Welcome, Guest. Please Login or Register
Decware Audio Forums
09/27/22 at 05:51:31




Pages: 1
Send Topic Print
ZC10M or ZF15M? (Read 1806 times)
Beerfab
Verified Member
**




Posts: 48
ZC10M or ZF15M?
03/22/22 at 16:44:15
 
Any thoughts on preferences?  I am thinking of building a set of the ZF15M but now wondering about the 10"  the curve does look really great.  I have a Decware Rachel amp.
Back to top
 
 
  IP Logged
hallcon83
Verified Member
**




Posts: 16
Re: ZC10M or ZF15M?
Reply #1 - 04/09/22 at 12:37:41
 
- Hi , I am a new member here I just recently received my SE84UFO Amplifier and need new speakers , and I have the same questions. - It's hard to decide on which way to go without hearing both of them, when I listen to the speaker demos that Steve has down loaded , the speakers sound to hot thru my computer - (to much treble) - so it makes the choice difficult... the ZC10M is a lot bigger investment because I want to use it on an Open baffle and would need to add a woofer to it for the bass I'm looking for , which also means another amp for that woofer - etc. ....

- It would sure
be nice if some people would stop by here who have heard both to give their opinions.....
Back to top
 
 
  IP Logged
Geno
Seasoned Member
****


Without music, life
would be a mistake.

Posts: 1695
Re: ZC10M or ZF15M?
Reply #2 - 04/09/22 at 17:18:57
 
To my knowledge, on this forum, the only one who has had both in their lineup is Palomino. You can PM him and ask his opinion, unless he weighs in here. Oh, and of course, Caintuck Randy is another one you can consult with.

I can say that I love my C10s coupled with two W-15s. But I have never heard the F15s. The C10s require bass supplementation, but whether you would need one or two W-15s, depends on your room and personal preference. And you would also need a subwoofer amp, so this route is much more expensive than using the F-15s.

Or, I remember reading that Steve said that a ZRock pairs nicely with the C10s.

And something new that I read the other day on a different forum, is that Lii just started using a different magnet with the F-15s that they think make a pretty nice improvement - so that is something else to consider. Decisions, Decisions!!!

Good luck!

Geno
Back to top
 
 

SE84UFO + (SE84UFO on order) OR Sansui AU-222,AU-505,800,210
Cambr.Aud.CXN (ModWright) Cambr.Aud.CXC ZBIT
Technics SL-1210MK5 (KAB Mods)w/ Soundsm Aida MKll
Soundsm MMP3 phono pre
Otari MX5050 R2R
ZLC Pwr Cond
Lii Crystal 10 & W-15 in Open Baffles
  IP Logged
hallcon83
Verified Member
**




Posts: 16
Re: ZC10M or ZF15M?
Reply #3 - 04/10/22 at 00:44:35
 
-  Hi Geno, Thank you for the help and suggestions,  I will try to get in touch with palomino.

- Of coarse they would have to go and make the F15 better - LOL ... I guess we are lucky to have a choice of such
great drivers -  :)  

Best regards , Dean
Back to top
 
 
  IP Logged
hallcon83
Verified Member
**




Posts: 16
Re: ZC10M or ZF15M?
Reply #4 - 04/12/22 at 03:02:15
 
-  Hi Beerfab , per Geno's recommendation I sent a Personal Message to Palomino asking about the different drivers and I thought I would post his reply here so you can read it too -


--  Sender: Palomino

To: hallcon83

Subject: Re: Need advice on speakers please

Date: Yesterday at 17:18:36

--  Its been a while since I heard both sets of speakers.  I loaned the F15s to a friend before covid and haven't seen them since!

That said, I should tell you what I have for my C10 speakers now.  They have evolved a bit in recent years.

The Crystal 10s are in a Baltic birch rectangular open baffle along with Acoustic Elegance LO15 full range drivers.  I have also added an upfiring tweeter on each baffle and a sub.  Basically the tweeters provide some air, the C10s go from around 15Khz to about 160 Hz, then the LO15s go to about 30 Hz and the sub covers the low end.

In my opinion the C10 based speakers need low end augmentation.  The F15 baffles can use some as well but not as much as the C10s.  I know Steve add a piece of hardware to up the low end on his C10 based baffles and it helps, but still left me wanting for more bass.  I can listen to the F15 and the bass that's there is very tight and detailed/musical.

Back before I added the tweeter and sub, a friend described the difference between the two speakers as the C10s were more "audiophile" and the F15 baffles as more "hi-fi".  Basically, the F15 are more forgiving.  The C10s are more detailed.  Both produce a great soundstage although the F15s soundstage is bigger.  Both image well.

I was never fatigued with the F15 after hours of listening.  I have experienced some fatigue with the C10s, but only after extended listening.

If I ever get the F15s back from my friend, I will be tempted to try them with the up firing tweeters to give them a little more sparkle in the high end.

As you can see in my current C10 description, I think they need more to augment them overall.  After all my tweaking, I prefer them to the F15s. The F15 are more - out of the box - ready.

Hope this rambling response helps.

i7 Mac Mini with LPSU/SSD running Audirvana 3.5, Uptone Audio Regen on LPSU, Mytek Brooklyn DAC+, Ven Haus DIY Silver ICs, 25th Anniversary Zen, PS Audio P5 Power Supply, PS Audio Power Cords, Zen Styx Speaker Wire, DIY Big Betsy and Crystal 10 Open Baffle Speaker
Back to top
 
 
  IP Logged
Geno
Seasoned Member
****


Without music, life
would be a mistake.

Posts: 1695
Re: ZC10M or ZF15M?
Reply #5 - 04/12/22 at 19:07:08
 
Great detailed response from Palomino!

Get in touch with Mr. Randy at Caintuck Audio too. He sells both of these, and can give an evaluation also.

His user name here is Randy in Caintuck.

Best,

Geno
Back to top
 
 

SE84UFO + (SE84UFO on order) OR Sansui AU-222,AU-505,800,210
Cambr.Aud.CXN (ModWright) Cambr.Aud.CXC ZBIT
Technics SL-1210MK5 (KAB Mods)w/ Soundsm Aida MKll
Soundsm MMP3 phono pre
Otari MX5050 R2R
ZLC Pwr Cond
Lii Crystal 10 & W-15 in Open Baffles
  IP Logged
jec3504
Seasoned Member
****


I'm on the live and
learn program.

Posts: 361
Re: ZC10M or ZF15M?
Reply #6 - 04/12/22 at 22:18:48
 
Wow that was an excellent response from Palomino!

Geno, Have you replaced your binding post on your LII audio drivers?

Thanks,

jec3504
Back to top
 
 

Waiting for ZRock2-25th
Pi4 Bifrost2/64 Freya+
2 Aegir ,Torii MK 5-25th
RP600M F-15 W-15
  IP Logged
hallcon83
Verified Member
**




Posts: 16
Re: ZC10M or ZF15M?
Reply #7 - 04/26/22 at 12:31:03
 
Hi all , does anyone know what Up-firing Tweeters Palomino is using for his Crystal 10's or Silver 10's?

- or have any suggestions??

- Thanks!
Back to top
 
 
  IP Logged
Geno
Seasoned Member
****


Without music, life
would be a mistake.

Posts: 1695
Re: ZC10M or ZF15M?
Reply #8 - 04/26/22 at 15:28:35
 
jec,

Sorry, but I did not see your question. No, I did not replace the binding posts on my drivers. I don't remember why folks were repacing them, but I've never had an issue with mine.


hallcon,

I don't know what super tweeters Palomino is using, but that is definitely something that I've been wanting to try. I've read several times that it can really add sparkle to the top end.

Best,

Geno
Back to top
 
 

SE84UFO + (SE84UFO on order) OR Sansui AU-222,AU-505,800,210
Cambr.Aud.CXN (ModWright) Cambr.Aud.CXC ZBIT
Technics SL-1210MK5 (KAB Mods)w/ Soundsm Aida MKll
Soundsm MMP3 phono pre
Otari MX5050 R2R
ZLC Pwr Cond
Lii Crystal 10 & W-15 in Open Baffles
  IP Logged
Archie
Seasoned Member
****




Posts: 2731
Re: ZC10M or ZF15M?
Reply #9 - 04/26/22 at 17:05:18
 
I am one who replaced the binding posts on my F15s.  I thought the factory posts were cheesy and made poor contact with my solid bare 14 gage wire.  I used solid copper Cardas posts and copper bananas on my wires.  The process was tedious and I wish that Lii Audio would use better posts on the speakers to begin with.
Back to top
 
 

ZLC
Technics 1200G TT w/ Ortofon Jubilee MC cart
ZMC1
ZP3 (25th A Mods)
ZR2 (25th A Mods)
CSP3 (25th A mods)
ZMA (25th A mods)
Homemade Big Betsy Speakers (F15s)
Silver Cabling
DIY Isolation platforms under amps & TT.
  IP Logged
Geno
Seasoned Member
****


Without music, life
would be a mistake.

Posts: 1695
Re: ZC10M or ZF15M?
Reply #10 - 04/26/22 at 20:45:37
 
Archie,

I remember now. For some reason, they skimped on the F-15 terminals, and some of the other models lower in the line. An effort to keep costs down?

The Crystals have better terminals, but my W-15's have the cheaper ones.

Best,

Geno
Back to top
 
 

SE84UFO + (SE84UFO on order) OR Sansui AU-222,AU-505,800,210
Cambr.Aud.CXN (ModWright) Cambr.Aud.CXC ZBIT
Technics SL-1210MK5 (KAB Mods)w/ Soundsm Aida MKll
Soundsm MMP3 phono pre
Otari MX5050 R2R
ZLC Pwr Cond
Lii Crystal 10 & W-15 in Open Baffles
  IP Logged
hallcon83
Verified Member
**




Posts: 16
Re: ZC10M or ZF15M?
Reply #11 - 04/26/22 at 22:57:13
 
Hi Archie ,

-  Can you let us know what you had to do to replace your posts?



- I would like to do the same,


- Thank you , Dean
Back to top
 
 
  IP Logged
Archie
Seasoned Member
****




Posts: 2731
Re: ZC10M or ZF15M?
Reply #12 - 04/27/22 at 00:04:58
 
Besides the desoldering and resoldering I had to drill out the mounting holes since the new posts were much bigger in diameter.  I then had to wrap them with electrical tape so they wouldn't short out on the metal frame.  There wasn't enough meat to drill large enough holes to use the supplied insulation sleeving.
Back to top
 

IMG_2762a.jpg

ZLC
Technics 1200G TT w/ Ortofon Jubilee MC cart
ZMC1
ZP3 (25th A Mods)
ZR2 (25th A Mods)
CSP3 (25th A mods)
ZMA (25th A mods)
Homemade Big Betsy Speakers (F15s)
Silver Cabling
DIY Isolation platforms under amps & TT.
  IP Logged
jec3504
Seasoned Member
****


I'm on the live and
learn program.

Posts: 361
Re: ZC10M or ZF15M?
Reply #13 - 04/27/22 at 00:22:35
 
Geno,

No problem thank you sir.



Archie,


Should have know it was you. Been working on my test baffles now that the weather here is decent. Was thinking about upgrading the post since my F15's are in the boxes. Added a W15 with a plate amp. Think I might skip that upgrade for now. Amp should be here soon. Frame for my T-shirt is ready.


Thank you gentlemen
Back to top
 
 

Waiting for ZRock2-25th
Pi4 Bifrost2/64 Freya+
2 Aegir ,Torii MK 5-25th
RP600M F-15 W-15
  IP Logged
Archie
Seasoned Member
****




Posts: 2731
Re: ZC10M or ZF15M?
Reply #14 - 04/27/22 at 00:33:53
 
jec,

I'd be nervous doing the work without the drivers in a vertical position. So many opportunities to damage the cones with solder or dropping stuff on them. As it is, I felt uncomfortably close to the paper.
Back to top
 
 

ZLC
Technics 1200G TT w/ Ortofon Jubilee MC cart
ZMC1
ZP3 (25th A Mods)
ZR2 (25th A Mods)
CSP3 (25th A mods)
ZMA (25th A mods)
Homemade Big Betsy Speakers (F15s)
Silver Cabling
DIY Isolation platforms under amps & TT.
  IP Logged
jec3504
Seasoned Member
****


I'm on the live and
learn program.

Posts: 361
Re: ZC10M or ZF15M?
Reply #15 - 04/27/22 at 00:49:18
 
Thanks Archie, very good advice. My plate is getting full and i'm not getting any younger. That project is on the list toward the bottom.

Back to top
 
 

Waiting for ZRock2-25th
Pi4 Bifrost2/64 Freya+
2 Aegir ,Torii MK 5-25th
RP600M F-15 W-15
  IP Logged
hallcon83
Verified Member
**




Posts: 16
Re: ZC10M or ZF15M?
Reply #16 - 05/01/22 at 08:52:56
 
-  Hi Everyone, I sent a message to Palomino asking about the tweeters he used on his Open Baffles,


- I received his reply and thought I would post his response for anyone else that was interested -  :)


-------------------------

Palomino

-  " I think they are Vifa , now Peerless BC25SC08-04 , but I'd have to look at them to know for sure (I'm out of town).  They came to me as part of a bundle of drivers and I was only interested in a couple of them, but kept the tweeters lying around just in case I needed them.  

I got the idea from the fellow who designs OBs for Lii Audio drivers (Leon?) and also from Steve's "eggs" if you remember when he built those prototypes.  I want to say the cap is a Clarity cap 3.3uf.  I pulled it when I upgraded my capacitors in my DM945 clones.

I did it just for the heck of it, but thought they added some air and later added the suspended balls above the tweeter for better dispersion.  I felt they were too directly firing into my ceiling."



----  

Best regards, Dean
Back to top
 
 
  IP Logged
jec3504
Seasoned Member
****


I'm on the live and
learn program.

Posts: 361
Re: ZC10M or ZF15M?
Reply #17 - 05/02/22 at 23:26:24
 
hallcon83,

Thanks for the info.
Back to top
 
 

Waiting for ZRock2-25th
Pi4 Bifrost2/64 Freya+
2 Aegir ,Torii MK 5-25th
RP600M F-15 W-15
  IP Logged
jec3504
Seasoned Member
****


I'm on the live and
learn program.

Posts: 361
Re: ZC10M or ZF15M?
Reply #18 - 05/30/22 at 15:01:38
 
Hi Geno,

Did the Lii Audio Silver-10's replace the C-10's?

Here are my test baffle all in around $1000. They are eventually heading to the north woods with my Schiit Audio system. Must say the F-15's play nice with my 6SN7 pre amp. The W-15 is powered by a plate amp. The finish will match their new home. Going to get serious and build some real baffles once I come up with a good plan and pick the drivers.

Back to top
 
 

Waiting for ZRock2-25th
Pi4 Bifrost2/64 Freya+
2 Aegir ,Torii MK 5-25th
RP600M F-15 W-15
  IP Logged
jec3504
Seasoned Member
****


I'm on the live and
learn program.

Posts: 361
Re: ZC10M or ZF15M?
Reply #19 - 05/30/22 at 16:12:42
 
Archie,

Put a little more weight in the back



Back to top
 
 

Waiting for ZRock2-25th
Pi4 Bifrost2/64 Freya+
2 Aegir ,Torii MK 5-25th
RP600M F-15 W-15
  IP Logged
Archie
Seasoned Member
****




Posts: 2731
Re: ZC10M or ZF15M?
Reply #20 - 05/30/22 at 16:29:49
 
Beefy!  My base has a different design so I added "shot boxes" which both stiffen the baffle and ad mass (25# lead each).

Back to top
 

IMG_2741_a_002.jpg

ZLC
Technics 1200G TT w/ Ortofon Jubilee MC cart
ZMC1
ZP3 (25th A Mods)
ZR2 (25th A Mods)
CSP3 (25th A mods)
ZMA (25th A mods)
Homemade Big Betsy Speakers (F15s)
Silver Cabling
DIY Isolation platforms under amps & TT.
  IP Logged
jec3504
Seasoned Member
****


I'm on the live and
learn program.

Posts: 361
Re: ZC10M or ZF15M?
Reply #21 - 05/30/22 at 16:38:18
 
Might have to borrow your base design. Hope you don't mind.  :)
Back to top
 
 

Waiting for ZRock2-25th
Pi4 Bifrost2/64 Freya+
2 Aegir ,Torii MK 5-25th
RP600M F-15 W-15
  IP Logged
Geno
Seasoned Member
****


Without music, life
would be a mistake.

Posts: 1695
Re: ZC10M or ZF15M?
Reply #22 - 05/30/22 at 17:39:13
 
Quote:
Hi Geno,

Did the Lii Audio Silver-10's replace the C-10's?


I must admit that I wanted to try the Silver 10s when they were introduced. But Im really happy with what I have now, so it will remain as is. Continues to put a smile on my face Smiley

I like your design. Love the rustic look. How do they sound?

By the way, I followed Archies lead on the lead shot. His box is a cool design. I wasnt that original - I just have the bags of shot on top of my bases.

Archie, I forgot about the brass weights on the back of your baffles. I remember yours and Steves postings about using them. Can you shed some light on their weight and determined locations, as well as the effect?

Thanks,

Geno
Back to top
 
 

SE84UFO + (SE84UFO on order) OR Sansui AU-222,AU-505,800,210
Cambr.Aud.CXN (ModWright) Cambr.Aud.CXC ZBIT
Technics SL-1210MK5 (KAB Mods)w/ Soundsm Aida MKll
Soundsm MMP3 phono pre
Otari MX5050 R2R
ZLC Pwr Cond
Lii Crystal 10 & W-15 in Open Baffles
  IP Logged
Archie
Seasoned Member
****




Posts: 2731
Re: ZC10M or ZF15M?
Reply #23 - 05/30/22 at 18:49:05
 
Geno,

From memory, the weights are around 3+lbs each and I placed them using a "3/5ths rule" that I pulled off a video on flat panel speakers. I posted in more detail in the original Big Betsy thread.

As far as sound? I can't really say. They aren't the kind of thing you can take on and off since they are screwed tight and not movable without lots of extra holes in the back. The idea was to break up resonance in the baffle. I didn't notice anything but they look kind of cool. I suppose that there may be some odd times when the baffle could resonate and the weights break that up but my guess is that it'd be rare. Of course, the point of placing the driver above the centerline is also an attempt at breaking up symmetry caused resonance as well. I took that on faith. The constrained lower baffle edge compared to the top already causes a lack of symmetry even with the driver centered. By this logic, the driver should also be offset left to right.

Basically for me, Randy did a lot of playing with baffle shape and driver location and since Steve was content to simply scale up Randy's Betsy baffle, I just went along. Even my weights were a result of Steve's "vision." lol
Back to top
 
 

ZLC
Technics 1200G TT w/ Ortofon Jubilee MC cart
ZMC1
ZP3 (25th A Mods)
ZR2 (25th A Mods)
CSP3 (25th A mods)
ZMA (25th A mods)
Homemade Big Betsy Speakers (F15s)
Silver Cabling
DIY Isolation platforms under amps & TT.
  IP Logged
jec3504
Seasoned Member
****


I'm on the live and
learn program.

Posts: 361
Re: ZC10M or ZF15M?
Reply #24 - 05/31/22 at 01:04:28
 
Geno,

They sound GREAT!. The question is how will they sound with a MK5. They are staying with my 1st system forever. Really want to mock up some Silver 10's and give them a rip. Time will tell. Think I'm at a point where having my Decware amp would really help out. Palomino response to hallcon83 was fantastic . Time will tell. Feels like I'm on the right path. Thanks for everyone's help!

Joseph
Back to top
 
 

Waiting for ZRock2-25th
Pi4 Bifrost2/64 Freya+
2 Aegir ,Torii MK 5-25th
RP600M F-15 W-15
  IP Logged
Pages: 1
Send Topic Print