Now to get them breaking-in and do some casual listening! If they don't make me smile in the first 5 minutes the design will have been a failure and my fears about thin sound will be realized. Thankfully I choose to dwell on the likelihood that just the opposite will happen proving the Audio Gods know a lot more about it than I do.

After all, coming from the Big Betsy -- some of you already know how high that sets the bar -- these are going to have to be really good just to survive.

Steve

Agreed. I knew that the first time I heard them. And this is the process. I already know if these Crystal 10 baffles sound good they will be a popular alternate for people. I was able to lift them without issues, they fit through even smaller doorways and would not dominate a room as much. These came out a lot smaller than I was originally hoping for, but as mentioned in earlier posts the difference in size probably wouldn't have been enough to make it worth having two baffles so similarly sized.

Steve

Steve, you can always make a fixture and try them in the big baffles.

Well, Good News! The Audio Gods were right and I was wrong. After about an hour of warming up with stringed instruments only, I went into the room to listen.

A song called Nexus by Daniel Voth was playing. It started out warm and big as the result of a loud chorus recorded perhaps inside a church and done at a level that easily saturated the recording space, a sound that you would normally blame on speaker cone breakup or box resonance. The sound was almost thick and dull as a result but then transitions into some solo guitar work with graduating layers of dynamics each slightly louder than the previous one and the contrasting clarity was a nice trick to really get your attention. At around the 3 minute mark my head exploded! I had to pause it and walk around in circles for awhile which is what happens to me when I hear something happen that I've never heard before.

I've never heard anything this good so soon in the game and there is a very obvious difference between the sound of these and virtually every other driver I've heard to date, which would account for these pre-burned-in results. This on drivers only an hour or two out of the box.  I'll talk about this more as we get into it.

Hehe, no worries about the bass with these speakers, everything is well balanced already.  

So far I have sat in the sweet spot and listened for exactly 3 minutes.  I'll pop in there several more times throughout the evening, perhaps better armed with some Depends.

Steve

I looked up that piece of music and hell, it sounds good on my crappy computer speakers.  I can see why it stunned you.

I’ve been following this thread with interest and I had a good gut feeling about the Crystal 10.  The large baffle is too big for my space and I felt that a smaller version with the Crystal 10 might do the trick.

This may be way out there but I have to ask...

What about two Crystal 10’s in each baffle, one rolled off with an inductor similar to the design of the S3HOXRS?  Even if the baffle is slightly taller but no wider than the Walnut/Oak baffle.

Yes the cost would increase but would the results justify the added costs?

Ah yes, the ZR2 and the mid range.  For me, one of the two curves really sweetens that up.  Switch down.  I think the opposite curve than I would have thought.  I've always wondered if it was wired reversed.

I'm really looking forward to the F15/CR-10 shootout.

Great news! Another exciting moment in Decware history.

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We are making the assumption the sound will improve with the added bass, but despite that it might not. I thought "IF, I could only have one pair", I would probably do just that, but now I realize it could be a trick. I would need to hear the two side by side or in back to back sessions and see what jumps out as the trade-offs in both configurations because it's possible that for whatever reason I might like the sound better from the smaller baffles do to the proportioning accuracy with the main driver.  

And the reality is that the F15 loaded Big Betsy has the hit that nothing else, not even other 15 inch drivers can match. It's that hit and even keeled midrange that I love about it. It makes classic rock sound like we all remember it, so again, I would loose that even if the Crystal 10 was in a bigger baffle.  That's what I mean, you will have to have both.  Personally, I would take all the other speakers out of the room before I choose between one or the other of these insane baffles!

One thing I did actually do as an experiment with the Caintuck Audio Betsy Alnico baffles was to use the F15 in the Big Betsy as bass augmentation crossed over at 90Hz driven in parallel by the same amplifier. It worked really well (really well). So a similar thing could be done with these if you were so motivated.


Steve

OK, someone's messing with me.  Listening to Luca Stricagnoli - Snow (Hey Oh) and the bass is ... crap it sounds like the Big Betsy's are hooked up.  I am catching myself looking in there as if somehow one of these glances the Big Betsys will be hooked up explaining what I hear and then somehow rationalizing the memory loss of having switched the speakers, but no, they just set there like in the picture.  Holy hell, these things really do hit.  Now I feel embarrassed for doubting the baffle size.  It sounds just like the Big Betsys in the bass but with a words can't describe it sounding everything else.  

I don't know how it's doing it, but this is just over the top.  Rainfall - Adrian Bellue. Where is all this weight coming from?  Ahh ha, it was the ZROCK2.  A nice performance without it, but much drier sounding.  Man, the resolution of these speakers is magnifying the effect of the ZROCK2 midrange healing powers a lot!  But also the bass is just insanely good and serious.

Imaging is fantastic.  A beautiful large sound stage being painted by Luna - Sergio Altamura as the sound finds the boundaries of the recording space.  The room sounds as beautiful as the guitar.

Steve

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Hi Pal,

Yes to all of the above .....

While I am a big fan of my low profile baffles for a variety of reasons, the availability of 3/4" stock is a primary reason.
It also holds down shipping and build costs for speakers that are intended to be affordable for most music lovers.

I know for a fact that "everything" makes a difference in speaker construction ..... and thicker baffles certainly have an effect on the sound, but my guess is that it makes a much larger difference in baffles that are larger than the ones I am building.

It will be very, very interesting to compare the sound of the various baffles that will be available at Decware Fest 2019 .....

Best wishes,
Randy

That could be very cool.  

I'll take my direction from Steve.  I have brought speakers/equipment in the past and its lead to a bit of a cluster.  

I will definitely be able to say that BBBs or MBB provide the effect I am describing.

Pal,  I'm leaning in the same direction as you... I think it's hardwood that makes it happen the most, and I believe the thickness should be determined by the height and width of the baffle. The Big Betsy Baffles are 1-3/4 while the Crystal 10 baffle is 1-1/2. My gut feeling is that had I made the smaller Crystal 10 baffle 1-3/4 it would not work as well.

I suspect that you will know after you listen to my Big Betsy if there is a difference worth chasing. Problem is you won't know if it's the difference in thickness, or the high mass bass the baffle is secured to, (or both).  But the main thing is you will know if they sound a lot different or not and that is the first step. If they sound basically the same then we'll know it must be pretty forgiving.

Steve

I'm almost on pins and needles over the F15 vs CR10 comparison.  If one is the clear "winner" than I might be looking at another baffle build to fine tune or change over.  Some of my early questions are regarding the use of the ZROCK2.  How they both compare with and without.  And how the CR10 does with a different amp.  I'm assuming, Steve, that you are using the Zen-25 right now for the CR10.  I wonder how they will do with more power and whether other amps can control the bass.

My brass weights are due today so I'll see what an additional 14 lbs per baffle, strategically place on the back, does to the sound.  I already know what the weight will do to my ability to lift these beasts!

I can't say yes or no.  These are a very different sensation than my other speakers, including the radial HR1s.  My experience isn't so much physical as mental/aural.  I "see" the music laid out in front of me almost like each piece has a vertical and horizontal position.  I can go more into the music like the tesseract in the movie Interstellar.  This might be your normal given your treated room but for me, the last time I heard it like this was in the early 80s and I had some help form an "outside influence."  

Closeup of a typical weight.

Folks, anybody installed Big Betsy's these on speaker spikes? The reason I am asking is because the large front face presented by these OB speakers would be prone to cause the speaker structure as a whole to vibrate and move (micro movements) and spikes might help in anchoring the speaker preventing lateral and transvers micro movements. My feeling is better anchoring will help in making bass tight and improve punch.

Additionally I think that adding brass weights to the back of the these thick rigid baffles is not going to help damp resonances as in the case of the flexible diaphragm test in the video in a post before (the one with sugar sprinkled on a vibrating surface at different frequencies). In that case the diaphragms were chosen because they gave the right amount of flexibility which was needed at the large diaphragm was the main source of sound production. the down side of this flexibility was there were multiple resonant frequency introduced that needed to be damped by strategic weight placement. In the rigid Betsy baffles the sound's origin is mainly the driver directly and less from direct reflections from the baffles surface and the primary purpose of the baffle is in isolating the front sound waves from those emanating from the back (due to the lack of an enclosure). In fact mental modeling suggest that in a rigid baffle the brass weights might if place high up might cause a upside down pendulum effect exacerbating the vibrations .

I get it, also important folks in one's household might not appreciate dibs in the hardwood flooring.

I was only pointing out the sonic benefits leaving everything else because even enclosed speakers with much less of a front surface area and weighing more with 5 to 6 drivers and thick all round enclosure have spikes for this reason.

I have some beautiful spikes for the Big Betsy Baffles I built, but will wait until after this years DECFEST2019 to try them out. They have balls on the tips instead of sharp points that I am certain will do a better job on my floor. I am on a concrete floor with padded carpet and personally I like as much energy in the floor as possible so long as it is congruent with the source.

I don't know what to expect from spiking it because the mass of these things is so great and the focus seems quite good. There will absolutely be a significant change in sound I predict because instead of energy being stored in the bass and becoming scalar against incoming energy, the spikes will drain the energy into the concrete and earth under that. I will be stunned if I don't hear a difference, but I have no idea at this point which will actually sound better. Don't worry I'll let you know this fall when it happens.

Steve

Sorry folks....slow typer...and found several responses as I posted...anyway...

Archie,

I guess it all depends on a lot of things, and it sounds like the wild card of the baffles being an aspect of the transducer presents interesting challenges... shape, mass, thickness, weight...all being players makes sense.

Here, with my brick on sand floors and HR-1s, I tried heavy spikes, and smaller spikes, direct on the floor, and on those little spike protectors, and these were my least favorite feet. They were better than none, but relatively speaking sort of crude and rigid sounding. Then I tired Herbie's gliders and found them to be too damping for my tastes, but better at nuance and fine detail. With a few modifications those got pretty good though...more complete, more nuanced.

Finally I got tired of the "sound" from over-damping (to me), and got some ingress audio threaded, spun aluminum feet with highly polished seats and bearings. I added some relatively rigid sound damping material under them (sound coat) and the sound is quite neutral to me, more articulate, improved bass articulation, more refined and complex timbre, and quite nuanced while not sensing veils. Pretty "right" to me. Limited experience and conditions, but I don't think about changing feet anymore.

I believed you when you said this: "I spent part of the day building isolation platforms for my Big Betsys.  I had do do a "template" base first to fine tune the position of the springs so the things would sit without a tilt.  I'm going to say that isolation was a big success.  Bass is tighter and much less distorted at high volume."

This fits my experience with your springed platform under my CSP3...with a little extra damping feet added, it seems quite balanced and effective to me...I suppose as much as any component foot I have tried. I seem to recall it was close to my favorite of that time, Madscientists best feet (then) under my Torii.

All in all, I seem to be in agreement with you, that I like isolation better than direct coupling, and like a little damping with it, but not much.

I look forward to hearing more on these great baffle experiments and solutions. I seem to be closing in on what may be a good design for a 10" driver, using ideas from this thread and playing with adjustments to better fit my space and room aesthetic.

Thanks to all for this cool thread.

Will

With regard to the differences between the two and how the ZROCK2 plays into it...

The Crystal 10 in the smaller baffle with a ZROCK2 sounds similar to the Big Betsy without a ZROCK2, as predicted by the difference in baffle size and QTS differences in the drivers.

Also the Big Betsy has more weight and hit at lower volumes than the smaller baffle with the Crystal 10 which is to say that low volume listening is better served by the Big Betsy / F15 combo. Naturally if we were running the Crystal 10 in a cabinet instead of an open baffle this would not be the case, it is just the side effect of using a driver with a lower QTS than would be ideal for open baffle use.

Interestingly the tape machines and vinyl rig which are not ZROCKED have a similar density and weight as though they were.

So we're into night two with these speakers and I have my guard up this time and feeling extra critical and picky... what I'm finding is that the gap between good and mediocre recordings is doubled. The good recordings are simply fantastic if not euphoric. They take you where no-one has gone before and like your favorite amusement park ride when you were a kid, you don't want it to stop.

The biggest thrill is that like I had hoped, they have the ability to accelerate and extend high frequency presence like the 8 inch Betsy Alnico drivers used in Randy of Caintuck Audios baffles, but have the efficiency of the Big Betsy and about 72% of the slam which is enough to make someone equally impressed with a 25th Anniversary Zen Triode amplifier on either speaker.  What the Crystal 10 doesn't have in low end slam in these baffles it makes up for in uncanny 8G acceleration into each dynamic that can make close miked acoustic guitar music literally levitate you above your chair.

It has the same Big Betsy energy once you turn it up that has been described here in recent weeks, if not more of it which really lends a tactful experience usually reserved for live music. This kind of energy is easily dulled by unnecessary complexity of which there is none in this set up so everything lights up pretty good including your own body.  

It's just such a game changer to have a crossover-less speaker that's 100dB with body and weight to let our 2 watt Zen Triode Amplifiers actually outperform our larger push pull somewhat legendary amplifiers.  I mean with these speakers the need for a larger amplifier to give you the ability to turn it up louder is eliminated. These speakers paired with our 2 watt Zen Triodes outperform our 94dB DNA2 speakers paired with a TORII MK4 / 25 watt amplifier. It's just such a thrill to get to this level with the 2 watt amps because as we have always known, they actually hit harder than the push pull.

Welcome to the upside-down world of Decware where everything seems backwards when you come from the main stream audio market. And the best part is that it doesn't seem backwards and then in the end prove to have been a bunch of bullshit, instead it seems backwards because it's actually forwards and everything else is backwards. Yes, it's a narrow tunnel leading away from the masses but once you get infected with our passion and insights you'll be empowered to achieve the sound you've always dreamed of in a way that you can financially justify and still afford to feed a friend.

Steve

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Randy, when I scaled your design up to create the Big Betsy, I though the super thick giant mass of hardwood would be like a concrete wall, nearly inert. What I found is that when I wrapped my knuckles on it in the same places as yours, it sounded exactly the same, as though the pitch was nearly matched.  Not higher, not lower.  That suggests to me that if you made your present size baffle double thick it may well not sound as good.  You had to know that the Audio Gods would at some point get bored with me and eventually find similar soles with the same vibration to whisper things to!  It's kind of a trip that they whispered through me to you, and then through you back to me again and here were are enjoying some amazing results.  While I'm sure that everyone at the fest will be impressed with the Big Betsy, I wouldn't get off of one for anything less than 7 grand plus frieght, and that's just a low estimate.  Similar with the Crystal 10 baffles.  Everyone will be stunned, especially those new to good OB designs.  But for probably most attendees it will be the trill of putting in your small 8 inch baffles that as far as I know range around $500~$1000 and after hearing the Big Betsy and thinking nothing has an open sound that images like that and then finding out the sound quality is equally good, equally big, the main difference being how loud they play.  It would be mean to let everyone hear the Big Betsy speakers without being able to take a piece of it home for less than the price of most cables!

Steve

Steve wrote .....

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Hi Steve,

I'm still hoping that you offer these as part of your lineup .....

While I am very comfortable with the segment of the market that has worked for me since 2015, I know that there is a market out there that has deep pockets and is willing to dig into those pockets to satisfy their "audio sweet tooth".

On a pretty regular basis, I get emails requests to make larger open baffle speakers and I would much prefer recommending the BIG BETSY baffles rather than sending them the link to the Pure Audio Project website .....

I also find it interesting that the Betsy baffles are listed in the 2016 Stereo Times "Most Wanted Components" list ..... and there is a pair of speakers in that list that retails for $ 225,000.00 - 250,000.00 ..... so the BIG BETSY baffles would actually be a bargain.

The link can be seen here.

I'm on the same page with Palomino and am very much looking forward to checking out all of my speaker versions with a ZR2 at the Decware Fest in October.

Best wishes,
Randy

Hi Pal,

Yes I will ..... Steve already has a pair of original Betsy baffles and a pair of alnico baffles on site, so the Lii 15 baffles are the only thing I will need to bring.

Looking forward to seeing you,
Randy

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When I said in an earlier post that my test facility was primitive, I wasn't exaggerating, I don't even own a smart phone!

The weights come off with a single screw and I did pull them briefly to double check something and for me, their effect is subtle.  I highly doubt I'd hear a difference with just a single weight.  I tried weights on just one baffle and I couldn't hear a difference between them but a "stereo" test really wasn't a good test.  I'm too impatient for systematic testing anyway.  I'll just go along listening to music and sort of notice changes.  The weights do look cool though and like I knew what I was doing.  

I know we've discussed the question of speaker isolation in other parts of this Forum and the question always gets mixed answers depending on individual experience with our rooms, speakers, floor construction, etc.  As is apparent from some of the pictures I posted, I have a LIVING room for a listening room.  That giant wood stove between my speakers is kind of important in the winter but I'm sure it isn't great for my sound (although I don't "hear" it).

Steve mentioned how the CR-10s widen the gap between well recorded music and so so music and the F15s show this as well.  Every once in a while I wonder what's happened to the magic and think that I've imagined how good the BBs sound.  I think it's also that we get used to the new higher level very quickly.  I've never spent so much time just sitting listening.  It's so enjoyable compared to what I had before -- which arguably, was very good.

Even if $7K + freight is really what these would sell for, the price is justified by the music that they make.


Will, I'm glad that you like that platform.  With a bit of refining, they do what they are designed to do.  But the "sound" result isn't guaranteed.