Steve said:  
"Something about walnut that I have not found a finish that I like (poly/shellac/lacquer) because it makes it look fake, brings out a purple plastic veil that I can't stand."

This is so much my own reaction. Here is the answer I found.
I once redid an old shotgun stock by following the method recommended to me by a gunsmith. I will credit his name as soon as I remember it.
The method is: First make the walnut smooth with a cabinet scraper followed by steel wool down to 4/0. Mix Linseed oil and varnish half & half.  Wipe this on the wood and then scrub the wood with steel wool until wood dust mixes with the oiled varnish to form a thin paste. This will fill the pores. Now strike this mess off with a paper card or a stiff paper wad. Those hard surface paper napkins found in diners were recommended. This first application fills perhaps 20% of the pores. Let it dry overnight. Do it again tomorrow and perhaps as many as five times total.  The result has a wonderful silken feel. It looks nice, but somewhat satin. For a higher shine buff it with wax.

That oak is beautiful!

Brian

Brian, that's an old trick apparently.  25+ yrs ago my cabinet maker recommended a similar recipe he got from an "old" woodworker.  Great for an "oil" finish that needs to hold up with water present.

Another nice walnut finish is to use a gel stain (the gel stains have a lot of body and do some pore filling) with a wax top coat.  Wax also fills.

There is something there.  That was a flip comment.  Sorry.  

It rolls off gradually below 60Hz.  I'd believe you could hear something at 30hz.  If I had these on the floor again, they would definitely measure more bass.

Every now and again, I flip on the subs to fill in down low.  They integrate pretty well, but something is bothering me.  Until I figure it out, I have been fine with listening without those lower frequencies.

Posted by: Palomino      Posted on: Today at 17:08:07
Every now and again, I flip on the subs to fill in down low.  They integrate pretty well, but something is bothering me.  Until I figure it out, I have been fine with listening without those lower frequencies.

I have subs in the corners, more or less, and the big OB's in front.  What's different is the sub's are now mixing with the audio off the REAR of the OB speakers, which is 180 degrees out of phase to what I'm use to.  Phase reversing the subs amp seems to solve the discrepancy.

My response seems to match yours, with "Nothing under 50hz".  Although I'd add "and darn little under 70hz".

Steve...

I've decided to skip Decfest this year!  Because I can already see it coming... if I attend, I will think I have to have a pair of at least one of these OB's you're developing.  Just what I need.. another set of speakers to add to the 9 pair I already have...!

Portable damping:
I have found these to be quite handy for numerous things... in addition to what I originally bought them for - my other hobby.
https://www.caldwellshooting.com/rests/shooting-rests/lead-sled-weight-bag-stand...
you can fill them with lead shot, steel shot, sand. etc.  I've even used polymer beads if you want some damping/vibration absorption with less weight.  Once filled you can easily move them around and place them in different locations to see if adding mass/damping makes a difference and where it might be most effective.

For those of you contemplating brass products from Eden Sound - don't hesitate.  I had him make me up some custom brass footers with interchangeable feet - rounded (half spheres) and tall carpet piercing spikes.  He was nothing but professional, courteous and speedy.  He fixed me up with a set of footers that are a combination of his Radiused Bearpaws and his Deep Carpet Penetrators - I can change between the radiused bottom and the pointed bottom.

Mapleshade is also another source of brass footers/weights... I bought a pile of their products used off of Audiogon.

I almost always mount drivers from the back of the baffle, especially in my Trio baffles which use a secondary baffle/mounting plate to attach the driver/s to the main baffle.  This allows two things:
1) relatively quick changes of various drivers - just make mounting plates for each set of drivers.  I currently can run my Audio Nirvana cast frame 15's, 12" Alnico's, 8" Betsy's or a 8" Betsy W.O.W and Dayton AMT combo just by swapping out the drivers which are mounted to their individual mounting plates which are then attached to the back of the main Trio baffle.  If any of you have Hawthorne Audio OB's... you can likely do this.
2) you can play around with the "tension" that the driver is mounted to the main baffle with.  Kind of what Steve is talking about making rigid clamps to hold the drivers to the baffle.  With the Hawthorne Audio Trio mounting method, you can vary the material between the driver, the baffle and the mounting plate, as well as the tension/how tight you attach the driver/mounting plate to the main baffle.

I have typically followed the original designers(Darrel Hawthorne) practice of isolating/damping the driver/mounting plate from the main baffle.  I have used various materials between the back of the main baffle and the driver mounting plate and sometimes even between the mounting plate and the driver.  I tend to try/experiment with whatever I might have laying around the shop leftover from other projects.
I have used closed cell neoprene foam, cork, Hush Mat https://hushmat.com/ (a product similar to Geno's Rockwell stuff), Corian-like hard-surface cabinet top material, masonite, concrete foundation gasket material (a heavy duty closed cell foam), particle board, OSB... whatever leftovers from other projects I might have laying around that looks interesting.  No point in hauling the stuff to the dump if I can find a hobby use for it.

Just my experience, everyone else's may be different, but attaching drivers directly to baffles has induced very undesirable buzzing/resonances that originated from various places on the baffle. And this was with my Trio baffles which weigh over 100 lbs and have sand filled side rails and are covered with two layers of felt front and back.  I suppose with enough experimentation, you could take advantage of this resonance if you can get it tuned to a desirable frequency and at an appropriate level.  I've had better luck (and faster) damping/absorbing/moving/reducing/draining away the vibration/resonance that caused the audible buzzing of the baffle structure.

You can get cork from Bangor Cork - https://www.bangorcork.com/
you can get high quality cork from these guys in all kinds of thicknesses, widths and lengths, rolls, etc.
I have purchased sheet and roll cork from these guys in various thicknesses - good product, fast service - no hesitation.
I use a layer of cork on top of all the shelves of my equipment racks.
The manufacturer of the Betsy drivers recommends cork on the back side of an OB baffle.  I have seen it mentioned it other OB designs as well.

Too bad you are skipping MD.  I'd like to hear your thoughts on these drivers vs others you have used.

Thanks for the cork source.  Seems like reasonable pricing.

I have my drivers mounted from the front and directly to the baffles.  I haven't noticed any buzzing but it'd be easy enough to slip a thin layer of cork behind them.  What are others doing in this regard with the F15s?  I wouldn't want to mess up any beneficial coupling either.

I'll leave it for now.  I covered the underside of my isolation platform tops with the Bituthene (viscoelastic with a plastic membrane on one side) and they still resonate.  Just a different frequency.  Damping is hard to get when you want it.

Quote:


Too bad you no longer have a Raven around to help you figure those issues out...

I was listening to Daft Punk last night in my dining room, full of boxes and bins still as I'm still unpacking, and that one bass note that usually drops hit just so nicely in this little room! Nothing but DS, Zen, El Camino.

1 1/2" hard maple butcher block.  If you meant the platforms, they are 3/4" plywood.

Tonight I was able to get the bases assembled so that the speakers can stand upright. Walnut is a really soft wood apparently, because I scratched the crap out of one side just sliding it around on my somewhat soft workbench top. I had to sand out almost the whole thing... this is a nice thing about oil, you can go in and repair things like that without too much trouble.



Archie, just for you, if you look carefully on the table top next to the hammer is a perfect 1/2 hole that matches the one in the baffle that I've sense plugged. I haven't decided if I'm going to leave it like it is and tell people it was a bullet hole, or turn it into a knot. I spent about an hour hand-painting knots on the second baffle to give it a better match to this one (I know, ballsy right?)

I'll post a picture of that once I get the finish repaired from having to sand out all the scratches. BTW, the oak doesn't scratch. It drills and cuts like cast iron, while the Walnut cuts almost just like pine.

Steve

It's got a good meaty look to it.

Steve

Also on an interesting note, I have been finding myself really missing the "hit" from the F15 drivers and despite the insane imaging of the array and the top end, I think I'm going to re-install the F15 drivers back into the Big Betsy baffles already.  I enjoy listening to Randy's baffles he made for me by themselves with of course a wider placement.



I can create this same exact soundstage with only the small baffles, simply placed  farther apart with more toe-in. The lower registers can be easily put into the mix with one of Randy's subs which are small and easy to overlook. How do you think this soundstage happened with the Array? Certainly wasn't from the 15 inch woofers that don't go much past 500Hz ; )

Anyway, getting back to the switch over back the the F15 drivers -- I wasn't really expecting to feel this way so soon, but it's probably going to happen tomorrow afternoon. The array is really good, but since it uses a low-efficiency high roll-off woofer in the Big Betsy baffle, while nice, it pales in impressiveness to the F15 fitted Big Betsy baffles. I've never heard an open baffle sound as good, so I have to go back to having it again.

You could get to 95% of this exact result with a pair of Randy's subs driven passively with no additional amplifier, as I did here... so as I mentioned before I feel like using the Big Betsy baffles as the bass modules for this array is a total waste of hardwood.

Steve

I have a pair of the Lii Audio Crystal-10 Flagship drivers (10") on order.  These will replace the 15" Hawthorne Audio "Augie" bass  drivers in my Bubinga Caintuck Audio OB's.  I ordered a 3/4" thick Baltic Birch plywood ring from www.craftcuts.com which will be cut to my specs to allow these 10"  drivers to mount up to my Bubinga baffles.  I will treat the rings with Linseed oil, then beeswax in Caintuck Randy fashion.

These will become the new speakers for my ZMA.  They are pricey but I have a really good feeling about these drivers from Lii Audio.  

Stunning work Steve.  Very rich looking.  Thanks for sharing the build notes/pictures.

Well, my "Crystal Betsy" project has officially begun....

I got notice that the Lii Audio Crystasl-10, 10" full range drivers I ordered shipped today from Lii Audio via UPS.  Not sure the transit time.  

I removed (sold) the 15" Augie bass drivers from my Bubinga baffles.  I ordered a 16" outer diameter/9.85" inner diameter Baltic Birch plywood ring to attach to the baffle in order to the Crystal-10's.

I used to have my DM946's sitting on top of these twisted wood pedestals (see pic below).  I'm going to mount the baffle base to the top of these pedestals using large threaded brass weights I purchased from Eden Sound.  I will drill four holes from the top of the baffle base down into the top of the wood pedestals.  I will then use four threaded nut inserts in the pedestal to take the 1/4"-20 all-thread rods that will be attached to the brass weights.  I am essentially going to screw down the brass weights from the top to couple the baffle base to the pedestal.  This will put the drivers at ear height when I'm seated.  Hope to have everything done in the next week or so.  

Quote:
"What might be a typical frequency for bass in most music?  I read the bass guitar goes just under 50 Hz."

Hi Archie,
The lowest note on a treble guitar is 80Hz if it has standard tuning. To me, that is a very bassy note. When a bass guitar plays it's 50Hz note, that of course is the lowest note on the guitar. Most of what we hear from a bass guitar would be higher than that.  

Brian

Had a demo tonight, and Daft Punk was requested, which sounded very good, the particular cuts that were played, and it made me want to hear it again after they left, but turned up a bit (which I should have probably done during the demo). So off I went, with the newly restored Big Betsy /F15 combo and I wasn't disappointed. Then about an hour later after a nice break, I realized I have that album in 200Gram pressings that I haven't even heard yet. I started with side 3 and 4 and to be honest it sounded a bit heavy and a bit dull.  In some ways the digital sounded better, crisper. I was thinking boy, this pressing isn't really all that great, I've certainly heard a lot better on my vinyl rig before... Then I played side 1 and 2 which were noticeably better, but still all night with this album there was a slight bloat in the mid-bass making an otherwise stellar sound a little less stellar.

So, a nice hour of listening but I've heard better... then the last song on side two, I had the idea to turn up the volume. Now keep in mind it was on 9 out of 10 already, and I was simply amazed all evening that the amplifier never clipped. Anyway, I'm using the 25th Anniversary Zen Triode 2 watt amplifier driven directly from the phono-stage which is why it's so amazing to hear music this forceful and room filling with no clipping. It would in fact be an accomplishment for even our 40 watt amp. Anyway, I turned up the volume 3dB to max and the amp still wouldn't clip. Sounded better in fact, the bass starting to tighten further. About that time I decided to check the bias switch on the front to see which setting it was in, and it was in the soft setting. I turned it to the hard setting and the amp just began to clip, so I backed the volume back one click and sat down.

The sound after this adjustment was transformative. The frequency balance became perfect, everything locked in. The energy was intense, I could feel it in my chest and bones yet the music wasn't any louder than before, it just had so much SERIOUS CRUNCH to it, that I was simply stunned.  First I couldn't believe how good the pressing was that an hour ago I thought almost sucked. But mostly, just the incredible sound and dynamic expression with perfect balance made it expressively clear that this combo, the 25th Anniversary Zen Triode amplifier and the Big Betsy baffles at 100 real dB have more hit, more crunch, more scale, more slam, and do it in a more gracefully way than any combination I have heard to date, including my reference full-range Electrostats with servo-charged 5000 volt tube amps. It is just unbelievable. And it's just unbelievable how in the same night on the same gear you can rate an LP pressing only a 6 and an hour later after flicking one switch, rate the same pressing a 10++ not to mention it sounded like someone came in a put better speakers in the room.

I have listened to Daft Punk, and lots of really hard hitting disco music with our bigger amps on virtually all of our speakers over this many years and it's always brought big smiles to my face, but now I'm still too shocked to smile because I am hearing this anniversary edition 2 watts spank the ass of every Decware amp ever made except for the ominous OTL of which only one exists in the universe.  When I say spank the ass of, I not only mean sound better, I mean hit harder, I mean get louder, I mean sound bigger, I mean exhibit less compression, I mean do it with ease.

This really makes me wonder what would have happened had these drivers been available 20 years ago and of course these magic shaped baffles. I can literally see Decware having evolved around one amp and one pair of speakers because it's that good.  I don't know how it does it.  I defys all logic.  

Trust me, this years DECFEST 2019 / first weekend in October is going to short everyone out so bad they're not going to know what hit them.  Between the amp and the speakers it will be like seeing a UFO for real, because it's just that incredible.

Also after listening tonight I realized another good name for these speakers would be "CAPTAIN CRUNCH".

Steve

I figured out what was off when I was trying to use the subs.  The cross-over was set too low and there was a hole in the sound as a result.  I tried different crossover points and the one which sounds best right now is 83Hz.  Higher than I expected.

I also tried the bias switch in the other position with Daft Punk.  I liked what I heard.  I did also turn it up a bit and that helped bring out more details and slam.

I do think that these drivers should come with a warning label: your 2 watt zen amp will drive these speakers without distortion into the 95+db range and you may not notice it.  Please use caution when rocking out.

The album I was listening to this morning was Random Access Memories.  The tracks which I felt best demonstrated the effect were Giorgio and Instant Crush.

Thanks for the link Archie.  I will use that in my build.  I may go get wood this weekend.

I offered $12.  We'll see.

+1 on Quadrophenia.  I have it in both vinyl and CD rip.  I have listened to that album a lot - mostly when I was young.  But now I'll have to listen to it with these drivers.  Maybe even break out the TT.

I listened to it last night and I heard the guy walk from left to right across a shingle beach.  I could hear the rocks crunch under his feet.  I've listened to this album for 45+ years and never heard that before.  Or at least I never noticed it.  There is a difference.  Once I "hear" something with a better set up I can go back and find it was there all along but somehow never came into focus.

Donnie, I have a huge 2 1/2"+ slab like that and I had the same thought.  A pair of speakers would be immovable!

Thanks Dank.  I have seen this before.  I thought there was a key though that referred to the bar colors, like first harmonic, etc.  Am I just missing it?

Edit:  I see it now.  Its in the bar for the male voice at the top.