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Theory and Science of Room Treatments. Please add. (Read 2625 times)
Same Old DD
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Theory and Science of Room Treatments. Please add.
09/24/22 at 16:09:31
 
As a not so budding anymore, but rather a re-enlightened enthusiast of how dramatically room acoustics can affect what we actually enjoy about music in general, I want to have folks add their experiences to specific or general circumstances.
Kind of a chance for us all to take a breath and have another look at what we all have going, good or bad.

The more I have learned, the more I learned that the old stuff I knew was outdated and in need of some new thinking as the science has progressed.

Once I settled my mind some and realized that the HORROR of two window walls was only a small part of my acoustical issues in my own space, I began opening my mind to just how complicated this subject can be.
For all of us.

But I found this on one of the YouTube thingies that was showcasing high end systems in the background behind the creative Audiophile listings.
Now we've seen this system and I could not afford it, but the room is unique to me.

I do not understand the Science behind this design. I am hoping someone can and allows a bit of knowledge to share with the rest of us.

Look at this image for a moment and see if you see advanced science or just a really clever architectural designer person just making things look awesome.

Then bring something you see as questionable and let's hash it through.
I would be grateful for any and all input on the subject.
Even if all you have is a question, like me, I'll bet there is some interest and someone with an insight to share will step up.

One of the most satisfying things about this room is the fact that there are multiple seating positions.
So many of the super high end systems show only ONE chair. Sad in a way.

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Odd_Room_Treatment.jpg

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Tony
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Re: Theory and Science of Room Treatments. Please add.
Reply #1 - 09/24/22 at 18:26:42
 
I am also interested and perplexed by room treatment, so this is an exciting topic.  Was there a link to a page you wanted us to see?

Never mind.  There was a delay in the image coming up.  Still very interested in the question.
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Sean
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Re: Theory and Science of Room Treatments. Please add.
Reply #2 - 09/25/22 at 02:51:57
 
I'm super good at finding problems. Solving them...well, I found that this is a problem.

Couple of things that stand out to me:

We only see part of the room, what's behind the camera?

Is the black part of the ceiling flat? Could the black space between the fins on the ceiling collect standing waves or weird resonances?

The floor looks super flat, hard and reflective.

Pretty cool room though.
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Mannytheseacow
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Re: Theory and Science of Room Treatments. Please add.
Reply #3 - 09/25/22 at 03:44:49
 
I don’t have much to say on the photo DD shared but I will say that my experience is that there are many ways to achieve sound treatment besides Star Trek listening rooms, though these modern treatments might be the best option if they are a possibility for you. And that room in the photo does look totally awesome!
I saw this video: http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=M0Qe67lG9tw and it has some interesting points, such as the adobe bricks and vented basement space… granted this is a live room for recording and not an audiophile listening room. Still there are some valid ideas here I think.
In my own room I have limitations that I’ve learned to work with. I have a historic home and foam walls aren’t really an option. My speakers Ive recently centered around a fireplace of belt metiseds (http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Belt_Supergroup) which normally should be terrible. But I’ve found the abstract differential stone actually works as a diffuser, the vented bell of masonry around it I believe helps extend some low frequency control, and some heavy sound absorption behind my speakers and carefully placed at the center while listening create a well controlled sound stage with beautiful imaging and depth.  This combined with area rugs with dense underliner, rock wool corner insulation stuffed into decorative coffee sacks, large stuffed sofas and recliners, acoustic tiled ceiling, and acoustic curtain window treatments hide a wonderful listening room, disguising it as an elegant historic living room.  Not that what I’ve done is as good as it gets, or as good as the photos others have shared here, but I’ve noticed drastic improvements with these details and managed to maintain a comfortable livable listening space.
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Same Old DD
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Re: Theory and Science of Room Treatments. Please add.
Reply #4 - 09/25/22 at 05:21:23
 
Tony, I think every single one of us has something to add and I hope they do.

As far as the pic I posted, I have some more questions, still.
Hoping someone has Clue #1.
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Same Old DD
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Re: Theory and Science of Room Treatments. Please add.
Reply #5 - 09/25/22 at 05:24:34
 
Hi, Sean,
Your questions follow mine rather closely.
I wonder if the dark places are for absorption? Or do they actually hide a type of diffusion I have not seen?

Can not imagine the floor being right as it is either.
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Same Old DD
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Re: Theory and Science of Room Treatments. Please add.
Reply #6 - 09/25/22 at 05:35:11
 
Thanks for the details, Manny!
I have nothing like that. My house is along the lines of what I consider to be ultramodern in style with open spaces everywhere and even my fireplace is gas operated. My stone is actually brick with some  fake/plaster that looks like rock for accents and borders.

It looks nice, but I will never make it the center of my soundstage area.

Big comfy couches and a wall of shelves full of CDs and movies, vaulted ceiling and the living room sounds fine like it is for movies and dinner music in the background.

Doubt I'll ever invest in changing it.
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__Jon__
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Re: Theory and Science of Room Treatments. Please add.
Reply #7 - 10/08/22 at 17:14:30
 
The side walls seem purely reflective, which, given the size of the room, would not be ideal in terms of early reflections. The slatted ceiling would have some minor scattering properties but would primarily act as a waveguide to improve absorption. That is assuming there is absorptive material behind them. This room seems prioritized for a cool aesthetic and not performance.  The construction of the rear of the room would be interesting to see though.  
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GroovySauce
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Re: Theory and Science of Room Treatments. Please add.
Reply #8 - 10/12/22 at 14:34:00
 
It looks designed for aesthetics not performance. Seems most designs are aesthetic, not performance based. I’ve been in a few purpose built rooms that cost $100,000+ and they sounded terrible.

Another issue is what almost all acoustic treatment companies that sell “bass traps” don’t do anything below 100hz. So there is a lot of very misleading marketing dollars going into selling products that don’t do anything for bass.

Most rooms have a 60hz issue. 95+% of so called bass trap products do nothing for this.

It is really mind boggling how 2 6.5” drivers and 2 watts can put so much energy into a room. To manage that energy takes hundreds of pounds of treatment and a very high percent of coverage.

To compound the issue most products sold as “diffusers” are actually sound redirection devices.

There is a good reason why there is usually only one seat or seating area. It has a significant impact on the acoustics.

What the intent of the room? What is more important aesthetics, social or performance?

Good news is that adding a bit of absorption especially at the first, then second reflection points offers an appreciative benefit.

The room with the wooden sides could have low frequency management in the walls. The solid reflective sidewalls seem like a poor choice if good sound is the goal.
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Same Old DD
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Re: Theory and Science of Room Treatments. Please add.
Reply #9 - 10/16/22 at 03:52:03
 
Jon, Groovy, those were my first thoughts as well. I am always suspecting that maybe I just do not get it when I see something confusing.

Aesthetics first.
Someone mentioned Star Trek room and to me that fits.
Maybe if the sidewalls were built out toward the bottom instead of incuse? There might be some randomizing diffusion at specific frequencies?
I can only hope that the dark areas between the ceiling slats are for deep deep bass management.

Groovy, I agree about the commonplace offerings from almost every seller not actually working to address what they are supposed to fix.
From what I have learned lately, those pretty, decorative quick fixes do almost nothing below 400Hz or so. I think you are giving them more credit than they deserve.

Most of us do not think of that as the bass range, but the bass voice range in most cases.

I almost forgot to mention (just for the fun of it), I saw one ad that actually stated that their "acoustical" product would fix comb filtering problems.
I'm sure it was a translated nonsense selling ploy, but seriously. The list of problems it fixed was amazing.
Hang something on the wall to "cure" comb filtering?
Really? Can I use it for arthritus, too? How is it with potty training puppies?
Roll Eyes
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My Name is Earl
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Re: Theory and Science of Room Treatments. Please add.
Reply #10 - 02/19/24 at 22:47:57
 
This is an old and dormant thread, but after reading through I can’t help but hop in. Short version: Groovy is right. Most commercial products don’t address fundamental issues based on the real physics of acoustics, especially bass absorption.

Am I a trained acoustic engineer? No. What I have learned comes largely  from Dennis Foley of Acoustic Fields. I have consulted him and have some carbon panels on order to address low frequency issues in my room. It won’t be perfect because my room is too small for full treatment. You MUST address low frequency first because those frequencies also have harmonics that affect other frequency bands. Treating midrange and high frequencies won’t cure bass issues.

After I live with the four 6” carbon panels for awhile I will consult with
Dennis again and see what more can and should be done.

Diffusion is probably the LAST thing that should be addressed in any room. The effect of proper diffusion is to make a small room sound larger. Diffusion without treating the fundamental issues will make things worse.

Dennis’ products are not cheap. The biggest problem with most companies and commercial products is that they are relatively cheap and the manufacturers promise things that aren’t delivered. So customers are lured by those promises and relative affordability. Do they have an effect? Yes. Almost anything you do to “treat” a room will have an effect. I know this from my experience in constructing a homemade absorber to cover a televsion that is behind and between my speakers. It changed the sound, and yes, for the better. But it didn’t address the major issues, and it was too flimsy to keep using; it was an experiment and very, very cheap.

Sorry to ramble on, but when I saw the photo in the opening post I almost went screaming away from my iPad. That’s a total aesthetic project that also cost a helluva lot of money - money wasted, IMO. A lot of the comments and questions about it in the thread are dead on.

I’m not here to shill for Acoustic Fields - Dennis’ customer base, including the likes of Sony, Columbia, etc., speaks for itself.  I’ll try to remember to come back with more or start a new thread once I put the carbon panels in place and have them in the optimal positions. I’m forgoing any major gear acquisitions this year to fund this project. That’s how much confidence I have.
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1stwattlife
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Re: Theory and Science of Room Treatments. Please add.
Reply #11 - 03/05/24 at 18:23:24
 
MNIE-

Great minds must think alike. I just started a post yesterday that was supposed to be about the experience of hearing Dec-gear in the Decware listening room or maybe about the living transparency of master tape recordings, but soon became my old stump speech on room treatment. I had to delete it. In fact I was just about to start rewriting it when I found this thread revival. I'm in...let's go! lOl

I like what Dennis has to say. I like the approach.

IMO, you are absolutely correct referring to the order of treatment, bass first. Once that has begun to be dealt with you can actually start to hear your gear... and your room. Just speaking in a space that is even partially treated is an improved experience. Obviously the more finely detailed lilt of music, of course, must be improved as well.



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