It’s getting hard to focus on external tube rectification and it’s potential benefits with the tangential debate on cryogenics.  Would love to hear from folks like Earthbound who end up buying an external rectification unit.  It would also be interesting to hear Steve’s take on it.

Joe, while I respect your and Brent Jesse’s opinion, perhaps it’s time to just move on?  Our community is big enough to accommodate both who believe and don’t believe in cryo and there is no need for either party to go out of their respective ways to denigrate the other party for their views.  You’ve said your peace (and then some).  For the good of the group (and this thread), let’s call it a night.

Kamran

So, we got this external tube rectifier introducing noise to a well tuned amplifier(Decware)!

Just don't jive IMHO!

Capacitors are inherent of creating noise in amplifiers. Think of the noise static electricity creates when discharged between a finger and door knob...ouch! Thats what happens inside a capacitor. So the ETR adds more...

Extending the socket of the targeted amp with an umbilical cord creates resistance and limits current to a degree that was not present in the amp prior insertion of the ETR.

MP3's compromise media. A caveman is beating bones over improvement of sound while listing to compromised media!

I think ear fatigue will set in after haphazardly inserting a ETR in my system.

I pass.

John

I love to see arguments about sh#t when nobody posting has any direct listening experience with an audio product. Really this is just arguing for the expressed purpose of arguing. Come on forum members, let's step up our game and share helpful information to each other. Get a grip folks!

HK

ditto

It is nice to watch a good argument that doesn't degrade into a name calling contest.

Everyone acted pretty much as a adult and I didn't have the need to step in and break things up.

Nothing political, no one called anyone a idiot or took potshots.

See different opinions can be displayed here with no bloodletting.

Donnie

Donnie said:  “It is nice to watch a good argument that doesn't degrade into a name calling contest.”

I got called a “flatearther”, which is no big deal.  Of real concern is how he knew.

Quote:


What cap makes noise through a speaker in an audio system?

The umbilical is far too short to cause any ill effects related to resistance. Actually the impedance of the rectifier itself is a few thousands fold over that of the umbilical.

Brad

I don't really disagree with you--I wouldn't try one of these without Steve's input on the component. But I think I have a little more intuitive faith in this product. .. I think it could potentially produce a better result than a thirty dollar rectifier in the right component.

I would like to note that the 30% restocking fee is only for custom orders, other restocking fees are 10% and 20%. One big consideration is that postage from the US to Canada and from Canada to the US is HIGH. Really hign.

Well that's good to know. My last mailings to and from Canada a year or so ago were awful damned expensive.

Interested in hearing your impressions of the amp.

JBzen and Brad,

You guys lost me on the spoon bang gang thing... Can you educate me on what this means... sorry, I don't get out much

JBzen,

Am I correct that you like a "purist" approach...tending not to wanting more things, even very transparent things in your paths. If so I get it, especially in theory, and if all else is equal in design, parts, wires, and cables.... But on the other hand, if it is all really good stuff to start with, in my case with Steve's "signature" sound considerations unifying them, my experience is that it is easier to add things of the same basic style. And these pre-stages being generally pretty transparent, while offering different enhancements from the designs, I like how they can compliment each other and the amp. Once tuned carefully with great tubes and all, individually and together, for me the improvements to musicality can easily outweigh the losses, liking the "improvements" enough that I have to  listen for the subtle losses from more things in the path. That said, I do have really good power now, super good cables throughout, pay attention to vibration tuning, etc, so a lot of impediments to un-smeared and translucent sound are taken care of along with careful tube tuning, and later, modifications.

And with successful modifications throughout, the same easy integration tends to happen for me, but with increased transparency, natural immediacy, realistic dynamics, clearer space and harmonic complexity, etc. Time and time again, adding the CSP3 or ZRock or ZBIT, I can improve my Torii sound. And as this progression unfolds, though subtle minor losses remain, I have to listen harder to hear them.

A fun part, each progressive longer dive into one component always reveals ways to improve the others, taking the sound of all the rest further yet, and creating some new references to improve the others from.

The other side though.... I had not gotten a new component in a long time, and got a used ZRock2 with only the tube mod. After hearing it with everything else modified pretty successfully, I would not have been able to keep it had I not been into modifications... it was compelling and cool, but just not up with the rest in their post stock or 25th mod states... Compared to the rest, it was a little slow and masked.... illustrating how even with nice designs, context matters when adding things.

So I set out to bring the ZRock into equilibrium with the rest, and pretty much needed to do all I did on the others to get there, all changes arrived at by sound tests... extra good connectors and wires/cables, resistor and cap tuning/refining, really careful bypass tuning, and in this case, output caps on the EQ board. And having focussed on it for months, it got me wanting to bring the Torii up some more to catch up with the ZRock's enhanced traits. The "new" ZRock engaged, more density without thickness or weighting the balances too much toward bass, complex harmonics with more complete space and fine detail throughout...definitely having a ZRock flavor, but what got my attention as much was how improving it taught me how the super tuned Torii could improve.

So lately, I am running my Torii with only a ZBIT between it and DAC, and the Torii seeming about right now, this thread stimulated me to test this setup with and without my the seriously modified ZRock2.

After the ZRock revealed it, the biggest thing the Torii lacked in comparison was very fine detail and space that the ZRock in this state helped pull. But I am always listening to the whole and the many balances, so also had my attention on more refined speed balances, open density, and richer complexity throughout, less smearing supporting it all. Consistently I find cap combos (base and bypass layers, power and coupling) are instrumental in bringing in the finer tonal nuances and finer detail and space, potentially contributing greater resolution, and associated, increased density also if needed. These can be adjusted with the right little caps and/or layers of caps... like more resolution with less apparent density and more space, or more resolution with more apparent density (or warmth, or space, shimmer, body, etc). And tuned well, finer detail, space, and density can carry throughout the spectrum, just from the right choices of these (added) little bypass combos. Though generally the case that smaller decent caps can help bigger bypasses do better, a lot of seemingly decent caps do not work as well as I like for this. But the right combos of the right caps promote a more authentic musical presentation everywhere, all the finer nuances of refining speed, space and resolution improving bass density with complexity, more timbral completeness, more resolved bass attacks and decays, clearer representation and differentiation between the kick drum and string bass notes... and same with mids and highs when all is right.

Anyway, an interesting trip lately having brought the Torii up to new levels based on insufficiencies the ZRock work revealed. And turning on the ZRock, I love it, or without, I love it. When on, richer resolution, but now more difficult to distinguish after the Torii tune up... but listening to whole records and getting reacquainted, its magic is there, more dense without thickness, more "analog" smooth with loads of fine detail, more natural immediacy and dynamics, more refined detail complexity and articulation along with more bass boldness and articulation. And after a while of adapting, it got more magical...just realer with a touching sweetness, not colored, but sweeter. With the "new" Torii, each of the ZRock's individual sonic area's additions and support  were relatively subtly, but they added up in the experience, end results much greater than the sum of the individual improvements. When I listen carefully for issues related to more parts in the paths, I can still hear it slightly in some aspects of the sound, things a little more concentrated making a little less complex space between the finest details. But with the added harmonic sweetness shifting toward the mids a little as a result of the greater density and a little stronger bass in the balance, the space feels more solid and empty too while the ZRock enhances the whole in its particular ways.

It is always surprising to me how much further "great" can go as I learn the tools better, and learn to discern sonic traits better. So I guess all this is relative, everything depending on all else. And I suppose I could call myself a purist, the purity and completeness of the musical experience the bottom line, but I get it in part with refined complexity.


On another note, I don't understand how one can say without looking inside and listening that the STR Super Rectifiers would be no better than using better rectifiers. Possible I suppose, but if this designer is as serious as he sounds like he is, and as straight forward and honest as his emails imply, I doubt it is no better than changing rectifiers. And if my supposition is real, and we like his style, I still think it could potentially be enlivening, even with my super tuned power supplies. Maybe...

I am starting to more seriously consider getting one myself to test, and in hopes of helping to clear up all this speculation. The idea of the influences of an 805 or 845, etc, with purported increases in all the other good things from the circuit design, it is compelling to me, and I could get the lowest level model and use it on the CSP3. But then, for some true believers in "purist" simplicity, I guess my explorations and interpretations may not be believable anyway, so would my opinions on this thing matter in this thread...maybe to some.

Yes those tubes seem like they could offer compelling flavors to our sounds, especially with the support of the circuit being a big player in the effects Al seems to seek.

Thanks Brad for the colorful and notably aggressive definition of spoon gang clanging... still not self evident to me by the language, but I don't hang out on political, or the social sites, or watch TV, or wherever one learns these things. I at least understand now what it means though, so thanks.

I prefer civil discourse over amped up aggression myself...aggression generally cultivating aggression, and a lot of energy that could have gone into real learning spent on reactivity back and forth to aggression, making solving problems or helping each other difficult or impossible. I see no political evangelical benefit in it either, in part for these reasons, and in part because our political/media machines have cultured polarization for so many decades, that fear, frustration, anger, hatred and aggression are now systemic.... which cultivates self-fulfilling polarization!

Guess that probably makes me a spoon-gang guy huh?

Running to the moderator and complaining? I would guess this is perhaps not real for most of us, Donnie likely paying attention to threads where known politicized aggression might possibly develop and try to chill it before it blossoms.... hoping to mitigate what to me is as much a vehicle for discrediting or picking unproductive fights as anything. My thoughts anyway.

Will,

Certainly you are not part of the spoon bang gang in this thread. Quite the opposite. Think of a wedding reception where we pick up a spoon and bang on china requesting a romantic response from the just married couple. Apply that to this thread where noise was created, as I took it, "to put out or shut up" eliciting a response from the moderator. A form of censorship that this forum was never about.

Brad's idea of inserting the SR into a CSP3 is a good one. Groovysauce's though of physically adding yet another piece of hardware to the system is valid. CAJames unraveling the mystery that might be in the box is interesting and thought provoking. Just a few examples of ideas and speculation without ownership. Who would have thought of those with censorship.

You sir are very articulate in your writings with painstaking detail. The pics of your work parallels your writings. I, as you are open minded and willing to readily admit mistakes as we learn. When you have time to organize your tweaks and post, my eyes will be eager to absorb those.

Space Techs return policy goes something like this:
5% fee for local returns
10% fee for used purchased returns
20% fee for new purchased returns
30% fee for custom returns

Plug "n" Play has always been iffy. Sure it will work when plugged in but it seems glitches always surface in actual use.

John

Thanks John for further defining spoon banging. The illustration of a wedding helps me get the language origins.

Just wondering... when you said this, guessing you are referring to Super Rectifiers?: "Plug "n" Play has always been iffy. Sure it will work when plugged in but it seems glitches always surface in actual use." and if so, I wonder if you might be up for expanding, or pointing us to links to fill this thought out?

Thanks,

Will

JBzen As I stated before I believe the Cave man should stay in his cave, what a wanker to demo gear with MP3 and Bluetooth playback. He even said he was too lazy to hook up his system correctly for the demo. Not one other YT exspert (EX=HAS BEEN, SPURT = BIG DRIP) is flogging this esoteric gear. But it has been amusing listening to you guys Babylon about it.

I think Steve’s pretty smart not to get involved in a thread like this about another manufactures work, It isn’t good business really to talk badly about a product, that just creates a lot of noise that doesn’t clarify anything. There’s enough of that on the forums all over the internet and I’ve never seen anything good come out of it. Hell these days even the critics and the reviewer‘s do not want to speak badly about somebody else’s work, they’re afraid they won’t get that advertising dollar. That’s why so many units designs get ignored by the press and you won’t see a review telling you that something is snake oil or just bad design.

Another interesting thing about Space-Tech is that if you look at their photos of the place itself. . . no treated rooms are shown. So it begs the question: do they know how their components sound in one? And it also is intriguing to me in that I have never been able to have a treated room and probably never will, so perhaps components designed and perhaps voiced without one might have a significance in my listening experience. (But I'm not interested in trying out one of their amps or preamps--I'm fully set up with Decware in that regards, and though I'm curious about a good 300B amp it's the Sarah I will try. . . first and probably be floored by it).

I did think about it. I've been around here a long time and think I know a bit about the guy. I don't think he would give an uneducated opinion about it, but he sure does like to hype some other companies products (such as Lil and Wathen) that he's tried, and poo poo'd a few, and all I would really expect him to elucidate is compatibility with his rectifier based components and possible sonic effects.

I'm glad you and Joe can speak for both Steve and Space-Tech so freely. I wouldn't expect him to comment blind. Said so. I do think he could read all the info on Space-Tech and might venture a guarded opinion about compatibility. One poster here has proposed sending him one of the Super Rectifiers. He may well comment then if that is the case.

Whatever.  

Oh. LOL.

NO comment.

tempest62 wrote on 09/06/22 at 14:06:30:

DUH. I never stated I expected otherwise.

I'm well aware. I posted because you replied to my post. I decided to reply. I'll go back to deciding not to.

Awesome CA--keep us posted as this amp seasons.

I've had my 300B amp for about a week and half now. I've got over a hundred hours on my "hundred buck" 300B tubes and rolled through a fair number of input tubes. My plan had been to listen exclusively to the 300B amp for 2 weeks and then go back to my UFOs for comparison, but I couldn't wait. So this morning fired them up, with my favorite TFK PCC189 input tube, and the comparison is fascinating.

The TL;DR is they are both outstanding amps, and the sound is similar in some ways but different enough in others that I'd have a hard time choosing which one I like better (more on that below). And, for the purposes of this thread IMO Space-tech is the real deal and if you are interested in any of their stuff I would not hesitate to contact them with questions.

Re: comparisons; the Space-tech amp definitely has juicier low frequencies. It doesn't go lower than the UFOs, but there is more energy in the lower octaves, and the bass is extremely tight. No flab. The UFOs have more high end air and transparency.  Both amps have a big sound stage beyond the speakers and floor to ceiling, but with the 300B the images are bigger, and feel more solid. Perhaps this is what posters mean by "density" which is something I never really understood. The UFOs have better depth front to back, but it my room that isn't going to be great even best case. They both have that elusive tube yumminess, if anything the 300B amp errs on the side of too much, and is missing a tiny bit of detail compared to Decware.

Back to me, I'm not really sure where to go from here. I never considered being a "2 amp guy" and I bought the 300B amp (and relatively cheap 300B tubes) with pretty low expectations, because I've always been #300Bcurious, the balanced input circuit was interesting and it used 6SN7 tubes for input and I have a bunch of options for those. I figured the amp was cheap enough I could play around with it for a while and then sell it. But now I'm thinking about "WTF expensive" 300B tubes and holding on to it for the long term. But I have a pair of UFO25s sitting at 514 on the wait list and I really want them too. This is certainly a good "problem" to have, I guess I just need to live with the amp some more, and maybe get some therapy.

Thanks for sharing CAJames.  Similar to Lon, your experience also makes me even more curious (and anxious) to hear Sarah at Decfest.