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Steve/Decware & Company.....Developments? (Read 370924 times)
ScottNC
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Re: Steve/Decware & Company.....Developments?
Reply #800 - 08/29/19 at 12:37:43
 
Steve,
I’ve been eyeing those in some of your pictures you have posted and been hoping they would be coming available soon. Wow, what a year forward for you and the company.
It’s an amazing amount of progress to have made in the last 12 or so months! Congratulations and amazement would be due for a single advancement, you have clearly outdone yourself!  Can’t wait to have these as an addition.
Best,
Scott
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Bottlehead
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Re: Steve/Decware & Company.....Developments?
Reply #801 - 08/30/19 at 02:58:47
 
Hey Scott,

That's a big PLUS 1 from me!

Randy
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Re: Steve/Decware & Company.....Developments?
Reply #802 - 09/01/19 at 05:55:59
 
Got the jig made today for drilling the optional cone locators... and got the laser dialed-in for the various woods. Also the vibration meter showed up today and doesn't have the sensitivity of my scope and piezo diaphragm set up but could still be useful. Sadly you can't just use it, you have to learn how it works first.... damn I hate the part.

Steve

I know, what the hell is a cone locator.... don't worry it will all become clear soon.  On these bases we opt to place the cones upside-down so that the metal tipped ebony cone is spiked into the wood bass of the Decware amp at the exact center of mass on each corner.  It has been measured to be the best location and technique by far to drain vibration from the chassis of the amplifier.  These ebony metal tipped cones feature an o-ring that damps vibration trying to leave from the surface and allows the cone to self-center inside the cone locator drilled into the base on each of it's four corners.

See we know where the energy originates and where it stands and where to collect it from any Decware amplifier with a wood base in a way that is so much more effective than a steel chassis amplifier with cones placed under its bottom plate... there is no comparison to the effectiveness.  

That's just one part of it, the equally important part is it's ability to isolate from the room vibrations that have found their way into your audio rack or table or floor.  These things just crunch vibration into heat from both above and below.  They are not a transducer like solid wood blocks.

I will post some informal cell phone pics soon.

Steve
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will
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Reply #803 - 09/01/19 at 20:33:51
 
Nice, looking forward!
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Re: Steve/Decware & Company.....Developments?
Reply #804 - 09/02/19 at 01:09:47
 
I want to see your drill jig!
Things like that interest me, making thing is my life.
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Re: Steve/Decware & Company.....Developments?
Reply #805 - 09/02/19 at 05:01:50
 
OK, Here is pic one.



This slips over the top of the platform.  If the platform is less than exactly 10 inches wide x 17.5 inches deep than the 8 slots you see can be used to shim it to center.



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Re: Steve/Decware & Company.....Developments?
Reply #806 - 09/02/19 at 05:04:45
 



Pretty self explanatory...  a 1 inch forstner bit is used with a depth stop to make the holes.  This way when it is put on the drill press no clamps, fences, guides or anything is needed, just hold it by hand and get the job done.


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Re: Steve/Decware & Company.....Developments?
Reply #807 - 09/02/19 at 05:09:03
 



The jig also has a locator for the center so it is used to mark the center of the bottom piece so a 4 inch hole can be drilled in it.

On a side note... having been a carpenter in my earlier years, the concept of jigs was alien and now that I am trying to become a wood worker I see that the time spent making the item is nothing compared to the time it takes to make the jigs and acquire the right settings and tools.

Steve

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Re: Steve/Decware & Company.....Developments?
Reply #808 - 09/02/19 at 05:53:25
 

Now that I've showed the jig for drilling the locating holes, I guess it would only be fitting to show the vibration platforms being made...



Here is what one platform looks like before it becomes a vibration eating plinth.

Steve
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Re: Steve/Decware & Company.....Developments?
Reply #809 - 09/02/19 at 05:57:30
 


So you get each slab cut to the approximate same size and then it's ready for the planer...  This is what they looked like after ripping them on the band saw to 1.5 inches.

Steve
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Re: Steve/Decware & Company.....Developments?
Reply #810 - 09/02/19 at 05:58:59
 



I figured out if I do three pieces into a 20+ inch slab I can rip it in half on the band saw and have the two pieces I need for a platform.

Steve

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Re: Steve/Decware & Company.....Developments?
Reply #811 - 09/02/19 at 06:00:42
 


Here are a finished pair of slabs, one with the hole drilled (the bottom piece) and both have been oiled.

Steve


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Reply #812 - 09/02/19 at 06:03:06
 



Here is what they looked like before they were oiled.
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Re: Steve/Decware & Company.....Developments?
Reply #813 - 09/02/19 at 06:04:04
 



When you really love what you do, the results are there.  You will never get a vibration platform from Decware that was mass produced by a bunch of low paid workers in a big factory waiting for the bell to ring so they can run as fast as they can to the car and drive home...  around here, we run as fast as we can to work and thats why the results are what they are.

Steve
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Re: Steve/Decware & Company.....Developments?
Reply #814 - 09/02/19 at 13:16:57
 
Steve,
Very nice work. Like you said, figuring out how to do it is half of the battle.
As a side note, I'm wondering if some live edge slabs would work for your vibration eating plinths? Perhaps even with the epoxy features you showed the other day?
Maybe a little too upscale in pricing but much further up on the wife approval scale also.
I'm full of ideas, or full of something!
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Re: Steve/Decware & Company.....Developments?
Reply #815 - 09/02/19 at 14:55:18
 
Thanks for posting those pictures Steve, your earlier post aroused my curiosity a la Apple before their launch of new products.

If you care, could you explain the principle(s) (seems like there is more than one) on which this setup as a whole works. Particularly interesting would be what part each block contributes to the reduction in vibrations of the audio device placed on it. Both attenuation of those induced from within the device and also externally transmitted vibrations via the audio rack/ floor.

Vibration measurements of sensor(s) placed at the worst location(s) of the amp (or other devices) with and without this combined vibration reducer/isolator of yours would help in judging it efficacy and buy potential compared to other often hyped and hiked devices in the market.



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Re: Steve/Decware & Company.....Developments?
Reply #816 - 09/02/19 at 17:37:34
 
Steve uses a couple of my "button pushing" terms but I don't really know what principle his platforms work off of.  One thing I wonder though is how significant the vibrations generated within the device are relative to those induced from the underlying support or from the air?  Steve mentions those from the rack but my sense is that they are really the main ones to worry about.  Without a serious decoupling of the rack and device, vibration isn't significantly stopped (draining or damping or turning to heat, however it's viewed, is like closing the barn door after the horse is gone).  I don't think any viso-elastic material is going to accomplish much.  Silicone damping gels might be very good but certainly O-rings and the like won't do "enough to put in your hat," as my father would have said.

I still like springs -- like the old TT designers did.
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Re: Steve/Decware & Company.....Developments?
Reply #817 - 09/02/19 at 18:25:32
 
Archie wrote on 09/02/19 at 17:37:34:
I still like springs -- like the old TT designers did.


... or perhaps magnetic levitation as is vouge these days.

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Reply #818 - 09/02/19 at 20:25:53
 
Really nice looking platform pieces Steve.

Are those scalar/orgone pieces for the platforms on top of the diffusers in the back center of the pic in your post? -

Re: Steve's BIG BETSY Project
Reply #674 - 08/30/19 at 9:51pm

Is this what the hole is for in one platform panel is about? I think I recall earlier your thinking orgonite would be activated by RF/EMI and vibration, and clarify the noisy energy as well as transforming vibration to heat?

After your earlier posts on scalar things, I was reminded of this "tech" and have been experimenting with different metals, stones and resins to make passive noise filters, along with other broader orgonite experiments, and seeing how they act in different places, outside, inside, and on and around audio components and cables. It is fun how different rocks, metals, proportions and sizes have different effects on the sound...as well as how they make our spaces feel, and how we feel ourselves. Having made some now, I realized madscientist-audio's audio feet and discuses likely use orgonite-like concepts.

On another note, I was glad Archie asked about the chimes in your room, and you commented on damping them to keep down the chiming sound. I have been meaning to ask about these since they first started showing up in your room pics.

Guessing they are doing something good for the sound? Do they work like vibrators/absorbers of sorts in different frequency ranges? Can you recommend a criteria for choosing chimes if they are doing something you like?
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Re: Steve/Decware & Company.....Developments?
Reply #819 - 09/03/19 at 04:36:46
 

The chimes in the room started with an eBay purchase of 1 inch diameter aluminum chimes from India. These were 9 chimes, tuned to the solfeggio frequencies from antiquity. These specific tunings had nothing to do with music, they were for healing and transformation. From my research despite being used in biblical times all mention of these 7 and later 9 tones have been omitted from the Bible. The highest emphasis you can give to anything is to delete it therefor I became interested in it.

I enjoyed the chimes for about a year and realized two things.... they were not precision tuned and the lower ones like 174Hz did not play 174Hz but rather a harmonic of it like 930Hz or something. Now... if 174 Hz is said to have a specific effect on the human condition, I don't want to waste my time listening to 920/930Hz or whatever it was. I want to hear the fundamental, 174 Hz.

This lead me on a journey to figure out what it would take to make a chime tuned to that frequency that played that frequency instead of some higher harmonic of it. You see, the 1 inch chime did actually play 174Hz, but I remember after measuring it that the 920/930Hz harmonic was 42dB louder!!!!

Through some experimenting I found out that an 1/8 wall 3 inch extruded pipe cut at  60 some inches will hit 174.0 Hz with no harmonics and a sustain time of over 3 minutes. Not to mention the surface area and mass of the chime is like a million times more so it's LOUD. Seems reasonable to me.  If a dim flashlight is good, a bright flashlight is better.  Make no mistake, large chimes like this can change in frequency by as much as 1 Hz with as little a 10 degrees shift in ambient temperature.  I got all of my chimes to within a few 10th of the target frequency, most with adjustable tuning pins that can added or removed if the temperature in the room changes by that amount or more.

I started with the lowest ones, 174Hz and worked my way up. Then I needed something for the other side of the room, so I found the closest chakra frequencies I could to match so I could have chimes on the other side of the room that visually somewhat matched. I got 172Hz on that long pipe, and again worked my way up. Once I got to higher that around 500Hz, the pipe thickness stopped working and the chimes no longer rang. I then found that 1/2 inc wall (8 times thicker) pipe was needed to continue up the scale with similar results.

So these have nothing to do with sound treatment other than being handy little diffusers of high frequencies, they do nothing unless left un-clamped at which point the ring with the music but not being tuned to 440Hz scale they are never actually in tune with the music so the music is ruined by it.

I have figured out that there is no more accurate source of pure tone, or scalar energy than one of these large chimes.  If you spend 20 minutes with them getting them to sink up together when you play them all at the same time is a pretty serious rush.

I have tried to record these and on the DSD recorder once you hit more than 3 chimes at the same time the recording falls apart. You can only do it with reel to reel tape.  So I did.  Then I played the reel to reel tape back on me favorite speaker of the night, and guess what it sounded just like the chimes!  But there was no scalar effect and you could tell it wasn't real...

I have been experiencing these chimes along side two very special singing bowls from Nepal. If I was forced to choose between my stereo or these chimes, despite enjoying the stereo quite a bit more, the chimes are the keys to the universe and must have tools for long term survival.

It's like choosing between Chocolate bars, or fire sticks when on a survival mission and you know if someone makes you choose between your stereo or your chimes, you are on a survival mission.

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Re: Steve/Decware & Company.....Developments?
Reply #820 - 09/03/19 at 06:26:01
 
Quote:
... or perhaps magnetic levitation as is vogue these days.


Very cool!  I'll bet there's a way to DIY these.  I don't understand magnets very well so I have no idea how it's done without some contact on a wall of a magnet well.  It looks like they just use a pin through the glass top to steady everything.  Would a strong magnetic field have any negative effects on the electronics?
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Re: Steve/Decware & Company.....Developments?
Reply #821 - 09/03/19 at 06:34:25
 
Thanks for the very interesting story Steve! I enjoyed the trip...
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Re: Steve/Decware & Company.....Developments?
Reply #822 - 09/03/19 at 21:28:37
 
Archie wrote on 09/03/19 at 06:26:01:
Would a strong magnetic field have any negative effects on the electronics?


Guessing here, but because magnetic flux obeys an inverse square law with distance, the influence on electrics will be negligible if any. Also it would be easily possible to divert the small amount of leakage flux by use of a material that has a high magnetic permeability.
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Re: Steve/Decware & Company.....Developments?
Reply #823 - 09/04/19 at 02:53:30
 

Quote:
Thanks for posting those pictures Steve, your earlier post aroused my curiosity a la Apple before their launch of new products.

If you care, could you explain the principle(s) (seems like there is more than one) on which this setup as a whole works. Particularly interesting would be what part each block contributes to the reduction in vibrations of the audio device placed on it. Both attenuation of those induced from within the device and also externally transmitted vibrations via the audio rack/ floor.

Vibration measurements of sensor(s) placed at the worst location(s) of the amp (or other devices) with and without this combined vibration reducer/isolator of yours would help in judging it efficacy and buy potential compared to other often hyped and hiked devices in the market.


You're welcome. Explaining the principle in a meaningful way that can be digested requires the web page and associated pictures, diagrams, videos, etc., and that is coming, believe me.

I can tell you that by having two 1.5 inch slabs spaced by a brass ring we have a transitional structure where the outside corners are allowed to flex and the inside that couples the two slabs together with mineral heavy resin is immovable. This I did because I want to absorb vibration from the amplifier and at the same time absorb vibration from the audio rack to prevent it from getting to the tubes. The contact points between the platform and the amplifier will be near it's four corners. Same is true for where the platform rests on the table, at it's four corners. That means these corners, both the top set and the bottom set are input devices. They must be able to move. Also the top can not talk to the bottom. This has been accomplished with this design.

Also, unless you have gear in an environment with lots of vibration, or play your music loud enough to load your equipment rack up with standing energy patterns, the bigger of the two issues is the constant 50/60 cycle vibration from the power transformer on the amplifier itself.

Since we don't use circuit boards, they are not there to vibrate. However what IS there to vibrate is the tubes. That means the sockets which are fixed to the steel base that also hold the steel power transformer are all coupled together mechanically. Vibrations from the transformer will enter into the tube causing microphonic noise at those frequencies. This will in turn slightly smear the performance of the tube. Using tube dampers helps, but let's face it, the damper uses the tube itself making the tube a transducer of vibration whereby it is then absorbed into the viceoelastic o-ring or damping device and turned into heat.  It is better to reduce the vibration before it even enters the tube so that is what I have done.


I have not found a single manufacture of vibration platforms that has published any real indisputable data from live video tests. This is what has taken me so long to develop these... about an evening to prototype the first one, and almost 2 years to figure out how to prove it works without hearing it.

Tonight I have completed the first live video of the actual testing being done to demonstrate the amplifiers self-noise from the power transformers mechanical vibration.

I am pleased as hell to find a way to demonstrate it live with minimal equipment, because there is no way I am going to make a hardwood platform, as if there aren't enough in the market already, and then expect you to judge it's effectiveness by listening to it.  Sure many Decware customers will by ours just because we put our name on it, but that's because they trust us. I don't want potential customers to have to buy this on trust or brand loyalty.  I want to make something with a result that can be not only heard but measured.

Steve

P.S.  I'll post the video here when it finishes uploading   Smiley

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Re: Steve/Decware & Company.....Developments?
Reply #824 - 09/04/19 at 03:44:41
 
Here is the video link of test one!



Steve
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Re: Steve/Decware & Company.....Developments?
Reply #825 - 09/04/19 at 05:36:41
 
Thank you for sharing the results Steve. I much appreciate your openness and that is foremost what I like about your company. I agree with you about other manufactures claiming the world without actual proof being presented. It is only when one does measurements such as these one can than act upon it and do things to improve the conditions.  

I now see what you are trying to achieve by this setup a lot of thought has gone into it, I can see.

As you said and it is clear from the results presented by you that the main sources of vibrations within the amp is the 60hz associated with the AC mains as the highest amplitude vibrational frequencies as shown on your graphs are all harmonics of 60 Hz and therefore the source has to be the transformer(s). Notice though from your before/after graphs that the 6th harmonic has increased due to the law of conservation of energy this set up has reduced overall amplitudes but averaged it across a larger bandwidth.

As to damping the vibration at source besides the use of the platforms, I was also wondering if instead of directly attaching the transformers to the steel plate (which may amplify the vibrations due to steel to steel contact) if you could place rubber or even Teflon washers between the feet of the transformers and the steel plate. I did this for the ZMA I heavily modified by placing the input transformers on stand offs made of PVC instead of steel. I did this based on industrial experience I have with damping diesel engine vibrations from being transmitted to the foundation and thence to the surrounding area. Your measurements corroborated to me that it was the right thing to do and therefore I thank you for sharing the info.

Also from industrial experience I can mention that very large power transformers (5 to 6 meters high and more than 1000 MW output) the vibrations within the transformers have destroyed many a multimillion dollar transformer. The transformer core on which the windings are wound develop cracks due to vibration, including falling apart of core laminations. To prevent this from happening the frequency of the generator output is controlled within small tolerances with very strict limits on how much time the frequency can dwell outside of the tolerance bandwidth.  
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Re: Steve/Decware & Company.....Developments?
Reply #826 - 09/04/19 at 07:20:27
 
Quote:
So these have nothing to do with sound treatment other than being handy little diffusers of high frequencies, they do nothing unless left un-clamped at which point the ring with the music but not being tuned to 440Hz scale they are never actually in tune with the music so the music is ruined by it.

I have figured out that there is no more accurate source of pure tone, or scalar energy than one of these large chimes.  If you spend 20 minutes with them getting them to sink up together when you play them all at the same time is a pretty serious rush.

I have tried to record these and on the DSD recorder once you hit more than 3 chimes at the same time the recording falls apart. You can only do it with reel to reel tape.  So I did.  Then I played the reel to reel tape back on me favorite speaker of the night, and guess what it sounded just like the chimes!  But there was no scalar effect and you could tell it wasn't real...

I have been experiencing these chimes along side two very special singing bowls from Nepal. If I was forced to choose between my stereo or these chimes, despite enjoying the stereo quite a bit more, the chimes are the keys to the universe and must have tools for long term survival.


Steve.... a few years ago I had stumbled upon these mini resonators make by this musician Franck Tchang.  I was so fascinated by these resonators that I contacted him.  He was so informative that I almost considered making a purchase until I found the price.😳

Here is an article from 6 moons about the designer and his product.  It’s a bit of a long read, but it’s relates to what you’re talking about with your chimes...so I felt compelled to post and share the info.

Here are two 6 moons articles on the resonators...

http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews/francktchang/resonators_2.html

http://6moons.com/audioreviews/francktchang/resonators_6.html

Here is the product page of his website...

http://www.asi-resonators.com/resonators.html

Here is a recent YouTube video of him hosting a workshop.  Go to 5:23 to where he talks about his resonators.  He’s a bit difficult to listen to due to his accent, but you can follow along.  

https://youtu.be/24pmY2DsbWk

He is definitely a true audiophile...Enjoy guys !! 😀

Dominick
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Re: Steve/Decware & Company.....Developments?
Reply #827 - 09/04/19 at 16:11:55
 
I'm going to repeat here again my experience when I first hooked up my ZMA.  My "rack" is a built-in cabinet that is very stout and is directly over the main floor girder.  When I play music at a respectable volume (common higher listening levels) this "rack" vibrates along with the rest of my house structure.  With my ZMA sitting directly on the top, I got constructive feedback at higher volumes.  This is what first prompted me to seriously consider component isolation.

This experience is why I keep harping on the vibrations induced by the support.  I am convinced that at any reasonable listening level, these vibrations swamp anything the amp can produce.  I'm not disputing the need to deal with the amp vibration but to me, they are secondary.  Houses built on slabs will likely show less of the effect I get in my framed floor structure.

I don't have vibration test apparatus to prove concept but I can easily feel, with my hand, the vibration reduction once a component is on an isolation platform.  I think if Steve plays music over the air while doing the microphone test, the results will be radically different.


BTW, here is a link to a real isolation concept test:  https://www.sonicdesign.se/sdfeet.html
The graphs show the difference between damping footers (isolation) and spikes (coupling).

Edit:  I ought to mention that my comments are more general in nature and are not in any way meant as an evaluation of Steve's platform.
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Re: Steve/Decware & Company.....Developments?
Reply #828 - 09/04/19 at 17:04:26
 
I don't really understand much of the science behind this, but can see that vibration could surely effect the quality of sound. I'm not a numbers guy, but I trust my ears (Tinnitus and all  :o )

My house is built on a slab. As an experiment, I placed a glass of water in a clear glass on my stereo platform in between my TT and my amp. I cranked the music up, and sat close to the glass and watched closely for any movement at all. It remained perfectly still (I got the idea from watching Jurassic Park where a large thud is heard from an approaching T-Rex, and a guy looks down at a glass of water on a table that shakes with each step  ::)

Is this a viable test to evaluate the existence of vibration on my table???

(Be kind, as I can imagine a few of you are rolling your eyes  :-[ )

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Re: Steve/Decware & Company.....Developments?
Reply #829 - 09/04/19 at 17:10:40
 
I haven't had good luck with springs myself. I've found expensive and complicated ways to prevent vibration "smearing" in my system involving nice racks, 4" and one 2" maple platforms, PS Audio PowerBases (not used for their power functions), VooDoo Cable IsoPods, Herbie's Audio Lab Grundgebuster material, and for damping components (and counter-acting the influence of favorite heavy and rigid power cords) Herbie's Audio SuperSonic Stabilizers, myrtle wood in various configurations, and brass weights. I'm incorporating isolation and coupling and damping. The result for me is great sound in both systems.
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Re: Steve/Decware & Company.....Developments?
Reply #830 - 09/04/19 at 17:13:33
 
I'm sitting here thinking about vibration. So we have up and down movement in the Z axis, what about movement in the X and Y axis?
Is that something to also be concerned with?
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Re: Steve/Decware & Company.....Developments?
Reply #831 - 09/04/19 at 17:46:57
 
Not sure I understand all this, but Steve's platform would seem to be designed to drain all vibration, regardless of axis.

A few years ago, I experimented with what is recommended in this article.  I still use the inner tubes but got away from the roller blocks due to stability issues.  Supposed to help on all axis.  I am intrigued by Steve's concept presented here.

http://www.barrydiamentaudio.com/vibration.htm

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Re: Steve/Decware & Company.....Developments?
Reply #832 - 09/05/19 at 00:29:30
 
A spring will work in all three axes but certainly predominantly in the Z.  Think about those play park "rides" that use a single spring for support.

The problem with the glass of water test is that the frequency at which the water might visibly vibrate at may be outside of the range it's being subjected to.  There is also the viscous damping of the surface.  Floating an amp would be a good way to isolate from vibration.  Large telescopes sometimes sit on a bed of oil (via their yaw axis bearing).

Isolation is hard.  I'm intrigued by the magnetic suspension that BAndrade linked to earlier.  If a magnetic piston, with no radial contact, could be made it would offer, for all intents and purposes,  total isolation.
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Re: Steve/Decware & Company.....Developments?
Reply #833 - 09/05/19 at 01:03:05
 

I too looked into the magnetic levitation concept. Even purchased some units to play with.  I found that if a magnetic field can support the weight of a tube amplifier it's probably going to be strong enough to transmit vibrations as well.  Plus getting one to handle that kind of weight is getting into NASA territory...too expensive.

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Re: Steve/Decware & Company.....Developments?
Reply #834 - 09/05/19 at 01:07:39
 
Archie wrote on 09/05/19 at 00:29:30:
….. on a bed of oil...


That got me thinking, how about a purpose built mini water bed? Would be way cheap to build/acquire and possibly very effective (saying this based only on first intuition so could be drastically wrong here).

I stand with Steve on damping internal as well as externally induced vibrations. I would guess (not wanting to invest in vibration measuring instruments) that for tube amps and especially pre-amps, internal vibrations would trump externally induced ones due to micro phonics presented by the tube's glass structure, the close proximity of the tubes to the transformers and the direct mechanical coupling between the two. Having said that I think for relentless audiophiles it should not be a question of internal versus external vibration sources or whether one is more pre-dominant that the other - both exist and should be zapped for the best possible outcome.

Note as Steve's measurements show, internal transformer induced vibrations are more controllable are they are of fixed known frequencies (60 Hz and its harmonics) where as external ones have too many variables to ideally nullify for all situations (room dimensions, shape, loudness if music being played in different situations, speaker type and positioning etc, etc.). For externally induced vibrations what worked in Steve's room environment may not work in one's home.
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Re: Steve/Decware & Company.....Developments?
Reply #835 - 09/05/19 at 01:19:09
 
Quote:
... internal vibrations would trump externally induced ones due to micro phonics presented by the tube's glass structure, the close proximity of the tubes to the transformers and the direct mechanical coupling between the two. ...


For all of the same reasons I think externally induced would trump since the same coupling is there but the external are much bigger.  Also coming at a broader spectrum.

Certainly BOTH need to be addressed.  There isn't much an end user can do about the design/fabrication though.  Well, us typical end users.  I need to remember who I'm replying to.   Grin
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Re: Steve/Decware & Company.....Developments?
Reply #836 - 09/05/19 at 01:27:37
 
Quote:
I found that if a magnetic field can support the weight of a tube amplifier it's probably going to be strong enough to transmit vibrations as well.


I've never tried magnets.  I searched around and see magnetic pucks that go as high as 5.5kg each.  But I don't like the individual puck approach since they need to be repositioned every time the amp is moved.

But to the point I want to address, vibration transmission.  The component would certainly float and have the ability to "bob" at the natural frequency of the system, but like any spring that I've used, the frequency would measure in single digit Herz.  Far below audible.  (I don't use super stiff springs.)  The advantage magnets would have over springs is that unlike a spring, they wouldn't transmit higher frequencies through the wire.

The real problem with the magnet approaches that I've seen is that they don't control the X-Y axes so the vibration can take that route through the footer.
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Re: Steve/Decware & Company.....Developments?
Reply #837 - 09/05/19 at 01:30:19
 
Ok, I'll throw another idea out there. Immersing the amp into some sort of non conductive viscous material that is supported by some sort of spring device. I'm thinking something like a trampoline ish device where the elastic material comes from the top and sides.
Crazy huh?
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Re: Steve/Decware & Company.....Developments?
Reply #838 - 09/05/19 at 02:06:40
 
I think my ears need serious upgrades before I spend to much effort in the area being discussed. I think i’ll send them to Steve for the 25th Anniv treatment.
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Re: Steve/Decware & Company.....Developments?
Reply #839 - 09/05/19 at 02:10:39
 
The article states:

Quote:
What I've found is that all of our components are being substantially inhibited from delivering their best because they are subject to external vibrations. By far, the most sonically and visually degrading are those vibrations in the ground that enter the component via its feet.These seismic vibrations (the ones very low in frequency and amplitude, so tiny we don't even normally feel them) are creating spurious signals within the sensitive circuitry of your components. These spurious signals mix with the real music and video signals to distort them, hardening the treble, thinning the bass, muddying the soundstage and annihilating dynamics. Seismic vibrations add grain to video pictures, ruin color purity and contrast and soften focus.


I have not found what I highlighted in green to be the case... at least with tube gear. In fact the vibration of the transformer is much higher unless you live by busy train tracks or something similarly extreme. I also found that the low frequencies have proportionately less effect on the sound as the frequency drops below 40Hz.

I can confirm that the vibrations from the ground are so tiny they are difficult to even detect let alone measure in the average home. For example, I repeated the measurements from last night but with the component turned off. Just trying to see what airborne and seismic vibration is there without the transformer turned on. I found that the average high number between the three peaks was 50dB. If 50dB is all we can measure from the air and vibration from the ground during the day, and 67dB is what we can measure from the transformer through the chassis, clearly it is the transformer that is the bigger issue.

Airborne noise I would say would be far more damaging because it would typically be both low and high frequencies as opposed to predominately low frequencies from the ground and of course airborne energy collects in the structures that surround it.

Another issue with airborne noise(sound) is a high gain circuit, like a phono stage, where the first stage of gain is going to be a hundred times more sensitive to noise and vibration than the last tube in the stage. This first stage tube then becomes critical in some circuits and if the tube is microphonic it's a big problem. The sound is coming in mostly through the amplifier chassis as sound in the air hits it, the rack it's on, and etc, sound coming through the glass of the tube itself is probably unmeasurable in comparison. Nevertheless, if you put enough gain on a tube that is microphonic it can pick up everything you say clear across the room, just like a microphone.

Microphonic's is almost never an issue with low gain devices such as line-stages and amplifiers. High gain devices like microphone preamps, and MC phono stages are where it becomes a factor. Still, low frequencies below 40Hz are hard to hear in a microphonic tube, whereas voices can be easily heard.  

When microphonics are bad, AND the volume of the speakers is raised to a certain point you will even have feedback that squeals at that frequency rendering your stereo useless at that point.

On a different angle, sound in the air induced vibrations in the 40-320Hz band can find nooks, or alcoves, or closest, or boxes, or cabinets, or racks with 5 sides that have their own resonate frequency.  You can be sure that if you have one in your room, the resonance inside that space will likely be 12dB higher than the sound that excited it.  That's 400% louder.  Set an amplifier in that cavity and any issues with sound vibration are now multiple by 4.

So it's looking to me like vibration from the power supply is number one, vibration from the air when music is loud is usually number two, and seismic vibration from the ground is number 3.

Steve









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Re: Steve/Decware & Company.....Developments?
Reply #840 - 09/05/19 at 02:16:23
 
Quote:
Ok, I'll throw another idea out there. Immersing the amp into some sort of non conductive viscous material that is supported by some sort of spring device. I'm thinking something like a trampoline ish device where the elastic material comes from the top and sides.
Crazy huh?


Not really, how about we immerse the amplifier in a a non-conductive viscous material and then inject anti-sound into the material as it is measured entering the material.  We'll call it pure zero.
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Re: Steve/Decware & Company.....Developments?
Reply #841 - 09/05/19 at 02:34:35
 
Steve Deckert wrote on 09/05/19 at 02:10:39:
So it's looking to me like vibration from the power supply is number one, vibration from the air when music is loud is usually number two, and seismic vibration from the ground is number 3.



Exactly my conclusions as well from your measurements presented in your earlier post.

As well seismic vibrations move the room, audio rack and the pre-amp in synchronism (unison) so the influence is far less compared to lets say  somewhat of point source from the transformers and/or room air impacting the relatively remote vacuum tubes. Akin to sitting in a car and moving together on the one hand and standing by the road side and being hit by the car on the other hand. And not forgetting the myriad capacitors within, with their micron spaced plates separated by a compressible dielectric medium. As we know among other things  capacitance is proportional to the distance between the plates so vibration will constantly vary the capacitance therefore the sound.
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Re: Steve/Decware & Company.....Developments?
Reply #842 - 09/05/19 at 02:43:07
 
When talking about the axis, I think you are correct in that the energy enters the amplifier on all three axis.  You've seen how the platform absorbs and re-patterns that energy (watch the video). So then the concern becomes how does it deal with the energy from the audio rack or table. I have elected to used Sorbothane pucks and I leave the plastic on both sides of the puck so it is not sticky. Sorbothane is very sticky. This allows the platform to easily slide around so I think the combination of that and the Sorbothane itself doing a great job of dealing with sideways energy is about all we can do. If it were spiked then there would be no way to resist the sideways movements so Sorbothane is the only answer I can see.  It has to be the right viscosity and there can be no hard contact.

That all being well and good, I did find that the higher the energy from the ground/audiorack/ the better the platform absorbed it. In fact it took some staggering amounts.  For those tests I used a vibration detector for industrial machinery and did frequency sweeps to watch the platform absorb it. Anyway I noticed during those tests, that when I set the platform directly on the vibration source, in this case the table with a transducer screwed into the underside, the platform was able to absorb the vibration and performed better than when it was isolated.  Of course you will never have that much vibration in your rack, it was an extreme test, but it does illustrate that some component racks with lower mass when used with this platform may actually work better directly coupled to it.

Steve
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Re: Steve/Decware & Company.....Developments?
Reply #843 - 09/05/19 at 02:54:10
 

Quote:
As well seismic vibrations move the room, audio rack and the pre-amp in synchronism (unison) so the influence is far less compared to lets say  somewhat of point source from the transformers and/or room air impacting the relatively remote vacuum tubes. Akin to sitting in a car and moving together on the one hand and standing by the road side and being hit by the car on the other hand. And not forgetting the myriad capacitors within, with their micron spaced plates separated by a compressible dielectric medium. As we know among other things  capacitance is proportional to the distance between the plates so vibration will constantly vary the capacitance therefore the sound.


Exactly.

BTW, This is why beeswax caps sound so good. The wax reduces vibration, it's like a really good dampener.  Beeswax is why voice coil lead-in wire is so amazing.  A silver (a soft metal) foil braided around cotton and dipped in beeswax.  What else could stand being bent and flexed 10,000 times a second for hours a day, and last 50 years? Another good one is the VCAP due to the high precision winding making it harder for the foil to move.

Steve

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Re: Steve/Decware & Company.....Developments?
Reply #844 - 09/05/19 at 17:33:03
 
I'll have to read these posts in more detail when I have the time but by "seismic" I took it to mean the induced vibration from the ground/supports while music is playing and NOT the natural background vibration from the Earth and cars passing on the street.

So my order would be:

1. Seismic
2. Transformer
3. Air

What am I missing here?  For a TT, seismic takes into account foot-falls, not earthquakes.   Wink
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Re: Steve/Decware & Company.....Developments?
Reply #845 - 09/05/19 at 22:16:45
 
Steve,

This is the first time I have heard that vibrations is measured in dB. Usually it is linear acceleration (mm/s2) and amplitude (mm) and frequency (Hz) at which those parameters are experienced. If in case it is secondary noises that are emanating from the primary vibrationary forces that you are measuring than 67dB (noise i.e. sound) is pretty high don't you think (for noise from vibrations - like mini rattling). I did a quick check on the internet for an equivalence and it is equal to a electric tooth brush or washing machine. You will not be able to hear pure music over this noise contamination coming from your audio rack. Picture placing a washing machine on ones audio rack. Small computer type electric cooling fans for low end audio equipment at less than 40 dB on the audio rack seems repugnant.

It may be that as you were also playing music at the same time and are measuring sound effects of vibrations your results are cross contaminated with musical sound (i.e music and vibration related sounds have mixed) to give an overall elevated dB reading. But it still does not make sense as in that case the readings are not high enough and the peaks are few and periodic to be mixed with music. I am at a loss.

I was ignoring this fact all along but I just received a facebook notification that this video is uploaded there by you so thought I might alert you to this in case it is some error on your part (e.g. perhaps picking up music sound (in dB) instead of pure vibrations (in mm/s2 and mm or their inch equivalents) and folks on facebook might think it is some kind of gimmicky company as they may not know you as we do. On the other hand I will not be surprised if you may be doing something with these measurements that I do not understand as normally your pencils are pretty sharp because you are usually to the point.

Being a traditionalist I have to aske you, do you have vibration readings in acceleration and displacement?

Bonny
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Re: Steve/Decware & Company.....Developments?
Reply #846 - 09/06/19 at 02:32:18
 
Quote:
This is the first time I have heard that vibrations is measured in dB. Usually it is linear acceleration (mm/s2) and amplitude (mm) and frequency (Hz) at which those parameters are experienced.


Well I guess there's a first time for everything. ; )

My vibration tester measures in Acceleration (m/s2), Velocity (cm/s) and displacement (mm).

The Acceleration range is 0.1m/s2 ~ 199.9m/s2
The Velocity range is 0.01cm/s~19.99cm/s
The Displacement range is 0.001mm~1.999mm

None of these were any where near sensitive enough to measure the vibrations we're talking about.  In fact to test the platform using such a tester I had to bolt a transducer under the table top directly under the platform and turn it up to 10 watts or more to get any usable data. Problem is that those vibrations were at least 10 times higher than anything you're going to experience in a normal listening room so it's pretty useless data for this application.

In the video we were testing the platforms ability to reduce vibration that enters the tube created from the 60 cycle transformer and anything else that makes it's way into the amplifier chassis. The sound was ON during the video, you can hear my chair squeak, there was no contamination, and even if there were, the display would clearly show the frequencies of that contamination as it happens and the vibration frequencies would not move.

67dB is not a calibrated figure, because the microphone preamp had to be turned up all the way and the microphone preamp is what determines that figure.  What the video demonstrates is that there is a clear reduction in vibration with the platform.  67 vs 55 db are relative numbers.

Hopefully this clears things up a bit.  I have the Velocity figures on file, saved for part 2 of the testing video or the web page.  I had to use Velocity because I could get 99 points of measurement from it at the energy levels I was able to create during the tests.  Acceleration was a range about half that size. Displacement was even less.

Problem here is that I need 100X the resolution for what I want to measure.  Such a tester probably exists but I'm not going to pay 1000's of dollars for something I don't personally need.  I already know the platforms work, I just want some concrete numbers to publish on the web page when it goes up for sale.

I found my special Aston microphone with the unique solid metal tip design to couple perfectly to flat surfaces and it gives me exactly the information I am looking for.  The Acceleration, Velocity, Displacement are more for industrial machinery that is many Times the vibrational energy that you will find in your amplifier chassis.

Steve

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Re: Steve/Decware & Company.....Developments?
Reply #847 - 09/06/19 at 02:42:54
 

When I post the video on the web page I will have to set it up with detail about how it was measured and the relativity of the numbers. That way there are no distractions to take you away from the indisputable video evidence that the device works. Plus this is a test that anyone who wants to buy a similar microphone and preamp can do themselves. That way they don't have to take my word for it.

Steve
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Re: Steve/Decware & Company.....Developments?
Reply #848 - 09/06/19 at 03:02:50
 
Steve, agree the before/after numbers prove the efficacy of the platforms because they are relative to each other.

There is no doubt as to the authenticity of the experiment BTW. I was just getting confused with the unit i.e. dB used and the numbers that turned out and was wondering if there was any cross contamination of sound for those numbers to be what they are.

Might be helpful if the conditions under which the measurements were carried out are explained in case people who do not know you read it and jump to conclusions. Just trying to be of help and looking out for DECWARE.
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Re: Steve/Decware & Company.....Developments?
Reply #849 - 09/06/19 at 03:18:19
 
Well, you know I appreciate it.  You're helping me write the web page without even knowing it.

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