Warning…long post.

The title of this thread is a spoof on the speaker brand Pure Audio Project.  I heard their OB speakers at Axpona last year and liked them.  

http://www.pureaudioproject.com/trio15-open-baffle-speakers-pureaudioproject/

Then I heard ProggRob’s Hawthorne Trios with his UFO Zen and felt the quality bass they produced was something I wanted.  Then I heard Randy’s OBs at the fest with a Augie helper  http://www.caintuckaudio.com/ http://www.hawthorneaudio.com/catalogs/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=3&... and liked how musical it was.  Finally, ProggRob came over for a CDApS session and gave his honest opinion that bass was not a strength of my system.  He was right and that pushed me over the point of no return.

So, I had a little mad money at the end of the year and bought a single Augie from Hawthorne Audio along with a Dayton Audio 250W plate amp.  I figured if I liked it well enough I would get a nice baffle from Randy and be all set.  Little did I know…

Well, I got the Augie, stuck it in a 23.5W X 22H MDF baffle made from leftover wood , hooked it up and it was another wow moment for me - like when I heard my Rachael on a PS Audio power conditioner or when I got the Uptone Audio Regen.  But while it was great, I immediately wanted more.



So, I blew up my budget and ordered another Augie.  Stuck it in another MDF baffle made from leftover wood and set it up running off the plate amp in dual mono.  More goodness as the rabbit hole began to open wider and wider.

Then I thought why not get a couple Besty drivers.  Randy’s OBs at the Fest sounded good.  Those don’t cost much, right?  But then I did some research, exchanged notes with Randy and Maddog07 and started weighing out my options.  Betsy?  Audio Nirvana?  Or the Tang Band W8 1808 which was used in the Pure Audio Project?

I finally decided to take a chance on the Tang Band.  I had used a smaller Tang Band in the past in a simple OB I built pre-Decware days.  I figured that the Pure Audio speakers had received good reviews and they were at the core of that sound.   Steve also had a favorable opinion of them when he was looking for an OB driver.  Finally, I had a 20% off coupon from Parts Express so Tang Band it was.

I got the Tang Bands and cut some 23.5W X 13.5H baffles out of old wood and literally tacked them to the Augie MDF baffles with some leftover furring strip and some drywall screws.

The Tang Bands literally sounded like I was listening to music through a telephone hand set.  But, I was emotionally prepared for break in time, so I let them play for 24 hours.   Hmmmm…better.  Another 24 hours.  Better still.  Another day or so and I think we were there.

I played with the crossover frequency on the plate amp.  Originally, about 50hz.  Then full on (180hz), then backed it off to about 70hz.  That seemed about right.  Then I started playing with volume.  I started out with it about ¾.  But after much fiddling, I ended up about only ¼.  

Where these Augies help the most is in helping you feel the low end.  They provide a nice tight foundation.  If you have the crossover set too high, you can definitely hear the nice tight bass, but it starts to mess up and cloud the mid-range.  Same thing with volume.  It’s cool to rattle your walls, but it can overwhelm everything.

Something was still amiss.  Imaging seems off, so I decided to try an old honker Class D stereo amp that I had from pre-Decware days.  I pulled it out of the closet, and hooked it up to the line out from the plate amp, and rewired everything in stereo.

Wow.  Even tighter and more musical bass.   The plate amp wasn’t even close.  No crossover on the class D though, so I exchanged more notes with Randy and did some reading about how guys are powering the bottom end with Crown class D professional amps.  They have input sensitivity adjustment and a digital crossover (low pass/high pass).

In the meantime, I received a gift card from one of my employees for home depot, so I go there and get material to make a prototype of what I had in mind for the final OB.  A  Pure Audio Project style baffle, only without two bass drivers per side, just an Augie per side.



The key to the Pure Audio design is the metal that bolts into three pieces of wood and forms the triangle behind the baffles to give it a three point stance for stability.  I found some 48” aluminum slats at home depot for about $12each. [url= http://www.homedepot.com/p/Everbilt-1-1-2-in-x-48-in-Aluminum-Flat-Bar-with-1-8-...[/url]  

Using some foam board I modeled out the bends and length of each slat.  If I bent them just right, I could get three 16” aluminum bars out of each slat.   I cut them using a hack saw and then bent them using a vice.  

I also picked up some clear pine for the two six foot 1X2s for each side and one six foot 1X3 for the back pillar.  In hindsight, I should have grabbed cherry or oak, but I can always change that out later if I want to.

I cut the wood into 36” lengths, drilled the holes and bolted it together along with a baffle I cut out of cheap plywood for the Augie and used the same baffle I had cut for the Tang Band.  It all worked and was surprisingly stable. It all looked like it was going to work, so I bought some good Baltic Birch ply and made good baffles.







Unfortunately, I picked the coldest weekend of the year to apply the stain and finish to the wood, and royally screwed the baffles up rushing through the job.  When it warmed up, I took the sander to the baffle fronts and refinished them so at least they look pretty good.  



I then made the second frame and bolted everything together and it looked pretty decent.  I also had some adjustable feet that I put on so I could vary the angle.   They stand ~37” high and 23.5” wide.  The middle of the Tang Band is right about ear level for my listening chair.

I sanded down the aluminum bars and applied a rubber paint to make them black and maybe help with vibrations.  I also got some nice black socket head screws, washers and nyloc nuts off ebay and put those on in place of the cheap galvanized nuts and bolts from the prototype and it looks a little more professional.  I still need a few more bolts to completely secure the drivers, but otherwise, they are done.







So back to the Crown amp.  I found one cheap on eBay.  Since the
Crown only has line level inputs, I also bought a cheap high level to line level converter (used in car audio) so I could run the Crown straight off the Torii binding posts.  The el cheapo converter works, but I am going to build a “magic cable” designed by Dennis of Hornshoppe Horns fame that basically involves wiring in a 600 ohm resistor into your speaker wires to step down the juice from your amp to something the Crown can use.



So now I am tuning everything.  The Tang Band does have the typical single driver rising frequency response.  But I have found that playing with toe-in can impact this.  The more off axis you are, the less high end you get.  I am also playing with the treble shunt on the Torii III to help with this and mid-range shout.  The crown crossover point is now right about 100hz and I am running the input sensitivity up around ½ to ¾.  Some of this is due to the Crown requiring more input juice which I suspect the el cheapo line converter does not deliver.  I should be able to back it off again with the Magic Cable once I get it put together.

These speakers do some things amazingly well.  Soundstage, ambience, detail, tight, tight musical bass, real sound quality.   Imaging at first was not bad but not great, so I continue to play with positioning and toe in and it is getting much better.  They play a variety of music very well.   Jazz, light rock, classical, progressive, ambient, classic rock all sound good.   Uber complex stuff does give them a little trouble, but I don’t listen to listen to a lot of stuff like that.

I probably have them in too small a room.  Even though they are duos and not the trios as offered by Hawthorne and Pure Audio, they are a little physically imposing.   I ended up backing my listening chair up and I may move some of my room treatments to fine tune the sound.
I did some REW measurements and they are flatter than expected.  Also, I compared the FR of the OBs to the DIY monoliths and you can most clearly see the pickup between 25 and 100hz, which is kind of what I was after in the first place.  

It was a bit of a winding road getting here, but for now I am an OB guy.  It is a bit addictive.

Thanks to Randy, ProgRob, Darrel Hawthorne and maddog07 for your help.

Palomino, this appeared at exactly the right time for me. I have been researching OB's all of this weekend. Learning about QT's and excursion lengths and stuff like that.
Your report helps me a lot.
The fab part is the simple stuff for me. I have a whole crew of CAD designers and tool makers that work for me. The aluminum stuff will be cut out on our water jet. I might even have them jet out the baffle holes.
The Rest of the stuff needs to be thought out, but seeing that someone else has figured it out gives me insperation.
You have fired me up, thank you.

Nice project!

My 2cents

A narrower baffle for the TB will help imaging.

Preferences vary, but I like less treatment on the wall behind the speakers and the speakers out 5' or more.
At 5.5' (or more) our ears can easily distinguish between direct and reflected sounds.

I have to rethink treatments.  It's a completely different ballgame now.  These speakers seem to want nothing behind them.  I will continue to experiment.  

4' from the front wall is about all I can do.  I am getting great depth right now.  Imaging is really dependent on toe in.  

These speakers seem to be easy to crank up too loud

Donnie,

16" should work well with an 8" driver; width is a trade off between imaging and how low the the wideband driver will play. I would offset the TB so that the distances from the driver to the top and both sides of the baffle are all different.
You can always make the bottom an H baffle for the Augies. Adding an 8" side panel + 16" = 24" total.


Palomino,

Shorter distances can work fine.
The 11' (5.5' x 2) target allows enough delay that ours brains don't work as hard to determine if a sound is direct or reflected.
I personally prefer an untreated wall as I feel it adds to the "live" sound. I've heard treated wall setups that made OB speakers sound more like monopole speakers.

I always ran my Visaton B200s with no (or a very slight) toe in.

BTW thanks for mentioning the Magic Cable.
I have been trying to figure out what to buy to connect my tube integrated to a line level only sub and completely forgot that I have a NOS Magic Cable.

Sorry I don't know.          Ed made mine.

Here is something I found while searching; reply 3:
http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=97456.0

Russound ADP-1.2
http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=139602.0

I agree Pal... rear reflections are a "good thing" for a dipole OB speaker.  That is precisely what is responsible for their characteristic "big" sound... some like it - some don't.  I think it makes for a more realistic sound myself.  I do not have any treatments behind mine, but I am considering messing around with some "diffusion".  I think absorption behind the speakers would be a bad thing in most cases, unless you have a really nasty response peak or something.

I was studying the magic cables to allow you to step down the speaker outputs of a power amp to drive the line level inputs of another amp.  Looks reasonable, but it would seem to me (and I'm not an electrical engineer) that 1/2 watt power rating on the resistor would be too small.  For example, if you were taking another speaker level feed off a Torii to drive the inputs of the Crown, and the Torii is rated for 24-25 watts - wouldn't the resistor need to be able to handle that much power?  Perhaps due to input impedance of the Crown (or any amp) only very little "power" is actually transmitted - I don't know.  

Can anybody explain this?

Pal, mighty impressive work!  I really want to stop by soon, I'm simply  not content just reading about it.  When I hear it, then I will post!

Maddog - you don't believe that bass trapping in the corners behind the speakers is a good idea?  Are you saying no absorption of any kind?

I'm saying don't install absorption "just because" - only install absorption if you need it.  I think in "most" cases diffusion is beneficial, but I think absorption is really, really room dependent.  Just my .02 ¢

Quote:


I did some investigation on this... google "speaker level to line level" and pay particular attention to the url:

http://www.epanorama.net/circuits/speaker_to_line.html

what we are talking about here is a voltage divider it looks like, and for amplifiers of average gain, a 10k ohm resistor in series on the + conductor and a 1k resistor in parallel across + and - gives us a 1,000 ohm output impedance and a 20db reduction (10:1) attenuation.  If we substitute a volume pot for the 1K resistor... we have a "variable" attenuator.... which could be quite useful.

I think its neat that we are sharing OB experiments.  I have been in touch with Randy for his insights.

Hopefully, others will weigh in or join the "brotherhood of the open baffle" (boob).

Every time I go to the hardwood lumber yard I see those big slabs with the bark still on and fantasize about doing a project with one.  Could make for some cool OBs.

Palomino,
   Can you attached the REW MDAT file? I would like to see whats going on. Do you do a REW when you make the Changes in position or equipment? I find it very interesting to see what the changes are doing to my FR, decay,....
JPV

I got the resistors and made up a couple of magic cables.  Big difference vs the el cheapo auto line converter.  Better volume, weight and slam.  But also a significant amount of buzz.  I had to go back to the el cheapo.

I resoldered everything and tried a couple configurations to no a avail. Something I am missing.

Worth a try. Let me see if I can measure anything between the two amps.

Yes everything is plugged into the powerplant.   No buzz on the car stereo line converter.   Only with the magic cable.

Just a note: I had a Rachel with a treble cut circuit installed, it can be added.

Yeah that's what had me concerned going in but the crown plus the augie is the best bass i have heard regardless of slicing and dicing of signal.  I am a horn guy who is not real crazy about crossovers to begin with.

I am open to trying the 15a's in a future build.  They are so inexpensive for what you get.  It's the driver the augies are based on I am pretty sure.  I see pure audio has their version of the augie now too.  I'm afraid I am hooked on bi amping though.

When the Treble Cut Circuit was new Steve told me that the circuit could be added to any amp. Then the ZMA came out and he told me it could not be added to the ZMA. I think it may depend on the year of the Zen amp. . . and Steve is really the only one who can definitively answer.

I gave the FRX2 a look.  Intriguing but a lot more expensive.

I am at a good spot with these speakers and intend to run them with the W8s via the Torii III.

It's only if I want to also run them via Rachael or some day a Zen that the W8 concerns me due to no treble shunt.  I do want some other ears on these to tell me if they feel the same way.

There is a possibility that you could also tame what I am hearing with tubes or other tweaks.  For example, ProgRob has a coax that provides a very even presentation.

Pal,
Do you have a link to the schematic (or representative drawing) of the magic cable?
With my background I might be able to help troubleshoot.

Last night I just accepted the buzz and listened to music.  Yes, it was there when I hit a quiet passage or between songs and yes it was annoying, but I have one word to describe the bass from this Crown/Augie setup:  sublime.  In fact its so addicting that I am going to live with the buzz rather than go back to the el cheapo line converter.

I have about 30 tracks in my collection that I like for testing bass and last night I listened to them all and was glued to my listening chair.  This morning I listened to Daft Punk Random Access Memories in 24/96.  I have to be in the right mood for this album, but it has great bass and again, it captivated me.

So, I am scanning the web for buzz solutions.  There is a fair amount out there on the Crown amp but no definitive solution yet.

So other facts that may help someone help with with this issue:

1.  I get the buzzing when the Crown amp is off.  It is amplified and changes tone once I turn it on.

2.  I have plugged the Crown into an entirely different circuit in my room and it is about 5X worse than when it is plugged into the Power Plant Premiere.

If I get a chance tonight, I will try a shielded cable and also see if I get the same buzz going through my plate amp to the Crown.

Looking at the connections I would suspect the ground of the Crown RCA jack is feeding back and creating a ground loop via the speaker connection. You could measure the RCA jack ground on the Crown to the chassis to see if it is a direct connection to your power amp.
I'm not that familiar with the Crown internals but if it is a direct chassis connection you could try adding a series 50 ohm resistor in the shield path back to the speaker negative instead of a straight wire (as part of your magic cable).
One thing for sure, be careful when isolating grounds between chassis that could be floating and then touching both at the same time.
You do not want to be the thing that completes the circuit!  :)

Dang. I have no way of adding a drawing here at work....
To measure, disconnect everything from the Crown, power cables, etc.
Then set the meter to Ohms and measure between the RCA input that the magic cable was plugged into, outer (shield) and the Crown chassis.
If it's not isolated you will get a pretty small #, like less than 5 ohms.
The 50 ohm, if you decide to try it, would be in series with the "other" wire going back to the speaker negative from the Crown RCA.

Thanks all.  I have a few homework assignments.

If what you say is true, then Core32's suggestion of the 50 ohm resistor could help??

I can give the 50 ohm a try.

Also attaching the test lead between the two amp chassis might help.  Attaching to the Crown is easy.  Not sure where to attach to the Torii??

Quote:




Center rear of amp is the power receptical. Center receptical prong is the Earth Ground. Ohm meter should test 0 resistance between power receptical Earth Ground prong and: RCA outer jackets, Top plate, Top plate screws & probably toggle switches. So a lead between the two amp chassis can be attached anywhere on the chassis that is common with the power receptical Earth Ground prong on each amp.

Check for continuity from power receptical Earth Ground prong to negative speaker post. If there is no continuity then speaker negative is floating separately from the AC power receptical Earth Ground.

Best to have speaker wires and interconnects removed when testing for the above.

If it works you could also just use a single RCA cable and connect an unused RCA INPUT on the Crown to an unused RCA INPUT on the Torii if they are available.
No harm in connecting two INPUTS together between amps.
This would have the same effect (but neater) as the wire between amp grounds.

If there is an RCA output on the Crown it could still be connected to the RCA INPUT on the Torii, as long as it's some standard signal out.
Just a thought.
Obviously no OUTPUT-to-OUTPUT connections are recommended....  

So the Crown inputs are grounded (=0) and the Torii speaker outputs are floating.
Definitely a ground loop situation feeding back to the speaker.
Can you lift the ground connections ONLY of the magic cables going back to the speaker (-) ?
So the series resistor part of the magic cable is the only connection between Crown and speaker?
Start with the volume low, just in case removing the ground reference causes the buzz to be louder in stead of quieter.

You leave the signal path intact. Just remove the ground wire from the magic cable.
The magic cable consists of two wires. One that has the series resistor in it (signal) and the other just goes from the outer connection to the speaker (-).
You remove the outer connection only.

Leaving the ground wire off is like adding a really REALLY large value resistor......    ;)

Pal,

Have you tried searching on amazon for "Female Spade", they have quite a few options. Available widths include: 6.3 mm = 0.25", 4.8 mm = 0.20", 2.8 mm = 0.11" I could only find 6.3 mm at Parts Express which seems strange?

The tabs on my Alpha 15A are 4.8 mm. I use the non-insulated Female Spade with shrink wrap and they look nice.

http://www.amazon.com/100Pcs-Pluggable-Terminals-Female-Connector/dp/B016WZM3S8/...

So how did you cure the BUZZ ???

Makes some sense. Mixing Floating Ground of Decware and Earth Ground of Crown and the two together are not happy. Great News.

Solving Grounding issues are often a lot of trial and error.

Glad to hear it Pal.
With the Torii's floating outputs and removing the magic cable ground connection to the Crown, the "return path" is now through the common earth ground of both amps power supplies. (The AC power cable ground.)
That is still not ideal but what it has done is removed the majority of the ground loop and thus the buzz.
I do not think there is a passive way to reduce it further and any "active" way may just color the sound to the Crown.
Maybe make sure the Torii and Crown are powered from the exact same AC circuit.

Did you say you had an AC line isolation transformer or similar that your Torii and Crown are being powered from?
If so if that has a ground lug I would do it there.
Proper grounding is such a pain in the ass for critical audio listening.
Adding a ground is just as likely to exacerbate the problem as fix it....

The DACs external power supply, what type connection does it have to the power plant?
If it is just two prong or just a wall wart/brick that could again be a source of ground loop.

Rob stopped over yesterday afternoon for a mini CDApS.  We only had an hour.  We demo’d the OBs on the Torii using some of my music and some that he brought.  Then we played with the crossover point and finally, we put the Zen UFO in to see how it did.

I hope Rob will get some time to weigh in with his thoughts.  He was impressed with the speed and transparency of the Tang Bands.  He also commented that the highs were good.   He thought the bottom end was good, but felt that the Crown did not better his dual Rythmik plate amps he runs the 4 Augies in his Trios with.

We threw some pretty heavy stuff (at least heavy for me) at the OBs and all but a couple of songs, I think the Tang Bands held up and produced enjoyable music.  One song we couldn’t finish was an Alabama Shakes song.  I may give that one another try under a different gain mix as it’s a pretty hot recording.  

I think these speakers are widening my musical horizons.  Not sure I am going to become a metal head, but I dig some of the progressive rock Rob has on his playlist and even some of his metal.  I think one of Rob’s parting comments was that these speakers were very good for the kind of music I listen to.  Lots of jazz and lighter rock with some alternative rock tossed in.  He preferred the meat of the larger 15” coax driver in his Trios for more of the music he listens to.

We experimented with the crossover and both felt that the higher crossover of around 105Hz sounded better with the Torii.  I had it set at around 50hz when we started.  I punched it up to 250hz and we both agreed it sounded horrible.  I may still try high passing the Tang Bands at 250hz (like Pure Audio) rather than low passing the Augies at 250hz.

We tossed in the Zen but unfortunately, we did not get the quality of results we got with the Torii.  We did adjust the crossover up to try to give it more weight, but still the results were not as satisfying.  I got similar results with Rachael, but hoped that maybe the UFOs would come to the rescue.  Overall, my conclusion is that the Tang Bands need more juice.

Eric is next up.  We've just had difficulty connecting with our schedules lately.

After Rob left, my son came home from college.  We ate some Chinese food and had a couple glasses of wine.  I always ask him to listen to my system when he comes home and he kind of grudgingly does so.  So the agreement was he would listen to one song.  

He likes that Daft Punk Random Access Memories album so I put on a track.  Head started bobbing, foot tapping.  So we listened to another, then another and after about 30 minutes he said, “can we hook up my Macbook?”  

We listened to all kinds of stuff and had a little bonding time. We played hip hop, progressive, electronic, alternative etc.  A couple hours later, his Macbook ran out of juice so only then, we quit.  My point being that I believe these speakers to be engaging across a wide variety of music.  

BTW, it was interesting what a hit the performance took when we switched to his Macbook.  Rather than download the USB drivers, we just ran optical.   I felt pretty good about the investment in the upgrades to my Mac mini.  And for sure felt better about USB vs optical.

One thing I discovered during my build is that Randy's design is deceptively simple.  The man has experience and that OB design of his is no accident.

I just wanted at least 22" because Darrell Hawthorne said his  production baffles are that wide and Randy also suggested the wider you go the better the bass on an OB.

There are guys on that gravity of the dark Star thread that experimented with crazy widths.  

I think my next build will be thinner just to see what I lose in the bass department.   I can't have something this big in a second system.  Back a few years ago pre decware I did some with the piano hinge.  You could fold them when you were not using them.  It was a short term experiment because I could never integrate the bass properly.

Bet those don't come with "FREE SHIPPING!!!!"   lol
Maybe a small fork-lift!

My new favorite (and recurring) phrase on the forum: "An Error Has Occurred".

It appears that my admittedly rudimentary computer skills are worse than I had feared.

Quote:


Similar experience with my 15" Lo Frequency Open Baffles. I run them full range, big open sound. I tried a couple of Eminence passive crossovers and it just sucked the life out of the low end (a night & day difference).

Thanks for the vote of confidence, Pal.

I already have my next project in mind, if my ship comes in. Or more correctly I should say if I can ever reinflate myself after the squashing that I took when the real estate market tanked. Anyway, if Steve is still making the FRX2 drivers, I'd like to pair those in an open baffle with a Tori Jr straight from a source. No preamp, no ZStage, no ZBit, no nuthin'. I have been finding that I'm happiest with the music when my system is the simplest. (OK, well, I do have my Regen with Curious Cables before and after in my system, so there's that). I'd also like to 3D print the baffle - but not before I do a few mockups in cheapo plywood. Never any shortage of ideas around here (just $$).

Randy

Hey Randy do you hear benefit of the curious cable before and after the regen?

Randy…I really like the idea of 3D printing the baffles.  What printing material are you planning to use and will it be anti-resonant?  

I have also been eyeing the FRX2 drivers due to treble frequency response.  I don't have a treble control on my amp to tame the high frequency increase typically present on most single driver systems.

I wonder how the FRX2 would sound in combination with an AMT driver as a super tweeter?

It really matters what kind of 3D printer you have in regards of what kind of material you can use.
Most small "Maker Bots" are just melting what amounts to ABS plastic.
Some of the high end stuff have many different materials from hard plastic to a pliable plastic that feels like rubber.
This week I watched a printer print metal. It was slow and glitchy, but it is the future.
I've seen sand, ceramic, wax, plastic and metal printed.
I'm going to print up logo's for my new OB speakers this week, just because I can.  

@ Donnie and TubeNube - this makes me wonder what kind of material VPI uses for their 3D printed tone arm.  Supposedly it's very non-resonant.

@ Palomino - speaking of single drivers and Pure Audio Project ... they are starting to use Voxativ drivers in their newest open baffle design.  I'm not sure if you've heard of Voxativ, but they make some of the best full range drivers out there being fanatical about the build quality and PAP are combining them with a unique crossover design (Leonidas Crossover) that seems like it focuses on the bass drivers and gets pretty much out of the way of the fullrange drivers.

These are the drivers and will be 95dB @ 8ohms in Pure Audio Project's open baffle design ... those specs are great for tube lovers.  This is something I would love to hear!

Here is a graphic representation on what the Augies do for the Tang Bands.  I said 100z over on Donnie's thread, but its 200z, then the lines come together.

I stopped by the local hifi shop today to see what they are featuring.  They like Manley tube stuff and I was hoping to give some a listen.

Instead they had some microwave sized class A amp going in that room paired with some $8K speakers.  What impressed me the most was Sony's digital player.  I haven't had time to research it but it is a FPGA based DAC with 1tb disk drive.  You can plug an external disk drive up to it but not much else.  Its meant to be an integrated solution only.  Balanced output.  

http://www.theabsolutesound.com/articles/sony-hap-z1es-hdd-audio-player/

Anyway, the $8K speakers sounded pretty good.  Nice imaging and a nice layered soundstage.  I was not blown away by the bass.  It wasn't that tight and was slightly bloated.  What I came away with was a couple thoughts.  1. There is no replacement for displacement.  The Augies rule.  2. Why don't I have that depth of soundstage?

So I came home and started fiddling around.  

The issue I have with speaker placement is a limited size room.  I didn't want these OBs right on top of me.  With the DIY monoliths, I had a 7'2" triangle going with about 4' behind each speaker.  I tried to maintain that with the OB's but ended up sliding my listening chair back about 10-12".  So I had heard that 5' was a suggested distance for OBs from the front wall.  Given I had about a foot to work with, I slid them out.

Well, I got about 80% of the soundstage that those pricey speakers had.  I don't think the layering was as good, but most of it was there.  For $1K, these things are getting more and more impressive as I tweak.  Plus, the bass in the OBs killed those speakers.

Lesson learned is that OBs really benefit from distance from the wall - more than other speakers perhaps.

I am not sure I would go for all in one player, but if you are, that Sony at $2K seems like a good deal to me.  Nice ipad/iphone interface as well.  I will check it out again at Axpona.

Go big or go home!  

I built my frames so that all I have to do is re-drill three new taller wood support pieces for the frame and I could add another level for more augie goodness.  I would probably have to add another set of aluminum bars as well but no biggie.

I am thinking my next build might be an econo version with a  betsy / 15a combo for my other system.  I'd make the baffles a little thinner/shorter so they aren't as intimidating and may achieve a little higher WAF.

The more I fiddle, the more I like OBs.

OBs may defy conventional wisdom on this (many) point(s).

Fixed it for you.

My OB's are really changing my thought process also. While I'm not  going to delude myself by thinking that they are as good as my MG944's, they are pretty doggone good.
They sound so different, it is so very hard to describe. I noticed last night that the soundstage was much higher than what I am used to. Maybe I've gotten the full range driver too high??
It sure is fun messing with something without having visions of grandeur that I can do something better than the pros. It expands your vision.

I'm reading the thread. Glad you enjoyed the "Jazz Masters" material! I haven't been commenting as I'm completely enthralled by my HR-1s and not tempted by other speakers or speaker types, but enjoy reading your explorations and impressions.

I imagine it's worth it for what you have learned already, and the joys of discovery. I admire your ability to dedicate the time and "mind" to exploring and analyzing. And I'm envious of the "like minds" you have to get together with on occasion and share results and ideas. Keep at all of this!

I found this quote interesting: "These OB are providing me something else which is a bit difficult to describe.  They are giving me accessibility to more of my (modest) music library.  By accessibility, I mean that I enjoy more of my music when listening to them."

This has been the result of my system metamorphosis that I found most satisfying. I stopped looking for the best detail, the best sound staging, the best imaging, etc. and really tried to get my system to be "most enjoyable" to most of the music I want to listen to. The Torii Mk III, the HR-1s, the ZP3 and the PS Audio front ends and power components have really gotten me right where I want to be, and cabling has been the final stage of dialing in. . . . This could go on forever, but I'm more and more inclined to just stop and enjoy the music. I keep buying more and more music because I want to and CAN listen to it all, enjoying the listening is where we start, and hopefully end. . . . In the middle for me there was all this trying and trying and analyzing and thinking and trying. . . at times the music was eclipsed. Now the listening (and because it's an all encompassing audio and video system, also the watching) is really fun and enjoyable and I tinker less and less.

I'm still reading as well, Pal. I took a break from my OB experiments because my VMPS center channel came back from a local speaker maker who was upgrading the crossover, but I have appreciated hearing the results of your experiments, as it has a direct bearing on what I'm doing. For instance, you recommended moving the OBs out to 5 feet from the front wall - I had mine out 4 feet, and the extra foot made a nice difference. The sound got bigger, fatter, and the soundstage widened a little more, although I'm still not knocked out by the width of the soundstage - I'll play with that a little more. I will say one thing that I noticed with OBs (or at least with the Hawthorne Audio Duets that I have) - in my room they seem very sensitive to toe-in. I had them pretty much parallel with the front wall to start, and wasn't getting the imaging that I wanted. I toed them in just an inch/inch and a half, and the center image appeared POOF like magic. Such a small change made such a big difference, I had to go back and do it again. Sure enough, they are that responsive to position change. Pretty amazing sound for not much money in the scheme of things.

Speaking of much money, I took the plunge today and ordered a pair of FRX2 drivers from Steve. Not really in the budget at this point, and I won't really have a lot of time for a while to experiment with baffles, but I seem to have been bitten hard by the OB bug. Had to have them, and that's that. I'll report any/all progress that I make with them when I have time.

Randy

Will do, Pal. When I heard from Steve last Friday, he said that he had a pair ready to go, so no 8 - 12 week wait. So I may get to start my experiment a little sooner than I had thought. Gotta love that.

I've been mostly listening, but I was getting a bit of midrange shout on some songs so I tweaked the eq in Audirvana.  It helped.  

I also switched back to the RCA 5U4Gs as they are more laid back that the 274Bs.  I'll listen to these for a while and then switch back.

There is so much to tweak on the Torii, I am certainly not done.

I'm getting great soundstage now.  I am also loving the bottom end.  I'm not sure I can live without the Augie/Crown combo.  I am looking forward to Axpona in hopes of hearing some 15As for a comparison.

Sent you an email

That's awesome...I think I need to come by soon with The Redhead and give the new setup a good listen.

I'll suggest "Trinity Revisited" again.

I don't have experience with those Reflektor tubes, but I do have experience with single wire silver shield Voskhod 6N23Ps and they are really good. I prefer Amperex and other 7308s in both the amp and preamp, but these are certainly very good and I'm sure I could build a tube complement around them that would make excellent sound.

I know what you mean about those RCA rectifiers. I liked the 274Bs (really 5U4Gs) that Steve ships, especially in the cryo'd version, but prefer the RCAs--the 274Bs are just a bit too bold and etched for my purposes. . . . And I've moved to 5V4G types myself (they work ideally with the Arcturus OA3 regulator tubes I'm using). I will always sacrifice a tiny touch of detail for the right tonal balance and doing so helps my system's musicality/bit of forgiveness to non-stellar recordings. . . . And somehow this century it's been RCA rectifiers that always deliver.

So when can Michelle and I swing by for listen? LOL

First of all, I think it is pretty cool that we have 3 different OB design experiments going.  I am inspired by what Donnie and DBC have going on.

So I got up early this morning to listen before people start asking me for stuff and I came up with a way to describe my OB soundstage of late.  There is no one thing that "makes' this sound.  Its a pure synergy thing if there ever was one.  Thanks for the direction everyone has provided along the way.

Anyway, here is the best way I know how to describe it.

Imagine in front of you are a number of beach balls suspended from the ceiling at different heights and depths.  Each beach ball represents an instrument with sound emanating within its own sphere.  

Now close your eyes and with the beach balls still placed in your mind, imagine the overall space they inhabit being limitless.  The space you are in is, in and of itself, a sphere of sorts and you are suspended within it.  Depending on the song, the beach balls go to different depths from front to back.

This differs from the soundstage I achieved with horns both in terms of the shape of the beach balls (they were more like suspended flat plates) and the limitless size of the sphere you were sitting in.

So hopefully that sounds attractive and perhaps different to people.  What the kicker is though is I came up with this description without the Crown amp on supplying juice to the Augies.  Long story, but the amp is on the floor and I turn it on with my toe and just didn't notice that I didn't depress the on button far enough.

The combination of the Tang Bands putting out enough bass and the kind of music I was listening to lead to me listening to two songs before I realized nothing was coming from the Augies.

Anyway, the impact of the Augies did take away from the overall effect and the beach balls flattened a little.  They lost a bit of that defined, just reach out and tap them spherical shape.  Not terrible, but it seems a trade off of sorts - bass for 3D effect.

I am hoping that somebody that actually knows something about speaker design (as opposed to me) can weigh in here.  Is this the blending that DBC talks about in his thread?  And if so, what is the physical phenomenon that is impacting the 3D effect?  Some kind of phase smearing or something?

FWIW I didn't keep my Augies (10" ?) very long, never could get them to work to my satisfaction with Visaton B200s.
In retrospect they may have worked better after I started using 2 B200s in a 1.5 way.
I definitely feel that a higher x-o point narrows the options on drivers that will work best.

AFAIK there has always been a conflict between low bass and the ultimate image when reproducing music in the home.

Quote:


https://www.decware.com/cgi-bin/yabb22/YaBB.pl?num=1277647494

See reply #4.

"But the sound waves emanating from the augies has to be conflicting in some way with the sound waves from the Tang Bands."

This is mostly what I understand it to be. IME the type of enclosures does not matter.

Have you ever tried the Augies with the Crown and just an inductor?

The Beta 12As are faster and crisper because of the lower qts and mms.

Sounds like a couple things to try.  Thanks.

I am off on another journey right now.  My '75 silver shields were just delivered.  These are supposed to be better than the '74s.  We'll see.

Since I was thwarted on the tube front, I did re-read the comments related to blending and re-experimented with the crossover in the Crown.  I'm a little slow on the uptake sometimes.

I think that crossing over lower aided the beachball effect, but took some of the punch out of the upper mid bass which I like.  So I'll live with slightly less imaging to get mid bass or run just the Tang Band alone on some material.  One of the things I like about this setup is that you can tweak.

Also, I finally hung the fractal diffusers on the rear wall like I meant to 9 months or so ago.  They had been sitting on the back tables and it was only a matter of time before one toppled over.