I thought I would start a general discussion thread about the sound and "feel" of a system that now has 25th Anniversary components installed, whether the SE84UFO-25, the SE84UFO3-25 Monoblocks, the CSP3-25, or soon to be experienced ZMA-25 amps. Or combinations of the amps and the preamp. As the SE84UFO25 ship and with some of those and Monoblocks and preamps already out in the field there's already quite a bit to discuss.

I have the SE84UFO3-25 amplifiers in my system and then added the CSP3-25 to the system. The amplifiers transformed the sound of my system bringing me the speed and dynamics I loved when using the Taboo Mk IV as a speaker amp in my system but also featured the body and richness that the Torii Mk III imparted to the sound when it was my amplifier of choice. And on top of that is mixed in the wonderful "wholesome" sound that the single-ended topology brings to the plate. In the context of my audio journey this could almost be called a "miracle amp" as it brings together all the characteristics I've wanted and enjoyed in amplifiers into one pair of amps. Where before three amplifiers would encompass all these qualities but not one, now there is a pair that give me all that I wanted before.

On top of that I now get from the "small" SV83 tube type all the qualities that I admire in that tube type AND all the other qualities I sought in the EL34/KT66/6V6/6CA7 etc. type. I thought I would miss and yearn for aspects of the bigger tubes. . . but I don't. I just don't. Which surprised me at first, but with the passage of a few months. . . I still just don't.

When the CSP3-25 was added to the system I got more of the same "goodies" of tone and dynamics and even though I have a fantastic preamp in the ZTPRE still in the system, the CSP3-25 brings me a further layer of gain control that allows me to get all I need power-wise from the system for my speakers, giving me just a bit more headroom ensuring I don't run into distortion in the normal range of my audio and video usage. I had considered a pair of higher efficiency speakers but with the omni-directional/directional magic of the HR-1s I realize I don't need new speakers now, which is a relief as I love these speakers. (And as a cherry on top the headphone playback of the CSP3-25 rivals that of the Taboo Mk IV while also using the ZROCK2, and only missing the "Lucid" mode that I do enjoy playing with, but can now do so in a second system with the Taboo Mk IV as the amplifier).

I'm now enjoying the best sound I've ever had, and I can "skin the cat" many ways with different rectifier, regulation, input, driver and output tube combinations, like combining different ingredients to make a distinctive curry. Yes, I spent money this year that I possibly shouldn't have, but I am so glad I did, the enjoyment received is worth it now and will pay further dividends over the years to come.

On top of that my understanding of audio is growing as a by-product of Steve's search and discovery of audio playback. In adjusting and tube-rolling, mode-selecting and cabling and isolation changes and listening I begin to learn more and more about the system and the means to reap the benefits from it. I'm more engaged with the material I play than ever before as a consequence.

I know I for one would love to hear the impressions and experiences and thoughts about the 25th Anniversary experience from others. . . so share 'em if you got 'em.

Thanks Scott.

Thanks for sharing Stefan. Yes, the perception of power (and usable power) of this amplifier design has to be experienced to be believed! Power, and with a coherence top to bottom that I haven't heard before to this extent as well. As well as heirloom quality build. Phenomenal amplifiers and preamplifiers.

John, that's a very interesting and precise synopsis of the SE84UFO-25 in your system. I too have had friends and family listen and watch with my system and I didn't ask for feedback, but they were totally involved with the music or show they were hearing or watching and hearing and that told me a lot about the seductive nature of the "very correct" sound. With the ZROCK2 I can dial in the frequency balance and forget about the hardware and just listen . . . . That's perhaps the biggest "invisible" benefit of the amps.

I haven't felt the need for a subwoofer in my system. (The HR-1 are rated down to 32 so that may be why) . . . But I do understand the desire to "have it all!"

We each have our own unique problems and perceptions. It seems to me that, other than not being able to address the acoustics in my listening space, the SE84UFO25, with the ZROCK2 and the DNA2 speakers ALL of my previous issues with a multitude of years, iterations and dollars spent on HI-FI(music) systems have been solved in a beautiful and most enjoyable way! Simple praises to the Master seem quite inadequate.

Quote:


Let us know what you find. I wish Decware and company offered a definitive solution to this problem short of the Imperials. Maybe I am not connecting the dots.

Juan -- a 20 dollar DAC? The CSP3-25 really does improve sources!

I’ve talked to Steve and Louis.  Louis feels that for the sub to be as fast as the S3HOXRS it needs to be powered, at least with the drivers that he works with.  

I do not want to introduce a powered sub. If a powered sub is the only solution at this time, I will leave things as they are because I am not wanting for any more bass head room.  Interestingly, I have had a number of speakers that were 45HZ+.  Yet none of the previous systems were able to give the bass density, headroom and articulation that I am getting now and that’s from this d**n 4” drivers!!  What I want to try to achieve is to be able to get the base extension that allows one to hear the low organ notes or the full range of a piano.  In fact that is what started this.  I was listening to Cyrus Plays Elvis and I was able to hear some of that lower extension of the piano that prior to the UF025  I could not, at least not in the dynamic manner that it was now evident.  My wife said “I never heard THAT before”. This is the type of bass extension that sort of “rolls out” and fills the space of the venue and is present in my space.  

So, I’ve been spoiled by the UFO25.  When is enough, enough when more could be so much ‘sweater’ now that I know what is achievable?  It’s not that I want to enhance what is now there in any way, in fact I don’t want to spoil it.  The UFO25 is like a drug, addictive, but not hazordous to your health, just your pocket book depending on how far you want to take it.  ;)

This is going to take some time.

Thanks Ellsworth, I have spoken with Louis.  He’s about to release a 10” sub also.  All of Louis’s subs are powered.  I do think that the Omega subs would integrate but I’m not so sure that I would end up with what I want which is low octave extension only.  Very few instruments go below 40HZ, Organ, Piano and Harp are three that come to mind.

Steve’s post regarding his hooking up the UFO25 to the Imperials and the results that he achieved is what got me intrigued and started on this path.  The Imperials won’t fit in my space so I am trying to find a suitable alternative.

Mating to the S3HOXRS makes this even harder as they are so fast and at 45HZ, with the UFO25 and the ZR2 are entering the “realm” of low octiave experience, just enough to tease (you have no idea how many times these speakers have P*&sed me off with the teasing  >:().  The S3HOXRS with the Zen, especially with the UFO25 and ZR2 are an enigma.  There is no way that this combination should be able to do what it is doing if one was to approach this with ‘conventional’ thinking.  But they are!  

So this is going to take some time just for me to make sure that I don’t mess up what I have.  Appreciate the input.

It's great that you've done some tube-rolling and found a new set to enjoy. I still prefer the SV83 and have built around that, though I know I could work with the stock red-tipped and build an interesting set around those as well. But I have about 20 pair of the SV83 so I might as well use those up first!

And I've settled on Amperex as the tube brand and 7308s in the two 25th Anniversary components and 6DJ8s in the ZTPRE and a 12AU7 in the ZROCK2. The family sound is a "real" thing and with the treble cut circuit in the Monoblocks and the ZROCK2 and all the gain riding possibilities in the system I'm getting sound that I just want to keep and "forget about" changing as I revel in the wonderful fields of sound this system lets me hike into. Really really happy with the "25th Anniversary" experience.

Detail is an aspect that I can struggle with not necessarily with my system but with the material I listen to. I have tens of thousands of discs now and I don't buy them for audio quality but for the music. Many sound fantastic. Some sound pretty mediocre. If I build my system around mining the most detail, the latter sound pretty bad, worse than they can if I don't highlight all the detail possible. I also don't and can't have a "treated room" and so other adjustments become my focus. The SV83 is the output tube that works best, there's a touch of forgiving warmth there that the military version doesn't have, and the extra smidgeon of clarity in the military version can be just a bit too much. The 6N11 tube type is too much for me, and I can build a system around the 6N5P type or the Amperex 7308 and similar type. The Amperex have perhaps the best "signature" for my needs allowing the mediocre recordings to be more of what they can be, and still deliver the best possible balance of detail and frequency character. But again everything is a balancing act, with speaker choices, cabling choices, isolation treatments and power treatment all influencing factors.

These 25th Anniversary components will let you hear and feel all that goes before them, in a way that I have never experienced with another amp. You mention the emotional impact--I can see my twenty year plus journey with Decware as an increase in this emotional content as I explored the line over the years. I got into audio seriously as a response to ceasing playing music with others, and wanted to connect with the emotional response I had found while playing music with others. Step by step I'm getting there and I jumped to higher steps with these new components. Rather than detail I find these components greatest revelation to be an empowering cohesiveness that just adds solidity and "correctness" to the sound, the full realization of the "single-ended" sonic nature.

I think that the more that can experience this the better, and I predict that these will strengthen Decware's economic standing. At least that's my hope, and why I have always been a vocal supporter of Decware on the web.

Hey, when I saw how my grandfather's obsession with perfection made him a very unhappy man throughout most of his life (and a mean control freak) I backed away from those qualities in myself, and allowed a bit of chaos to loosen my own grip. But if you are not unhappy the quest for perfection sure can have great results! For a certain portion of my working life I was part of a team that really tried to implement "Total Quality Management." That's an interesting business process and I think in some ways I've been implementing that in my audio pursuits.

The curse of these Decware components we all have in common is that we can hear so much! The good. . . with the bad. And we get drawn into the process of constant evaluation and improvement. . . and it's an ongoing and enveloping process. I keep trying to rest on my laurels. . . and enjoy what I have. These 25th Anniversary products are in some ways making this easier as they sound so damned GREAT!

There is no such thing as perfection!
I work in the "perfection" business. As much as we try to make things perfect, it seems that the only thing that ever happens is that we come up with a better method of measuring our output. They seem to always keep adding more zeros after the decimal point.
After a while you make the realization that all you have to do is make your product or process "good enough".
In this hobby we try to make our copies of performances sound as if they were live, but we haven't yet achieved this level. What we have at this point is something that sounds good enough, but not close to the real thing.
If you were walking down the street and heard a song playing on a piano from inside of a house vs. the very same thing being played from a very good stereo I'm pretty sure that you would immediately know which one was the real thing.
But it sure is fun chasing the dragon isn't it?
 

What is perfection?

Some think in the terms of absolute perfection and not relative or perfection within boundaries.  If you are God then perfection is in terms of absolute.  If you are human then it’s in terms of relative or within boundaries.  The things that we can change not the things that we can’t.

Extreme’s are not good.  One extreme leads to constant disatisfaction the other extreme leads to the acceptance of the lowest common denominator and limits our own potential.  Balance is needed.  Accepting limits is necessary.  

In the case corporations perfection often means perfect greed measured by 0’s at the end of a figure. I worked in that environment and had to leave because the measure became the goal often to their own detriment.  I could not grow personally in that environment.

A table is not perfect I the absolute sense, but it is perfect for what it is designed to do.  So how does all the above apply with respect to what I am trying to achieve with my system or is it all simply academic theory?

Take the piano as reproduced by my system.  Is it perfect - NO.  Can I work to achieve a result that is indistinguishable from the real thing - NO.  But what I am getting now has enough of the key elements that give the illusion of the real thing except for the lower octave.  I know that pursuing the lower octave within limits is achievable.  It’ll take effort and it will not be easy but if achieved even if not perfect in the absolute sense, wow what an end result that would be.  For some what I have is more than good enough and actually it is for me.  But what if???  Those are the words that cause me to try to achieve the next possibility.  If I do not succeed no big deal.  At least I tried and learned.  I do not look at the end result or the figures as success or failure.  To me it’s the journey that counts.

The Monoblocks and the CSP3-25 have to be fully broken in and on the long sweet process of "seasoning" now. I'm enjoying sound that I just have never had before and I feel so fortunate to have this wonderful combination of components to relax into by listening. . . .

I've made one significant change this week: I replaced the Sophia Electric Aqua 274B in the CSP3-25 with an Arcturus globe Type 80 rectifier. (The Sophia Electric Aqua 274Bs in the Monoblocks remain in place). The Arcturus is imparting a further dab of richness to the sound. The Sophia Electric is a wonderful sound too, but for Redbook (the majority of my listening) there's just a bit more of an ease to the sound with the Arcturus. This is the only globe Type 80 that I have but I'll soon have at least one other to play with, so we'll see what a different brand brings to the plate.

Tube-rolling is  . . . welcomed by these components as they show the innate nature of a tube and most sound great. It's hard to choose and "stay put" with a complement, but it's also fun to get a new window into the musical view by rolling.

Edit to add: I also changed out a '44 pair of RCA OD3 regulation tubes for a pair of '40 RCA OD3. Subtle shift but so far a positive one sonically, and this pair is the closest matched as far as light and color when powered on of any pair of regulation tubes I've had in the Monoblocks. I know that doesn't mean anything much but it's a nice visual touch.

More SE84UFO25s should be hitting their owners soon (and I bet their arrival and implementation into systems will feel like a real hit!) Please share impressions if you have them!

After a week of tube-rolling. . . I'm back where I started: Amperex input tubes in both amps and preamps, Western Electric bottle-shaped OD3s, and Sophia Electric Aqua 274B rectifiers. I did receive a pair of Cunningham Type 80 Globe rectifiers and ran them a few days in the SE84UFO3-25 Monoblocks. I like them, a lot, but although they had a smooth warmth I missed the tight dynamics and clarity of the Sophia Electrics. A Sophia Electric was interchanged with an RCA Type 80 globe as the CSP3-25 preamp and that was nice with either pair of rectifiers in the amp but again the Sophia Electric was the best choice, all three rectifiers in place just gave the sound an energy and presence that I have decided works best for me. That surprised me because I thought I would prefer the Type 80 sound. . .and as much as I like it with some material I don't prefer it overall. The Type 80 globes all sound nice in my second system though, so there's that, and I can always put them in the main system as a "different" sound or for well-recorded classical music where they eo have a great synergy.

Every day I spend as much time as I can with the system. . . whether driving speakers or headphones this is a wonderful system, giving me sound quality I only dreamed of having a few decades ago!

Wow! These OD3W tubes are really nice, they impart a slightly warm smoothness that other OD3 I have don't and that I didn't miss til there it is. They fit the other tubes in my complement so well!

This pair works so well that today I found someone selling a full sleeve of five at about 8 dollars each and bought a sleeve. . . I want to be sure to have these for the years to come!

I really am enjoying the system Ace. I am listening to the amps today after a three day weekend with headphones (great headphone sound from the CSP3-25 and the Sennheiser HD-800S but still. . .) I did a bit of isolation component re-arranging (went from four VooDoo Cable Iso-Pods to three under all but my PS Audio P10) and used the resulting six Iso-Pods in place of Aurios under my DVR and UDP-205, and changed some Herbie's Audio Lab "Ultrasonic Fat Dots" to Herbie's 1/2" ebony domes to lift the front of my speakers up a bit. Another layer of clarity and dynamics as a result. I've been tuning around the Raytheon OD3W tubes I have been using lately, I really like the effect they have on the system. I have six pair now, five more on the way, and I'm mailing a pair to Juan as he turned me on to the OD3 tube and I think he will like these. . . .

The Decware 25th Anniversary Modified Experience. . . I'm glad I'm experiencing it!

Glad they got there. Hope you enjoy them.

You're welcome. I generally prefer "bottle-shaped" regulator tubes and rectifier tubes. But these "potato-masher" regulator tubes have a special sound that works well with the other tubes in the complement and can be a good foundation for the amps in my system. I now have five pair of the same date codes, I think I'm good for a while! Mark58 seems to have influenced my hoarding. . .  ;)

Today I am listening to the system and just reveling in the wonderful sound. I ask myself how can this get better. . . and I know it can with the 25th Anniversary Mods of the ZROCK2 and possibly with the ZLC.

I really am eager to hear what the mods will bring to the ZROCK2 and know I have a long wait. I'll hear from others who have their ZROCK2s in for modification instead of having a new one built as I am. I think that will be the icing on the cake for the 25th Anniversary Modified Experience!

As my Monoblocks and CSP3-25 have seasoned and really come into their own I've learned how many amplifiers I have simply by "riding the gain" between the ZBIT, CSP3-25 and the Monoblocks. (I leave my DAC preamp at 100 percent). I can have a rich and dreamy classic tube amp sound signature so to speak, a fast and dynamic and open one, and a world of shades in between. Add tube rolling into this and you have a universe of different potential sounds with the same source and speakers. The 25th Anniversary Modified Experience is not for the faint of hearts! But rewards are truly satisfying.

stone_of_tone wrote on 12/17/18 at 15:08:13:

Larry, this really should be the next Decware t-shirt, right?

Today I spent a few hours with fresh ears on my system and I went through two different rectifier types and one regulation tube type from my "everyday complement" and came back to what I am using every day.

But in the process I found four or five different "amplifiers" especially if you transition between A and B EQ curves in the ZROCK2. Other less flexible amplifiers only give you a limited choice in "signature." The 25th Anniversary Modified Experience is one of exploring these different worlds of sound with different tubes, wires, power settings, toggle switch settings, isolation and damping. . . .

There were times in my life when I wanted a system that was rock steady and had the right combination of sonic elements to let me just sit back and listen through my collection. There were times when I almost achieved that goal as well. But the deeper into the Decware world, and especially after you pass through the 25th Anniversary initiation and achieve enlightenment, you find you can and do have the best of choices: you can find and reach the plateau you wish, and yet you know there's a different terrain you could be exploring, and you can head off on another journey with tube-rolling, toggle switching. . . . One gets to have the routine the musical discipline demands, and yet are able to escape the complacency when the audio wanderlust hits you.

We Decware owners already bond with our components, 25th Anniversary Modified Experiencers may find obsession with the entire system just around the corner. I think these machines are perfect for those among us who are so deep into this "hobby"--they give us a solid foundation  to build our routine around, and yet they are always offering us tantalizing glimpses that tempt us and keep us from complacency.

(The above is written somewhat tongue in cheekily . . . .)

And there are three or four of you now who are ZMA 25th Anniversary Modified Experiencers now. Please weigh in with your experiences! Thanks!

Awesome! Me too, and then that complacency comes in, but I get to take another tour and often end up back where I was.

I'm facing a new journey ahead as well. I've somehow managed to get permission to move my main system upstairs to be an audio only system, and install a second system downstairs that will be more video-centric. I'd like the system downstairs to be ZTPRE and Torii Mk III centered, but the cabinet my wife insists on won't house them. So it's going to be CSP2+ and Taboo Mk IV centered. Lots of work and fun ahead.

Lon...That would make a cool T-Shirt!

Will do, about getting to my ZMA 25th experience/in some more time... .

For the ZMA, Jeff intrigued me this past February with his musing's of offering the ZMA a little more speed. With Steve's discoveries and applying to the ZMA, I'm very pleased/speed & micro serving the macro music! My ZMA is seasoning in nicely.... .

I always knew it was not my Adagio's. I had in Tekton's and owned the DM947 Monoliths (all at the same time/rotating and listening with two other pair as well, mind you). They too, could be; not what I knew from my SE84CS delivering the music. For Steve to achieve the ZMA doing (UFO-25th SE) CS with power...is pretty damn remarkable.

Back to my Speaker's/Acoustic Zen Adagio's. The Tekton's & DM947's could not even come close to what my Adagio's achieve. The choice to have them cross cut at 4500Hz/single capped, instead of the 2500 tested and 3000 they were at....proved to be remarkable. These are fast woofer's and tweeter's.
Now! ...providing the true identity of my ZMA (because of the Mod's) & Steve's great Redbook source/ZDSD!




Mr. Lee's interview:
Tell me about your woofers. How does an underhung driver differ from a well-hung driver?


Underhung means that it has a very short voice coil in a large magnetic field gap. The drivers are top grade and so are the magnets. The voice coils are very narrow and always move in a linear manner within a magnetic field regardless of excursion. Additionally, a traditional long voice coil moving in a short magnetic gap presents a high variable impedance to the amplifier.


Can you break it down in some more detail?


With a short voice coil in a long magnetic gap, as the music signal flows through the voice coil, the coil and the cone moving together produce the sound wave. A long magnetic gap structure offers a much wider linear magnetic flux density, alternately pushing and pulling the short voice coil back and forth. Since the magnetic force on the coil is constant and completely symmetrical with the motion of the piston assembly, the result is a sound wave with extremely low distortion and coloration, allowing it to respond much faster to a transient signal and to stop faster after the drive signal has ceased.


Compare that with the large signal behavior of high-excursion overhung transducers. Because the coil extends beyond the control of the magnetic flux field, it causes very high harmonic and transient distortion that can reach 5 - 20% whereas the underhung driver maxes out at 1%. Because of the very complex magnetic structure and complications involved in voice coil placement and fabrication, the underhung voice coil is difficult and expensive to fabricate.


What are the speaker cones made of?


They use a ceramic-impregnated fabric in the center with ceramic coating on either side to form a sandwich. These drivers are custom built for Acoustic Zen to my specifications. The ceramic coating makes for a strong, dense, rigid surface area that will not break up nor produce a lot of ringing. The cone is very stiff and light and as a result, very fast. It responds immediately to a signal and returns to its original position very quickly. This minimizes frequency overhang, colorations and distortions.


Why a Neodymium magnet?


An underhung driver's voice coil requires an extremely strong magnetic field. If you are using traditional magnets, the size and weight of the motor would be excessive. Neodymium allows us to maximize magnetic coverage while controlling weight and size.


Why did you choose a ribbon tweeter and how does your circular design differ from other approaches?


I don't want to get too technical here. My circular ribbon tweeter design, unlike a traditional dome or cone tweeter, presents a purely resistive impedance that's completely linear in the audio range. It also has an essentially linear phase response, which contributes to an immediate and precise response to any transients in a complicated music signal. This dramatically reduces distortion and coloration.


I am using the thinnest diaphragm possible, a 0.01 millimeter Kapton diaphragm. That's just about weightless, with a 95% covered aluminum circle of conductors across the entire vibrating area positioned between super strong Neodymium magnets. Some people use metal ribbons which can result in very harsh HF response. Kapton is not only extremely light, it is also heat resistant, hence the thermal behavior of the voice coil will not translate into audible distortions. My tweeter's larger circular membrane not only provides much higher power handling and a wider frequency response, it also eliminates the offsets between horizontal and vertical dispersion that are common with narrow ribbons.

Finally got my modified zbit and 25th zrock2, dressed like my 25th amp, look and sound fantastic  :)