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February CDApS Meeting (Read 87527 times)
Lonely Raven
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Re: February CDApS Meeting
Reply #100 - 03/21/17 at 16:25:15
 

Sounds to me like you've got it.  

As for hearing the room, or hearing yourself *in* the room, that really depends on how the magical mixing engineer did their job, and how your room is setup. Once, when Tom's room was "off", it sounded like you were out in the lobby of a venue listening through opened doors.

So yeah, there is a lot you can do when you move your treatments around - the goal from here is just being pleased with it,and it sounds like you are!  

Pretty good for shuffling around some furniture and room treatments, huh?  Now you get why I'm so fanatical about it. (and why I think it's silly people won't go at least to the extents you have to *see* what the big deal is)
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Palomino
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Re: February CDApS Meeting
Reply #101 - 03/21/17 at 17:29:14
 
I think there are two stages.  Being able to hear the ambient sound and the second stage is feeling you are in the room.   Being enveloped in the sound.  

I think more treatment may be required for second but I have not spent any significant time with ERRs.   That said I do agree with Raven that the mix makes a big difference.  If it's not in the original recording room treatments or speaker types won't do it.

It is interesting how minor changes in the room and/or speaker placement can impact this phenomenon.  When Raven felt the lobby effect it was due to Being around 1.5 feet back from the optimal chair position, maybe even less.  I say keep futzing it you are so inclined.  I use a lot of painters tape to mark seating positions, speaker positions and even diffuser positions so I can always change back if the team isn't an improvement.

I have seen the Ryan Adams out there on Tidal.  I will check it out.
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Lonely Raven
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Re: February CDApS Meeting
Reply #102 - 03/21/17 at 22:11:02
 
Quote:
When Raven felt the lobby effect it was due to Being around 1.5 feet back from the optimal chair position, maybe even less.


Ooh, that's right - I forgot what the issue was. You're memory is clearly better than mine. Must be my old age setting in.  ;)  

Also, agreed on the wrap-around "being in the room" sensation. You do need quite a bit more diffusers...oh, and maybe no desk in the back of the room.  ;)  

Damn, now I want to go back to my room and start moving things around. I need to build this damn projection screen so I can get my room put back together...just so much to do!
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Palomino
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Re: February CDApS Meeting
Reply #103 - 03/21/17 at 22:25:57
 
I just listened to the Ryan Adams disc.  Nice wraparound effect.  Had to turn it up a bit.

My best combo for this is Rachael with Betsys crossed in front of me without the headrest on the Ikea chair (but with my DIY cushion).  I can sense the desk but its still wraparound sound.

I could always use a few more diffusers Wink
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Dave1210
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Re: February CDApS Meeting
Reply #104 - 03/22/17 at 00:57:57
 
I think I am getting a taste of what you guys have been talking about, but I don't think I have "arrived" at the listening venue just yet.  Like you said LR, with a little bit of work, I am in a much better spot than I was before, and it's so much easier and enjoyable to sink into a listening session.  

One of the reasons I picked up the ERRx's was to further explore my understanding of the concepts you guys have described (blind man in a cave is one of my favorites btw).  I know it's really hard to describe what you are hearing with words and you guys are much more eloquent than I.  I appreciate all of the descriptions, music references and I'm sure many others do to.

The journey so far has taught me that the ERR speakers need to be pulled well into the room, and they greatly benefit from treatments.  Treating the front of the room has been transformational, as many of you have suggested.      

I will continue to explore and see if I can "arrive", but I will need more diffusers.  I have been thinking through what I want to do.  The PI diffusers seem like a no brainer for the cost, but I've also been toying around with getting additional GIK, or even Acoustic Field diffusers.  The latter being significantly more costly than the former.   Also, I'm not sure I would want the entire front wall treated with GIK Q7D's (except for the bass traps which need to stay).  That said, it may be better than the mix of absorption and diffusion I have on the front wall now.  

I appreciate the encouragement and patience.  More to come...  
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Randy in Caintuck
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Re: February CDApS Meeting
Reply #105 - 03/22/17 at 04:25:03
 
Very interesting topic and thread .....

Speaking of recordings that have a "wrap around" effect .....

The Cowboy Junkies have an album called "The Nomad Series".
It's actually five CDs in one big multi-disk sleeve.

On the CD named Renmin Park, there is a song named "Cicadas".

The engineers must be doing some crazy phasing trick with the microphones ..... because the sound of the insects is all over the room, including behind my listening seat.

It's almost a little unnerving ..... I keep expecting one of the little buggers to crawl down my shirt collar .....

Randy
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Dave1210
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Re: February CDApS Meeting
Reply #106 - 03/22/17 at 11:44:19
 
Randy,

I'll definitely check that one out.  I have the CD set around here somewhere.  Separately, I'm definitely not looking forward to the next Cicada awakening!  Every 17 years seems like a long time, but time flies when you're having fun!  

I remember listening to the Ryan Adams disc in your store and the first thing you mentioned was the space in the recording.  I don't remember if I felt as if I was there, but sounds like that is another level.  

The listening session in your store was instrumental in a couple different ways:  It made me realize 1) just how powerful (and fast) the Zen amp really was with the right speakers 2) I was missing a lot of depth/spatial information in my current setup 3) listening to great music on a great system is relaxing and fun and 4) you don't have to pay a fortune to have a great system!

Take Care,
Dave


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Palomino
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Re: February CDApS Meeting
Reply #107 - 03/22/17 at 12:40:16
 
Last night I did a combo listening session of Ryan Adams and Cowboy Junkies.  All from Tidal.  Mostly live stuff.  Extremely enjoyable.  I will definitely have to check out those cuts Randy.

Dave, I think I would lean towards the styro over the QRD7.  They are fragile but work pretty well.  Raven put his in a wood frame which helps keep them in one piece.

I also for some reason, I did a count of diffusers in my room last night.   I've never thought about the number.  Just what kind and where to position them.  Well I officially have 20!

Then I added up what I spent to build/buy them and it really wasn't that much.  The most expensive ones I have built were made from Baltic birch at around $100 each.  But the others were $50 or less.   The foam store-bought ones were around $20 I think as an intro offer.   So all together maybe $800  Lots of time building and painting though but that is fun for me.

So I have gone a bit overboard being under the spell of the room treatment Svengali, El Presidente.  But you don't have to go this far. As we saw at Aaron's house a few well placed diffusers can really enhance your experience.

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Lonely Raven
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Re: February CDApS Meeting
Reply #108 - 03/22/17 at 22:17:49
 
Quote:
I could always use a few more diffusers Wink


This is why we're friends.  ;)

Quote:
I am in a much better spot than I was before, and it's so much easier and enjoyable to sink into a listening session


I love this - I've really thought that I've fallen asleep listening, but it's weird because my hearing brain is conscious of what's going on in the room. Normally when I fall asleep, my hearing is one of the first things my brain shuts off. So when I'm really *into* a listening session, I can only liken to to meditation, or as Steve says an Out of Body Experience.  It makes sense now, right?

Quote:
I appreciate the encouragement and patience.  More to come...


Are you kidding, this is great! I love seeing someone else "see the light".  It's going to take a long while, but I feel that someday there will be enough of us that companies will take us seriously and prices on diffusers will come down a bunch.

Quote:
On the CD named Renmin Park, there is a song named "Cicadas".

The engineers must be doing some crazy phasing trick with the microphones ..... because the sound of the insects is all over the room, including behind my listening seat.


That almost sounds like Q-sound processing we were talking about in another thread. There is some processing that's been done on a few albums, that when setup correctly, really does this pseudo-surround sound that is so good it's unnerving.

Quote:
Dave, I think I would lean towards the styro over the QRD7.  They are fragile but work pretty well.  Raven put his in a wood frame which helps keep them in one piece.


I agree - I think the PI Audio ones for example do a lot for the amount of money you put into them. It is a little work to paint them (and frame them if you feel the need to) But if you can mount them on the walls and not bump into them they should be fine!

Quote:
So I have gone a bit overboard being under the spell of the room treatment Svengali, El Presidente.  But you don't have to go this far. As we saw at Aaron's house a few well placed diffusers can really enhance your experience.


Guilty as charged of proselytizing *and* being an enabler, and damn proud of it!  My only regret is how much you've passed me up in how good your room sounds!  I'm just so busy/stressed/exhausted lately, I'm really not making any progress!  Hopefully after Axpona things will settle down enough that I can get serious about my (hopefully) two listening areas/rooms.
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Lonely Raven
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Re: February CDApS Meeting
Reply #109 - 03/22/17 at 22:23:42
 
Quote:
I remember listening to the Ryan Adams disc in your store and the first thing you mentioned was the space in the recording.  I don't remember if I felt as if I was there, but sounds like that is another level.


I think there is also a learning curve to "audiophile listening".  It's not always slap you in the face apparent like cicadas in 360 degree surround. Sometimes you need to really hear something exceptional in order to wrap your head around it.  I've had the pleasure and crash course audio-education from Steve on diffusers all those years ago at his old place, about density from listening to his master tapes, and liquidity from listening to his OTL amp in the past few years!  It makes me wonder what else there is I need to experience in audio to really wrap my head around "listening". Steve's been my enabler  and audio-pusher for going on 20 years now! LOL
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Dave1210
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Re: February CDApS Meeting
Reply #110 - 03/24/17 at 01:10:31
 
If I was still living back east, I would be working with my Dad in his workshop to build a few of these quadratic diffusers.  Now that he is retired, I don't see him building me a bunch of diffusers and having them shipped across the country.

I wonder if I could find a local woodworker willing to build me a couple.  Hmmm...  

Anyway, I had ordering PI diffusers on my list of things to do today, but work got in the way of that.  I plan to check it off the list soon.

A few other live albums you guys might enjoy...all can be streamed from TIDAL.

Chick Corea Trio: Trilogy
Crosby & Nash: Another Stoney Evening
Chick Corea & Bela Fleck: Two (Live)
Al DiMeola: Friday Night in San Francisco
Dick Hyman: From the Age of Swing (Keith Johnson Reference Recording)
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Palomino
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Re: February CDApS Meeting
Reply #111 - 03/24/17 at 01:14:58
 
Thanks Dave.  I will check those out tonight.
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Palomino
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Re: February CDApS Meeting
Reply #112 - 04/01/17 at 19:34:45
 
Here is a playlist of some of my favorite "you are there" music:



I have my Tang Band OBs crossing about two feet in front of my face and the imaging/effect is outstanding.  

Another key is that I have built a custom head cushion for my Ikea listening chair that takes the place of the top cushion that normally blocks sound from the rear of the room.  Very nice.
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Dave1210
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Re: February CDApS Meeting
Reply #113 - 04/01/17 at 22:50:31
 
Pal...thanks for the list of music.  Hopefully I can add much of your playlist on TIDAL.

How important is the rear of the room in your experience?  Can the wrap around effect be achieved with sufficient distance from listening position to the rear wall?
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Palomino
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Re: February CDApS Meeting
Reply #114 - 04/01/17 at 23:14:26
 
I think enough distance is important but it has been awhile since I tested having the chair closer to the rear wall.  I originally positioned my chair according to some formula I read.  Later I moved a little forward to avoid a bad bass spot.  Now with OBs the null is gone but I keep it there for soundstage depth.

So a long answer but I think so.  My rear wall also has fractal diffusers.
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DBC
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Re: February CDApS Meeting
Reply #115 - 04/02/17 at 16:56:46
 
Quote:
I originally positioned my chair according to some formula I read.


Palomino may be referring to the Thirds rule? Example: If your room is 21 feet long place the listening chair at approximately 14 feet (two thirds the distance) from the front wall with approximately 7 feet (one third) behind you to the rear wall. This is approximately how I have my main listening room set up since it's 22 feet long.

This worked well for me in the past when using Subwoofers since the Subs could produce somewhat muddy Bass near the room boundaries in some areas. Now that I'm augmenting the low end with twin Low Frequency Open Baffles There are virtually no low frequency Peaks or Nulls as Palomino states.



My second room is 12" X 12" with 8' ceiling and is untreated except for carpet. Basically I have intentionally set this room up to be my acoustic nightmare scenario for testing the Lo Frequency Open Baffles I've been building. Given the room dimensions I really have little choice but to sit up against the wall which was horrible when attempting to use a sub in this room (very muddy bass).

The Low Frequency OB's however just disappear in this room. Big, Full, Crisp sound throughout without a hint of mud. The best sound I've ever been able to produce in such a small room with no treatments.

DBC
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Dave1210
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Re: February CDApS Meeting
Reply #116 - 04/02/17 at 23:43:18
 
Current room treatment models don't know what to do with a room opening up to an L behind the listening position.  At least from talking to the folks at GIK.

Nothing I have done in the rear of the room, in terms of room treatment, seem to make a noticeable difference.  In addition, I have talked to a few folks who have said that treating the front wall will be transformational (rear wall much less so).  That seems to be my experience so far too.  That said, I do need more treatments to continue my experimentation.  

Bass in the room is my biggest "problem" at the moment.  Bass is great at the listening position, but can be somewhat boomy elsewhere (I'm often not sitting in the sweet spot).  I tried a bunch of different positions with my sub, but didn't love any of them.  I ended up with the sub in the front right corner of the room, but it didn't solve my room issues.  Just better foundation at the sweet spot.  At some point I need to give OB bass a try.  

My listening position is currently 13' from the rear wall and 12' from the front wall.  That said, the speakers are only 5.5' from the listening position.  With my current treatment of the front wall, the ERRx's like to be pulled pretty far into the room.  

I am trying to get as close as possible to the wrap around experience Pal and LR refer to.  
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Lonely Raven
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Re: February CDApS Meeting
Reply #117 - 04/03/17 at 21:31:18
 

Just for grins, try setting up your room to the rule of thirds.

Set the speakers up 1/3 in from the front wall, and setup your listening chair 1/3 in from the back wall. See how that sounds. You'll most likely have to completely re-deploy your sound treatments though as all your reflection points have changed drastically.  You might even find having diffusers directly to your left/right sounds pretty amazing (assuming you have enough space between you and them)

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Dave1210
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Re: February CDApS Meeting
Reply #118 - 04/05/17 at 00:54:07
 
LR...I'm fairly certain that would push my wife over the edge.  She already thinks I have gone off the deep end with the current setup (in our living space).  

The ideal future would be to attain beautiful music with holographic imaging in an aesthetically pleasing, livable space, attainable by everyone, everywhere.  Break the tradeoff, and you have a breakthrough product.  

Physics, is, well, physics!  Could it be done with more sophisticated DSP models?  A room canceling algorithm?
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Lonely Raven
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Re: February CDApS Meeting
Reply #119 - 04/05/17 at 18:59:07
 

Yeah, sorry, I think in terms of dedicated rooms or "what If" experiments.
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Dave1210
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Re: February CDApS Meeting
Reply #120 - 04/05/17 at 21:08:24
 
LR, yeah, sorry, I jumped into an idealized state not possible (assumed) with current technology or, well, physics.
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Dave1210
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Re: February CDApS Meeting
Reply #121 - 04/05/17 at 21:17:51
 
Stepping back into reality...what do you guys think about a portable diffuser matrix that could be rolled in/setup directly behind the listening position?
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Lonely Raven
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Re: February CDApS Meeting
Reply #122 - 04/06/17 at 17:33:58
 

That's what the PI Audio diffusers are perfect for. They are white styro blocks that are CNC "hot wire" cut, and work amazingly well. I put a lightweight poplar box/frame around a pair of mine so I can carry them out and quickly easy setup or hang on a wall.  

I'll have photos of this eventually, but I need to break it down, sand and clear coat the wood, and touch up the damage to the paint and foam from 2 years of being moved around indiscriminately and going on tours to other people's houses.
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Re: February CDApS Meeting
Reply #123 - 04/07/17 at 02:52:39
 
Thanks to this thread, I have made my first foray into room treatment.  I created two 2, 2 by 4 bass traps using FR703 and simply laid them down flat on top of the stereo rack behind my speakers.  Pretty nice improvement for 30 minutes of work and less than $150.  

Due to WAF, I am only going to be able to treat the front of the room using materials that are not going to draw attention to the treatments.

If I can find something that fits under my couch, I may try something to help,the room opening that is immediately to the right of one of my speakers.  Well worth the effort so far.
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Lonely Raven
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Re: February CDApS Meeting
Reply #124 - 04/07/17 at 16:41:39
 

I'm working on sound absorber panels with artwork (photos of tubes) screen printed on the cloth. I'll have some posted for sale eventually, but it will have to wait till after Axpona audio show when I have more time to devote to this.
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Re: February CDApS Meeting
Reply #125 - 04/10/17 at 22:34:22
 
I decided to post the link to the new room I had Dennis build for me.  I finally have a room now that even Raven could live with:

http://www.acousticfields.com/dedicated-music-listening-room/
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Lonely Raven
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Re: February CDApS Meeting
Reply #126 - 04/19/17 at 17:25:05
 
Yeah, I could be happy with that.  :)
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Re: February CDApS Meeting
Reply #127 - 04/19/17 at 20:49:27
 
Quote:I'm working on sound absorber panels with artwork (photos of tubes) screen printed on the cloth. I'll have some posted for sale eventually, but it will have to wait till after Axpona audio show when I have more time to devote to this.

Would love to see these.
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Lonely Raven
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Re: February CDApS Meeting
Reply #128 - 04/20/17 at 16:52:24
 

It's been in the works for ages - I keep thinking they'd make great Xmas gifts and try to have them done by November...then get derailed by personal stuff and next thing I know it's spring...kinda like right now! LOL

I hope to have more on this soon. I've already started setting up my photo booth for the intricate tube photos - unfortunately my box of vintage tubes with pristine logos had an accident, and I lost some of my best photo subjects. I *really* want to do all original photographs for this project.
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Re: February CDApS Meeting
Reply #129 - 04/20/17 at 17:00:09
 
We'll have to try for another CDApS once things fall back into line for you.   Must.  Hear. Modded. Zen.  I'd also like to see the updated Raven's Multimedia lair.

Things are really sounding good for me now.  I have stopped fiddling for a while although I did make new power cords using - supposedly- Rhodium plugs and WE wire.  Big if on the Rhodium, but they look right and sound great.  I made them for the cottage system, but I will be keeping them here.
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Re: February CDApS Meeting
Reply #130 - 04/20/17 at 17:36:19
 
Rhodium plating is what they use on white gold rings to bring back the luster - so I figure it's not much of a stretch to have Rhodium plated pins on plugs. Chinese shops are probably being hired to make them for big industry somewhere, and just churning some out on the side for someone's budget plugs.

According to Paul McG - it's really the cable that makes the big difference, assuming you have solid connections - the cable design is like a water filter at the end of all your pipes.

That said, I had already cut and started making an 8AWG Zen Styx power cord since I need to move my gear about 7' further away from my filtered plug. I'm having trouble finding plugs that can take 8AWG that I can actually afford! I'm almost tempted to just get quality industrial plugs made for high current 120v machines.
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Re: February CDApS Meeting
Reply #131 - 04/20/17 at 18:09:50
 
Yeah, good luck on finding something "audiophile" that will take 8awg.  I have made PCs using the silver coated copper wire, but it was 10awg.

I didn't go looking for Rhodium per se, I just thought I would try some cheap plugs.  I saw the Rhodium on some cheapies and said, what the heck.  The plugs look like they have good surface contact area so that may be helping.

What does it for these cords is the WE wire.  The bass is not as full on my 16g version, but the timbre is great.  I actually made one of them a while ago but pulled it because I thought it was the source of some feedback.  I repurposed the plugs on it to another PC.  But it turned out to not be the source of the feedback so I got the new plugs.  

So I have two cords - one that is 16awg and one is 10awg.  Bass is fuller on the 10awg but not as musical.
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Re: February CDApS Meeting
Reply #132 - 04/20/17 at 21:56:36
 

Even going through your Power Regen?


I think I'll swing by Meijer tonight and see what kind of plugs they have that I can use, that might fit the 8AWG. I don't think I have any 10AWG left even if I wanted to use it.

So much I want to do, just not enough time and funds.  :P
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Re: February CDApS Meeting
Reply #133 - 04/20/17 at 22:03:41
 
Yes, even with the P5 I can hear the difference in power cords.  Mostly tightens or loosens the bass, but being a secret bass-head I appreciate it.

I am going to put in the 10g in a few minutes to see if I experience the same increase in bass intensity but a little loss in focus that I did last time.

Rob heard this 16g cord and felt is was pretty decent.  His cord that day did not have synergy with my system at all.  I think it was a Triode Wire labs.  I know it sounds good on his system.
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i7 Mac Mini with LPSU/SSD running Audirvana 3.5, Uptone Audio Regen on LPSU, Mytek Brooklyn DAC+, Ven Haus DIY Silver ICs, 25th Ann. Zen, PS Audio P5 Power Supply, PS Audio Power Cords, GR Research Speaker Wire, DIY Big Betsy and Crystal 10 Open Baffle Speakers
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Dave1210
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Re: February CDApS Meeting
Reply #134 - 04/22/17 at 01:49:44
 
GIK just added skyline diffusors to their line of products...

http://www.gikacoustics.com/product/gotham-n23-5-inch-quadratic-skyline-diffusor...

These would look pretty cool on the front wall!
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Re: February CDApS Meeting
Reply #135 - 04/22/17 at 04:07:07
 
I was impressed by Gik at axpona last year.  Decent quality, cool styling and fair price.  I think they will be there this year as well.
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i7 Mac Mini with LPSU/SSD running Audirvana 3.5, Uptone Audio Regen on LPSU, Mytek Brooklyn DAC+, Ven Haus DIY Silver ICs, 25th Ann. Zen, PS Audio P5 Power Supply, PS Audio Power Cords, GR Research Speaker Wire, DIY Big Betsy and Crystal 10 Open Baffle Speakers
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stone_of_tone
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Re: February CDApS Meeting
Reply #136 - 04/22/17 at 13:53:22
 
Just bookmarked GIK. I need to graduate from my poor man's acoustic treatment. Fair price Pal, yes!
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Lonely Raven
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Re: February CDApS Meeting
Reply #137 - 04/24/17 at 01:11:56
 
Wow, those are well done!
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Jeff of Arabica
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Re: February CDApS Meeting
Reply #138 - 04/24/17 at 06:39:27
 
The GIK products look great aesthetically (and functionally), which seems like the typical sacrifice when committing to room treatments - at least from the majority of setups/products that I have seen.  

Their service seems pretty stellar.  Great online form with key questions to gather enough details to get as much or little room treatment advice based on your exact room.  It also has a section to upload photos.  I filled it out late Saturday night.  A gentlemen responded the next day and said someone will have the information in a day or two as to what they recommend for my room.  They asked some really good pointed questions to help cater their solutions to my room/equipment/sound issues.  They even asked how important aesthetics are, so that was comforting.  Not a hardline choice of form OR function.  

I am eager to see what they come back with.  This is the last step for me after several significant equipment upgrades.  My room is in dire need.
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Steve Deckert
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Re: February CDApS Meeting
Reply #139 - 04/28/17 at 08:15:38
 
see what your playlist did?  (note the time of post)

Great stuff.
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Re: February CDApS Meeting
Reply #140 - 04/30/17 at 01:02:40
 
I got a nice compliment from my oldest son yesterday.  He ventured in to my room and wanted to have a listen.  He dies this from time to time.

He sat down and right away he said "wow, you have created quite the sound meditation chamber."

The room is sounding really good.

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i7 Mac Mini with LPSU/SSD running Audirvana 3.5, Uptone Audio Regen on LPSU, Mytek Brooklyn DAC+, Ven Haus DIY Silver ICs, 25th Ann. Zen, PS Audio P5 Power Supply, PS Audio Power Cords, GR Research Speaker Wire, DIY Big Betsy and Crystal 10 Open Baffle Speakers
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Lonely Raven
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Re: February CDApS Meeting
Reply #141 - 05/02/17 at 18:31:51
 

Time for a meet? Maybe this Sunday? Or are you playing sailor?
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Re: February CDApS Meeting
Reply #142 - 05/02/17 at 18:57:32
 
Possibly.  I am playing lawn boy or deck refinisher -- depending on if it ever stops raining.
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i7 Mac Mini with LPSU/SSD running Audirvana 3.5, Uptone Audio Regen on LPSU, Mytek Brooklyn DAC+, Ven Haus DIY Silver ICs, 25th Ann. Zen, PS Audio P5 Power Supply, PS Audio Power Cords, GR Research Speaker Wire, DIY Big Betsy and Crystal 10 Open Baffle Speakers
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Donnie
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Re: February CDApS Meeting
Reply #143 - 05/02/17 at 23:25:45
 
I'm pretty sure that it is going to rain for 40 days!
The creek is up, the pond is overflowing and the hayfield is a swamp.
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