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The 25th Anniversary Modified Experience (Read 27297 times)
Lon
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The 25th Anniversary Modified Experience
07/30/18 at 15:49:10
 
I thought I would start a general discussion thread about the sound and "feel" of a system that now has 25th Anniversary components installed, whether the SE84UFO-25, the SE84UFO3-25 Monoblocks, the CSP3-25, or soon to be experienced ZMA-25 amps. Or combinations of the amps and the preamp. As the SE84UFO25 ship and with some of those and Monoblocks and preamps already out in the field there's already quite a bit to discuss.

I have the SE84UFO3-25 amplifiers in my system and then added the CSP3-25 to the system. The amplifiers transformed the sound of my system bringing me the speed and dynamics I loved when using the Taboo Mk IV as a speaker amp in my system but also featured the body and richness that the Torii Mk III imparted to the sound when it was my amplifier of choice. And on top of that is mixed in the wonderful "wholesome" sound that the single-ended topology brings to the plate. In the context of my audio journey this could almost be called a "miracle amp" as it brings together all the characteristics I've wanted and enjoyed in amplifiers into one pair of amps. Where before three amplifiers would encompass all these qualities but not one, now there is a pair that give me all that I wanted before.

On top of that I now get from the "small" SV83 tube type all the qualities that I admire in that tube type AND all the other qualities I sought in the EL34/KT66/6V6/6CA7 etc. type. I thought I would miss and yearn for aspects of the bigger tubes. . . but I don't. I just don't. Which surprised me at first, but with the passage of a few months. . . I still just don't.

When the CSP3-25 was added to the system I got more of the same "goodies" of tone and dynamics and even though I have a fantastic preamp in the ZTPRE still in the system, the CSP3-25 brings me a further layer of gain control that allows me to get all I need power-wise from the system for my speakers, giving me just a bit more headroom ensuring I don't run into distortion in the normal range of my audio and video usage. I had considered a pair of higher efficiency speakers but with the omni-directional/directional magic of the HR-1s I realize I don't need new speakers now, which is a relief as I love these speakers. (And as a cherry on top the headphone playback of the CSP3-25 rivals that of the Taboo Mk IV while also using the ZROCK2, and only missing the "Lucid" mode that I do enjoy playing with, but can now do so in a second system with the Taboo Mk IV as the amplifier).

I'm now enjoying the best sound I've ever had, and I can "skin the cat" many ways with different rectifier, regulation, input, driver and output tube combinations, like combining different ingredients to make a distinctive curry. Yes, I spent money this year that I possibly shouldn't have, but I am so glad I did, the enjoyment received is worth it now and will pay further dividends over the years to come.

On top of that my understanding of audio is growing as a by-product of Steve's search and discovery of audio playback. In adjusting and tube-rolling, mode-selecting and cabling and isolation changes and listening I begin to learn more and more about the system and the means to reap the benefits from it. I'm more engaged with the material I play than ever before as a consequence.

I know I for one would love to hear the impressions and experiences and thoughts about the 25th Anniversary experience from others. . . so share 'em if you got 'em. Wink
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ScottNC
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Re: The 25th Anniversary Modified Experience
Reply #1 - 07/30/18 at 17:21:20
 
Lon,
As always, very nicely written and well articulated. I really pull a great deal from the amazingly descriptive posts. Helps me better focus my on my system and where I want to go with it. In short,  THANKS for posting.
Best,
Scott
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Lon
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Re: The 25th Anniversary Modified Experience
Reply #2 - 07/30/18 at 17:36:46
 
Thanks Scott.
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Stefan
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Re: The 25th Anniversary Modified Experience
Reply #3 - 07/31/18 at 06:21:19
 
Thanks Lon, very nice writeup!

For me the ufo25 changed my view of what 2 Watts really are. Before I thought I could never live with less than 15-25 W, which is why I bought the Torii 3 years ago. Given how much sweat and love went into the ufo25 I thought I need to get one and give it a try, half expecting I'll may send it back. I wanted to get some better speakers than the ERRx so I got some 91db Tannoy Cheviot. What the ufo25 does with these is amazing, very beautiful, open, dynamic, no sign of being harsh in the highs or boomy in the lows (the ERRx had that problem in my room with the Torii), but still lots of base and highs. And it can play up to concert level volume! I would have never thought this little amp can do that with those large speakers. Now I'm starting to think that there is little need for more than the ufo25 if you don't already have absolute high end speakers that are power hungry. My 2cts: rather get new speakers and the UFO25.
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Lon
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Re: The 25th Anniversary Modified Experience
Reply #4 - 07/31/18 at 06:55:03
 
Thanks for sharing Stefan. Yes, the perception of power (and usable power) of this amplifier design has to be experienced to be believed! Power, and with a coherence top to bottom that I haven't heard before to this extent as well. As well as heirloom quality build. Phenomenal amplifiers and preamplifiers.
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JOMAN
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Re: The 25th Anniversary Modified Experience
Reply #5 - 07/31/18 at 13:29:08
 
This my third week with the UFO25 and I can say with certainty that for the first time in many years with many systems I am experiencing a coherent and full presentation that 45Hz - 20KHz allows, which is the stated range of my speakers.  No drop outs, it’s all there.  The bass at 45 HZ is the type one would expect to get from a higher power ss amp with the resolution that puts a smile on ones face.

This is about the the dynamic ebb and flow of music, the dynamic slam of music, and the emotional finess of music and voices.  The reaction of the few friends that have heard the system to date is always the same... they abruptly stop talking when the music starts and remain transfixed even when it ends.

So what’s next???  When released the CSP3-25 and now that the frequency range of 45HZ-20KHZ has been ‘nailed’ I’m ready to start working with a non powered sub woofer system to extend the range down to 20HZ.  No I will not be getting rid of the S3HOXRS, they’re too fast, I doubt I could get what they do in any other speaker.  I’m not saying that the’re the best for everyone simply the best fit for me.  There’s a sneaky startle factor to them that prevents one from getting bored.  Now if I can get the lower octave that is as fast, I’m there.

This is not about not having enough, it’s about wanting it all.

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Lon
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Re: The 25th Anniversary Modified Experience
Reply #6 - 07/31/18 at 14:21:24
 
John, that's a very interesting and precise synopsis of the SE84UFO-25 in your system. I too have had friends and family listen and watch with my system and I didn't ask for feedback, but they were totally involved with the music or show they were hearing or watching and hearing and that told me a lot about the seductive nature of the "very correct" sound. With the ZROCK2 I can dial in the frequency balance and forget about the hardware and just listen . . . . That's perhaps the biggest "invisible" benefit of the amps.

I haven't felt the need for a subwoofer in my system. (The HR-1 are rated down to 32 so that may be why) . . . But I do understand the desire to "have it all!"
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Lonely Raven
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Re: The 25th Anniversary Modified Experience
Reply #7 - 07/31/18 at 15:34:29
 

I love the descriptions, and agree with them. The amp is somehow more engaging due to its accuracy. It reminds me of when I was bringing my foam diffusers "on tour" to other peoples listening rooms - you'd simply see everyone getting more lost in the music, goose bumps, even more emotional. And somehow the 25th does this all by itself.

I tried giving my ZMA some airtime for a couple weeks while experimenting with different tubes, and I'm already back to my pre-prototype modded Zen. And you guys with the real 25th amps have it even better!  

I do hope Steve is able to give the ZMA some of this love, because I'm missing the horsepower of the bigger amp, but really enjoy the involving nature of the Zen.
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lazb
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Re: The 25th Anniversary Modified Experience
Reply #8 - 07/31/18 at 18:43:50
 
We each have our own unique problems and perceptions. It seems to me that, other than not being able to address the acoustics in my listening space, the SE84UFO25, with the ZROCK2 and the DNA2 speakers ALL of my previous issues with a multitude of years, iterations and dollars spent on HI-FI(music) systems have been solved in a beautiful and most enjoyable way! Simple praises to the Master seem quite inadequate.
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Lon
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Re: The 25th Anniversary Modified Experience
Reply #9 - 07/31/18 at 19:00:17
 
Thanks for weighing in Joe, original prototype owner par excellence! I know that the amp in our untreated home can't really match the magic of a treated room, but it can still be the best we've had.

My amp and preamp have gone through improvements since I first plugged them in, seasoning is a wonderful thing, and learning to situate and treat them right is a fun process. . . . .
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Re: The 25th Anniversary Modified Experience
Reply #10 - 08/01/18 at 04:06:44
 
Quote:
I’m ready to start working with a non powered sub woofer system to extend the range down to 20HZ.


Let us know what you find. I wish Decware and company offered a definitive solution to this problem short of the Imperials. Maybe I am not connecting the dots.
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busterfree
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Re: The 25th Anniversary Modified Experience
Reply #11 - 08/01/18 at 04:10:22
 
I feel like the CSP3-25 has helped bass in my TV/DVD system, and I am using a $20 DAC from Amazon. I have a powered Klipsch sub, but I would like to try a passive stereo sub solution at some point.
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Lon
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Re: The 25th Anniversary Modified Experience
Reply #12 - 08/01/18 at 10:42:41
 
Juan -- a 20 dollar DAC? The CSP3-25 really does improve sources!
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busterfree
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Re: The 25th Anniversary Modified Experience
Reply #13 - 08/01/18 at 13:48:24
 
It is an $11 DAC (Musou 43223-535). It does really well.

With the CSP3-25, I was able to turn the sub level down more than before, and I think it blends and supplements the overall presentation better.  I get no listener fatigue. The CSP3-25 is feeding an SE84UFO2.

The 25th Anniversary upgrade for the CSP3 is definitely a worthwhile investment.
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Re: The 25th Anniversary Modified Experience
Reply #14 - 08/01/18 at 14:13:39
 
I’ve talked to Steve and Louis.  Louis feels that for the sub to be as fast as the S3HOXRS it needs to be powered, at least with the drivers that he works with.  

I do not want to introduce a powered sub. If a powered sub is the only solution at this time, I will leave things as they are because I am not wanting for any more bass head room.  Interestingly, I have had a number of speakers that were 45HZ+.  Yet none of the previous systems were able to give the bass density, headroom and articulation that I am getting now and that’s from this d**n 4” drivers!!  What I want to try to achieve is to be able to get the base extension that allows one to hear the low organ notes or the full range of a piano.  In fact that is what started this.  I was listening to Cyrus Plays Elvis and I was able to hear some of that lower extension of the piano that prior to the UF025  I could not, at least not in the dynamic manner that it was now evident.  My wife said “I never heard THAT before”. This is the type of bass extension that sort of “rolls out” and fills the space of the venue and is present in my space.  

So, I’ve been spoiled by the UFO25.  When is enough, enough when more could be so much ‘sweater’ now that I know what is achievable?  It’s not that I want to enhance what is now there in any way, in fact I don’t want to spoil it.  The UFO25 is like a drug, addictive, but not hazordous to your health, just your pocket book depending on how far you want to take it.  ;)

This is going to take some time.
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Re: The 25th Anniversary Modified Experience
Reply #15 - 08/02/18 at 02:43:04
 
Joman,  I have had good luck matching up my Omega Super Alnico monitors with The Omega 8 inch sub.  It doesn't go super low but it blends seamlessly and provides an excellent foundation and soundstage.    It may be worth talking to Louis to see what he says.
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JOMAN
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Re: The 25th Anniversary Modified Experience
Reply #16 - 08/02/18 at 11:42:35
 
Thanks Ellsworth, I have spoken with Louis.  He’s about to release a 10” sub also.  All of Louis’s subs are powered.  I do think that the Omega subs would integrate but I’m not so sure that I would end up with what I want which is low octave extension only.  Very few instruments go below 40HZ, Organ, Piano and Harp are three that come to mind.

Steve’s post regarding his hooking up the UFO25 to the Imperials and the results that he achieved is what got me intrigued and started on this path.  The Imperials won’t fit in my space so I am trying to find a suitable alternative.

Mating to the S3HOXRS makes this even harder as they are so fast and at 45HZ, with the UFO25 and the ZR2 are entering the “realm” of low octiave experience, just enough to tease (you have no idea how many times these speakers have P*&sed me off with the teasing  >:().  The S3HOXRS with the Zen, especially with the UFO25 and ZR2 are an enigma.  There is no way that this combination should be able to do what it is doing if one was to approach this with ‘conventional’ thinking.  But they are!  

So this is going to take some time just for me to make sure that I don’t mess up what I have.  Appreciate the input.
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Re: The 25th Anniversary Modified Experience
Reply #17 - 08/04/18 at 01:41:19
 
Another update:
I started with the same tube set that I used in my UFO2:
Signal Tube Seimens E88CC, Power Tubes Svetlana NOS SV83 Winged C and the Sophia 274B Aqua.  

This gave me a point of reference.  In a conversation with Steve, he was interested in knowing if they would remain the same in the UFO25.   Well they’ve changed:

Signal Tube: Valvo PCC88 (Hamburg mfg.), Power Tubes 6P15P-EV Red Tip.  The Sophia 274B Aqua remains.  One other change was in my CSP-3.  The Signal Tube was a Valvo PCC88 but now is a 6N1P Red Tip.  

The purpose of this was not to improve anything or to roll for the purpose of finding a “better” set than is provided stock.  It was simply to have a point of reference in order to determine just what the difference would be between the UFO2 and UFO25.

There is a difference for sure!  However to compare the two would be to completely miss the point.  The point being is that the UFO2 is still a great amp and probably all that many will need in order to be satisfied.  The UFO25 is in a different league, so if your going to compare it to another amp, compare it to amps that are in the same league - Reference Grade, if you dare!

As for me, I have absolutely no desire to do so!
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Lon
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Re: The 25th Anniversary Modified Experience
Reply #18 - 08/04/18 at 02:07:22
 
It's great that you've done some tube-rolling and found a new set to enjoy. I still prefer the SV83 and have built around that, though I know I could work with the stock red-tipped and build an interesting set around those as well. But I have about 20 pair of the SV83 so I might as well use those up first!

And I've settled on Amperex as the tube brand and 7308s in the two 25th Anniversary components and 6DJ8s in the ZTPRE and a 12AU7 in the ZROCK2. The family sound is a "real" thing and with the treble cut circuit in the Monoblocks and the ZROCK2 and all the gain riding possibilities in the system I'm getting sound that I just want to keep and "forget about" changing as I revel in the wonderful fields of sound this system lets me hike into. Really really happy with the "25th Anniversary" experience.
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JOMAN
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Re: The 25th Anniversary Modified Experience
Reply #19 - 08/04/18 at 12:48:24
 
Yes, I would certainly agree with a significant part of the UFO25 being the “real thing”.  And I too am finding it harder to roll once you combine the “real thing” with the connection that I get at the “emotional level”.  

I seem to have an attraction to a system that is hyper detailed but not strident or hard and that I find is not so easy to achieve.  In my CSP3 I have the 6N11 for the output and in my ZR2 the Seimens ECC82 nickel or silver plate.  The S3HOXRS dig out the minutest of details that this combo puts out.  Also the energy that the system now throws into the room is so palpable.  

I think that the UFO25 is able to “control” and “harmonize” all of this and that is why I am able to increase the detail along with the energy to the level that the system now puts out.  I don’t think my UFO2 could “manage” all of those factors as well and so the NOS Svetlana SV83 would still be my choice in it.

What I am getting now is a layering in space that seems to transport one to the venue in way that is very hard to put into words.  I sit in the sofa hit play and I’m in a different place.  The vocals can be downright scary in that they immediately connect with the core or inside of a person and grab hold in a way that is totally disarming and immersive.

This may sound over the top and even I will reflect and question whether I am going over the top in trying to describe the experience in my space.  Then the next day I turn the system on, hit play, and damn it, there it is again only better and I still end up second guessing myself until the next day wondering if it will all happen again.  I hope that eventually this second guessing will come to an end, although it is rather “interesting”.
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Lon
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Re: The 25th Anniversary Modified Experience
Reply #20 - 08/04/18 at 13:25:36
 
Detail is an aspect that I can struggle with not necessarily with my system but with the material I listen to. I have tens of thousands of discs now and I don't buy them for audio quality but for the music. Many sound fantastic. Some sound pretty mediocre. If I build my system around mining the most detail, the latter sound pretty bad, worse than they can if I don't highlight all the detail possible. I also don't and can't have a "treated room" and so other adjustments become my focus. The SV83 is the output tube that works best, there's a touch of forgiving warmth there that the military version doesn't have, and the extra smidgeon of clarity in the military version can be just a bit too much. The 6N11 tube type is too much for me, and I can build a system around the 6N5P type or the Amperex 7308 and similar type. The Amperex have perhaps the best "signature" for my needs allowing the mediocre recordings to be more of what they can be, and still deliver the best possible balance of detail and frequency character. But again everything is a balancing act, with speaker choices, cabling choices, isolation treatments and power treatment all influencing factors.

These 25th Anniversary components will let you hear and feel all that goes before them, in a way that I have never experienced with another amp. You mention the emotional impact--I can see my twenty year plus journey with Decware as an increase in this emotional content as I explored the line over the years. I got into audio seriously as a response to ceasing playing music with others, and wanted to connect with the emotional response I had found while playing music with others. Step by step I'm getting there and I jumped to higher steps with these new components. Rather than detail I find these components greatest revelation to be an empowering cohesiveness that just adds solidity and "correctness" to the sound, the full realization of the "single-ended" sonic nature.

I think that the more that can experience this the better, and I predict that these will strengthen Decware's economic standing. At least that's my hope, and why I have always been a vocal supporter of Decware on the web.
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Re: The 25th Anniversary Modified Experience
Reply #21 - 08/04/18 at 13:42:50
 
I would agree in all respects.  One other factor that I can’t seem to change or wan’t to is me.  I’ve been accused of being a perfectionist.  Some actually view it as a flaw.  Can you believe that???  Well it’s not my fault they are not perfect! Cool
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Lon
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Re: The 25th Anniversary Modified Experience
Reply #22 - 08/04/18 at 13:50:33
 
Hey, when I saw how my grandfather's obsession with perfection made him a very unhappy man throughout most of his life (and a mean control freak) I backed away from those qualities in myself, and allowed a bit of chaos to loosen my own grip. But if you are not unhappy the quest for perfection sure can have great results! For a certain portion of my working life I was part of a team that really tried to implement "Total Quality Management." That's an interesting business process and I think in some ways I've been implementing that in my audio pursuits.

The curse of these Decware components we all have in common is that we can hear so much! The good. . . with the bad. And we get drawn into the process of constant evaluation and improvement. . . and it's an ongoing and enveloping process. I keep trying to rest on my laurels. . . and enjoy what I have. These 25th Anniversary products are in some ways making this easier as they sound so damned GREAT!
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HR-1,ZTPRE,ZBIT,ZROCK2,SEWE300B,CSP3-25mod,Taboo MkIV;Rega RP3 all GrooveTracer mods;PSAudio:PST+DSD,P15,NPC,PowerBases,AC-12 pwr cbls,Reference spkrcbls;Mapleshade SamsonV3;VooDoo:Cremona+Amati interconnects, IsoPods; headphones:Sennheiser HD800S,ZMF Ori,Oppo PM1
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Re: The 25th Anniversary Modified Experience
Reply #23 - 08/04/18 at 14:20:52
 
Lon, that’s the key to “perfectionism”.  Don’t micro manage and try to control others.  I learned a long time ago that control is an illusion.  I’m in the field of “management” often of turn around situations.  In all cases people are the key.  My role is to find the strengths in others, respect them and get them involved in creating an environment in which they can achieve their best.  I try to empower by facilitating and supporting.  Hope for the best and never give up.    

I use the same approach in pretty much everything I do, including this hobby.  Yes, the 25 Anniversary products do make this easier.
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Re: The 25th Anniversary Modified Experience
Reply #24 - 08/04/18 at 15:44:30
 
There is no such thing as perfection!
I work in the "perfection" business. As much as we try to make things perfect, it seems that the only thing that ever happens is that we come up with a better method of measuring our output. They seem to always keep adding more zeros after the decimal point.
After a while you make the realization that all you have to do is make your product or process "good enough".
In this hobby we try to make our copies of performances sound as if they were live, but we haven't yet achieved this level. What we have at this point is something that sounds good enough, but not close to the real thing.
If you were walking down the street and heard a song playing on a piano from inside of a house vs. the very same thing being played from a very good stereo I'm pretty sure that you would immediately know which one was the real thing.
But it sure is fun chasing the dragon isn't it?
 
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Re: The 25th Anniversary Modified Experience
Reply #25 - 08/04/18 at 15:51:49
 
John, that's wise. I had less restraint when I was in the throes of perfectionism, and that was probably why I never became what I most wanted to become, a writer--I could never stop editing and pruning etc. Abandoning all pretense of perfection made me much happier. People fascinate me and I relied on them as well;I was never happier in work than when I was the assistant to the Director and office manager of the human resources office. People matter more than anything.

Donnie, yes, though in my case in civil service (state level) "good enough for government work" was for the most part the benchmark, and that was not "good enough" for me. I went against the grain, but don't regret it.
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Re: The 25th Anniversary Modified Experience
Reply #26 - 08/04/18 at 16:49:04
 
What is perfection?

Some think in the terms of absolute perfection and not relative or perfection within boundaries.  If you are God then perfection is in terms of absolute.  If you are human then it’s in terms of relative or within boundaries.  The things that we can change not the things that we can’t.

Extreme’s are not good.  One extreme leads to constant disatisfaction the other extreme leads to the acceptance of the lowest common denominator and limits our own potential.  Balance is needed.  Accepting limits is necessary.  

In the case corporations perfection often means perfect greed measured by 0’s at the end of a figure. I worked in that environment and had to leave because the measure became the goal often to their own detriment.  I could not grow personally in that environment.

A table is not perfect I the absolute sense, but it is perfect for what it is designed to do.  So how does all the above apply with respect to what I am trying to achieve with my system or is it all simply academic theory?

Take the piano as reproduced by my system.  Is it perfect - NO.  Can I work to achieve a result that is indistinguishable from the real thing - NO.  But what I am getting now has enough of the key elements that give the illusion of the real thing except for the lower octave.  I know that pursuing the lower octave within limits is achievable.  It’ll take effort and it will not be easy but if achieved even if not perfect in the absolute sense, wow what an end result that would be.  For some what I have is more than good enough and actually it is for me.  But what if???  Those are the words that cause me to try to achieve the next possibility.  If I do not succeed no big deal.  At least I tried and learned.  I do not look at the end result or the figures as success or failure.  To me it’s the journey that counts.
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Re: The 25th Anniversary Modified Experience
Reply #27 - 08/04/18 at 17:01:16
 
I definitely understand your position and wish you the best of luck in your quest!
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Re: The 25th Anniversary Modified Experience
Reply #28 - 08/10/18 at 18:20:12
 
The Monoblocks and the CSP3-25 have to be fully broken in and on the long sweet process of "seasoning" now. I'm enjoying sound that I just have never had before and I feel so fortunate to have this wonderful combination of components to relax into by listening. . . .

I've made one significant change this week: I replaced the Sophia Electric Aqua 274B in the CSP3-25 with an Arcturus globe Type 80 rectifier. (The Sophia Electric Aqua 274Bs in the Monoblocks remain in place). The Arcturus is imparting a further dab of richness to the sound. The Sophia Electric is a wonderful sound too, but for Redbook (the majority of my listening) there's just a bit more of an ease to the sound with the Arcturus. This is the only globe Type 80 that I have but I'll soon have at least one other to play with, so we'll see what a different brand brings to the plate.

Tube-rolling is  . . . welcomed by these components as they show the innate nature of a tube and most sound great. It's hard to choose and "stay put" with a complement, but it's also fun to get a new window into the musical view by rolling.

Edit to add: I also changed out a '44 pair of RCA OD3 regulation tubes for a pair of '40 RCA OD3. Subtle shift but so far a positive one sonically, and this pair is the closest matched as far as light and color when powered on of any pair of regulation tubes I've had in the Monoblocks. I know that doesn't mean anything much but it's a nice visual touch.

More SE84UFO25s should be hitting their owners soon (and I bet their arrival and implementation into systems will feel like a real hit!) Please share impressions if you have them!
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Re: The 25th Anniversary Modified Experience
Reply #29 - 08/15/18 at 01:06:29
 
Gosh, these amps let you hear everything. I was enjoying the Arcturus Type 80 globe rectifier in the CSP3-25 so much that I decided to go back to the Sophia Electric Aqua 274B rectifier in that component for a quick comparison. Of course every thing sounds great with a huge sound field, but there was a focus and yet ease to the sound with the Arcturus that is not present with the Aqua. So the Arcturus is back in and will stay until the two other Type 80 globe rectifiers I bought arrive, probably later this week and early next week (a Cunningham and an RCA, both of which look very similar and who knows may be close enough matched to try in the Monoblocks).

These 25th Anniversary components just have me swimming in music. I'm going through my shelves and just reaching for discs thinking "wonder how this will sound." I already know the answer: as good as they can sound!
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Re: The 25th Anniversary Modified Experience
Reply #30 - 08/24/18 at 15:51:29
 
After a week of tube-rolling. . . I'm back where I started: Amperex input tubes in both amps and preamps, Western Electric bottle-shaped OD3s, and Sophia Electric Aqua 274B rectifiers. I did receive a pair of Cunningham Type 80 Globe rectifiers and ran them a few days in the SE84UFO3-25 Monoblocks. I like them, a lot, but although they had a smooth warmth I missed the tight dynamics and clarity of the Sophia Electrics. A Sophia Electric was interchanged with an RCA Type 80 globe as the CSP3-25 preamp and that was nice with either pair of rectifiers in the amp but again the Sophia Electric was the best choice, all three rectifiers in place just gave the sound an energy and presence that I have decided works best for me. That surprised me because I thought I would prefer the Type 80 sound. . .and as much as I like it with some material I don't prefer it overall. The Type 80 globes all sound nice in my second system though, so there's that, and I can always put them in the main system as a "different" sound or for well-recorded classical music where they eo have a great synergy.

Every day I spend as much time as I can with the system. . . whether driving speakers or headphones this is a wonderful system, giving me sound quality I only dreamed of having a few decades ago!
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Re: The 25th Anniversary Modified Experience
Reply #31 - 08/24/18 at 19:48:36
 
I've already made a change, as a pair of OD3W tubes made by Raytheon arrived that I ordered last weekend. Interesting tube and a meaty sound so far, which I suspected as they are not "bottle-shaped" and are very rugged as you can see.

It's amazing in these amps what a single tube change can do. And in any of the tube positions.
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Re: The 25th Anniversary Modified Experience
Reply #32 - 08/29/18 at 21:55:31
 
Wow! These OD3W tubes are really nice, they impart a slightly warm smoothness that other OD3 I have don't and that I didn't miss til there it is. They fit the other tubes in my complement so well!

This pair works so well that today I found someone selling a full sleeve of five at about 8 dollars each and bought a sleeve. . . I want to be sure to have these for the years to come!

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Re: The 25th Anniversary Modified Experience
Reply #33 - 08/30/18 at 01:26:50
 
Nice tubes!  After I've burned in the UFO25 100 hours I'll probably roll a Mullard PCC189/7DJ8 in, as well as a Raytheon OD3a. Currently have Mullard OD3a and Lorenz 7DJ8 in there. Just finished 2 hour session before dinner and system is sounding in a word - "overwhelming" !!
Lon,  I know you are enjoying your system as well.
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Re: The 25th Anniversary Modified Experience
Reply #34 - 09/04/18 at 15:05:17
 
I really am enjoying the system Ace. I am listening to the amps today after a three day weekend with headphones (great headphone sound from the CSP3-25 and the Sennheiser HD-800S but still. . .) I did a bit of isolation component re-arranging (went from four VooDoo Cable Iso-Pods to three under all but my PS Audio P10) and used the resulting six Iso-Pods in place of Aurios under my DVR and UDP-205, and changed some Herbie's Audio Lab "Ultrasonic Fat Dots" to Herbie's 1/2" ebony domes to lift the front of my speakers up a bit. Another layer of clarity and dynamics as a result. I've been tuning around the Raytheon OD3W tubes I have been using lately, I really like the effect they have on the system. I have six pair now, five more on the way, and I'm mailing a pair to Juan as he turned me on to the OD3 tube and I think he will like these. . . .

The Decware 25th Anniversary Modified Experience. . . I'm glad I'm experiencing it!
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Re: The 25th Anniversary Modified Experience
Reply #35 - 09/07/18 at 00:21:35
 
Quote:
I'm mailing a pair to Juan as he turned me on to the OD3 tube and I think he will like these. . . .


Thanks Lon. I will put some hours on them in my SE84UFO3-25 this weekend.





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Re: The 25th Anniversary Modified Experience
Reply #36 - 09/07/18 at 01:06:52
 
Glad they got there. Hope you enjoy them.
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Re: The 25th Anniversary Modified Experience
Reply #37 - 09/08/18 at 13:08:06
 
I am. They just spent 12 hours running in my TV system. I am giving that system a break and listening to music on my other system. Thanks again.

Smiley
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Re: The 25th Anniversary Modified Experience
Reply #38 - 09/08/18 at 14:27:05
 
You're welcome. I generally prefer "bottle-shaped" regulator tubes and rectifier tubes. But these "potato-masher" regulator tubes have a special sound that works well with the other tubes in the complement and can be a good foundation for the amps in my system. I now have five pair of the same date codes, I think I'm good for a while! Mark58 seems to have influenced my hoarding. . .  ;)
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Re: The 25th Anniversary Modified Experience
Reply #39 - 09/20/18 at 14:15:37
 
The 25th Anniversary Monoblocks and the 25th Anniversary CSP3 both continue to amaze me and show me more and more of what is possible with stereo reproduction.

The ZROCK2 is a very important component in the system. I recently rolled in the Amperex 6085 and with this in the ZROCK2 there is a wide open feel and tonal balance and dynamic range seem seamlessly together in a way other tubes haven't presented yet. Even in a compromised room position the HR-1s disappear more than ever and the sound field is  welcoming and breathing.

During every session I'm reminded how everything I love in the Torii Mk III is still here in the stew and there's that cohesiveness that the single-ended Zen direct circuit brings. From the start the amps and now from its introduction the preamp demonstrate a new way to present detail: woven into the entire expanse, not distinct or highlighted. This helps bring you into the music, makes you feel like the microphone that is picking up the sound, puts "more there there."

I'm also glad that I realized that adding the 25th Anniversary "wonder" that the CSP3-25 offers to the Taboo Mk IV for headphone listening would improve that experience. I now feel that the Sennheiser HD800S are great directly with the CSP3-25 but the best sound overall is the Audeze LCD-2 or the Oppo PM-1 with the Taboo Mk IV driven by the CSP3-25. That combo just gives huge sound, frequencies towering and so low, and wide sound. I really look forward to headphone listening, not how I had approached it before.

I've done extensive tube-rolling, gain-riding and treble cut circuit and ZROCK2 adjusting and I think I'm THERE. I'm trying to not futz and change any further for a while. I have had two decades of happiness with Decware components in my system. However I have never been happier than I am now with my listening world.
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Re: The 25th Anniversary Modified Experience
Reply #40 - 12/17/18 at 14:35:16
 
Today I am listening to the system and just reveling in the wonderful sound. I ask myself how can this get better. . . and I know it can with the 25th Anniversary Mods of the ZROCK2 and possibly with the ZLC.

I really am eager to hear what the mods will bring to the ZROCK2 and know I have a long wait. I'll hear from others who have their ZROCK2s in for modification instead of having a new one built as I am. I think that will be the icing on the cake for the 25th Anniversary Modified Experience!

As my Monoblocks and CSP3-25 have seasoned and really come into their own I've learned how many amplifiers I have simply by "riding the gain" between the ZBIT, CSP3-25 and the Monoblocks. (I leave my DAC preamp at 100 percent). I can have a rich and dreamy classic tube amp sound signature so to speak, a fast and dynamic and open one, and a world of shades in between. Add tube rolling into this and you have a universe of different potential sounds with the same source and speakers. The 25th Anniversary Modified Experience is not for the faint of hearts! But rewards are truly satisfying.
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Re: The 25th Anniversary Modified Experience
Reply #41 - 12/17/18 at 15:08:13
 
Love this Thread. Keep the info/learning coming Lon.

I look forward to my ZBIT (couple more months). Then, ZLC (Mar/April).

I will never say never about getting another CSP3 (25th this time) and another run at a ZROCK2 (25th).



It will be 18 years come this May/2019 for me with Decware. No stranger to their great music making gear either:

"Keep calm and place an order." Cool

All purchased new...
SE84CS
TORII III
SuperZenCKC
Zen Styx
Zen Mystery Amplifier
CSP3 w/Jupiter Caps
ZDSD w/Steve's Output Transfomer Stage
DECWARE PAC-S
ZROCK2
EL34 Mono-blocks

DECWARE DM947 Monolith's (used)



ZMA 25th MODs done last month!

On the build sheet:

My ZBIT w/Dual Attenuation
DECWARE Power Conditioner.
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Re: The 25th Anniversary Modified Experience
Reply #42 - 12/19/18 at 15:42:23
 
stone_of_tone wrote on 12/17/18 at 15:08:13:
"Keep calm and place an order." Cool


Larry, this really should be the next Decware t-shirt, right? Smiley

Today I spent a few hours with fresh ears on my system and I went through two different rectifier types and one regulation tube type from my "everyday complement" and came back to what I am using every day.

But in the process I found four or five different "amplifiers" especially if you transition between A and B EQ curves in the ZROCK2. Other less flexible amplifiers only give you a limited choice in "signature." The 25th Anniversary Modified Experience is one of exploring these different worlds of sound with different tubes, wires, power settings, toggle switch settings, isolation and damping. . . .

There were times in my life when I wanted a system that was rock steady and had the right combination of sonic elements to let me just sit back and listen through my collection. There were times when I almost achieved that goal as well. But the deeper into the Decware world, and especially after you pass through the 25th Anniversary initiation and achieve enlightenment, you find you can and do have the best of choices: you can find and reach the plateau you wish, and yet you know there's a different terrain you could be exploring, and you can head off on another journey with tube-rolling, toggle switching. . . . One gets to have the routine the musical discipline demands, and yet are able to escape the complacency when the audio wanderlust hits you.

We Decware owners already bond with our components, 25th Anniversary Modified Experiencers may find obsession with the entire system just around the corner. I think these machines are perfect for those among us who are so deep into this "hobby"--they give us a solid foundation  to build our routine around, and yet they are always offering us tantalizing glimpses that tempt us and keep us from complacency.

(The above is written somewhat tongue in cheekily . . . .)

And there are three or four of you now who are ZMA 25th Anniversary Modified Experiencers now. Please weigh in with your experiences! Thanks!
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Re: The 25th Anniversary Modified Experience
Reply #43 - 12/19/18 at 16:42:30
 
Quote:
... There were times in my life when I wanted a system that was rock steady and had the right combination of sonic elements to let me just sit back and listen through my collection. ...


For me, the 25th Anniversary modifications are finally allowing me to do just this.   Smiley
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Re: The 25th Anniversary Modified Experience
Reply #44 - 12/19/18 at 16:48:26
 
Awesome! Me too, and then that complacency comes in, but I get to take another tour and often end up back where I was.

I'm facing a new journey ahead as well. I've somehow managed to get permission to move my main system upstairs to be an audio only system, and install a second system downstairs that will be more video-centric. I'd like the system downstairs to be ZTPRE and Torii Mk III centered, but the cabinet my wife insists on won't house them. So it's going to be CSP2+ and Taboo Mk IV centered. Lots of work and fun ahead.
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Re: The 25th Anniversary Modified Experience
Reply #45 - 12/19/18 at 17:06:43
 
Do you get any "bass thumping" from the upstairs system?  I remember growing, up my brother's stereo in his room just sounded like bass for those downstairs.  Obviously, he had no isolation under his speakers though.
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Re: The 25th Anniversary Modified Experience
Reply #46 - 12/19/18 at 17:07:52
 
Lon...That would make a cool T-Shirt! Smiley

Will do, about getting to my ZMA 25th experience/in some more time... .

For the ZMA, Jeff intrigued me this past February with his musing's of offering the ZMA a little more speed. With Steve's discoveries and applying to the ZMA, I'm very pleased/speed & micro serving the macro music! My ZMA is seasoning in nicely.... .

I always knew it was not my Adagio's. I had in Tekton's and owned the DM947 Monoliths (all at the same time/rotating and listening with two other pair as well, mind you). They too, could be; not what I knew from my SE84CS delivering the music. For Steve to achieve the ZMA doing (UFO-25th SE) CS with power...is pretty damn remarkable.

Back to my Speaker's/Acoustic Zen Adagio's. The Tekton's & DM947's could not even come close to what my Adagio's achieve. The choice to have them cross cut at 4500Hz/single capped, instead of the 2500 tested and 3000 they were at....proved to be remarkable. These are fast woofer's and tweeter's.
Now! ...providing the true identity of my ZMA (because of the Mod's) & Steve's great Redbook source/ZDSD!




Mr. Lee's interview:
Tell me about your woofers. How does an underhung driver differ from a well-hung driver?


Underhung means that it has a very short voice coil in a large magnetic field gap. The drivers are top grade and so are the magnets. The voice coils are very narrow and always move in a linear manner within a magnetic field regardless of excursion. Additionally, a traditional long voice coil moving in a short magnetic gap presents a high variable impedance to the amplifier.


Can you break it down in some more detail?


With a short voice coil in a long magnetic gap, as the music signal flows through the voice coil, the coil and the cone moving together produce the sound wave. A long magnetic gap structure offers a much wider linear magnetic flux density, alternately pushing and pulling the short voice coil back and forth. Since the magnetic force on the coil is constant and completely symmetrical with the motion of the piston assembly, the result is a sound wave with extremely low distortion and coloration, allowing it to respond much faster to a transient signal and to stop faster after the drive signal has ceased.


Compare that with the large signal behavior of high-excursion overhung transducers. Because the coil extends beyond the control of the magnetic flux field, it causes very high harmonic and transient distortion that can reach 5 - 20% whereas the underhung driver maxes out at 1%. Because of the very complex magnetic structure and complications involved in voice coil placement and fabrication, the underhung voice coil is difficult and expensive to fabricate.


What are the speaker cones made of?


They use a ceramic-impregnated fabric in the center with ceramic coating on either side to form a sandwich. These drivers are custom built for Acoustic Zen to my specifications. The ceramic coating makes for a strong, dense, rigid surface area that will not break up nor produce a lot of ringing. The cone is very stiff and light and as a result, very fast. It responds immediately to a signal and returns to its original position very quickly. This minimizes frequency overhang, colorations and distortions.


Why a Neodymium magnet?


An underhung driver's voice coil requires an extremely strong magnetic field. If you are using traditional magnets, the size and weight of the motor would be excessive. Neodymium allows us to maximize magnetic coverage while controlling weight and size.


Why did you choose a ribbon tweeter and how does your circular design differ from other approaches?


I don't want to get too technical here. My circular ribbon tweeter design, unlike a traditional dome or cone tweeter, presents a purely resistive impedance that's completely linear in the audio range. It also has an essentially linear phase response, which contributes to an immediate and precise response to any transients in a complicated music signal. This dramatically reduces distortion and coloration.


I am using the thinnest diaphragm possible, a 0.01 millimeter Kapton diaphragm. That's just about weightless, with a 95% covered aluminum circle of conductors across the entire vibrating area positioned between super strong Neodymium magnets. Some people use metal ribbons which can result in very harsh HF response. Kapton is not only extremely light, it is also heat resistant, hence the thermal behavior of the voice coil will not translate into audible distortions. My tweeter's larger circular membrane not only provides much higher power handling and a wider frequency response, it also eliminates the offsets between horizontal and vertical dispersion that are common with narrow ribbons.
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Room Treats-M.Green & mine
Sony TPort
Illuminati D60
Shunyata Z-Alpha DigPcord
Decware ZDSD DAC
Kimber Select KS1030
XLOProPcord
Decware ZMA/25th Mods
Kimber Select KS6063
Acoustic Zen Adagio/Modified
Kimber PK10 Palladian from wall
to PS Audio P3
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Lon
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Re: The 25th Anniversary Modified Experience
Reply #47 - 12/19/18 at 17:53:34
 
No, not really. The systems I've had upstairs have actually provided pretty darned good full spectrum sound downstairs. Which was why it was mainly a headphone system when heavily used. I'll be using the upstairs system with headphones when my wife is around. Which is fine. Intrigued to discover which is the best way to set it up and find the right speaker positions. I don't expect to get quite as good a sound as down on the first floor, but having a wife that is happy not to have to look at my equipment all the time will be a nice thing. Nothing will change for about six weeks as we wait for the credenza/cabinet she wants.
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HR-1,ZTPRE,ZBIT,ZROCK2,SEWE300B,CSP3-25mod,Taboo MkIV;Rega RP3 all GrooveTracer mods;PSAudio:PST+DSD,P15,NPC,PowerBases,AC-12 pwr cbls,Reference spkrcbls;Mapleshade SamsonV3;VooDoo:Cremona+Amati interconnects, IsoPods; headphones:Sennheiser HD800S,ZMF Ori,Oppo PM1
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Stefan
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Re: The 25th Anniversary Modified Experience
Reply #48 - 12/22/18 at 05:12:56
 
Finally got my modified zbit and 25th zrock2, dressed like my 25th amp, look and sound fantastic  :)
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- Stefan
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Rega rp6, Lounge Audio phono pre-amp, Lonely Raven PC, T+A DAC 8 DSD, ZBIT, ZROCK2+25th, SE84UFO25, Torii IV, Denon AVC-1SE, Infinity IRS Beta, Tannoy Cheviot, ERRx, Tiny Radials, Woo WA-3, Sennheiser HD800S
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lazb
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Re: The 25th Anniversary Modified Experience
Reply #49 - 12/22/18 at 20:09:42
 
How does Decware let you know about the status of equipment you have sent in for 25th Mods? Any notification at any point or does the modded piece just show up on your doorstep? I am getting anxious re. my ZROCK2! The system still sounds fantastic without it but it is missed for the bit of "tuning" it contributes/allows.
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