Welcome, Guest. Please Login or Register
Decware Audio Forums
01/30/23 at 21:11:15 




Pages: 1 2 3 
Send Topic Print
February CDApS Meeting (Read 87646 times)
stone_of_tone
Seasoned Member
****


Listen Often/Listen
Deep

Posts: 3217
Re: February CDApS Meeting
Reply #50 - 03/03/17 at 18:32:06
 
Very cool LR.
Back to top
 
 

Room Treats-M.Green & mine
Sony TPort
Illuminati D60
Shunyata Z-Alpha DigPcord
Decware ZDSD DAC
Kimber Select KS1030
XLOProPcord
Decware ZMA/25th Mods
Kimber Select KS6063
Acoustic Zen Adagio/Modified
Kimber PK10 Palladian from wall
to PS Audio P3
  IP Logged
Palomino
Seasoned Member
****




Posts: 2368
Re: February CDApS Meeting
Reply #51 - 03/03/17 at 18:58:05
 
I can't wait to borrow it Wink
Back to top
 
 

i7 Mac Mini with LPSU/SSD running Audirvana 3.5, Uptone Audio Regen on LPSU, Mytek Brooklyn DAC+, Ven Haus DIY Silver ICs, 25th Ann. Zen, PS Audio P5 Power Supply, PS Audio Power Cords, GR Research Speaker Wire, DIY Big Betsy and Crystal 10 Open Baffle Speakers
  IP Logged
Lonely Raven
Seasoned Member
****


Jack of all Trades,
Master of None

Posts: 3563
Re: February CDApS Meeting
Reply #52 - 03/04/17 at 08:28:44
 
Quote:
I can't wait to borrow it Wink


Hahaha, you're a funny guy.

So it's about 2:22am - I've had the amp on for about 30 hours straight I think. I finally got around to hooking it up to my MG944. At first I was like, oh crap, the Omega sound better...but then I put my Demo Tunes on, the same ones I've been playing at Decfest for the past 3 years. And I'll be damned....this amp is so resolving, I'm hearing things jump out that I guess I've subconsciously known was there, but now I can hear it all!

Now, these are tracks I've played to death - I joke about my fiance and I splitting up over hearing Helplessly Hoping and the first three tracks of the first ALT-J album for the millionth time...and every one of my Demo Tunes sounds like it's a new remaster with  more micro-detail and accuracy. Ugh, so amazing.  

Finally this little amp does something the ZMA can't and earns its keep!

Well done, Steve! This is really something!
Back to top
 
 
WWW Lonely Raven   IP Logged
Lonely Raven
Seasoned Member
****


Jack of all Trades,
Master of None

Posts: 3563
Re: February CDApS Meeting
Reply #53 - 03/04/17 at 08:47:22
 
P.S. the reason I thought the Omega beat the MG944 right off the bat, is due to the amps unforgiving nature - Roon was on random and whatever track that happened to be playing when I brought the volume up was "itchy" sounding. Everything else on my demo tracks was fine.

P.P.S. there is currently only 1.5 diffusers in the room - and only a couple absorbers - so yeah, this is going to get even better once I get the room put back together or this setup moved to a spare bedroom.  :)

OK, back to listening, I'm at the end of my Demo Tunes and about to cue up some Tori Amos.
Back to top
 
 
WWW Lonely Raven   IP Logged
ProggRob
Seasoned Member
****


CDApS Member

Posts: 239
Re: February CDApS Meeting
Reply #54 - 03/05/17 at 17:56:04
 
Quote:
#2 I don't want to give away too much, but Steve said that going over this amp, doing this mod on an early version of the Zen with his current knowledge may have inspired a small batch run of Zen amps in the future. That's all I really know, and it's not like it's going to be anytime soon, but the seed has been planted. I think it's a great idea and will be worth whatever Steve's asking, for those of you that are die-hard Zen amp lovers.


Quote:
The result is a faster, much less forgiving, but so very neutral Zen amp that sounds *way* louder than any Zen amp I've ever heard! It is *exactly* the amp I wanted to be! Hell, this thing is even less forgiving and more neutral than the ZMA!  It's like it has a Napoleon Complex after being pushed aside for the ZMA, and got all roided out and cut and now punches out of it's weight class! LOL


Interesting.  You had my Zen for a few days after the UFO mod, so I'm guessing your mod's power/volume exceeds what you remember from mine.  Not sure what other context you'd have in your own system?  While I don't lust for more volume that often, it's really the only thing missing from the Zen IMHO.  I'll be paying attention to see if this goes anywhere.
Back to top
 
 

Baetis Revolution II -> HFC CT-1E Digital Cable -> Denefrips Terminator -> Black Cat Setsuna XLR -> LTA Ultralinear Integrated -> Black Cat Setsuna SC -> Betsy Alnicos
Bass: 4x Hawthorne Augies w/ 2 Rythmik amps
Power: TWL 7+ and Digital, UberBUSS, Furutech Outl
  IP Logged
Lonely Raven
Seasoned Member
****


Jack of all Trades,
Master of None

Posts: 3563
Re: February CDApS Meeting
Reply #55 - 03/05/17 at 23:03:09
 
I don't recall how much time I spent with your amp, but I don't remember it having this much horsepower. I think I do recall it running out of steam, I felt like I was driving it too hard to get it where I wanted it to go.

Up until my Zen amp mod, yours was the best sounding I had heard. Especially on your setup.
Back to top
 
 
WWW Lonely Raven   IP Logged
Dave1210
Seasoned Member
****




Posts: 956
Re: February CDApS Meeting
Reply #56 - 03/07/17 at 01:22:00
 
I finally got around to moving everything out of the room, with the exception of a few of the room treatments.  The positives of doing this were immediately obvious.  

Stream of conscious thought…and a few (bad) pictures….
-The sound bloomed and the music opened up significantly.  
-I hear better separation between instruments and air.
-Sound was better not only in the sweet spot, but all around the room.
-Everything in the front of the room appeared to be distorting the music, or wasn’t letting the sound waves form naturally.
-Speaker positioning is very important, even with the ERRx’s.  Moving the speakers closer to the front wall caused blurring and confusion.  
-I have increased the width of the ERR’s but they are still sitting fairly close to the listening position.  
-I experimented with removing the bass traps in the front corners of the room and that had a detrimental impact on the sound overall, so those stayed.  
-I’m still not sure how to best treat the front of the room.  After further listening I’m convinced I’m getting some acoustic distortion from the diffusers.
-I have read that sitting too close to diffusers can introduce artifacts such as near field comb filtering.  
-Guideline for QRD diffusers seems to be 3X the longest wavelength diffused
-With this in mind, I’m not sure deep well diffusers would be the best option for me.  
-In smaller rooms it seems that combination absorber/diffuser panels are more typically recommended.
-Or diffusers that don’t diffuse as low in frequency
-If I wasn’t imagining things last evening, the soundstage took on a horseshoe type shape on some tracks.   Absorption in the corners could pin the stage, while the diffusers push through the front wall??  
-I still feel like I am looking to the left and there is still some unbalance, but overall the soundstage is very immersive.    
-Also, the room looks terrible with nothing in it and this setup isn’t going to last very long.
-I’m going to try to build it back up in a way that maximizes sound but also improves aesthetics.
-I’m glad I took the time to gut the room and will have a few weeks to experiment.  It has been another ear opening experience on the journey.  
Back to top
 

Room.jpg
  IP Logged
Dave1210
Seasoned Member
****




Posts: 956
Re: February CDApS Meeting
Reply #57 - 03/07/17 at 01:24:09
 
-I moved the TV and stand out of the room, and the audio equipment off to the side, something I have been meaning to do for a while to, so nothing is really in the way of the speakers.
-Surprisingly, the RFI I was experiencing in one speaker seems to be gone.  Not sure what is going on there.  
-I also noticed when moving the ZMA that there is something rolling around inside the amp.  Solder?  
Back to top
 

Equipment_Side.jpg
  IP Logged
Steve Deckert
Administrator
*****


If the 1st watt
sucks why continue?

Posts: 5858
Re: February CDApS Meeting
Reply #58 - 03/07/17 at 03:05:17
 
With respect to the diffusers on the front wall, moving them together will dramatically increase the effective diffusion over having them separated.  Also when you put them together, center them in the wall as best you can.  In the white space on either side put soft absorption of some kind, the thicker the better, and then you should be able to tweak the position of the speakers back towards the front wall a touch, and gain overall better focus.
Back to top
 
 
WWW   IP Logged
Steve Deckert
Administrator
*****


If the 1st watt
sucks why continue?

Posts: 5858
Re: February CDApS Meeting
Reply #59 - 03/07/17 at 03:08:55
 
LR - glad you're enjoying it.  Your description is spot on to what I hear over here.  Surprised you haven't looked inside yet... be careful if you do not to let the zen escape.

Steve
Back to top
 
 
WWW   IP Logged
stone_of_tone
Seasoned Member
****


Listen Often/Listen
Deep

Posts: 3217
Re: February CDApS Meeting
Reply #60 - 03/07/17 at 16:33:41
 
Damit LR! Now, for sure I'm going to Decware this summer by appt., and no stone (stone of tone  8-)) will be left unturned. Geeeez!  ;D

LR wrote:
"#2 I don't want to give away too much, but Steve said that going over this amp, doing this mod on an early version of the Zen with his current knowledge may have inspired a small batch run of Zen amps in the future."
Back to top
 
 

Room Treats-M.Green & mine
Sony TPort
Illuminati D60
Shunyata Z-Alpha DigPcord
Decware ZDSD DAC
Kimber Select KS1030
XLOProPcord
Decware ZMA/25th Mods
Kimber Select KS6063
Acoustic Zen Adagio/Modified
Kimber PK10 Palladian from wall
to PS Audio P3
  IP Logged
Lonely Raven
Seasoned Member
****


Jack of all Trades,
Master of None

Posts: 3563
Re: February CDApS Meeting
Reply #61 - 03/07/17 at 16:44:34
 

Dave,

I think it's fantastic that you're experimenting the way you are! Keep at it!
And I agree 100% with what Steve said. Keep the diffusers together and put some absorption up front. You could also try hanging a blanket or tapestry or something on the front wall to tone down the reflections some, then put the diffusers in front of it. You could also try angling the diffusers a bit - maybe make a very subtle V out of them so they are re-directing sound outwards more. Lots of little tweaks you can try to shapre how you perceive the recodings.

The diffusers are also far enough away from your listening position that I'm not sure they *causing* acoustic distortion, so much as because they are cleaning up some of the spectrum for you, you're now able to *hear* the acoustic distortion that particular space has. Just keep playing till your happy (which, for us, IMHO is probably never LOL)

Quote:
LR - glad you're enjoying it.  Your description is spot on to what I hear over here.  Surprised you haven't looked inside yet... be careful if you do not to let the zen escape.

Steve


Ahh, you know me too well, Steve. I wanted to crack open the little grey case before I even left your driveway. The truth is I'm enjoying it so much I haven't given any time to peeking inside of it!

Now, I've heard you say something will blow me away or whatever, but this is the first time one of your projects surpassed your hyperbol. LOL I'm really enjoying this amp, the UFO mod is really something special.

Thanks again my friend!

~Eric~

Back to top
 
 
WWW Lonely Raven   IP Logged
Dave1210
Seasoned Member
****




Posts: 956
Re: February CDApS Meeting
Reply #62 - 03/08/17 at 00:04:27
 
Thanks Steve/LR!  

The next step in the journey...

I will listen to this setup for a couple of days and report back...
Back to top
 

Absorp_Diffusion_Center_jpg.jpg
  IP Logged
Lonely Raven
Seasoned Member
****


Jack of all Trades,
Master of None

Posts: 3563
Re: February CDApS Meeting
Reply #63 - 03/08/17 at 17:30:58
 
So yeah, as soon as I got home last night from business travel, I cracked the amp open. I have to admit, I was kinda hoping to see welded points or something. But it looks like a hand built Zen amp.

I love that Steve took the bottom cover and flipped it over and put a new label on the bottom. That made me smile.  This little guy is crammed - but Steve has it working and I swear it's even more quiet than it was previously. I also noticed that it seems to squeeze more out of whatever input tube you put in there - meaning you can more clearly hear what character an input tube has. Love it!

Edit to Add: I just realized that I've been so enthralled with this amp, that I've not even tried the bias switch on the front, or the 4ohm-8ohm impedance switch on the back! LOL














Back to top
 
 
WWW Lonely Raven   IP Logged
Lonely Raven
Seasoned Member
****


Jack of all Trades,
Master of None

Posts: 3563
Re: February CDApS Meeting
Reply #64 - 03/09/17 at 14:50:19
 
I listened to the Zen till 2am again last night while working on house projects. Just for giggles I hooked up some old (and beat looking) Alesis studio monitors; Monitor One I believe the model is. I honestly forgot I had them connected instead of my Omega Super Hemp or MG944, it simply just sounded good.



I hate to say this, but I've had zero desire to plug in the ZMA - the UFO Zen just sounds so right...though I admit, when I wanted to "crank my jam", I realized I had no room for said cranking. Beyond that, I have not been left wanting.

Oh, I should also add, I've been supplimenting the bottom end with my 18" sealed sub, powered off my crown amp, crossed over at like 53hz or something - just for the real low end. Acoustic bass sounds amazing, because you get the realistic woody detail from the Zen (especially with the Omega SuperHemp), and you get an almost visceral bottom end from the sub crossed over so low. The little Zen reproduces bass exceedingly well for it's flea wattage, and sometimes the Omega 8" feels like it's going lower than the MG944 towers! I'll have to take some measurements eventually to properly place the big sub(s), and figure out the proper crossover point depending on what speakers I'm pairing up with. But when dialed in so low, it doesn't trip up the main speakers, and gives me a fullness that some tracks just don't wound right without. I just might be missing a few notes between the bottom of the mains and the top of the sub frequency, but it hasn't been bad enough to pull me out of the enjoyment of the music.

Edit: Oh yeah, I still need to work on beautifying my Betsy baffles and get those back in circulation with the Zen amp!  

At this point I'll probably stop tacking onto this thread, and I'll return to my home theater rebuild thread since I plan on spending all day Sunday working on building the screen and hopefully pulling the room back together. I feel naked without a room full of diffusers.  :)
Back to top
 
 
WWW Lonely Raven   IP Logged
Lonely Raven
Seasoned Member
****


Jack of all Trades,
Master of None

Posts: 3563
Re: February CDApS Meeting
Reply #65 - 03/09/17 at 14:54:17
 

Dave, one last point about your diffusers - you might get a little more effect by getting them up higher on the wall. See if you can put them on a box and cover more of the middle of the wall as those are the reflections that are most likely to make it back to your ears (compared to the 12"-20" by the floor)
Back to top
 
 
WWW Lonely Raven   IP Logged
ProggRob
Seasoned Member
****


CDApS Member

Posts: 239
Re: February CDApS Meeting
Reply #66 - 03/09/17 at 21:44:57
 
Your system is starting to look an awful lot like mine and Palomino's, LR!   Grin
Back to top
 
 

Baetis Revolution II -> HFC CT-1E Digital Cable -> Denefrips Terminator -> Black Cat Setsuna XLR -> LTA Ultralinear Integrated -> Black Cat Setsuna SC -> Betsy Alnicos
Bass: 4x Hawthorne Augies w/ 2 Rythmik amps
Power: TWL 7+ and Digital, UberBUSS, Furutech Outl
  IP Logged
Lonely Raven
Seasoned Member
****


Jack of all Trades,
Master of None

Posts: 3563
Re: February CDApS Meeting
Reply #67 - 03/09/17 at 22:51:13
 

Yeah, the Betsys were the first OBs that didn't make me cringe with the weird single driver honk that drives me nuts.

Back to top
 
 
WWW Lonely Raven   IP Logged
Dave1210
Seasoned Member
****




Posts: 956
Re: February CDApS Meeting
Reply #68 - 03/10/17 at 00:17:36
 
Thanks LR.  That is next on my list of things to do.  

I have been pretty happy with the sound of the setup so far, and without a lot of tweaking.  I think there is a lot of tuning that can still be done.  If you could do anything, would it be replacing the absorbers with diffusion on the front wall?  

Also, I am starting to formulate ideas on how to put the room back together, improving aesthetics and maintaining good sound.  I'm thinking...

-Painting the front wall gray, like the left side wall.
-Abstract art acoustic fabric on the absorbers (assuming they stay), to break up the solid wall of black.  I have already looked into getting printed acoustic fabric to do this myself.  
-Painting the diffusion panels white or in a Rothko type look, for a modern art look in the center of the wall.  I could also put an acoustic fabric "mural" over the diffusers.  
-Removing the framed posters from college that are currently hanging above everything  8-)

That said, I don't want to do any of the aesthetic tweaks until I feel I'm in good place with the sound overall.  Oh yes, and I'll likely have some panels made that fit the windows perfectly.  And a new rug...  

Geez...still a lot to do...

Dave



   
Back to top
 
 
  IP Logged
Lonely Raven
Seasoned Member
****


Jack of all Trades,
Master of None

Posts: 3563
Re: February CDApS Meeting
Reply #69 - 03/10/17 at 15:26:11
 

Quote:
 If you could do anything, would it be replacing the absorbers with diffusion on the front wall?


I wouldn't be replacing, so much as *adding* more diffusers. You do need both, and the acoustics books recommend about 25% surface area coverage for proper effect. I also feel that diffusers allow you to sculpt the sound field more than absorbers, so I see them as a correction device *and* a tuning device...whereas absorbers are simply a correcting device.

I love your ideas, and I'm looking forward to seeing what you do with them!
Back to top
 
 
WWW Lonely Raven   IP Logged
Ellsworth
Seasoned Member
****




Posts: 120
Re: February CDApS Meeting
Reply #70 - 03/12/17 at 21:24:53
 
This thread has inspired me to start looking at my room.  GIK Acoustics recommended laying bass absorption panels down on top of my component rack (this is the shelving behind the speakers.  I am definitely going to do this.  The other recommendation was to set up portable side panels beside the listening chair.  Due to speak and WAF, I can't do this.

I could probably get a corner trap behind the TV so that it would not be visible.  Does anyone else think this might have a benefit?
Back to top
 

IMG_0061.JPG
  IP Logged
Ellsworth
Seasoned Member
****




Posts: 120
Re: February CDApS Meeting
Reply #71 - 03/12/17 at 21:26:13
 
Here's is another shot of the room from behind the listening chair.
Back to top
 

IMG_0057.JPG
  IP Logged
Syd
Seasoned Member
****




Posts: 1534
Re: February CDApS Meeting
Reply #72 - 03/13/17 at 11:45:33
 
I`m thinking you wont be needing ceiling treatment Smiley)
Back to top
 
 

Decware: Rachaels x 2 bridged, C. SP2+, ZP3, ZMC1, DHC-1 pw/cbl`s Michell Orbe + SME V + M.Benz LP s, Arcam CD33, Nakamichi LX5, Lowther acoustas DX2`s, WE 16g sp/cbl`s, Isotek mains substation, M & K subwoofer, Belden 8402 interconnects.
  IP Logged
Dave1210
Seasoned Member
****




Posts: 956
Re: February CDApS Meeting
Reply #73 - 03/14/17 at 02:55:16
 
One step closer...

Ellsworth...your pictures show up 'right side up' on my phone but not on my computer...not sure what is going on there...also, the pictures are YUGE, so it's difficult to see what is going on...
Back to top
 

FullSizeRender_001.jpg
  IP Logged
Ellsworth
Seasoned Member
****




Posts: 120
Re: February CDApS Meeting
Reply #74 - 03/14/17 at 16:34:39
 
Sorry about that but I am not sure how to make the pic smaller.  The basic story I see that I have a flat panel tv extending from a corner that takes up much of the space between the side wall and speaker.  I am thinking about trying some type of corner trap behind the tv to see if that helps clean up the bass.
Back to top
 
 
  IP Logged
Dave1210
Seasoned Member
****




Posts: 956
Re: February CDApS Meeting
Reply #75 - 03/15/17 at 00:09:02
 
Ellsworth... I am using GIK Soffit bass traps in the front of my room.  I recently tried removing them, but they have such a positive impact, I quickly put them back.   I would think corner traps, even behind the TV, would make be a noticeable improvement.
Back to top
 
 
  IP Logged
Rraymond
Seasoned Member
****




Posts: 210
Re: February CDApS Meeting
Reply #76 - 03/15/17 at 00:59:53
 
Dave,
Hope your enjoying the speakers. I miss having the highly figured walnut in my room and seeing them in your room was kind of a tug on my heart but at least I can see they went to a good home. I'm enjoying my Zu's here at my humble abode...😊
Back to top
 
 

Audion Silver Night Special Edition 300b integrated, Zu Soul Superfly speakers, Acoustic Solid TT with Denon 103 MC cart, PS Audio NuWave phono, Zu Event MKII speaker cables with BU3 connectors.
  IP Logged
Tripwr1964
Seasoned Member
****




Posts: 435
Re: February CDApS Meeting
Reply #77 - 03/15/17 at 01:22:16
 
LR that A-Model is the bomb!!!  Love stuff like that.
Back to top
 
 

CSP3 25yr, CAD 120s MKII, Sunfire Signature600, Sota Star Sapphire, SME309, Hana SL, JC3+, Schiit bifrost multibit, CXC, MG1.6QR w/ ext xo & mye stands, OB Augies. herbies iso, VH audio flavor diy pwr cords, Beden 8402 & Dueland IC's,
  IP Logged
Dave1210
Seasoned Member
****




Posts: 956
Re: February CDApS Meeting
Reply #78 - 03/15/17 at 02:32:19
 
Rick,

I think I am just starting to scratch the surface of what the ERRx’s are capable of in my room.  I have gone down a rabbit hole breaking down the room to let the speakers breathe in order to get a sense for what they are capable of.    I should have expected they would be as sensitive to placement as other speakers.   Lots more experimentation to go.  That said, I have had some of the best listening sessions to date with the room in its current state.  

Pal,

Not sure if you are following this thread, but regarding continuity of space within the soundstage, I wonder if the below track applies:

-Melody Gardot’s Album ‘My One and Only Thrill’ (Track 4, “Your Heart Is As Black as Night”)
-Specifically, shortly after the opening piano, a trumpet enters (stage left, back) that I can hear echoing off the wall (stage right, side/front corner).    This one seems slightly more obvious to me versus some of the other examples you provided, but I am curious what you think.
-Hopefully you are still streaming TIDAL if you don’t already have this track!
Back to top
 
 
  IP Logged
Palomino
Seasoned Member
****




Posts: 2368
Re: February CDApS Meeting
Reply #79 - 03/15/17 at 17:07:04
 
Hi Dave,

I'll give it a listen and report back.  I have that album.

When my trial on Tidal runs out, I will likely pay for a subscription.  Seems worth it to me.
Back to top
 
 

i7 Mac Mini with LPSU/SSD running Audirvana 3.5, Uptone Audio Regen on LPSU, Mytek Brooklyn DAC+, Ven Haus DIY Silver ICs, 25th Ann. Zen, PS Audio P5 Power Supply, PS Audio Power Cords, GR Research Speaker Wire, DIY Big Betsy and Crystal 10 Open Baffle Speakers
  IP Logged
Dave1210
Seasoned Member
****




Posts: 956
Re: February CDApS Meeting
Reply #80 - 03/15/17 at 18:44:38
 
Pal...I'm fully committed to TIDAL at this point.  I think I have over 1500 albums, playlists, saved (I am only 28,500 albums shy of a Lon collection).  I love sitting down with a cup of coffee on Sat/Sun morning and adding new music while the family is still sleeping--music that is just waiting to be discovered at a later point in time.  I recently added a bunch of meditation/sacred tone/solfeggio scale music after reading Steve's latest article.  

Coming back to sound stage continuity,  I'm also curious about your thoughts on the initial piano "hits" at the beginning of Calpyso Minor (from Abdullah Ibrahim's album Sotho Blue).  I'm fairly certain you have that album as well.  

Looking forward to your thoughts...

-Dave
Back to top
 
 
  IP Logged
Palomino
Seasoned Member
****




Posts: 2368
Re: February CDApS Meeting
Reply #81 - 03/15/17 at 19:00:31
 
I will check out Calypso tonight if I get a chance.

I haven't really spent much time learning Tidal.  I usually just search for songs I want to hear and/or listen to playlists in the various genres.  I haven't even put together a playlist myself.

But there is a ton of music there.  I often end up buying some music I hear there which I know sounds stupid, but I don't have Wi-Fi at the cottage and I definitely don't have it at the beach so I buy some of it to have on my iPod/thumb drive.

What is also nice is via Bluetooth in the car, I can listen to Tidal on the mobile ap as I drive.  I also use it with my various boomboxes when I am outside where I can get a signal.

I will always struggle with not having the music file, but I think they got it right with Tidal and the future is now.
Back to top
 
 

i7 Mac Mini with LPSU/SSD running Audirvana 3.5, Uptone Audio Regen on LPSU, Mytek Brooklyn DAC+, Ven Haus DIY Silver ICs, 25th Ann. Zen, PS Audio P5 Power Supply, PS Audio Power Cords, GR Research Speaker Wire, DIY Big Betsy and Crystal 10 Open Baffle Speakers
  IP Logged
Lonely Raven
Seasoned Member
****


Jack of all Trades,
Master of None

Posts: 3563
Re: February CDApS Meeting
Reply #82 - 03/15/17 at 20:41:05
 
So how's your mobile data rates looking then Pal? I mean, cost wise, using all that bandwidth.

~Eric~
Back to top
 
 
WWW Lonely Raven   IP Logged
Palomino
Seasoned Member
****




Posts: 2368
Re: February CDApS Meeting
Reply #83 - 03/15/17 at 20:42:56
 
Unlimited plan.  An oldy but goody from Sprint that they keep trying to nudge me out of but I have complained and talked them into letting me stay in it.

Not that sprint isn't making money on me.  I am paying for 6 phones.
Back to top
 
 

i7 Mac Mini with LPSU/SSD running Audirvana 3.5, Uptone Audio Regen on LPSU, Mytek Brooklyn DAC+, Ven Haus DIY Silver ICs, 25th Ann. Zen, PS Audio P5 Power Supply, PS Audio Power Cords, GR Research Speaker Wire, DIY Big Betsy and Crystal 10 Open Baffle Speakers
  IP Logged
Dave1210
Seasoned Member
****




Posts: 956
Re: February CDApS Meeting
Reply #84 - 03/15/17 at 20:52:50
 
TIDAL does have an Offline Content feature for mobile devices.  I listen to my downloaded TIDAL tracks at work and in the car, so I am not using my mobile data.  
Back to top
 
 
  IP Logged
Palomino
Seasoned Member
****




Posts: 2368
Re: February CDApS Meeting
Reply #85 - 03/15/17 at 20:54:30
 
Interesting.  I'll have to read up on that.  

They are Flac (right?) so they are big files.
Back to top
 
 

i7 Mac Mini with LPSU/SSD running Audirvana 3.5, Uptone Audio Regen on LPSU, Mytek Brooklyn DAC+, Ven Haus DIY Silver ICs, 25th Ann. Zen, PS Audio P5 Power Supply, PS Audio Power Cords, GR Research Speaker Wire, DIY Big Betsy and Crystal 10 Open Baffle Speakers
  IP Logged
Dave1210
Seasoned Member
****




Posts: 956
Re: February CDApS Meeting
Reply #86 - 03/15/17 at 21:09:37
 
I'm not sure how big the Offline Content files are.  It is worth looking into whether they are CD quality.  I only have a small subset of my total collection downloaded, so I'm currently not using up too much space on my phone.  It's easy enough to manage your offline content via the mobile app, so I just add and subtract things when I'm connected to my wireless network at home.

Streamed files are CD quality FLAC, with the TIDAL HIFI subscription. 
Back to top
 
 
  IP Logged
Core32
Seasoned Member
****




Posts: 1857
Re: February CDApS Meeting
Reply #87 - 03/15/17 at 21:10:11
 
Quote:
TIDAL does have an Offline Content feature for mobile devices.  I listen to my downloaded TIDAL tracks at work and in the car, so I am not using my mobile data.


This, exactly. Saves tons on the data plan.
Download to the phone while on WIFI somewhere, then play via BT while in the car.
Back to top
 
 
  IP Logged
Palomino
Seasoned Member
****




Posts: 2368
Re: February CDApS Meeting
Reply #88 - 03/16/17 at 02:28:55
 
Dave,

i was able to listen to the Melody Gardot and yes, the echo is there plain as day.  it really seems to hang there for a while on the second phrase of the solo after the drums start.  That whole track has nice ambient sounds.

On Calypso, the first piano strike starts about mid height stage left and then drifts up and fills the upper sound stage and then dissapates like a cloud of gas.  i hadn't listened to this album in a while and really enjoyed it on the Betsy drivers.
Back to top
 
 

i7 Mac Mini with LPSU/SSD running Audirvana 3.5, Uptone Audio Regen on LPSU, Mytek Brooklyn DAC+, Ven Haus DIY Silver ICs, 25th Ann. Zen, PS Audio P5 Power Supply, PS Audio Power Cords, GR Research Speaker Wire, DIY Big Betsy and Crystal 10 Open Baffle Speakers
  IP Logged
Dave1210
Seasoned Member
****




Posts: 956
Re: February CDApS Meeting
Reply #89 - 03/16/17 at 03:06:32
 
I too had a recent rediscovery of Sotho Blue.  I listened to the entire album last weekend and thoroughly enjoyed it (the piano stabs caught my attention and got me thinking about the SS continuity concept you and LR were describing a while back).  I enjoy the music and it is well recorded.  

I appreciate you taking the time to listen and provide feedback.  I am hearing similar things on both tracks.  Would you consider these to be examples of 'soundstage continuity'?  Or are they too obvious?  

The examples you provided in previous posts (sax in Flamenco Sketches, guitar in Gold Dust Woman) were not quite as obvious to me, but maybe I need to go back and listen with my 'new' room.  
Back to top
 
 
  IP Logged
Palomino
Seasoned Member
****




Posts: 2368
Re: February CDApS Meeting
Reply #90 - 03/16/17 at 18:49:17
 
I think Raven used the term soundstage continuity so he could respond as well, but to me its a seamless overall soundstage where an instrument's note continues in a fluid, natural manner across the soundstage as it would in an actual room.  The notes themselves have lifecycle that is natural and flowing with realistic echo or decay (note my comment about dissipating like gas above).

I have experienced this with rear ported horns, diffusers and now OBs.  OBs + diffusers = the best lifelike and continuous soundstage that I have experienced.  

And in my OBs, the Betsys do this better than my Tang Bands, although the Tang Bands are more precise and realistic to me.  They just don't fill the room the way the Bestys do.  Said another way, Tang Bands are more "focused" and less airy and sense of air is important to maximizing the soundstage continuity concept.

A couple descriptors that Steve once said to me seems to work here:  The Tang Bands are more precise and "audiophile" sounding while the Betsys are more vintage or "Hi-fi" sounding.  It just depends on what I am in the mood for.  

Lately, its the Betsys because they do the soundstage continuity thing so effortlessly and I have been listening to music that "reproduces the room" so they get the nod.

Sorry, wandered around a little there, but you get my drift.  Might be akin to what you get from 944s versus ERRs.
Back to top
 
 

i7 Mac Mini with LPSU/SSD running Audirvana 3.5, Uptone Audio Regen on LPSU, Mytek Brooklyn DAC+, Ven Haus DIY Silver ICs, 25th Ann. Zen, PS Audio P5 Power Supply, PS Audio Power Cords, GR Research Speaker Wire, DIY Big Betsy and Crystal 10 Open Baffle Speakers
  IP Logged
maddog07
Seasoned Member
****


seeker of truth

Posts: 575
Re: February CDApS Meeting
Reply #91 - 03/16/17 at 20:13:32
 
We're in the same place Pal...  and thus why I have no less than 8 sets of speakers at this point in time.  Each one a different design from the others; horn loaded, OB, bass reflex, xoverless single full range driver, sealed infinite baffle, 2-way coax, powered monitor, bi-pole, di-pole.....
Depending on my mood and what music I'm "in to" at any given point in time determines what I have hooked up.

It is my goal "this year" to get down to only 2-3 pair - for the 2-ch man cave system anyway.  HT is a different story.  I predict the Betsy's and my giant OB Trio's have permanent residency... and one other pair - yet to be determined
Back to top
 
 

Decware Torii MK3, Wyred4Sound DAC2, Theta Digital Miles, Emotiva XMC-1, Emotiva XPA-5, Aesthetix Calypso, Wyred STP-SE, Martin Logan Vista, Audio Nirvana 12" Alnico's, PS Audio PW P5, Goertz, Kimber, Nordost and DIY wires, PSA pwr cords, Cary SLI-80, DM945's.....
  IP Logged
Lonely Raven
Seasoned Member
****


Jack of all Trades,
Master of None

Posts: 3563
Re: February CDApS Meeting
Reply #92 - 03/16/17 at 21:01:21
 
Quote:
I think Raven used the term soundstage continuity so he could respond as well, but to me its a seamless overall soundstage where an instrument's note continues in a fluid, natural manner across the soundstage as it would in an actual room.  The notes themselves have lifecycle that is natural and flowing with realistic echo or decay (note my comment about dissipating like gas above).


That's a pretty good description. You've had it right for so long, you might not remember that black hole that was in the middle of your room. You could clearly hear the left side and right side as separate entities. But when it's right, you don't just have vocals/instruments floating between the speakers, but the air that gives you a sense of the room (in the recording) completely fills that left-center-right space as well.

It's like, if you were blind and in cave, you'd be able to *feel* the rough size of your space - and it would be obvious, even though you were blind, that there was a big black hole that you weren't getting reflections from. That black hold would be the broken continuity...it's more about spacial information than just having a center image.
Back to top
 
 
WWW Lonely Raven   IP Logged
Palomino
Seasoned Member
****




Posts: 2368
Re: February CDApS Meeting
Reply #93 - 03/16/17 at 21:38:13
 
There is still a small problem over there and I am 99% certain its that damn desk.
Back to top
 
 

i7 Mac Mini with LPSU/SSD running Audirvana 3.5, Uptone Audio Regen on LPSU, Mytek Brooklyn DAC+, Ven Haus DIY Silver ICs, 25th Ann. Zen, PS Audio P5 Power Supply, PS Audio Power Cords, GR Research Speaker Wire, DIY Big Betsy and Crystal 10 Open Baffle Speakers
  IP Logged
Dave1210
Seasoned Member
****




Posts: 956
Re: February CDApS Meeting
Reply #94 - 03/17/17 at 00:27:14
 
Just when I thought I understood and had heard the continuity of space across my soundstage with the echoes in those two tracks...

...LR starts talking about black holes and blind men in caves...
Back to top
 
 
  IP Logged
Lonely Raven
Seasoned Member
****


Jack of all Trades,
Master of None

Posts: 3563
Re: February CDApS Meeting
Reply #95 - 03/17/17 at 15:14:55
 
Quote:
There is still a small problem over there and I am 99% certain its that damn desk.


I'm happy to help you move it! Or downsize it or something.

Dedicated audio room, YES!!

Quote:
...LR starts talking about black holes and blind men in caves...


I'm sorry, I hope I didn't muddy the waters - it's just something that popped into my head that might help describe the continuity - it's really about the ambient cues - which I don't think many audiophiles understand, because while they do have a great center image, and spacial cues...but is that ambient space cue contiguous around the soundstage and instruments?

Palomino has had it so right, that you clearly get a sense of the space the recording was done in. Your walls disappear, and that space is overlaid in its place. At Steve's place many years ago, that same ambient information would wrap around you like surround sound to some extent, putting you further into the recording. Granted, his room also had too much reverb time (I didn't understand this at the time, but too much can muddy up things almost as much as naked wall reflections can) - which is why you need *both* absorbers and diffusers in your room.
Back to top
 
 
WWW Lonely Raven   IP Logged
Dave1210
Seasoned Member
****




Posts: 956
Re: February CDApS Meeting
Reply #96 - 03/18/17 at 19:03:48
 
LR...you didn't muddy the waters.   But, I still don't think I have any idea what you guys are talking about.  I'm fairly certain I just need to hear it.  Maybe one day!

What I am fairly certain about is that my sound is the best it has ever been.  Still more to experiment with and likely improvements to be had.  But, I'll likely never get to the level you guys are describing in my current room.  That said, I'll see how far I can push it and then 'live with it'.

Enjoy the weekend!

Dave  

Back to top
 
 
  IP Logged
Lonely Raven
Seasoned Member
****


Jack of all Trades,
Master of None

Posts: 3563
Re: February CDApS Meeting
Reply #97 - 03/19/17 at 07:29:09
 

I don't know, Dave, from the description of the leaps you've made recently, I'm betting you're a lot closer than you realize. Probably just a few tweaks and/or a couple pairs of diffusers away from it.

Tom, what are some tracks that jump out in your setup, where you can really hear the room of the recording? I know we've had some breakthroughs with Sara Bareilles - Goodbye Yellow Brick Road, but that one didn't slap you in the face and took a fair amount of work to get there. Anything else you can think of?

My room, unfortunately, isn't as good as Palomino's room. I've got 3X as much $$ in my gear as he does, and I can't touch his (mostly) dedicated room. I'm a firm believer that when the room is setup well, you could put some radio shack speakers in there and they'd sound pretty amazing.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5SiMOvWYFmo


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PVJd20RBZno


At 7:35, they show the speakers.  :)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dg3_yOYT4OA

Back to top
 
 
WWW Lonely Raven   IP Logged
Palomino
Seasoned Member
****




Posts: 2368
Re: February CDApS Meeting
Reply #98 - 03/20/17 at 18:57:52
 
Dave,

Search Tidal for "Live".  These are the recordings that usually provide the most dramatic sense of room:

* Eva Cassidy, Live a Blues Alley.  
* Allman Brothers Fillmore East.  
* Erykah Badu (great bass on this one BTW)  
* Waillin' Jenny's Live.  
* Sara Bareilles, Live at the Variety Playhouse (Sittin on the Dock of the Bay is probably the best "room" song)
* Musica Nuda Live a FIP
* Any live concert recording of Jeff Beck.  
* Minnesota Orchestra Fanfare for the Common Man.

Some non-live tracks:
Cowboy Junkies Trinity sessions (especially Walkin after Midnight)
Joe Jackson, Body and Soul

Basically, these recordings allow you to get a feel for the size and type of room the recording was made in.  For Jeff Beck recordings, you know he's playing a big arena (look for a live recording of Space for The Papa).

When I first heard Joe Jackson Body and Soul I thought that must have been recorded in a really cool, large venue.  Then I read the liner notes and found that the location was a church that had been painstakingly selected to achieve the acoustics Joe Jackson wanted on the album.

When you feel like you are sitting in that room/arena and not constrained to your listening room walls, you have it.
Back to top
 
 

i7 Mac Mini with LPSU/SSD running Audirvana 3.5, Uptone Audio Regen on LPSU, Mytek Brooklyn DAC+, Ven Haus DIY Silver ICs, 25th Ann. Zen, PS Audio P5 Power Supply, PS Audio Power Cords, GR Research Speaker Wire, DIY Big Betsy and Crystal 10 Open Baffle Speakers
  IP Logged
Dave1210
Seasoned Member
****




Posts: 956
Re: February CDApS Meeting
Reply #99 - 03/21/17 at 02:33:13
 
Thanks Pal.  I will definitely check these out.  

I assume that "hearing" the space is not the same as sitting in the room?  

On Cowboy Junkies "Trinity Sessions", in the opening track, I can almost "feel" the space.  There is, what appears to be a subway train, or air conditioner that helps define the vastness of the space.  In addition, her voices seems to echo off the back wall, giving you a sense for how large the venue is.  On Walking After Midnight, again the space seems vast.   The "walking" or foot tapping seems way back stage left and the guitar stage right seems to bounce of the back wall of the space.  And while the harmonica is very clear in attack and distinct, it also seems to bounce off the back wall, giving you a sense that the space is large.    

I can also immediately hear/feel the large space of Ryan Adam's "Live at Carnegie Hall".  A good example is the second version of "New York, New York", where he plays the song on the piano.  The space of the venue seems immense.  The piano seems to take up the entire room and more, if that makes sense (I hear something similar with the piano on "Sitting on the Dock of the Bay, but the venue seems much smaller).  You can hear the individual hits and echo of him hitting the pedals on the piano.  The coughs from the audience tend to put the space into perspective as well (almost as if the depth of the coughs put me on stage with him vs. me being in the audience, if that makes sense).  

I still have no idea if I am getting this or not.  But, I must say, I am really enjoying my listening sessions these days.  I will listen to the recordings you mentioned and will try a few more I have as well to try and get a better sense for what is going on.  

Thanks again.
Back to top
 
 
  IP Logged
Pages: 1 2 3 
Send Topic Print