Welcome, Guest. Please Login or Register
Decware Audio Forums
07/02/22 at 19:10:54 




Pages: 1 ... 3 4 5 6 
Send Topic Print
CYROTONE Tubes by Don Thomas - New Video (Read 13692 times)
Lin
Ex Member



Re:  CYROTONE Tubes by Don Thomas - New Video
Reply #200 - 06/05/22 at 03:04:01
 
Donnie wrote on 06/05/22 at 02:46:46:
Then the first thing that happens is that the metal inside the tube heats up hot enough to glow and undoes everything that the cryo process does.

Sorry folks this is really simple to understand if you think about it.


First sensible post I have read in this thread. Smiley
Back to top
 
 
  IP Logged
Donnie
Global Moderator
*****


Why does it hurt
when I pee?

Posts: 2054
Re:  CYROTONE Tubes by Don Thomas - New Video
Reply #201 - 06/05/22 at 03:37:35
 
CAJames wrote on 06/05/22 at 02:53:59:
Its only a small part of the tube (the cathode) that gets red hot, and it most does chemistry (cooking electrons off the cathode coating) not really "electronics." The rest of the tube guts: the plate and the grids and the connecting wires don't get nearly that hot. Presumably that is where whatever magic the cryo treatment does happens.




Ok, going with that logic, wouldn't make more sense to cryo the whole amp? Far more wires and assorted other metallic items inside of a amp for this magic to work on.

Sorry, looking at this from a logical point of view blows holes in the logic behind it.
Back to top
 
 

Owner of the infamous RED TORII and Dan the Redheaded Amp
  IP Logged
JOMAN
Seasoned Member
****




Posts: 579
Re:  CYROTONE Tubes by Don Thomas - New Video
Reply #202 - 06/05/22 at 03:55:58
 
That's exactly what doesn't happen.  

The only way to undo cryogenic treatment is to take the metal to the "critical temperature of the metal" in question.  The lower critical temperature is defined as the point at which phase change of any substance occurs.  The lower critical temperature of all steels is 723 deg, C or 1,333.4 degrees F.,  for comparison carbon steel is hardened at 800 - 900 deg C or 1,400 - 1,652 deg F

So so lets think about this as you suggest...

All tubes have a maximum operating temperature.  To find out what the maximum temperature that a tube is designed to operate at simply look up the data sheets.  

The data sheet for a GEC KT88 shows the maximum design temperature as 250 deg C or 482 deg F.  A vacuum tube plate or anode that glows red is overheating and experiencing overload conditions.  The heater glows but not the plate.  I doubt that any of us have components in which the and glows.  If we did what would we do???

The lower critical temperature of metal is 1,333.4 deg F. and the maximum operating temperature of this specific KT88 is 482 deg F.  Well below the point at which the cryogenic process would be compromised.


Back to top
 
 
  IP Logged
Steve Deckert
Administrator
*****


If the 1st watt
sucks why continue?

Posts: 5559
Re:  CYROTONE Tubes by Don Thomas - New Video
Reply #203 - 06/05/22 at 03:58:44
 

My gut tells me that if the atoms are more perfectly arranged in a crystalline structure from getting closer together as the result of cryo treatment then when they are heated and expand the structure probably becomes even more perfect because it would have some space enough to create a more perfect alignment of the structure instead of being squashed together. My guess is that the heater/cathode of a cryo treated tube probably lasts quite a bit longer. I am pretty sure heating the metal up doesn't undo the alignment.

Here's a question for everyone here: What are austenite and martensite? If you don't know, then you don't know anything about cryo treatment.

Here is a well laid out explanation of how it works in a single page:  https://ctpcryogenics.com/cryogenics/what-is-cryogenic-processing/what-does-cryo...

I think a nice read of the above link would be encouraging for everyone who has purchased these tubes or anyone thinking about it to understand what is actually happening by learning about the process.

-Steve
Back to top
 
 
WWW   IP Logged
CAJames
Seasoned Member
****


"I've run every
red light on memory
lane."

Posts: 573
Re:  CYROTONE Tubes by Don Thomas - New Video
Reply #204 - 06/05/22 at 04:00:34
 
Logic? Look, I'm a physicist by training and so I do believe that at its core there is a "logical" explanation for everything in the universe. But there are a lot of things in human experience, like music reproduction, that are more subtle than we can understand to first principles today. The expression "more art than science" comes to mind. I know a little something about electric conductivity in metals, and it is wickedly complicated. And I know a very little something about how super cooling affects a metal lattice. And it doesn't seem ridiculous, prima facie, that cryo treating a vacuum tube will make it sound different and maybe better. That being said for me personally I'm in no hurry to buy them myself.

As for cryo treating the entire amp, I'm going to PM you about going into business doing exactly that. That is a stroke of genius.
Back to top
 
 
  IP Logged
JOMAN
Seasoned Member
****




Posts: 579
Re:  CYROTONE Tubes by Don Thomas - New Video
Reply #205 - 06/05/22 at 04:17:38
 
Quote:
Its only a small part of the tube (the cathode) that gets red hot, and it most does chemistry (cooking electrons off the cathode coating) not really "electronics." The rest of the tube guts: the plate and the grids and the connecting wires don't get nearly that hot. Presumably that is where whatever magic the cryo treatment does happens.


Exactly!
Back to top
 
 
  IP Logged
JOMAN
Seasoned Member
****




Posts: 579
Re:  CYROTONE Tubes by Don Thomas - New Video
Reply #206 - 06/05/22 at 04:24:11
 
Time for a dram of the single malt... anybody want to join in... ahhh, virtually that is.
Back to top
 
 
  IP Logged
CAJames
Seasoned Member
****


"I've run every
red light on memory
lane."

Posts: 573
Re:  CYROTONE Tubes by Don Thomas - New Video
Reply #207 - 06/05/22 at 04:33:18
 
Aye! I'm in.

Cheers!
Back to top
 
 
  IP Logged
safebelayer
Seasoned Member
****




Posts: 166
Re:  CYROTONE Tubes by Don Thomas - New Video
Reply #208 - 06/05/22 at 06:20:53
 
I just read this article. https://www.effectrode.com/knowledge-base/cryogenic-treatment-of-tubes-an-engine...

The summary of this scientific investigation, there's no proof anything is happening to the metal to effect tone.

Many scientists with relevant credentials have said the same thing about the technology of fancy audio cables, "there's no proof the technology in this $5000 cable will affect tone." Maybe science only goes so far; whereas, the human brain does note differences. Interesting discussion either way.

Steve, is there any possible way you could make your statement about the different steel moleculular structures that doesn't imply stupidity? Here's an example, "to know about cryogenic effects on steel requires knowing about martensite and austenite. Here's an article to read about it."  It is less judgemental toward your audience.

Peace to everyone
Back to top
 
 
  IP Logged
JOMAN
Seasoned Member
****




Posts: 579
Re:  CYROTONE Tubes by Don Thomas - New Video
Reply #209 - 06/05/22 at 11:31:24
 
Quote:
Steve, is there any possible way you could make your statement about the different steel moleculular structures that doesn't imply stupidity?


This is what is known as a verbal boomerang
Back to top
 
 
  IP Logged
JOMAN
Seasoned Member
****




Posts: 579
Re:  CYROTONE Tubes by Don Thomas - New Video
Reply #210 - 06/05/22 at 12:02:39
 
Oh and incase you think that I haven't read Phil Taylors article who is an electrical engineer and not a metallurgist, here's a quote from the article:

Quote:
So cryogenic treatment can work to improve the hardness of ferrous metals such as steel, but what about a vacuum tube—a tube is not a lump of steel—like a wristwatch, it’s a delicate and complex mechanism composed of many different parts, which in turn are made from different types of materials.


Okay, let's think about this... "a tube is not lump of steel-like a wrist watch "  really????????  The inner workings of a wrist watch, an instrument that we could say, in a way measures time, are not delicate, are not made to exacting tolerances, and that companies and and skilled trades persons are therefore needlessly spending time and effort to produce "lumps of steel".

Phils statement is the personification of stupidity.  It destroys utterly any credibility for using this drivel as proof.
Back to top
 
 
  IP Logged
safebelayer
Seasoned Member
****




Posts: 166
Re:  CYROTONE Tubes by Don Thomas - New Video
Reply #211 - 06/05/22 at 12:40:23
 
"Neener, neener, you're dumb."

Nice argument JOMAN.

The author was not saying the wristwatch is a lump of steel. In fact, he was stating just the opposite. He was using the wristwatch as an analogous example to a vacuum tube. Eliminate the bracketed clause, a lump of steel, and read the sentence. A tube, like a wristwatch, it's a delicate mechanism. He's identifying that both items are complex and variable in makeup. Neither is a lump of steel.

I was offering up an interesting article on the subject in this thread. Maybe, the author isn't spot on, maybe, but it's certainly relevant. If I'm wrong, awesome, then I will have learned something. That's a reason to celebrate not feel stupid.Once again, good discourse goes a long way without character judgements and/or character assassination. Please try it.

As far as being an electrical engineer, like a metallurgist, they have cross discipline knowledge and an ability to scientifically assess research in other scientific disciplines. It's also not a stretch for an EE to know principles of metallurgy for purposes of energy movement, conduction, and other effects upon and within different types of metal. Here's an except from https://www.cryogenicsociety.org/cryo-careers "Cryo Careers
Professionals who deal with cryogenics learn their trade in a variety of academic and hands-on ways, coming from the fields of mechanical, chemical and electrical engineering, various specialized physics areas, materials science and a combination of these and other backgrounds. Whatever the academic background, there is always a basic need for hands-on experience in the lab or in industry.

Mr Taylor may not be experienced in the cryo trade, but him being and EE certainly doesn't disqualify him from speaking on the subject, as evidenced by the excerpt above.

Thank you, JOMAN, for the encouragement. It really helps the environment for learning.

Back to top
 
 
  IP Logged
JBzen
Seasoned Member
****




Posts: 632
Re:  CYROTONE Tubes by Don Thomas - New Video
Reply #212 - 06/05/22 at 12:54:46
 
Thanks safebelayer for beating me to Joman's misinterpretation of what was being pointed out between a mechanical watch and vacuum tube.

I read the articles posted by you and Steve linked. Interesting points of cryo treatment has been used on hardened steel to further refine the process of hardening both before and after the process of hardening.

My take at this point is Don created a timed process that basically does not shorten the life of the tube.

My thoughts turned to can this cryo process just tighten the connections in the various materials inside the tube giving it a different tonal character?

John
Back to top
 
 

AMC CD8b>XO3>Cambridge CXN2>Stokes DAC>Decware silver/occ DIY> Zrock2>CSP2+>SE84 milflex copper 25th>11AWG silver/copper braid>lii Crystal 10 in Huijgen cabinets. Ortofon 2M Bronze>JVC QL-F4>ZP3>Sims isolation. Isolation-AC filtering-Room treatment
  IP Logged
JOMAN
Seasoned Member
****




Posts: 579
Re:  CYROTONE Tubes by Don Thomas - New Video
Reply #213 - 06/05/22 at 13:13:39
 
Yes it was a misinterpretation.  Perhaps the way it was written had something to do with it. Or the  My apologies.  

However I do feel that the use of words  such as stupidity should not be used by me or others if objectivity is to be maintained.
Back to top
 
 
  IP Logged
JOMAN
Seasoned Member
****




Posts: 579
Re:  CYROTONE Tubes by Don Thomas - New Video
Reply #214 - 06/05/22 at 13:31:27
 
Correction,

Yes it was a misinterpretation. Perhaps the way it was written had something to do with it OR more likely the way that I read it... my apologies.
Back to top
 
 
  IP Logged
JOMAN
Seasoned Member
****




Posts: 579
Re:  CYROTONE Tubes by Don Thomas - New Video
Reply #215 - 06/05/22 at 14:35:37
 
I would like to add the following,

We often base conclusions on measurement, even though we often learn to measure after a discovery.  

The statement has been made... the more we discover the less we know.  Yet we still have a tendency to base conclusions and arguments on what limited knowledge we have without qualifying statements and conclusions with an acknowledgement our limitations... what we know at this time.  Credentials do not make us omniscient.

Our senses, hearing, vision, taste cannot be denied and lead to discoveries and often these are not taken into consideration or worse are dismissed.

I find this discussion of cryogenic treatment to be tainted with some or all of the above.  Some of what I feel about the manner in which we present what we know may be affected by misinterpretation, but certainly not all of what I feel about this.  

I find the humans have degree of arrogance and when I encounter this I find it to be very distasteful.

Back to top
 
 
  IP Logged
safebelayer
Seasoned Member
****




Posts: 166
Re:  CYROTONE Tubes by Don Thomas - New Video
Reply #216 - 06/05/22 at 16:24:36
 
JOMAN,

First class response. Truly. If everyone owned their actions and the effects of such, well, good stuff happens. I appreciate your choice to do so rather than ego protection. I know it is a lesson I have to practice daily, if not hourly.

Peace
Back to top
 
 
  IP Logged
DancingSea
Seasoned Member
****




Posts: 476
Re:  CYROTONE Tubes by Don Thomas - New Video
Reply #217 - 06/09/22 at 19:30:55
 
Good stuff JOMAN!

I've spent more time with the 1966 Blackburn Mullard, and a 1963 Amperex Bugleboy.  Wow, both have been splendid.  The Amperex has a bit more tingle on the top end, but not remotely harsh or aggressive.  Both might not measure well, but they sound excellent to me.

My theory is that CryoTone JJ's add solid state like qualities which likely enhance an all tube, low watt setup.  Increased bass and slam, along with a more revealing top end.  I have a 200 watt solid state Marantz amp, so I have the solid state part covered and the CryoTone JJ's tipped the scales in too much of that direction.

My particular sonic gumbo benefits from the more romantic, creamy and euphonic nature of those old school measuring poorly tubes.  It softens and enriches the sound.

When one thinks about it, discussing how a tube sounds is fraught with danger.  We can't just listen to a tube on its own.  The tube must be plugged into an amp or preamp, which is connected to speakers, a source, and God knows what else.  Thus reporting back on how a particular tube sounds is actually reporting back on how the whole gumbo sounds, with the tube being just a tiny part of the equation, egg #13 in a baker's dozen.

The CryoTone experience has been extremely helpful in clarifying what type of tubes I like.  I cannot imagine doing better than NOS Amperex and Mullard.  And equally understand how cost and availability would make CryoTone appealing to manufacturers.

Which leads me to another theory, that additional noise does not necessarily sound worse, and in fact might enhance the sound.  My experience with PS Audio started that line of thought.  Each Ted Smith update sought to reduce noise. And each update sounded worse to me.  Our minds want certainty, to create order out of the chaos of our existence, to latch onto a belief or ideology and make that "the truth".  In sound engineering the belief that all noise is detrimental can turn into just such a dogma - look at Audio Science Review.  And look at vinyl, which is noisier and preferred by many.

Our brains are not noise meters.  They are a complex result of evolution over massive expanses of time in which iron clad rules seldom have relevance.  And after millions of years, we are literally the first generation of humans to ever have such HiFi gear to listen to.  First ever.  This is hardly the time to create sonic dogma, we are at the very birth of HiFi with hundreds upon hundreds of years ahead of us, as a species, to learn about the nature of sound.  We are literally in the leeches are great and pay your respects to the Sun God Ra phase of our collective HiFi journey.

Anyone who claims to know, obviously knows little.  We have much to learn.
Back to top
 
 
  IP Logged
jec3504
Seasoned Member
****


I'm on the live and
learn program.

Posts: 282
Re:  CYROTONE Tubes by Don Thomas - New Video
Reply #218 - 06/16/22 at 14:34:23
 
Question: CryoTone  6SN7 tubes are the JJ 6SN7?




If true is that the same for the KT77 & EL34?

It's interesting to hear them (JJ6SN7 Cyrotone) described as bright. My thoughts always has been they are extremely neutral. They just add good clean gain. Have a few new production 6SN7s that started with a elevated top end. Some of my favorite.

Guess I'm curious to try them out.


Joseph
Back to top
 
 

Waiting for ZRock2-25th
Pi4 Bifrost2 Freya+
2 Aegir ,Torii MK 5-25th
RP600M F-15 W-15
  IP Logged
safebelayer
Seasoned Member
****




Posts: 166
Re:  CYROTONE Tubes by Don Thomas - New Video
Reply #219 - 06/16/22 at 18:31:52
 
Joseph,

What nos 6sn7 tubes have you tried to compare these against?

Thanks
Back to top
 
 
  IP Logged
jec3504
Seasoned Member
****


I'm on the live and
learn program.

Posts: 282
Re:  CYROTONE Tubes by Don Thomas - New Video
Reply #220 - 06/16/22 at 19:04:29
 
safebelayer,

Only 6SN7GTA or B, Tung-sol, Sylvania, RCA, and GE. Older the better. As "NOS" have more old stock. Don't use the JJ's much. Good to have being so neutral.
Back to top
 
 

Waiting for ZRock2-25th
Pi4 Bifrost2 Freya+
2 Aegir ,Torii MK 5-25th
RP600M F-15 W-15
  IP Logged
jec3504
Seasoned Member
****


I'm on the live and
learn program.

Posts: 282
Re:  CYROTONE Tubes by Don Thomas - New Video
Reply #221 - 06/16/22 at 20:28:44
 
New production- all of them....lol
Back to top
 
 

Waiting for ZRock2-25th
Pi4 Bifrost2 Freya+
2 Aegir ,Torii MK 5-25th
RP600M F-15 W-15
  IP Logged
safebelayer
Seasoned Member
****




Posts: 166
Re:  CYROTONE Tubes by Don Thomas - New Video
Reply #222 - 06/16/22 at 23:18:58
 
Have you used the psvane cv181 mk ii? https://www.ebay.com/itm/255489645621?mkcid=16&mkevt=1&mkrid=711-127632-2357-0&s...

I liked them a lot in my vac mono amps. I found them to be neutral. Yes, they're not cheap. I'm not a fan of 6sn7 in the Torii mkiv. I also used rca and ken-rad gray tops (vt231). Both were excellent in the monos...though I like warm & dynamic.

Back to top
 
 
  IP Logged
jec3504
Seasoned Member
****


I'm on the live and
learn program.

Posts: 282
Re:  CYROTONE Tubes by Don Thomas - New Video
Reply #223 - 06/17/22 at 02:33:32
 
safebelayer,

Yes, from Viva Tubes. About 14 months ago. Purchase all my new production tubes before the price increase. Like them a lot. My pre amp doesn't play nice with foil getters. Just stick with the GTA,B or 5692. Not sure if I want to use adapters on the Torri. Have some "NOS" Mullard and Amperex E88CC to try out.
Back to top
 
 

Waiting for ZRock2-25th
Pi4 Bifrost2 Freya+
2 Aegir ,Torii MK 5-25th
RP600M F-15 W-15
  IP Logged
safebelayer
Seasoned Member
****




Posts: 166
Re:  CYROTONE Tubes by Don Thomas - New Video
Reply #224 - 06/17/22 at 04:07:10
 
I found the 6sn7 in the Torii was likely limited to the quality of the adapter.

I'm a huge fan of the amperex 7308 and Mullard equivalent. I have found the 70s production of those tubes to be notably less impressive. Thinner sounding or not as rich...is that redundant?

Do you have preferred power and rectifier tubes?
Back to top
 
 
  IP Logged
tempest62
Verified Member
**




Posts: 33
Re:  CYROTONE Tubes by Don Thomas - New Video
Reply #225 - 06/17/22 at 04:15:28
 
Get rid of garbage Chinese communist 6SN7 adapters [a beautiful sledge hammer provides excellent therapy], be done with the case of the heavy veils, and get THIS instead:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/265553186770?hash=item3dd4340fd2:g:-PYAAOSwOyJX-neh
Back to top
 
 

Torii MK 5-25th (on waitlist), CSP3, ZBIT. ZRock2-25th, Bryston BDA-3 DAC+BDP-2 player, Brickwall 8, Ansuz conditioning, DHC-1, DSR-3, ZStyx, Omega Jr. XRS 8 alnico, Omega DH 8, PI Audio diffusion + DIY room treatments…Audeze LCD-4, Norne Audio Silvergarde S3.
  IP Logged
jec3504
Seasoned Member
****


I'm on the live and
learn program.

Posts: 282
Re:  CYROTONE Tubes by Don Thomas - New Video
Reply #226 - 06/17/22 at 05:21:18
 
safebelayer,

Thinking about ordering Cyrotone power and rectifier tubes. Have a nice selection of rectifiers. Just got my Torii the other day, running stock tubes. I'll get in to changing the rectifies soon.



Brad,

Nice find, how long have you had them? Never seen those before.
Back to top
 
 

Waiting for ZRock2-25th
Pi4 Bifrost2 Freya+
2 Aegir ,Torii MK 5-25th
RP600M F-15 W-15
  IP Logged
safebelayer
Seasoned Member
****




Posts: 166
Re:  CYROTONE Tubes by Don Thomas - New Video
Reply #227 - 06/17/22 at 07:50:30
 
Those adapters have been around for a couple years. Unfortunately, they don't make the EL34 to 807 adapter.
Back to top
 
 
  IP Logged
jec3504
Seasoned Member
****


I'm on the live and
learn program.

Posts: 282
Re:  CYROTONE Tubes by Don Thomas - New Video
Reply #228 - 06/19/22 at 00:27:56
 
Orders in, went with the EL34 and 5AR4. Skipped the 6SN7 maybe next time.
Back to top
 
 

Waiting for ZRock2-25th
Pi4 Bifrost2 Freya+
2 Aegir ,Torii MK 5-25th
RP600M F-15 W-15
  IP Logged
safebelayer
Seasoned Member
****




Posts: 166
Re:  CYROTONE Tubes by Don Thomas - New Video
Reply #229 - 06/19/22 at 02:40:44
 
I would want to compare the cryotone to my nos Russian 6L6gc (1960s-70s). That said, I'm not interested in the $600 initial layout to do so. I guess I'll live in ignorance, happy with my $60 quad.

I hope to hear what you think.

Peace
Back to top
 
 
  IP Logged
jec3504
Seasoned Member
****


I'm on the live and
learn program.

Posts: 282
Re:  CYROTONE Tubes by Don Thomas - New Video
Reply #230 - 06/19/22 at 04:27:30
 
safebelayer,

Educational purchase, wish I would have bought some of those Russian 6L6gc a year ago. Most I ever spent on tubes for sure.
Back to top
 
 

Waiting for ZRock2-25th
Pi4 Bifrost2 Freya+
2 Aegir ,Torii MK 5-25th
RP600M F-15 W-15
  IP Logged
Geno
Seasoned Member
****


Without music, life
would be a mistake.

Posts: 1643
Re:  CYROTONE Tubes by Don Thomas - New Video
Reply #231 - 06/19/22 at 04:35:38
 
Thanks for the link Brad. Those are nice. I ordered one to try out. I won’t need another til my other SE84 gets here next year Undecided

Best,

Geno
Back to top
 
 

SE84UFO + (SE84UFO on order) OR Sansui AU-222,AU-505,800,210
Cambr.Aud.CXN (ModWright) • Cambr.Aud.CXC • ZBIT
Technics SL-1210MK5 (KAB Mods)w/ Soundsm Aida MKll
Soundsm MMP3 phono pre
Otari MX5050 R2R
ZLC Pwr Cond
Lii Crystal 10 & W-15 in Open Baffles
  IP Logged
jec3504
Seasoned Member
****


I'm on the live and
learn program.

Posts: 282
Re:  CYROTONE Tubes by Don Thomas - New Video
Reply #232 - 06/21/22 at 21:20:07
 
Hey Geno,

Starting to see a pattern forming here. Seem to be buying the same stuff. Ordered two myself, thanks Brad.

Joseph
Back to top
 
 

Waiting for ZRock2-25th
Pi4 Bifrost2 Freya+
2 Aegir ,Torii MK 5-25th
RP600M F-15 W-15
  IP Logged
Lon
Seasoned Member
****


"Love without
guts is
worthless!"
Philip K. Dick

Posts: 19603
Re:  CYROTONE Tubes by Don Thomas - New Video
Reply #233 - 06/22/22 at 15:36:48
 
Geno said:
"Thanks for the link Brad. Those are nice. I ordered one to try out. I won’t need another til my other SE84 gets here next year Undecided

Best,

Geno"

I ordered a pair of these some time ago before they were suggested here. The first tube I inserted in one the guide pin broke off inside it, so it can now only be used for that tube. And the pair of bases produced a sound when used a bit brighter than the other pairs I had been using so I put them aside. It's possible that the brightness would season "out" but I didn't want to try it then and have forgotten about them since--side-lined a pair of matched tubes for me.
Back to top
 
 

HR-1,ZTPRE,ZBIT,ZROCK2,SE84UFO3-25th x2, CSP3-25th.Taboo Mk IV; Rega RP3 w all GrooveTracer mods PS Audio: PST+DSD,P15,NPC,PowerBases,AC-12 pwr cbls, Reference spkr cbls;Mapleshade:Samson V3;;VooDoo:Cremona+Amati intrcncts, Iso-Pods;headphones:PM1,HD800S,ZMF Ori
  IP Logged
jec3504
Seasoned Member
****


I'm on the live and
learn program.

Posts: 282
Re:  CYROTONE Tubes by Don Thomas - New Video
Reply #234 - 06/22/22 at 18:34:18
 
Lon,

What adapters are you using presently, if you don't mind me asking sir?

Joseph
Back to top
 
 

Waiting for ZRock2-25th
Pi4 Bifrost2 Freya+
2 Aegir ,Torii MK 5-25th
RP600M F-15 W-15
  IP Logged
Lon
Seasoned Member
****


"Love without
guts is
worthless!"
Philip K. Dick

Posts: 19603
Re:  CYROTONE Tubes by Don Thomas - New Video
Reply #235 - 06/22/22 at 19:15:00
 
Just some from eBay, Chinese made. I like them.
Back to top
 
 

HR-1,ZTPRE,ZBIT,ZROCK2,SE84UFO3-25th x2, CSP3-25th.Taboo Mk IV; Rega RP3 w all GrooveTracer mods PS Audio: PST+DSD,P15,NPC,PowerBases,AC-12 pwr cbls, Reference spkr cbls;Mapleshade:Samson V3;;VooDoo:Cremona+Amati intrcncts, Iso-Pods;headphones:PM1,HD800S,ZMF Ori
  IP Logged
jec3504
Seasoned Member
****


I'm on the live and
learn program.

Posts: 282
Re:  CYROTONE Tubes by Don Thomas - New Video
Reply #236 - 06/22/22 at 20:52:52
 
Lon,

Thank you sir, have some of those. Appreciate your opinions and thoughts as always.

Joseph
Back to top
 
 

Waiting for ZRock2-25th
Pi4 Bifrost2 Freya+
2 Aegir ,Torii MK 5-25th
RP600M F-15 W-15
  IP Logged
Doug
Seasoned Member
****




Posts: 162
Re:  CYROTONE Tubes by Don Thomas - New Video
Reply #237 - 06/23/22 at 03:52:52
 
I purchased three Cryotone 6SN7 tubes from Wathen several weeks ago.  The tubes have been used in the two driver positions and the input position of my Cary 300SEI.  They came so closely matched that it didn’t matter which positions the tubes occupied.  Here’s where I need some advice.

When I first fired up the amp following installation of the Cryotone tubes, the right channel was making common preamp tube noise—huffing, puffing, hissing, and some minor static.  I swapped the left and right driver tubes and the noise moved to the left channel.  I then moved the apparently noisy tube to the input position, and the tube noise was gone.  So I left it that way for a few weeks.

Approximately a week ago I again shifted the positions of the three 6SN7’s, with the suspect tube now in one of the driver positions, and the noises instantly reappeared.  Left and right driver tubes were once again swapped and the noise followed the “bad” tube.

Now the noisy tube is back in the input position, the amp is noiseless, and the left and right channel outputs seem to be perfectly balanced.  It also sounds fantastic with the three Cryotones feeding the Western Electric 300B’s that have now surpassed the 300 hour mark.

My questions are these.  Is the sometimes noisy tube actually a bad tube?  Is this the beginning of early tube failure?  Why is it dead silent when used in the input position, but noisy when in either driver position?  Except for the SS amp that is driving my woofers, every amp and preamp I have owned for nearly 40 years has been tube based, but I have never experienced this odd tube issue.

I sent Don a similar description of the problem a week or so ago, but haven’t heard back from him yet.  I plan to call him in a day or two, but would be interested in forum member opinions in the mean time.


Back to top
 
 

Jay’s CD2T-Mk3
Denafrips Pontus II
ZROCK2 (on order)
CSP3 25th & Custom Mods
Cary 300SEI Mk6 Western Electric 300B
………Driving Full Rangers
LFD NCSE Driving Eight 15” Woofers
PAP Quintets with Voxativ 1.6
Wireworld, XLO, Clearview, Duelund
  IP Logged
LiquidBlue
Verified Member
**




Posts: 8
Re:  CYROTONE Tubes by Don Thomas - New Video
Reply #238 - 06/23/22 at 05:21:51
 
Regarding adapters, I have a bunch of 6SN7’s on hand. I recently picked up a few of the Chinese adapters on eBay to use in my CSP3. I find the adapters don’t seat properly, because of the screws on each side of the tube sockets. The adapters don’t sit flush and are wobbly, not leaving me very confident to use them.

Do others have this issue and if so, how did you resolve this? Did you dremel out a notch on the bottom edge of the adapter to get it to seat better? Change out the screws? Do these alternative adapters that Brad linked to fit better? It looks like the bottom portion is even wider than an octal base, but I’m not sure if the bottom insulator would be more narrow for the proper adapter, allowing it to seat better? Or perhaps the pins are a little longer?
Back to top
 
 
  IP Logged
BicycleJoe
Seasoned Member
****


It's All In One Note

Posts: 115
Re:  CYROTONE Tubes by Don Thomas - New Video
Reply #239 - 06/23/22 at 08:34:42
 
Lon, the good news is when your tubes get to the one year mark and you have a chance to evaluate the longevity i'll still have the summer to adjust to my new Rachel & ZP3 stock before I move on your tube recommendations for them. It's on my calendar to check in with you.
Back to top
 
 

OnOrder
*Rachel SE 34.6IANVmods*ZP3ANVmods*ZLC*
Due summer 2023
In House *JVC QLY-66F DD TT*JBL 240Ti* *Rega IO*Carver Receiver*

  IP Logged
Lon
Seasoned Member
****


"Love without
guts is
worthless!"
Philip K. Dick

Posts: 19603
Re:  CYROTONE Tubes by Don Thomas - New Video
Reply #240 - 06/23/22 at 11:58:19
 
I'm not sure how my longevity report on the 6P15P-WC tubes will be relevant to those two components. . . . I have expectations that the 6SN7 Cryotone will last 3 to 5 years . . . going beyond the one year point operation won't represent any longevity for them as it would the output tubes.

At this point we can take the word of Wathen Speakers that other users have had 3 years or so of use out of their tubes, and we can have faith that this will apply to us. This would be the key selling point depending on the nature of one's temperament and experience and whether this sort of faith and trust would lead to a purchase. About three or four years from now user testimonial here will add another level of "proof" that these tubes are worth the three to four times cost of the tubes compared to untreated examples. I do feel there are some valid improvements to the sound from the treatment, but in my opinion the sales hype is a bit. . . sales hype. The improvements alone don't to me warrant three to four times the cost, and I've enjoyed some NOS input tubes about as much at not quite this price.

And all this leads me to say that we have tempests in teapots on this thread because so much is still up in the air. (And some apparently generated with little real info just to spice up someone's afternoon). The way that tubes sound in my experience differs from component to component. I have tubes I really enjoyed in my Torris that i don't enjoy in my Taboo and Monoblocks, and vice versa. And tubes some like a lot here others don't value highly. Longevity seems to thus be the key, solid value to these tubes. . . and we are years away from knowing the truth of these claims from Decware user experience. This discussion has had all kinds of disagreeable (owned or not owned, owned but REPEATED) exchanges. . . and left some pretty bad tastes in mouths. . . and is much ado about very little. Honestly I think I could gain the most by revisiting this thread in three years and seeing how many of these original output tubes are still in use!  
Back to top
 
 

HR-1,ZTPRE,ZBIT,ZROCK2,SE84UFO3-25th x2, CSP3-25th.Taboo Mk IV; Rega RP3 w all GrooveTracer mods PS Audio: PST+DSD,P15,NPC,PowerBases,AC-12 pwr cbls, Reference spkr cbls;Mapleshade:Samson V3;;VooDoo:Cremona+Amati intrcncts, Iso-Pods;headphones:PM1,HD800S,ZMF Ori
  IP Logged
BicycleJoe
Seasoned Member
****


It's All In One Note

Posts: 115
Re:  CYROTONE Tubes by Don Thomas - New Video
Reply #241 - 06/23/22 at 13:59:10
 
Yes Cyro Don only treats one tube that's relevant to the Rachel, the EL34 that received superlative reviews here on this thread. I didn't see any listings for 6N1P, 6N23P, 6H1N, 6922, 6Dj8,7DJ8 or 6N2P. Steve himself only lists one type untreated. Still longevity at peak performance level as a quality imbued by tube specific cryogenic treatment should still be demonstrable across the board. Can you agree with that premise?

I have a nice stash of Mullard, Phillips, RCA and other flavor nos valves, both preamp and power tubes. I still intend to use them but your careful attention to the cycling of the tubes in your rig will influence my opinion. Plus in that one year others will I'm sure help the dust settle around the tempest.

Quite honestly I am surprised that cryogenics is getting another go on the merry go round, nothing new under the sun. We went this way with so many different items in the live performance arena two decades ago. I see nothing wrong with using crystals enhancements and silver paint on tube connectors. I am still open to believing in magic if it's cost-effective.
Back to top
 
 

OnOrder
*Rachel SE 34.6IANVmods*ZP3ANVmods*ZLC*
Due summer 2023
In House *JVC QLY-66F DD TT*JBL 240Ti* *Rega IO*Carver Receiver*

  IP Logged
Lon
Seasoned Member
****


"Love without
guts is
worthless!"
Philip K. Dick

Posts: 19603
Re:  CYROTONE Tubes by Don Thomas - New Video
Reply #242 - 06/23/22 at 14:18:32
 
I'll entertain that premise if not entirely agree with it. The real test would be to have a pair of the same exact output tube run parallel in the same components for the same time and compare them one against the other after a year, two years, three or as long as there is no difference. I can't conduct that test, I don't think the vendor is doing so. There's an element of trust involved in this as a base line as I see it. (I don't believe in "magic" at any price point).

I'll try to remember to make a post about these in a year or so. If I'm around. If I'm not listening to another amp between now and then--I'd jump at a chance to be listening to the Sarah! Variables.
Back to top
 
 

HR-1,ZTPRE,ZBIT,ZROCK2,SE84UFO3-25th x2, CSP3-25th.Taboo Mk IV; Rega RP3 w all GrooveTracer mods PS Audio: PST+DSD,P15,NPC,PowerBases,AC-12 pwr cbls, Reference spkr cbls;Mapleshade:Samson V3;;VooDoo:Cremona+Amati intrcncts, Iso-Pods;headphones:PM1,HD800S,ZMF Ori
  IP Logged
Tony
Seasoned Member
****




Posts: 192
Re:  CYROTONE Tubes by Don Thomas - New Video
Reply #243 - 06/23/22 at 14:22:48
 

Doug,

Give Don a call. I had a Cryo tube that flashed at start-up. I pulled it immediately. Don replaced it and asked that I return the tube for further investigation, which I did. You can also request to talk with Angie when you leave a message(angie@wathenspeakers.com.)  Ultimately you need to discuss it with Don, but she can facilitate it.
Back to top
 
 

Torii MkIV w 25th Ann | CSP 2+ | ZRock2 w 25th Ann | Cambr. CXNv2 | Pontus II DAC | Media Converter | Decware I/Cs | Decware Pwr Cbls | ZSTYX Cbls | Caintuck Lii Fast 8's & Bass Baffle | Sennheiser HD-650 | Furman Conditioning
  IP Logged
Tony
Seasoned Member
****




Posts: 192
Re:  CYROTONE Tubes by Don Thomas - New Video
Reply #244 - 06/23/22 at 14:28:11
 

LiquidBlue asked:

Do others have this issue and if so, how did you resolve this? Did you dremel out a notch on the bottom edge of the adapter to get it to seat better?

That's what I did. Now they fit perfectly.
Back to top
 
 

Torii MkIV w 25th Ann | CSP 2+ | ZRock2 w 25th Ann | Cambr. CXNv2 | Pontus II DAC | Media Converter | Decware I/Cs | Decware Pwr Cbls | ZSTYX Cbls | Caintuck Lii Fast 8's & Bass Baffle | Sennheiser HD-650 | Furman Conditioning
  IP Logged
BicycleJoe
Seasoned Member
****


It's All In One Note

Posts: 115
Re:  CYROTONE Tubes by Don Thomas - New Video
Reply #245 - 06/23/22 at 15:34:47
 
This is a Reproduction of the 1946 Fender Professional for its 50th Anniversary, #4 of 50 they did a NOS run of 50 amps only changes were to bring it up to code. It does have a "15" Jenson Field Coil Electrified Speaker". It has the 40's Metal Jacket 6SJ7's and 6N7's. The rectifier has been a weak spot. I've gone through a few but the vintage reproductions have proved worthless. It's nice to keep it all vintage but I've gone with a Sovtech 5U4GB and JAN 6L6's for reliability, it's a special piece but a player.
The metal jackets I've experienced are just on the microphonic side of things for a distinct guitar tone.

Theoretically it could use cryogenic tubes but I think it would lose that microphonic thing that I love so much. Guitar tube amplifiers are really analog distortion machines.


Back to top
 
 

OnOrder
*Rachel SE 34.6IANVmods*ZP3ANVmods*ZLC*
Due summer 2023
In House *JVC QLY-66F DD TT*JBL 240Ti* *Rega IO*Carver Receiver*

  IP Logged
Same Old DD
Seasoned Member
****




Posts: 198
Re:  CYROTONE Tubes by Don Thomas - New Video
Reply #246 - 06/23/22 at 16:28:37
 
Joe, that thing's a beauty!
I'll bet that old Jensen design puts out some wonderful tone and richness.
I would love to see more amps that were made in the "old way" in use today.

''Oh, I get the same sound and it's lighter"    No, you don't!

I have nothing that "classic" looking, but I did keep a '65 Twin Reverb, one of my old stage amps used by MANY and a black, post-tweed Champ (my Dad's living room amp, can't remember the year).
They both have very warm AlNiCo Jensens.

I love your repro!
... and you got #4? Amazing!
Back to top
 
 

SE84Cs Mono'ed, McIntosh MC2500, Yamaha Pre, Dual TT, Ortofon, JBL2235x4 modded for OB, Visaton B200 OB, Kleenline Power, Revox & Sony R-R
  IP Logged
BicycleJoe
Seasoned Member
****


It's All In One Note

Posts: 115
Re:  CYROTONE Tubes by Don Thomas - New Video
Reply #247 - 06/23/22 at 17:23:19
 
Yeah it's solid Birdseye maple, I'm glad it comes with the flight case with wheels. I did have the whole 50th anniversary package that came with the snake head prototype guitar that was around 48 I let that go it was also all nice and made out of pine. I kept the amp because no other 50s fender even the tweeds and the other Woody's have the sound of this big boy. Because they were special order no two were completely alike until they did this reproduction run and still there is no specific schematic everything is modified from the Woody Deluxe model number 26.

Theoretically it could use cryogenic tubes.


Back to top
 
 

OnOrder
*Rachel SE 34.6IANVmods*ZP3ANVmods*ZLC*
Due summer 2023
In House *JVC QLY-66F DD TT*JBL 240Ti* *Rega IO*Carver Receiver*

  IP Logged
Lon
Seasoned Member
****


"Love without
guts is
worthless!"
Philip K. Dick

Posts: 19603
Re:  CYROTONE Tubes by Don Thomas - New Video
Reply #248 - 06/23/22 at 17:49:57
 
Beautiful amp, I bet it sounds wonderful.
Back to top
 
 

HR-1,ZTPRE,ZBIT,ZROCK2,SE84UFO3-25th x2, CSP3-25th.Taboo Mk IV; Rega RP3 w all GrooveTracer mods PS Audio: PST+DSD,P15,NPC,PowerBases,AC-12 pwr cbls, Reference spkr cbls;Mapleshade:Samson V3;;VooDoo:Cremona+Amati intrcncts, Iso-Pods;headphones:PM1,HD800S,ZMF Ori
  IP Logged
Doug
Seasoned Member
****




Posts: 162
Re:  CYROTONE Tubes by Don Thomas - New Video
Reply #249 - 06/24/22 at 00:38:12
 
Tony said:
Give Don a call. I had a Cryo tube that flashed at start-up. I pulled it immediately. Don replaced it and asked that I return the tube for further investigation, which I did. You can also request to talk with Angie when you leave a message(angie@wathenspeakers.com.)  Ultimately you need to discuss it with Don, but she can facilitate it.


Don is sending a replacement 6SN7-WC for the “likely bad” tube…….no questions asked.  Mr. Wathen is certainly a stand up guy!

I like the sound of the three Cryotone 6SN7-WC’s driving my Western Electric 300B’s so much that I just ordered a Cryotone 5AR4 rectifier and a Cryotone ECC88 input tube for my CSP3.  We’ll see how they compare to the very musical Sophia 274B Aqua rectifier and any number of really good NOS 6922/6DJ8 tubes I have.  I have a feeling that the Cryotones will fair well…….we’ll know shortly.
Back to top
 
 

Jay’s CD2T-Mk3
Denafrips Pontus II
ZROCK2 (on order)
CSP3 25th & Custom Mods
Cary 300SEI Mk6 Western Electric 300B
………Driving Full Rangers
LFD NCSE Driving Eight 15” Woofers
PAP Quintets with Voxativ 1.6
Wireworld, XLO, Clearview, Duelund
  IP Logged
Pages: 1 ... 3 4 5 6 
Send Topic Print