I tested the water's on Agon, to sell my KS6063 and ARC Pre. Glad I kept getting low balled/I canceled the posts. Going forward, I will rotate the LS17 SE in and rotate Speaker Cables too.

The LS17 is really starting to open up (huge caps). It has replaced my CSP3 very nicely....when I want her/Pre, in the chain.

Ediswan's rule man (inputs)! I have my Telefunken's in as phase inverter's.....absolutely awesome...even blacker more detailed musical presentation....locked in seat. LS17 SE & KS6063 in right now too....sweet!

If you can find some Edi's testing well....get them.

My Mullard's are stellar too. However, they are the one's alone...that I prefer driving direct from ZDSD to ZMA.....the most/I should say....a delicacy, I would call it. The rest, I love the dynamic killer drive and weight density (commanding the ZMA) of the LS17 SE......bigger soundstage too.




NOS Platinum Tube Rotations in my ZMA,

(matched pairs/from Upscale Audio/Kevin):

(Germany) Telefunken E88CC ~ 1 pair
(Great Britain) Mullard 7308/E188CC ~  2 pair (both pair Cryogenic)
(US/Great Britain) Ediswan CV2492/6922 ~ 2 pair (one pair Cryogenic)
(Hungary) Tungsram 6922/E88CC ~ 1 pair
(Hungary) Tungsram PCC88/7DJ8 ~ 1 pair
(Russian) Cryoset 6N23N/P-EB ~ 2 pair

Hey Match, I know I would love your System. But, to do the refinement and squeeze more fidelity and timbre.....the rabbit hole is there....and I'm down in it.

Not in a million years would I pay the full list for the KS6063. I paid $110 below the half price for these. They were mint from thecableco. I own 8TC, and have owned 3033, 3035 for extended periods. The 6063 deliver. However, Kimber has made the new clear jacket 8TC so good...it can canabalize the product line a little bit so. But, the 6063 deliver's on some Disc's with jaw dropping timbre and deep imaging. Ah, let me rephrase this...it deliver's/gets out of the way on everything. What it lacks in just a little detail it makes up for in TREBLE extension refinement....that will make you piss your pants and cry. The definition and refinement, for example in Floor Toms......must be heard and the rest of the Timbre spectrum for that matter..... .

The ARC LS17 SE can be had for a little more than I was asking for it. I decided to keep it....I have the full warranty on it!  With 8TC and especially the KS6063.....ARC's moniker of High Definition is no idle boast/with my ZMA.....no boat anchor negative feedback tube amps need apply for the job.  ....but this ARC Pre bests my CSP3 easily. It has the LS27 proprietary Caps in it/Ref3 stuff too. At its height of production it sold for $4800 with the upgrade to SE version. Then listed at $5500 for awhile. They new to discontinue....it tended to canabalize the upper line....with its high value. (ARC blinked in 2011, with a DOW below 11000 pts. ....made this guy for 4 years ~ this SE version is just about unbeatable.....except for maybe an 5SE).

Anyway, I'm glad I got low-balled and canceled both listings.....best of both worlds....ARC world class Pre....and 6063 and switch out to no Pre with ZMA and my Mullard's for input tubes/ZMA....heaven running two Systems in one............ .

Oh, and ARC Pre's don't break....and if they do? ....They pride themselves on being able to fix all their stuff for 46 years back except for CD Transports....so yup, my circuit(s) will be on the shelf waiting in 10 years if ever needed for a reasonable cost and top notch service.

Kimber cables may be my new obsession.

Stone, I think your gear is a keeper.

I've looked at Kimber and while the KS6063 is not congruent with my current setup the 8TC I think might be.  So, I'll put that on my short list for my current setup.

I'd like to keep Stone's gear, too.

So, stone, I did some checks on Kimber and most of it is beyond my means at the moment; however, the 4PR seems to be within reach.  I mean, it has to be better than Monster knock-off, right?

If you go with the Kimber 4PR I suggest evaluating at the same time the Golden Helix from Mapleshade records. If you are trying the 8TC match it against Steve's Silver Reference.

stone, will the new monos require a pre-amp?

Yes, so we're clear.....I do mean the new/new Mono's:
https://www.decware.com/cgi-bin/yabb22/YaBB.pl?num=1471401401

.....not the 6C33C Mono's.

So, yes, they should have gain.

.....and $2500 for the pair............. .
??  

They won't supplant my ZMA.....just need to bring back in Pentode's in Triode again too (tube regulated).    8-)






Listening Room:


Room Treatments from Michael Green & Home Brew

Sony as Transport (DVP-NS57P)/Sandwich weighted for Isolation

Illuminati D-60 Digital Coax IC

Shunyata Research Ztron Alpha Digital Power Cord to ZDSD
{Extremely Significant}

Decware ZDSD DAC / Recorder
***************************************************************
W/Steve's Output Transformer's/kicking to the curb quite a few superb DAC'S!
***************************************************************
(@ -20 Ref Level, 0.0 Input volume and @ 16/192)



WBT-0102Ag RCA Kimber Select KS1030


Audio Research LS17 SE Preamplifier ~ w/stock 6H30's

~ OR ~ NO PRE....run ZDSD Direct to ZMA



WBT-0102Ag RCA Kimber Select KS1030


Decware Zen Mystery Amplifier
~BIASED at *60* mA~
(NOS/Platinum/Ediswan CV2492/6922 in my A12 an B12 Input positions non-Cryo Pair~NOS/Platinum/Telefunken E88CC for Inverter Tubes~NOS RCA 0A3's & New Quad of Tube Depot Stealth/Tung-Sol KT66's)
ZMA adjusted at 30% to 40-60% max ~ from 0 Gain


***************************************************
Kimber Select KS6063 Speaker Cable 8ft WBT-0681-Ag Spades
***************************************************
~ OR ~
Kimber Clear Jacket 8TC Banana Plugs


Acoustic Zen Adagio - Black Pearl (Modified)
.....from 8ohm Taps






Acoustic Zen Adagio's x-over's Modified/Full Range with Mundorf MCap Supremes-single Cap to each Tweeter/4.5k cross
(Gutted: 3kHz/18dB/Octave, Linkwitz/Riley Crossovers....with all crappy parts = gone)


XLO Pro Power Cords to ARC LS17 SE an ZMA
PS Audio P3 Power Plant / Pangea AC-9SE from wall to P3
(Transport, ZDSD an ARC LS17 SE, Regenerated/*120*~ Multiwave off...ZMA on High Current Output)



NOS Platinum Tube Rotations in my ZMA,

(matched pairs/from Upscale Audio/Kevin):

(Germany) Telefunken E88CC ~ 1 pair
(Great Britain) Mullard 7308/E188CC ~  2 pair (both pair Cryogenic)
(US/Great Britain) Ediswan CV2492/6922 ~ 2 pair (one pair Cryogenic)
(Hungary) Tungsram 6922/E88CC ~ 1 pair
(Hungary) Tungsram PCC88/7DJ8 ~ 1 pair
(Russian) Cryoset 6N23N/P-EB ~ 2 pair

I know that thread well. Thus, my rolling eye's.....$2795.00 is fair for the newer version.  We wil read how they pan out....and pan out at Decfest.

Stone, you're right $2800 sounds fair but it IS more than $2500. You'll have to give us a review.  Do you plan on buying a pair?  I love mine.  No shoving going on here....LOL...Mark.

For those of you who have been intimidated by pricing on "legend" tubes, I thought I should post that there are some NOS Mullard E88CC/6922 gold pins on sale at partconnexion just now. For me, they are a go-to place for DIY parts etc, with nice sales and bulk order pricing going regularly. BTW, with tubes there, I think you need to specify if you want matched pairs, and it adds $5.

Speaking of Mullard's Will..... . I'm running Cryogenic E188CC/7308's...matched pair. Man, I love these tubes for inner detail and pure smooth beauty. Using my Telefunken's for phase splitter's. The Tele's will stay as inverter's while I will continue to tube roll the input position with Ediswan's, Tungsram's and the Mullard's.

I sold my ARC Pre! NO PRE's allowed in Listening Room anymore. ZDSD direct to ZMA = period. Kept my KS6063 Speaker cable. Wonderfully sublime with more air around instrument images and better dynamic's are allowed through too. The 6063's inner detail of instruments is all there too. I can't part with them!













Listening Room:


Room Treatments from Michael Green & Home Brew

Sony as Transport (DVP-NS57P)/Sandwich weighted for Isolation

Illuminati D-60 Digital Coax IC

Shunyata Research Ztron Alpha Digital Power Cord to ZDSD
{Extremely Significant}

Decware ZDSD DAC / Recorder
***************************************************************
W/Steve's Output Transformer's/kicking to the curb quite a few superb DAC'S!
***************************************************************
(@ -20 Ref Level, 0.0 Input volume and @ 16/192)


WBT-0102Ag RCA Kimber Select KS1030


Decware Zen Mystery Amplifier
~BIASED at *60* mA~
(NOS/Platinum/Mullard E188CC/7308's in my A12 an B12 Input positions Cryo Pair~NOS/Platinum/Telefunken E88CC for Inverter Tubes~NOS RCA 0A3's & New Quad of Tube Depot Stealth/Tung-Sol KT66's)
ZMA adjusted at 20% to 30-40% max ~ from 0 Gain


***************************************************
Kimber Select KS6063 Speaker Cable 8ft WBT-0681-Ag Spades
***************************************************


Acoustic Zen Adagio - Black Pearl (Modified)
.....from 8ohm Taps






Acoustic Zen Adagio's x-over's Modified/Full Range with Mundorf MCap Supremes-single Cap to each Tweeter/4.5k cross
(Gutted: 3kHz/18dB/Octave, Linkwitz/Riley Crossovers....with all crappy parts = gone)


XLO Pro Power Cord to ZMA
PS Audio P3 Power Plant / Pangea AC-9SE from wall to P3
(Transport and ZDSD, Regenerated/*120*~ Multiwave off...ZMA on High Current Output)



NOS Platinum Tube Rotations in my ZMA,

(matched pairs/from Upscale Audio/Kevin):

(Germany) Telefunken E88CC ~ 1 pair
(Great Britain) Mullard 7308/E188CC ~  2 pair (both pair Cryogenic)
(US/Great Britain) Ediswan CV2492/6922 ~ 2 pair (one pair Cryogenic)
(Hungary) Tungsram 6922/E88CC ~ 1 pair
(Hungary) Tungsram PCC88/7DJ8 ~ 1 pair
(Russian) Cryoset 6N23N/P-EB ~ 2 pair  

I need power tubes - your bump of this thread made me check Tube Depot to see what they have, and I stumbled into this:

https://www.tubedepot.com/products/eat-kt88-diamond-power-vacuum-tube-matched-qu...

I see that JJ has some "Black Sable" 6L6 I've never seen before.

Almost looks like a resurgence of higher end tubes now that NOS seems to be disappearing and/or so expensive.

LR, I can't find per search the thread/post (I can't remember the tube number's). But, Steve mentioned an output quad he was using in the ZMA.  A quad not listed for use I think/but he was using? Do you recall this/read it or seen it. Maybe Steve will mention here.



......I want to add: the Telefunken E88CC's pair, are a LOCK for my Phase Inverter tube positions period. They are so damn clean/neutral and allow each pair of my Input 6922 tubes to shine in there own light....it is mesmerizing. I swear no hyperbole....just joy man.

At that price I'm going to try those. I like Cryoset....have my password right here. I bought a matched quad of 6N23N/P-EB's and rotate a pair in the inputs. Gives me Steve's original signature. Cool.

"LR, I can't find per search the thread/post (I can't remember the tube number's). But, Steve mentioned an output quad he was using in the ZMA.  A quad not listed for use I think/but he was using? Do you recall this/read it or seen it. Maybe Steve will mention here. "

I don't recall seeing that - I'd like to know what they are. I have a used pair of Gold Lion KT-66 as an emergency backup in case my stock KT-66 fail, but they are noticeably tired. Sound passable, but not as dynamic or involving. I find myself turning up the volume more than usual.

"Eric, if you're still looking for tubes, let me recommend these that sound fantastic in the Torii, and I bet would sound equally good in the ZMA. They're only 50 or 60 a matched quad, which is a good price indeed. I was skeptical but good ears here liked these and I tried some and after burn in they are very balanced, detailed but sweet.

http://www.cryoset.com/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=335&osCsid=d9c6f1f7d...."

Those are neat, and the price is right...but 6L6 almost feels like a downgrade compared to KT-66. I'd have to see what Steve says - they could be a good holdover till I can find and afford some nice KT-66.

I'm taking a break from playing with input tubes till I get my power tubes replaced. I don't feel I'm really hearing what's capable. But those $11 tubes mentioned in another thread have my attention.

Lot's to ask Steve about during Zenfest if I can get a few minutes with him. I try not to bother him much during Zenfest since I have much easier access to him than most the rest of the year. Besides, I've learned not to tug on Superman's cape when he's busy.  :)

I'd love to try them! I'll cover your shipping and promise to return them with few hours on them.

Thanks Lon!

Great info guys (Lon, Archie & Eric). Eric, please do.....ask Steve, has he found a premium pair of KT66's worth paying more for?

I feel the same Eric.....is it a downgrade to go to 6L6's or 6CA7's (especially in Power/when I want it)? I'm so enjoying my input tube rotation that manipulates the Tung-Sol reissue KT66's...... .

Eric, are you using the original stock KT66's from Steve (and obviously you don't care for the Lions)? That is my impression/you wrote. I got 22 months out of my quad from Steve. When I noticed a hint of degradation....I got a new fresh quad....now 10 months in.  

I also replaced my stock 0A3's with NOS RCA about 3 months ago.

NOS/Platinum/Ediswan CV2492/6922 in my A12 an B12 Input positions Cryogenic Pair~NOS/Platinum/Telefunken E88CC for Inverter Tubes~NOS RCA 0A3's & New Quad of Tube Depot Stealth/Tung-Sol KT66's

......yeah   , I only had my Tungsram PCC88/7DJ8's in for two days! But, I had the itch to put my Cryo pair of Ediswan's in after having my gold pin Mullard's in for a month (speaking of SWEET input to the KT66's~the Mull's RULE.....had them in for over a month straight). I'm rockin' right now to the Edi's!  
......don't get me wrong: the Tungsram's are very good...they just need more burn in....and I wanted to pound a few tunes today....and the Edi's are the ones for that!

Larry, I do have trouble keeping up with your posts sometimes. LOL

Yes, I'm on my original KT66 - Steve said they were tired when I brought my ZMA in for a repair last year when a vintage Pre-amp Tube popped taking some resistors out with it. I've not used my ZMA as much this year as I did last year, but they are the same tubes.

The Gold Lion KT66 I picked up (used but good quad) are OK. I got them cheap because they were well used, but to my ear they just didn't have as much dynamic punch as the stock T-S.  I should probably swap them in again and see how they fair when compared to really tired Tung-Sol.

Either way, preamp and inverter tubes have Wow'd me when swapping, while the KT66 are either Good or OK, nothing's really wow'd me yet on the power tube side. That could just be how this amp is - especially with the big caps helping with dynamics. It's part of why I've been focusing on room acoustics again. The ZMA is consistently good, and so is my DirectStream, so I can focus on other stuff.

Cryogenic NOS Platinum Mullard 7308/E188CC's back in my ZMA inputs.
The inner timbre and overall sweetness of presentation with dynamic's when called upon.....is my Tube.

Hope to read soon LR, about the 6L6's Lon sent you........... .

I figured that's what you mean. I'm eager to hear them myself. Now that I think about it, I might need to ask Steve where to dial them in on the Bias Adjustment - then fine tune by ear.

I still have some diffuser builds in the works - little by little trying to make my listening space better.

"I find on the ZMA, preamp tubes have a bigger impact than swapping power tubes. At least with the KT-66 tubes I've tested in my amp (not really anything rare, expensive, or exotic)".

.....I agree LR. (You mentioned the above in the Shuguang 6H1N Thread).

Also, KT66 has higher filament draw than a 6L6 or 6CA7, and can handle more power. In audio application, KT66 are smoother sounding with great texture.

Non-the-less, I still want to hear your impressions of the 6CA7's. I should just order a quad of the Cryoset coin based Cryogenic 6L6's and the Cryogenic JJ 6CA7's you're trying out. However, I think my money would be better spent on adding to my collection of the best NOS 6922 tube types.

But anyway, still pick Steve's brains too, about the best KT66's he has tried. For example: GEC, Sylvania's, VT-79 KT8C and of course RCA's....if he has tried?

Oh, cool on the one's you sent him. Very good to read about those/when LR posts (since we have ZMA's). Archie has a ZMA too/with the other 6L6's.....you suggested and he loves them. So, I think you're right Lon....they have a good shot of being different and musical and to our tastes in the ZMA......(all mentioned in the last page or two).

Not to contradict what I wrote (my above post/#193).....but, yes, I want to try some different power output tubes with my stash of input and phase inverter's.

Including the one's you're mentioning, ....I'm thinking about going for these treasures:
http://www.thetubestore.com/Tubes/KT66-Tube-Types/Shuguang-Treasure-KT66-Z

Yeah, I'm staying away from them. To expensive. Especially, when I have had success with NOS 6922 tube types and the Tung-Sol KT66's and could just stay pat and be content.

Curiousness and affordability of ~ I'm going to go ahead and order the 6P3S-E / 6L6's from Cryoset....like I said I was thinking of doing a few days back. Your recommendation, Archie's and I hope Eric digs them too. I need to try them for myself anyway.

I figure these 6P3S-E and a good affordable quad of EL34's, or the 6CA7 JJ's Cryogenic from Cryoset.    My curiousness should be satisfied and I might be surprised (with different combo's of my 6922 tube types)!

I got home from a road trip for work and found this little box from Lon (thanks my friend). Popped the tubes in, and since I wasn't sure where to bias them I decided to start on the low side till I heard from Steve. So I dialed them in at 45ma and gave them a listen.

Right off the bat I didn't like them all - I was listening to my music collection through ROON -> Bridge II, DS DAC, Balanced to ZMA to MG944.  I was using the ROON "Discover" feature where it selects stuff for you and I picked some CD quality Folk/Rock/Americana - I was flipping through tunes figuring maybe it was just a few albums that were recorded poorly as they all sounded detailed, but a little strained.

Then about 20 minutes into this clicking through tunes, suddenly the sound started to bloom - I guess the tubes and amp just needed to warm up a bit. I've never really paid close attention to what the Hazen mod is supposed to do, but I could clearly hear lots of micro-detail in the midrange, holographically so. The bass wasn't exciting in any way, and I seemed to have lost some of my treble extension I love so much.  The upper mids sounded a bit strident still after the tubes warmed up, and I was being called to dinner, so I powered everything off and figured I'd give them another try once Steve suggests a safe bias point. Since these aren't my tubes I don't want to experiment too much with bias, but I know Steve tries to dial in the bias on these amps to be in a generally safe range so it's unlikely to accidentally damage tubes.  Still, I'd rather be safe with someone elses stuff.

Hopefully when I get them dialed in better I'll get a little more bloom and dynamics. One thing for sure, it made me realize how tired my KT66 are, and I think I'm already seeing why people love this Hazen Grid mod.

I'll post a follow up after I hear from Steve and get more time on these tubes.