Welcome, Guest. Please Login or Register
Decware Audio Forums
07/02/22 at 18:12:12




Pages: 1
Send Topic Print
Room treatment (Read 391 times)
timstar
Verified Member
**




Posts: 3
Room treatment
05/26/22 at 00:26:32
 
I recently hired Dennis from Acoustic Fields. Has anyone heard of him, liked or disliked his service?
Back to top
 
 
  IP Logged
BicycleJoe
Seasoned Member
****


It's All In One Note

Posts: 115
Re: Room treatment
Reply #1 - 05/26/22 at 02:29:47
 
I have an appointment for a free consultation coming up next month while I do my own research. Steve has three white papers on room treatment theory, layout, diffusion, absorption etc gave me some idea, he ahared some formulas

Room Treatments Where do I start?
An introduction and overview of room treatments.

Optimal Listening Room dimensions
You could be sitting in a potentially perfect room and not know it.

How to setup a room without treatment
Another must read for anyone setting up a dedicated or semi-dedicated room.
Back to top
 
 

OnOrder
*Rachel SE 34.6IANVmods*ZP3ANVmods*ZLC*
Due summer 2023
In House *JVC QLY-66F DD TT*JBL 240Ti* *Rega IO*Carver Receiver*

  IP Logged
GroovySauce
Seasoned Member
****




Posts: 411
Re: Room treatment
Reply #2 - 05/26/22 at 13:21:43
 
I briefly spoke with Dennis when I was buying acoustic foam from him. He is very direct and to the point. He was excited when we found a way for me to spend less money (spend less money with him.) After our call my take away is he really wants people to have great sound.

His foam is fantastic! I replaced 703 DIY panels with his foam and it was as, or more dramatic than putting the 703 panels in.

My brother has his diaphragmatic absorbers and they are incredible. I'm adding them to my system in the future.
Back to top
 
 

Rega P8 | Zephyr MIMC★ | Innuos ZENith MK3 | May KTE DAC | ZP3 25th ZMC1 | ZRock2 25th | EMIA Remote Autoformer | Torii MKIV 25th | Snake River Audio Cables | PAP Quintet 15 1.6 Voxativ Custom XO & SRA cables| Torus AVR15 | Acoustic Treatments
  IP Logged
BicycleJoe
Seasoned Member
****


It's All In One Note

Posts: 115
Re: Room treatment
Reply #3 - 06/06/22 at 23:50:15
 
Groovey Sauce tomorrow I'm going to talk to Dennis for the 15 minute.
I'm not ready to buy but I'm leaning towards using his acoustic foam for my 90 inch iving room window recessed with a 13 inch shelf. That's my first target but I want to do a little research. I really like Geno's panels but I already spoke with the place in New Mexico that makes them.They're having shipping problems right now. I need be able to pull them back to the side for sunlight and fresh air. I think on something that large a few diffusers on parts of it too. That's something I'm gonna ask Dennis.
Back to top
 
 

OnOrder
*Rachel SE 34.6IANVmods*ZP3ANVmods*ZLC*
Due summer 2023
In House *JVC QLY-66F DD TT*JBL 240Ti* *Rega IO*Carver Receiver*

  IP Logged
GroovySauce
Seasoned Member
****




Posts: 411
Re: Room treatment
Reply #4 - 06/07/22 at 11:17:49
 
BicycleJoe, Let us know what he suggests.

I'm recommending the Acoustic Fields foam. It is so much better than 703.

Back to top
 
 

Rega P8 | Zephyr MIMC★ | Innuos ZENith MK3 | May KTE DAC | ZP3 25th ZMC1 | ZRock2 25th | EMIA Remote Autoformer | Torii MKIV 25th | Snake River Audio Cables | PAP Quintet 15 1.6 Voxativ Custom XO & SRA cables| Torus AVR15 | Acoustic Treatments
  IP Logged
BicycleJoe
Seasoned Member
****


It's All In One Note

Posts: 115
Re: Room treatment
Reply #5 - 06/11/22 at 19:37:31
 
@GroovySauce Took me a minute to go through all the information that Dennis shared with me but it comes down to him recommending his ACDA-10/12 Activated Carbon Diaphragmatic Absorber treatment because of low frequency. He shared that the foam is good for mid and high frequencies, but in a room like mine I need to worry about booming low frequencies. The day after we talked he created a new video that summarizes the information he shared. All this is for the room's front end.

https://youtu.be/jYNmNxqaSL4
Back to top
 
 

OnOrder
*Rachel SE 34.6IANVmods*ZP3ANVmods*ZLC*
Due summer 2023
In House *JVC QLY-66F DD TT*JBL 240Ti* *Rega IO*Carver Receiver*

  IP Logged
jec3504
Seasoned Member
****


I'm on the live and
learn program.

Posts: 282
Re: Room treatment
Reply #6 - 06/21/22 at 18:15:49
 
Watched a video of Dennis talking about using only vertical diffusers on the back wall these days. My fiberglass ceiling tiles give me about 7.5' clearance in my room. With that low ceiling would using horizontal on the top or bottom part of the front wall be beneficial.

Planed on using 703 DIY panels on the back wall and to address the rest the absorption issues. Almost have the room empty to start..

Using the Acoustic Fields foam would put a big dent into my budget. Guess I'm sticking with the 703. The best I can do for now.

With the your front wall diffused Nigel does it affect your speaker placement? With a focus on soundstage boundaries? Moving speakers back and forth increase or decrease the benefits using the diffusers?

Thanks, Joseph
Back to top
 
 

Waiting for ZRock2-25th
Pi4 Bifrost2 Freya+
2 Aegir ,Torii MK 5-25th
RP600M F-15 W-15
  IP Logged
BicycleJoe
Seasoned Member
****


It's All In One Note

Posts: 115
Re: Room treatment
Reply #7 - 06/21/22 at 23:46:17
 
Dennis was real easy to talk to, he is more than opinionated.He is an authority and he knows his science. But to break it down to simple terms he recommends having a plan with a beginning, a middle. and an end where are you going to start what is your second area of concerns and what do you need to dostep by step. If you work in precise areas with a goal you know what to do. Where you want to go. What's your biggest problem area and what is the solution or the different solutions to consider. I'd have trouble raising my arms in your room, my biggest problem is the 90 inch three bay window in the front of my room. He was not afraid to say such and such is a waste of money, he clearly states that most people selling product and giving advice have never actually done a proper room but are educated in theory not practice.
Back to top
 
 

OnOrder
*Rachel SE 34.6IANVmods*ZP3ANVmods*ZLC*
Due summer 2023
In House *JVC QLY-66F DD TT*JBL 240Ti* *Rega IO*Carver Receiver*

  IP Logged
jec3504
Seasoned Member
****


I'm on the live and
learn program.

Posts: 282
Re: Room treatment
Reply #8 - 06/22/22 at 01:12:13
 
Hi BicycleJoe,

I'm 6' tall and can't raise my arms all the way up in my room. Have a plan , did a little home work last night. Found the areas that needed to be addressed with absorption. Rubbermaid 6' lockers filled with blankets and quilts moved about in the room. Have the room empty almost and was able to move my speakers into a new location. My plans started 2 years ago when I painted this room 36'x20' with some little out coves. Painted a lot of empty rooms in my day to realize this would be fantastic room for a HIFI system. Don't have any windows to worry about. Asbestos tile with few coats of paint must help with reflection.

Front wall diffusion: My thinking it's going adjust the front boundary. Plan is doing a whole wall buildout. My son's been helping and wants to get his hands dirty so win win for sure. So far we are all very happy with the direction it's going. Been out voted so a 70" TV will be living on that wall. So that is one problem to overcome.

All in all back in the day people used curtains and drapes in the rooms with artsy tapestries hanging on the walls . 1973 sounded real good. Now that I'm aware of where that sound came from things are looking bright. lol

Thanks,

Joseph
Back to top
 
 

Waiting for ZRock2-25th
Pi4 Bifrost2 Freya+
2 Aegir ,Torii MK 5-25th
RP600M F-15 W-15
  IP Logged
kulafu
Seasoned Member
****




Posts: 162
Re: Room treatment
Reply #9 - 06/29/22 at 13:48:36
 
I had a chat with Dennis yesterday.  My problem frequencies ranged from 48Hz to 215Hz (48Hz at 1300% over flat, 51Hz at 900Hz and a dip of 72Hz under flat.  This is with room dimensions of 11X9X23 and use of 12in or 15 Altec coax drivers.  He recommended use of Carbon Absorption Panels to address 125Hz and below.  I ran out of time to discuss alternatives such as Acoustic Field Foam that GS recommended.  Or use different low frequency drivers.....Certainly, the investment of 12 of these Carbon Absorption Panels is way out of my budget (provide an 80% solution).  I could incrementally build up but even then, I would have to consider the cost benefit of these vs the acoustic foams and use different drivers.  For those of have used the room analysis, it would be interesting to know if your LF drivers and/or room dimensions drove the recommendation from Dennis.  My length was fine but the width and height were problematic.  It might be worth building a shed with the ideal dimensions rather than investing on acoustic panels.  Bottom line, with the information that I got from Dennis was hugely beneficial along with his videos and literature.  I can weigh my options and go from there.  This is what makes this so much fun!
Bob
Back to top
 
 

Caintuck Lii15 1.5" Padauk/Omega S3HOXRS, UFO25th, CSP3 25th mods, Holo May KTE , HQPlayer/USB/Ultrarendu/EtherRegen, Roon, Qobuz, Tidal and Spotify(various ICs and Power Cables)
Altec 601s, CSP3 25th Mods, Torii Jr, PI2AES or IFI Zen Stream, Pontus II
  IP Logged
GroovySauce
Seasoned Member
****




Posts: 411
Re: Room treatment
Reply #10 - 06/29/22 at 14:32:48
 
I highly recommend Acoustic Fields foam. The foam is for mid and high frequencies.

According to Dennis stacking the foam 3+ sheets thick will start to manage lower frequencies. He offers a product for the ceilingCPA Ceiling Perforated Absorber that looks like he took a sheet of peg board and stacked 3 pieces of foam on it. If there is peg board between the layers of foam I do not know. Stated absorption is down to 65hz.

If you are handy you might try making a similar design for managing upper bass.

Im moving into a new home. The room Im going to use for the stereo is 20x40x8 with a low vaulted ceiling.

Im going to be adding ~20 of the Carbon Panels. Dennis will be getting back to me next week with a plan.

Bass is some powerful stuff! Car stereos 100s of feet away can be heard thumping inside a house.

The room sees energy. Dimensions drive the treatment more than speaker size. If there is a +12db peak at 40hz I dont think it matters if it was generated by 1x 12, 4x 6" or 4x 15 drivers.

He never said anything about 8x 15 drivers. If I had a 12x16x8 room he might have mentioned something about too many drivers?

In a shed you will need to manage the low frequencies. What about noise reduction from outside? If going the shed route spray foam insulation is the way to go. In your current home Retrofoam injection insulation will lower outside noise transmission and give better insulation, win win!

Joseph, Consider building a rig with absorption that is easy to move. Place it in front of the TV when not in use.

Back to top
 
 

Rega P8 | Zephyr MIMC★ | Innuos ZENith MK3 | May KTE DAC | ZP3 25th ZMC1 | ZRock2 25th | EMIA Remote Autoformer | Torii MKIV 25th | Snake River Audio Cables | PAP Quintet 15 1.6 Voxativ Custom XO & SRA cables| Torus AVR15 | Acoustic Treatments
  IP Logged
kulafu
Seasoned Member
****




Posts: 162
Re: Room treatment
Reply #11 - 06/29/22 at 16:53:14
 
GS,
Thanks for that!  That is a lot of Carbon panels for your new listening room.  Your explanation of LF drivers vs room dimension makes sense to me.  Now it is a matter of Carbon panels or multiple layers of Acoustic Foam to address the lower frequencies!  I believe you mentioned that you used 703's before.  Qualitatively, is the performance benefit of the acoustic foam worth the extra cost?  Thanks again!
Bob
Back to top
 
 

Caintuck Lii15 1.5" Padauk/Omega S3HOXRS, UFO25th, CSP3 25th mods, Holo May KTE , HQPlayer/USB/Ultrarendu/EtherRegen, Roon, Qobuz, Tidal and Spotify(various ICs and Power Cables)
Altec 601s, CSP3 25th Mods, Torii Jr, PI2AES or IFI Zen Stream, Pontus II
  IP Logged
GroovySauce
Seasoned Member
****




Posts: 411
Re: Room treatment
Reply #12 - 06/30/22 at 00:07:06
 
Bob, Yes its a ton of absorption! Cheesy (actually 2 tons.) They weigh 200 lbs each!

I did and still do have DIY 703 based absorbers in my room.

Often people will comment that when too much treatment is used the room starts to sound dead and dark. That is the sound of 703.

I slowly added the DIY 703 panels. 2-4 at at time. I got to a point where the sound stopped getting better and started to notice the limitations of the treatment.

Removing 4 of the DIY 703 and replacing them with larger 25x72" the room took a large jump in sonics. The dead and dark that was creeping in was gone. Subtle nuances came out in the mid and highs. The depth of detail and information is spectacular.

Im very excited to get rid of all the 703 and use exclusively Acoustic Fields Foam.

4 Carbon panels might provide significant improvement. Add in an order of the foam and you might have your socks knocked off! ? Treating the first reflection points and a bit of LF absorption should be really sweet.

Due to supply chain issues the DIY foam is only available in XL sheets 55x75. If you are comfortable with DIY. That would be the cheapest option.

If you buy the Foam Frame Panel they are spendy.

If possible go with Acoustics Fields Foam. It is far superior to 703. If budget is an issue I would suggest wait and getting the foam when finances allow it.
Back to top
 
 

Rega P8 | Zephyr MIMC★ | Innuos ZENith MK3 | May KTE DAC | ZP3 25th ZMC1 | ZRock2 25th | EMIA Remote Autoformer | Torii MKIV 25th | Snake River Audio Cables | PAP Quintet 15 1.6 Voxativ Custom XO & SRA cables| Torus AVR15 | Acoustic Treatments
  IP Logged
Same Old DD
Seasoned Member
****




Posts: 195
Re: Room treatment
Reply #13 - 06/30/22 at 04:39:40
 
Interesting, Groovy.
I have removed three of my DIY panels as well. I had eight once I kludged them all together. Plus two round face corner stacks of 705.
Corner stacks stay for now.

I was nearing conniption at first because of two window walls with which to contend and trying to manage bridling that some. I put too much absorption in my room at first.
My settled listening showed that I had gone a little overboard with the materials at first.

I have kind of found myself within the Grimani idea set that you should have an asymmetrical room and I already had that in spades. Learning what to tame has been the lesson I had to attend.

Things are better now and I just messed with it all again, but it's coming together.
Together enough that I can focus on getting my cables in better shape next.

Still, I want to try some of the Acoustic Fields Foam!
Back to top
 
 

SE84Cs Mono'ed, McIntosh MC2500, Yamaha Pre, Dual TT, Ortofon, JBL2235x4 modded for OB, Visaton B200 OB, Kleenline Power, Revox & Sony R-R
  IP Logged
GroovySauce
Seasoned Member
****




Posts: 411
Re: Room treatment
Reply #14 - 06/30/22 at 12:35:41
 
DD, What did you observe when you had too much absorption?

BicycleJoe, Have you come up with a plan?

703 does work for increasing resolution and reducing reverb time. If the Acoustic Fields Foam is out of the question the 703 panels are worth it. It's a fine line with the 703 until it starts to mess with the sound.

When setting up in an asymmetrical room it seems like a crap shoot. Some people have really good results and others not so good. Some folks recommend setting up in an asymmetrical room.

When I had a symmetrical room I had the best sound stage I've ever experienced. Currently in an asymmetrical room the sound stage shifts with volume level. The sound stage is more expansive on one side than the other. It's also out of body experience good! If only perfection was the goal then there would be no happiness.

The challenge is that there is no perfect room. Everything is a trade off. Even if you have control of 100% of the design, dimensions and treatment it is not going to be perfect. There are trade offs.
Back to top
 
 

Rega P8 | Zephyr MIMC★ | Innuos ZENith MK3 | May KTE DAC | ZP3 25th ZMC1 | ZRock2 25th | EMIA Remote Autoformer | Torii MKIV 25th | Snake River Audio Cables | PAP Quintet 15 1.6 Voxativ Custom XO & SRA cables| Torus AVR15 | Acoustic Treatments
  IP Logged
kulafu
Seasoned Member
****




Posts: 162
Re: Room treatment
Reply #15 - 06/30/22 at 12:37:31
 
GS,
Thanks!  Dennis did mention that these were heavy!  As always, your sound advice is helping me make the right decision.  Acoustic Fields foam/DIY it is!
Bob
Back to top
 
 

Caintuck Lii15 1.5" Padauk/Omega S3HOXRS, UFO25th, CSP3 25th mods, Holo May KTE , HQPlayer/USB/Ultrarendu/EtherRegen, Roon, Qobuz, Tidal and Spotify(various ICs and Power Cables)
Altec 601s, CSP3 25th Mods, Torii Jr, PI2AES or IFI Zen Stream, Pontus II
  IP Logged
Same Old DD
Seasoned Member
****




Posts: 195
Re: Room treatment
Reply #16 - 06/30/22 at 13:21:39
 
Groovy, I'm still working on things.
You know how we all try to describe that air between instruments and how we actually listen to the "quiet" as much as the sound. The quiet was beginning to feel wrong.
Too much fluff was like that feeling you get when you're on an airplane and you can still hear fine, you think, but then you swallow and things open up.
It sounded like I needed to swallow.

Even in small rooms, I believe there still needs to be a degree of ambience. The speakers can't do it all. My mind felt like my ears were lying to me when I had too much fluff in there.
Back to top
 
 

SE84Cs Mono'ed, McIntosh MC2500, Yamaha Pre, Dual TT, Ortofon, JBL2235x4 modded for OB, Visaton B200 OB, Kleenline Power, Revox & Sony R-R
  IP Logged
jec3504
Seasoned Member
****


I'm on the live and
learn program.

Posts: 282
Re: Room treatment
Reply #17 - 06/30/22 at 16:32:48
 
Quote:
Even in small rooms, I believe there still needs to be a degree of ambience.


Good point DD, great discussion.

Thanks all
Back to top
 
 

Waiting for ZRock2-25th
Pi4 Bifrost2 Freya+
2 Aegir ,Torii MK 5-25th
RP600M F-15 W-15
  IP Logged
Pages: 1
Send Topic Print