Yes.  I can’t tell you the exact angle but they are pointing at my head.  I started out with them flat but increased it bit by bit until I got what I think is an optimal mix of soundstage depth and width.

It's going to be hard to get anything done.  My whole LP collection will have to be gone through now.

I know it's early but as far as bass is concerned, I think my HR1s may dig deeper.  I still need to play some of my deep bass pieces.  The F15 bass is very tight though while the HR1 can sound a bit flabby at its deepest.  This is with the ZR2 for both.  Without the ZR2 I would rate these bass shy.

I haven't said anything about the mids or highs since they sound completely great.  Hell, it ALL sounds great!  

Steve, have you done any measuring/comparing, instrumentally or subjectively?

Awesome Archie! Welcome to the open baffle gang. There is nothing like it.
Don’t be too quick to judge. I’ll bet that after about 50 hours of break in, you’ll really start to hear a difference. Like Pal and Donnie said, get them out from the wall behind at least 24”.  My Lil’ Betsy’s are toed in just shy of pointing straight at my head.

Got them glued up today. Cutting the top and bottom to size so I can do the dreaded arcs. While I could put this through the band saw and spend and hour with a sander, I know I wouldn't get it straight and since it wouldn't actually save any time, it would just be a lot less traumatic with the risk of blowing out the side and the mess gone.

Steve

Here's baffle number one...  Will cut number two when I get more time.

These things are tiny... they are not Big Bestys that's for sure.  Even with a ZROCK2 I do not expect these baffles combined with the Crystal 10 to have anywhere near the bass performance and extension, which is frankly kind of sad... but I have to keep my eye on the ball here... Anything larger than this baffle is going to look stupid because the 10 inch driver will get lost, and since the driver is a much lower Q, a baffle even larger than the Big Betsy would actually be the only hope of getting a similar percieved bass output.

As I build these and sort of remote view what they are going to sound like, I predict the Original Betsy Baffle with the 8 inch Alnico driver will sound like it has more bass. With a ZROCK2 the scale may be able to be tipped to slightly outperform it, which would be expected in a bigger package like this. The big thing it will bring to the table is that the efficiency will be the same as the Big Betsy with the F15! This is game changing when you have a low powered triode amp.

Bottom line is simple; as long as it sounds warm and full I don't really care where the bass rolls off. I'm sure it will be pretty high in this baffle that somehow in real life has shrunk drastically compared to the stupid drawing I made of all the different size choices. I now know that the size I wanted would actually be 4 inches shorter than the current Big Betsy Baffle, so 38 instead of 42 inches.

This is the part where following the Audio Gods gets a little squirmy.. like when you don't think it's going to work. I got a smaller baffle than I thought I wanted, and if I built the slightly bigger one that is 38 inches high, that too would be a disappointment sonically when compared to Big Betsy with the F15. So I predict that this baffle paired with the Crystal 10 will be an attempt to do what the Alnico Betsy Baffle from Caintuck audio does but with 6db or more efficiency. I also predict that if these drivers are as good as I hope I will install them into the Big Betsy Baffles with a black adapter ring at which point I will probably be damn happy I didn't built the 38" high models.

I have received some recommended box plans for the driver which I am sure would sound great, but they aren't going to be open baffles and since the midrange on these drivers is suppose to be the holy grail, I don't wan't alter it in any way with a box... at least not at first. Paired with a 2 watt amp I need not worry about over driving them at low frequencies, so a ZROCK2 should very well.  

Another application would be to pair these 34.75 inch baffles up with my Imperial SO horns which I occasionally use with the ZOB/FRX2 combo.

I suppose looking into the future the final analysis will be between the Big Betsy with the F15 and the Big Betsy withe Crystal 10 / ZROCK2 combo.  Both drivers have similar moving mass but the Crystal has a lower fs meaning a looser suspension for a more natural sound.  This suggests that while it may sound better than the F15/Big Betsy combo, it is never going to have the same slam because the suspension won't be as tight...

Kind of like the game of chess isn't it.

Steve

Well, the bass has really come in on these drivers.  Before it was polite and detailed, now add full and deep.  Part of that has to do with moving the baffles and positioning them properly on the floor.  But it probably has more to do with the drivers just getting some hours on them.

The low boys are too low.  The image is above them, but lower than I like.  The final baffles will need to have the driver positioned higher.  I’ll follow the Randy recipe as closely as I can.  I may need to scale it down a little.  I was looking at 42” high and I think that will just be too overwhelming for my small room.

Unfortunately, its going to be several weeks before I can start to build.  I may try to build some quick and dirty risers to place them on until I get time.

You know, if I had to do it all over again and were just getting into audiophile sound, I would buy a Zen UFO and a set of these drivers in Randy’s baffles.   That is the price to performance ratio that beats anything I have heard (or built).

If I had a little more money, I’d get a Zbit or Zrock, some Zen Styx, Silver ICs and call it a day.  If I had a couple grand more, I’d get a 25th.

Also, a health warning.  Like its easy to drive a well-made car too fast and not realize it, you can drive these speakers too loud.  Last night, I was inching up the volume and I took out my phone and measured on an ap and I was at 94db.

They can get loud for sure.  I find they have less of a "bloom" than my HR1s and sound satisfying at a wider range of loudness but cranking them and being totally immersed is quite seductive.

I listened to some King Crimson last night and either the re-pressing isn't very well mixed or these just over accentuated the bass.  It got me thinking about isolation under them.  I'll give it a try.  My big wood floors like to get in the game when they shouldn't!

I also wondered what would happen if the driver was also offset 3/5 to one side of the baffle to further break up unwanted resonance.  This might be simulated by bracing the back of the baffle to one side.  I have a test record with a 20Hz to 20KHz frequency sweep on it.  If I put my ear on the baffle during the sweep I can hear 2 or 3 distinct resonances.  I have no idea if/how these affect the sound.

We need someone to build a pair of these baffles out of 3/4" plywood.  If they still work then that might help alleviate the shipping/weight issue around producing the Big Betsy for general sales.  Although, they are still huge.

I think somebody goes the the hospital after trying to move it

I guess I remember it wrong.  I thought they were double walled beasts that felt heavy at the last fest.  But hey, if somebody could pull it off, I'd sure like to listen to them.

And a close up showing some of the springs.  The springs act as a vibration filter and mostly only allow frequencies through near the fundamental frequency of the platform with the speaker on it.  In this case it's a couple of Herz.

Ooops! Jumped the gun.  I see your latest photo now.

Hey Arch,

How are your supports attached to the baffle?  Glued?

Looks great.  Thanks

Archie,
It sounds like you are getting some great sound!

A way to resize pictures is to do it before posting. You can do this in an image editor. I use the one called IrfanView, but there are others.  I got mine from Tucows http://www.tucows.com/preview/194967/IrfanView?q=IrfanView

Brian

I have a few more impressions as break-in progresses.

The "Big Betsy's" have a very linear sound with gain.  I had mentioned in another post that they don't seem to have the bloom of my HR1s and that's a good thing.  To use Steve's word (but maybe not his meaning), the sound is much more holographic, containing all the information across the entire volume spectrum.  Low level listening is completely satisfying since higher volume isn't needed to add density or weight to the music.

I don't have "holographic" soundstaging as far as I can tell, yet with these, the performers and instruments seem full sized.  The imaging is different too in that as I walk toward the speakers I seem to get closer to the performance.  From my sitting position I feel like I'm on the stage but last night, I was listening to Bruce Springsteen's "The Ghost of Tom Joad" and as I walked toward the speakers I seemed to come face to face with Bruce.

These have done well with every genre I've played but violin and piano are especially good - and real.  I can't say exactly how these are doing technically with the various frequencies, etc. (I think very well) but I'm so wrapped up in the music that I don't seem to care.

I reread Steve's posts of his Big Betsy impressions and I'd say that mine concur with his.  One thing I didn't see clearly was what extent if Steve uses the ZR2.  He talked about probably needing it for his Crystal-10 project.  I still find my version of the Big Betsy lacking when I bypass my ZR2.  This could all be taste, room, speaker position, etc.


Scott, I guess that's exactly my point.  It sounds so good that I don't worry about specs.  

In the late 50s my dad bought a Fisher 20W mono system and built a single 15" speaker.  I used it in college in the late 70s and early 80s and it was awesome!  I feel great security having big drivers again.  There is just something so right about them.

I feel a tremendous amount of gratitude toward Steve for all he's done but right now mostly for his ZR2 and Big Betsy design (thanks to Randy as well).

Pal, like the picture you posted?  Did you have the F15s on the floor when you had better bass?  

Something unrelated I've been wondering is which tap ought to be better the 4 or 8 Ohm?  I've been running off of the 4 Ohm by default (used for my 4 ohm HR1s).  I typically don't hear a difference between the two but I haven't tried the 8 Ohm with these.  The drivers are rated at 6.56 Ohm if I read the specs right.

I'm not 100% sure what your configuration with and without the better bass is but does more contact with the floor help the bass?

Archie wrote on 07/31/19 at 18:30:24:

I agree. I grew up with a tube system (Dynaco) and full-range 12" EV speakers. Still can hear that wonderful sound in my head.

MINOR SETBACK

I decided the other day that I was getting tired of unhooking my giant router from my table to cut holes in these speakers, so I purchased an inexpensive 1/2 inch plunge router from Menards. That pissed off the Audio Gods who were less than impressed with the laziness. As a result, when making my woofer cutout I flipped the wrong lever and instead of the the plunge router raising back up out of the board, it just dropped straight down through it.  Since I had my spiral bit shown earlier in this tread mounted in the router, it screwed itself at 20,000 RMP straight through the baffle, the plywood under the baffle, and my once perfect work table top. The table top is what really irritated me since it was a glass smooth perfectly flat poured finish without even a single mark on it.

So that's how my lunch hour went. I'll fix it, the wood has knots in it so I'll turn the damn hole into another knot. Remember there is little reward without suffering. Suffering points are hardcore, they always work and never loose their value.

For the same reason we don't show pictures of ourselves with our pants down, there will be no pictures posted of this incident either.

Steve

1) to those experimenting with placement of their OB's on the floor .vs. on top of something.  The OB bible says that your baffle should contact the floor with no space, gaps, etc. between the baffle and floor.  This config. allows the floor to functionally extend the size of the baffle - i.e. mo' bass.

2) I experimented with spikes, etc. on my baffle bases... did not work for me - at all.  Sitting the base directly on the floor was way better.

3) and somebody was talking "isolation" from the floor with a base made with two boards with springs between.  for a cheap, easy and IME very effective solution - anti-fatigue foam mats work spectacularly for this purpose.  You can experiment with thickness (how many mats) or even use them in layers with other materials if you're adventurous and so inclined to go to the trouble and take the time.  This also builds on point 1 above in that the anti-fatigue mat acts as a "gasket" sealing your  baffle base to the floor, as well as providing isolation/dampening.

4) and for the person who was talking about the "image" being too low from a smaller height baffle - tilt them back a bit.  
for my smaller OB's, like Caintucks Betsy's - I built the base so that it tilts the baffle back about 10-15 degrees (depends on distance between baffles and listening position).  Tilting the baffle back to correlate with listening distance will raise the image.

To determine the amount of tilt.  Take a laser and affix it perpendicular to the baffle at the same height as the center of the driver.  Then put something reflective(sheet of white paper) in your listening spot/chair so that its roughly in the same spot your head/ears are when you're listening.  Then tilt the baffle back until the laser hits that spot - this is the angle you need.
I use the laser on my Bosch distance measuring tool (saw Steve using one of these at Zenfest a few years back - knew I had to have one immediately!).
https://www.lowes.com/pd/bosch-blaze-65-ft-indoor-outdoor-laser-distance-measure...
It aids immensely with "precision" speaker setup..!

Maddog, I had about a 1/8" gap between my baffle and floor but with the platforms I put under them this effectively changed.  I'm not sure how isolation can be consistent with #1 even with a mat approach.

Is contact with the floor more of a no gap thing or a transfer of energy thing?  In my case my floor caused a bloating of the bass while the isolation tightened up the bass but didn't lessen it.  In my experience with foam type materials for isolation, they weren't particularly effective by themself (never tried anti-fatigue mat).  The frequency spectrum is too broad.


Today I tried an experiment and clamped thick pieces of wood on the back of the baffles to one side of the drivers.  The thought was to disrupt any side to side symmetry causing resonance.  I didn't hear a difference.

Does it make sense to shape the baffle and place the driver so that there is more baffle below the driver than on the sides?  I'm thinking it would result in a good amount of bass since it'll couple with the floor while avoiding a reduction in the width of the sound stage that I've heard can result from a wide baffle.

I brought the F15 drivers to their knees last night.  I played the Koyaanisqatsi soundtrack and the title piece is super bass heavy with sustained bass notes.  I think they must have been tuned to the driver resonance.  At moderate volume it was fine but maybe a hint of low frequency buzz but at higher volume, the drivers made a frightening sound like they were breaking up.

Can someone explain what the driver resonant frequency, Fs, means in practice?  The F15 Fs spec is 50 Hz.