Welcome, Guest. Please Login or Register
Decware Audio Forums
01/28/23 at 03:09:34 




Pages: 1
Send Topic Print
Caintuck Betsy Review (Read 19874 times)
Ninja00151
Verified Member
**




Posts: 13
Caintuck Betsy Review
03/07/17 at 01:15:24
 
Hello all! Backstory here, review below. Also, this is a mirror of my review posted on another forum. I thought it might help more people here.  :)


Quite a long time ago, I bought some Wild Burro Audio Betsy drivers. Unfortunately they sat in a corner collecting dust for some time as I couldn't come up with a design that would in theory give "good enough" bass response but still are small enough to not be ridiculous.

About a year ago I started researching heavily into amplifier design, and ended up buying a Decware SE84UFO amplifier. Quite honestly, it's one of my most prized possessions and will never be replaced, but that's a whole different story and a different debate.

I noticed a new speaker on Decware's website- with a particular name- "model Betsy". Steve's website gave credit to Randy over at Caintuck Audio.

Randy has an excellent sister website which imho does an excellent job showing his various DIY efforts, biases, and beliefs. Randy's story really resonated with me- a man who always wanted to open up an business dear to his love and hobbies; selling excellent designs at prices anybody can afford. I've exchanged a few emails with Randy and can indeed say with certainty that he is a man of excellent character (and customer service!) and isn't in the business to make a buck- he truely loves this Hobby.

Luckily for me, Randy not only sells completed speakers in various Ply, Hardwoods, and finishes, but also sells flat pack kits!

__________________________
__________________________



Packaging & Material:

Receiving the $125 flat-pack "enclosure" kit, packaging was the best I've had from any business for any product. Randy creates his own packaging foam to hold the wood in place during shipment, and unless your package fell off a truck down a highway, or someone dropped it from the roof of a building, I'm sure it'll be delivered in perfect condition. Attention to detail to make sure the wood isn't damaged in shipment was beyond excellent.

Wood quality was spectacular. I wasn't expecting much for $125, but the plywood was flawless and cuts were perfect. The baffle face and thick wooden plinth was pre-drilled for an easy install, and the drilled pilot holes were not too large to provide the screws with an extremely tight install. The screws in the front baffle are covered up by wooden "buttons" that are press-fit into pre-countersunk holes for an extremely clean look.

All screws provided were of excellent quality and correct in number. I believe Randy actually provided a few extra screws for the speaker driver just in case someone dropped and lost a few. Call me impressed.


__________________________
__________________________



Audio Review: The Meat and Potatos

Equipment: Schiit Audio Modi Multi-Bit DAC, Decware SE84 UFO SET Amplifier, Caintuck Audio Betsy Flat Pack Kit in 3/4" Baltic Birch Ply w/o binding posts, binding post boxes, or convenience handle (speaker wires directly soldered), w/ Wild Burro Audio Betsy drivers (obviously).

Now first and foremost, let me get something out of the way. We all have our biases and to be honest- I bought these more to support good people and satisfy a curiosity of "open baffle" sound more than anything. Flat out, I have a bias for speakers that measure "flat and smooth" from reading too much Harman research online. The Betsy's published FR isn't exactly the flattest known to man. I was expecting a very good speaker- not excellent, and boy was I wrong.

These "cheap" speakers blew my expectations out of the water. Is it because: it's fullrange, open baffle, paper drivers, driven by a SET? Honestly, I have no idea- but what I do know is that I'm keeping these around.

Looking at the published FR of the Wild Burro Audio's Betsy drivers, I thought these would lean towards sounding bright, thin, and ultimately fatiguing. I also thought that with such a small (open) baffle, bass would be completely lost. I can report that all of these expections are false.

If anything, these speakers in my experience are smooth, full-bodied; fatigue-free, not leaning towards bright nor boomy. What's odd is that everything seems balanced- but not dry nor analytical. It's an incredibly musical speaker that makes you stop "analyzing" the characteristics of the speakers, as you bask and relax to the lovely tunes. It's a speaker that makes you want to crack open some booze, light up a cigar, and unwind. Bass is present enough to not absolutely need a subwoofer, but adding a subwoofer to these speakers would be a match made in heaven if sub-bass is your thing. I feel like the natural bass roll off would allow you to leave the speakers full-range, and not utilize a high-pass filter if you added a subwoofer. Additionally, bass is extremely tight and different from anything else I've experienced- I'm guessing this is the "open baffle" bass experience.

The rest of the frequency range just sounds "right". Again this speaker is incredibly musical. Nowhere can I find fatigue in the presentation. No sibilance, nor does anything sound too emphasized or missing. Honestly this speaker really racks my brain because the drivers on-axis isn't exactly perfect. If I had to guess the rear output of the driver must have just the right frequency response to make the total response at the listening position more even.

Where this speaker also shines is in the soundstage and imaging department. To be quite honest my listening room is far from ideal- so this will only improve. The music "floats" above the speakers and isn't stuck to the loudspeaker drivers. The resulting sound doesn't sound "low" like you think it would be. Center image is exact and strong. The speakers throw a beautiful wide soundstage. Imaging in my room isn't "pin point" precise but I feel like a great balance between precision and width for musicality. The imaging isn't so intense and precise that it distracts you from the overall music, but you can very easily get a sense of where instruments are. One of my favorite test tracks for this is "Kusanagi by Odesza".

Really I can't think of a better way to summerize this than the following. I've listened to many speakers and headphones in my life. Even with very well reviewed items I usually come away with dissappointment, expecting more than the product had to offer. The Caintuck Betsy's are the exact opposite- and honestly I can't really believe how good these are, especially given the price! These aren't just some "budget value" speakers either, they are truly something special. I never thought I would find a speaker under $1,500 that I could honestly say I could be satisfied living with the rest of my life. I could happily live with these the rest of my life. Ofcourse, your results may vary, but I would be shocked by anyone not loving these speakers.

A short little tidbit- these speakers have excellent efficiency. My Decware SE84UFO has a published 2.3W RMS output. At 1/4 (9 O'Clock) on the volume dial I'm already at "loud". Atleast for me in my small room. These speakers just keep surprising.

Build Album: http://imgur.com/a/7AAAF

No affiliation to Decware or Caintuck Audio. Review not paid for, and represents my honest opinions.

http://www.caintuckaudio.com
https://www.decware.com/newsite/Caintuck.html
http://www.wildburroaudio.com/speakers.php
Back to top
 
 
  IP Logged
ProggRob
Seasoned Member
****


CDApS Member

Posts: 239
Re: Caintuck Betsy Review
Reply #1 - 03/07/17 at 05:27:27
 
Very nice ninja, welcome to the club!  I've got a thread going on the Betsy now too, glad to see you're enjoying them.  I agree with everything you said, but adding OB bass is a whooole new ballgame.  Highly recommend!
Back to top
 
 

Baetis Revolution II -> HFC CT-1E Digital Cable -> Denefrips Terminator -> Black Cat Setsuna XLR -> LTA Ultralinear Integrated -> Black Cat Setsuna SC -> Betsy Alnicos
Bass: 4x Hawthorne Augies w/ 2 Rythmik amps
Power: TWL 7+ and Digital, UberBUSS, Furutech Outl
  IP Logged
Randy in Caintuck
Seasoned Member
****


Tube be ... or not
tube be ... it's a
no-brainer.

Posts: 949
Re: Caintuck Betsy Review
Reply #2 - 03/07/17 at 15:38:21
 
Hello Ninja,

My sincere thanks for the kind words .....

It's wonderful to hear that you are enjoying the Betsy baffles.

I have Steve Deckert to thank for inspiring my efforts with his original mission statement ..... " great sound for the sincere but broke music lover" .....

A person does not have to take out a second mortgage on his home to buy a top shelf amplifier and a good sounding pair of speakers.

Best wishes,
Randy
Back to top
 
 

CEC TL5N belt drive CD transport
Cambridge Audio Azur 851N DAC / Streamer
Decware SE84UFO amplifier
Caintuck Audio Betsy Open Baffles
Caintuck Audio Lii Silver-10 Open Baffles
Caintuck Audio Lii 15 Open Bass Baffle
WWW   IP Logged
Palomino
Seasoned Member
****




Posts: 2366
Re: Caintuck Betsy Review
Reply #3 - 03/07/17 at 18:37:54
 
Very nice review and nice build pics.

+1 to what PR said with OB bass.

Also Rob, your comments got me experimenting with various degrees of toe-in and also speaker distance apart.  More seems better in both cases even though now there is very little space between the baffle and the wall.

So Rob, you are CDApS'ing me from a few thousand miles away.

One of the things with my "tall" OB builds is I believe you can "hear" the baffles in that they block the sound.  With Randy's design the baffles get out of the way of the music and the Betsy's, being designed for OB, are able to project a tall soundstage.  This could also be why they sound better further apart.  It gets the baffles out of the way.
Back to top
 
 

i7 Mac Mini with LPSU/SSD running Audirvana 3.5, Uptone Audio Regen on LPSU, Mytek Brooklyn DAC+, Ven Haus DIY Silver ICs, 25th Ann. Zen, PS Audio P5 Power Supply, PS Audio Power Cords, GR Research Speaker Wire, DIY Big Betsy and Crystal 10 Open Baffle Speakers
  IP Logged
Ninja00151
Verified Member
**




Posts: 13
Re: Caintuck Betsy Review
Reply #4 - 03/07/17 at 22:52:46
 
I've also experienced optimal soundstage/imaging with the speakers on axis (directly pointing at head) or crossing in front of face.
Back to top
 
 
  IP Logged
Palomino
Seasoned Member
****




Posts: 2366
Re: Caintuck Betsy Review
Reply #5 - 03/08/17 at 01:39:44
 
Alas, I fear the Augies are no more.  Out of stock on Amazon.
Back to top
 
 

i7 Mac Mini with LPSU/SSD running Audirvana 3.5, Uptone Audio Regen on LPSU, Mytek Brooklyn DAC+, Ven Haus DIY Silver ICs, 25th Ann. Zen, PS Audio P5 Power Supply, PS Audio Power Cords, GR Research Speaker Wire, DIY Big Betsy and Crystal 10 Open Baffle Speakers
  IP Logged
Tripwr1964
Seasoned Member
****




Posts: 435
Re: Caintuck Betsy Review
Reply #6 - 03/08/17 at 13:24:28
 
re
Alas, I fear the Augies are no more.  Out of stock on Amazon.

my 2nd arrived UPS last night, to make my pair (not sure what makes me think i need 2).
but glad i pulled the trigger when i did!  they had 8 left when i ordered mine last sat morning.  someone bought them quick.
Back to top
 
 

CSP3 25yr, CAD 120s MKII, Sunfire Signature600, Sota Star Sapphire, SME309, Hana SL, JC3+, Schiit bifrost multibit, CXC, MG1.6QR w/ ext xo & mye stands, OB Augies. herbies iso, VH audio flavor diy pwr cords, Beden 8402 & Dueland IC's,
  IP Logged
Palomino
Seasoned Member
****




Posts: 2366
Re: Caintuck Betsy Review
Reply #7 - 03/08/17 at 14:15:37
 
I started with one and quickly bought another.  Then quickly bought a Crown Amp for some more juice than my plate amp could provide.  After hearing ProgRob's quad, I have thought about adding two more.  They can really pressurize a room.

I thought about contacting Darrel directly to see what his plans are.  I got to know them a little through email exchanges and they are very nice folks.

Randy, do you know what their plans are?

If the Augie is truly dead, then this may be a replacement:

http://www.pureaudioproject.com/product/15inch-open-baffle-bass-woofers/

I will give them a listen at Axpona this year.  The regular 15a is also a consideration, but Randy suggested the Augie was worth the additional cash and now after hearing both, I agree.


Back to top
 
 

i7 Mac Mini with LPSU/SSD running Audirvana 3.5, Uptone Audio Regen on LPSU, Mytek Brooklyn DAC+, Ven Haus DIY Silver ICs, 25th Ann. Zen, PS Audio P5 Power Supply, PS Audio Power Cords, GR Research Speaker Wire, DIY Big Betsy and Crystal 10 Open Baffle Speakers
  IP Logged
Lonely Raven
Seasoned Member
****


Jack of all Trades,
Master of None

Posts: 3563
Re: Caintuck Betsy Review
Reply #8 - 03/08/17 at 19:02:15
 
Those were some great speakers...I wish I could have afforded to scoop up a pair!

Quote:
my 2nd arrived UPS last night, to make my pair (not sure what makes me think i need 2).


Well, when you have two you have a better chance of getting a more even frequency response at the listening position; plus two being driven at medium usually sounds better than one being driven at max!

If I had the funds, I wouldn't hesitate to have four!  
Back to top
 
 
WWW Lonely Raven   IP Logged
Randy in Caintuck
Seasoned Member
****


Tube be ... or not
tube be ... it's a
no-brainer.

Posts: 949
Re: Caintuck Betsy Review
Reply #9 - 03/08/17 at 19:21:34
 
Hi Palomino,

From my most recent discussion with Darrel, there is no immediate plan to restock the Augie drivers once the current inventory has been depleted. Of course, if the demand is sufficient ..... that might change.


Some time ago, there was some buzz on the Hawthorne forum about a 12" driver ..... both in the SI and Augie driver that would be a compromise between the 10" and 15" versions ..... but it never saw production.

I have been using a couple of the 12" Eminence Alpha drivers in my bass baffles at home and like what I'm hearing.
They don't quite have the weight or go as low as the 15" version, but they are quicker and tighter.

Depending on personal taste, this is another option .....

Best wishes,
Randy
Back to top
 
 

CEC TL5N belt drive CD transport
Cambridge Audio Azur 851N DAC / Streamer
Decware SE84UFO amplifier
Caintuck Audio Betsy Open Baffles
Caintuck Audio Lii Silver-10 Open Baffles
Caintuck Audio Lii 15 Open Bass Baffle
WWW   IP Logged
Palomino
Seasoned Member
****




Posts: 2366
Re: Caintuck Betsy Review
Reply #10 - 03/08/17 at 19:49:22
 
Thanks Randy.  I have taken note in the past of your use of the 12" drivers and that is in the consideration set.  The price is certainly right.

Maybe you could work out a deal with Darrell to be the distributor of the Augie???  OBs are becoming more practical and prevalent based on what I see with your experience, Pure Audio, Spatial, etc. and various forums.

You could promote the option, see what the demand is and determine the practicality of another production run.

I'm don't mean to try to tell you how to run your business Wink.  It's just an idea.   I just hate to see such a great driver go extinct.
Back to top
 
 

i7 Mac Mini with LPSU/SSD running Audirvana 3.5, Uptone Audio Regen on LPSU, Mytek Brooklyn DAC+, Ven Haus DIY Silver ICs, 25th Ann. Zen, PS Audio P5 Power Supply, PS Audio Power Cords, GR Research Speaker Wire, DIY Big Betsy and Crystal 10 Open Baffle Speakers
  IP Logged
Lonely Raven
Seasoned Member
****


Jack of all Trades,
Master of None

Posts: 3563
Re: Caintuck Betsy Review
Reply #11 - 03/08/17 at 20:02:54
 

Now Tom, how many times has he said, it's not a business, it's a hobby!
Back to top
 
 
WWW Lonely Raven   IP Logged
Donnie
Global Moderator
*****


Why does it hurt
when I pee?

Posts: 2127
Re: Caintuck Betsy Review
Reply #12 - 03/08/17 at 23:07:47
 
I'm betting that if someone had the complete spec's for the Augies a contract driver manufacturer would be able to reproduce them. I once noticed that Eminence's website said that they did that very same service.
Making things isn't that big of a deal if you have the knowhow and equipment sitting around.
Back to top
 
 

Owner of the infamous RED TORII and Dan the Redheaded Amp
  IP Logged
Palomino
Seasoned Member
****




Posts: 2366
Re: Caintuck Betsy Review
Reply #13 - 03/08/17 at 23:32:57
 
They are indeed made by eminence.  So is the pure audio
Project neo version.  It's just the risk involved in funding the minimum production run while not knowing the ultimate evel of demand.  I
would guess Darrell has other sure bets to allocate his capital
to.

Back to top
 
 

i7 Mac Mini with LPSU/SSD running Audirvana 3.5, Uptone Audio Regen on LPSU, Mytek Brooklyn DAC+, Ven Haus DIY Silver ICs, 25th Ann. Zen, PS Audio P5 Power Supply, PS Audio Power Cords, GR Research Speaker Wire, DIY Big Betsy and Crystal 10 Open Baffle Speakers
  IP Logged
Donnie
Global Moderator
*****


Why does it hurt
when I pee?

Posts: 2127
Re: Caintuck Betsy Review
Reply #14 - 03/08/17 at 23:40:38
 
I have a extra $23 rattling around in my wallet. Do you think that would finance a run of 20?
But then again I need more Sonotube....
Back to top
 
 

Owner of the infamous RED TORII and Dan the Redheaded Amp
  IP Logged
Randy in Caintuck
Seasoned Member
****


Tube be ... or not
tube be ... it's a
no-brainer.

Posts: 949
Re: Caintuck Betsy Review
Reply #15 - 03/09/17 at 00:34:25
 
Quote:
Now Tom, how many times has he said, it's not a business, it's a hobby!


This is true .....
Back to top
 
 

CEC TL5N belt drive CD transport
Cambridge Audio Azur 851N DAC / Streamer
Decware SE84UFO amplifier
Caintuck Audio Betsy Open Baffles
Caintuck Audio Lii Silver-10 Open Baffles
Caintuck Audio Lii 15 Open Bass Baffle
WWW   IP Logged
maddog07
Seasoned Member
****


seeker of truth

Posts: 575
Re: Caintuck Betsy Review
Reply #16 - 03/10/17 at 16:43:17
 
I have four of the Hawthorne 15" Augie's...and I will never part with them.  OB bass is "da bomb".  All 4 Augie's are installed in my custom Hawthorne Trio's.  However, I not only utilize them in the Trio baffles which have Audio Nirvana full rangers in them, but I also use just the Augie's from the Trio's as bass augmentation for "all" low bass duties these days, with all my various speakers.  To include my custom Betsy Baffles (yes Randy is an audiophile extraordinaire), a pair of Decware 945's, some powered monitors and I've even used the Augie's mated up to my Martin Logan Vista's.  

I assure you that the 4 Augie's I have, run open baffle, will absolutely light-up and pressurize a nearly 2,400 sq.ft. space with 9 ft. ceilings.  And I'm not talking just "quantity" of bass, I'm talking high quality, natural sounding bass that so-far blends seamlessly with every speaker I've mated them up with to date.

The Betsy Baffles are undeniably the highest value sound in existence.  And even if you take $$$ out of the equation, they are extraordinarily excellent sounding speakers.  Agree with everything the original poster said... about being natural, draw you into the music, make you forget the equipment, just make you want to listen to music.  Their imaging is completely detached from the driver/baffle and floats above, behind and to the sides of the speakers... a characteristic I find rather intoxicating.


Welcome to the flea-watt, OB movement... and one of the growing multitude of folks to have been completely "baffled" by the Betsy Baffle..!!!   Smiley

Back to top
 
 

Decware Torii MK3, Wyred4Sound DAC2, Theta Digital Miles, Emotiva XMC-1, Emotiva XPA-5, Aesthetix Calypso, Wyred STP-SE, Martin Logan Vista, Audio Nirvana 12" Alnico's, PS Audio PW P5, Goertz, Kimber, Nordost and DIY wires, PSA pwr cords, Cary SLI-80, DM945's.....
  IP Logged
Bottlehead
Seasoned Member
****




Posts: 437
Re: Caintuck Betsy Review
Reply #17 - 03/11/17 at 05:48:03
 
Hey Maddog,

I'm about to join the fraternity. I ordered a pair of Betsys from Randy to try w/my 10W 300B SET. I plan to use the Augies in my HA Duets for bass. I use a Hsu Research sub amp with a crossover module @105 Hz. REALLY looking forward to this little experiment. It will definitely be the least that I have ever paid for a set of speakers - new or used.

The Other Randy
Back to top
 
 
  IP Logged
Palomino
Seasoned Member
****




Posts: 2366
Re: Caintuck Betsy Review
Reply #18 - 03/11/17 at 14:42:41
 
MD, I also use my Augies for all low freq duty.  I switch out speakers, but the Augies on the Crown fill in the low end for all.  

Currently I have the Tang Bands, the Betsys, my DIY Monoliths and some Silverline monitors (that will only run with the Torii because they are so inefficient).  All I can pair well with the Augies and a tweak of the crossover point.  Currently for both the Betsys and the Tang Bands I run at 88hz.

I will likely buy the Eminence 12A to give those a listen.  No Augies on the market and I am not sure I want to spend $400 on the Pure Audio just yet.  Plus Randy's description has me intrigued Wink
Back to top
 
 

i7 Mac Mini with LPSU/SSD running Audirvana 3.5, Uptone Audio Regen on LPSU, Mytek Brooklyn DAC+, Ven Haus DIY Silver ICs, 25th Ann. Zen, PS Audio P5 Power Supply, PS Audio Power Cords, GR Research Speaker Wire, DIY Big Betsy and Crystal 10 Open Baffle Speakers
  IP Logged
Donnie
Global Moderator
*****


Why does it hurt
when I pee?

Posts: 2127
Re: Caintuck Betsy Review
Reply #19 - 03/11/17 at 15:35:21
 
In looking at Eminence's website I see that all anyone needs to have to order custom drivers is a minimum order of 50 and a tax number.
I'm wondering if there is that big of a market out there for a run of Augies?
Maybe a Augie Betsy combo ?
Back to top
 
 

Owner of the infamous RED TORII and Dan the Redheaded Amp
  IP Logged
Palomino
Seasoned Member
****




Posts: 2366
Re: Caintuck Betsy Review
Reply #20 - 03/11/17 at 15:45:02
 
I sent Darell a note.  Not sure the email still works.
Back to top
 
 

i7 Mac Mini with LPSU/SSD running Audirvana 3.5, Uptone Audio Regen on LPSU, Mytek Brooklyn DAC+, Ven Haus DIY Silver ICs, 25th Ann. Zen, PS Audio P5 Power Supply, PS Audio Power Cords, GR Research Speaker Wire, DIY Big Betsy and Crystal 10 Open Baffle Speakers
  IP Logged
Palomino
Seasoned Member
****




Posts: 2366
Re: Caintuck Betsy Review
Reply #21 - 03/13/17 at 18:40:09
 
I got an email back from Diana.

>We will not be doing any more production runs once our inventory is
>gone however we are working with a group of individuals in Canada who
>wish to carry on the Hawthorne Audio line of drivers and speakers so you should be able to get the drivers you want in the future.
>I'll be adding your name to the data base I'll be providing them as well.
>
>We should have inventory for another month or so. You can always check
>in with me to see if we have the Augies in stock.



She went on to say if anyone is interested in Augies now to contact them directly as there are expenses involved  with selling through Amazon.

hawthorneaudio@aol.com
Back to top
 
 

i7 Mac Mini with LPSU/SSD running Audirvana 3.5, Uptone Audio Regen on LPSU, Mytek Brooklyn DAC+, Ven Haus DIY Silver ICs, 25th Ann. Zen, PS Audio P5 Power Supply, PS Audio Power Cords, GR Research Speaker Wire, DIY Big Betsy and Crystal 10 Open Baffle Speakers
  IP Logged
maddog07
Seasoned Member
****


seeker of truth

Posts: 575
Re: Caintuck Betsy Review
Reply #22 - 03/15/17 at 22:51:05
 
If you already have an Augie (or two) I seriously doubt you need more.  Especially if you have anything close to a normal size listening room.  Recent experiments using only a stereo pair of my four Augie's with my custom Betsy Baffles... reveals a very synergistic match.  You can have too much bass.... If you get too much bottom end bouncing around the room, it can create problems with clarity and give you kind of a "fuzzy" sound in the bass.  I'm not quite sure yet, but I think I may prefer just two Augie's with my Betsy's.....
I may even prefer just two most of the time with all speaker combo's, except for the few times where my temporary objective is max SPL/party mode.
Back to top
 
 

Decware Torii MK3, Wyred4Sound DAC2, Theta Digital Miles, Emotiva XMC-1, Emotiva XPA-5, Aesthetix Calypso, Wyred STP-SE, Martin Logan Vista, Audio Nirvana 12" Alnico's, PS Audio PW P5, Goertz, Kimber, Nordost and DIY wires, PSA pwr cords, Cary SLI-80, DM945's.....
  IP Logged
Palomino
Seasoned Member
****




Posts: 2366
Re: Caintuck Betsy Review
Reply #23 - 03/15/17 at 23:17:08
 
For my 16'6" by 12'6" room two are plenty.  I would like some for my cottage system Betsy based OBs.

I did come across some other 15" drivers in some old Sony floorstanders I found at Goodwill that I am using now that don't sound half bad.
Back to top
 
 

i7 Mac Mini with LPSU/SSD running Audirvana 3.5, Uptone Audio Regen on LPSU, Mytek Brooklyn DAC+, Ven Haus DIY Silver ICs, 25th Ann. Zen, PS Audio P5 Power Supply, PS Audio Power Cords, GR Research Speaker Wire, DIY Big Betsy and Crystal 10 Open Baffle Speakers
  IP Logged
Lonely Raven
Seasoned Member
****


Jack of all Trades,
Master of None

Posts: 3563
Re: Caintuck Betsy Review
Reply #24 - 03/16/17 at 15:37:59
 
Quote:
If you get too much bottom end bouncing around the room, it can create problems with clarity and give you kind of a "fuzzy" sound in the bass.


In upper bass, sure, but not at true subwoofer frequencies.  At subwoofer frequencies, more drivers can help level out the frequency response across a room helping you deal with nulls and peaks. Plus, loafing subwoofers with more horsepower can be more dynamic than fewer subwoofers with lower headroom left over.

Back to top
 
 
WWW Lonely Raven   IP Logged
maddog07
Seasoned Member
****


seeker of truth

Posts: 575
Re: Caintuck Betsy Review
Reply #25 - 03/16/17 at 19:59:51
 
You most certainly can have issues with too much sub-bass in a room.. and the lower the frequency and the smaller the room the more likely you are to have serious mode issues with nulls and peaks.  If you don’t believe me, come on down to KC and I can show you a room where there is a nearly 100% null of bass frequencies when emitted from a 15” Paradigm powered sub where you can observe the cone pumping like it’s about to fly off the surround and you can hear absolutely nothing… worst case of bass mode nulls I’ve ever seen.
Most music has little actual “sub bass” content.  What most people relate to as “bass” is mid bass, where weight, power and warmth are perceived to come from .  e.g. when most people go to a concert, they talk about bass and punch… and if you look at nearly all concert/pro bass bins(sub woofers), EAW, EV, JBL, etc. they rarely have specs below 40hz, even 50hz is more normal.  And depending on measurement method, this is likely stretching it.  One exception to this is DAL subs.  DAL(Tom Danley) holds 17 loudspeaker patents and has developed some extraordinary speakers(full range and subs), one of which was the servo-drive pachyderm 6 that was developed to study the communication of elephants via ultra low frequencies transmitted through “the ground”.  A “home” derivative of the Pachyderm was the Contrabass, which I have heard.  Danley was in Chicago back in those days – DAL is in GA now.  A lot of audio aficionados sware by DAL’s speakers in their home setups.
If you subscribe to the Dr. Hsu philosophy on sub bass (he’s one of the most knowledgeable on the subject I’ve ever met and had the pleasure of talking with on the subject), not only will you use more than one sub, but you will place them in different locations throughout the room, where modes are the worst - both lows/nulls and high/gain in bass frequencies in order to smooth the overall response.  These locations are nearly never where you want to place your main speakers, nor in any configuration approaching a symmetrical setup.  Thus the idea of putting the bass drivers in enclosure/baffles separate from the main speakers so you can put the sub/bass units in optimal locations for a given rooms acoustics.  You can smooth overall bass response with multiple bass units in two or more optimal locations in a given room, to a point, for sure.  However, it has been my experience trying to optimize more than two, is likely to lead to sonic frustration.  And these arrangements will rarely pass WAF muster.  
I have setup speaker configs using two Augie’s in four different rooms/houses so far and found them to be relatively easy to attain good sound with.  I suspect it has at least something to do with their lack of a box and dipole radiation pattern.  Augie’s “are not” “true subwoofers” in the absolute definition of the term, but they are exceptional at “musical bass” in the mid-bass, warmth, power/punch region.  YMWV
Back to top
 
 

Decware Torii MK3, Wyred4Sound DAC2, Theta Digital Miles, Emotiva XMC-1, Emotiva XPA-5, Aesthetix Calypso, Wyred STP-SE, Martin Logan Vista, Audio Nirvana 12" Alnico's, PS Audio PW P5, Goertz, Kimber, Nordost and DIY wires, PSA pwr cords, Cary SLI-80, DM945's.....
  IP Logged
Palomino
Seasoned Member
****




Posts: 2366
Re: Caintuck Betsy Review
Reply #26 - 03/16/17 at 20:13:16
 
My bass null/peak issues completely vanished once I went with Augies.  And I have a small room which had some serious issues.

I can't weigh in on the sub bass argument other than to say that Raven's subs do real sub bass.  You feel it more than you hear it.  They are so large that a small child could sleep in the cone Grin
Back to top
 
 

i7 Mac Mini with LPSU/SSD running Audirvana 3.5, Uptone Audio Regen on LPSU, Mytek Brooklyn DAC+, Ven Haus DIY Silver ICs, 25th Ann. Zen, PS Audio P5 Power Supply, PS Audio Power Cords, GR Research Speaker Wire, DIY Big Betsy and Crystal 10 Open Baffle Speakers
  IP Logged
maddog07
Seasoned Member
****


seeker of truth

Posts: 575
Re: Caintuck Betsy Review
Reply #27 - 03/16/17 at 20:28:25
 
which was one of my points... the OB Augie's do the kind of bass that matters for music very well... and typically easy to attain without a lot of futzing around in the room to get them "to gel".  Ported box subs IME, are the hardest to get blended, sealed box subs notably easier than ported, and the OB Augie's I've had zero problems with.. as long as you get their phase matching the phase of their partnering speakers.

For me, "sub bass" is mostly for HT.. where having the room, walls and floor shook and vibrated by frequencies to low to be audible, only "sensed", is only for movie effects - not music.
Back to top
 
 

Decware Torii MK3, Wyred4Sound DAC2, Theta Digital Miles, Emotiva XMC-1, Emotiva XPA-5, Aesthetix Calypso, Wyred STP-SE, Martin Logan Vista, Audio Nirvana 12" Alnico's, PS Audio PW P5, Goertz, Kimber, Nordost and DIY wires, PSA pwr cords, Cary SLI-80, DM945's.....
  IP Logged
Lonely Raven
Seasoned Member
****


Jack of all Trades,
Master of None

Posts: 3563
Re: Caintuck Betsy Review
Reply #28 - 03/16/17 at 20:51:11
 
For the most part we are saying the same thing, just differing opinions and setup ideals.

I typically crossover at 50hz-65hz. Above that the coherence can get messed up. And there is no lack of information in that range - what Tom said above is true, I do rock infrasonics, but that's in movies. For music, my setup with the MG944 (or now the Omega 8" SuperHemps), sounds amazingly live with the mains delivering that midbass punch, but my "small" sub gives me plenty of detail and body below that 60hz range. Unless I'm listening to folk or accapella, there is lots of information that is typically glazed over and only given lip service by most common speakers.
Back to top
 
 
WWW Lonely Raven   IP Logged
Pages: 1
Send Topic Print