DS,

I am not a fan of the bugle boy tubes. They're not bad, just not notable....to me. What's your budget per tube?

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To me, that's the beauty of tubes that kicks the absolute living crap outta SS. I will never see another SS amp for the rest of my life. Maybe one exception someday for the hell of it, the original Threshold Stasis SA-3. That was the ONLY solid state amp ever to really blow my mind.....as monoblocks paired with the original Apogee Caliper speakers, that sound is something that has haunted me for 30 years. I STILL haven't heard anything that comes remotely close. Damn my audio friend at the time that turned me onto to those, ruined my life, LOL

The more stages available for tuning and gain the better [well, up to a point]. Become one with the complexity of your beloved equipment, simple is for simps.

Lon,

You only get one year out of an input tube. That's a very low number of hours. Even at that, what's the cost of the Decware Russian import compared to the cryotone? I'm guessing it's a third of the price or even less.  These cryotone tubes are not proving to be any sort of holy grail tube. Simply, personal preference, nothing more.

The following emails have come in today - regarding these tubes


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and this one

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This has been my experience as well, smooth as a babies ass with great detail. Keep in mind that everyone has different systems and there are many reasons for claiming the stuff is bright. For one, Lon is allergic to highs. All of his gear has custom tone controls to reduce highs. Another example that can cause this to happen when comparing to a favorite NOS tube, is that as tubes age they soften. As they soften, systems get voiced with brighter cables, DACs, speakers, or other tubes that are brighter to balance it. Then when the NOS tube that is soft sounding is "updated" with something fresh, the system sounds bright.

This is not referring to you, so no need to responsd whoever you are. No need to defend your NOS tube choices, I am putting this out there as a common hypothetical situation that can cause these results.

I'm sure Don has no issues with taking a tube back if you don't like it, you don't need a reason.

The beauty of raw uncensored feedback in this forum is to show you what can happen to You.  It's not a guaranteed thing for every system.

-Steve

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Anyone who dominates a public forum (see post counts) is going to have followers and you actually do have followers, many who have brought you up in phone calls with me - always in a positive manner - so I would say you have likely 1000's of people who follow your posts.

Softened NOS comments were not pertaining to you, you are a unique case that even if something is not bright, you think it is bright.  Evidence of that is treble controls that you can't live without on every amp and no one else with Decware gear (tens of thousands so far) don't need, don't want and have no use for.

This simply says you have sensitive hearing in the high end and a low tolerance for less than perfect sound in those regions.  This is no doubt why you have fallen so deeply into the hobby -- because you can hear more than most -- and why your opinion here is so well respected.  Because of the sensitivity to top end you hear midrange with far more depth.  This is why your opinion is valuable.  But when it comes to saying something is brighter than  something else to a reader like Don who doesn't know you, it is pretty easy to understand his reaction and he isn't wrong, just making an observation like you were.


Steve

All hail Lon! What is thy bidding, my master...

Count me in (except for the smart phone thing)

SB, I definitely see your point. I also see that Steve is a business owner and is also allowed to be enthusiastic about his opinion of tubes that he feels are the best choice for his components, and he is in a position to try them across the product line. That is what I see here: enthusiasm for a product he has investigated and found works very well for his products, mixed in with a bit of sales technique. When I'm enthusiastic about something my perspective is a bit changed and my words a bit more vibrant. That is what I see here.

I agree that we're all hearing differently in differing rooms and with different equipment and that is a great leveling field that grants validity to any assessment for that particular musical environment. And persons in business need to sell things so enthusiastic endorsements and shall we say "excited" sales approaches are to be expected. The good thing here is that it seems that there is an opportunity with these tubes to try and return if you don't like them. That's not always the case, and that makes being influenced by enthusiasm and excitement less of a financial risk than in many other instances. . . .

As a new "tuber", this forum as helped me tremendously in this audio adventure..Everyone has their opinion based on their experiences and varied audio interpretation.  Nonetheless, it is ultimately each individual's choice of tubes, ICs, power cables, amps, preamps, speakers, acoustic treatments based on what the forum members have or will continue to provide.  I for one am thankful to everyone willing and able to lend advice and opinions.  As for me, my ears and wallet love some Cryotones...And for the moment, my search for other tubes has taken a "strategic" pause.  Just tubes.....
Bob
PS. If I were to grade myself from K to 12, college....I am at Grade 2 in level of knowledge and expertise in this forum.....

I don't quite see things the same way in regards to his comments to me.

But let me suggest this rock and a hard place situation that Steve has faced since the company began: he began producing tube gear at a time when the US was not producing any tubes, and the freshly independent Easter European factories were just getting their own production and distribution in motion, and Russian military surplus was what was mostly coming out of Russia, though a few Russian companies were distributing tubes to the rest of the world, some of which ended up being owned by US companies I believe. Anyway--he did not have many choices to supply with his components and he did not want to supply excellent NOS tubes that the new owner would then have to struggle to re-tube--he wanted to offer a complement that he could replicate and that would serve as a base line for each component across ownerships. He has had to shift his choices over the years but he has been able to at least provide tubes the owner could replenish when needed without a herculean effort (which would not be the case with excellent NOS tubes).

Now we have a war in Ukraine that if it has not led to a cessation of distribution from that part of the world to ours has at least caused a  halt to the flow due to hoarding and supply chain issues. And then lo and behold Steve discovers a US company that is cryo treating Eastern European tubes that they seem to be able to offer regularly that he thinks sound great in his components. He's excited by their sound and by the fact that he has a US supplier that he can work with, he communicates with them, and works out a beneficial arrangement. I can imagine a sense of relief and hope this provides. And can imagine an excitement.

I have to say that the Cryotone treated output tubes from Steve are shaping up to be a bit better than the un-treated and if the longevity claimed is true will at least be cost-effective in the long run. And I'm trying the input tubes again with different voltage regulation tubes and rectifiers with these new output tubes and I've tamed some of the brightness that caused me to pull these out repeatedly before. I'm giving them another chance because there ARE qualities of these tubes that are extra-ordinary.

It's not easy to be a small company and flourish. Decware is managing these changes probably better than another management might. I've cut them slack in certain ways, I've enjoyed their products for over two decades and am excited about another on the horizon I'm in the queue for--that I can use American tubes with.

I didn't say that Cryotone was using American tubes, I said they were using Eastern European tubes. As many other companies do: Sovtek, Mullard, Tung-Sol, all these "reissue brands" are I think owned by US companies using European tubes. (In my final paragraph when referring to US tubes I was referring to being able to use Western Electric tubes in the Sarah amp).

I agree that cryo treatment won't make a JJ tube sound like a true Telefunken NOS etc. Cryo treatment doesn't have those magic abilities. I think the description could have been more accurately written to indicate that the treatment will improve the sound and longevity of tubes putting them on a higher plane such as the best NOS tubes. That would be more accurate and defensible. To be honest I too don't agree with his "it doesn't matter" statement--I can only imagine how one of the best NOS tubes I use would sound with the sort of careful "recipe" of treatment. But I know how expensive that would be, and what a challenge for Cryotone to have a stock to experiment with and "waste" some.

Again, I don't see Steve's comments about my own comments in the same way, but you're "out" of the thread so no reason to go into that.

I'm used to how Steve thinks and writes after reading his words since '97. And I'm used to his infrequent trips into the forum and missing questions and comments. Perhaps that is why my reactions are dissimilar. We agree in large part and are on the same team. I'd like to see Decware grow gracefully and see Steve be able to continue to pursue his real passion: exploring the sonic possibilities of tube circuits and always improving via experimentation and trial and error.

I've been reading this thread with great interest. I'm with Lon (I'm paraphrasing now, so if this comes across as what I think rather than him, that's fine with me) in that if cryo-treatment works, all it can do is to (hopefully) turn a tube into a cleaner version of itself. Philosophically speaking, cryo-treatment may serve as an equalizer to some extent in that ideally, the treatment may get rid of resonances/distortion/harmonics (but then, that's the aspect Steve mentions in the video: lower distortion may not be preferable in everyone's book when "better" sound is the equivalent of a less "tubey" sound). Having said all this, it makes sense to want to cryo-treat a tube whose sound one likes versus one whose sound one doesn't like. For this reason, I'm primarily tempted to try a pair of cryoed (is that terminologically correct in English?) 6P15P-ER and, if it becomes available, 6N1P-EV. Oh and Lon, of course you have at least one follower!  ;)

Greetings from Switzerland, David.

Firstly, Lon has paid me $100 to make posts supportive of his opinion that the Cryotone JJ’s sound bright.   Or perhaps overly detailed, which is similar to bright.  They did not work for me, but I appreciate they could be excellent for someone else.

I’m a hired forum gun, a mercenary, who has no valid opinions of his own.  Instead I make my spending money by accepting paid sponsorships by folks like Lon.

Thank you Lon.

In my opinion, which may or may not be my actual opinion, while both fine chaps, Steve and Don have a financial conflict of interest in this debate.   I’m not alluding to anything nefarious, but rather to an inherent bias.  Therefore they’re point of view should be viewed in that light.

The only way to get to the bottom of the Cryotone question would be for an independent third party to compare, both in measurements and blind listening tests, the same tube both before and after the Cryotone treatment.

I’m not clear if my distaste was for JJ’s, or the Cryotone treatment, or both.

But alas, that will never happen.  Therefore we are left to try the Cryotone offerings out for ourselves under their generous no risk return policy.

It’s really that simple.   Not sure what the fuss is about.  Some like red wine, others white. Some will always prefer NOS. Who cares!?

Also, EVERYONE’S opinions ought to be welcome, even if they run against the company line.

One thing I dislike far more than a displeasing tube, is when tribal factions form on these forums and dissent is snuffed out like a rhinoceros on fire duty in The Gods Must Be Crazy.

And indeed, after reading this thread, the Gods must be crazy.

It’s just a tube.  

What I take most offense to is the notion that I’m a follower of Lon, when clearly, Lon is a follower of me.

Anthem for those who like the view:

Follow The Fold

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eMyy8rFnb54

May the peace of Lon be upon you.

Anywho, back to tubes.  This is my first foray into tube rolling.  I spent $220 on CryoTone, and now another $205 on NOS from Brent Jesse (Amperex and Mullard).  The Amperex is a 1963 Bugleboy made for Tektronix.  The top end is certainly smoother than the CryoTone, and while I like the tube, it has not blown me away.  The 1966 Blackburn Mullard is breaking in, so we shall see what it gets us.

But so far, for the CSP3, my favorite input tube - by far - has been the humble stock Decware tube.  If the Mullard doesn't grab me, I'll be inclined to simply seek out more of the stock tubes.  To my tastes, the sound is tremendous.  

I'm not sure if the ones on the Decware website (6N1P-EV) are the same as my stock tube which has very little writing.

While looking at the Decware replacement tubes, I saw this quote:

"Compared to other exotic tubes, for around the same money you can have these superior sounding and longer lasting CRYOTONE tubes from Wathen Audiophile.

They make Decware amplifiers and preamps sound better than anything you can put in one!"


You know, I understand that this is a business and that marketing is required to sell product.  But goodness, that statement is applying the salesmanship a bit thick for me.  "..sound better than anything you can put in one" is such a sweeping, nearly impossible to be true statement.

How can any one brand of tube be the absolute best there is????  I'm not clear why the marketing needs to go so far in its claims.  It has a schtick quality to it that seems unnecessary.

I totally get having CryoTone as a good option to try.  But that's a far cry from being the best possible tube, in the world, that can go in a Decware amp.  I find such a statement not credible in its fundamental structure, on multiple fronts.  I could pick it apart line by line - it's a mess!

It enters terrain even Kevin Deal dare not tread.

JBzen,

Huh?  I own a CSP3, and a ZRock and have owned a ZBox.  It's a silly word game to parse my assessment of the marketing quote because I only own 2 Decware pieces, but not an amp.  The marketing blurb did not intend to say that CryoTone is the best possible tube for Decware amps, but not Decware preamps or tube EQ's.  The quote is stating essentially that CryoTone is the best possible tube for all Decware gear.

The point is that there's no such thing as the "universally best tube brand" for any brand of gear.  It does not exist.  There can be a personal favorite, sure.  But universal?  Impossible.  

Steve could say that he likes CryoTone tubes.  That's a fair statement.  But to imply that CryoTone is the best possible tube to put into a Decware amp, is a ludicrous-reaching-too-far-for-the-sake-of-schtick statement.  Lon and I both are proof that not everyone thinks that way, and therefore, our position undoes the universal claims of the marketing blurb.

The "best" is entirely in the eye and ear of the beholder.  And the notion that any one particular brand of tube somehow beats all other brands, either new production, or new old stock, is at face value an absurd, impossible to be true statement.  

Do not underestimate the underlying financial and convenience of access to tubes dynamic that CryoTone provides Decware and how that influences Steve's dramatic overstatement.

Obviously Steve and Don have formed a partnership of some sort and they're trying to sell the CryoTone idea to the Decware customer base.  That's totally fine.  But doing so need not require resorting to ridiculous and exaggerated marketing speak.

Even Kevin Deal, the schtick-master himself, would never declare one brand of tubes (NOS or present) better than all other brands for PrimaLuna amps.  No credible tube dealer would ever declare such a thing.  Because such a thing is fundamentally impossible to be true due to the HUGE dynamic of personal, entirely subjective taste.  

Steve has no ill intent.  He's just being sloppy with his words.

We have clearly run out off meaningful things to discuss or better yet meaningful ways to discuss them.  Can't we all just get along and drop the verbal gymnastics?  You know, express our opinions and perceptions, and aknowledge that most, if not all, of this is as much art and science.  Just sayin'....

But hell what do I know I'm new here.

ChrisC

DS I think you , Lon and a couple others have made your point ( laced with a lot of sarcasm I might add ). You’re obviously very articulate, clever and have a way with words but enough already .  With all due respect I think you’re beating a dead horse at this point . You’ve tried to dress up your comments very nicely but you must admit you are essentially questioning Steve’s integrity - implying that Steve’s recommendation of Cryotone tubes is opportunistic and has more to do with making a buck then him simply expressing his genuine enthusiasm for Cryotone . I watched Steve’s Cryotone video again on YouTube  .
His enthusiasm for the Cryotone’s  seemed completely genuine and he was simply sharing his excitement.  I believe he stated very clearly in that video that he could totally understand that some listeners might prefer a more typically rich toned tube over  Cryotone but in his opinion Cryotone was technically superior ( quieter with less distortion) .
I give Steve great credit for remaining silent while continuing to allow you and others to post your rather cavalier and sanctimonious opinions/criticism freely

Steve, thank you for your response. Your points are well taken too. Lawyer sarcasm aside, I appreciate that you spoke to each significant point. We can agree to disagree on points of context. Your intent is only known by you. You provided clarification, which is greatly appreciated.

Thanks again for addressing my concerns.

Peace

So here’s my experience with Cryotone, but before I get into that let me start by explaining my system. I’ve got a 25th anniversary ZMA fed directly by a Sonnet Morpheus DAC- no preamp, which has a Sonnet Herms streamer on the front end. The ZMA is driving a pair of Lee Origin S10. I’ve got Jena Labs Pathfinder I.C. From the Herms to the ZMA and Silversmith speaker cables. I have a pair of REL G-2 subs to augment the bass. I’ve had the REL’s for several years as my system has evolved and I’ve never tried the Lee’s on their own- I just like how the REL’s integrate with these speaker. I also have a stock Zstage- using Jena Labs Symphony IC from the Zstage to the ZMA. My first experience with Cryotone was a 12AU7 tube for the Zstage. As reported earlier in this thread at first I noticed more detail, which was a good thing, but after about four hours my system totally changed and the soundstage took on a transformation that was nothing short of remarkable. What I thought was a very good system turned into t a musical beast. The soundstage now went way beyond the outsides of the speakers.  Now I’m hearing even more detail not just in micro dynamics, but things like the reverb of a guitar and the texture of drums all have a profound realism. I was so excited about this new tube I couldn’t wait to order a set of input tubes, which I ordered four, and when I received them I excitedly installed them And was rather disappointed. they brought more detail out, but adding some brightness to the top end. Not at all volumes, but only when I was really rockin. I was using a set of Gold Lion KT88’s as the driver tubes and lived with this setup for about fifty hours and ended up replacing them with a set of Electro-harmonix 6CA7’s, which softened things up a bit, but things just seemed off. The new tubes just threw everything off. I lived with this setup for while and didn’t connect with the sound. Don’t get me wrong- it sounded darn good, but my system lost the magic I experienced with the first Cryotone tube. I put the KT88’s back in and removed the Zstage. This changed things for the better- not quite the same magic I first experienced ,but closer. The brightness was tamed a bit more, but the music still sounded just slightly off- like the timing was off.
This got me thinking about my room- which has sounds treatments on the back, side walls and the ceiling above the speakers and centered between them. My speakers are 7’ apart and 4’ from the back wall and about 3’ from the side walls. The toe-in is angled so the speaker pointed to an intersection just behind my head. Last week I moved the speakers one foot closer to the back wall maintaining the same intersection point just behind me this helped some, but made the base a little boomy. Actually kinda obnoxious on some songs. Tonight I moved the right speaker out another 6” and changed to toe-in dematically so it’s now it intersects in front of me and HOLLY CRAP everything snapped back into focus and that magic was back and then some.  Every sibilance of brightness disappeared, cymbol strikes sounds cleaner and much more metallic, the boomy base is gone and now has more depth and texture than anything I’ve heard in my room. I’m extremely happy I didn’t give up on these tubes and spent a little time adjusting things to meet their needs. This has been eye opening and is equivalent of a major component upgrade. I will be purchasing a set of Cryotone output tubes, which this time last week isn’t something I was entertaining.

Gentlemen, thank you for bringing this thread back on track.  Last night I caught up on the recent posts and felt that the purpose of this forum had been compromised possibly beyond repair.  Today some hope has been restored.

Once upon a time I could visit dealers and hear components for myself. Distribution of music consisted of going to the record stores.  Surround sound consisted of "4 channel" to which video was added and that became a branch unto itself.  Then came digital - UGH!!!

Things have changed. Thankfully digital has improved.  Now auditioning components in person is severely limited.  That leaves the online experience and forums such as this which requires that we learn to use posts as a starting point to develop our systems. It also means that we will be making adjustments and changes as we purchase components.  That has not changed.  I recall that even with the in person experience I was rolling components as there was no guarantee that I would experience in my home what I did in the dedicated auditioning rooms.

Some of these changes will be made in our rooms as did PDXDrew.  I had exactly the same experience as Drew had with exactly the same CryoTone 12AU7-WCL.  Other changes will involve more based on information presented in posts. Therefore, information that is posted has to be objective and limited to the items and not the assumed intentions of the maker (no sarcasm intended).  When that has been the case I have benefited.

A comment that Lon made on my review of the Omega Vintage 8HO speakers with the CryoTone tubes in my system actually helped to crystallize what I was trying to achieve... "you are the microphone".  I have experienced this in the past but trying to replicate it has been extremely challenging.

Hopefully we can stay on track.  

Not directly Cryotone related, but the idea of moving speakers around in conjunction with rolling tubes had never occurred to me. I did just that after putting some new power tubes in my UFOs and the sound went from great to "face melting" as Steve might say. Just a reminder of how much great information is available on these fora.

Because not all metal is made of the same alloys.  Different alloys react differently to processing whether that be heat treating, tempering or cryogenic treatment.

The first thing to be determined before processing of any kind is the alloy composition of the metal from which something is made including the metal used in tube plates and wire.  THEN, in the case of vacuum tubes, one has to figure out how to get past the vacuum to get to the right temperature hot or cold depending on the process.  It appears that you have very little understanding of these processes and the time and costs involved.  

Comments of the kind that you are making regarding cryogenic treatment are best ignored which is what I for one will be doing moving forward.  

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Its only a small part of the tube (the cathode) that gets red hot, and it most does chemistry (cooking electrons off the cathode coating) not really "electronics." The rest of the tube guts: the plate and the grids and the connecting wires don't get nearly that hot. Presumably that is where whatever magic the cryo treatment does happens.