Very intriguing. Going to visit Ed Pong this weekend. Going your way soon Steve.
John

Hi Geno,
You bet I will and post about the visit. Yes he has a concert on Sunday and we plan on attending that if we can clear our eyes of smoke!
John

It sounds like you've built the perfect speakers around the PT-10 Steve. Fantastic results  :)

Tape is the ultimate dynamic media for reproduction that can not be duplicated digitally. It seems your stating that in your message. So exciting to be on that path of magnetic tape!

🍻

Hope the Monti is running.

John

I am using the Gizmo2 and no ZROCK2 or preamp.  Just Holo, ZP3 or Tape machine directly into the amp for the past week or so.

Steve

     
Hi John,

The speakers have been forcing me to up my game a bit.  Due to their large size and black finish, my phone that I use to make the videos and recordings will no longer focus properly.  It sees too much black and starts strobing the color... I finally had to give up and stopped using it.

Then there is the matter of the tapes.  My Infected Mushroom tapes played loud have such an intoxicating hit that I have desperately wanted to capture it for these videos but it just won't come through all the compression and limiting that the phone puts on it, not to mention YouTube.  

I have countless ways to record it, but getting that on a video without spending all day is the problem.  In any case I'm switching over to a better camera that can handle the lighting conditions and a separate battery operated stereo microphone/preamp with 20dB of gain so that I can run the  noisy preamp in the camera at a lower level and hopefully get decent recordings.  

This is a zero forgiveness way to record thou...  Unlike the very forgiving phone which kept anything from sounding too good or too bad, this setup will be brutally honest.

Even stepped up, I tried 6 times to record the tapes and it's just not going to capture it accurately.  The dynamics are still too soft and the weight is diminished.  So to hear the hit I'm talking about you'll just probably have to wait until DECFEST 2023 to hear them in person .

These speakers remind me a lot of the HDT's which are my goto speaker for flushing out all the weak links in the audio chain. They are great for amplifier design due to the lack of forgiveness and uncanny speed.  Lets you hear what's really there.

Anyway, because of these speakers and only because of these speakers, the Decware YouTube videos are transitioning into 4K with hi-res audio.  That would seem like a good thing, but the phone was so perfect on the small gimbal I have for it...  now I have a large gimbal I can barely operate and everything is heavy and cumbersome by comparison.  So really I blame it all on these speakers.

Steve : )

I remember some of Kenrick's videos raising this problem years ago, today he masters it to its best.
One of his latest :   https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OkreDNTGfmY

"Decware Folded Horn for Platinum-10, Lii Headwrecker, just came out from piano factory."

https://www.facebook.com/liiaudiobrand/

Kamran,
The Headwreckers are the real deal when it comes to weight. Well, both physical and sound reproduction weight Steve is in the process of making a stand on wheels to roll those around finding better positioning in his room to enhance imaging. I also listened to the HDTs with Liis Silvers and was impressed on how much the sound improved since Decfest last fall.
When time permits a review of the couple hours with Steve will be posted. Right now too much wonderful fun in the sun is to be had.
John

It didn't take long for them to end up here on the West end of the room.  They do in fact image much better as expected, and by comparison to before they sound less congested.  The stands improve the sound regardless of placement, but now it becomes the easiest speaker in the room to move... how ironic.

Quote:


My cat prefers Beethoven. FYI/FWIW/YMMV and all that.

^ Priceless

Phono rig has become second chair up against tape. Who or what contemporary is going to ban this album! Shameful idealists we have today.

UPDATE: 7/30/23

A lot of things have coalesced since moving the speakers to the West end of the room where they can breath.




Right now I have things dialed in and the sound stage is 20 feet behind the speakers, which would be 15 feet behind the curtain.  The focus is uncanny.




The bass

First thing noticed after moving the speakers to this end of the room was the imaging, but then very quickly it was the bass.  The hole seems to be gone.  This is like a gift that I wasn't anticipating and I am so grateful!  Holy crap is it nice without the hole.  

I believe much of my concern about the bass of these speakers may have come by unique circumstance.  I have full size horns on the West end of the room designed for bass only.  They are not being used, and have been successfully designed not to sympathetically resonate with the other speakers in the room,  but... while that has been true for the past 20 years, I have never actually built a giant pair of similar horns and placed them on the opposite end of the room and fired them directly at each other...  It's probable that when the speakers were on the East end of the room the hole was created by an interaction with the horns at the West end of the room.  This makes sense now, because none of the smaller speakers I have create a bass null at the listening position.



Frequency Balance

The raw character of these speakers is to be insanely articulate and a bit forward by themselves.  When I moved them to the other end of the room I wondered if that would change.  It did not.  Well, actually IT DID!  I was frankly stunned, because I couldn't figure out how that was possible, but they sounded nicely staged back with good depth and weren't forward sounding.  Then I realized I had the network for the Lii Song Fast 15 still on the Sarah 300B amp from a previous demo and forgot to take it off.  Honestly, I preferred them on, so I listened that way on and off for several days.

The overall balance on this end of the room is far better because there is even weight throughout the bass regions, so really it's just about getting it to layer back and get the 3D space of the sound stage perfectly balanced.


The Gizmo2

I am really starting to love this thing.  I realized I like the HDT better with the Gizmo2 when I accidentally left it on one day when switching speakers.  Anyway, I installed the Gizmo2 from the start, but have had it in bypass mode this whole time.  I un-bypassed it and things got better still.  More separation from front to back in the sound stage.  It spent a few days with it using the Fast 15 networks at the same time and found I adjusted the Gizmo 2 to max which means minimal effect.

Later I removed the network and have been listening without it using the Gizmo2 turned all the way up which is to say maximum effect.  Lon would like this.  


The Amp and Tubes

I got my collection of 300B tubes back from the Steve Guttenberg review and all I had during those several months was the Chinese tube I found that I liked and that we offer to ship with the amps.  I can say with confidence that the tube doesn't suck.  Especially after hearing it on these speakers.  The dynamics are anything but weak and the sound is beautiful.  It is so good in fact that it made me forget about the Western Electrics that I sent out for review for at least a couple of months or more before I began to wonder what they sounded like...

So the other day I popped in my Western Electrics during the middle of a listening session kind of wondering what I would hear change and as soon as I turned up the volume there was a sanctity in my listening space that just made me gasp and then stand there in amazement at the difference in transparency... so that was fun.

The Cables

This is where it gets kind of interesting...

I am driving the amplifier with a single pair of DECWARE RCA interconnects from the ZBIT to the Sarah 300B amplifier.  Feeding the ZBIT is DECWARE XLR cable from the Cambridge CXNv2.

Since it was only a single 1 meter pair of RCA I used a prototype cable I got from Lii Song that had a slightly silkier sound I thought might compliment these horns.  After going back and forth for a few days I was convinced the cable is a notch above our own cables.

Then it was time to introduce a ZROCK to see how using a different approach to regulating forwardness by pushing or pulling back the image compares to the Gizmo2... or at least that was the plan.

Since I had to add an additional set of interconnects to make the ZROCK2 a reality, and since I didn't want to mess with what I already had, I set the ZROCK up on the second set of inputs, so I went from a single 1 meter cable to a pair, and just to mess with my head, both were actually 2 meter cables.

At this point I found the textured silky transparency and sound stage of the Lii cable from the ZBIT better than the sound from the ZROCK going through the other cables.  I became convinced the presentation was better without the ZROCK and long lengths of cables.  I blamed it on the cables.

ZROCK3

I have been developing a ZROCK3 because I have been refining and improving the ZROCK for the past several months.  Now was a good time to test it.  The above results that I blamed on the cables I also blamed on the the new ZROCK3 that had no burn-in time on it.  

After a couple days of using it and going back and forth, I decided to take advantage of one of the bigger new features of the ZROCK3 which is a variable output level.  I wanted to match the gain exactly with the ZBIT so I could A/B things a little more seriously.  After adjusting it down to match other input everything completely changed for the better.  I was actually stunned.  The layering and depth, and focus and everything I love about a ZROCK was there but it sounds as transparent or more so.  It was such a game changer for the sound stage.  It is set to about 10:00 A.M. so the EQ hasn't kicked in yet.  I have never been able to listen to a ZROCK at this position before, or perhaps I could have, but never wanted to.

By being adjusted into nearly perfectly flat response and at unity gain relative to the other input from the ZBIT which itself was set to unity gain at 2 volts, the layers have been just coming into focus and getting deeper and deeper as we go.

Now, I am hearing the sound focus, timbre, layers, depth and transparency are all better than before when not using the ZROCK.  So this completely vaporized my observation/suspicions that the cables were a big reason why I initially didn't like the ZROCK in the path.

Anyway, the ZROCK3 dialed back to unity and the GIZMO2 are the only things being used to make these speakers a new reference for sound stage. They are like the House speakers but bigger and faster and more visceral in the bass.

After dark, even the most delicate music has immense density and dynamics and decay.  Hell, you can be mesmerized on these things listening to elevator music.

Anyway, what started this thread was the insane imaging and sound stage depth that came as a result of all this experimenting which came as a result of moving the speakers to the other side of the room where there is lots of space around and behind them.  Because of the difference in depth resolution this brought it was suddenly easy to hear differences and I became motivated to explore it.  On the East end of the room the idea would have never presented itself, and didn't.

So this years DECFEST will be a lot of fun having something new to hear.  I'm thinking about having attendees sign a release form before hearing them.  This is no doubt the best demo in the Decware listening room to date.  It is much like the large open baffles in size and scale, but with razor sharp focus and imaging that just has me shaking my wrecked head.


The Gizmo2, the ZROCK, the impedance switches on the amp and the sound stage switch on the amp along with tubes in the amp all finding their synergistic part in the play have created a virtual experience that exactly replicates the physical experience of getting a tonearm mechanically dialed in to a specific cartridge.  So picture a super high end cartridge where the tonearm wasn't ideal, the azimuth a touch off, the wrong mass, the vta set too high and this is what comes from the factory. You haven't heard the cartridge yet.  Get it dialed in and holy cow.  Lii Song driver in this horn, same thing.

Steve

Yes, there is going to be a ZROCK3.  It will be a ZROCK2 with a variable output control.  

The ZROCK2 was designed to go between the source and preamp.  In many cases with Decware, there is no preamp which is made possible by the input gain control on the amplifiers.

When you use a ZROCK and set it past 12:00 or so, you begin to create gain.  In most cases this is 3 to 6 dB of gain.  This is not a problem with Decware gear but can be a problem with non-Decware gear.  For example, a large solid state or tube amplifier without an input level control... expecting to see less than 1 volt of signal because it comes to full power with 1 volt, is not going to be noise free if you put 4 or 5 volts on the input.

Many people do just this, because they want to ZROCK all of their sources, not just one like the unit was designed for.  That means they put it between their preamp and power amp and that often makes noise or hum that can be audible.

If any of these amplifiers had an input gain control, placing the ZROCK between a preamp and amp would work without problems because you would simply turn the gain control down on the amp the same amount that the ZROCK turned the gain up.

By putting a variable output level feature into the ZROCK3 it is the same thing as putting an input level control on amplifiers that don't have one.  The product will be available this fall.  Don't know the price yet, it's going to be a lot harder to build so labor will shoot the price up.  We may be able to upgrade the ZROCK2 but again, too soon to price it until we find out if it's even possible without rebuilding the whole thing to get the parts in the right places.

My goodness. Here we go again.  

Sorry didn't see your post.  I will look it up when I can.

But tonight as I listen to these speakers in the raw with no ZROCK but instead the GIZMO2 as they will be presented during Decfest...


This friking speaker is just like my damn car!  Man...  When it's in the mood to show what it's really made of -- it's simply a holy shit moment!  You can't even believe it just did that!!  It presents itself as the 24 carat capstone of the pyramid by which all else is measured. You know the feeling... sideways at a 45 mph stab and then just starts pulling like a rocket!

So you are happy.

Then you want to share the experience with some else, you get them in the car and the performance is just hearsay.  A ridiculous disappointment. They came during the day when the track weather conditions were less than ideal.

The only trend with this kind of performance is that the conditions have to be exactly right and then it's really a holy shit moment!!
With the 'damn car' it's only when the temperature, humidity and pressure are at the ideal alignment and the car is in the mood to show off that it will happen.

Many will experience this at Decfest.  Hearing it one minute, usually during the day, and thinking not for me...  then hours later after dark hearing it and thinking holy crap what just happened?

I guess this is the nature of extreme high end.  It's not high end... it's extreme high end.  It's not street-able.  It's extreme.

I can already see the title of my summary post after the event:

“Sleepless in Peoria”

Hi Steve.. a most excellent new design.  I have bought some plans from the shop and will build a pair over the next few months.  I know this question comes up a lot on the internet, but I wanted to ask your thoughts specifically on the choice one has between MDF or Ply for the Headwreckers... I see you have used MDF for yours.  The cabinets look highly braced up, which I am guessing probably reduces the differences between the materials sonically.. Look forward to your comment.  With thanks!

Quote:


Plywood has a particular sound, as does MDF and other 3/4 material.  While it is stronger it is not as dense or as dead as MDF, not that MDF is dead but plywood is even hotter.  This is why you see such care into the bracing of this design.  It is by far the best large horn I've done to date.  Almost zero energy on the cabinet compared to a less braced cabinet from plywood, like say a Klipsch LaScala as an example.

If you're looking for coloration, and sometimes it is desirable, plywood will have more of it until both are braced to a state where neither can move.  At that point the plywood is lighter and can have hollow pockets in the interior ply's that can buzz like a loose screw in worse case scenarios.

MDF has to be sealed with a sanding sealer, every board on all 6 sides, before assembly.  It's not an option.  MDF is also flat.  Plywood seldom is, so if you don't want to wrestle large panels into place with clamps, MDF is a good go to.

With most speakers (Zen Master Series Open Baffles as an exception) I like a very inert cabinet.  If as a speaker designer I need the colorations of the cabinet to add simulated texture to drivers that have been squashed with excessive crossover networks, then I guess it makes sense to have a more lively cabinet but with crossover-less single driver and simple two-way loudspeakers of higher sensitivity you definitely don't need any artificial enhancements.

Also, thanks Trooppy for the sending out the good advise.  Follow exactly what I have done and get exactly the same result.  This is especially important for the interior and the final tuning with the round 3 inch thick pillow and felt surface treatment in strategic places.  This process took some time because it was tuned by ear using my own voice until it sounded right.  It is a sparse combination of craft felt that is no thicker than .3 mm I would say and the action on the pillow and holes around the pillow that keep the speed so high and all the reflections from the lower chamber absorbed.  

I believe the shape of that chamber in combination with the round pillow creates a diode affect on frequencies up to 3 inches, which is the entire midrange.  Sounds that go down into the chamber from the 4 holes around the pillow don't come back out.  The proximity of the pillow to the driver gives an immediate reflex without any waves standing on the surface which is ideal.  

All of this is about timing.  The horn design, the interior surfaces, the bracing.  It is to maximize speed as the sound moves through the horn and to make sure it doesn't stand inside the cavity that feeds the horn.  You see -- the faster a driver is the more important this becomes otherwise the speed reveals a time smear from the interior surfaces if they are covered in say 1 inch felt, foam, or fiberglass.  You would never hear this on a 88dB, 120 gram moving mass hifi driver.  But on a racehorse like this it is a different game with different rules.  This is like the Nascar of hifi when it is even mildly pushed.

Tom,

You and me both!

it’s on Qobuz as well, and one of my test tracks for bass.

Thanks HK.  Will check it out.

My reason for searching for bass demo songs is I am pretty aware of what the P10 driver is capable of from 200hz and up.   But I am intrigued by Steve’s comments about producing lower bass with a significantly lighter cone via the horn configuration.

My 15” bass drivers are 94db efficient 1W1M but they have to be moving a lot more cone mass.  How much tighter and dynamic can the base be with the single driver, ultra light cone approach?

Inquiring minds ant to know.

Thanks GS.   Will definitely check it out.  I am a bit of a bass head.

I didn't mean to take this thread off track but I am curious to hear what the folded horns can do and my ADHD kinda had me pinging between topics explored in three threads - bass, folded horn, and Decfest.