I’ve been messaging with another forum member about the ZR2 and bass. Bass is often talked about, yet I don’t hear the conversation going into the different ways bass interacts with the rest of the music and pressurized the room. How do we describe the different ways bass sounds and feels? I put together a playlist that showcases different bass sounds and feels. I’ve made some brief listening notes. I’m inviting others to share their listening notes so we as a community get a better understanding of how to language what we hear when it comes to bass.

A quick observation about bass. Bass seems to “carry” the higher frequencies around the room. This is why adding a boost to the lower midrange down through sub-bass into infrasound has the psychoacoustical effect of expanding the soundstage and giving an enveloping experience. This one part of why the ZR2 is such a magic maker.

I put together a playlist with some tracks that demonstrate different ways bass pressurized the room and sounds. I’ve added brief listening notes about each track. Often when I see people ask for bass demo tracks they get a bunch of suggestions that are usually mass quantities or into infrasound bass, not interesting or textured bass. The tracks in this playlist are demonstrations of interesting, textured and nuanced bass.

There is a lot going on in the bass range. If we look at a typical frequency response chart we see that 10-100hz, 100-1,000hz and 1,000-10,000hz each equal ~30% of the audible spectrum. My understanding is this is the psychoacoustic scale. Meaning most of use can easily distinguish between 60hz and 70hz, 600hz and 700hz, 6,000hz and 7,000hz. It’s extremely difficult (can it be done?) to make a distinction between 5,000 and 5,010hz.

From a different perspective a 50hz wave length is 22.6 feet (271.2 inches) a 5,000hz wave length is 2.71 inches.

10hz to 20hz is infrasound. So 20+hz. Still that is a lot of information.

The songs selected I find offer a good demonstration of the different way bass sounds and feels. I also find them fun.

The playlist!

https://open.qobuz.com/playlist/15808812

https://tidal.com/browse/playlist/12c04224-060a-4de8-b0bf-a029e2ce7913


Michael E - Beauty & Seduction | the continual bass hits are sharp and quick. When played loudly, almost anxiety producing as it can sound (almost like) the drivers are bottoming out. There is no distortion or any artifacts.

Without changing tubes I use this track as a gauge to see if tubes are going soft.

Elder Island - Garden | Rolling bass. A few quick hits then a long slower wave rolls through the room.

Sambox - Yakwa | Smooth rolling bass with a little bit of texture.

Sambox - Darling | Violent bass hits, as fast as the hit happens it’s gone. Around 30 seconds in the hits change. There is still the violent hit along with a sliding bass line.

Solar Moon - Sugar Mode | Slow deliberate bass. Hangs around the room for a bit. Slowly fills and empties the room of bass(pressure)

Roos Jonker & Dean Tippet - Dean | The bass sounds like it was recorded in highly absorbent room. As if someone went in and artificially took the reverb off the bass.

Gone Gone Beyond or The Human Experience* - In too Deep | Bass pressure on and off. There is texture to it as well.

*I’ve always know the group as “the Human Experience” not sure why it’s showing up as Gone Gone Beyond now.

Opium Moon - Gravity = Love | Bass has so much texture and decay. Rumbles and flows through and around the room.

Opiuo - Snorkle | Starting at ~1:17 Explosive bass. What I find so interesting about this track is the dead space, lack of sound. If someone had a mute button that was instantly fast and didn’t make any kind of audible noise turning it on and off to the music this would be the track to demonstrate that effect.

Spunkshine - The Cautioned Apparatus | Fat juicy balls of bass! Really wild, sounds like large balls of bass all over the place. lots of fun. It’s a head scratcher how is achieved and played back.

Yaima - Our Game | Wall of pressure! After the wall of pressure the bass sloshes around the room.

I didn't pick songs like "Flight of the Cosmic Hippo" or "Train Song" as there is nothing inherently different about the bass than you will find in other songs. Both of those song have a focus on the bass for sure.

The room has a lot to do with how bass is perceived. Tracks like Opiuo - Snorkle the silence is really room dependent.

If you want something that has outrageous sub into infrasound textured bass you can try Mirage of Deep - Tokio I’ve never hear or should I say felt bass like this ever. So much nuance, texture, subtly and character. I also don't think most systems can reproduce it.

I’d love to hear others listening notes on the bass. Most of the tracks you can hear what I’m noting in the first minute of the song, except the one that starts at ~1:17.

Great idea, I agree. I am afraid a lot of us were conditioned to feel like strong bass that can be masking of bass complexity, and off balance the rest might be feel like good bass.

I got over that in part because loud and inarticulate low bass gives me fatigue. As much though, I really need to hear the nuances and textures of bass while focussing on a setup for good bass integration with the rest, and across recordings. I really don't like what sounds like bass dominance in the overall balance to me. My speakers are smallish, with smaller drivers, and they go pretty low, but not easy to feel strong body hit here and have it work across all music. I love to feel it enough though. I actually think so much of our musical perception is feel as much as hearing.

Given a choice, I would much rather have less very low bass if needed to solve muddle and occasional boom which masks bass speed and complexity. Going for great bass across recordings... tricky, but worth it to me as much as recordings and my system/room will allow. Where the pre-stages can really help, fine tuning the baseline one way or another to better pull different recordings. Going for "real" rather than impressive here, but then, close to real is pretty impressive when it happens.

Exploring a variety of well done bass recordings is a great idea!

A thread like this is when I really am sorry I have not been able to broach quality internet music streaming yet.

One of the main things I love about open baffles, bi-amped, with a sub amp driving the bass drivers, is the “mid-bass”. Bass that pops. Think, Mingus on the stand-up bass, plucking away.

In my open baffle setup, I ended up taking the REL sub out, because I felt that it muddied the sound. YMMV.

This is going to be a very interesting discussion and timely indeed.

I have been listening to a lot of older music, especially jazz lately and I have rarely even turned on my H frame subwoofer for almost a month. I do have some noticeable effect from it just being in the room, though.


I do have Tidal and I've enjoyed the items on that playlist.

While I fully agree that there is not much music down low, I do sometimes miss the lower frequencies that are a part of the venue, such as the ultra low impacts from a full orchestra performing in a great theater.
I rarely hear that reproduced well. Those subharmonics are often mud by the time the reproduction process has chewed them up.
I want better.

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I guess my question is are you really missing frequency or are you missing amplitude aka intensity?

Let me start by being very clear this is JMO/FWIW/YMMV and all that. I'm certainly not trying to tell anyone what they hear or how to listen. This is just my experience.

I've been fortunate that pretty much all my live music experience over the last several years has been listening to great orchestras in great halls. And I  just don't hear sub bass or even low bass in real life. When the music calls for it I hear plenty of mid-bass, generally down to about 60ish Hz, which is roughly an octave above the lowest note on a (standard) piano and close to the lowest note on a double bass, but I just don't hear (or feel) deep bass, much less sub bass.

I feel like my 6 1/2" single driver speakers do a great job of reproducing the frequency response of a symphony orchestra. What they don't do is reproduce the size and power of 80 musicians in a hall that holds thousands of people. But (IMO) that isn't about frequency response, that's about the difference between two speakers 7' apart and 80 musicians on a stage the size of a basketball court. I suspect that recordings with deep bass and systems that can reproduce it tend to give the same "feel" as a concert hall that is pressurized by an orchestra, an orchestra playing loud but not necessarily plumbing the bottom of the frequency spectrum. An example would be when a trumpet section really lets it fly you can feel it. But playing a trumpet loud on my stereo, even if I match the dB, doesn't feel the same. And that isn't because I'm missing deep bass, its because a trumpet in a hall is different than speakers in a listening room.

Now, I'll freely admit I've never heard a 15" open baffle or the new Head Wrecker speakers powered by a Decware amp in a properly treated room so maybe I'm missing out. But back in the day when I lived in the big city and would visit high end stereo dealers I heard plenty of "full range" systems. And they were impressive, but they still didn't sound like a symphony orchestra.

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Sure, in theory. But in practice, with the exception of pipe organ which I'll claim is a special case, the actual number of notes in the repertoire below 40 Hz is miniscule. And if you want to listen to pipe organ or those rare pieces with bass that low, or electronic music (and that is properly recorded) then that is a different discussion. But you can listen to a whole lot of orchestral music, or jazz or piano music, before you encounter a note that is below 40 Hz, which is 5 lines below the bottom of the bass clef.

Just opening this up to discussion, but isn’t there an argument to be made that even if most instruments don’t dip below 40Hz, having access to a woofer or sub that goes accurately down to 20Hz or below conveys a better sense of dimensionality as there is still a lot of information/energy below your typical 40Hz.  I thought that was REL’s position too though I could be wrong?  Also, don’t some folks add super tweeters for the same reason? Not because they want or can hear anything above 18,000 Hz, but having access to energies stored above that spectrum nonetheless ads something to the music?

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That's really the bottom line to me. What is accurate is a (potentially) interesting academic discussion but what matters to us is do we like the way our system sounds. And a lot of people like bass, and there is nothing wrong with that.

Groovy….fantastic thread.  Last night I listened to all the tracks in my work vehicle just to get a sense of the tracks.  Your music selection and accompanying descriptions were spot on. I’m going to pipe them up on my reference system in the next day or so.  

I personally enjoy bass that is dialed in where it’s tight and articulate, while not being overly stated.   Room treatment and the physical dimensions of your listening space can make or break how the bass is perceived as the frequencies pressurize your room.  The last time I heard phenomenal bass was years ago at Decfest with the corner imperial horns.  We’re talking bass that you can feel that goes right through your core.  

With the Err’s in my space, I get fairly articulate bass out of the speakers, but my listening space is lacking room treatment right now, and with my open concept floor plan, a lot of detail gets lost.  Future project is to build panels that can close off the area from my living room to my kitchen area.

For those with subs….placement in the room can play a big part with getting the sound to integrate with your main speakers.  Mine are just  aft of my listening chair.  My powered sub is crossed over just below where my Err’s can’t hit.  My Velodyne is sealed and has a 10” front firing, and a 12” down firing woofer.  Yes it can shake the room, but I really only push it for when I watch movies.  Explosions and planes sound great!!  For my music listening, I like to know it’s there without being overly stated.  

Also… lifting your sub off the floor and getting it on a platform can do wonders.  Watch some of Dennis Folely of Acoustic Fields YouTube videos when he talks about bass….the guys knows his stuff.  His recommendations can really help.  

Dom

A lot of great comments and insights!

Geno, I also removed my stereo subs. I tried a lot of different approaches to get it to sound right. Yes it was very impressive having 3x 12” OB drivers a side. I ended up preferring no subs. My speakers do play below 30hz. If my speakers played to 40hz maybe I could blend them and be much happier with the results.

Manny, is it that they don’t have enough bass or is it that the bass is different than you’re used too? In an untreated room you might have 15-20db or more boost in certain frequencies.

There is an effect that ultra low and infrasound has on music. Many years ago when Wilson Audio released their Thor’s Hammer subwoofer I was at a demonstration. The Alexandria XLF speakers were in the system too, so plenty of bass ability. A choir in a church was played. The presenter then would turn the sub gain from the blended point to off. It was wild how the highs became “more airy” when the sub was active. The voices hung in the air more. So something is going on when the ultra low energy is present.

Is a subharmonic one that goes down from the fundamental? Example, a kick drum at 50hz the first subharmonic is 25hz? is that a thing? I assume that it works that way, I find anything online that discussed that. If that is true then clearly reproducing the subharmonics is something to consider.

As for what is “accurate”? If I’m having a good experience listening to music I’m happy.

CAJames, The instruments themselves might not produce low bass, what about the act of playing them? A kick drum might be 50hz, What is hz of the foot hitting the peddle which is transfering the force into the ground? If the drum kit is on a riser what is the risers frequency that is being picked up? I’m guessing some of that energy is down in the 20hz range. I really don’t know just postulating.

Will nailed it for me. Having complex bass is more desirable than strong bass.

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I don't think that's a thing. Overtones are thing, undertones are at most an artifact. The fundamental is a low as it goes.

Overtones are the e.g. string vibrating at half, third, quarter etc. the fundamental wavelength to give the harmonics aka overtones. But there is nothing that is twice the fundament wavelength in length to vibrate so nothing to create an "undertone". You can make the same argument with a lot more math doing a Fourier analysis.


 

I agree that the bass dialed in pays off in spades for ambiance and room cues.

I'm less certain that there are recorded overtones from interaction between bass drums and platforms etc.

One thing is certain: the clarity and density that Decware components produce in playback really allows one to hear and tailor the sound of all the frequencies if one wishes. There are a lot of limitations of recordings and rooms, there are less limitations with Decware components matched with excellent sources and speakers. And if you can modify. . .WHOA.

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Yes, I know that feeling. But I will argue that it is in fact totally "tonal" because as you say you can hear it tuned to a pleasant cord. You may have never heard a timpani out of tune or hit the wrong note but I have, and it is just as unpleasant as any other (really loud) wrong note.

And you're right, you do feel it. People around here love their 15" drivers. A timpani is a 30" driver and you literally beat it like a drum. That generates an impulse that you just aren't going to reproduce at home. But not because you are missing low frequencies,  you are missing the energy of the mallet strike that a timpani focuses and couples very efficiently to the air. Timpani go down to low C (2 lines below the staff) which is like 65 Hz, but mostly they play above 80 Hz. Most mini-monitors can go well below 80 Hz, but they are missing the 30" woofer so they can play the notes, but they can't really do justice to the impact.

I live close to the launch pads at Vandenberg, and have experienced many rocket launches (at all hours of the day or night). They create a lot of really low bass, and infra bass. And I can assure you that 5, 10 or 20 Hz is a very different experience than what you get listening to the timpani.

Of course, how you go about reproducing the unreproducible in a way that makes you happy is entirely up to you.

Speaking of tympany:



My orchestra director hated me when this album came out.

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I know exactly what you are talking about. That rush may seem "atonal" because it is so intense, but it is more or less an actual note. More for a timpani a little less for a concert bass drum. You feel the energy, because it resonates with your body, but your ear may not be able to process the frequency because it is overloaded.

I've had an analogous but different experience listening to a big band trumpet section in a club. When they lean into it you get a similar physical feeling, but it much higher frequency that is more isolated in your head than the chest and torso like you get from a drum. And then with a rocket launch it is literally a whole body experience, you can feel the waves cycling through your body 3 or 5 or 10 times a second.

One of my favorite recordings is Fleetwood Mac's Mystery to me. There are a couple places in two of the songs where a large drum is hit and if your system is up to it, you will actually hear the skin of this giant drum 'flap'. It has happened in other albums but not as noticeably. To hear not only the sound of an instrument but also the mechanics is the difference.

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It's funny that in popular culture it is the woman who drags her man kicking and screaming to the concert. But way back when in dating situations, I found it much easier to take a girl to a ball game than the Philharmonic. They would go, but more as an excuse to get dressed up and go out to dinner, not to hear the concert. Lately I've been fortunate to be able to fly out to see my buddy and his family. We grew up playing in orchestra together and we go to the Cleveland Orchestra or see visiting orchestras at the University of Michigan, most recently the Berlin Phil. Both our wives are happy to be left out.

Sorry, I guess I've wandered pretty far OT....

4krow,
I intend to stream some "Mystery To Me" later and see if I can find that flap between the drum attack recorded well.

Mick Fleetwood, once they made some money, had an impressive "too BIG" drum set.
I've only seen them a few times, but more than once he had an enormous kick and his low floor tom was huge and tuned very low. It looked like two small bass drums braced together, but I never got a good close look at it.

To say that his drums were all toned lowish would be an understatement.

Here’s another track I listened to tonight (cranked it up a bit as the wife and kids were at my in-laws) that has deep articulate bass that you feel in your bones, but it’s not in your face punchy type.

Thx—here’s another good one:


living water baptist church

Thanks for the great set list groovysauce.  Great tracks for the topic!

I have always felt the music floats above the bass and when quality open baffle or other subs were added to my system was surprised at improved air and presence.

The first pic shows my current listening with the two bass panels to outside housing 4 fifteen inch open baffle drivers driven by 2 rythmiks.

Your set list is going to make me now add back my four bucket subs into the mains system. Where are they now?

They are n the garage with a big crown amp providing the bottom end to a pair of ob caintuck audio Betsy’s, bothering the neighbours and making washing the car more fun! Pic two is old one with subs shown.

Looking forward to running through your songs with the bucket subs engaged.

Thanks!

 I just have to add something here that you guys might get a kick out of. Many years ago, I was invited to a piano recital. The young woman clearly wanted to make an impression, and THAT she did. To this day I have never ever seen anyone bang on the keys like that! I swear her butt came off the bench more than once! I will never forget it, and I left at 'half time', a little shaken.

Oh no……not a banger!

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They are GR-Research Triple threat OB subs. I say OB subs are the way to go. The same way OB speakers have a lightness and airyness to them the subs offer something similar in an earth shaking way.

OB are not as popular as box speakers, it continues for subs. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Servo control sounds great on paper and in practice. The issue I ran into is I cannot get them to properly blend with my Quintets I even tried a MiniDSP unit to maximize control. I tried all sorts of placements including some more radical placements and couldn't get it to sound right. No matter what I did it slowed down the bass a little bit. The Quintets play to 28hz before rolling off in my room. They still will send subbass rumbles through the concrete slab floor when called for. I opted to keep the subs out of the system.

Kamran, How did the new treatment effect the bass in your room?

I really wish there was a "like" button so many good thought provoking responses. I'm sorry for losing track of this thread! Thank you all for your contributions!

On another thread Palomino posted this track:

Ghost Rider - Makes Us Stronger

All add another too!

Mirage of Deep - A Thousand Nights

Great thread GS.   I just hopped over from the folded horn thread.  It will take some time to read, think and listen to what's presented here.  I did skim it.  Sorry if any of my points below have already been discussed.

I'm very much into all kinds of bass.   I will definitely check out the Fleetwood Mac track 4K suggested as one of the things I listen to for evaluating my bass playback is bass drums.  I love being able to hear the differences in how the bass drums are stuffed.

My system is tri-amped.  25th covers down to about 200hz,  Crown amp covers down to about 40hz and a plate amp down to 20hz on my 15" sub.

Key to my bass response now are the P10 drivers.  I know they don't play low but they give that upper bass definition in spades.  That's why I suggested that track - because I think the P10s are very dynamic and that track is an example of dynamic, digital bass.

Second are the Acoustic Elegance 15" drivers.  I haven't tried 20 different bass drivers but of the 4 I have tried these are far superior.  Tight, musical, and as far as I can tell, tonally accurate.  For open baffle drivers, they provide a good amount of the pop you can get from box speakers.

The weakness in my bass response is the sub and its wild that I come over to find comments about where I think to go with the open baffle bass.  I may just build Danny's design.  

I blend the three drivers together by listening and measuring.  I measure one driver system at a time and tweak, then add all three together and tweak some more by ear.  Sub bass is the most difficult, but given I am relegating them to the lowest portion of the spectrum, I get them blended OK.

I am pretty pleased with my end result.  I does subtle detail when I want it, accurate timbre and when I'm in the mood, punching room shaking (but not muddy) wall of chest thumping electronic bass.

I'll be listening at the fest to see what the folded horn can do.  I expect definition to be there, but fullness of bass?  Will I miss that sub bass?  I've heard the Lii C10s and S10s in their Lii produced cabinets and while they produced low bass and good volume, but I felt the bass was muddy.

I've commented about this before but Steve has these corner horn bass cabinets connected to a zen amp along with some DM945s (I think).  That combo produced some of the most pleasing bass I've heard.   We did not play punchy bass on them so I can't comment on that but they played low and the soundwave enveloped you and gave your whole body a nice bass buzz.

Soooo, I am getting the best bass of my life, but always feel it can be better.  I think technically, people could have issues with my setup.  Phase issues, timing issues, etc but it sounds good to me.  As I said, the sub is the next frontier.  

Heres an acoustic bass track that I like to test bass with:  Bass Drops, Nenad Vasilic   https://tidal.com/browse/track/114542270