that any Decware amplifier is being sent out for review at this time, given the current situation.

When the lockdown hit, thousands of companies had no idea how that would affect their business and most, understandably, expected the worst.

Steve explained that he had not sought a review for a long time because of prior bad experience (explained some time earlier), but in expectation of sinking demand and slowing orders (as did everybody else) he decided to try the review venture once again. Seemingly no one anticipated that all that time at home would effectively mean all that time on the internet, where money could still be spent, and many hours available to look for new places to spend it.

Everybody on the forums at that time (or soon after) knows what happened next.

I think it should be obvious by now that the current order status constitutes a new paradigm, 'the new normal,' and not just a temporary bump in orders. I understand (unlike some others) that ramping up production does not happen overnight. This (Decware) is Peoria, not Chicagoland, 150 miles NE. Even aside the existing labor shortage most everywhere, capable techs aren't coming out of the woodwork in such a location.

Which makes it all the more perplexing that a stratagem used to ramp up business when it was thought to be needed (again, understandably so at the time), and succeeded so famously in that endeavor, is still being used even when the business is now overwhelmed by ever increasing saturation of new orders.

With out getting into any speculative extrania regarding ethics, morality, or other melodrama musings -


It just makes no sense, plain and simple.





Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by DrewDays on 04/04/23 at 16:22:17

I understand where you're coming from, edsonic.

However, I have 0 issues with Steve sending products out for reviews. Steve and co deserve recognition for their hard work and designs. I have a long wait ahead of me, but I knew that going in. Can't wait to get my Sarah.

Arguments in regard to ethics and morality are ridiculous. Decware is very transparent about wait times. No one is forcing anyone to click the buy. If someone isn't happy with the wait, that's ok. They can move on to something that's more readily available.

Cheers,
Drew

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Low325 on 04/06/23 at 00:51:14


Quote:
Posted by: CAJames      Posted on: 03/22/23 at 19:49:29

I think it would be mostly the same, just more watts. Now, if you were to use them as balanced mono blocs (like I did with my UFOs) and you have a quality balanced source, then I think you may very well get more of stuff like detail and dynamics. But you're right, I'm pretty sure no one has heard a pair of Sarahs. I encourage you to be the first!  


If I can get Steve and Sarah to autograph/sign them both that would be great!  :D

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Lon on 04/17/23 at 13:42:14

I'm hoping those who have the amp at home now will start weighing in with impressions and experiences!

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Lon on 04/17/23 at 13:53:51

On the Hoffman forum they're still bashing Steve and his business practices and the latest attack is oddly on the output transformers he designed and uses.

"They're too small to be effective." They claim the conventional wisdom is air-gapped transformers for SET amps should be much larger. As if all of us using amps with these transformers are experiencing terrible defective sound.

I'm doing my best to hold off and not respond. I'm accused of having a "financial interest" in Decware because I respond against misinformation and insults about the company. I guess it's a bad thing now to stand up for the truth and respect. Sigh. I guess they're all happy with their cheaper and/or more conventional amps. More, I think they're jealous.

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by DrewDays on 04/17/23 at 14:15:17

Lon,

I lack the technical knowledge to know if what they're saying has merit. All I know is I'm extremely happy with my Decware gear/sound. I've come across forums bashing Decware.

It's amazing how childish some people in the hi-fi space can be. I suppose it's just human nature.

Cheers,
Drew

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Lon on 04/17/23 at 14:25:37

Yes Drew, I think the real problem as is so true in many fields today is a "closed mind." Sure, conventionally it seems the transformers were larger. But in so many fields old methods change and new ideas lead to differing products and processes. Steve has an open mind for new audio ideas and methods and it probably scares and puts off those with minds more closed. We know these transformers are not lacking in any way and may be in fact better transformers than "conventional" ones in this use.

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Low325 on 04/18/23 at 04:31:22

Did Sarah make it out to Axpona? If so, did anyone get to hear it?

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Steve Deckert on 04/20/23 at 21:24:57


The amp did make it to AXPONA in room 612 where the new Cryotone speakers were debuted.  Both the speakers and the amplifier were a big hit.

Several manufactures approached me about using our amplifiers in their rooms for next year.  That should tell you something. : )


Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Steve Deckert on 04/20/23 at 21:33:49


As for the Hoffman forum it goes without saying that I am a little disappointed that this is still going on.  Not surprised, but disappointed.

On the other hand people freaked out about the waiting list I can certainly understand.  I have prepared a statement regarding our waiting list that will hopefully be of some use.



The DECWARE WAITING LIST.


Decware is a small boutique company that creates hand made amplifiers and loudspeakers of an exceptional level and sells them wholesale to the public.  This has been our business model since 1996 when we went online with www.decware.com

During the past 25 years Decware has never had to advertise, the success came from word of mouth from satisfied customers in over 54 countries.

Our business and products evolved around a consistent pool of orders that averaged 100 people at any given time.  The wait time to get an amplifier ran around 10 ~ 12 weeks.

Decware has been a well kept secret for 25 years until Covid 19 hit in 2020.  No business at that time knew what the future held. We have an obligation to not only our employees and contractors, but to our customers whom we extend indefinite after sale support too.

So in an effort to make sure our sales didn’t decline during the pandemic, we sent our 2 watt Zen Triode amplifiers out for review which basically let the cat out of the bag. Our order list doubled and then tripled in only months while people were trapped indoors with nothing to do but listen to their hifi rigs. In the two years since that time it has continued to grow to insane numbers — now over 2000 people on it despite the fact that we have doubled our production the first year and then doubled it again this year.

We will continue to hand build these amps with a lifetime warranty vs. mass producing them using circuit boards like most manufactures.  That means that the wait time is not going to change any time in the near future.  

We are charging a 10% non-refundable deposit with full disclosure and access to our real time build list.  This is because:

Despite what you might think it actually does cost a fair amount of money to enter your order with all the custom options and get those parts made.  Many orders involve several emails and or phone calls where we spend time helping you select the best gear for your situation at the time of your order and again as the situation changes during the wait.  

Without a deposit the list would explode in size with people who wish to hold a place on the list until the very end and then often cancel their order.  We don’t have the time or the manpower to cover all the phone calls and emails associated with a 2 year wait just to cancel it.  The ones who complain online about this are the very ones who would do it.

We will make sure your order was worth the long wait.

Orders can be changed without loosing your place in the list.  As well, if we come out with a newer version of the item you ordered, you will automatically be upgraded at no additional cost as this has always been our policy.

Reviews will continue to occasionally happen because those who are on the list enjoy having some confirmation that what they are waiting for is the best.

For those of you who have irreconcilable issues with the fact that our list is so long — you are invited to do something about it by bringing yourself to Decware with soldering iron in hand and seeing if you have what it takes to join our team.





Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Lon on 04/20/23 at 21:35:42

Great post Steve, thanks.

It just goes from worse to worse on that thread about the SEWE300B in the Hoffman forum. I've withdrawn from it and hope to stay away.

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by mperdue63 on 04/20/23 at 21:36:07

Amen!

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Lon on 04/21/23 at 15:02:05

As I suspected Steve's post about the wait list was posted on the Hoffman thread and it just added fuel to the fire.

Jealousy and insecurity seem to rule the anti-Decware crowd. Sigh. We know better and are fortunate.

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by BlackBess on 04/21/23 at 16:58:50

Wow, did Mr. Deckert just openly invite clowns like me to attempt to assemble their own 300B masterpiece? I think I’d have to update my iron, I solder so infrequently that I still use one that I got for a Heathkit metronome build in the early ‘70’s. But I think I’d be better suited to installing heat shrink tubing with a heatgun. Who am I fooling, Steve probably wouldn’t want me working a broom at his place.  Just the rambling thoughts of someone still on page 7.


As goofy as I am, my money still spends, Ralph

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Same Old DD on 04/21/23 at 17:33:44

Love that pic!
;D
I'm pretty sure that his tongue was deeply embedded in his cheek as he wrote that and yet made the announcement worldwide that some qualified help would be considered.

I do better with a shovel than a broom (horticultural enthusiast) and heat shrinkedness is next to Godliness in my book.
My old '60s era Weller iron I bought used as a teen still works like a champ!
I have replaced the power cable on it about twenty years ago and the soldering tip about fifty times, but not a single missed step that was not my own. I could solder a battery cable with that beast.
8-)
Yes, I also have a very small, low power, low voltage, delicate pencil type iron from the '90s that I use also, but I've only had to replace the tip twice on that little piece of jewelry.

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by 4krow on 04/21/23 at 19:01:12

 I do just a tiny bit of DIY stuff. Usually for myself, and many times I end up selling it. I love to build, so that is the way things go on. What almost no one seems to realize is that making even one kit or design, takes incredible patience for me. Just one point of every build is the soldering. Prepping the wire, and making sure that you didn't forget to put the heatshrink on first, takes time. Funny thing is, that even if you get it all right, it doesn't always look professional. Most people don't even know what they are looking at, or what to look for during/after these builds.
So, what I am trying to relay is, I cannot in my wildest imagination, wrap my head around how much energy alone it must take to make, not dozens, but hundreds of products on a yearly basis. Then as if it is magic or maybe a curse, to have that amplified by word of mouth over time.
Seems like there should be a time and pause just to breath. Can't serve everybody forever.

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Low325 on 04/21/23 at 19:54:13

I was born with a soldering iron in my hand…!  My dad is/was a double E.  And he was the community fixit guy…so I took a lot of my DIY after him.

I used to solder wires directly to D cell batteries to car bulbs i took from my dad’s tool shed, in between, a standard switch so I can have a flashlight during blackouts….

Or take apart my Stompers Trucks (anyone remember those in the 80s?) to pull out the motor, solder it up wires and light bulbs (again - taken from my dads tool shed) and hook it up to my bike wheel to generate voltage back to my “new” bike headlight…:P

Ahh, those were the times…. Now im just a grumpy dude working in a software company…sigh.

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Sean on 04/22/23 at 02:10:41

Stompers! Stompers! 4x4! Yes, I remember them well. However, the path you took was the opposite of mine. The day I learned to use a screw driver to REMOVE screws, that was my dad's worst nightmare. I took everything apart, I had to see how things worked. If I couldn't put it back together, I shoved it in the back of the kitchen junk drawer. Let's just say I had lot's of explaining to do. I'm still hiding things I can't fix, because someday maybe I'll figure it out.

I'm good enough to make my own cables, crossovers or simple stuff but showing up at Steve's would only slow the whole thing down while I shove mistakes into drawers!

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Steve Deckert on 04/22/23 at 03:13:47



Quote:
and making sure that you didn't forget to put the heatshrink on first, takes time


Amen and laughed my ass off.

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Steve Deckert on 04/22/23 at 04:08:11





Yes, this is the sticking point because the only way to really achieve a shorter waiting list at this point is to make gear that doesn't sound as good. Addressing these issues is something you would say to a factory that mass produces product. We can't mass produce it, we can't use circuit boards. Decware is an artisan product that is hand made. That's why it sounds better.  In the land of hifi hand made point-to-point is largely unknown until you get into the 6 figure club of which there are very few members. Ironically those manufactures only build a couple amps a year so they have no where near the experience of Decware. As for new product development, that has been throttled way back since Covid 19 blew things up. But now there is a shift taking place because while our amplifier waiting list continues to lengthen as more and more people hear about it, several models on our speaker waiting list are delivering much sooner since we've expanded our woodworking capabilities.




Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Kamran on 04/22/23 at 23:12:19

You tell’’em Steve—Great post!

Also, glad you got to connect with Guttenberg one on one! I was wondering whether he stopped by the room. Any news when Sarah review part 2 is going to drop?


Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by DrewDays on 04/26/23 at 19:18:48

Addressing these issues is something you would say to a factory that mass produces product. We can't mass produce it, we can't use circuit boards. Decware is an artisan product that is hand made. That's why it sounds better.

This.

I think this is the main point people are overlooking. There are plenty of other companies people can look to if they want gear now and are unwilling to wait for an artisan product.

Decware is Decware because Decware is Decware. That's why I happily hopped on the waitlist for Steve and Co's 300B.

Cheers to Team Decware!
Thank you for all your hard work. [smiley=beer.gif]

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Kamran on 05/12/23 at 00:27:29

What the heck happened to the second part of Guttenberg’s Sarah review?

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Lon on 05/12/23 at 00:29:50

He's lost in the music.

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Kamran on 05/12/23 at 01:37:00

That must be it Lon!

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Low325 on 05/12/23 at 02:15:57

More importantly any forum folk want to share?

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Kamran on 05/12/23 at 03:10:39

Low325–you actually beat me to it.  I’d also love to hear from the lucky few who have received their respective Sarahs, to chime in with their experiences.

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Lon on 05/16/23 at 12:00:00

I'd really like to hear some owner reports as well.

I've made it to #107 or so on the list. I have been thinking ahead. . . one issue I saw was that I would have to do without a headphone amp in my main system (right at a time when I am using headphones more, as my wife just retired) as I have been using the pass through input connections on my Monoblocks to feed a headphone amp, and there is no such provision available with the SEWE300B . . .but. . . I seem to have solved that by buying a Bottlehead Foreplay III preamp for the audio visual system with two outputs so that I can add my PS Audio headphone amp to that system and free the CSP3 in that system now to use in the place of the ZTPRE in the main system when the SEWE300B arrives.  I'll be so ready when that amp arrives to give it the acid tests it will need to unseat my SEUFO3 Monoblocks. . . I LOVE those monoblocks.

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Tony on 05/16/23 at 15:13:33

Lon,

If I remember you have a CSP 3 and maybe still a CSP 2, I assume you had not planned to use either with the 300B.  Also, a comment from one of Steve's many 300B posts stated that the 300B did not (or might not) need a preamp accompaniment.  I know you are thinking about headphones, but when you report on your experience, I would be curious as to what you think about the benefit of a preamp.

You are looking good at #107.




Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Lon on 05/16/23 at 15:28:31

Honestly I can't imagine not using a preamp. So many times it is noted that a preamp is not necessary for one of these amps, but I find I always prefer the amp with one. I am going to break it in with one and unless it sounds off or weird I'll only later try it without one.

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Low325 on 05/16/23 at 16:17:28

I plan not to use a preamp with my Sarah(s).  My DAC has volume control and voltage adjustment as a ‘preamp’.  Pretty sure at some point my curiosity will get to me and I’ll try to satisfy the cat on this at least for me.

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Lon on 05/16/23 at 16:21:36

My DAC has volume control as well and I have a ZBIT as I use the balanced out. But. . .it sounds fantastic but even better with either of my great Decware preamps. That's where I'll start, and with the ZROCK2 as well.

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Low325 on 05/17/23 at 20:45:27

Fwiw, i recall reading SG’s comments where he thought the UFO25 was more transparent and the 300b was more robust.  Even though, its not my ears, and a very short memory recollection of his…this sort of aligns to the comments mentioned here that the 300b was more 2k res @60 fps and the UFO25 is like 4K res @30 FPS.  Well depends how you see it…

For those anxiously awaiting or are on the fence could be part of your decision - this could lead to some pre-expectations.  I’ll admit,  at times I do like every bit of detail in the music.  I love watching proper 4K content (not overly processed stuff)...it’s such a feast to see, but at times I find myself admiring over a bit too much the Pantone colors and lighting depths of 4K.  Then when you watch a lower res of the same content, you immediately notice it, but eventually you get back to the story telling.  I guess what I am saying is that, I’m personally trying to get something that sounds different to my current setup, but still is beautiful.  I know thats all subjective and how it’ll be hard to measure that threshold.  But I wont know till I try it in my room… and sometimes that can be difficult to do with all things considered…logistics, budget, WAF, time of day when the electricity sucks in the grid, etc.

Still looking forward to the folks who received theirs… it’s okay to say it ISNT to their liking…or wasnt to their expectations, and if so cant satisfy everyone and thats totally ok. 

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Lon on 06/07/23 at 16:03:47

I'm still waiting too. Eager to hear some user experiences with this amp!

I struggle with the TV monitor comparisons as I don't have and haven't any real experience with a 4K TV. I'm very interested in any comparisons between the UFO25 amps and the SEWE300B as I love to death my SE84UFO3 Monoblocks. I may not be able to keep both the Monoblocks and the SEWE300B when it has been broken in. I expect I may be facing a very hard choice!

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Junker on 06/10/23 at 19:05:00

Just wanted to respond to my one and only post on 12/29/22 that I placed an order today. I should have put it in a long time ago, but good things come to those who wait. Made by hand, made in the US, and made by someone who has so much experience and opportunity to refine these designs. The responsive and insightful reply to my post sealed the deal for me and now I can't wait. Really excited to run this on one of my 16ohm Altec pairs. (604 or Flamenco).

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Lon on 06/18/23 at 16:44:38

Congrats!

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Geno on 06/22/23 at 16:09:21

Lon,

I see that your amp has been listed as "parts pulled".

Looks like you will have a July baby 8-)

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Lon on 06/22/23 at 16:12:00

Maybe. Or August.

I was thinking a few months later. But I'm not disappointed.

Now I have to think of fuses and how to afford two. . . . Though I will wait until it's seasoned in and decide if it betters the Monoblocks . . .which are sounding fantastic right now.

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Kamran on 06/22/23 at 19:21:24

Wow! Congrats!

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Dominick on 06/23/23 at 05:57:52

That’s awesome Lon!!  We will be eagerly waiting for your feedback on the Sarah once it arrives.  

Dom

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Lon on 06/23/23 at 17:36:41

More crap on the Hoffman forum. Now there is one who works for another audio company saying there is no way and no proof that Steve designed the UFO transformers and it's awful he is taking credit for them, "bragging" about them. And if I furnish information about them and defend Steve, I'm someone who is just a shill for Decware and/or I need to "chill out" seriously.

ARGH.

I should give up, but I'm still battling misinformation and trashing.

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Same Old DD on 06/23/23 at 18:24:49

DAYuhm!

I kind of thought you had given up on that forum as I have.
I think you should identify the other audio company, personally.

Since we are all shills, no one would take our opinions seriously, right?

It really seems like bad form to dis' another with basically Zero Knowledge of the facts.
Let it go. Save your sanity for later. You might still need it.

Give them a big wet Bugs Bunny kiss on the forehead!
[smiley=tunes40.gif]

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Lon on 06/23/23 at 18:42:31

I have a "Listening to Jazz and Conversation" thread I started there and have been participating in for over seven years now I think--it's the best place on that forum. Don't have these sort of issues there.

I can't remember what company he said he worked for. . .I want to say Accuphase. He keeps suggesting that Steve ought to go circuit board. Shows what he knows about Steve.

I can't quit. I keep battling the misinformation and fake news about Decware. Can't stop. I try.

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Lon on 06/23/23 at 19:30:27

And now my amp is "On the Bench!"

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Kamran on 06/24/23 at 02:17:31

Woohoo! Positive thoughts Lon! So excited for ya!

I was wondering if part 2 of Steve G’s Sarah review was just cancelled and nobody got the memo, but he confirmed today that it’s coming soon.  Though I am slightly annoyed he keeps over emphasizing the ‘it’s only 7 wpc and it does not get loud’ bit.

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Bottlehead on 06/24/23 at 03:15:01

Anxiously awaiting your comparison between the 300B and your UFO3s, Lon. And I know that I'm not alone.

Randy

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Lon on 06/24/23 at 11:01:07

I haven't even listened to his Part 1. I'm not into youtube videos. What I would really really like to read is impressions from others who have Decware systems . . . that would tell me the most about this amp.

I'll certainly share my impressions. . . here. I'm really enjoying my three systems now. Right now I'm watching AppleTV into my Oppo UDP-205 into a ZBIT and a ZROCK2 with Jupiter cap Anniversary Mods into my CSP3 with the Jupiter cap Anniversary Mods and Sennheiser HD800S. Excellent sound.

The sad thing is I think I'm going to have to pit the SEWE300B against the Monoblocks and I probably won't be able to keep both. Winner take all. A both enviable and sad situation to have . . . especially as I think the SEWE300B may win, and I love the Monoblocks so much--and have so many f'in tubes for them!

The one last remaining factor that I have hanging over my head is whether Steve will be able to introduce the Treble Cut Circuit into the SEWE300B as I've requested as an option. I think that may make or break the competition!

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Low325 on 06/24/23 at 16:48:27


Quote:
Though I am slightly annoyed he keeps over emphasizing the ‘it’s only 7 wpc and it does not get loud’ bit.


Steve G tends to put those things out there that can be perceived as negatives to many of the gear he reviews, but are they really?  It’s subtle, but from seasoned hobbyists, we should take these as understanding the limits of said gear and/or synergize them the right components.   We can assume what parameters he’s taking into account; speaker sensitivity, db level listening levels, music genre, source, room size/treatments, etc…

For what its worth, yes I get annoyed at SG’s comments on it as well lol!

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by jjgasp on 06/24/23 at 17:43:29

I've had my Sarah 300B for a few weeks.  I don't even want to tell you how many amplifiers/gear I've cycled through over the last few years.  The journey took me full circle.  My GAS led me to the dead end of highly resolving, inefficient/low sensitivity power hungry speakers that required massive wattage.  Yes, I could hear every instrument with pinpoint accuracy, blah, blah, blah... but in the end the music felt empty and lifeless and I found myself listening to less music or basically had it playing in the background.

But I digress.  Since I received the Sarah 300B, I've found myself glued to my seat, listening to one song/album after another, not getting much work done or pretty much anything else around the house.  Hooked up to what had become my "backup" speakers (Volti Audio Rivals), music is again dynamic, organic and sounds real.  Sorry, that's all I got for audiophile descriptors.  I live in New Orleans and see a ton of live music and my GF is a pianist, so we've got a pretty good frame of reference.

With my 100db/6 ohm speakers, you can't get anywhere near 7 full watts or clipping.  I listen to mostly jazz, but really a pretty good mix of everything else (except maybe polka).  It has no problem with highs and lows in my system and room (23' x 32' x 12').  Feel free to reach out if you have any other questions or are in my area and would like to give it a listen.

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Low325 on 06/24/23 at 17:45:35

Thanks for sharing jjgasp!

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Lon on 06/24/23 at 17:58:24

jj, thanks for the review!

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Kamran on 06/24/23 at 18:47:59

Thanks for sharing jj— I had the pleasure of hearing Volti speakers at capital audio fest last year and they sounded really nice paired with Border Patrols 300b amp—so I’m pretty sure they will be sounding just as nice or nice with Sarah!

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by CAJames on 06/24/23 at 19:36:39

Nice write up jj, thanks. Just curious what tubes you’re using?

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by jjgasp on 06/25/23 at 00:52:00

@Kamran I was considering the Border Patrol and the Ampandsound 300B amplifiers but at less than 1/3 the cost in and some cases with better features, I pulled the trigger and waited patiently for the Sarah.

@CAJames I've got quite the mix.  My Sarah came with the stock tubes picked by Steve.  I had to try the Western Electric 300B's, although I considered Cryotone, Sophia Electric, Elrog and Takatsuki.  No regrets and have no interest in owning multiple sets of 300Bs.  Just happened to have a pair of NOS Philips Miniwatt SQ E88CC/6922 Gold Pins sitting around and popped them in, as well as a NOS RCA black plate 12AU7.  Lastly, I added a set of Crytone 0C2s and a Crytone 5U4GB.

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Kamran on 06/27/23 at 22:19:28

Part 2 dropped today—watching now:

https://youtu.be/onylYtchbzs

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Tony on 06/28/23 at 00:49:11


After viewing Audiophiliacs Sarah Part 2, I was puzzled about why he did Part 2.  He could have ended with Part 1, as I didn't get much from this episode.  He was overall positive but measured.

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Kamran on 06/28/23 at 02:22:49

Agreed—100%

I think Steve missed a good opportunity to compare how Sarah responded to each of this three different types of high sensitivity speakers in more detail.

Interesting coincidence that his latest speaker is the Volti Razz—we were just talking about JJ’s Volti speakers the other day.

Also, is it just me or did he keep mispronouncing Wathen? He does seem to like their 300b offering, so kudos to them!

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Lon on 06/28/23 at 03:52:23

He was mispronouncing Wathen. And I would have liked to have him talk of the controls, the different biases, the hum control. . . .

But you know how those Steves are, they're gonna do what they're gonna do!

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Low325 on 06/28/23 at 03:55:27

Do you think we’ll see a part 3?

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by will on 06/28/23 at 04:09:42

I felt mixed about the review as usual with his. But he has an intersting way of creating an image, in this case pointing to how well Decware has become liked by himself and friends in sort of magical and musical ways, and how this amp did with a variety of recordings. I really don't like the audiophile tendency to say "it is good," or "the best," or whatever without explaining why. Why would we trust anyone we don't know the room or history of with this sort of opinion. But in the context of sort of a starry eyed love for the amp bordering on the mystical, his calling it special seemed real. I thought some of the best information in the video was how Steve's 300B made different types, vintages and qualities of recordings feel closer to real music... super important to me, for it to feel pretty real, and to feel that way across recordings... and no mean task to get that.

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Ghostship on 06/29/23 at 19:18:26

Just a heads-up, I posted these impressions of my new Sarah in the Reviews section here:

https://www.decware.com/cgi-bin/yabb22/YaBB.pl?num=1688062146

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Low325 on 06/29/23 at 19:24:04

Thank you Ghost. It looks like a doozy. I haven’t read it yet but it looks to be an interesting point of view. Thanks for sharing!  Questions to come I’m sure!

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Junker on 06/30/23 at 18:19:21

Hey Steve!

I’m so excited to be on the build list for this, and not to go down a tube rolling psychedelic rabbit hole but what was your current feeling on the default voltage regulator tube mix?

I’m running super-duper efficient Altec 604…although I’m starting to look at your speakers too for other applications later on, and don’t usually have any concerns about power whatsoever.

Just wondering if you are digging OA2 | OA2 | OA2 or OA2 | OC2 | OA2 or OC2 | OC2 | OC2?

The reason I ask is that in the reviews so far and in the cryo tube set everyone seems to be running flat out with the OC2. Is that just a power anxiety move? I’m not concerned about hitting the full 7W. Legit sensitive speakers don’t need this.

Thanks for any of your impressions there.

Mahalo.

P.S.: Super trippy thing happened yesterday… I’m in Waikiki for six months and played Arthur Lyman Taboo, and then a few tracks from Martin Denny yesterday while working. Then, last night I was pouring over your YouTube videos and saw you demo’s with Denny. Seriously… what are the odds of that?


Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Lon on 06/30/23 at 18:25:21

I made myself a note that Steve mentioned an 0C2 for the input and two 0A2 for the driver tubes being a favored complement and that is sort of what I am doing on my Monoblocks with great success (75C1 and two 0D3) and that will likely be the first "trio" that I will try in mine.

My amp Passed Quality Control. That's a good thing. ;)

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Low325 on 06/30/23 at 18:51:06

@junker
:shakka:

That’s definitely an island system with the Leben in there. Lol!

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Junker on 06/30/23 at 19:42:35

Ha! Sadly that's all back in Santa Cruz right now and I'm "roughing it" for the time being with a DAC, Schiit Vali 2++, and a pair of wood-bodied Grado.

Nice DAC btw!!! Yeah, I'd be okay with a Tiki hut vibe all day long!

@Lon you are close! Just checked and you are right there. I have about 50 Sarah in front of me so plenty of time for reviews and impressions, before I get back home and can enjoy a SET!

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by CAJames on 06/30/23 at 22:12:51


Quote:
Posted by: Junker      Posted on: Today at 10:19:21

...Just wondering if you are digging OA2 | OA2 | OA2 or OA2 | OC2 | OA2 or OC2 | OC2 | OC2?


JMO but if you are #Tubecurious you should just buy a selection now and check it out for yourself, on your own system once you get your amp. The 0[A|B|C]2 are cheap, at least today, but they aren't making any more of them and they aren't getting any cheaper.

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Junker on 06/30/23 at 22:47:19

Yah no doubt. I believe the amp will come with both or all flavors? I'm picking up some nice OG tubes and interested in the the mix and quantity. Does running a greater voltage drop with the A or B extend the life of 12AU7 and 6922? I'll be using Siemens CC with a Blackburn Mullard ECC82. Trust me it will be a long time before I'll be able to circle back around and test myself.

Being in the development thread I'm interested in the voicing and current feelings on the operating points. It's changed a bit as you would expect during the development cycle, and haven't heard anything since the most recent A|C|A update. Yet I'm seeing C|C|C from demos and partnered tube vendors. I'm curious is seeing the all C mix is due to tube availability in quantity, power output, or voicing.

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Lon on 07/01/23 at 13:38:54

I don't know what you will get if you order the amp with Steve's choice of tubes. From photos I would suspect three 75C1 (0C2).

I ordered mine with no tubes and I have numerous brands of all three types of voltage regulation tubes so I'll have some fun experimenting.

I am unsure if the voltage drop will influence tube life. Interesting question. It could be that a lower voltage may promote tube life.

I suspect Wathen selected the 0C2 type both because of availability and for the most power.

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by CAJames on 07/01/23 at 15:50:23


Quote:
Posted by: Junker      Posted on: Yesterday at 14:47:19

...Does running a greater voltage drop with the A or B extend the life of 12AU7 and 6922?


For these kinds of tubes it might extent tube life a little at the margin, but unlike power tubes it isn't really an issue. Well made 6922/12AU7 etc. tubes should last a long time regardless. JMO and all that.

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Kamran on 07/06/23 at 18:33:32

Lon, did your Sarah ship?

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Lon on 07/06/23 at 19:15:23

I do not think it shipped. This morning I was notified it went into Packing and Shipping status.

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Kamran on 07/06/23 at 19:23:53

Oh ok—getting close! So excited for you!

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Low325 on 07/06/23 at 19:32:19

I’m still Trying to understand the decware mono capabilities.

Can you run two Sarah’s in unbalanced mono and still have it excel with doubling the power? Or is that only for balanaced mono configs is where one would get double power output and 6db gain per channel together with SQ gains?

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by CAJames on 07/07/23 at 03:54:13


Quote:
osted by: Low325      Posted on: Today at 11:32:19
I’m still Trying to understand the decware mono capabilities.

Can you run two Sarah’s in unbalanced mono and still have it excel with doubling the power?  Or is that only for balanaced mono configs...


It doubles the power in unbalanced or balanced mono. Note also that doubling the power is a 3 dB gain, not 6.

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Lon on 07/14/23 at 17:20:16

My unit shipped--no tracking number yet but probably early next week.


Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by will on 07/14/23 at 17:29:42

Great news! Exciting!

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Low325 on 07/14/23 at 17:47:15

Awesome! Now the hard part…::trusting the carrier to not only mishandle it, but also get it to you yesterday lol

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Lon on 07/14/23 at 21:22:39

I've had very good luck with Decware shipping.

Got a tracking number: Tuesday.

Edit to add: I actually sort of feel sorry for the SEWE300B and me. My Monoblocks --seasoned for five years* --are sounding simply the best they ever have, amazing sound. And I have what may be a lifetime supply of tubes for them. Why am I getting an SEWE300B? Maybe it will completely knock my socks off immediately. Or maybe I'll break it in for a month and it will seduce me. One thing is certain: I can't lose, I have the Monoblocks wowing me every day this year that aren't going anywhere til they are bested.

*Don't discount the seasoning of these amps. They sound better and better year after year.

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Kamran on 07/15/23 at 02:48:40

Woohoo! Looking forward to your updates!

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Lon on 07/18/23 at 23:50:12

Well #016 arrived here today.

Well UPS said it would arrive between noon and 4:45 and it arrived at 4:45!

It is both the heaviest amp I have ever had, and the most beautiful.

I put it all together and turned it on and it blew a brand new SophiaElectric Aqua 274B and a fuse! I was warned that it would possibly not work, which is a shame as the Sophia Electric tubes I have bought were designed to work with that rectifier. So I stuck in an RCA 5V4G and pulled it out, replaced the fuses and powered it up. I rolled some voltage regulation tubes and ended up with two English (Mullard I think) 0B2 and a GE 0A2. That gave me the signature that I really liked most initially. I have an Amperex 12Au7 in the front and two RCA Gray Glass 6SN7 with adaptors in the other 9 pin positions, and am using Sophia Electric Classic 300B blue glass output tubes. I had a hard time getting any difference switching between the two speaker positions but left it on I think the lowest position, and with the front switches chose the most laidback of the two biases.

It sounds a LOT like my SE84UFO3 Monoblocks with the Anniversary Mods right now but so much more power! I'm letting it play and get hot. More soon.

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Lon on 07/19/23 at 00:59:47

Listening with about 2.5 hours on the amp now. As this has no Treble Cut Circuit I rolled some tubes to get a mellower tonal balance. I put in a Cunningham Globe Type 80, two RCA 7308s and a National 5963 that Steve had sent with one of my ZROCK2. And I put a Bugle Boy 12AU7 in the ZROCK2.

I feel I can sense the "MiFlex sound" as compared to the Jupiters in the SEWEFUO3s.

Very nice tonal balance now as everything begins the break in process.

Two things I'll note: I have never seen nicer tube sockets. Wow. And the copper transformer end plates are beautiful.

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Low325 on 07/19/23 at 01:06:44

Fantastic and congrats! Please keep us posted. Pics?? :)

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Lon on 07/19/23 at 01:21:59

I'll keep posting impressions on this page for a while. No pics though. I"m not a pic person. I don't own a camera though there is one in my flip phone. . . that does not connect to any othere device.

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by CAJames on 07/19/23 at 01:22:32


Quote:
Posted by: Lon      Posted on: Today at 16:59:47

...I put in a Cunningham Globe Type 80...


Type 80 is rated for 125ish mA of current, less than your pretty 274B. Just goes to show how well made tubes were back in the golden age of tube tech. But I would be afraid of driving it to an early grave using it in the 300B amp.

Regardless, congrats on getting your amp and looking forward to all your further adventures.

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Lon on 07/19/23 at 01:39:39

it was operating perfectly and sounded great but I got restless and rolled two other rectifiers in since then. I got the idea to try it from one of Steve's pictures where it seems to me he has a Type 80 globe but it's probably another tube type.

It's going to be hard to find the right combo that will make me not wish I could reach for my treble cut knob. . . but that's just ME.

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Junker on 07/19/23 at 01:41:16

Hey Lon you may want to try the Sophia Electric Aqua II 274B that supports 220mA and a 47uF capacitor:

https://sophiaelectric.com/collections/frontpage/products/new-sophia-electric-aqua-ii-274b-rectifier-tube-with-live-like-sonic-performance

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by CAJames on 07/19/23 at 01:47:52


Quote:
Posted by: Lon      Posted on: Today at 17:39:39

...It's going to be hard to find the right combo that will make me not wish I could reach for my treble cut knob. . . but that's just ME.


IMO a lot is going to depend on what way your 300B tubes go when they break in. Mine started dark and added some high end sparkle with more hours. Other types (in other amps) seem like they start out bright and brittle and mellow out.  

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Lon on 07/19/23 at 01:48:17

Thanks Junker. I have about 20 or so rectifiers I can roll and evaluate, I may check that out later on though if I decide this is the amp I'm going to keep.


Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Lon on 07/19/23 at 03:08:06

Good point. I have no other 300B tube experience to compare and I know that in a few weeks things will begin to be settling in on a direction.

In the meantime I'm just going to keep listening as I do.

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Junker on 07/19/23 at 03:52:15

Not sure if these are your 300B tubes but they say:

“the Classic 300B tube has the high end extension and powerful bass response of a live performance -- 20% more bass extension and 15% more high frequency extension than the vintage WE 300B tube while it still maintains the great traditional direct heated triode mid-range magic.“

https://sophiaelectric.com/collections/tubes-for-300b-amplifiers/products/pages-se-classic-300b

So, I wonder if you’ll end up wanting something with a little less enhanced sparkle on top. It will be interesting to learn about your experience. Thank you for your updates and feedback!

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Lon on 07/19/23 at 03:59:17

I researched the tube going in--I have been all over that website-- and I think it may turn out fine, we'll see. I'll be doing tuning along the way. My audio budget has changed, I won't be buying 300B tubes for a while.

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Kamran on 07/19/23 at 05:43:03

Congrats Lon! Reading your updates and yearning for more!  That said, I was really surprised and shocked about the blown Sophia Electric trc Aqua 274B and fuse.  We both love this tube and I was convinced that this rectifier would work on Sarah.

While I didn’t know about the newly released II version, even the version we have has a higher capacitance.  From Sophia’s original Aqua webpage:

“Sophia Electric came out with a newly designed Aqua 274B rectifier tube to raise the limitation from 8uf to 47uf. This Aqua 274B can directly replace 5U4G in most amplifiers with great sonic improvement.

from the II webpage:

“In 2016, Sophia Electric released the revolutionary blue glass Aqua 274B that lifted the capacitance limitation (above), broadening the 274B market to be almost fully interchangeable with a 5U4G“.

The changes in II are not about changing capacitance—as that was already addressed in the original Aqua.  These are (from the II page):

The Aqua II has a higher current output (max 220ma) compared to the original Aqua 274B (max 180ma), and way more compared to the WE 274B (max 150ma)."
The Aqua II has a lower impedance than any other 274B ever made, thus higher efficiency in converting AC into DC.
Higher dissipation power rating with visibly bigger and heavier internal construction.
New generation of spark arc suppression technology to eliminate arc possibility (WE274B is the internal spark arc king).

I might write to Sue to investigate why this happened as this directly impacts my plans to use the same rectifier.

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Junker on 07/19/23 at 06:00:02

I know, huh. Too expensive to be ripping through too many of those!

I’m glad you guys will be the early adopters. Thanks for taking one for the team!

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Tony on 07/19/23 at 06:14:38

Hi Lon,

Congrats on Sarah! I thought about you receiving her earlier today, and thought we might not hear from you for a bit. Glad you chronicled her arrival.  Too bad about Sophia. Until we hear from you again,  enjoy!

Tony

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Lon on 07/19/23 at 09:45:25

I don't think it's about the resistor as much as it is current. I have plenty of more compatible rectifiers to try and I'm not in a position to buy more Sophias etc.right now. I'll find just the right one to go forward for now. I'm listening to another RCA 5V4G right now, these are very good tubes. I have to remember that the voltage regulation and output tubes I'm using are all new.

Thanks Tony and Kam. This is a great amp, I can tell that already . . . with 8 hours of play. Starting the seventh hour.

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Ghostship on 07/19/23 at 10:50:48

Congrats Lon! If you think she's good now, just wait...with ~600 hours on my Sarah the sound continues to improve to unworldly levels. Happy for you. Enjoy!!

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Lon on 07/19/23 at 11:16:53

Thank you my friend. I wish today I could fast forward 600 hours or so just for a few hours!

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by mperdue63 on 07/19/23 at 12:22:39



Lon, I’ve had a Sophia Electric 274B in my Sarah for most of it’s short life so far with no issues. I’ve had this tube for a couple of years and the Sarah is the first amp that I’ve liked the Sophia in. I’ve got a few hundred hours on the Sarah and the Sophia has been in service for most of the time.

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Lon on 07/19/23 at 12:32:49

Yes, I remember similar experience with Sophia Electric 274B. Which is why I was so totally surprised that the first thing that happened was an Aqua arced and blew a fuse.

Is yours an Aqua?

I could try it again. If I wanted to risk another Aqua. I don't know. I'm going to ponder it.

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by mperdue63 on 07/19/23 at 13:33:07

It is an Aqua.

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Lon on 07/19/23 at 13:37:07

Thanks. I may risk another one later.

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by mperdue63 on 07/19/23 at 13:38:35

Looks like it might the Aqua II, I'll see if I can verify which when I get home this evening.

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Lon on 07/19/23 at 14:10:21

Thank you. Yes, it seems the Aqua II is a safer choice. And supposedly sounds even better.


Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Lon on 07/19/23 at 14:40:45

Well, knowing that Steve prefers these tubes I popped in my best pair (red-tipped) 6N6P and wow, that opens up more possible tubes in the complement, doesn't sound at all as I suspected it might, they are more laid back. Getting a little more relaxed in the listening.

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by will on 07/19/23 at 17:51:59

Lon,

Glad your are learning your new amp and getting some exciting results so early in burnin. I enjoy your tube experiments.

I thought Steve making those cool/layered and lower value first caps would cause this amp to be notably more flexible in terms of capacitance effecting rectifiers negatively. Not willing to dig through the thread just now to verify, but isn't this what you remember, that the net of those smaller caps was a pretty low value first cap... like a fraction of 47?

If I am remembering this correctly, seems your thought that is it not capacitance that blew the Sophia, and CAJames ideas about 300B current requirements might be worth exploring some. I have not measured current on the 300B I am playing with, and no doubt Steve's circuit is different, but the inrush voltage on mine is about 530 volts, which eases off to the mid to upper mid 400s for B+, and the higher 300s on the 300B plate with the cathode resistor. Just suggesting these big tubes may be different in flexibility for rectifiers than our other amps, even though Steve always seems to give us really good flexibility??? Or maybe it was just coincidentally a weak rectifier... something that seems to be a thread in the past for some Sophia Aqua users.

I am having fun with my now pretty old 300B, gradually tuning out its, for me, somewhat slowish/darkish euphonic qualities, making them less apparent with more resolution and speed, but still present. I get the sonic interest in the type though... pretty compelling that big tube sound!

I am blown away how loud it plays compared to my Torii. What is up with that? I mean it is not as loud before notable distortion, but feeling (not measured) close to the Torii here, and supposedly less than half the wattage. Could this be a big SE tube thing?

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by CAJames on 07/19/23 at 18:06:13


Quote:
Posted by: will      Posted on: Today at 09:51:59

...I thought Steve making those cool/layered and lower value first caps would cause this amp to be notably more flexible in terms of capacitance effecting rectifiers negatively....


That's right Will. For a long time, esp. if you had a UFO amp the big concern was the first power supply cap, and no one really had to think about the current capacity. Sarah turns that upside down. I believe the cap value is now 8 uF (maybe 4 uF) but according to Steve the rectifier must deliver between 160 and 175 mA of current, which is a lot.  As Lon discovered with his Type 80 quality rectifiers from back in the day (esp. if they are still alive now) often perform far beyond the datasheet spec. Current production is much more of a crap shoot.

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by will on 07/19/23 at 18:12:32

Do you have thoughts about how different rectifier electrical values can effect a 300B tube lifetime?


EDIT: assuming the 300B cathode has a correct voltage?

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Lon on 07/19/23 at 18:45:55

Will, I'm glad you are exploring the 300B and getting it into your audio world and philosophy. I too am surprised at how powerful the amp sounds--and yet there's no mistaking this for other than a Decware amp--it has the swift and vivid characteristics.

I think I'll just stick within the rectifier types that Steve mentions . . . it's a pain to disconnect and pull the amp out to change the fuse! (By the way--there only seems to be ONE).

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by CAJames on 07/19/23 at 18:55:28


Quote:
Posted by: will      Posted on: Today at 10:12:32

Do you have thoughts about how different rectifier electrical values can effect a 300B tube lifetime?


I'm happy to make something up .

I think the big factor in power tube lifetime is the operating point, how many watts the tube dissipates without any signal. That is usually set by the designer based on an assumed B+, but the actually B+ is going to be determined by the voltage sag of the rectifier. The more sag, the lower the actual B+ so the lower the operating point and (in theory) the longer the tube life. That also impacts how the tube sounds and probably varies (maybe considerably) from rectifier to rectifier even of the same type. I don't think the typical datasheet values like max plate voltage and DC current have a direct impact on power tube life, or at least not an important one compared to the variations in the 300B tubes themselves. That is assuming the operating specs of the amp are within the operating specs of the rectifier. If you exceed the limits of the rectifier that's much more of a problem for the rectifier than the power tubes.

This is all very much JMO/FWIW and all that.

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by will on 07/19/23 at 19:15:29

CAJames,

Interesting ways of looking at it. I have not explored this, but some of the chatter out there as I was looking at 300B tubes implied to me that running very far under 300B operating points, or very far above, could do damage, and wondering if this was real, and if so, what are the basic perimeters, and and how critical this is.

It sounds like you don't think it matters so much to the 300B, but that it could put you into turmoil with rectifiers. I have tried a number of rectifiers in my 300B, and like the lower key ones better for now as I tune the amp inside. But the guy I bought it from seemed freaky about staying with rectifiers the amp was designed around, in this case a 5U4G, and cautioned me against going off the 5U4G parameters, I thought for the sake of the 300B??? Also seems some of the tonier manufacturers are on about rectifiers with their 300Bs.

Lon,

Nice it is back to one fuse for us audio fuse people. All my Decware has just one fuse, and though I have no doubt there was good reason, I dreaded seeing those internal fuse banks added.

My 300B was pretty tuned up when I bought it, including some massive output transformers that are supposed to have silver (plated?) winding and sound really good, WBT connectors, and some decent coupling caps. With more open and resolving tubes in the CSP3, ZR2 and 300B, it was surprisingly close to the fundamental sonic balances my highly tuned Torii IV had ended up with. So far it appears to have needed mainly careful cap bypassing and cap adjustments to help put it more on a par with the MkIV and more easily reveal the beauty potential of the 300B.

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Lon on 07/19/23 at 19:28:33

Yes, I'm much happier to have just one fuse. When the rectifier went down it blew a fuse, when I popped out the fuse holder it is like those I am used to seeing in the Decware components, an active fuse and a spare in a holder, the exact same fuse holder as in the other Decware components I have. (With the exception of the ZTPRE and ZLC, both of which have two large fuses . . . I'm using two Purple in ZTPR right now and two Blue in the ZLC). I've asked Steve about the fuse/fuses here, as the product page, the manual and some posts here mention two active fuses.

I just put one of my "younger" 6085 in the input spot and am liking what that is bringing. Gave me a dash of warm smoothness as well as a bit more of a 3D image. I am not surprised--these tubes amaze me, I have six in my ZTPRE.

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Junker on 07/19/23 at 19:42:51

I do not believe that is an Aqua II 274B above. The new version has a darker blue (cobalt glass?) envelope.




Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by will on 07/19/23 at 19:49:14

Junker, I guess you are using the newer one now?

Lon,

Is that a Holland Phillips E80CC/6085? If so, I get how that could ease you closer to your preferences. The ones I have are full, rich, and resolving throughout, but I tend so far to find them a little too warm/full for my tastes while highly apprenticing the quality. I have been liking some Mullard made E180CCs in my setup more off and on, in the ZR2, though probably not as completely a great tube.

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Lon on 07/19/23 at 19:50:53

And taller!

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by CAJames on 07/19/23 at 19:52:01


Quote:
Posted by: will      Posted on: Today at 11:15:29

...but some of the chatter out there as I was looking at 300B tubes implied to me that running very far under 300B operating points, or very far above, could do damage, and wondering if this was real, and if so, what are the basic perimeters, and and how critical this is.


I think it is very real, but also out of your control. The designer chooses the operating point and your choice of tubes only changes that on the margin. The good news is it isn't an issue for any reasonable commercial product. An amp that operates outside the 300B (or any power tube or transistor) comfort zone is likely going to be highly distorted and almost certainly sound terrible. So long as your amp sounds good you're OK.


Quote:
But the guy I bought it from seemed freaky about staying with rectifiers the amp was designed around, in this case a 5U4G, and cautioned me against going off the 5U4G parameters, I thought for the sake of the 300B???


Is the guy the designer/builder of the amp? I suspect it is much more because the 5U4G is the burliest of the common rectifiers and the least likely to fail on powerup, like Lon's 274B. Same reason Steve supplies the 5U4G with Sarah. Some designers are also very, how would you say it, proprietary, about their amps and feel like they should be operated just so. But you understand the risks and should feel free to make your own decisions.


Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Junker on 07/19/23 at 19:52:18

Hey Will,

No, I will not have a Decware for over two years and will continue to use my 12W Shindo Apetite 6V6 push-pull and/or a pre-ordered First Watt SIT-4 until then. This picture is from Jeff's Place review.

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by will on 07/19/23 at 19:58:10

Hey Junker,

Sorry, I was meaning which Sophia are you using. In my "new" 300B this is first time I have fully appreciated what I guess is the right hand version of the Sophia Aqua 274B in your pic. This amp has a 50 uF Wima Film cap for the rectifier, and those earlier, tubes I bought several years ago so far are working fine.

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Lon on 07/19/23 at 19:59:19

Yes, this is a red printed Amperez PQ 6085, Holland made, I bought a sleeve of five of these at a killer price. The other three I have are Amperex white printed Holland 6085. Love these tubes. . . for my room and system they are both a bit of a bandaid and a jet booster.

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Junker on 07/19/23 at 20:06:43

I am not using a 274B Will. I will not have my Sarah for a considerable time, and my Shindo Apetite is not tube rectified. The First Watt SIT-4 is solid-state.

Kamran above in post #1020 cited that the original Aqua was improved in 2016 to support a 47uF capacitor / in-rush current.

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by will on 07/19/23 at 20:55:58

CAJames, Interesting and thanks for your thoughts. No, my guy was not the designer, but said he used the amp for 10 years. From the few measurements I took, using Sophia 274B Aqua rectifiers, it seems in safe ranges, using adjustable Coleman boards to regulate the filaments for which I presently prefer a little under 5 volts (set at 4.85 volts), and my Plate voltage seems similar to many, under 400 volts, so guessing it is not too freaky by nature. Anyway, I am comforted and feel freer to explore different rectifiers more based on your input. Below are interesting perimeters and comparisons to me.


From EML's Pumped up 300B-xls data page:




Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by will on 07/19/23 at 21:09:19

Hey Junker,

Oh, I understand... sorry I did not get that before. Yes I am pretty sure mine are the same design type as those Kamran is talking about, the version before the more recent 274B Aqua IIs, but having been modified from original 274B perimeters to supposedly tolerate 47uF caps. This tube has had some folks captivated, and some disgusted for costing as much as it did, and not lasting very long in some Decware amps with 47uF rectifier caps. I wonder if the new Aqua II that is supposed to be higher current as well will solve this thing of some being fine and others not so.

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Junker on 07/20/23 at 02:04:10

It will be interested to hear what options will work best. I’m also interested in those 5AR models with the soft start. Doubt they sound as good at the 274B. And I have a feeling that WE will eventually release a 274B as their second tube, as that is what Takasuki released second, but I’d hope that they would uprate it as well.

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Lon on 07/20/23 at 02:07:04

I've tried 5AR so far, Amperex. They have a softer, sort of foggier sound in this instance or at least this early on in the break-in here.

Also Steve verified for me that the amp only uses one active fuse. He wrote:


There is only 1 active fuse in the amp, the other is a spare.  Originally I chose to have 2 active fuses and then changed my mind in the final hours before production.  It just would have irritated people.

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Kamran on 07/20/23 at 03:03:06

I’ve written to Sue (from Sophia Electric) about the compatibility of the original Aqua 274B (lighter blue) with Sarah 300B.  Let’s see what she says.

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Lon on 07/20/23 at 03:15:04

It's been reported in this thread or on the forum before that she did not recommend its use.

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Kamran on 07/20/23 at 05:47:59

Hmm, must have missed that then.  Thanks for taking one for the team—knowing that and still taking that chance.  I am going to reevaluate my rectifier plans.  

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Lon on 07/20/23 at 12:33:56

I'm now on the fourth "Five On" cycle and there's marked improvement--the sound stage has opened up. And I realized that I was sort of starving the 6085 input tube and popped in a 75C1 (English 0C2) tube for that position and BOOM . . . bass that I was missing, and a touch more dynamics.

I've set up the system with this amp the same way I had the Monoblocks this year: PS Audio DSD DAC Mk2 to ZTPRE to ZBIT to ZROCK2 to amp. When this has seasoned in I may try a setup without the ZTPRE. . . but as I have in the past preferred the DSD DAC with a preamp I think that will prove to be the case again.

It's definitely starting to sound really darned good. I'm not missing my Monoblocks this morning.

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Tony on 07/20/23 at 14:47:49


Lon:

It's definitely starting to sound really darned good. I'm not missing my Monoblocks this morning.

I know it will take time, but that report says a lot. Enjoy the music AND the amp.

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Lon on 07/20/23 at 15:26:16

Yes, it turned a page this morning. I further put in two 75C1 voltage regulation tubes for the driver tubes in place of the Mullard 0B2 and got even more richness and bass. So clearly that is the direction for my system. (These 75C1 are interesting tubes--they are slightly darker than other 0C2 tubes I've used, and they impart a certain texture that is hard to define.)

Anyway, I just turned it off for the fourth "Five off" cycle. This method that Steve has suggested numerous times for break-in really works.

This is such a beautiful amp. The wood on the base is very interesting with a red streaky grain. And the copper plated transformer end caps are stunning. Even my wife says it's beautiful. She's never said anything at all like that before of any of my equipment.

There is definitely POWER in reserve for my HR-1 speakers in a way that I don't even remember the Torii Mk III making me feel (though when I was using the Mk IIIs they were in larger rooms). I love my Monoblocks, and I'm falling in love with this amp. I can feel the promise ahead. When this seasons in it will be a monster of an amp--and still retaining the virtue of the smaller SET amps.

Wow. I'm looking forward to another session this afternoon.

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by will on 07/20/23 at 15:36:46

Nice! Happy day.

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Junker on 07/20/23 at 17:04:10

Thanks for logging the burn-in process and tube selection choices Lon! It will help all of us navigate that process when we get there.

By any chance do you also have a triplet of OB2? I'm just wondering how much of a chance is there that that voltage drop would be Goldilocks on the input and/or drivers?

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Lon on 07/20/23 at 17:23:55

One more little update: I went through what I thought were safe rectifiers to roll into the amp and came up with some favorites: It's a close match between two Amperex rectifiers: a 5AR4, and a 5R4WGY. (I think the 5R4 should be safe). They both sound very similar though the latter may have the edge on "body.") Next is an RCA 5U4GB which is a bit warmer but really nice in this amp. And finally there's a NOS Chinese 5Z3PA that Sophia Electric sells and said was one to use instead of the 274B Aqua. I didn't like how this sounded in the CSP3 or the Taboo Mk IV but it did sound nice in the SEWE300B. Not as nice as the above BUT it does not have many hours on it. . . .

And one final note: I looked and saw I had 19 ceramic fuses I could use if a fuse blew in the amp and I decided to try the very same 274B Aqua and risk five minutes replacing a fuse. So the Aqua was still alive. . .it arced. .. and then powered up. No fuse action. I let it play for a few minutes. It did sound good. But it didn't sound noticeably better than the two Amperex or the RCA above. . .so I shut it down, curiosity assuaged. I may revisit this later, but the fact that it arcs means I shouldn't use THAT tube.

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Kamran on 07/20/23 at 17:29:45

Thanks for the regular updates Lon! I was wondering about the number on/off cycles for initial break-in.  Can you remind us how many such cycles are recommended by Steve?

Also, heard back from Sue and reproducing her response below. As you mentioned and tried—not a good fit with Sarah, but the newer one does solve the issue.  The early review is good for the newer version, so I might end up getting that.

Hi Kamran,

Thanks for your email. If I understand correctly, your future 300B amplifier is a single ended design, both channels share one 5U4G rectifier. If this is the case, the original Aqua 274B (rated: max 160 ma)  may not have enough current capacity, as a result, it blows the fuse. Good news is we have a new Aqua II 274B (rated: max 220 ma) tube available which should solve the problem that the original one has.

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Lon on 07/20/23 at 17:35:57

Thanks Kam. I'll put the new Aqua II on my wish list. I'll probably try one in the future, after I have the SEWE300B all seasoned and dialed in and free up some dollars. I'll bet it's a really good rectifier.

I think choosing to go with these Sophia Electric 300B tubes was a good idea--they are sounding better and better, the whole complement is. One day I'll decide between either the Wathen cryo'd JJ 300Bs or the Western Electric, but with the quality sound I am getting now and foresee around the bend there is no hurry (and that's good as there is no cash--my whole financial world turned upside down when my wife walked off her job and decided to retire 3 years earlier than she had planned; my monthly expenses have now nearly tripled!)

Steve's process I remember as a paraphrase of "Wax on, Wax off"--Five hours of play, and them at least five hours off and cooling--repeated five times.

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Junker on 07/20/23 at 17:53:36

Wow good thing you took delivery of your new amp when you did, and have the tube stash that you do. That should give you a great amp without having to chase down the last 10% at significant cost.

Those Amperex power tubes are too expensive for what I would pay for a power rectifier, so I'll be interested in what 5AR4 are around at or below the cost of the Sophia Electric Aqua II 274B.

Also good news that those OA2, OB2, and OC2 tubes are only $10-15 so that's reassuring.

I'll need to pour back over 20 pages of development thread posts, but what is the spec for final value of the first power supply capacitor on this amp?

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Junker on 07/20/23 at 18:01:25

Looks like it is a 47uF F&T electrolytic with a 0.33uF Miflex bypass cap. So, yah that answers my question. Definitely going to be wanting to run the Aqua II or 5AR4 or 5U4.

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Lon on 07/20/23 at 18:22:54

Note (and I know you know this) but it is 0A2, 0B2 and 0C2, not 0A3, 0B3 and 0C3 (and my favorite perhaps for my Monoblocks, 0D3).

They're not expensive and plentiful. My favorites of the 0_2 family are RCA for American or "British" (some are not labeled by anything we recognize but I think most are made by Mullard) or Amperex (some of which I've found I think are Mullard). It's weird how much of a difference different brands can make on these.

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Junker on 07/20/23 at 18:26:09

Ah right. Let me fix that so I don't confuse anybody. Thanks Lon!

Hey so have you noticed a different illumination color within a VR type between brands, or between types? I'm really curious if any have any interesting colors.

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Lon on 07/20/23 at 18:29:59

I think there are uniform colors between the three types, i.e. one color for each type. Most of  the 0_2 types I have there is very little visible light on them and in my Monoblocks they are under the chassis, unseen. The C75C1 (0A2) that I am using in the SEWE300B have a very strong orange glow projecting from the bottom and lights up the chassis around them in a cool way.

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by will on 07/20/23 at 18:37:50

Junker. I think the rectifier cap is the Sprague combination set, several caps making one. So first cap on the right of this internal pic I found on my computer. I did not dig through the thread to find out, and can't tell what value the yellow ones are, but guess they are pretty low value "bypasses" more for sound than value. Also can't tell from this pic, but if the Sprague are wired in series, likely the total value would be notably lower than 8uF. I am guessing this might be the case since I think I recall Steve going for a quite low value??? If in parallel, it would double the seen values... so 16 uF + whatever the yellow ones add. Either way much lower than 47, and if you need to get specific, might need to read the write up wherever the sprague caps are mentioned. If you find the exact value, please let us know.


Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Junker on 07/20/23 at 18:48:12

Thanks Will. I'll take some time later and see what I can find deeper in the thread. I had found this pic in there somewhere and was what I was going off of.


Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by will on 07/20/23 at 19:02:42

Right, guessing it will not be a lot further than the pic you grabbed since that looks like it could be the a beginning of wiring the power supply caps.

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Same Old DD on 07/20/23 at 22:05:35

Wholly crap (intentional spelling, more to come), Lon, 'gratz on your new SARAH!!

So, except for some supply delivery concerns across the line up, untenable by Decware staff at large, this whole three year wait thing is kind of a myth?

I've just read every word posted since your delivery. Then again ...

Wishing you the joy we all seek!
[smiley=icqlite20.png]


Late to the table, as usual.

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Lon on 07/20/23 at 22:20:28

I wish the three year wait currently WERE a myth. Hard to think of that. This wait was about 21 months.

Thanks DD. It is a gas to have this to explore and I'm getting my wish: it's almost at the stage where I can just listen to things as you have done without too much futzing. And man the sound was worth waiting for.

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by HockessinKid on 07/21/23 at 10:23:33

Lon, congratulations on receiving your Sarah 300B amplifier and sharing your initial impressions. I'm looking forward to your additional impressions as the amp burns in and tube rolling experimentation. Enjoy the journey and the music along the way.

HK

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Lon on 07/21/23 at 10:28:46

Thanks HK. I think my initial tube-rolling has hit a peak that I will let simmer as the amp seasons. I'm getting great sound that seems to show me I'm on the right track with my choices. And I'll spare the forums post after post for a spell until there's a change or an important aspect to report. Then when I feel I have a good handle on it all I'll report a concise review.

Happy as heck so far!

Tube complement decided on for now:

1 each Amperex 6085
2 each Russian red-tipped 6N6P
3 each Mullard 75C1
1 each Amperex 5R4WGY
2 each Sophia Electric Classic 300B




Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by will on 07/22/23 at 02:49:04

Sounds like a nice combo for sure! It is great to have a bunch of nice tubes for things like this.

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Lon on 07/22/23 at 16:57:08

I made one change to the driver tubes: I put the Amperex Holland 7308 back in and got some interesting "dimensisonal" characteristics plus some warmth I like.

I made two moves with the voltage regulation tubes. First I went to all 75C1 and renjoyed that configuration but as it settled in it became a bit sterile. Then I moved to all 0A2 and really enjoyed the lush presentation and warmth. . . but the bass was not tight enough, my one niggling bit about that combo. So I remember Steve mentioning a 75C1 and two 0A2 as being a favored combo, went to that and man, it's just right. I am hopefully going to leave that as the voltage regulation trio for a spell.

Present combo:

1 each Amperex 6085
2 each Amperex Holland 7308
1 each Mullard 75C1
2 each Sylvania (supposedly cryo'd) 0A2
1 each Amperex 5R4WGY
2 each Sophia Electric Classic 300B

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Lon on 07/23/23 at 14:42:48

Okay. . . I just can't leave well enough alone, that should be obvious.

I kept thinking about how the Classic 300B was designed to work in tandem with the Aqua 274B. So knowing I had over a dozen ceramic fuses to use in the SEWE300B I popped that very same Aqua 274B in the amp. . . and no arc, powered up perfectly and dang it if it isn't the best rectifier so far once warmed up. Best bass, big open sound field, no harsh treble. Wow. I cycled the amp on and off three times (with about ten minutes in between) and no issues.

Hope hope hope I can keep using the Aqua 274B with these 300B tubes as they are definitely a good combo.

Man that tube looks so cool in the center of the amp with similarly blue 300B tubes in the rear sides. I still miss the treble cut circuit a bit, but that may fade with more seasoning. The sound. . . wow.

Tube Complement:
1 each Amperex Holland 6085
2 each Amperex Holland 7308
1 each Mullard 75C1
2 each Sylvania (supposedly cryo'd) 0A2
1 each Sophia Electric Aqua 274B
2 each Sophia Electric Classic 300B

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by will on 07/23/23 at 20:04:08

Lon,

I love it that over years your adapting to treble sensitivity, and me to low bass sensitivity, seems we are left with understanding tubes very similarly...preferring, respecting and using a lot of the same tubes for the same reasons. Good tubes, and always the musician thing, where for some of us, having got sucked into listening pretty deeply to the instruments for a long time, seems that can amp up perception and discernment. But still, pretty fun to think about, considering different sensitivities, and the vast complexity of different systems and rooms, especially when the subtle stuff is needed in all the balances. Yet, all and all, seems that we are hearing and integrating tubes similarly in different rooms and systems, while also using complex tube sets when looked at across pre sections and amps.

I guess it must be to do with our adapting to our sensitivities in ways that balance across audio parameters. And perhaps as much, I think for you and I, our tuning style of digging until more recordings sound great and without "dumbing things down for great recordings" is a pretty vast but accurate baseline.

As usual, I likely would gravitate a touch more open/fast, a little less darkness to the "warm" but maybe not...not knowing the Sophia Classic 300B sound. In that Sofia direction, and enjoying your touching on reviewing tubes as you explore your new amp, this got me onto thinking that our slightly divergent experience with the Sophia Aqua 274B might be a good illustration of how system/room context can change a really good tube preference, and even sharing the luxury of a huge variety of similar preferred tuning tubes.

Since so much of my amp work has been to open space and fine detail with more complete resolution with natural speed and spectral balances... Getting that to happen musically was not a shoe-in, for me taking a lot of slow and cumulative effort. But the underlying fundamental seems pretty straight up..... pull resolution in balance everywhere, which is basically both increasing resolution while resolving smearing. Associated, the double edge part, if our "conditioned" sense of "detail" allows us to get really close, but without more fully resolving fine detail in space, we don't know it is not there.

Anyway, seems my system is probably a bit more of a "magnifying glass," and yours, by design, resolving and refined in all areas, but with a bit more warmth objective... likely more "forgiving."  

This probably explains in part my never having fully gotten the Sophia Aqua 274B in my amps. Whereas, in my 300B it is great. The amp still needs more open resolution and speeding up for me, but it is coming pretty easily and makes me think it doubtful that the ways this amp was tuned previously could be called strictly old school 300B. And from when I got it until now, now being more open from my work, the Sophia Aqua247B is one of the "best rectifiers" I have had in that amp to date (mine are mostly NOS and lots of them).

Makes me think about designing tubes for 300Bs and other "big power tubes" used in SE settings, perhaps having some reality. And why not, the levels of tuning we can explore these days. In my 300B these 274Bs have excellent open and complex ranges and balances, and do it all with an interesting very grounded and solid feel, while nudging warmth with great space and fine detail across the spectrum...not dulling "warmth." In my tuned up Torii and CSP3, the same tube did most all this, but did not have that synced in grounded feeling that makes them disappear into music like this.

I do have two of them for the 300B though, and glad Kamran got more thoughts from Sue at Sophia, finding out that for Steve's 300B one of their previous version 274B Aquas was questionable due to current constraints. I am too tight so far to buy them new anyway with so many killer NOS rectifiers, but I guess I will keep an eye out for used new version ones.That said, it was intersting to me that the other day you were liking as Amperex 5R4GWY, and I had been, and continue to, run a cleaner tube of the type, some Fivre 5R4GYs, needing added speed and clarity as I burn in some cap changes. And I too have found the 5AR4/GZ34s I tried in this amp a little thick.

Wish we had the same amp so I could hear your tests in my system with more relative accuracy, but then..... this is pretty cool to me. Hopefully this sidetrack has some interest for folks.

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Lon on 07/23/23 at 20:35:20

Yes, I think we have that common baseline. And I would wager we have good/trained audio memories. I always am befuddled when I see some music lovers say "audio memory is so fleeting" or "I can't remember the sound of a system before a change for a matter of minutes." I've trained myself to remember perhaps, but I do. And that really helps in tube selection, isolation selection, power selection, indeed amp or preamp selection. And then tuning them.

Also, the musician thing. . . . I was probably a better drummer than anything else but a piano and stringed instruments taught me the plethora of sound possible and guitar tunings, differing amps, and differing tubes in tubed instrument amps, as well as a small number of different effects have been a part of my exploration and accumulation of thoughts and processes of sound. And a solid sense of how instruments themselves sound. And my amateur experience at recording has helped me to get a sense of what does NOT record, what is missing or lost in recordings, which helps to tune as well.

Someone else I bet who has a real skillset to tune is DD.

The Aqua 274B is a very versatile tube and it seems to really be at home in the SEWE300B and I can imagine it is also a good tube in yours. I find it has a nice balance within its possible sonic effects between speed and warmth, and as such it has become an anchor tube in many complements for me. As the only rectifier in my system (the ZTPRE having no rectifier) it plays an important role. It's interesting that now there is not only an Aqua 274B II but also a Classic 300B II which are meant to be mirrored together. If I weren't targeting somehow getting WE300B tubes. . . a combo of those would tempt me.

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Matchstikman on 07/24/23 at 20:15:54

Lon, what is the music you are using to evaluate your system?

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Lon on 07/24/23 at 20:25:23

For the first twenty hours or so (five on five off five times process employed) I was listening mostly to music I am very familiar with--including some recordings I made of two bands I was in at the end of the 'eighties recorded in my then garage-apartment/rehearsal space) and used these to evaluate the bulk of my tube-rolling (I bought the amp without tubes). After that I mixed in music that I was most familiar with with music that was arriving by the mail and music that I have on my shelf to revisit. Mostly jazz, some Brazilian music, a bit of classical and a touch of rock. (That would be my normal listening diet).

Most--not all, maybe 70 percent--of what I was listening to is chonicled on the "Spinning Now" thread.

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Same Old DD on 07/24/23 at 21:08:59

Sounds a lot like how I judge most changes to my gear.


Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Same Old DD on 07/24/23 at 21:14:33

Does that that mean that that 'that' that that new kid used may not be that correct?


(playing with your "with with" which is one of those English things that trips many up when learning)

;D

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Lon on 07/24/23 at 21:24:18

That's right.

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by DowdyPrime on 07/24/23 at 21:35:13

When/if you feel comfortable, Lon, it would be fascinating to hear you describe the sonic differences between your monoblock and the 300B. I imagine a big question for many people on the list (who have not had the pleasure to hear Decware amps before) is how the 25th anniversary SE84 variants (say, your monoblocks) compare to Sarah. You are probably one of the few people who will have had extensive experience with both... [For me, I am currently on the list for a SE84UFO25, and keep going back and forth about changing to Sarah.]

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Same Old DD on 07/24/23 at 21:46:45

Curious as well, but waiting for the right time to push.
;)

Aren't mono'ed SEs about the same power as a stereo Sarah?
We all have a lot more to learn and you, Lon are the first one with both in one room, I think.

[smiley=peanuts21.gif]

We wait.

Enjoy the journey.

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Lon on 07/24/23 at 21:46:54

Well, the SEWE300B is not fully seasoned yet I don't think, but believe me the entire time I've listened to it in some part of my brain I have been making comparisons to the very well-seasoned Monoblocks I have.

There are two main differences between the amps. One is volume/power. It is quite clear immediately that the SEW300B has more power in comparison to the Monoblocks. Which in my case has proven to be a boon as the Monoblocks with my HR-1 speakers work, and will go louder than I need them to, but they do show some strain and distortion way up in the volume range (which I never listen to but. . . ) The SEWE300B feels like a much more comfortable fit for the speakers and the soundstage seems a little more upfront and enveloping. Which may or may not be a good thing, and may change when more seasoning happens. (I like as much depth to the sound as I can get--at the moment the Monoblocks have a bit of edge in that regard).

Which leads into the second comparative: the Monoblocks hae a more refined and intimate sound that I have gotten so used to over five years. I sort of miss that as I listen to a lot of music where that is complimentary--acoustic instruments in a sort of chamber ensemble size, jazz and classical and Brazilian. Now the Monoblocks have been seasoning for over five years, and seasoning with these amplifiiers is REAL. I know that the SEWE300B will be more refined sounding in the future, that's how the amps mature. It's a subtle difference but in comparison the instrumental images seem a bit larger and thicker in texture and with commensurately less separation between them with the SEWE300B. And then there is the hum. . . which I think contributes that in part. There's a tiny bit of hum with the SEWE300B that I think is inherent IN the 300B tube and necessary circuitry. Anyone who is bothered by and obsesses over hum in a Zen amp shouldn't get an SEWE300B. It's totally not audible for me in my listening seat. Period. But the ever-present hum will bother some. By the same token the Monoblocks are quieter and that extra level of "blackness" to the sound is I think what contributes to that "refinement" and the razor thin appearance of the imaging. But time will tell as the SEWE300B matures and seasons. Also I think a possible bit of the difference in "refinement" may be due to the fact that I have Monoblock amps--separate chassis and power supply and dual input tubes etc. differences from the single chassis SEWE300B.

Also related to both comparisons I think is that I have been using preamps for years and years. The SEWE300B is likely to sound just a bit better without a preamp because Steve built a preamp stage into it at the input stage. The Monoblocks (and other Zen amps I've had in the past) don't have that preamp stage and a preamp helps them more.

There is one more difference between my two amplifications: though both have the power supply mods the Monoblocks are all Jupiter caps and the SEWE300B are all Miflex in those mods. My experience with hearing both brands/types in my Taboo MK IV is that there is a subtle difference in character between the two, the Miflex being a tiny bit clearer and quicker perhaps.

So I think a choice can depend on two things: the volume or power one needs for the speakers and the type of music one generally plays. If you want to rock out or blast symphonic music. . .the SEWE300B would be a better choice. If one likes solo instruments, jazz, chamber music, folk etc. predominantly the UFO25 might be just the ticket if the speakers are really and actually fine with that level of power output.

Hope that makes sense and may be helpful.

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Lon on 07/24/23 at 22:05:36

Aren't mono'ed SEs about the same power as a stereo Sarah?

DD, "Mono'd ZEN amps" would be within the range (probably about 5 amps or so in comparison to the 4 to 7 the SEWE300B can be configured to with voltage regulation tube variations) and similarly powered to the SEWE300B.

But MY SE84UFO3 are not "mono'd" but MONOBLOCK, i.e one chassis and power supply per channel. Not two two channel amps each bridged to mono. As they are Monoblocks that does mean a little bit more power than an SE84UFO amp due to the dual power supplies, but probably 10 percent more, not the much larger power increase from "mono-ing" the amps..

https://www.decware.com/newsite/SE84UFO3.html


Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by will on 07/25/23 at 06:29:32

Hey Lon,

When I got my "new" used 300B, it was different for me, without volume pots to factor into my gain tuning, always wide open. Still, surprisingly loud, the pre stages tend to be at similar levels as with my Torii for louder listening. But my system shifted from a minor hum I could not hear except within a few feet of the speakers, to a more notable/irritating one that if I listen carefully could be heard subtly, but pretty far away without music. With the amazing loudness of the 300B, I wondered if it had something to do with impedance into the amp being different...I would love a good explanation of impedance and impedance matching.

Anyway, back in the day, with some serious internal tuning for more speed and resolution from the ZRock2, what seemed like its self-noise from the transformer hum and the field it created got a little better. But it was audible in a little different ways being a more complex hum... still better for me, even at pretty high gain levels. And at normal gain levels using a ZBIT, ZRock2, and CSP3 before my Torii gain, hard to hear it.

With the new amp that all changed. To verify source, I first did a bunch of tube and cable/ground loop tests with some OK results, but not big shifts. This seemed like something worse. So I ran the 300B straight from the ZBIT. On minimal perusal the ZBIT seemed a pretty nice pre to me in this setup, and No noise... well, just a little hiss/hum, ear right next to the driver, but very quiet. Then I plugged in the CSP3 after the ZBIT, the hum got a touch louder, but barely there, so not sure if it was amplification from the CSP3, or the CSP3 adding a little, but guessing a bit of both. Then I plugged in the ZRock2 between ZBIT and CSP3, and it notably hummed, especially with gains up enough for loud listening... Making it more challenging, I discovered that around the same time my power company solved some of the variable high voltage here, but increased noise during high neighborhood use, so it was a sort of nightmare hum finding event.

I moved things in the ZRock further from its transformer and put major shields on all cables in it. I had gotten away previously not using shields like the original had, using a silver wire in oversized teflon tube for ground and/or "shield," and a cross woven UPOCC wire geometry over the teflon tube for my signal. But in this new setup especially, more official shields were needed, and at normal gain levels barely discernible hum then. But turn the ZRock and CSP3 up into a wide open amp... noisy for my temperament. So I made a little aluminum walls to shield around the transformer in the enclosure, which also helped some. Seems in this setup, the the Zrock noise was amplified by the pre and amp, and though I naturally thought the noise was from the "new thing," the amp without the ZRock was notably quiet. Barring intentional masking, or removing the transformer from the ZR2 box, I can't think of what else to do. But luckily, at my preferred gain balancing levels, the hum is minor now. I don't really notice it except close to the speakers when my power is noisier. But bypass the ZRock, all is quiet.

Long story, but just wondering if you identified the hum specifically to the new amp, or if ...like me, it may be that the new amp with the rest sets up and amplifies other hum more than the amp creating it???


Also recalling that in the past none of my Decware amps got through the earlier phases of burnin until 200-300 hours when less ups and downs, and more subtle info "arrived" more completely. And they kept improving with subtler presentation up into 500-600 and beyond. I wonder if Steve's 300B is different for some reasons?

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Ghostship on 07/25/23 at 09:45:57

I have found that hum is dependent on tubes. The economy Chinese tubes had zero hum. WE300B had a slight but noticeable hum with both 5U4G and less with 5AR4-WC (Cryotone) that couldn't be adjusted away with the hum pot knobs. The Cryotone 300B-WC initially had a very slight hum, but it went away with about ~200 hours on the tubes and ~500 on the Sarah.

Speaking of break-in, I am fully confident you will find the refinement and intimacy you are currently missing as soon as your tubes and Sarah have a couple hundred more hours of seasoning. I am at ~600 hours now, and there is absolutely no comparison to the first 100-200 hours when the sound quality fluctuated on a daily basis.

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Lon on 07/25/23 at 09:57:40

I don't have the skill to move parts around and the way that the system is set up now as far as positioning and sequencing the components is how it has to be to get the sound I need, so. . . I am reporting that I have hum that I didn't have with my previous amps in the same requisite situation. And to be honest it doesn't seem to me to be the type of hum that goes away, but if it does I'll be happy to report it. It will be quite some time, months or more, before I have another pair of 300B tubes to compare so I have none to compare--it may be THESE 300B tubes, or not. I'll mention hum no more until there are hundreds of hours on the amp and if it still persists.

I can barely hear it at my listening seat 9 feet away, I have to strain.

As for the refinement. . . I don't doubt that the SEWE300B with plenty of additional hours will close the gap, but I suspect there will still remain a bit of contrast in what I am calling "refinement" between the amps. We'll see.

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Lon on 07/25/23 at 10:06:16

Oh and I want to report one thing, about the Sophia Electric Aqua 274B. I thought I had been introducing a new one into the amp but apparently not as I discovered my new, previously unused one, still in the bubble wrap. So I tried that one. No arcing, just constiently starting up fine and dandy, and sounding fantastic in this amp with its "sister" tubes, the Classic 300B. I tried that previous Aqua in the Taboo and it did a tiny arc powering up. So it's going into retirement. So it seems the Aqua is a great tube for the SEWE300B as I have it configured.

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Same Old DD on 07/25/23 at 12:29:17


Lon wrote on 07/24/23 at 22:05:36:
Aren't mono'ed SEs about the same power as a stereo Sarah?

DD, "Mono'd ZEN amps" would be within the range (probably about 5 amps or so in comparison to the 4 to 7 the SEWE300B can be configured to with voltage regulation tube variations) and similarly powered to the SEWE300B.

But MY SE84UFO3 are not "mono'd" but MONOBLOCK, i.e one chassis and power supply per channel. ]


Sorry, Lon. I was not thinking it through with that question.
I shouldn't try to post when I'm exhausted. Worrisome times this past week with my mom in for surgery again, several states away.
Sometimes worrying and waiting can be as tiresome as physical labor, if not more so.


Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Lon on 07/25/23 at 12:36:13

Absolutely, I know all too well that waiting and worrying thing. .. especially with medical matters. Hope all goes well.

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Same Old DD on 07/25/23 at 13:34:03

Thanks, Lon.
Seems fine for now, but she turns 87 next week and has had three surgeries in three years. I begin to wonder what is left for them to whack at.
She has CML, form of leukemia, kept in check with a barrage of drugs mostly. This showed up at age 70 and she had a 5% chance to live five years. It has been seventeen now.
She's a fighter!

[smiley=icqlite20.png]

Enough personal stuff.

Let's get back to your bothersome hum.


Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Lon on 07/25/23 at 13:37:26

Nah, I'm not talking about hum. That's done for now. And now I have a big issue with my transport and have frustrated myself so much that I have to step away and chill with my wife and TV for a few hours. Sigh.

I hope for the best for Mom. She's a fighter and wants to live. I miss my Mom every day (she made it to 82) and hope you can have more years!

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Same Old DD on 07/25/23 at 13:46:27

Thanks again, Lon.

I know tubes can take time to "settle" in after being left idle for a generation or two with no voltage anywhere near them as with many NOS I have bought.

I have no experience with a 300B amp, hence my edge of the chair interest with this thread.
I do have much wider experience with guitar amps and all those rectifier and power tube issues concerning hum from varying just one tube sometimes.

I am enjoying the reports of your exploration.
Don't worry if it feels like a blow by blow. You can be our Cosell as you sum it up!

Good luck your transport issue and enjoy your chill time.
Nothing better than bumping elbows over a snack tray with my best friend in front of some movie we've both seen a few times.

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Matchstikman on 07/25/23 at 15:19:53

Lon, what do you mean by "arcing?"

When I think of arcing I picture what happens in the microwave when I put something in there that shouldn't be there and a bolt of lighting flashes and scares the crap out of me.

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by CAJames on 07/25/23 at 15:45:07


Quote:
Posted by: Ghostship      Posted on: Today at 01:45:57

I have found that hum is dependent on tubes. The economy Chinese tubes had zero hum. WE300B had a slight but noticeable hum...


I've had the same experience. My Chinese tubes are dead quiet, the Takatsukis have a little bit hum. My amp is SS rectified so no opportunity to try different rectifiers, but it does have hum balance pots. Adjusting the pots will completely eliminate 60 Hz "filament hum" but there is a little 120 Hz buzz that remains. It decreases as the amp warms up, but its still there after several hours. Hum is a bit of a trigger for me but I guess I'm learning to live with it.

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Lon on 07/25/23 at 15:59:12

Hopefully you'll never experience this, but when a rectifier is badly suited for its application or aging. . . or whatever just sometimes . . . When powered on there's a little arc, a tiny lightning bolt if you will, that flashes within the tube--I usually see it happening at the top as I turn the amp on either from the regenerator (main system, amp on lowest shelf) or switching on while standing over the amp or preamp which is low down on a stand in my other two systems, and I'm looking right down on the rectifier.

It's not a good thing, a scary thing if you have an expensive fuse in the amp!

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Ghostship on 07/25/23 at 16:58:36

My Decware-branded 5U4G when paired with the WE300Bs arced a couple of times and once even made a noise that scared the crap out of me. I am happy I like the sound of the Cryotone 5AR4 because they also are slow-start and are hopefully causing less stress on the tubes and internals.

I'm not sensitive to hum, so long as it's not annoying from my listening position I'm fine. It's just that Steve made mention earlier in the thread that we could expect a slight amount of hum from 100dB speakers...and that prompted people in other forums to conclude that the Sarah is a poor design that hums...

So, one of the things I've been listening for is "hum" with my 95dB speakers, and then noted how changing the tubes changed the "hum". I was very happy to know that there wasn't any hum with some tube sets, so I'm good...lmao.

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Junker on 07/25/23 at 17:57:51

An AC heater will alway have more noise than a DC heater and can be seen on an oscilloscope or heard if you have very high sensitivity speakers. Some people say that AC sounds better if the design has a relatively low hum, and based on your speakers and seating distance...and sensitivity to it.

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by CAJames on 07/25/23 at 18:04:45


Quote:
Posted by: Ghostship      Posted on: Today at 08:58:36

...It's just that Steve made mention earlier in the thread that we could expect a slight amount of hum from 100dB speakers...and that prompted people in other forums to conclude that the Sarah is a poor design that hums...




Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Lon on 07/25/23 at 21:36:14

That's what I've read too Junker. I'm not sensitive to hum as far as a tiny bit of it bothering me, but I can hear hum pretty clearly even at very low levels. That's been my experience with tube amps ever since my Dad's Dynaco set-up of the early 'sixties through the early 'nineties. I almost always here a tiny bit. The notable exceptions being my CSP3 and Taboo IV with the Anniversary mods--with headphones those are dead quiet. The Monoblocks are pretty darn nearly hum-free with the HR-1 speakers.

It may well be that the Sophia Electric Classic 300B (which were bought as a demo pair, so not brand new, unbroken in entirely) are the source of the hum. I don't have any other 300B to compare. Either way I'm perfectly fine with the tiny bit produced.

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Junker on 07/25/23 at 22:04:28

Yeah I'm used to it with my Shindo 6V6 push-pull too. Thing is that push-pull should have common mode cancelation of a lot of that hum, but it is a small integrated and solid-state rectified with well over 100dB speakers. Same here... I can hear it w/o music playing from seating position but not at all with any content playing. SETs lack that common mode noise rejection so no way to completely eliminate it as I understand it.

I thought this was a pretty good post on the issue. It's common to all SET designs apparently and (linear? square?) proportional to the heater voltage for that tube type: 2A3<300B<845 (e.g.)

https://diyaudioprojects.com/Forum/viewtopic.php?t=4925#p41856

I'm pretty sure those copper transformer shields will help lower the noise floor too. I'd love to see the oscilloscope difference with those installed, but they sure look good. I ordered them too. ;)

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Tony on 07/25/23 at 22:06:20


Referring to Sarah's hum, Ghostship said

I'm not sensitive to hum, so long as it's not annoying from my listening position, I'm fine. It's just that Steve made mention earlier in the thread that we could expect a slight amount of hum from 100dB speakers...and that prompted people in other forums to conclude that the Sarah is a poor design that hums...

I would not think of design flaws, but this report concerns me as one who is sensitive to hum. After 12 months of waiting in line and another 12 to 18 months to go, I would be crestfallen if I could hear a hum from the listening position. I have had three Decware amps, and they all have some hum, but not from the listening chair. In one case, it took a lot of room treatment, but it quieted down.

Good to hear that it might be managed by tube choice. Thanks for the report. For me, an important topic to follow.

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Junker on 07/25/23 at 22:09:39

Just on another personal note about hum...

I have had it in transformers from DC in the lines at my place in Santa Cruz. It's hard to eliminate because it could be coming from your neighbors house, your appliances, as well as noise from wifi and all of the digital devices around our homes that were not there 20 years ago.

Personally, I would seriously consider Decware's Isolation transformer. I have a Mr. T for my Shindo and will consider one from Decware as well. It could hum from the DC, but it's easy to place that out of the way, and it would lower a lot of noise and hum from the connected equipment and from being amplified if you are sensitive to it.

https://www.decwareproducts.com/zlc

A lot of people think they have high sensitivity speakers that are really generously rated compared to compression driver horns like the Klipsch LaScala, and various horns from vintage Altec, Tannoy, etc. 90 @ 1m @ 2.83v is very different than 105dB rated for 1w at 16 ohms from 9-10 ft! I have to run my volume control down to where I almost lose channel balance with a 0.6v input.

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Lon on 07/25/23 at 23:13:32


Junker wrote on 07/25/23 at 22:04:28:
I'm pretty sure those copper transformer shields will help lower the noise floor too. I'd love to see the oscilloscope difference with those installed, but they sure look good. I ordered them too. ;)


They may. They are just copper-plated though, not entirely copper, not sure how much would make a difference.


Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Junker on 07/26/23 at 00:12:08

I didn’t realize that Lon! If it’s just cosmetic then I may remove that option. I thought they were stamped copper sheet.

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Kamran on 07/26/23 at 01:23:56

I’m pretty sure it’s cosmetic only.  That said, I’m having a change of heart (the copper has grown on me) after looking at endless pictures and I’m planning on upgrading.

On the subject of hum, is the hum pot making any impact?

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Lon on 07/26/23 at 01:46:53

Well I may be wrong but I thought that was the word on this forum. That real copper end plates would be much more expensive.

I do hope I'm wrong. They are beautiful on my amp.

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Lon on 07/26/23 at 02:49:35

Well, I'm not the definitive word, perhaps Steve will set us straight. I had assumed it was copper made but when this was first discussed the consensus here seemed to be that it was electro-plated. But I agree that it is expensive for that. . . though I have to say beautifully done, no question there. And no matter, I'm very glad to have them on mine.

Copper plate top. . . not sure. I actually think this top plate is my favorite of all those offered by Decware. Looks great in person.

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Junker on 07/26/23 at 02:52:02

Hey Lon thats true. I never saw anything about plating. Do you have any post links for that? I saw a few pics when he presented it but don’t remember it saying anything one way or another. I always assumed it was Cu with a clear coat.

Cool about that top plate Lon. I thought your 25th had a gorgeous plate so that’s high praise from you.

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Lon on 07/26/23 at 02:55:53

I'm about to go to bed so I'm not going to or able to search the thread for what may be there. I bet you can find it one way or another. See you on the other side.

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by JBzen on 07/26/23 at 08:30:54

The power tranny copper cans are made of heavy gauge steel plated with copper. Quality copper plating on steel involves added processes to electro coat therefore the addition expense.

John

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Ghostship on 07/26/23 at 09:45:18


Quote:
On the subject of hum, is the hum pot making any impact?

Yes, the hum pot knobs work. With the economy tube set I had zero hum, even with my ear right up against the speakers. When I swapped in the WE300Bs there was a hum, and the hum pot adjustments reduced the sound significantly, but not entirely.

Then again, hum can be caused by many sources. You can induce hum with these knobs to hear what it sounds like, then remove it again. The hum I was getting from tubes is clearly at a different frequency.

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Tony on 07/26/23 at 14:25:09


When I swapped in the WE300Bs there was a hum, and the hum pot adjustments reduced the sound significantly, but not entirely.



Ghostship, good information - thanks. What was left of the hum after using the hum pot with the WE300Bs, could that be heard from the listening position? I remember you have excellent cables (power and interconnects) overall. Do they contribute to minimizing the hum along with the pot?

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Lon on 07/26/23 at 14:32:42


JBzen wrote on 07/26/23 at 08:30:54:
The power tranny copper cans are made of heavy gauge steel plated with copper. Quality copper plating on steel involves added processes to electro coat therefore the additional expense.

John

Thanks John.

That's a huge tranny and big end caps. Looks so formidable!

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by CAJames on 07/26/23 at 15:17:52


Quote:
Posted by: Ghostship      Posted on: Today at 01:45:18

Yes, the hum pot knobs work...Then again, hum can be caused by many sources. You can induce hum with these knobs to hear what it sounds like, then remove it again. The hum I was getting from tubes is clearly at a different frequency.


Yes. Just to be clear the hum pots in a 300B amp like Sarah (and my non-Decware amp) have one specific purpose: to balance the AC heater current to the 300B tubes. Most other types of amps, including all other Decware amps, use DC for the heater/filament current so this removes one special kind of hum. With the pots out of adjustment you can clearly hear 60 Hz hum that increases or decreases as you move the pots. And in general you can completely remove it when you get the pots adjusted correctly.

Beyond that my experience is the same as Ghostship's: with some 300B tubes once the pots are adjusted the amp is quiet. But with my Takatsuki there is a bit of 120 Hz buzz that remains and is unaffected by the hum pot. As the amp warms up the hum is reduced, but it never goes away. Hum is a trigger for me too, but the Takatsuki tubes are so much better than the (quiet) Chinese tubes I deal with it.

I think the bottom line is if you get a 300B amp you're going to have to be prepared to deal with some hum. If it is a problem you'll (almost certainly) be able to deal with it by swapping 300B tubes, but you may have to compromise the ultimate sound quality of the amp if you insist on "quiet." And buy more than one pair of 300B tubes.




Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Ghostship on 07/26/23 at 15:21:57


Quote:
What was left of the hum after using the hum pot with the WE300Bs, could that be heard from the listening position? I remember you have excellent cables (power and interconnects) overall. Do they contribute to minimizing the hum along with the pot?


No, the hum could not be heard from my listening position, which is less than 9 feet from the speakers.

I believe good quality cables, such as those sold by Decware, will decrease the chance of noise reaching the speakers, and contribute to a blacker background/lower noise floor. Of course, these aren't made by Harry Potter, so you have to do your part to eliminate sources of noise as much as possible too.

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Kamran on 07/26/23 at 16:17:45

LOL at the Harry Potter reference!

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Junker on 07/26/23 at 23:53:42

I was thinking a little more about the power transformer, and actually I think I understand why they did it the way they did. While copper would be a good RF (Gaussian) shield, I believe they need good magnetic shielding in that application which would require mu-metal or soft steel. So, the way they did it probably provides good magnetic shielding with the attractive appearance of copper.

P.S.: Also just FYI the Western Electric End User Guide recommends using an AC heater as it prevents electromigration, electrolysis, and potential voltage gradients that can affect transconductance performance.

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Kamran on 07/28/23 at 20:14:33

Just a random thought—-The number of Sarah’s shipped (Lon’s was #16) doesn’t jive with the number of owners who are active on the forum for some reason.  It seems like most Sarah owners so far, either don’t visit the forum or just read and not participate.  This is interesting considering how nascent Sarah is and any person making their decision based on the Audiophiliacs review, would be newer on the list.  Therefore, all the folks who have been getting Sarah’s so far, changed their original orders from 2020–which almost certainly means that they have been actively following this development thread.

I guess what I am trying to say is that I would have expected more owners to speak up by now.

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by CAJames on 07/28/23 at 20:38:46


Quote:
Posted by: Kamran      Posted on: Today at 12:14:33

...I guess what I am trying to say is that I would have expected more owners to speak up by now.


Not just Sarah. Given the hundreds of amps Decware has shipped in the last year or so there aren't very many new faces anywhere. I suppose they are too busy listening to music to bother with a message board.

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Kamran on 07/29/23 at 15:15:36

Good point CAJames.

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Lon on 08/01/23 at 16:03:51

Wow, when I first got this amp I didn't hear much difference between the two speaker ohm switches on the amp and just decided on one.  

Today, on a lark, I decided to try these switches again. Immediately the other position sounded more laid back and the sound became easier, relaxed. That's how I like it! It's going to stay that way. I tried the "bias" switches in the front of the amp and still prefer the "back" position.

This amp is sounding better every day. If you're in the queue for this one I would be very surprised if you didn't immediately feel it was worth the wait.

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Ghostship on 08/01/23 at 21:07:45

OMG, this is just another example of how amazing Steve's design is...
I prefer my Sarah set exactly the opposite!! I love the bite and energy the ohm switches give me, and the in-your-face presentation the bias switches give. That's awesome!


Quote:
This amp is sounding better every day. If you're in the queue for this one I would be very surprised if you didn't immediately feel it was worth the wait.

I agree completely.

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Lon on 08/01/23 at 21:11:49

Yes, I know you're zest is in the other direction. I can't handle the treble energy there, unless I can sit much further back than the nine feet I'm forced to in my house.

There are so many possible "amps" in any of these designs. I can't imagine being locked into the sound of a solid state design again--these components are like chameleons or shape shifters and we can each find our bliss.

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by will on 08/01/23 at 21:27:33

I love Steve's attention to user adjustability...I can be going along with set settings arrived at over years, and change up speakers or components, tubes or cables, and find some of the set settings are no longer set.

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Ghostship on 08/02/23 at 11:22:15

It's really a feature that can't be overstated, and I don't know of any other amplifier manufactured this way.

Usually, tube amps require a specific set of tubes to sound their best. Meaning, one set of tubes and it's as good as it gets, and with other tubes the sound ranges from less good to unlistenable; like putting lipstick on a pig.

Worse yet, when you purchase that amp and equip it with the Goldilocks tubes, you either like the voicing and sound quality, or you don't. Or maybe a better analogy would be you put the best shoes on her feet hoping for Cinderella, but the best you can accomplish is one of the step-sisters.

But with a Decware amp like the Sarah, it's like speed-dating Victoria's Secret models. From the settings of the ohm and bias switches, to the potential voltage drop of the voltage regulator tubes, and the rectifier, and the input driver stage, and the main input, to the brand of output tubes...every version is equally gorgeous. So you may have Behati Prinsloo in jeans and a T-shirt, or NOS Gisele Bündchen in a little black dinner dress, or Rosie Huntington-Whiteley in one of your dress shirts...you will find no room for complaint or disappointment.

The benefit is, you can be assured you will discover a combination perfect for you and fall head-over-heels, and spend the rest of your life listening in total amazement at your good fortune.


Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by will on 08/02/23 at 16:13:56

Yes, amp settings and tubes, and cables, and feet.... a lot of tuning potential. With tubes, beyond voltage drop of VRs and rectifiers, I love how makes and vintages of the same spec of any of the tubes sound different, some subtler, but most pretty notable in how they contribute differently to the ranges of sonic balances. Like two different OC2s (or variants), you are likely to hear enough difference to have a preference, and maybe, like Lon reported earlier, liking two variants together for the 3 "OC2" positions. Then rectifiers, inputs, etc.... usually more profound shifts between tubes of the same type and spec, but different vintage and/or makers. Then there are workable variations of different types in a given position.... Combining lots of subtler and not so subtle tuning potential just with tubes makes for a pretty amazing range for sound and feel within the base signature of the amp.

If we fall deeper into tuning, especially with a lot of Decware, tuning seems to offer endless combinations that are compelling, even within a pretty narrow and refined range of balances defined by system, room, and preferences over time.

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Kamran on 08/03/23 at 04:10:59


Quote:
But with a Decware amp like the Sarah, it's like speed-dating Victoria's Secret models


We are already lusting after the amp and now this—-lol Ghostship—-you’re playing with our collective sanity!

On a serious note—this talk of two different settings on Sarah (laid back vs. more forward with bite) reminds of the A/B switch on the ZR2.  So my question is—how is the switch different from what the ZR2 is already providing.  To put another way—-if you like the forward switch position on Sarah, is the B setting on the ZR2 pushing things too far?

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Lon on 08/03/23 at 17:39:34

Speaking for myself, the front bias switch on the SEWE300B is not like a ZROCK2. It has nowhere near as wide a range of frequency change.

For me the "B" switch on the ZROCK2 is never in use. It does not offer enough treble reduction for my room and system and ears.

I made one change in my tube complement now that the amp has seasoned in a bit more and there is more bass response--I replaced the front position input tube that was an Amperex 6085 with an orange labeled Amperex 12AU7. A step towards a warmer more analog sound.

I'm very happy with this amp.

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Lon on 08/05/23 at 22:44:18

Man I am getting great sound yesterday and today. The amp is seasoning in well, and the new transport I put in place of the one that has the cd stuck within it has opened up from its long time of un-use (it sat unused a few years before I bought it according to the seller, it was not even fully broken in).

As a result I did some more experimenting with the tube complement to see what can be unfolded. I thought that the 7308s I was using as driver tubes were being a bit too "exact" for the present state and I swapped them out for the red-tipped 6N6P that I had been experimenting with early on in the process. That opened up a wide sound-field that was just a little "undefined" as far as imaging but really dynamic and textured. So I hunted through the four dozen or so 12AU7 types I had and found (stored incorrectly) one of the first 6085 tubes I had bought, an Adzam made in Holland, that was orphaned as I accidentally broke the other tube it was matched to, and I had been using 6085s as matched pairs. Well this is the warmest yet very focused of the type I have and it immediately dialed in the sound to be a rich and layered panorama . . . I'm getting the best sound yet.

Like the Monoblocks I bonded with so deeply this amp is a chameleon--it responds to every tube change. As I have only one pair of 300Bs, and a rectifier designed to work with them that does nobly, I have viewed those as anchors. I think the C751 and 2 0A2 are serving as a fantastic "foundation" for the input and driver tubes, so it's been the input and driver tubes that I have been paying most attention to. Which has proven to be rewarding--this is sound that rivals the best the Monoblocks have delivered, yet in its different, graceful way. This is one fine amp!

Two things that I have come to realize and after mulling over accept as near truths. One: this amp is seductive with its sense of power in comparison to the Monoblocks. With the Monoblocks I was always conscious that I had a limitation that I needed to work within. I did manage to do so and get exquisite sound so I relaxed into that. With the SEWE300B there seems no ceiling to worry about banging into and as a result I think I ease into the sound a bit more, rather than the sound itself has more ease. Secondly, the very nature of the Monoblocks adds a definition and precision to the sound that made an almost stereoptic vision to the sound, a bit more depth, and a more completely defined center that distinguishes itself. The SEWE300B in contrast has more center "fill" and a more blended soundstage that stretches across more than flows behind. This is not something that will hit you over the head, it's something noticed over time and it's as easy to be involved and enveloped with this "character" as it is to the Monoblocks' "character."

I love both of these forms of amplification--truly phenomenal designs.

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by CAJames on 08/06/23 at 17:59:27


Quote:
Posted by: Lon      Posted on: Yesterday at 14:44:18

...I think the C751 and 2 0A2 are serving as a fantastic "foundation" for the input and driver tubes, so it's been the input and driver tubes that I have been paying most attention to...


I've always found this interesting. To me, based on theory, I would think each tube would respond differently to the voltage drop provided by the VR tubes. So I would think for each input tube one would need to try every possible VR tube to find the operating point that gets the best results (however you define them). But its seems like you do the opposite: you find the VR tubes you like and they seem to work best for all the tubes you try. This isn't a judgement, just an observation and yet another example of why listening always trumps theory. I look forward to doing my own experiments in a few months when I get my UFO25s.

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Lon on 08/06/23 at 18:25:52

I have about fifteen years of experience using voltage regulation tubes in Toriis and Zen Monoblocks and this guides my listening. I base my decisions on past experience and listening (which amounts to about the same thing).

Honestly it seems my experience that in general each tube type responds with some consistency to the differing voltage from the regulation tubes. So the voltage regulation tube combo seems foundational to me, and after finding that general character to the sound I can roll input and driver tubes for more refined tailoring.

The voltage regulation can impart character similar to the bias switching. If I preferred a big bold sound I'd use 0C2 for the output tubes, they would give that nature to the overall sound. I don't; I find I like the lusher, less "forceful" sound that 0A2 can deliver. In the larger voltage regulation tubes I like the sound 0B3 can deliver for power tubes, but 0B2 don't quite have the same allure for me for input and driver tubes.

In the case of the SEWE300B I'm hampered by the fact that I don't have one tuning tool I've relied on, the Treble Cut Circuit, and I need to combat the over-ripe treble that I find to be the easiest frequency balance to find. (That's the reason I avoid Wathen tubes because the input tubes I did try had far too much treble energy for me.) I can't do room treatment or change my ears so these other adjustments are what I can rely on. Certain voltage regulation and bias settings are de rigeur for me, and also settings on the P15 regenerator.

My personal cross to bear is this reaction to high frequencies. It is one reason I am so happy to use Decware systems which allow for tailoring of the sound. I am able to do without the Treble Cut Circuit on this amp--which Steve says he cannot provide--by careful choice of tubes and settings. And years of experience help me to get "in the zone" quickly.

Interestingly in this thread Steve said at one point he favors the 0C2/0A2 x 2 combo of voltage regulation and he also settled on the 6N6P tubes, those are where I found the foundation for voltage regulation and driver tubes. I'm sure you'll have fun finding your tube complement.

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by will on 08/06/23 at 18:56:35

I find that VRs are easy tuning tools too. Each gives more or less push to the following tube (and therefore beyond) so can sound relatively powerful, but more from its effect on others than its own signature I think. So if you are running higher power VRs, and the amp is sounding really good except maybe too pushed/full/forceful, and this relatively consistantly requires a lot of tube experimenting to work around, using a VR with more voltage drop can be an easier overall fix than trying to change/balance the input, driver, or power tube....The VR effecting how those sound, it can create a baseline that can help the amp fit a system/room/tastes, and allow more of a range of the other tubes to work more easily once the VRs are close to balanced for the amp and system. They all have some signature of their own for sure, but as much, or more, they seem like a power switch for the other tubes, so I consider them foundational also.

With my Toriis, once found, I will play now and then with VRs, but eventually tend to end up where I have been satisfied for years, a little less bold and forceful than stock, and all the other tube choices starting from a more neutral baseline with better balances for my system/room. That said, my basic system does not tend to change much in ways that might make VRs choices different, having come to fairly narrow ranges of balance needs, and being more a refiner than a buyer to try to improve things.

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Lon on 08/08/23 at 12:23:07

Shake it up!

The amp seemed to move to another level of sonic clarity and with talk of voltage regulation tubes and their effects I did a little rolling and reversed the set up, an Amperex 0A2 for the input tubes and a pair of Mullard 75C1 for the driver tubes. And I swapped the 6N6P for a pair of Amperex Holland 7308. This allowed me to use the "Lifted Ground" setting on my DAC which yields a glowing resonant sound to the playback that is just a shade bass-light. These voltage regulation tubes and the 7308s almost eradicate this bit of lightweight bass sound. I'm letting this simmer in as I listen to wonderful music I'm familiar with as well as a few new acquisitions that have arrived lately.

This amp really delivers with its flexibility and it's dynamic signature. And it's thoroughly a Decware amp, the house sound is unmistakable.

Present combo:

1 each Amperex Holland 12AU7
2 each Amperex Holland 7308
2 each Mullard 75C1
1 each Amperex 0A2
1 each Sophia Electric Aqua 274B
2 each Sophia Electric Classic 300B

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by will on 08/08/23 at 17:46:21

Looks like a beautiful combination, and exciting the amp is opening up! Happy days!

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Lon on 08/17/23 at 16:24:24

I have over 300 hours on the amp and I've a better handle on its operation and sound and it is sounding very very good.

As is my source, the PS Audio DSD DAC Mk2, which was given a new firmware update that not only improved an already excellent sound quality but has offered new settings that improve the sound quality, such as powering off all inputs but one in use and turning off the Wifi.

As a result I experimented a bit yesterday morning and swapped out the voltage regulation tube for the input tube to a Mullard 0B2. This just dialed in the frequency balance right where I want it to be. For now it's a great choice and is dishing out the goods.

Tube complement:

1 each Amperex Holland 12AU7
2 each Amperex Holland 7308
2 each Mullard 75C1
1 each Mullard 0B2
1 each Sophia Electric Aqua 274B
2 each Sophia Electric Classic 300B

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by will on 08/17/23 at 17:40:31

Nice seeming tube combination! I look forward to whenever you get to trying more 300Bs to see how they compare with the Sophias, and how tuning them with the other tubes into your sound preferences might be different.

Seems like in the past with my Decware amps, roughly 300 hours gets you past the more obvious up and down shifts and more into pure refinement. How has that been with the amp? With new tubes, hard to say for sure I know. In my Simple Wave amp, after one of a used EML 300B pair that came with the amp failed, I was using some Guiguang ceramic base 300Bs... low cost, but powerful feeling, clear, quite open, and nicely resolving tube here. To me, not designed to be euphonic, but having that big tube SET character that pulls nice harmonics. Other subtle burnin stuff going on, but I think these tubes were still getting better into the 200 hour + range.

But relative to your new Decware 300B, I am wondering more about those sometimes subtle shifts between the extremes of duller/thicker and more open and resolving feeling? Also I wonder if the ongoing design refinement, and perhaps the ZRock heritage pre board mitigates this effect?

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Lon on 08/17/23 at 18:38:37

It's going to be some time before I try more 300B tubes. I've had a summer full of appliance and component problems from oven, dryer, transport and last week my laptop had to be replaced. I'm enjoying a brand new laptop that is better than I've ever had, but it cost me more than a pair of WE300B and took away all that money and more from my audio budget, which already shrank in May when my wife stopped working. That said, I'm very very happy with these Sophia Electric and my tube-rolling shows me that it isn't hooey when the brand says they were designed to work with the Aqua 274B--these two tube types fit hand in glove. My next tube will likely be the WE300B, so quite a way down the road from now. I'm too gun-shy to try the Wathen.

There have been a lot of variables in play since the amp arrived: new tubes mixed with old, another transport in play, new firmware for my DAC. It does seen that most of the "shifting" of sound characteristics has slowed and I'm very happy where they have slid into right now, though I do have the feeling from past Decware "Anniversary modded" components that there are going to be subtle changes ahead a few hundred hours or so, probably another month.

Overall this does not seem to sound like the only two 300B amps I heard before--it's a Decware amp, no question, has that clarity and speed. It also does have a bass heft and smooth treble and open midrange that I know the 300B tube is contributing to and that allows me to do without the treble cut circuit, though I'm nearly maxed out on ZROCK2 adjustment.

I've been playing a lot of material relatively new to me, and also material that is very familiar and I have to say I don't really hear shifts between dull and open this far into the break-in and that the character of the playback is accurate in comparison with the also accurate Monoblocks. I haven't gone beyond putting a ceramic fuse in when the glass one blew in the first seconds, so I know a fuse will be another territory to cross and map. In time. I have a relatively inexpensive fuse to try first, and then I'll try a heavier one if I feel the itch. . .and when the funds have slowly stacked up enough.

I do think the preamp stage is part of why I am getting the tonal results that are pleasing me, and I'm sure that the ZTPRE is a great feeder to the amp from my source. All in all, I'll miss my Monoblocks but I can't keep both them and the SEWE300B, and the SEWE300B is going to stay.

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Ghostship on 08/17/23 at 20:18:35

I figured you were going to come to that conclusion...hehehehe. Congrats Lon. I know my Sarah isn't going anywhere... ;D

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Lon on 08/17/23 at 20:38:28

Yes. . . it breaks my heart though. But I can't use both, my two other systems are just right and there's no physical room for Monoblocks there.

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Kamran on 08/17/23 at 21:22:17

Yea, that’s what I figured too.  Time to find them another loving home where they will be used and cherished.

That said, I had a question for Sarah owners who also own a ZR2.  Is the ZR2 still meaningful given the additional density of the 300b tubes and the built-in gain stage.  Lon, you might be an exception here considering your preference for limiting highs and perhaps are using the ZR2 to ameliorate that problem?

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by CAJames on 08/17/23 at 21:38:34

What they said. Glad you and Sarah are so happy together.

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by will on 08/17/23 at 22:31:47

From Lon: "Overall this does not seem to sound like the only two 300B amps I heard before--it's a Decware amp, no question, has that clarity and speed. It also does have a bass heft and smooth treble and open midrange that I know the 300B tube is contributing to and that allows me to do without the treble cut circuit, though I'm nearly maxed out on ZROCK2 adjustment."

I am glad you are able to tune down treble and up bass as you need it! Sounds like it is a beautiful amp for your needs with the ZRock2 for toning it the ways you need...

Yes a Decware flavored signature seems to have been Steve's objective, and I had no doubt he would find it.

I wonder though... from reading, it seems like there must be other 300B amps designed to be more "modern" these days in comparison to the standards of the past where we might find them too slow, warm, and syrupy??? The 300B amp I got that was probably built over 10 years ago, was sort of in between, but what I would call on the modern side in this concept.

Now with some cap work mainly, coupling and power bypasses, it is a little slower than my seriously modified Torii IV, that work being about musically increasing and balancing natural immediacy and speed throughout, as well as resolution. But so far, with these big 300B power tubes and inputs and drivers, at least in this circuit, I am liking this amp a little bit slower. Even so, after the first work I did, I would say it is faster than the Torii IV after similar early mods, and that it would not be difficult to make it faster... which I will probably do after getting more used to it. It does have nice transformers and input and output jacks, nice internal cables, and uses Coleman boards to regulate the filament voltage on the 300Bs (thought by many a truly great sounding solution)... And I have put in really good coupling and bypass caps by sound. But in this setting, it is balanced, extended, and fast enough to not feel any drag. Sounds like really beautiful music to me.

So I don't know, as I think about these things combined, those are a lot of somewhat special improvements over many stock amps. But the nicer ones, including Steves, have good parts and design that utilize parts used well, to me Steve's conceptually seeming to be a really nice innovative design. So it does not surprise me how much folks are liking it.

Also seems those 300B tubes out now give a fair bit of choice of warm/slow/midrange oriented, versus fast/clear and extended.

With very limited personal experience with "300Bs," I am just wondering if a lot of the older school 300B sound and perception may be tradition and choice as much or more than inherent?

Everything is changing fast, I think thanks to designers like Steve who are music heads first, and makers second (apparently pretty rare), and I am thinking a lot is changing as innovative Eastern European and Chinese designers and makers find new and relatively low cost ways to make really nice stuff. Seems to be an amazing time in audio where a lot of perceived habitual impediments to the beauty are falling away fast...

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Lon on 08/17/23 at 22:59:55

Kamran, I thank my lucky stars Steve developed the ZROCK2, I have one in each of my systems, two fully loaded and one with just the Jupiter 2 caps as an option.

Don't look to me as an answerer as I can emphatically say I don't get the sounds that I do (and prefer and enjoy) without the ZROCK2 and as I have balanced sources the ZBIT. Others may not need these. I do.

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Lon on 08/17/23 at 23:15:24

Will, yes, I don't really have many answers. I know that Sophia Electric has been in the development of 300B tubes for years and I've liked their rectifiers so I'm not surprised I like their 300B Classics and think they are not a lower level tube pair. I'd like in time to compare then to the WE300B and having those two pairs I think I'd be good until I'm actogenarian unless I can't maintain the finances to keep this level of stereo system.

I don't know how to qualify what I read about 300B amps and how to compare them to the Decware. Online there's a Greek chorus of posters who love to mock and discredit Steve and his work. They fixate on his output transformers and think they should be much larger and can't possibly sound good. We know better that not only are his UFO transformers up to their tasks but they contribute to great sound, not weak and mushy bass as they say they "must." There are so many options now that if Steve hadn't made one, I'd have no "house sound" reference to deal with and would probably not have one.

The interesting thing to me is that from day one to now I really connect the sound of the SEWE300B and the SE84UFO3 Monoblocks as cousins or sibling amplifiers. They are both such flexible amplification systems that they can be molded into what one desires if one wants to take the time (and a bit of money) to  experiment and tailor. So in an important sense in my case it's how they drive the HR-1s. The HR-1s are not going anywhere. With the density of the ZTPRE, ZBIT and ZROCK2 and the modes and settings of the PS Audio P15 my Monoblocks work well with the HR-1s, but there's a cieling I could hit if I weren't skilled in getting around it. With the SEWE300B I have the headroom that I had with my Torii amps--BUT I have the SET sound character as well that I confess I honestly don't want to do without.

So, loving and being so bonded to the Decware sound I had to try out his 300B amp as it's been a question mark back in my consciousness. And now I know: it's a dream amp for me. Steve may come up with another amp that will test my temptation one day, but I'm not tempted by other manufacturers' 300B amps.

The SEWE300B is damned good. I'm sure there are others out there damned good as well, at different price points and with different designs, but the SEWE300B is one that fits into my musical taste sensations and cooperates with great outcome with my other components and the room I'm cordoned off in without treatment. A lucky thing, a happy thing.

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by will on 08/18/23 at 00:20:56

Yes I completely get it, including the macho audiophile arrogance problem. I imagine many of those are at least somewhat stuck in the past, and/or have learned a lot of what they "know" and preach so adamantly from incomplete tech ideology, and/or "knowledge" from reading other's opinions rather than "knowing" from open minded exploration and a lot of experience in that. I think it will almost always be the explorers that take things to new levels in meaningful ways, and at reasonable prices.

I suspect I might have ordered a SEWE300B had a few reviews not caused so many more folks to want Decware, and the resulting waiting list... (remember when we were just fan boys to so many out there)? Having had near death experiences myself, and having gone from imagining being with my exceptionally vibrant wife for a long time to come...to her pretty rapid cascade of bad luck and no longer being among us physically, I was not willing to wait several years to get a SEWE300B. Life is certainly more fragile than we are conditioned to think, and I keep trying to learn to prioritize how I use what time I have.

So I just jumped on a 300B that looked conceptually good, and at a pretty low price comparatively, knowing I could tune it if needed...

With some personalized variations on Steve's sound, this has been my foundation for so long, it is really all I know intimately. The 300B I found, maybe lucky, but I now have a lucid and real sound similar to my highly tuned Decware but with that amazing 300B character... so guessing the ways I have tuned my 300B, with Decware as a foundation, that it is likely to be similar to the SEWE300B in sound anyway.

At first my tricked out Torii was notably better in many ways, other than the big SE tube sound... and this 300B is big like yours in volume also. I still don't get that... how can 7-8 watts seem nearly as loud as 20-25. And I could hear a lot of potential there by opening and speeding the 300B up. Right now, I would guess it and the Torii each have better traits in their own ways. But I am enjoying the 300B a lot, and will explore the greater potential I know is there once I get up the nerve to lift it out. The thing is so heavy I had to get a sturdy kitchen cart on wheels to pull it out onto to more safely do work. Even now though, it is getting so good I am in no rush to compare... really liking the 300B qualities.

I like both my ZBIT and pretty tricked out ZR2 with this amp, though I use the ZR2 more as a gain tuner/enhancer than tone changer like you do. I use the B setting lately with a nicely balanced Mullard 12AT7, and using a fairly narrow gain range from about 9:30 being near unity in mine with this tube, to maybe 11:30. My 300B as it is now responds well to more signal push from this 12AT7 in the ZRock. For "pre" now, I have been tuning my Zstage (#2 serial number with two outputs), and it is sounding great with just cleaning the pot, some coupling and power supply cap bypassing work, and nicely resolving RCAs. More to try, but I really like this setup with or without the ZRock in. I always prefer the enhancing qualities and further gain tuning adjustability with the ZR2 in though. It is after the ZBIT and before the Zstage while the CSP3 waits patiently to come back in for comparison.

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by CAJames on 08/18/23 at 02:08:47


Quote:
Posted by: will      Posted on: Today at 14:31:47

...I wonder though... from reading, it seems like there must be other 300B amps designed to be more "modern" these days in comparison to the standards of the past where we might find them too slow, warm, and syrupy???


Mine, very similar to this:

http://www.thebestamp.com/Single-Ended_Tube_Amps/SE-300B-BAL.php

Definitely doesn't sound slow, warm or syrupy. In fact, if I had never heard a UFO amp, I probably would be completely happy with it. Esp. using the clever balanced input circuit.

Another part of the equation is the 300B tube itself. By all accounts the Elrog 300B tubes have a much more "modern" sound compared the WE 300B: fast, dynamic and extended. A lot of my online friends, who own more 300B tubes than I have socks, swear by them. Although, for me, the Takatsukis seem just right.

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Lon on 08/18/23 at 10:14:46

The Cary 300B amps that I have heard (one an integrated) I remember as sounding warm but not syrupy -- with that SET presentation that I heard for the first time when I first heard one and that I was so intrigued by that I sought out SET amps I could afford and soon owned the 27th Steve sold.

It's possible that someone coming straight from solid state with no history with tubes might think one of those sounded "syrupy" but I had grown up with my Dad's Dynaco system and had had about four years with an EICO amp from 1959 and I just heard them as warm without that push-pull scrambled and re-assembled sound.

Since that time (mid-nineties) I heard the first Cary there has been an explosion of 300B amps from China, Japan, the US and other parts of the world. Varying price points, varied circuitry, diverse transformers, caps and resistors, there have to be many different sounding ones available.

I'd love to hear the flagship Western Electric amp one day. . . but I'm so happy Steve decided to build the SEWE300B and I have one now. Even with less than 400 hours on mine it seems like a lifetime amp and there is likely none on the market as "flexible" in the manner of tube rolling voltage regulation tubes and none having that uniquely voiced preamp stage.

And that has the DNA of the Decware amplification character and presentation. That is perhaps what I was most surprised with even though I was expecting it!

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Mannytheseacow on 08/18/23 at 11:34:40

This thread has gone way off topic. The reader should come here to learn about Steve’s development of the 300b Sarah. There is an entire category on this board dedicated to this amp where new threads can be started to post reviews, debate tubes, etc.  If the reader wants to review the amp development he/she shouldn’t have to skim 1000 posts to find to find pertinent ones.
Sorry, there is some great discussion here but it’s in the wrong place. I apologize for being anal but this kind thing drives me nuts.

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Lon on 08/18/23 at 11:43:18

Sorry this sort of thing drives you nuts. Doesn't bother me and possibly others here. It's the way of forums in my experience. The development. . . is over. So the thread has served as a central conduit for SEWE300B discussion.

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by will on 08/18/23 at 15:14:06

Lon, I agree. All things considered, not only sound, this amp is a new culmination of Steve's creative learning and exploration. In his usual way, always learning, with the foundation from all his past work, he is always finding ways to innovate, new ways to refine and create beautiful sound, user flexibility and a really nice looking amp.  

Sorry Manny for being part of this sidetrack about the 300B development. These long threads are quite challenging to me too when looking for something. But now that the amp is out in people's rooms, and direct development finished...are finding good ways to tune the amp and impressions... or looking at challenges in availability, and looking at possibilities for alternatives... and other related ideas the development thread had brought up as Steve was designing the amp... are these aspects of the development of the amp, especially now that the new phase is integrating it in our own ways. I get yes, and I get no.

But I agree, when looking at the amount of discussion on this forum, and a number of threads really long, especially when wanting to find something specific... We would probably do well to try to at least try to tighten things up some. That said, how threads are named could often be more explanatory of the intended discussion also.

This forum has gotten to be a big lot of information, so trying to make it easier to navigate seems a worthy cause, but tricky when trying to figure out what threads of threads are interrelated and useful in the context of the baseline discussions, and which are not.


Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by Lon on 08/18/23 at 16:12:13

I think it's too late for this thread. The development IS over. All the posts about the development are at the front end of this thread. . . the ones from recent months are post-development. . . if someone is looking for information about the development of the amp they don't have to visit the posts from this spring and summer.

That's how I look at it. After the development stage people were in this thread looking for impressions from the first owners, asking questions of them, leading to discussions of tubes etc. A natural evolution of talk on forums.

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by LiquidBlue on 08/18/23 at 20:16:49

CAJames, FWIW, I was on the PartsConnexion website yesterday and happened to see they have Takatsuki 300B pairs on sale for 32% off at $1699. I have never gotten tubes from them, so can’t say anything more about that, but they’re new, so should be good.

Title: Re: DECWARE 300B Amp development thread
Post by CAJames on 08/18/23 at 21:11:55


Quote:
Posted by: LiquidBlue      Posted on: Today at 12:16:49

CAJames, FWIW, I was on the PartsConnexion website yesterday and happened to see they have Takatsuki 300B pairs on sale for 32% off at $1699. I have never gotten tubes from them, so can’t say anything more about that, but they’re new, so should be good.


That's where I got mine.

Highly recommended.

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