Another two weeks to wait for me, what I ordered didn't arrive on the incoming shipment.

Gives me time to break in another Purple fuse in my SACD transport, in my headphone system in my CSP2+ with the Anniversary mods, and in my CSP3 with the Anniversary Mods in the audio/visual system.  The "3 for 2" sale was too hard to resist, it's going on through this month.

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Ditto, John!

I too hope to finally end my old exceedingly expensive obsession in ancient tubes with a dead end for a bright future in Cryotone. At some point, I want to sell off nearly all of the remainder of the great, ridiculously expensive old stock stuff from the 30's, 40's, and 50's and never look back. You spend $180 on a known beloved antique tube only to watch it die in a year. Those days and that kind of rick needs to be over with. Up to this point, it was the only acceptable alternative in the small tube market....now we have a better alternative and apparently a much longer life with these Wathen tubes.....with high quality right to the end of the tube life, as opposed to decreasing SQ over time and always having to experience that "something missing" as time goes by....this alone is a big deal to me.

I've been following the thread on the development of the 300B amp and Steve made a comment regarding tubes that struck a chord with me (I really did not want to use that pun but there it is):

Not a direct quote...You can get fabulous sound with a pair of $200.00 300B tubes but the ultimate sound with a pair of WE $1,500.00 tubes.

Based on my experience with the Wathen EL84-WC that's the exact comparison that I would make with difference that EL84-WC make to the UFO25: You can get fabulous sound with a pair of $52.00 6P15P-EV tubes but the ultimate sound with a pair of $216.00 EL84-WC.

In other words, the Wathen EL84-WC are to the UFO25 what the WE 300B are to the 300B amp.  In that case the EL-84-WC are a screaming deal.

I have been using the Cryotone ECC88-WC input tubes in the 300B amp and comparing to the original 6N6P which should be the far superior tube and usually is, but the Cryotone has better resolution.

BTW,  I sent Don my personal UFO25 amplifier so he can use it to fine tune his process on the 6P15P output tubes.  

Steve

Ok, I can confirm that Cryotone 6SN7 tubes are the best 6SN7’s I’ve ever used, and I’ve used all kinds of NOS and current production 6SN7’s going back through the mid 1990’s.  These Wathen tubes are the perfect compliment to the Western Electric 300B’s.  

It’s a great day to be an American audiophile!!!

Lon,

Looking forward to your impressions of the Cryotone 6SN7. All in goodtime sir.

Thank you


Doug,

That's good news to hear. Glad you like them.

Lon said:

I also recently have been enthralled with an unlikely pair of input tubes that I got the converter bases for recently: Amperex pinched waist 7062. These almost seem at this point like a fusion of the two 6SN7...

Previously you mentioned how much you like the Amerex 7062 in the ZRock.  Where exactly are you placing it in the reference above?

Cryotone 300B-WC tubes are now available from Wathen Audiophile.  I would love to try a pair and compare them to my Western Electric 300B’s, but that is not financially feasible currently.

The Cryotone 300B-WC tubes run $966 for a perfectly matched pair.  

Steve, has Don sent a pair of these to you?  I’m sure that all those folks interested in your 300B amp will also be extremely interested in your take on the Cryotone 300B-WC tubes.  Can we count on your judgement any time soon?

Seems they are JJ 300Bs at nearly three times the price. I am not sure if these are hanging filaments or not. . . but they don't seem to be.

Yesterday I received the Wathen 12AU7 and the ECC88.  As I've written elsewhere, after 4 hours I found the sound to be aggressive and edgy.  Much more than my stock CSP3 tubes and a 1960's Mazda 12AU7 in the ZR2.

For those of you who speak so glowingly about the Wathen tubes, how many hours of break in should I give them before reaching a conclusion?  At how many hours do you feel they reached their normal Wathen house sound?

I so want to hear what you guys have described.  But so far, no dice.

And can I break them in just by leaving the units on?  Or must music be playing?

Thanks

Mine took 2 weeks to ship and their communication about the process was not up to modern day standards in that they initially stated they would ship within 5 days yet gave no updates regarding the delay.

I did eventually email them and they apologized and said they would ship later in the week, and they did indeed ship.

I have a call into Wathen regarding their thoughts on break in time.  Awaiting a call back.

We've seen this movie before.  Small boutique company has unexpected exposure resulting in 10 times more orders than normal leading to delays.  Soon Wathen will have a 3 year waitlist as well...

Ghostship: Well, in my admittedly limited tube experience, a new tube has sounded good from the beginning and gotten better as it broke in.  This is the first time I had a tube sound off-putting from the starting gun.  This is contrasted by a number of posts in this thread saying the Wathen tubes sound great after a few hours.  Following your logic, it would be possible for a tube to sound good at first and then sour as it broke in.  If breaking in is indeed real, then there ought be no guarantee that time will be kind.

But I shall give it more time and see.  The break in process will have to move the needle quite a ways to enter my green zone, but perhaps it will.

Sorry, but I am not seeing 'Dancing' being that argumentative.  Just stating his experience and asking for input.

I personally have had tubes sound great right off the bat and some sound edgy.  I wait to pass judgement on both.  How many hours?  I always lose track.  But I have had some "now those really sound good" moments.

I'll weigh in on this brand once I get the input tube I ordered and get a chance to listen.  

I also trust Lon's ears (I have bought gear from him) and will be interested to hear how his opinion evolves...good or bad.

Ghostship said:


Quote:



Brand-new Psvane cv-181t super bright and every note had an outline around them..... Now is an outstanding tube!

How long to break-in, how many on - off cycles? Dont know for sure but it wasn't over night.

jec3504 - thanks, I shall!

I encouraged Don to post in the forum. He knows a ton about tubes.  He wasn’t sure if it was kosher for him to post.  I said please do, that way at least one of us will know what he’s talking about  

He said Pixar was only getting 6 months out of their previous tubes under heavy usage.  Now they get 3 years out of CryoTone.  Also that his cryogenic treatment is vastly different than the typical cryo treatment.  So different as to not warrant the same name of treatment.

He used to work for Dell, but left 10 years ago to pursue his passion for audio. He designs amps and it was challenging, if not impossible, to acquire consistent tube quality in bulk.  NOS or otherwise.  Even if good sounding tubes were found, that good sound often didn’t last very long. And hence CryoTone was born.

From what I gather CryoTone shifts the needle in the less euphonic, and more transparent direction.  Once I get 100 hours of break-in complete, I’ll tinker with the ZRock’s treble attenuation and see where that goes.  I’m very much the euphonic type, and only trust transparency to a certain extent.  Hear that transparency, I’ve got my eye on you!!!

Aloha Brad!  I offer you the secret communist handshake, good to see you comrade. Your undercover work with the fascist is inspiring.



I bought a YBA integrated, Meadowlark Audio speakers, Ah! Tjeob CD 4000 with DH Labs cables in 1999.  Had that for about 17 years while not yet contracting the audiophile virus.  Never once thought of upgrading anything, didn’t know that’s something people did in the ways audiophiles do.

In 2016 I wanted to understand more about what a DAC is.  Google led me to Computer Audiophile.  Within 6 months I had subscribed to Stereophile and TAS and the upgrade madness had begun, Sonus Faber, Hegel, Border Patrol, Decware, Magnepan, Duelund and PS Audio.

My time with the DirectStream Junior led me into a world in which its designer, Ted Smith, feverishly pursued low noise in the pursuit of transparency.  With each of his updates, noise was lowered, transparency improved, and another swath of my long time favorite CDs became unlistenable as their flaws became more apparent.  Yes, Norah Jones DSDs sounded incredible, but at a great library price.

I discussed this with Ted and he said that his goal was transparency and that he experienced the same thing as me, but that it was a necessary sacrifice to achieve ultimate resolution. He said it is was not possible to design a DAC that played both A+ and B grade recordings well. It was one or the other.

Eventually yet another DirectStream update came and I had had enough.  A degree of transparency was welcomed, but going too far down that road did not meet my sonic goals.  I tired of listening to the same A+ recordings over and over.  I missed the common folks.

Sold the DirectStream Junior at a profit and bought a Border Patrol R2R DAC. Loved it!  But it did not play DSD, and I have a large DSD collection.  Sold it and bought the Marantz SACD 30n, which is amazing.  Love it’s disc playing ability so much that I bought spindles of Taiyo Yuden blank CDs and DVDs and burned all my favorite album files to disc. I spent months doing that.  Now I listen 90% to discs.  10% to streaming via a fabulous IFi Zen Stream w/ Elite power supply.

The Mac Mini with lifetime Roon is no longer used for audio. I’m computer free.

Next came the ZR2 and CSP3.  With stock tubes on the CSP3, and my trusty Mazda NOS on the ZR2, I had achieved for me what is incredible sound.  The Norah Jones SACDs sounded incredible, yet all my favorite non A+ recordings sounded extremely good. Night after night I ended each listening session by literally saying out loud, “that was ridiculous, so freaking good.” Recordings that had been banished made a prodigal son like return, and the crowd cheered.

With amazing sound achieved and utter satisfaction acquired, night after night, in typical audiophile fashion, I became curious if something better is out there.  And heck, $222 for a couple CryoTone seemed a bargain, especially with the glowing reviews here.

That first night, with only 4 hours break-in, gave me DirectStream flashbacks.  The transparency I had fled from was back!  The villagers shrieked and ran back to their huts.

Don has convinced me to give it 200 hours. I’m running the rig 16 hours per day, on a strict schedule.  I’m at 20 hours so far.  He suggested I peak in at 100.

We shall see where the CryoTone end up. If the initial edge, or as Lon says “live wire”, dials back enough, or if the ZR2 can help compensate, it might work for me.

Stay tuned!

piezoman,

You looking at any Cryotone power tubes for your Torii? Unless you changed your order to the 300B. If so never mind.

DancingSea, that made me laugh. Good job at remembering them.
Life of Brian reference always welcome.

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"Uncle Kevvy" is a craven salesman first bullshitter type, but he's right on the technicalities.

The really cool thing about the Cryotones is that they hold their sweet spot from fairly early on -- all the way to the end which is several orders of magnitude vs. the antique stuff which start farting out and go downhill from there iteratively, well before that.

Oh and no sweat, that was a funny joke, LOL

Update on the Western Electric-Cryotone combination:

I had a great experience yesterday evening with my system.  The CSP3 has standard Decware issued stock tubes that have approximately 20 hours use.  The Cary 300SEI has a Cryotone 6SN7 in the input position, two Cryotone 6SN7’s in the driver positions, and a pair of Western Electric 300B output tubes.  The Cryotones now have 33 hours of play time, and the WE300B’s have around 135 hours of music play time.

Ten years ago I had a system anchored by big 2a3 monoblocks and huge Lowther based horns.  On certain bluegrass recordings it was fairly easy to talk one’s self into believing that there was a live band in the room. From the day that system left our home I have not experienced that level of musical deception……..until last night.

It should be noted that my Lowther based system, on the vast majority of music, caused my ears to bleed. Talk about a tipped up high end…….throw a pair of 5 inch Lowthers on massive Azzura horns and point them at your listening chair!

Last night, just before bed time, I went to the listening room to turn off the system which had been playing music all day.  Instead, I decided to sit down to listen to the first movement of a Hadyn string quartet played by the Buchberger Quartet.  I was instantly caught up in the performance, and I didn’t go to bed—I listened to all three complete quartets on this CD.  And for the first time in ten years I was able to drift off into a dream world of a live performance in my listening room.  It sounded so real.  

What caused this new level of system performance?  Several huge changes have come to my system during the past 12 months, and each change has resulted in sound quality improvement, but the change I heard last night was out of this world.  I believe that the only explanation is the new Western Electric and Cryotone tubes and the way they play together.  It was an incredible experience.  The most intriguing part of this situation is the fact that these 5 tubes are brand new and barely used.  I am pumped!

DancingSea,

I read your initial experience with the Cryotubes that you have received.  Perhaps I missed this... What amp do you have?  If it's a Decware amp what tubes are in it?  What rectifier is in the CSP3?  Is your CSP3 the Anniversary version or has it been updated to an Anniversary version?

 
Quote:


Cryotone and Decware are affiliates.  Just like Caintuck & Lii Audio so Don and Roger are more than welcome to post here.  : )

Steve

Doug,

Thank you for your opinion. I'm still not seeing Steve's statement that Wathen is using a specific brand of tubes. I'll admit to a lack of careful reading, but I have not found the information. Fwiw, though I trust Brent and Andy implicitly, I do not buy exclusively thru them, but they are top notch resources. There are very reputable sellers of these tubes at much lower prices. I'm willing to take a chance on them with the information gained by discussions with Brent and Andy and initially buying from them. Those two have sold me many tubes which are still actively being used... it's my back stock found thru other vendors.

One thing I particularly like about A & B, is they will encourage buying ugly stock or stock from a more recent vintage (60s instead of 40s or 50s), noting it sounds identical or so near to it that only perfect circumstances would reveal the micro differences. If I choose the more expensive, they're willing to sell. But when I buy the less expensive, I've found out they're right; the difference between the pretty tele or amperex and the ugly/60s tube is inconsequential.

This is just my preference, so please do not take this as a suggestion or instruction. I'll trust recommended nos stuff from Andy and Brent before investing in JJ tubes, until those tubes have a substantial time of being long lasting and high sound quality. Fortunately for me, I have a large stock of everything the Torii mkiv uses, and they were way more affordable.

If you haven't tried the nos SED 5u4g rectifiers, I highly encourage doing so. They're affordable and rectifiers, by function, last a long time...exceptions are notable, i.e. Sophia Electric, I found to be fragile.

Hey, thanks for the discussion. Good stuff

"But then there's tubes that I like in my system, in my environment that others do not."

Joman, well said. Apparently, me too.

I'm not sure what you're referring to about inferring that something is overpriced and the corollary about seller's intentions.

Overpriced is relative to established norms for a particular level of quality. To say cryotone is established compared to 60-80 year old tubes is a stretch. That said, if someone thinks they're awesome then say it and why. That goes for both cryotone and nos.

As for intentions of sellers, did I imply that Wathen is not above board? Please help me understand how I did this. Not my intention, but ignorance isn't a defense, which is why I'm asking. The one thing I can point to within Decware forums is the overall professionalism of the contributors.

Thanks for sharing

I really don't want to start a debate and that is not my intent and after this I will not comment.

I have noticed that lately, in posts about cryogenic treatment, besides the word "overpriced", I believe the term "snake oil" has also been used in other posts and there is a connection between these posts.

Most dictionaries define "overpriced" as -it costs much more than it should, -too expensive, costs more than its worth.

Among the list of synonyms for "overpriced" the phrase "rip off" is included.

With respect to "snake oil" the notation is made that it is used "to describe deceptive marketing, fraud, scam".

Another term that has been used recently in posts is "used car salesman".  That term is synonymous with "sleazy, pushy, crooked sales".

Now whether or not the above is what we intend to convey when using these terms or words is not the point.  The point is that many will take it that way because even if they're unfamiliar with the dictionary definition they are familiar with the negative stereotype.

If we are going to post, myself included, we need to keep that in mind.  It's not hard to slip from time to time.  Sure, we may feel very strongly about something and try to express our sentiments with a degree of force, however remember, too much seasoning can make a meal distasteful.

What I have said applies to me as much as anyone else.