This might be a good time to mention that I don't think the work "dick" is on the bad word list anymore, I believe I took it off the list when I saw your Phillip K. D*ck predicament. ; )

Also nice update, and I agree with you.  That preamp injected in the mix is after you've had one, no longer optional.

Steve

Gosh, this 25th Anniversary Modified Experience is just. . . climbing a mountain. Sometimes you make a misstep with gain riding or tube-rolling and you hang on and regroup and get to a new height. You rest and then you feel you have an insight as to how to get up a little higher. . . .

This week I played around with input tubes and I now have for input tubes an entire complement of Amperex 7308 (mostly Holland, a few USA) with the exception of the ZROCK2 which has a tube Steve sent, a Sylvania 6189 that just seems near perfect in that component.

Wow. With the Tesla 0A2s, the Arcturus 0B3 and Cunningham Type 80 Globes in the Monoblocks and an RCA Type 80 Globe in the CSP3 I'm getting great sound of a new level perhaps.

I should stop, sit tight. Enjoy the view. But then others ignited a spark of curiosity of the 6NS7 types. So. . . in a few weeks I'll be trying those out. It never ends. Which with these quality components and this type of sound to listen to. . . is a great thing. Keeps us involved with the components and learning about them.

Things change. An audio friend convinced me to try some Synergistic Research Orange fuses. In my system I have an SR Blue in the P15, and all other fuses were Audio Magic Super fuses, which I really liked a lot. (All my Decware components had these fuses and my PS Audio components except for the P15 still have stock fuses, which PS Audio considers audiophile fuses, not the cheapest of possibilities).

So I put a pair of the Orange fuses  in the SE84UFO3 Monoblocks with the Anniversary mods. About two full weeks of changes happened. At first I missed the Audio Magic. Then about four days in the Orange began to show me that they were different, perhaps not better. During the second week the Orange proved their worth, and they continued to impress.

The biggest differences between them was that there was a mid-bass film within the sound signature with the Audio Magic which went away with the Orange, and perhaps as a result the Orange provided a deeper imaging and sound stage, just a bit, but a noticeable bit.

This led me to a volley of tube rolling of the voltage rectification for the output tubes, and the voltage rectification for the components. I ended up with my trusty Arcturus 0B3 regulation tubes, and in the Monoblocks a pair of RCA 5V4G tubes. The RCA/Cunningham Type 80 globe remains in the CSP3 with the Anniversary mods.

As a result, another inch forward on the road to sonic bliss. I really like the frequency balance and sonic signature these changes have made and I roll along quite happily from disc to disc.

But in keeping with my true nature of restlessness . . . I ordered one of the new Purple fuses for my PS Audio P15 regenerator, and also a used Orange fuse to use in my Zen Line Conditioner in my audio visual system (which only has a stock fuse). The apple cart will begin to be upset tomorrow, but I'm pretty confident that replacing the Blue with a Purple will be a positive move. (The Blue will go into the P10 in my headphone system).

Amazing machines these--you can have so many different signatures just changing tubes. The one downside to the Monoblocks is one has to have TWO tubes. But the upside of just a bit more power is needed for me.

I've rolled various positions lately as my new improved front end led to some nice sonic subtle bits of discovery. With Westinghouse 0B3 Was nearly there but just a bit light in the lower frequencies. Rolling in a pair of RCA Type 80 short straight-shouldered rectifiers (I think these may have been the final evolution of this type?) set me right where I want to be.

I'm trying to resist the urge to pull the amps out, open them up, and roll in regulation tubes for the input. tubes. . . I haven't done that in some time, probably two years. And I'm resisting the urge to send my XTPE in for the 25th Anniversary mods, truly first world problems.

Well of course I did change a thing . . .or two.

I ended up going back to the Arcturus 0B3 voltage regulation tubes for the output tubes--with some material the 0D3W were just too "tart and tight." The 0B3, especially this pair of bottle-shaped, always give me the warmth and ambiance I need regardless of recording.

And ever since I introduced the modded PS Audio DSD DAC into the system with its Farad Super3 power supply for the analog output I have been trying to find just the right power cable for the Super3. Until last week the best fit was the new Decware DHC-3 which is a fantastic power cable for the money. But I still was chasing a bit of a "silvery" sound that was just a tad too bright for my system and decided I would retry the very first power cable I tried with the Super3, the PS Audio Perfectwave AC-12 that is connected to all my other components but one. And darned if it didn't solve my "silvery" sound issue and become the very best fit.

I think what has transpired is that the DAC and the Super3 both needed quite a bit of break-in when I got it and I have managed to get to the "all it can be stage" and that cable I first didn't quite like was in fact perfect after seasoning.

I now just can't believe how amazing the system sounds and am spinning disc after disc with delight.  And all this is possible because these 25th Anniversary modded components are so transparent and also musical that I can hear and address the limitations of each stage of the system and benefit from every little minor improvement. Wholly cow these are the cat's meow, as Steve's cats know.

The DHC-3 ended up in my headphone only system powering the CSP2+ with the Anniversary mods I have newly installed there and man it is doing a fantastic job. A better job than a .5 meter PS Audio AC-12 I was using before had been doing. Synergy. . . it's an elusive thing, a devil sometimes to pursue for a number of reasons, but so satisfying to find.

This thread has left me yearning to receive my modest system so I can begin the journey.
It's the journey not the destination
https://youtu.be/k3fz6CC45ok

Well Steve's output tubes from Cryotone mentioned above have been in use for hundreds of hours, and I did a comparison to my most recently used pair from Steve and there is a bit of a sonic improvement, I wouldn't say "game changing" by any means, but perhaps a bit smoother in the treble which is always welcome. The proof will be if I get years of use out of them. . . that will make them worth, gulp, four times the price or so.

The system sounds so good. I keep seeking a bit of lushness that I think I won't hear until my long wait is over and I have the Sarah 300B to listen to--I think that is the one element that distinguishes the two topologies and that I crave a bit. I've had to replace voltage regulation tubes for the input tubes and have RCA 0B2 in which are really nice, a touch more warmth and a smoothness that is endearing. And I've been rolling input tubes in the ZROCK2 and just can't unseat the Amperex pinched waist 7062 in there--any tube sounds good but these just have such a wide open sound and a transparency coupled with dynamic contrast that no other seems to approach. So I'm going to give up trying for a while.

I just keep marveling in this sound. My downstairs audio/visual system sounds really good as well, in large part because the large room gives me great sound and as my sources there aren't up to the same snuff as those in the main system, a ZBIT, ZROCK2 and CSP3 going into a DALAUDI DL2886 amp is a great set up for the (mostly video entertainment and news) material played through that system. In that system the ZROCK2 and the CSP3 have the 25th Anniversary mods. . .and so I get the 25th Anniversary Modified Experience.

I'm blessed with such great sound . . . and one day. . . the Sarah will be here to enrich my situation further.

The comparison I been waiting for! I will not dare make any assumptions on your experience with aged cryo tubes Lon. Just, will put the purchase toward the bottom of potential upgrades. Thanks!

That's cool. I've tried EL84, EL83 with adaptors, both in different brands, and many different Russian SV83 etc. and I find that I can tune my system best to the tubes I buy from Steve, and there is a slight sound quality boost using the Wathen tubes. Makes me not inclined to try another tube type. (I happen to like that Steve's output tubes utilize the Hazen Grid Mod too.) Now I get about a year out of my power tubes, whichever the type, in my Monoblocks and Taboo, and if I can get three to four times the longevity as Wathen tubes claim then it's a wash monetarily and I get a bit of a sonic boost too. We'll see. I may be using 300B tubes in the main system before the Wathen wear out, ideally.

One recent development. . . a pair of EL83 tubes in converter bases is seducing me. I got in a pair of Philips made in Holland and they are the best of the three pairs I've tried (other two are Mullard and Adzam). I do miss an inner detail smidgeon that I think is the result of the loss of the Hazen Grid Mod playback, but there's that touch of lushness I keep seeking right there with only about ten hours on the tubes.

That gave me the opportunity to once again compare the tubes I last bought from Steve with the Cryotone version, this time in my Taboo Mk IV using my ZMF Ori headphones. There is a sonic difference, there's a touch of detail to the Cryotone that also means a bit more treble. A twist of the ZROCK2 can make the two pair sound almost identical.  . . . The real proof of the Cryotone worth will be longevity, something that "time will tell."

Well, I find that all tubes in a complement matter--I have some rectifiers that the stock tube is just right, as the rectifier is a tiny bit slower perhaps or richer sounding, and then some when there is, I wouldn't say "harsh" but "brighter," perhaps an "edge" to the sound of the stock output tubes because of that rectifier.

Now I have had a very ambivalent experience with the Cryotone tubes. Don even seemed miffed at me because I called the 6SN7-WC tube "bright" which he also accused me of calling "harsh" though I didn't. Some here, most who have tried them, think these Cryotone tubes are the cat's meow, whereas with the 6SN7-WC I felt I was hearing the emperor's clothes rustle more than anything. I persisted with the tube and I found a complement that they were pretty good in but after living with that complement for weeks I started rolling input tubes again and found others I preferred. C'est la vie, that's what tube listening is all about.

With my comparison of the tubes from Steve and the same output tubes given the Cryotone treatment from Wathen I found a slight increase in detail from the Cryotone, and a bit of an "edge." So perhaps the treatment is adding an element of harshness to a tube that can tend to be that way untreated? I don't know. Because I can change textures and sound character in a number of ways in my system (modes and settings on my regenerator, gain settings on source, preamp, ZBIT, monoblocks) and because I have the amazing ZROCK2 Steve's and Cryotone's can be made to sound almost identical. So the longevity will prove whether they are worth the three times plus price increase.

I saw that comment too, and because of his previous pronouncement about my experience with the 6SN7 types. .. I raised an eyebrow. It came back down though. We all experience things differently and that's why I find really the only way to tell how a tube will sound in your system is to try it out and give them ears.

But ulimately I wouldn't personally characterize those two tubes Steve used for so long as stock in his amps as "harsh." And I'm not inclined to try that rectifier or other Cryotone tubes right now.

Yes, Brent Jesse's site can be quite helpful. I pretty much knew about the relevant 6922 types and usable rectifiers before I found his page, but his page has been very helpful for me with 12AU7 type variants.

I'm using a 12AU7 variant with converter bases in my ZTPRE, the 6085 tube, Amperex Holland. I've tried many sextets of tubes in the ZTPRE but these just won't come out. They give a perfect sound for my system imo. Of course the ZTPRE doesn't have a tube rectifier or two to roll, so that is a "fixed" sound to anchor around. I love this preamp and love it most with the 6085s.

I like big input tubes and I cannot lie.

I get almost all my tubes and adaptor/converter bases from eBay. I look for US vendors if I can and I have had literally ZERO issues in the last few decades. There are quite a few vendors for 12AU7 to 6922 tubes, and 6085 can be found. The caveat though is that they are expensive. I mean. . .they cost about as much as CRYOTONE tubes! I really like them--they give a bit more gain and there's a huge wide open mid-range when I use them in the ZTPRE. Every other tube type I try I just miss the 6085, can't take them out. I have the same situation with the 7062 in the ZROCK2.

Yes, sometimes you do have to.  :) I have some Tesla ones as well. . . you'll find them "light and airy" in comparison to the Amperex from Holland. Interesting tubes none-the-less.

I've had periods like that in the past. I'm lucky to have three systems sorted out and I'm really just playing around with tubes and other minor things. It was hard enough, especially in this 104 year old expanded cottage and a minimalist wife.

Man, oh man…..I see I have quite a journey ahead of me, considering the first tubes I’ll own will come with my. MKV.

I guess I should look at it as a long term project.

CA James, I just this week got in CV2382 tubes and converter bases, and it's interesting that they are designed for video use the way that the SV83 and 6P15 are.

I only have a few hours on them and they haven't seduced me yet, I think I'll next need to try them with different rectifiers. But well made handsome tubes. I'll see how they are with a lot more hours on them.

I have fifteen or so hours on them now and have rolled in a different pair of rectifiers (Sylvania 5U4G) and a different tube in the ZROCK2 (Amperex 5814A) and there's a nice interesting sound produced. Very similar, subtly different, than the Cryotone 6P15 I have been using.

I'm using Sylvania 0B3 (coke bottle) as the voltage regulator. After cycling about five this last few weeks I'm sticking with this one.

I'm finding these new output tubes dynamic, very dynamic if I use it with tubes that give me a less favorable tonal balance, but I needed to tame that. I find the Cryotone 6P15 and the 6P15 from Steve to be similarly dynamic and detailed.

I have 5R4 and 5RAR4 that I have been rotating lately of varying types but these Sylvania 5U4G are giving me the tonal balance I like. I had been using RCA 5R4 fight before the Sylvania, the Sylvania put it all into perspective.

I think the tubes will change a bit more in the next 20 hours or so. I think I do miss a bit the effect of the Hazen Grid Mod though.

Today I fired up for the first time my fully Anniversary modded SE84C+ that I just got back from Decware.  Before I sent it in, it had a issue with the left channel playing no music.  It was purchased used from a forum member and I only had a chance to listen to it briefly before it went in for an overhaul.  The stock tubes were about a year old.  

The audio chain is streaming Qobuz from a Google Chromecast audio into my Schitt Bifrost True Multibit DAC, through MAC Ultra Silver+ cables, into my ZSTAGE via Decware DAG cables, and into the Zen amp with a pair of MAC QUAD Silver cables.  The Zen amp is powered by a custom power cable built by forum member Will and fed into my PSAudio Soloist outlet on a home run circuit.  Running them on my ERR speakers with the DH labs Silver Sonic T-14 speaker wires.  

So what are my first impressions… The short answer is I’m speechless.  The upgrades totaled close to $800 which included a new tube set and warranty transfer….it was more than well worth the cost.

Out of the box it’s very different from when I sent it in. So what do I hear…. The bass is full and tight on most tracks.  The highs are crisp with a little bit of a dry and clinical presentation….but not in a bad way.  The mids can be a bit recessed at times, but that’s due to my speakers, which tend to be the culprit.  Hopefully my new Miflex caps I bought will help with that once I get a chance to wire them into the ERR’s.  

The surprise….the backgrounds are black as the ace of spades.  It’s quiet with nice decay and all of the detail coming through.  From what the guys here have said…that’s the Anniversary mods shining through.  I would have never thought this little Zen amp would power my ERR’s sufficiently for my every day listening levels in my new space, but it does so with headroom in reserve.  Late night listening sessions…no problem.   I’m gonna keep this one short for now and see what tomorrow brings.  I’ll repost this in the UFO section  

Dom

Hey Lon,

Purchased a quad set of Wathen 6SN7. Did run them in the Torii first for a day. In the Torri I would agree with the tart sound. Thought about using a 0B3 with them. My goal was to use them with my preamp. Was using RCA side getter 6SN7 GTAs in the preamp for the non holographic gain structure. In my preamp they are super quiet, smooth and have great instrument separation. They add a lot a presence in the sound.

Your description of them along with speaking to Don lead to the most satisfying tube purchase. Fun going after a tube for a specific purpose and then have them perform way beyond expectations.

Quote:


That's fantastic Lon. Nice summary of the your experience. Having trouble finding Westhinghouse 0B3. Any thoughts would be appreciated.

Have a great day,

Joseph

CA, after a lot of hours in the Taboo I put the CV2382/EL822 back in the Monoblocks. . . and they lasted an hour before I pulled them out.

They just are 'hazier' and a bit smoother than the Wathen 6P15P or those same from Steve. I just don't get "all the sound" I do from those. I think it's the lack of the Hazen Grid Mod, after living more than a dozen years with output tubes that take advantage of that I find it hard to be without. I enjoyed output tubes in the Torii that didn't enjoy the mod, but I just miss the differences too much in the Zen amps.

I have a pair of 6CH6 on the way to me as that is the tube that the bases are set to convert to 6922, and I don't think it's exactly the same as these. That will be my last experiment with power tubes for these amps--I'll stick with the 6P15P type unless by some fortunate alignment of the stars the 6CH6 proves to be a better tube.

Well I did leave things alone for just over a week! That might be a record.

I still just had a tonal tightness that bothered me, that I kept trying to correct with input tubes in the ZROCK2. But. . .I decided to try moving some 7308 around so I put the French in the Monoblocks and the Dutch in the ZTPRE and that was an improvement.Then I moved away from the standard 12AU7 type in the ZROCK2 and popped in one of my oldest compatible tubes, a late fifties 6085 with a D getter and pinched waist, which I believe is the earliest of that tube type. That has proven to be the missing ingredient. Everything is quite nice. . .even very crankable . . . right now.

Now to leave it alone for months til the 300B is on hand. Yeah, right. I can . . .try.