Dana. Thanks for posting this. What a cool idea to use nice power tubes for a rectification circuit. I wonder what all is going on in there? The Hifi Cave review recordings are ridiculously bad through my headphone setup, but impressions from the cave man quite impressive. Interesting.

Very interesting. . . .

Ok this really turned me off…..the vendor has this idiotic hippie hipster jack-assed statement at the bottom:

“Save the earth and save yourself, be a vegetarian and keep enjoying music for a long long time !!”

W…..TF

Unacceptable. Effin’ mo-ron.

Brad

Everything matters. The big picture matters even more than the small one in the brain.

They are interesting devices. Hats off the the designer/engineer(s).

But screw the shit for brains statement which is utterly offensive and beyond that, highly problematic. It matters. Principle matters. And dumb hippie shit ruins everything it touches.

Thank you for being the person who always brings everyones attention to all the stupid shit here on this forum.
You always seem to be neck deep right in the middle of it.
Everyone needs a purpose in life. Its like a given, Stupid shit appears and there you are.

I'm not sure you quite know the meaning of utterly offensive.  Benifits of vegetarianism doesn't even approach the bar,  Hate spewed in the name of self rightouness....BINGO.

AND I QUOTE "Effin’ mo-ron."

The benefits of vegetarianism isn’t the problem but I knew you wouldn’t get it either. The blind spot screams the obvious.

Disappointing, but not unexpected.

The Height Of Audio Phoolery

"Careful BicycleJoe Lo-Fi according to the Forum moderator insulting other members can get you banned."

No worries!  When you get kicked off you just sign up again with a different name.

Isn't that right?

Lol.

Though potentially meant for a different thread, thanks Lon for nudging this thread back toward music rather than socio-political rubbish that has nothing to do with our musical quests!

It would be cool to see the inside of one of these rectifiers boxes.

Oh I get it.  This is a thread about innovation like the ZRock. CAJames gets it.  he put forth an idea about how it could work.  

You owe me and the Decware community an apology.  You are hijacking my thread, like what the Qaedat al-Jihad  did to airplanes.

The prices caught me by surprise too just thinking about rectifiers. And though rectifier changes are big time in my setup, the Hifi Cave guy's comments made the sonic effects sound like way more than a rectifier. Along with options for a range of intersting tubes that are not made as rectifiers, but well loved, like CAJames, Dana, and Lon pointed to, it appears to be more than a straight forward rectifier circuit. So guessing it might be rectification with heightened lucidity and dynamic hits beyond great rectifiers alone (why I would love to see an internal pic).... Anyway, seems to me, from this limited information, like it might feel more like some of Steve's pre stages musically.

I'm intrigued by his 300B SE amp with balanced inputs.

tempest62 wrote on 08/24/22 at 04:15:23:



Want a big picture perspective, Brad?

Every hostile vegan type is fooling themselves from the start.
Ever wondered what any plant that shows chlorophyll to the sun eats? Sugar conversions from the sun, but ... it takes more than the sun to get there.
Well, it's meat they eat mostly, whether in the form of worm or larval insect carcasses, bacterially processed bacteria colonies (the war is still going), reconfigured mammal carcasses, bones, fibers or collagen products of long dead animals, it's still meat. It takes several elements to make chlorophyll work and the abundance is from decaying animal matter.

Not the thick bloody rich, rare steaks I prefer, but all the plants all around us eat meat, too. If you eat plants, you are still consuming the meat of things that once had lips and faces and bones, in most cases.

Relax, pal. Those hippy types are just showing another side of just how little they actually know about Big Picture things.

Get a grip, then let it go.

Quote:


From him I understood it is truly UNBELIEVABLE.

Impression were Impressive ? got it. I understand completely?

Personally my impressions of the caveman is he doesn't have much to add except meaningless adjectives. Where his first test he ran it through Bluetooth, his second time played an MP3.

$UPREME $UPER DUPER$

My Impressions of the STR-1003 Supreme Super Tube Rectifier is add in the price of A pair of Western Electric 300B tubes and it costs 5K, IT IS NOT a  bargain

Direct order price
C$4,080 for regular chassis [US$ 3672 only!]"


Remember the Zen DESIGN philosophy Steve likes to have parts left over when he does a design, NOT add TWO more chassis AND a longer signal path to his design.

PS Psvane is derived from Shuguang. LINLAI is a derived from Psvane. It is no surprise to see some similarities across their tube offerings, since the engineers are hopping from one employer to another. Each brand has its own core offering:  

More info https://premiumvacuumtubes.com/who-is-linlai-tubes/

CAJames you're probably right.  In the HIFI Cave video he showed an option to bypass the tubes with a switch. So it's a tube rectifier buffer???

Peoples minds are amazing.

I think I want to change my answer. Now I'm guessing this is basically an external tube regulated power supply. So instead of feeding the power supply in the amp the high ripple DC output from the rectifier you feed it with super smooth tube regulated DC from this box. So the amp's PS has almost no work to do, and the power that hits your tubes is double extra filtered.

CAJames wrote on 08/25/22 at 01:41:36:


That analysis makes sense, thanks for sharing.

His "subwoofer synthesizer" also looks interesting. If it actually works as advertised I think it would be an amazing thing in my system. Sure is expensive though.

That does make more sense, CAJ.

Thanks.

But, Lon, subwoofer?
The music you listen to mostly has no sub bass content, or rarely ever did.
I don't know if you're joshin' a little or if your hat's on too tight.

Gotcha. I HAD to make the hat joke though.
I listen to organ music as well, but rarely post about it. I have some nice releases, but it is almost like my secret love of bagpipes.
I generally keep it to myself because there does not seem to be very much of that blood flowing these days.
My way of being a gentleman.



ZRock is at the top of my list, when things settle a bit.

Quote:


Indeed. Note that you get a 15 day "trial" where you can return it for your money back less 10%. So I nominate you to try it out

In other news I think I'm going to buy his (used) balanced 300B amp. So that will be fun to compare to my UFOs.

Nice move on the 300B.

In response to will's phrase: "impressions from the cave man quite impressive. Interesting."

From BicycleJoe Reply #29

"From him I understood it is truly UNBELIEVABLE.

Impression were Impressive ? got it. I understand completely?

Personally my impressions of the caveman is he doesn't have much to add except meaningless adjectives. Where his first test he ran it through Bluetooth, his second time played an MP3.
.....
Remember the Zen DESIGN philosophy Steve likes to have parts left over when he does a design, NOT add TWO more chassis AND a longer signal path to his design."


I am with you, these recordings for system input, and recordings of the room sound, are a distraction. And for me the same with his style of presentation. But he has been one of the folks Thomas & Stereo uses to test gear Thomas is reviewing, Thomas apparently trusting his listening skills, experience and system/room. I get the impression Thomas is pretty real, and his using this guy's setup and discernment tends to point to some credibility for me. Also, the few I have seen, the hifi cave guy with Thomas, or Thomas conveying hifi cave guy's impressions to broaden our view beyond Thomas', his comments tended to make more sense in that context. So though I don't have much experience with this guy, I do imagine he is describing real things.

I get it though. This video assumes we know and trust his system/room, listening skills, and experience, without a lot of evidence from the video to support that trust.

Relative to your thoughts on Steve's purest design approach, as he is working on a new design, I completely get that simpler can be better.... that is, if all the parts, and wires, and design relatively purely convey the recording in its completeness, which Steve obviously strives for and gets. I also get from Steve that when "it" is not enough, it is not enough, and he reworks the design until is sounds right. And sometimes this can take more. Like his addition of some ZRock tech into the Sarah, or offering bypass mods (that are now sometimes built in to new designs). In these cases, more is more. Also he has his string of pre stages, many of which he seems to use himself much of the time, so again, more of the right things can be more for musical expression in a good system and room. Just saying the broader context is important to me in these deliberations.

Similarly, having played a lot with mods and cable making, I can't avoid how much part sounds effect design sounds. It is just really obvious once the right better part/wire replaces a little lesser quality ones. A lot of subtle masks and veils solved together can really add up if parts allow complete sound on their own, and if they all go together to compliment one another. Then I can get how as little as possible can be "better," but also, upgrading a bunch of parts done well can leave room for more extra good parts or cables while still having a purer signal presentation than stock.

I think simpler synergy can be even more important if parts are good but not quite as complete for purity of musical presentation... each part being a little less transparent and fast, adds up too. Clearly in this case, if we upgrade a bunch of those parts with musical discernment, that original design will be more pure, and allow more flexibility, while retaining musical transparency and speed...  For example, even with Steve's really well conceived designs that use quite musical and transparent parts combinations, replacing some with a more transparent set of RCAs, well designed UPOCC internal signal cables, and a more complete sounding attenuator, quite notably increases transparency and musicality of the amp altogether... from the RCAs to tubes, letting more complete and complex information from the recording through. In this case, that could leave room for more parts, especially if they are really good wires or parts, and still be ahead of my stock amp in purity if done well.

I feel like I can say these things because I have done hundreds of experiments at this point with all the usual stuff we get into, and a steady stream of progressive modifications, including loads on my Decware. Also I have done many power, IC, speaker, digital, and power cable iterations. And I learn from what I have heard from seemingly countless comparisons of parts and wires while doing these pretty methodical modifications and explorations.

I got inspired by VyoKyong's ZMA modifications a long time ago, so started half-heartedly collecting parts on sale, and finally getting my nerve up to go inside the gear, started doing some experiments on my Torii MKIV in the fall of 2016. Power supply bypassing was a big 1st interest, in part because I had a lot of low value caps around I had tested in my speakers as bypasses on the tweeter caps. I loved the clarifying effects from the ones that worked best, more complexity and speed while being able to tune subtle beauty in tonally. So I wanted to see if the power supply would benefit similarly, and it did, being able to hear pretty close to the same cap characteristics in the power supply as on the tweeters or in the signal path.

Below is one of the first pics I took of the Torii IV modifications, not thinking to document earlier experiments until several months after getting going. Though there are some upgraded parts in this pic, it looks about like stock, but you have to imagine it without the Jupiter Copper coupling caps that replaced the Jupiter HTs, the HTs becoming power supply bypasses. Also, the bigger Mundorf Supremes (black) having replaced pretty good sounding, but not as good sounding 3.3 uF caps; and all the little bypass caps on top of the Mundorfs and the stock grey and black IC electrolytic caps. Anyway, I hope the stock "bones" can be imagined in this pic. And though I am not using most of these particular caps now, this was a remarkable upgrade at this point for this amp....

From this and later experiences, I learned that the power is really the heart of these amps, and the better the power is at making recordings resolved, transparent, and musically dynamic/immediate, the better the amp.

Based on all this, these Super Rectifiers, by appearances, also being a lot about power supply purification and enhancement, if done really well, I suspect they could potentially be pretty amazing "additions" to nice gear, as the cave guy said. To me, conceptually, some really good power supply and signal path work in these components could well enhance our power supply qualities, while introducing cool tubes to our overall sound for tuning to personal tastes...conceptually anyway.

To illustrate further how more can be more in the right context, the 2nd image below is a current version of the MKIV, now about six years into pretty steady, relatively methodical explorations. By now lots and lots of parts are upgraded, a number of values changed, and a load of bypasses are used about everywhere I could find that is relevant. To me, without doubt, in this case, way more is way better, the amp having many more parts than stock. A rough count gave me about 22 more parts on each channel, mostly small bypass caps. A fun trip so far, and clearly not about production the way I did it one or two parts at a time, but it sounds amazing. Needs some tuning from the last cap changes that I can hear now that they are all burned in, but close.

Just some views on purity of the musical presentation that suggest these Super Rectifiers could potentially be beautiful "additions" with the right gear, power, and cables.

Sorry, I can't figure out how to make these pics fit right. Any tips?

Thanks CAJ. Very helpful info. Come to think of it though, these pics already losing clarity, I wonder if that would be better in this case, so much going on? What do you think?

These are 720 wide and fit here. There?

Manny,

Not wanting to sidetrack this thread, with more about my experiments except for the ideas I was trying to look at in relation to adding things (like the Super Rectifiers or Steve's pre stages, or parts and cables), and the relativity of "purest" design and effects. And I have been hoping to make some threads with in depth info on modifications I have done, but it has just always seemed like a lot to take on, having been working on the Torii MKIV, CSP3, ZRock2, and HR-1s, and lots of parts testing. But people seem to want to see and talk about it, so I will try to get it moving over the next month or two if I can. Relative to your appreciation of the beauty of Steve's designs, I agree, and guessing you have seen tbe Sarah development thread and pics since you have one on order. But also there are more you may want to check out for some more recent design versions incorporating some of Steve's recent refinements, the SE84UFO25, and I think there was one on the CSP325... also the Torii MK5 development thread is a beauty.

Thanks BicycleJoe Lo-Fi. Good to know how those IMGBB thumbnail sizes actually work on this forum... I am used to the thought of thumbnail as quite little#$%^&*()

Will, my comment about the circuit beauty as it relates to the super rectifier topic is that [to me] if I had this beautiful circuit topology as part of my system, that system would be purposefully to showcase that circuit, and adding any additional components to this system would have to compliment the initial circuit, in fidelity, symmetry, and beauty. My point being, throwing the question to the community of how the super rectifier might compliment or detract from each of these things?
I’d love to learn from your experiences with your mods in a separate thread too.
Cheers.

It is interesting to note that very expensive NOS or very expensive new production tubes ($500 - $2000 a pr. for example) aren’t necessary at all in these devices. For example Shuguang or Psvane entry level 211, 805, 845, or 300B (a custom adapter from Space-Tech @ $200 is required for a 300B) will fit the bill. You’d need to spend 5x that much to get about 10-20% improvement from that.

Paul2 wrote on 08/28/22 at 20:53:44:

Yes, the builder does seem to have quite a bit of knowledge about these tube types so he may be right about these price points. I myself have zero knowledge with a lot of the four pin types he mentions. . . but if I had one of these I'd be experimenting. Still. . . I wonder how compatible they are to Steve's components (I sure am tired of blowing fuses in the underside of the chassis) and at present I would need two of these external rectifiers--not the easiest situation to afford right now.

Well, I didn't understand the post at first but I think I do now. No, I don't want to buy an amp from him while waiting for Steve's. I'm perfectly content waiting with my excellent Monoblocks, and I want Steve's take on the 300B, very much.  And I'm theorizing I won't have an additional year or year and a half to wait--just my gut telling me, but I think the new measures Steve has put into place with production and will put into place going forward, and the fact that some will not wait the full length and drop off the list will mean a shorter wait than that. We'll see.

That's possibly an okay plan though my preamp in the main system (ZTPRE) does not have a tube rectifier.

I'm not trying one of these without checking with Steve and if I do it will be after I receive the Sarah. And I may not have the cash then.

My impression is this guy is an idiot and possibly a scammer.  there is nothing magical about 'external" tube rectification.  If he wants to market it as "upgraded" rectification, then he might have to share his design concepts, and WHY it is better, which he doesn't seem to do.  But wait 60 seconds or you can't play in his treehouse.  Huh????  

I'll let Steve Deckert design my power supplies over this idiot all week long.  Steve uses tube rectification in a lot of his designs.

Jerry

I think differently, less harshly. I think there may well be something to his design, and find it intriguing. I've no set plan to purchase one especially without confirming compatibility with Steve's designs, nor am I advising or "telling" anyone to purchase one and what to do with their audio funds.

Steve sells ZSTAGES and ZBITS and other "accessory" devices too. And this outfit seems to have a similarity to Decware in philosophy of design and manufacture, I certainly don't think he's a charlaton or fraud.

Well, I'm sorry but I don't agree with this fully. Steve is not free from hyperbole and salesmanship. Some things that he has been espousing I don't share the enthusiasm for, such as Cryotone tubes, and somethings he says I don't agree with such as there's no need for Anniversary mods if you have an untreated room (if in fact he has said that) --I have untreated rooms and hear clear and strong improvements having added them to several components, knowing the "before" intimately.

The fact that this guy is not filling his website up with "papers" and lots of personal statements doesn't make him a "snake oil" peddler to me, and I can see a design philosophy and knowledge in his designs that can be considered impressive.

Like Decware until the last few years there is no stockpile of independent reviews to read about his work, nor does he have a forum to house owner impressions--I suspect his resources are even slimmer than our favorite builder's and he dedicates his time elsewhere.

I see a similar cohesion and common thread throughout his products to the extent that is true for the Decware line. Personally I see no evidence that he is not an audiophile as we are. I can certainly see the potential advantage of a "super rectifier" using power tubes, and that could be a potent innovation if implemented properly. I'm giving him the benefit of the doubt, just as I did Steve many years ago.

I'm not doubting its efficacy, I was buying cryotreated tubes and the interconnects I love long before Steve got enthusiastic and before Wathen got into the biz. I just don't get the same improvements and feel as enthusiastic from the two tube types that I did try and don't feel inclined to try more from the Cryotone lineup. I could not describe my impressions the way that Steve has his.

I think both these builders have more in common than not and there's room for me to admire the philosophy and work of both, and also to be very loyal to Steve, having had my audio life vastly improved by his work for 25 years.

You know over the years I've encountered a lot of resistance to Steve's hyperbolic talk and his "ecstatic" writings about the sound of his equipment and seen persons turn away from considering Decware because of it--Space-Tech may be sparing himself some grief and not turning away customers by being less of a "personality" on his pages. But that doesn't mean that he isn't as excited about his own design discoveries and products--reading between lines I seem to sense this.

By the same token look how many versions of the Zen amp Steve has, and how many options you can add to his products that bring them up to high price points as well. I think you may be being too harsh on Space-Tech with little real backing.

The biggest difference I see between his business and Steve's is that Steve spent about 30 years building an online presence including a forum that took a few decades to really flower and it's these customer reviews that have generated a lot of interest and business and also forced him somewhat to interact with customers less ephemerally than by telephone and far more publicly than by telephone or email. And this gives you more trust in his products. Understandably, but in a way Space-Tech is thus damned with little real reason other than a lack of information. Also Steve seems to have more family members and employees as a resource than he does, though it's hard to say with little information. It's like a glass half full, half empty--I think we're looking at it differently that way because his website is not jam-packed with info the way that Steve's has become.

No, I'm not going to try to review his product, that's not my bag and time becomes even more limited for such things as the months go by--my time is being pledged to other things by my wife lately.

BicycleJoe,

Just wondering since you reference your gear as a Rachel, ZP3, and ZLC on order, have you ever listened to Decware personally?And have you ever done listening comparisons of cyro'd tubes compared to the same make of non-cryo'd and relatively close measuring tubes?

CA, that sounds exciting. Your Scottish heritage took a bit of a hit .

Yes, please do give us your impressions. That may be just enough for me to try the STR-1001 Super Rectifier a bit sooner than the plan to shelve it for some time.

Along with an 805a (and 300B with S-Tech custom adapter for 200 slaps in the face) I’m also very intrigued to try the monster mercury vapor 872a due to its exceptional air, however it would need toned down a tad on the bright end with a bit of tuning.

I did email Steve today and asked for some off-the-cuff thoughts in this thread.

Brad

Sounds like you have had intersting experiences with electronics. I can not claim to be an engineer, more an explorer based on minimal tech to help get me where I am trying to go, and very serious listening. In this, I have found many engineer views notably inadequate compared to what I hear, so presume that much of the "science" that causes these engineer's "beliefs" is inadequate also. And when engineers can't hear something many of us can based on their belief system, this implies to me that "technical" bias is overwhelming unbiased observation in many cases. I find it really an amazing presumption that our analysis at this state of development with standard measuring gear can be considered complete compared to what we perceive with our bodies and minds.

So I don't mistrust scientific theory or practice perse, but human desire can turn anything real into modified reality that is believable enough to appear to be real without carefully looking (delusion), and therefore create permeating bias in the thoughts and efforts of humans. It seems to me that just the money part commonly corrupts scientific practice, limited funds defining the need for studies to prioritize this or that, and only go to certain levels of investigation, while whatever ends up not prioritized leaves the picture incomplete.

And this goes for the opinions of others for me, even at times those who I highly respect and trust, like Steve. Though Steve remains profoundly instrumental in enhancing my life, bringing realer musical experiences to my home, and I continue to learn from his explorations and discernment, I have found some of his comments and opinions over many years to appear to me to be based a little more in bias than what I have experienced with some of the same stuff in listening tests. But also we each have our own objectives within our systems and rooms and the development of the system/rooms reflect that...so one system may make some things clearer than other systems and visa versa, and this has influence on our opinions of what is real.

So even with pretty deep agreement, we all have different objectives, experience, perceptions, and time allowed for each area of our investigations. For me this makes it difficult to make any strongish remarks without qualifications and explanations of where the remarks are coming from, especially since there are so many variables in systems, rooms, and each person's perception and consciousness. I guess the end of that, is that some of us with really worked out system/rooms and long practice in discernment, have strong agreement about a lot of the many balances we hear that combined make the music realer. But finally, on the whole, most of us are not "measuring" the qualities of gear equally, even in direct experience, and though a given piece of gear, or tube, or cable does carry relatively repeatable traits, apparently it will not sound the same everywhere and to everyone.

Further, I personally have to qualify even more deeply if I have no personal experience with something, though occasionally I will point to the opinions of trusted musical friends and teachers, folks who I know from agreement over and over that they have extensive experience and hear the broader and more nuanced pictures of music pretty articulately. But as my system and skills evolve, I just can't be absolute on most things even with listening experience, knowing the vast variables from everything influencing everything. I can love a proven part change in the system that is one of hundreds of parts, or not, depending on context. And each adopted part changes that context.

So mostly I am much more comfortable talking about my own experience and interpretation as a basis for what I am trying to convey, trusting what my perception has "proven" to me countess times, "proving" or "disproving" "science," hopes, and theory I have heard, read, or had. And even with things I know from my experience to be real in this system and room, I try to be careful not to be aggressive or absolutist, in part because that is usually polarizing, so not an effective means of communication to me, and as much, there are just too many variables for everyone's knowledge and experience to necessarily match completely with a given exploration.

But hopefully, we can provide pointers for other questers, especially based on our real-life observations and discoveries.


Some ideas that seem relevant to me today anyway...

The JJs I have tried were definitely different.
I would have to say that they enhanced the bass range some, but it was not a refined enhancement.

Some of the instantaneous attack was smoothed over in some way. Just not as precise as even the stock Sovtek versions.

I have not tried the cryo'ed JJs, but I agree the standard ones were not to my taste.

Posted by: GroovySauce on: 08/30/22 at 07:24:46
Quote:

GroovySauce wrote
I don’t follow that it needs to pierce the vacuum. The metal goes from outside the vacuum to inside the vacuum. There is no break in the metal. Long enough exposure should have the entire tube inside and out the same temperature. This might be why certain cryo treatments people report don’t make a difference?

Quote:


Groovy Sauce asked
Why would it make a difference if the insulator is a vacuum?

The Cryo-tone tubes I've put in my system did sound different than the JJ non cryo'd tubes. I did prefer the Cryo-tone vs JJ. I don't care for the JJ sound. Cryo-tone took the JJ sound and refined it. They still don't suit my taste.


Answer the absolute zero coolant @ minus 273 degrees Celsius has to make physical contact with the critical bits and pieces inside the vacuum envelope

Quote:


Groovy Sauce I myself do not use JJ tubes. if you enjoy and hear a subjective difference good enough, enjoy the Wathen tubes but FYI although I've deleted their email JJ who manufacture the rebranded Cryotone tubes for Wathen answered the same. You can ask them yourself by writing info@jj-electronic.com

Doug yes you flat earthers are a stubborn lot and countless authorities opinions doesn't matter much to you.  

Tell me why hasn't Western Electric, Mullard, GE, Siemans, Tung-Sol, Electro-Harmonix, Genalex - Gold Lion, JAN Military, JJ Electronics, Psvane, SED Winged "C", Shuguang, Sovtek, Svetlana, Telefunken, Tung Sol, Groove Tubes or RCA ever adapted the processes of Cryogenic treatment you value so highly. Can you name one tube manufacturer past or present that ever cryogenically treated their tubes?

Crickets.

They must not care to make money and are or were in business for altruistic reasons or maybe no one ever told them or convinced them that cryogenics was a way to improve their products.
Maybe they respect and love their customers too much to upsell them with pseudo science.
Or maybe Cryogenic doesn't work inside a vacuum. I'll go with that last one.


Dougie I don't feel I am stuck in a corner but you do seem to be the one stirring the pot while just saying your not. A bit passive aggressive aren't you

Like my mother taught me "You can fool some of the people all the time, and all of the people some of the time, but you can't fool all of the people all of the time.

Now I wasn't trying to start a fight, I don't think that way. I was answering Will's question😵‍💫 with my opinion, you are entitled to yours, but next time try and back it up with some objective evidence other than subjective hear say.

It is Will, you need to ask Doug why he reopened that can of worms invoking your name and others, as I noted above I was responding directly to your question then Doug  chimed in with his 2 cents from behind the tall weeds.

My opinion of the Super Rectifier? I believe I answered your question respectfully and completely above.

Not what I said and more correctly not what I wrote. I was responding to direct inquiries about my opinion. It is not ideologies that all the tube manufacturers or purveyors of tube listed above are not in agreement with your subjective arguments. As I stated I have no problem acknowledging cryogenic treatment has an affect on bare metals.

AS far as the Super Rectifier you haven't actually heard one have you?

Get back to me when a tube manufacturing company adapts cryogenicc treatment to their manufacturing process.  Let's put a pin on that instead of being deliberately obtuse.

You keep saying others biases, Will your bias lays in the belief of your own of subjective argument. More power to you and your philosophies for truly as Hamlet suggests that human knowledge is limited: "There are more things in heaven and Earth, Horatio, / Than are dreamt of in your philosophy" [science].

If your interested in the Sarah and lay out $1500 for a pair of WE 300B tubes by all means send them out to be treated or buy some treated JJ's if that is your pursuit of happiness.

I have listened to Cryo as I mentioned above, I prefer select vintage NOS to most current production tubes cryod or not. I will try some of Western Electric current offerings if they have tubes I need.

Good Night! Sleep Tight! Don't let the bedbugs bite.
If they bite sleep tight, they'll come back another night.

left to right all Mullard late 50's early 60's

EF86, 12AX7, 12AX7, 12AT7, Pair EL84 and an EZ 81 rectifier

Quote:


"Wait a minute" is most likely necessary to avoid an onrush of current created by the additional capacitors added from the targeted amp, therefore avoiding early tube failure in the external rectifier.

I totally agree with keeping this external rectifier out of any of Decwares anniversary offerings. Steve did a very good job with the anniversary mods.

John

Edited:


John wouldn't that apply to current production WE or Mullard? These days anyone who is in the market for tube hi-fi equipment falls under the "Audiophile" demographic and who wouldn't want repeat business.

Western Electric has been marketing to that segment for more than half a century. BTW I didn't say promote I said include in their manufacturing process to improve their product. I am sure you have a dozen other repartees to support your position but none of them can refute that there is no tube manufacturer past or present that believed in the efficacy of cryogenic treatment. Do you know how tubes are actually made? It would be simple to add one more step to the manufacturing process. Quite simple to apply cryogenic treatment to the bits and pieces before the tubes were actually assembled by hand. Thus side stepping the Vacuum Envelope problem, or if there is no such problem treat finished tubes batches before packaging.
If they have no interest why would they go to the bother of retooling and opening factories for such a limited market.

From what I understand from Western Electric promotion is they are a spare no expense, time, or effort organization to deliver the best product they can make.



https://youtu.be/PA8G5zRjriI HD1080p
Batch Process Montage | From the Rossville Works

Groovy, I agree. I am pretty sure I can say that after an earlier version of a Rachel, some of Bob's MG944s, an improved front end, and more transparent and complete cables expanding my musical landscape... then power to the gear, and the power in it, have likely been the most important and influential system areas in seeking the deeper and more complete balances, the deeper beauty. Tubes to me are really important also, a huge playground for me with likely hundreds of NOS tubes. But by refining the power supply parts, the tubes are less critical, while also being more resolving and revealing of their traits. So the good ones are more translucent and complete, and the lesser ones worse, a more resolved environment showing their limitations clearly. And that is using mostly Decware, just helping it to do what is does more completely.

So I agree about the power of the rectifier (and circuit) being foundational. In my mind so much begins with the rectifier and associated chokes and transformers, so that area is always in the forefront for me with refinement work. But it all matters. And as I suggested earlier, all that power supply work was a profound improvement in everything musical with the Decware that I have carefully modified mainly by sound....

But I also agree with others that Steve makes great power supplies, and that this is a big part of his sound... Yet, thank goodness, he is always working to improve his power supplies (and the rest), so an ongoing creative process that yields real results. Related, my experience shows that the power supplies, with careful and balanced efforts are upgradable, A-type mods or not. So my quest is in seeking over time making a world class amp more world class. And Steve has provided an amazing platform for folks like me, having squeezed as much beauty out of the amps as he can, while making his things affordable for the highly considered quality he gets...

The rectifier is clearly a big part of this, and the power empowering the rectifier can definitely help provide more translucent resolution, immediate and balanced speeds, micro-micro to macro-macro dynamics, and critical spectral balances.... So I hear you, finally the rectifier is fundamental to the whole sound, especially once we seek deeper and deeper immersion, the rectifier defining a lot of how complete the inputs and other tubes, and all that supports them can be.

In this context, conceptually, it is impossible for me not to "believe" that something like the Super Rectifiers could potentially be revelatory. And I am guessing the measurements are pretty right being built to replace normal rectifiers we use. And especially with the standby switch, it might just work beautifully??? But I agree that it would be wise to get a feel from Steve about possible cautions and compatibility.

I can see how a vacuum would make a big difference.  That's how a thermos works.  There is a vacuum between the outer layer and the inner liner so the heat / cold doesn't escape.  Also according to a previous post to achieve a -272 C temperature the agent usually liquid nitrogen has to be in direct contact with the medium.  If you just dipped the base maybe thru conduction the metal inside the vacuum would eventually reach close to the absolute zero and because of the vacuum it wouldn't heat up to the ambient temperature but I have no idea how long that would take but metal and glass expand and different rates so I could also see if not done correctly (whatever that process would be?)  the vacuum could easily be compromised.

That said I've never heard one...  maybe decfest

It’s getting hard to focus on external tube rectification and it’s potential benefits with the tangential debate on cryogenics.  Would love to hear from folks like Earthbound who end up buying an external rectification unit.  It would also be interesting to hear Steve’s take on it.

Joe, while I respect your and Brent Jesse’s opinion, perhaps it’s time to just move on?  Our community is big enough to accommodate both who believe and don’t believe in cryo and there is no need for either party to go out of their respective ways to denigrate the other party for their views.  You’ve said your peace (and then some).  For the good of the group (and this thread), let’s call it a night.

Kamran

So, we got this external tube rectifier introducing noise to a well tuned amplifier(Decware)!

Just don't jive IMHO!

Capacitors are inherent of creating noise in amplifiers. Think of the noise static electricity creates when discharged between a finger and door knob...ouch! Thats what happens inside a capacitor. So the ETR adds more...

Extending the socket of the targeted amp with an umbilical cord creates resistance and limits current to a degree that was not present in the amp prior insertion of the ETR.

MP3's compromise media. A caveman is beating bones over improvement of sound while listing to compromised media!

I think ear fatigue will set in after haphazardly inserting a ETR in my system.

I pass.

John

I love to see arguments about sh#t when nobody posting has any direct listening experience with an audio product. Really this is just arguing for the expressed purpose of arguing. Come on forum members, let's step up our game and share helpful information to each other. Get a grip folks!

HK

ditto

It is nice to watch a good argument that doesn't degrade into a name calling contest.

Everyone acted pretty much as a adult and I didn't have the need to step in and break things up.

Nothing political, no one called anyone a idiot or took potshots.

See different opinions can be displayed here with no bloodletting.

Donnie

Donnie said:  “It is nice to watch a good argument that doesn't degrade into a name calling contest.”

I got called a “flatearther”, which is no big deal.  Of real concern is how he knew.

Quote:


What cap makes noise through a speaker in an audio system?

The umbilical is far too short to cause any ill effects related to resistance. Actually the impedance of the rectifier itself is a few thousands fold over that of the umbilical.

Brad

I don't really disagree with you--I wouldn't try one of these without Steve's input on the component. But I think I have a little more intuitive faith in this product. .. I think it could potentially produce a better result than a thirty dollar rectifier in the right component.

I would like to note that the 30% restocking fee is only for custom orders, other restocking fees are 10% and 20%. One big consideration is that postage from the US to Canada and from Canada to the US is HIGH. Really hign.

Well that's good to know. My last mailings to and from Canada a year or so ago were awful damned expensive.

Interested in hearing your impressions of the amp.

JBzen and Brad,

You guys lost me on the spoon bang gang thing... Can you educate me on what this means... sorry, I don't get out much

JBzen,

Am I correct that you like a "purist" approach...tending not to wanting more things, even very transparent things in your paths. If so I get it, especially in theory, and if all else is equal in design, parts, wires, and cables.... But on the other hand, if it is all really good stuff to start with, in my case with Steve's "signature" sound considerations unifying them, my experience is that it is easier to add things of the same basic style. And these pre-stages being generally pretty transparent, while offering different enhancements from the designs, I like how they can compliment each other and the amp. Once tuned carefully with great tubes and all, individually and together, for me the improvements to musicality can easily outweigh the losses, liking the "improvements" enough that I have to  listen for the subtle losses from more things in the path. That said, I do have really good power now, super good cables throughout, pay attention to vibration tuning, etc, so a lot of impediments to un-smeared and translucent sound are taken care of along with careful tube tuning, and later, modifications.

And with successful modifications throughout, the same easy integration tends to happen for me, but with increased transparency, natural immediacy, realistic dynamics, clearer space and harmonic complexity, etc. Time and time again, adding the CSP3 or ZRock or ZBIT, I can improve my Torii sound. And as this progression unfolds, though subtle minor losses remain, I have to listen harder to hear them.

A fun part, each progressive longer dive into one component always reveals ways to improve the others, taking the sound of all the rest further yet, and creating some new references to improve the others from.

The other side though.... I had not gotten a new component in a long time, and got a used ZRock2 with only the tube mod. After hearing it with everything else modified pretty successfully, I would not have been able to keep it had I not been into modifications... it was compelling and cool, but just not up with the rest in their post stock or 25th mod states... Compared to the rest, it was a little slow and masked.... illustrating how even with nice designs, context matters when adding things.

So I set out to bring the ZRock into equilibrium with the rest, and pretty much needed to do all I did on the others to get there, all changes arrived at by sound tests... extra good connectors and wires/cables, resistor and cap tuning/refining, really careful bypass tuning, and in this case, output caps on the EQ board. And having focussed on it for months, it got me wanting to bring the Torii up some more to catch up with the ZRock's enhanced traits. The "new" ZRock engaged, more density without thickness or weighting the balances too much toward bass, complex harmonics with more complete space and fine detail throughout...definitely having a ZRock flavor, but what got my attention as much was how improving it taught me how the super tuned Torii could improve.

So lately, I am running my Torii with only a ZBIT between it and DAC, and the Torii seeming about right now, this thread stimulated me to test this setup with and without my the seriously modified ZRock2.

After the ZRock revealed it, the biggest thing the Torii lacked in comparison was very fine detail and space that the ZRock in this state helped pull. But I am always listening to the whole and the many balances, so also had my attention on more refined speed balances, open density, and richer complexity throughout, less smearing supporting it all. Consistently I find cap combos (base and bypass layers, power and coupling) are instrumental in bringing in the finer tonal nuances and finer detail and space, potentially contributing greater resolution, and associated, increased density also if needed. These can be adjusted with the right little caps and/or layers of caps... like more resolution with less apparent density and more space, or more resolution with more apparent density (or warmth, or space, shimmer, body, etc). And tuned well, finer detail, space, and density can carry throughout the spectrum, just from the right choices of these (added) little bypass combos. Though generally the case that smaller decent caps can help bigger bypasses do better, a lot of seemingly decent caps do not work as well as I like for this. But the right combos of the right caps promote a more authentic musical presentation everywhere, all the finer nuances of refining speed, space and resolution improving bass density with complexity, more timbral completeness, more resolved bass attacks and decays, clearer representation and differentiation between the kick drum and string bass notes... and same with mids and highs when all is right.

Anyway, an interesting trip lately having brought the Torii up to new levels based on insufficiencies the ZRock work revealed. And turning on the ZRock, I love it, or without, I love it. When on, richer resolution, but now more difficult to distinguish after the Torii tune up... but listening to whole records and getting reacquainted, its magic is there, more dense without thickness, more "analog" smooth with loads of fine detail, more natural immediacy and dynamics, more refined detail complexity and articulation along with more bass boldness and articulation. And after a while of adapting, it got more magical...just realer with a touching sweetness, not colored, but sweeter. With the "new" Torii, each of the ZRock's individual sonic area's additions and support  were relatively subtly, but they added up in the experience, end results much greater than the sum of the individual improvements. When I listen carefully for issues related to more parts in the paths, I can still hear it slightly in some aspects of the sound, things a little more concentrated making a little less complex space between the finest details. But with the added harmonic sweetness shifting toward the mids a little as a result of the greater density and a little stronger bass in the balance, the space feels more solid and empty too while the ZRock enhances the whole in its particular ways.

It is always surprising to me how much further "great" can go as I learn the tools better, and learn to discern sonic traits better. So I guess all this is relative, everything depending on all else. And I suppose I could call myself a purist, the purity and completeness of the musical experience the bottom line, but I get it in part with refined complexity.


On another note, I don't understand how one can say without looking inside and listening that the STR Super Rectifiers would be no better than using better rectifiers. Possible I suppose, but if this designer is as serious as he sounds like he is, and as straight forward and honest as his emails imply, I doubt it is no better than changing rectifiers. And if my supposition is real, and we like his style, I still think it could potentially be enlivening, even with my super tuned power supplies. Maybe...

I am starting to more seriously consider getting one myself to test, and in hopes of helping to clear up all this speculation. The idea of the influences of an 805 or 845, etc, with purported increases in all the other good things from the circuit design, it is compelling to me, and I could get the lowest level model and use it on the CSP3. But then, for some true believers in "purist" simplicity, I guess my explorations and interpretations may not be believable anyway, so would my opinions on this thing matter in this thread...maybe to some.

Yes those tubes seem like they could offer compelling flavors to our sounds, especially with the support of the circuit being a big player in the effects Al seems to seek.

Thanks Brad for the colorful and notably aggressive definition of spoon gang clanging... still not self evident to me by the language, but I don't hang out on political, or the social sites, or watch TV, or wherever one learns these things. I at least understand now what it means though, so thanks.

I prefer civil discourse over amped up aggression myself...aggression generally cultivating aggression, and a lot of energy that could have gone into real learning spent on reactivity back and forth to aggression, making solving problems or helping each other difficult or impossible. I see no political evangelical benefit in it either, in part for these reasons, and in part because our political/media machines have cultured polarization for so many decades, that fear, frustration, anger, hatred and aggression are now systemic.... which cultivates self-fulfilling polarization!

Guess that probably makes me a spoon-gang guy huh?

Running to the moderator and complaining? I would guess this is perhaps not real for most of us, Donnie likely paying attention to threads where known politicized aggression might possibly develop and try to chill it before it blossoms.... hoping to mitigate what to me is as much a vehicle for discrediting or picking unproductive fights as anything. My thoughts anyway.

Will,

Certainly you are not part of the spoon bang gang in this thread. Quite the opposite. Think of a wedding reception where we pick up a spoon and bang on china requesting a romantic response from the just married couple. Apply that to this thread where noise was created, as I took it, "to put out or shut up" eliciting a response from the moderator. A form of censorship that this forum was never about.

Brad's idea of inserting the SR into a CSP3 is a good one. Groovysauce's though of physically adding yet another piece of hardware to the system is valid. CAJames unraveling the mystery that might be in the box is interesting and thought provoking. Just a few examples of ideas and speculation without ownership. Who would have thought of those with censorship.

You sir are very articulate in your writings with painstaking detail. The pics of your work parallels your writings. I, as you are open minded and willing to readily admit mistakes as we learn. When you have time to organize your tweaks and post, my eyes will be eager to absorb those.

Space Techs return policy goes something like this:
5% fee for local returns
10% fee for used purchased returns
20% fee for new purchased returns
30% fee for custom returns

Plug "n" Play has always been iffy. Sure it will work when plugged in but it seems glitches always surface in actual use.

John

Thanks John for further defining spoon banging. The illustration of a wedding helps me get the language origins.

Just wondering... when you said this, guessing you are referring to Super Rectifiers?: "Plug "n" Play has always been iffy. Sure it will work when plugged in but it seems glitches always surface in actual use." and if so, I wonder if you might be up for expanding, or pointing us to links to fill this thought out?

Thanks,

Will

JBzen As I stated before I believe the Cave man should stay in his cave, what a wanker to demo gear with MP3 and Bluetooth playback. He even said he was too lazy to hook up his system correctly for the demo. Not one other YT exspert (EX=HAS BEEN, SPURT = BIG DRIP) is flogging this esoteric gear. But it has been amusing listening to you guys Babylon about it.

I think Steve’s pretty smart not to get involved in a thread like this about another manufactures work, It isn’t good business really to talk badly about a product, that just creates a lot of noise that doesn’t clarify anything. There’s enough of that on the forums all over the internet and I’ve never seen anything good come out of it. Hell these days even the critics and the reviewer‘s do not want to speak badly about somebody else’s work, they’re afraid they won’t get that advertising dollar. That’s why so many units designs get ignored by the press and you won’t see a review telling you that something is snake oil or just bad design.

Another interesting thing about Space-Tech is that if you look at their photos of the place itself. . . no treated rooms are shown. So it begs the question: do they know how their components sound in one? And it also is intriguing to me in that I have never been able to have a treated room and probably never will, so perhaps components designed and perhaps voiced without one might have a significance in my listening experience. (But I'm not interested in trying out one of their amps or preamps--I'm fully set up with Decware in that regards, and though I'm curious about a good 300B amp it's the Sarah I will try. . . first and probably be floored by it).

I did think about it. I've been around here a long time and think I know a bit about the guy. I don't think he would give an uneducated opinion about it, but he sure does like to hype some other companies products (such as Lil and Wathen) that he's tried, and poo poo'd a few, and all I would really expect him to elucidate is compatibility with his rectifier based components and possible sonic effects.

I'm glad you and Joe can speak for both Steve and Space-Tech so freely. I wouldn't expect him to comment blind. Said so. I do think he could read all the info on Space-Tech and might venture a guarded opinion about compatibility. One poster here has proposed sending him one of the Super Rectifiers. He may well comment then if that is the case.

Whatever.  

Oh. LOL.

NO comment.

tempest62 wrote on 09/06/22 at 14:06:30:

DUH. I never stated I expected otherwise.