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Palomino Audio Project (Read 41080 times)
Nixxuz
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Re: Palomino Audio Project
Reply #500 - 11/08/19 at 03:56:54
 
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BillW
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Re: Palomino Audio Project
Reply #501 - 11/08/19 at 06:14:34
 
According to this chart, it’s more similar in density hardness to North American Red Oak than to North American Maple, interesting comparison they chose in the product description considering the options.

http://www.workshoppages.com/WS/Misc/Wood-Hardness-Chart.pdf
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Palomino
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Re: Palomino Audio Project
Reply #502 - 11/11/19 at 14:23:15
 
This weekend I worked on my prototype baffle for the Crystal 10 and AE woofer.  I didn't want to practice of good hardwood.  I am doing three things for the first time - using a spiral bit, using a jasper jig and doing rear mounting.

I had some Baltic birch laying around so I doubled up two sheets and made two 36 X 19 3/4 baffles.  The back panel on each baffle is actually two pieces because I made them out of whatever scraps I had.  That's also the reason its only 19 3/4 wide.

The final will be more in the neighborhood of 27" to 30" wide.  I may end up going taller as well.  Just depends on how this pair sounds.  My ears are at about 34" in my listening chair.

I found out what Steve meant by the spiral bit "getting away from you."  It really can.  The Jasper jig didn't exactly fit my router so I had to drill some new mounting holes. No biggie but this router I have is not may favorite of the three I've owned.  

Anyway, I can recommend the Jasper jig.  Makes it so much easier than making your own.  My previous one I made out of Plexiglas and it worked fine, but it had a million holes in it and I had to get the radius measurement exactly right for a good fit.

Luckily, I didn't screw anything up yet.  I got interrupted when my daughter asked me to make additions to her ferret cage with wire mesh so the little cirtters couldn't get out.  They are escape artists.  I will probably finish them up next weekend.
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Frimpy
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Re: Palomino Audio Project
Reply #503 - 11/15/19 at 12:43:08
 
Hi Folks, Thank you all for the information previously posted. My Lii audio F15's arrived a few weeks ago. My 1st attempt was using some scrap 1/2" MDF I have in the garage. Size was 24" X 19" and it was ok sounding, Ya just ok sounding.  
After much searching I found a 36" X 96" countertop at a place in Chattanooga TN. called Southeastern salvage. I purchased this 1" countertop made out of Curupau wood ( also known as Patagonian Rosewood). boy is it heavy. Janka hardness is over 3000.
Not a wood worker nor have wood working tools, But my neighbor did have a few. Using a skillsaw and a jigsaw I am on my way to having a pair of the Big Bestsy's with Lii Audio F15's.  I still have to do the front feet and rear base. Soundwise, I am pleased so far but have only listened an hour or 2 . Using my Taboo MK4 to power them, Will post more as I continue the journey.
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Frimpy
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Re: Palomino Audio Project
Reply #504 - 11/15/19 at 12:44:19
 
Posted another picture , hopefully not sideways.
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Frimpy
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Re: Palomino Audio Project
Reply #505 - 11/15/19 at 12:47:19
 
If you click on jpeg file above picture it will open the pic correctly.
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Palomino
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Re: Palomino Audio Project
Reply #506 - 11/15/19 at 16:21:49
 
Looking good. Let us know what you think.  Give them some time to open up.
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beowulf
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Re: Palomino Audio Project
Reply #507 - 11/15/19 at 22:24:24
 
Wow, beautiful wood choice, but those babies look huge!  If the drivers are 15" how wide is the baffle at is widest point?
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Re: Palomino Audio Project
Reply #508 - 11/15/19 at 22:27:15
 
Answer: really wide! (Specs are on the product page).
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Frimpy
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Re: Palomino Audio Project
Reply #509 - 11/17/19 at 00:27:03
 
They are 32.5" wide and 42" tall no finish on them yet.  When I purchased the wood countertop 36" x 96" I had a tough time deciding whether to do the Large or Medium baffles. As you can see I went Large. Listening tonight using my Rachel, RCA 807's and Lorenz 7dj8's and it sounds pretty impressive. The RCA's aren't as warm sounding as other 807 tubes I have and I am pleased with them with this setup. Will play with my Taboo MKiv  with these speakers tomorrow.
These speakers are impressive so far, really like not using a subwoofer...just feel a cohesiveness with just the single drivers ( no subwoofer). Thx for reading Brian
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Geno
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Re: Palomino Audio Project
Reply #510 - 11/17/19 at 01:29:10
 
Nice job on the baffles. They look great!
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Palomino
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Re: Palomino Audio Project
Reply #511 - 11/25/19 at 14:20:19
 
I got these baffles to the point of being able to listen to them over the weekend.  These are my practice baffles made from some baltic I had left over from another build.  36 X 19 3/4 X 1.5".

I practiced the rear mount technique on both the C10 and AELO15 and did the roundover on the driver holes. I didn't screw them up too bad.  Had I attempted this build cold with good wood, I would have been really anxious all weekend.

If I like the sound, I may go ahead and round the corners a la Betsy and make a proper base for them.  Right now, they are just supported by home depot shelf brackets.  The AELO15s are really heavy though so there is a lot of total mass to them.

Overall, these sound much better than my old stepped baffles.  For one, the C10 driver is closer to ear height which helps with soundstage height.  They are also not set back as far and they have the flared opening.  The AELO15s may benefit from more mass of this baffle.  Its not as wide, but its heavier.  I ended up turning the bass down on the crown as a result.

These have much bigger scale and better hit.  Overall, they are more engaging now as well.  More musical and less clinical.  High water mark for scale and hit are still the Big Betsy's.

I will listen to them a while and then decide if its worth going to the next step.  Before I go the hardwood route I may seek outside council from BadWolf.

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Showme
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Re: Palomino Audio Project
Reply #512 - 11/25/19 at 14:52:08
 
Actually pretty nice looking too.
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Geno
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Re: Palomino Audio Project
Reply #513 - 11/25/19 at 14:54:39
 
Awesome, Pal!  Looks like you are onto something. I love the look and look forward to the hardwoods. I’ll bet the sound will be spectacular!
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Palomino
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Re: Palomino Audio Project
Reply #514 - 11/25/19 at 15:25:35
 
Yes, the rear mounting gives a nice clean look.  Because these were scraps, the grain runs across rather than my usual up and down.  I actually like it.  The sides are kinda ratty, but I anticipated cutting the radius so I didn't spend any time sanding.

I like working with the spiral bit.  Nice clean edges.  

When did the recess on the back first.  I learned about getting the same depth over multiple passes because the spiral is only 1/4" and I had to do 3-4 passes of decreasing diameters to make the lip big enough for the driver.   I probably should have used a wider, traditional bit for this.

I also learned to make the back hole 1/16" bigger because inevitably, your driver will catch on any imperfection in the wood if the hole is not big enough, you have to sand to get it to fit.  I had to sand a lot on the first baffle.

I also found the Jasper jig to be a huge help in speeding the project up.  I also learned the hard way to make the pilot hole for the pin perfectly straight on the horizontal/vertical.  Even a little lean to one direction or another makes for more sanding.

Geno, there is a guy on the OB facebook page that has built a similar baffle using the C10 and the Lii Audio 15 bass driver.
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maddog07
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Re: Palomino Audio Project
Reply #515 - 11/26/19 at 00:03:58
 
Looking good Pal.
put another 15" bass driver on top... and you'll have my Trio's....
all my drivers are back mounted and the whole front is covered with grill cloth with wood tops and bases.  From the front, they look kind of like a pair of Vandersteen 3's - only a bit larger.
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Palomino
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Re: Palomino Audio Project
Reply #516 - 11/26/19 at 00:35:16
 
What is your middle FR driver mad dog?   Still AN?  If so, I’d like to hear that vs the Lii audio products.

My bass drivers were $700 a pair so it’s not likely I would double up but many people certainly do.
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maddog07
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Re: Palomino Audio Project
Reply #517 - 11/26/19 at 17:26:01
 
I have multiple full-rangers I've used in the middle position; Audio Nirvana 15" SCF ferrite, Audio Nirvana 12" SCF Alnico, Wild Burro Betsy, Wild Burro Betsy W.O.W paired w/Dayton AMT.  And I picked up a pair of Lii Audio F15's from Randy at the Zenfest last October, that I haven't tried yet - but will shortly.  I'm in the process of rigging up the mounting plates for the F15's.
Based on what I heard at Zenfest from the F15's... I'm speculating that the F15's have an upper frequency range similar to the Alnico 12" Audio Nirvana's.  I'll soon be able to give you a more objective opinion.

I chose the 12" Alnico AN's originally, because "on paper" they had the smoothest response above 2khz of all the AN drivers - at least in the  CommonSenseAudio published specs.  Having now owned 3 different AN full-rangers, I can say that of the ones I've owned, or still own, the 12" Alnico is indeed the smoothest sounding.  

I first had the 12" Alnico AN in a reflex(ported) box of CommonSenseAudio's recommended shape/volume - 5.6 cu.ft., i.e. BIG! In this box, the 12" Alnico has tons of mid-bass weight and is really just pretty darn good overall.  I was happy for a quite awhile with these and Decware amps.  This combo was my first foray into full-rangers and tubes.  Then I got bit by the OB bug... had to go down that road, which is where I have remained in some shape or form for the last several years.
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HDDR1
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Re: Palomino Audio Project
Reply #518 - 11/28/19 at 15:18:33
 
Pal,

Is there a link you can share for the OB facebook page where I can see the feedback on the C10 and Lii 15" woofers?

Also I found when I a mass of wood as a bass that helped the sound with a 24"W baffle I was using.  Glad to see and hear about your progress.

Happy Thanksgiving
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Re: Palomino Audio Project
Reply #519 - 11/29/19 at 14:44:52
 
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beowulf
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Re: Palomino Audio Project
Reply #520 - 11/29/19 at 20:35:51
 
Do the wings on the side of the bass portion of that OB do anything?
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Palomino
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Re: Palomino Audio Project
Reply #521 - 12/02/19 at 14:20:20
 
I ended up sick over the Thanksgiving break so I didn’t get much done, but I did advance the build a little.

I went to the hardwood store to look at some cherry wood.  They had some nice 1.5” pieces which ranged from 7” to 10” wide.  Not the greatest grain though.  They did have some with really nice grain pieces, but they were uber expensive.  Anyway, they had reasonable shop fees to cut and plane it down.  I’d end up with maybe 1 Ľ” or so after it was done.   I didn’t buy any wood this trip because I wanted to have more time to choose my wood and make sure I did the spec right before I put in the order.

I also looked for some poplar to make the base out of.  It was still a bit expensive for my current practice build so I went to home depot to see what they had.  I ended up buying two 8’ untreated pine 4X4s.  I cut them to around 13 Ľ” each (I want about a 3” drop on the radius of my 19 3/4 baltic practice baffles) and glued together 5 of them to give it a bit of heft.

I took off the shelf brackets that were the supports on the practice baffles and mounted the base using lag screws.  I also put the handles on.   Combined with the heavy LO15s these speakers are now heavier than the Big Betsy’s.  I have not yet cut the radius.  I have to have time and be in the right place mentally to do those cuts.

Then I sat back to listen.  I hated it.  The addition of the base and the handles had completely changed the tune of the baffle.  I spent the next hour or so adjusting the bass driver crossover, volume, bias, output setting, etc. until I finally got it dialed in.

I was surprised at what the final settings were.   For one, I ended up lowering the crossover point all the way down to 85Hz.  It seems that the Crystals play lower in the “new” configuration.  Then, in order to get that frequency and below to play loud enough, I had to crank the Crown up to 3/4 volume.  Usually I had them at half or below.  I may end up turning it lower over time (I typically end up doing this) but for now they are pretty cranked.  The LO15s are tricky because they have so little distortion that you can turn them up a lot.

The soundstage is bigger I think and the speaker now sounds closer in scale to the Big Betsy, but the Big Betsy still holds the edge.  Ideally, I would end up with soundstage size plus the hit of Betsy with the enhanced clarity of the Crystals.  I think I am getting closer.

Some thoughts on the final build:  

I think hardwood is a must.  Even if I go with the stair tread route again.  Hardwood just seems more lively.

I may mount the bass driver higher off the floor.  I think one of the secrets to the Big Betsy is that the driver is mounted so high off the floor.  I think this contributes to the hit and physical sensation/involvement with the speaker.

To accommodate this, I may take the final baffle height up to 40” from 36”.

The tune on the new baffle will likely be different yet again.  

I don't think I will build an OB baffle without incorporating a wooden base again.
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Re: Palomino Audio Project
Reply #522 - 12/02/19 at 14:21:26
 
Beo, I think the wings are supposed to enhance bass response by making the baffle wider - so less cancellation.
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Re: Palomino Audio Project
Reply #523 - 12/02/19 at 14:39:00
 
Curious what kind if wood glue you guys recommend?
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Re: Palomino Audio Project
Reply #524 - 12/02/19 at 14:51:06
 
I just use regular old titebond.  I apply it with a roller over large surfaces.
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Re: Palomino Audio Project
Reply #525 - 12/02/19 at 15:00:23
 
Thanks, I thinking of a little project that I really didm't know what to use for the glue up.
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Re: Palomino Audio Project
Reply #526 - 12/02/19 at 16:13:16
 
Same, Titebond I.  I like the type I because it will wash out of your pants!  Mine become a wiping place for my fingers.

I don't worry too much over the glue that squeezes out of the joints (you want a fair amount to ensure that there is enough glue in the joint), I use a paint scraper to clean it off when it's somewhat dry.
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Re: Palomino Audio Project
Reply #527 - 12/02/19 at 16:58:05
 
Or you can wipe it with a wet cloth while its wet.  Just get it either way before it dries to save on sanding.
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Re: Palomino Audio Project
Reply #528 - 12/02/19 at 20:37:14
 
I posted this in the wrong thread somehow but it belongs here.

I would only caution that if the wood has an open grain (e.g., oak, walnut), that wiping when wet or using water can force the glue into the grain which may not sand out and will show later.
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Re: Palomino Audio Project
Reply #529 - 12/02/19 at 20:57:16
 
Thanks, that's good for me to know. I've not glued up any wood before. I've always been able to buy it in a format that didn't need it.
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Re: Palomino Audio Project
Reply #530 - 12/06/19 at 20:50:49
 
Tom, do you have any updated photos of your room with all the diffusers?

Are you still using the PI Audio ones?
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Re: Palomino Audio Project
Reply #531 - 12/06/19 at 21:32:02
 
No real changes to the room other than the new Crystal 10
baffles.
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Re: Palomino Audio Project
Reply #532 - 12/07/19 at 12:12:40
 
Everything was going good with my large betsy baffle project, loved the lively sound. Had concrete blocks with granite slabs on back holding them up because I hadn't built rear supports yet ( to build a rear base like Steve built was my idea) . I built rear bases 4" X 18" x 12" , similiar to what Steve said in his forum. Well mine sucked the life out of the baffles, overdampened I guess. Adding more power and they came alive, but was louder than my normal listening level ( frustrated to say the least). After many iterations of rear supports I have a temporary solution that I am happy with. Had to put granite on top of 2 12" legs coming off rear of baffle. Seems due my lacking wood working skills and tooling the baffle would rock, the granite and a few wedges stopped all of that. Its not pretty behind the baffle but it sounds marvelous again. Unsure what I'll do with the bases I made ( like Steves) but in my case they overdampened the baffle.  Love this forum and the info, maybe someday soon I'll compare my Omega's and DNA's to the Big Lii F15 baffles.
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Re: Palomino Audio Project
Reply #533 - 12/10/19 at 14:19:01
 


Here are my three open baffle speakers.  I think everyone should have a few, you know, to cover the waterfront Wink

They all sound very different but I could probably live with any single one of them if that was my only option.

In terms of scale, the Big Betsy wins hands down.  But the Tang Band/AMT/15A based speaker has a more open soundstage due to the skinny top baffle.

Bass hit also goes to the Big Betsy, but I was surprised how well I liked the 15A.  For the price, a very good bass driver.  I have a crossover with the 15A, but no additional amplification and it is plenty loud and full.  I also have some Augies that I can run in these baffles to give it more ooomf and body, but they require additional amplification.

The Crystal 10, as its name suggests, is definitely the most clear and colorless sound.  More details by far and the best spatial cues.  The LO15 has the best low bass and bass definition by far, but requires additional amplification.  I tried it with just a coil to cross it at around 100hz and while it sounded crisp, there just wasn’t enough body.

After listening to the Crystal 10, the Tang Band/AMT based speakers sounds a bit dark.  I quickly adapted to it and enjoyed the music, but the contrast was pretty striking.

Costs are around $800 for the Big Betsy’s (inexpensive red oak stair treads and L15 driver), $1,200 for the Tang Band/AMT/15A and  $1,900 for the Crystal 10s (although they are in a cheap baffle made from leftover Baltic Birch).

If asked to choose, right now, I would lean towards the Crystal 10.  It opened up in the last several weeks and the spatial cues are really what I have been looking for.  Combined with the sublime bass of the LO15 it’s a really great speaker.  

The Big Betsy is really a great all rounder and its easy to fall in love with the scale and addictive hit of this speaker.  Everything sounds good on this speaker.  It is definitely the speaker which is easiest to listen to for long periods.  

The Tang Band/AMT/15A speaker would be the only one leaving me really looking for something else – which is what lead me to jump on the Lii Audio based speakers.

Anyway, its been a fun project that I was able to fund by parting with some of my old equipment.  My next project is going to be building some ICs but I will continue to work with these drivers in various configurations.
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Re: Palomino Audio Project
Reply #534 - 12/10/19 at 15:18:45
 
Great job on all three, I admire your willingness and know how to experiment and get it done. Thanks for sharing.

JD
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Re: Palomino Audio Project
Reply #535 - 12/10/19 at 15:47:06
 
Excellant. I agree thank you for sharing. I am experimenting with amplifiers with my Big Betsy's . I have a Taboo Mkiv, a Older Rachel and an Ideal Innovations Elite 80 ( 20 watts ). So far the Taboo is more real(live) sounding, but I think the Elite 80 has more control over the driver. Will continue play with things ( baffles and amps). My problem I get it to where I really like the sound then I am off to tinkering and loose it. Oh well.  Merry Christmas to all.
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Re: Palomino Audio Project
Reply #536 - 12/10/19 at 16:20:08
 
That is quite a line up, Pal.  You should be very proud - you did a great job on all.  There is nothing like variety. Sure do wish i could listen with you.

Can you give details on exactly how you have the Crystal combo connected? From each amp connection to each speaker terminal.

Thanks,

Geno
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(2)SE84UFO(Balanced Monoblocs) OR Sansui AU-222
Crown sub amp
Cambridge Audio CXN(ModWright) • ZBIT
SL-1210MK5(KAB Mods) Soundsmith Aida MKll cart • Darlington Labs MP-7
Otari MX5050-Bll2 R2R
ZLC Power Cond.
Lii Audio PT-10/W-15 in open baffles
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Re: Palomino Audio Project
Reply #537 - 12/10/19 at 16:33:41
 
Zen 25th speaker +/- speaker terminals--> Crystal 10 +/- speaker terminals

Zen 25th  L/R Channel + speaker terminals --> magic cables --> Crown amp L/R channel + inputs --> Crown L/R +/- output terminals --> LO15 +/- speaker terminals.

The "magic cables" - one each for the left and right channels  - are simply a single speaker wire with a resistor in line soldered to the positive pin of an RCA connector.  I'd have to dig out the value of the resistor because I don't remember (it might be buried in this thread).  No ground wire in the magic cable.  When I had a ground wire, it resulted in hum in my system.

Let me know if this is not clear.
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Re: Palomino Audio Project
Reply #538 - 12/10/19 at 17:29:14
 
Perfect! Thanks very much for that. I'll dig back and see if I can find the value of the resistor.

Best,

Geno
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(2)SE84UFO(Balanced Monoblocs) OR Sansui AU-222
Crown sub amp
Cambridge Audio CXN(ModWright) • ZBIT
SL-1210MK5(KAB Mods) Soundsmith Aida MKll cart • Darlington Labs MP-7
Otari MX5050-Bll2 R2R
ZLC Power Cond.
Lii Audio PT-10/W-15 in open baffles
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Re: Palomino Audio Project
Reply #539 - 12/10/19 at 18:45:29
 
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Re: Palomino Audio Project
Reply #540 - 12/10/19 at 19:11:39
 
Thanks Man!
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(2)SE84UFO(Balanced Monoblocs) OR Sansui AU-222
Crown sub amp
Cambridge Audio CXN(ModWright) • ZBIT
SL-1210MK5(KAB Mods) Soundsmith Aida MKll cart • Darlington Labs MP-7
Otari MX5050-Bll2 R2R
ZLC Power Cond.
Lii Audio PT-10/W-15 in open baffles
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Re: Palomino Audio Project
Reply #541 - 12/10/19 at 19:12:51
 
A little expensive but I had trouble finding 600 ohm.
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Re: Palomino Audio Project
Reply #542 - 12/10/19 at 22:55:23
 
Pal,

One more thing. I know that iv'e asked this before, but, for clarity, how are your connections done at the woofer as far as the 2 sets of terminals?
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(2)SE84UFO(Balanced Monoblocs) OR Sansui AU-222
Crown sub amp
Cambridge Audio CXN(ModWright) • ZBIT
SL-1210MK5(KAB Mods) Soundsmith Aida MKll cart • Darlington Labs MP-7
Otari MX5050-Bll2 R2R
ZLC Power Cond.
Lii Audio PT-10/W-15 in open baffles
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Re: Palomino Audio Project
Reply #543 - 12/11/19 at 15:12:53
 
positive to positive, negative to negative.  Running in Parallel.  IIRC, that presents 4 ohms to the amp and aligns it better with the Crystal 10 resistance.
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Re: Palomino Audio Project
Reply #544 - 12/13/19 at 03:26:52
 
Thanks for doing all that work, Palomino, and thanks for your willingness to share. I have my Lii Audio 15s, and my solid door panels, but I haven't had time/space to cut them yet, so I'm living vicariously thru your (and others) experimentation. Anyway, I appreciate the effort and the information.

Randy
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Re: Palomino Audio Project
Reply #545 - 12/14/19 at 03:03:10
 
Great information Pal - I love your OBs.  What final crossover point did you land on between your Crystal 10s and LO15's?  And I assume the Crystal 10s are running full range and your LO15's are low passed at a frequency?

Thanks,
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Re: Palomino Audio Project
Reply #546 - 12/15/19 at 13:17:30
 
Crystal 10s are running full range.  LO15s are low passed at 80hz.

In other news, I built a set of VHAudio silver ICs.  Kinda just because I always wanted to do it, but also because I think ICs are the next thing to address in my system.  Some months back I bought some knockoff Eichman bullet plugs to try.  I just used some silver coated copper wire.  It made a very noticeable difference.  

I thought about re-terminating my Decware Silver reference ICs as I have a couple sets but instead thought I’d try the VHAudio recipe.

Jury is still out but I think it added another level of refinement.  Very smooth and more open.  Not a ton more detail but some.  The bass seems to hit harder.  I don’t sense they need any breakin.  

I think there would have been a bigger sense of change had I done both the silver wire and bullets at the same time.  This excercise has shown me how important the plugs can be.

Next will be my XLR cables.  I have some nice furutech rhodium plated coming in that I got cheap on e-bay.  They may be knockoffs but are in the original box.  I’ll use the same formula.
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Re: Palomino Audio Project
Reply #547 - 01/20/20 at 15:32:40
 
Here are the details on a similar build to mine featuring the crystal 10 and the 15” Lii Audio woofer.  Done by a guy who seems to be well respected.  Has a crossover and it has lower efficiency.

He introduced side panels for the woofer which I might experiment with.  He also adds a super tweeter on his but I don’t think that is a part of the core design.

http://www.modelpromo.nl/audio-dandy/reviews/The%20Liiondias%20Open%20Baffle%20S...
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maddog07
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Re: Palomino Audio Project
Reply #548 - 02/13/20 at 21:57:19
 
the side panels might be necessary if using "one" amp to power both drivers, and of course the xover is needed in this config.  The side panels reduce the dipole cancellation in the bass.  If you're using a separate bass amp.. you can just turn up the volume.
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Palomino
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Re: Palomino Audio Project
Reply #549 - 02/13/20 at 21:59:55
 
Got it.

What you describe is what I am doing now.  The bass drivers are run off a crown amp. with a built in crossover.  I have been messing with the crossover point, but it ends up being between 80-100Hz.
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