25th Anniversary Amp UPDATE:

A new picture of the SE84UFO25 in a custom natural Cherry base and black knobs.



The PSVANE 5U4 is the chosen rectifier that will be shipping with this amplifier.  Additionally an 8 pin socket saver will also be supplied so that you can raise the height of the tube as shown in the pictures If you're going to be rolling rectifier tubes the socket saver will protect the main socket from wear.  

Steve

Today was interesting...  I was forced to listen to the ZMA for the first time since creating the SE84UFO25. As those who've been following this thread know I've been putting it off until after the release of the UFO25...  and if that wasn't enough I also for the first time am listening to a pair of UFO25's bridged mono.

A friend from out of state came by today to listen to the new Anniversary amp and the ZMA both paired with the HR-1's.  On the more power hungry HR-1 a single UFO25 did a respectable job but was on the edge of what it could do much of the time in my larger, deader room.  This is what lead to running a pair in mono which we did.

The results were as expected quite good.  So now that we have enough power for the HR-1 in a larger room it became a choice between a pair of UFO25s bridged into mono at 6 watts a channel vs. the Zen Mystery Amp dual mono amplifier at 40 watts a channel.

Took a respectable 10 minutes to choose the UFO25s over the ZMA as the amplifiers to drive the HR-1's !!!  After he left, I had to listen for myself and the difference is definitely there.  As my friend described it, with the UFO25 amps in mono the sound was easy to listen to and you could hear the sounds coming... vs. the ZMA where you didn't hear the sounds coming until they were right there on you making the listening experience more startling. Really one of the best analogies I've heard in a while and totally true.

So again a bitter sweet moment as the UFO25's dust even the ZMA, which is on record at Tone Audio as sounding better than Shindo and Wavac!  This really brings a perspective to the resolution of these Anniversary Zen Triode amplifiers.

Don't worry ZMA owner's it won't take a whole lot to shrink the gap between the two amps, and even a slight narrowing of the gap when leveraged against the 40 watts would be huge.  I will (when it's the right time) do a Zen weekend on it and see how far it can be taken.

This might be a good time to remind all of us that the Zen Triode Amplifier uses a 9800 ohm primary impedance transformer with a 6 ohm secondary and relies on reflected impedance from the loudspeaker to determine what the plate of the output tube actually sees.  The output tube in the Zen would happily operate at maximum efficiency with an impedance of 3300 ohms but instead it sees 9800 which dramatically drops the power but equally dramatically increases the headroom.  This way when an 8 ohm speaker has a dip in the impedance of 2 ohms which is not uncommon, the amplifier's power doubles instead of halves.  This is why a Zen Triode Amp has such excellent bass control and why it can happily drive a nearly dead short.  

Why is this high primary impedance important beyond performance as just described?  Because the higher the impedance the better the high frequency response and that means not only extension but how high frequencies are handled.  The difference between hearing the same output tube with 3300 ohms vs. 9800 ohms is a beautifully long shimmering decay in the top end that hangs notes in space for all to see and digest while the  3300 focuses your attention on the mid bass with dumbed down top end magic.

All of the bigger amps / tubes use much lower impedances.  For example the EL34 uses 3300 , the KT66 in the ZMA uses  4000 and the TORII JR and MK4 uses 6000.  All of these are a long ways away from 9800.  Also the smaller output tube in the UFO25 is faster than all of the above.  The combination of the high impedance and faster tube is always going to have a musical advantage when speaker efficiency isn't choking the chicken.

Still shaking my head that a pair of UFO25's was easily chosen over the ZMA...Shindo...Wavac... and we noticed no difference in power.  In fact my observation during the comparisons was that the UFO25's were louder.  Let me explain...

When we switched to the ZMA I tried to set the volume the same which I think I did.  But from my location it sounded about 3dB quieter than the UFO25's.  But then when the music became more energized the volume jumped up and I knew the levels were exactly matched.

This would suggest that the low level detail with the UFO25 amps is 3dB louder than anything we make including the holy grail ZMA so when you listen to it, as my friend stated, you "hear it coming" before it gets here!

Great stuff!

Time to go float around in the listening room with a pair of Anniversary Amps in Mono driving the HR-1's !  

Steve

Steve,

This has been asked a zillion times at different Forums...  But for the UFO25 specifically, does bridging them into monos bring any sonic difference?  Or is it just a gain in volume?

Best,

Alper

I'm confused.  I only see two input input jacks (left and right, presumably).  Is the amp mono or stereo?  Are the four output jacks for left and right or for 4 and 8 ohm?

Hi Steve,
don't forget the Torii and schedule a Zen weekend for this beauty to further improve it  :)

Steve said: "For example the EL84 uses 3300,"

Was this a typing error for EL34?

I think it's a typo and I think he was referring to an EL34 in the Rachel. Though the Anniversary amp could use EL84 (Steve tends not to) I don't think that would be "the number."

I could be wrong.

It was a typo... and I have corrected it. : )

Some commentary on the HR-1 vs DNA both driven with a bridged mono pair of SE84UFO25's.

I spent last night listening to the HR-1's and tonight listening to the DNA2's.

At my normal listening level I don't hear a substantial difference between one amp or two when I'm listening to the DNA2's. The HR-1's are greateful for the extra power in my larger/deader room and it comes across in their sound.

Sonically the HR-1's image better in challenged rooms and in my less challenged room have a more relaxed presentation aka omni magic. The DNA2's have more presence making them a bit more forward. The bass is a bit heavier/warmer. Both speaks were pulled out into the room several feet from the walls.  HR-1's would likely perform better up agaist the front or side walls unless you happen to have the DNA2's near the side walls and not the front wall so that they are toed in around 45 degrees.  This way the bass from the rear horn doesn't reflect back into the horn mouth. Due to the 3dB difference in efficiency the DNA2 are always going to slam harder and although we haven't measured them yet, the really low end on the speakers is likely greater than 3dB more efficient.  It will be a fun project to do some measuring and see what a gated in room response is like.

I'm presently testing them with "low bass" music on TIDAL, basically CLUB / HOUSE mixes that excersise the bass capabilities of your speakers... always fun when you don't have family in the building.  Turned up to just before clipping which can be seen by looking at the VR tubes... let me just say you would be STUNNED at how loud it gets and the control!!!  If I blind-folded Bob Ziegler (as I've done several times) and sent him in the room right now he would just assume he is listening to a ZMA or TORII cranked up about as loud as they will go.  I'm not kidding.  

Now after hearing this, I can see a definite recreational use for a pair of UFO25's on the DNA's!  I guess it's like a car.  If you go the speed limit the differences between high performance and normal performance are very small.  If however you're a little naughty...

Keep in mind that DECWARE started out in the pro-audio business back in the early 90's and I've done a few night-clubs and completely enjoyed making them "hit" like never before, using Imperial horns and good high current amplifiers...  I know what all bass intensive music sounds like at a chest thumbing level that you have to raise your voice to talk over that hits lower than crap and has zero distortion... and standing in the sweet spot tonight I just heard a pair of Zens that sounded just like it. No one would ever believe it was a pair of Zen Triode amplifiers doing this, let alone a pair of 8 inch drivers.

This would be a great demo to do at one of the audio shows just to completely short out the minds of the solid state high power masses, and it would too!

So I guess to answer your question now after hearing this during the midnight hour, I would have to say that a pair of the amps is definitely
more than doubling the fun so in actuality the price per watt drops and you get thee times as many.

I've measured the stock Zens to have as much current as voltage and with an instantanious peak power > 14 watts per channel.  A bridged amp at 6 watts RMS may well be doing instantanious peaks over 30  watts... which somewhat helps to explain what I'm hearing... It's frankly a little mind-bending.  I can wind the preamp up another 1/4 turn higher than with just one amp and that's a rather BIG difference in volume.  

I can safely say tonight's combo is hitting below 30Hz with a lot of energy.  The Car Bass music designed to blow up your stuff sounds on this system just like your standing outside of a car playing "how low can it go".  Nice room shudder, again from a pair of 8 inch drivers I can tell you that it would be hard as hell to get only a pair of 8 inch drivers to do anything in a car that's playing this kind of ridiculous crap, yet it is easily doing it in my large room with  6 watts.  

God, it's a gag! These's things are going so low they'll squeeze your eyeballs out of your head just like it does in the car audio shows which I also have quite a bit of experience in.   Now the speakers are really begining to make their point.  2 watts won't wake the beast, but 6 anniversary watts has not only woke the beast, but the speed is making the experience surreal.  There is more bass in my listening room than I get from the corner horns, and about the same or more than I get from the Imperial Horns!  

Great, now everyone thinks I'm crazy. Someone is going to have to drive over hear and witness this!  I'm serious...



Steve

Tell me I can bring a ZEN25 and DNA2 home with me and I will be happy to drive up and listen! My ears would love it!!

Joe

Sweet, Steve! Look forward to your Zen weekend for the ZMA. Leveraged with its power as you mentioned... .

When it is the right time, as you stated. No hurry, my budget constraints will not allow me to send my ZMA until the new year (most likely). So, take your time and knock it out of the park.

Whatever, bypass caps and/or power caps that ensue...you're the only one that is going under the hood of my #1 ZMA.  

?

I now have the web page completly written waiting on a single picture that I will add in later.  I decided that if I was going to go to the trouble to create a laser-cut tube case for the amp with a tube pin straightener and all of the tubes I may as well just finish the job.  Finishing the job means getting a larger case, and including two additional tubes and one 8 pin socket saver.

The 2 additional tubes are alternates for the OD3 that supplies power to the input tube. They are OC3 and OA3. The OC3 is a VR105 and the OA3 is a VR75 like those used to feed the output tubes. I did this because it is important to have all three.  By having all three you can run the input tube with 3 different plate voltages. Combine this with the bias switch and you have 6 differnt voltage/current combinations for a single input tube.

Actually there is one more tube, an OB3/VR90 that can also be used but I didn't include it because the difference between it and the VR105 was not enough to justify the extra tube and between the two the VR105 sounds better.

Every input you buy that you hope is special probably IS special in certain components. It is safe to say that any special tube you might buy will sound exceptional in some gear and less than impressive on other gear. The reason for this is that each component has different voltages and currents.  

Literally you can now listen to an input tube in a simulated matrix representing 6 different components and pick the best one.  Some would approach the problem by stating only one way is best, some would approach it by simply having you buy 6 different exotic input tubes. The Zen way is to have you buy only 1 tube and hear it 6 differnt ways... or buy 2 differnt tubes and hear 12 different amplifiers... or buy 3 different tubes and hear 18 different amps.  How could you possibly spend your money more effectively than this?  

So that's that... these NOS tubes will also be included in the tube compliment. Also an 8-pin socket saver will be included that can be used to not only preserve your rectifier tube socket when rolling rectifiers, but set the rectifier up in height like you see in the pictures which looks better and keeps infrared heat from building up on the power transformer which still runs cool btw!

All of these tubes will be tested in the actual amplifier and matched for gain, transconductance and harmonics! Something you will never be able to get from any tube supplier at any price.

This is the right tube compliment to experience a SE84UFO25l amplifier, so we hope most will opt for it when purchasing the amplifier. We decided to make the amplifier available with or without this complete tube compliment, the difference in price around $400.00.

The final price of the amplifier came out to be $2895.00 without tubes and 3295.00 with the complete tube compliment and accessories.  

Glass resistors. So far I have found and purchased 100 of these hard to find NOS glass tube resistors in the white glass. Since each amp takes 4 of these, I am going to put these in the first 25 amplifiers that are sold for free. IF I can get more after that I will add them to shopping cart as an option.  

I'll definately be contacting everyone on the list by this weekend at the latest.



Whoo-hoo !!!  it's finally happening!  This is really going to blow some minds!  

In 1990 we used to give a Zen Drool towel away with each amplifier which in fairness was more than appropriate.  

With this amplifier a drool towel would be the least of your worries. We would have to include a seat belt for your listening chair to keep you from hitting your head on the ceiling when you start floating.

What a great day I finally get to share something that is truely wonderful! 25 years in the making!

Steve

Thanks Steve!

Steve,  all sounds awesome!
I'm glad I held off on UFO upgrade of my zen amp. Guess I will put her in a 2nd system.
Can't wait to get my hands on the UFO25.  I have xtra OD3a Mullards and Jan-Sylvania's. Also, 0A3 Philips, RCA's and Sylvania's as well as 7DJ8's and Pcc189's that should keep me going for years & years to come. Also, some good NOSl 6n1p, 6922 variants. I look forward to hearing the UFO25 with your hand picked tubes! I am ready...Bring it on!

Great to see that this ultimate version is making it across the finish line!

Steve, does the tube set also include the new tube pin tool? That would be nice to have in the custom made box  :)

Tonight I heard the best sounding fake cymbal I've ever heard.

Let that sink in for a minute...




Before I was always pleased to hear that a cymbal is fake instead of real...kind of a badge of honor for the hi-fi systems.  Now I am at a level that underpins that by at least 4 times.  Tonight I heard the most detail and clarity of an electronic cymbal I've ever heard and it changed the experience from a disappointing... ahhh that's a fake cymbal, bummer... to  wow, that's a fake cymbal and it's so interestingly bad I find it spellbinding!  This is resolution on an unpresidented scale.

Tonight a friend from across town with a brother from across the country who has been here before, came to visit so see if he should order a SE84UFO25 and I always want demos to be really good if someone is going to drive clear over here... well I knew it was good from the first song because he set his stuff on the couch in the sweet spot and then sat next to it way off center if you get my drift.  As soon as I pressed play he froze until the 4:58 minute track was over and I pressed pause.  It didn't matter that he wasn't in the sweet spot.

Two hours later, he wanted to hear the UFO25's in mono so we could go from 2 watts a channel to 6 watts...  this time I chose a song that was simply magical on the single amp. In fact it lacked nothing, and was probably about 2 dB louder than I wanted to listen to it on a single amp, so if ever there was an example of not needing more power this was it. I paused the track mid-way through and mono'd a pair of UFO25's and without changing the volume or anything else, let it warm up for 5 minutes and un-paused the track. It was a devistating experience for the wallet.

The music got bigger, more relaxed and even more musical. We continued to listen at the same volume we had with a single amp... the volume didn't change. The scale doubled. This should be extremely encouraging to anyone with a single UF025, because for years you will be certain nothing could possibly sound better, and then you get a second one, and the sound remains idential to what you had but the scale doubles. This is a pretty serious and obvious change and makes everything better instead of the typical trade-offs we usually put up with.

Now that he has left, the two amps are still in play and I am facinating myself with electronic bass music, the very stuff I hate next to rap... and the system is so clean and so deep it's like hearing music the same way the eyes see through binaculars... just mind-blowing resolution.  It's like seeing the moon for the first time in a serious reflector telescope.  

If people in today's world, especially our children, realized this type of ecstatic music density was possible they would complely shit their pants.  Please don't let this die.  Make your kids listen and appreiciate.  Raise their reference.

I have placed all my grand children in my listening room with this music quality wrapped around them from such a young age that they will always know music sounds like shit unless you're in Papa's listening room! Then when they reach Papa's age they will have an ahha moment!

As you can tell I'm listening to the mono amps as I bable on here...  and in all honesty on great recordings the sound is hallucinogenic. The Depth of bass and the power and scale is so uncanny... so big.  You would never know we didn't have the Zen Mystery Amp playing, or the Zen TORII because the accellaration of the notes surpassed the actuall voltage and watts of the notes.  I have it cranked right now with 20% more on the dial before clipping and I have to admit a pair of these 25th Anniversary amps at 6 hyper-fast thermo-nuclear watts just makes your whole face rattle like dust just hit your face from the violin bow itself...  It's not like hearing the energy of sound but morel like feeling it.  Hearing it is a secondary part of the experience.

If I can make the TORII and ZMA this good with so much more power it would be scary.  Please be patient because I have always figured out a way to make everything sound the way I want it to, which is based on the best sound I've heard that I am trying to replicate.  My reference for reproduced sound has just been doubled.  Like I said before it will change everything because ignorance is bliss in audio.  Now that I know it can sound like this, when I listen to anything less I will be humiliated and then 1000% wholey motivated to save face by making it as good... it is an ego thing... somthing we all suffer from.

Getting back on track (sorry about that) my friend is going to return next week and we are going to try to repeat the experience on the Zen Open Baffle with the FRX2 drivers.  That should be extremely interesting and you can be sure I won't have any problem bashing my own gear if I'm even less than 100% pleased with it, so stay tuned for an accurate and true account as always of what we hear.

Cranberry (Oleska & Ruca Remix) to finish the evening on a pair of UFO25's mono'd into the DNA2 horns...  where did the speakers go?

-Steve

I am so glad to hear the Zen Open Baffle is about to be tried with the new Anniversary amp.  The Zen Open Baffles have always been for me one of the most interesting speakers. It will be fascinating to learn if they accomplish the same magic as the DNA2.  

Steve, Do you have a pair of NFX you could try with the Anniversary amp?  It's higher efficiency to mate with the 2 Watt stereo model is interesting to me; and I am always intrigued by it's description of having an "open" sound.  Like an open baffle speaker, but with bass!

Brian

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You should call Decware and talk to someone about placing an order on Tuesday since Monday is a holiday in the US. This is the fastest response.

There is also a link at the bottom of each forum page to get on the customer list for special deals.

Steve, very happy to see the order page debut! And what a generous offer to pay for my lodging if I end-up visiting for an audition and it results in a purchase of the new amp!

A couple of questions. In my recent acquaintance with a 19-year-old SE84C, I discovered an unfortunate mismatch with my prized preamplifier. With the speakers I am using (which I have mentioned before are less than ideal), that Zen amp too easily clips. A different preamp in the collection, however, has helped save the day.

But it is not even remotely in the same league as the first one. A forum member explained privately to me afterward that the Zen amps need preamps with high-gain outputs ("2 volts minimum", he claimed).

Will the new amp require similar output to achieve its best?

I had to look it up; my "prized" preamp outputs 1V. And nothing has been spared over the years in upgrades for this thing. I know the glories it is capable of when everything else is copesthetic with it. In short, I would hate to have to replace it.

You have made clear that you have found a special synergy between the new amp and the 25th-anniversary-modded CSP3. Meanwhile I am watching the bottom line for a move to your new amp (which in all likelihood would mean a pair) and everything else that would need to fall into place to help make the best of them.

Do you have an opinion on whether that 1V output of this favorite preamp of mine is likely to impede my chances of that?  

 

Rob, I'm pretty sure Steve would say two things, and let's see if he does:

1: The new amps are going to need 2V or more to come alive. You'll have the same problem with your preferred preamp.

2:  The Decware ZSTAGE would probably solve that problem as likely would the ZROCK2. The additional gain these add would complement your preamp and energize the amp.

Okay. My experience remains these amps will sound better with 2V or more. My Monoblocks do. It's imo not a matter of coming to full power but of useable power. And the ZSTAGE or ZROCK2 after your preamp or in its place will get that voltage in there. . . that's the "density" part of "speed and density."

Just how I hear it.

Quote:


The CSP3 puts out up to 30 volts.  I'm sure the ZTPRE is similar or the same.  I second Lon's comments about higher voltage.  I don't understand the physics of why higher voltage, than what the amp needs for max power, sounds denser but I doubt your pre will be optimal with Decware amps.  That said, get a ZROCK2 and I'll bet you'll be fine.  To my ears, it adds even more than the CSP3 in the way of sound satisfaction.

Quote:


Hi RLB,
I do not think your preamp is a problem. With inefficient speakers, you need power. If you are not willing to change speakers, I would suggest a different amp or spend double for mono blocks.

I would suggest opening a new thread to tell us about your system, room size, etc. I, for one, enjoy hearing about and seeing other systems.

Wow! At least 20 SE84UFO25 already on the build list!

My UFO25 is #022.
Sarah felt build time should be less than 8 weeks.
I cannot wait!!!