Great to read Palomino. My same take on them in all aspects, as you mentioned.

When I want tighter, or a subjectively perceived lower bass....I go with my Ediswan pair from CSP3/outputs to Ediswan pair ZMA/inputs. The Edi's are no midrange slouch either, but the Mull's offer more detailed liguidity ....is so, so right! The Mullard bass is fuller, spot on. The bass with the Edi's and Mull's has definition and delineation. Owed to the tubes, Decware and room treatment to get it all right.

Yes, for me too, the way I have my Adagio's capped and crossed...discerning the difference between tubes is easy. I rarely have any stridency, with these driver's in the Adagio's and Tweeter's. Unless I grab some very early digital from my collection, circa 1983 to 1993..... .

My Tungsram's to Tungsram's, I'm still figuring out...they are not in right now.....no surprise the Mullard's are in. The Tung's might be a little more extended in the highs and are trying to do it all (Edi and Mull) combo it seems. Time will tell, when I get them back in. I like the Tung's very much.... .

I have a nice 3 double pair rotation (CSP3/outputs & ZMA/inputs): Edi's, Mull's and Tung's with my Telefunken CSP3 input tube. I even witnessed Mull's to Edi's....I need to witness that combo again. Keeping Mull's to Mull's, Edi' to Edi's or Tungsram's to Tungsram's.....seems the way to go though.

I hear you about the wife (haa)!  I will keep a lookout for any suspicious packages. I told my girlfriend this is it! I can't afford anymore. I'm just going to enjoy!  New NOS Platinum's = 7500 hours plus per pair....worth every penny!






Listening Room:


Room Treatments from Michael Green & Home Brew

Sony as Transport (DVP-NS57P)/Sandwich weighted for Isolation

Illuminati D-60 Digital Coax IC

Shunyata Research Ztron Alpha Digital Power Cord to ZDSD
{Extremely Significant}

Decware ZDSD DAC / Recorder
***************************************************************
W/Steve's Output Transformer's/kicking to the curb quite a few superb DAC'S!
***************************************************************
(@ -20 Ref Level, 0.0 Input volume and @ 16/192)

WBT-0102Ag RCA Kimber Select KS1030

Decware CSP3 w/Jupiter Caps
(NOS/Platinum/Telefunken 6922/E88CC for Input Tube~NOS/Platinum/E188CC 7308 Cryogenic Mullard's for Output Tubes & 5U4G-C Rectifier)
****************************************************
10 of 10 for Input tube & *9* of 10 voltage for Output tubes
Volume adjustment usage at 25% to 55% from 0
****************************************************

WBT-0102Ag RCA Kimber Select KS1030

Decware Zen Mystery Amplifier
~BIASED at *60* mA~
(NOS/Platinum/E188CC 7308 Cryogenic Mullard's in my A12 an B12 positions~Cryoset 6H23N-EB's for Inverter Tubes~JAN Sylvania 0A3's & New Quad of Tube Depot Stealth/Tung-Sol KT66's)
ZMA adjusted at 20%, 25 to 30% max, from 0
Some Tube inputs, 40 to 45% max, from 0


***************************************************
Kimber Select KS6063 Speaker Cable 8ft WBT-0681-Ag Spades
***************************************************

Acoustic Zen Adagio - Black Pearl (Modified)
.....from 8ohm Taps




Acoustic Zen Adagio's x-over's Modified/Full Range with Mundorf MCap Supremes-single Cap to each Tweeter/4.5k cross
(Gutted: 3kHz/18dB/Octave, Linkwitz/Riley Crossovers....with all crappy parts = gone)


XLO Pro Power Cords to CSP3 an ZMA
PS Audio P3 Power Plant / Pangea AC-9SE from wall to P3
(Transport, ZDSD an CSP3, Regenerated/*122*~ Multiwave off...ZMA on High Current Output)
***************************************************************************

NOS/Platinum/E188CC 7308 Cryogenic Mullard's / CSP3 Outputs

~ to ~

NOS/Platinum/CV2492/6922 Ediswan's / ZMA Inputs

.........nough' said.

I keep going back to running the DirectStream directly into the Torii. . . the CSP2+ is great for the ZP3 and for my universal player, but less is more for the digital source. . . . Won't part with my CSP2+ (well, I have three of them and a CSP2, will probably part with a few!) but really enjoy the "direct" approach for Redbook and my DVR.

Absolutely, it's nice to have both options, but I've been mentioning this last year and this year: I prefer straight in and if my Torii had three instead of two inputs I would probably use those three and the preamp would be in a closet. It's a credit to the best sources and to Steve that these amps don't need a preamp for their use. Lesser sources. . . yeah, the CSP series of preamps really can help.

My only want is the next version of the PerfectWave Transport that PS Audio will introduce later this year. It will allow me to play SACD and Blu-Ray Audio discs through the DirectStream, which is I think the only real improvement I can expect in my system. Not sure if I can swing the cost this year (they will allow a trade in and I have two of the PWTs so can send one in). . . we'll see, will have to sell some things, but that's my one audio want beyond more and more LPs and Cds and SACDs.

I've been a forum member since '97 or '98. At one point after the forum change I accidentally deleted my profile and lost like 3000 posts.  Yes, I know you ran for quite some time without the preamp both with the previous amp and the ZMA at first correct? I used to use a Select without a preamp. . . only went to the CSP2 when I got the EL34 Monoblocks I ran for some time before the Integrated and then the Torii Mk II and then Mk IIIs. If I didn't need that third source I could be quite happy without my CSP2+. . . but since I do and will need that third source for this system I keep working on making the CSP2+ be what it can be. . . it's a very versatile machine, if you have to have a pre, one of Steve's is the one to have.

Stone, I am starting to think maybe the Mullards are a bit warm sounding.  I can do some tweaks to adjust.  Not sure I want to roll to something else and lose the liquidity.

I can tweek a bit with the Torii III.

I flipped the bias switch and it was already better, but I didn't lose the liquidity.  I can also tweak the treble shunt and go back to the 274Bs.  Bass sounded a little loose this morning, but I can tweak there as well.

I think these tubes are worth building around.  Already considering another set, but I think they are rated for like 10K hours or something crazy.

I am going to put the '74 6n23p's tubes back in for a comparo this weekend if I get a chance.  Oh, and my replacement '75 SWG Silver Shield is on its way from the Russian dealer who made good on his promise to replace the DOA tube.  It just took a while for him to find a matched tube.  The '75s are fairly rare.

The single wire 6n23ps and the Mullards are my first foray into >$100 tubes.  

Well worth it in my mind even though it took me some time to pull the trigger.  Having the best year I've had since the downturn and making my last college tuition payment (for now) helped me try them.

Like Will said Pal, give them time to burn in an settle in. Don't go over tweak yet.

Dave, cool, I have a pair of the Tungsram PCC88's too. I could not resist, I put my Tungsram NOS Plat' 6922's (ZMA Inputs) in this morning from Kevin. Great stuff from Hungary mid 70's. I did put 30 hours on them in my CSP3 Outputs....they are shaping up nice.....in Inputs/ZMA.

.....I'll get to my Tung' PCC88's in a few weeks......... .

The main thing in this tube rolling, I guess I'm stating the obvious, but....enjoy the differences in your Tube Pairs!

.....My Tung's are not my Telefunken's, which are not my Ediswan's ....which are not my Mullard's.     ENJOY!

ive wondered about those tungsrams...  like them huh

Ahhhh, CSP3 back in baby!  I missed her!

The dynamic muscle that this UL ZMA needs....the CSP3 deliver's. I don't care if you're running balanced from your DAC/direct....I'm walking all over that anemia with my set up........ .

YMMV (to maintain transparency/resolution), for your wires, tubes, acoustic room treatment and absence of the Shunyata Zitron Alpha Digital power cord   ....... .

This weekends Tube Entre':
I'm running 3, NOS/Platinum/E188CC 7308 Cryogenic Mullard's in my CSP3.....with my pair of NOS/Platinum/Telefunken 6922/E88CC's for inputs of ZMA.  .....rest of see below.

The Friday afternoon party has commenced!!!

This Tube compliment is all soooooooo gooooood!






Listening Room:


Room Treatments from Michael Green & Home Brew

Sony as Transport (DVP-NS57P)/Sandwich weighted for Isolation

Illuminati D-60 Digital Coax IC

Shunyata Research Ztron Alpha Digital Power Cord to ZDSD
{Extremely Significant}

Decware ZDSD DAC / Recorder
***************************************************************
W/Steve's Output Transformer's/kicking to the curb quite a few superb DAC'S!
***************************************************************
(@ -20 Ref Level, 0.0 Input volume and @ 16/192)

WBT-0102Ag RCA Kimber Select KS1030

Decware CSP3 w/Jupiter Caps
(NOS/Platinum/Telefunken 6922/E88CC for Input Tube~NOS/Platinum/E188CC 7308 Cryogenic Mullard's for Output Tubes & 5U4G-C Rectifier)
****************************************************
10 of 10 for Input tube & *9* of 10 voltage for Output tubes
Volume adjustment usage at 25% to 55% from 0
****************************************************

WBT-0102Ag RCA Kimber Select KS1030

Decware Zen Mystery Amplifier
~BIASED at *60* mA~
(NOS/Platinum/E188CC 7308 Cryogenic Mullard's in my A12 an B12 positions~Russian Cryoset 6H23N/P-EB's for Inverter Tubes~JAN Sylvania 0A3's & New Quad of Tube Depot Stealth/Tung-Sol KT66's)
ZMA adjusted at 20%, 25 to 30% max, from 0


***************************************************
Kimber Select KS6063 Speaker Cable 8ft WBT-0681-Ag Spades
***************************************************

Acoustic Zen Adagio - Black Pearl (Modified)
.....from 8ohm Taps




Acoustic Zen Adagio's x-over's Modified/Full Range with Mundorf MCap Supremes-single Cap to each Tweeter/4.5k cross
(Gutted: 3kHz/18dB/Octave, Linkwitz/Riley Crossovers....with all crappy parts = gone)


XLO Pro Power Cords to CSP3 an ZMA
PS Audio P3 Power Plant / Pangea AC-9SE from wall to P3
(Transport, ZDSD an CSP3, Regenerated/*122*~ Multiwave off...ZMA on High Current Output)
****************************************************************************

No one can argue a ZP3 for Vinyl....I would bet.

Ditto on that.

Rob and I got together at his place on Sunday for a mini-CDApS meeting.  Mostly to hear his Gungnir multi-bit upgrade.  But we ended up doing a little tube swapping.

We listened to his 6n1ps (standard Zen issue), my mallards and the 74 silver shield single wire 6n23ps.  To cut to the chase, the 6n23ps clearly sounded the best on his system.  The music cam alive.  The mallards were too dark and the 6n1ps were too slow.

So as you guys know, its a synergy thing with the whole system.

I came home and stuck the 6n23ps in and they sounded good, but bright to me.  Then I went back to the mullards and it was just right.

Rob continues to make strides on his system.  I really think the 6n23ps really made it shine.  It was hard for me to tell the impact of the Gungnir, with all the tube swapping but I did hear things I never heard before and his soundstage was significantly better no matter which tube we had in.

He sent me home with his DAC but I can't seem to get it to work with my SDIF converter.  Don't know what's up with that, but I'm bummed that I am not getting the in home demo I hoped for.

Anyway CDApS rules.  We never fail to make another discovery.

Yes, the Mullard E188CC's are great. The Mat National's NO. Fortunately, I've had good luck with my Mull's to Mull's, Mull's to Ediswan's, Ediswan's to Ediswan's and last but not least-Tungsram 6922's from my CSP3 to Tungsram PCC88's-ZMA Inputs.

I backed up the Mull's and the Edi's with another pair each so I can run them as describes above, .....plus I have two Telefunken's.....the best tube ever in my Input CSP3 position. Simply spectacular.

I'm done buying NOS Tubes. Have all I need; Kevin does not have any others I want.

Running CSP3 Mull's to ZMA Ediswan's.....right now. Liquid-liquid-liquid. The Mull E188CC synergy with the Amer/Brit Ediswan's is no joke or surprise.

Nothing wrong with Mallard's   .

Oh yeah, this tube compliment or that one?! I try not to let it drive me nuts. Especially, since I'm running a Pre too.

I find the Mullard's to be best with my CSP3 out of the chain and having the Mull's in the Inputs/ZMA only. However, I love my CSP3 and Mull's to Mull's or Edi's to Edi's are awesome. Right now running Tungsram 6922 out of CSP3 to Ediswan's input ZMA.....just perfect in density and detail. ..........Tone, Tone and more Tone.

Seriously considering the Wyred 4 Sound STP-SE....so I can stick with just running my 6922 NOS tube collection in my ZMA! Most notably too, I want volume and balance control also....via REMOTE!


http://6moons.com/audioreviews/wyred2/preamp.html

"Alas, the STP is far from just another preamplifier......

....plugged in very much describes the intensity of energy transmission at work here. It's a function of speed and color. Usually 'fast' and 'saturated' are core qualities with a number of associated attributes which conflict. They tend to refuse to go hand in hand. The audiophile becomes perennially involved with strategically voicing between components for just the right overall balance. Tone versus speed. Transparency versus density. Here the ideal balance seems built in. It's really quite the wicked combination."

https://wyred4sound.com/products/pre-amps/stp-se

Its been in production for 7 years....the Standard SE version is what was used (see Manufacturer's comment at the end of the 6 Moons read). The Standard SE version is all that is needed. We all don't like 10% restocking fee's (+ shipping to and from). However, I'm compelled to have this STP-SE in my Listening Room, driving my ZMA.

Input impedance of the ZMA is okay. But, Maximum Output Voltage: 9V RMS....for the STP....not good. Oh well.

Ah yes! E188CC NOS Platinum Cryogenic Mullard's back in my CSP3 outputs with Telefunken input. Feeding Ediswan pair for ZMA inputs....does not get any better!

Hey, I have a NAD M51, coming in to challenge my ZDSD for Red Book play. The best way for me to get Volume/gain control from my Listening Chair. Supposedly, without truncating bits.

I'm also intrigued to play some Blu-ray Audio with it. I like a dozen Titles from elusivedisc.

I will eventually, try running it direct to my ZMA. However, my NOS 6922 tubes I run out of my CSP3 an into my ZMA, can't be beat for me. Plus, my gain structures: ZMA at 25% up from 0 volume, with CSP3 at 45% up from 0 volume....allowing me to attenuate with the M51....should be heaven.

However, the ZDSD's output stage Steve designed, is going to be hard to beat.

The M51 comes today. Let the Games begin (RIO)! Umm, ah, I mean NAD and ZDSD output stage challenge!  

Stone,

The M51 is a great DAC. I had one a few years ago. My memory is not good enough to say how it stacks up against the ZDSD which I also have. You could easily add Steve's output stage by using a Zbit and using the balanced outputs of the M51. I have had good results with the Zbit and various combinations of gear.

No worries about the M51. She has seasoned in at about 38 to 42 hours now. I'm loving the output stage. Running her as described a couple of posts above. She is a keeper and I have volume control straight thru my CSP3 voltage gain! Just simply awesome tone, sound stage and imaging!

The ZDSD is her equal with Steve's output stage. I could live with her for good. However, I adjust volume gain just enough here and there, that the M51/wins the tie breaker.

@ stone - or just get the ZTPRE with volume control and be done with it!

8TC is a great neutral musical cable. However, the KS6063, better's the TC in every way. 6063 is back in the Listening Room. 8TC is great in my Rig downstairs~love it. But, the ZMA is the Amp that shows the 6063's live performance qualities/even truer of timbre with liquidity. 8TC is pretty damn true....but not in the league of the KS6063.

I'm really locked in to Mullard's (CSP3 outputs) to Ediswan's (ZMA inputs) too.
......Then, Edi's to Edi's.....probably is a tie.

I took the Pangea out of my System. It was running from the wall to my P3. Improvement now, with this dark sounding Pcord out. However, I need to ABA it some more..... .

I live in Phoenix and we are lovin' the heat.

NOS Platinum Ediswan's back in for ZMA Input Tubes. Simply put....just a musical cornucopia.

ARC LS17 SE.....continues to break in and is just sublime with the ZMA, with a control and dimensionality, not had alone with the ZMA. All the transparency is there now too.....the LS17 has delivered!

Furthermore, my 6063's are over on A-gon. I've been rotating the 8TC in the last couple of months....... .
Kimber 8TC, New clear jacket ~ 5 ft. Pair/Banana Plugs.
(The detail/imaging/definition and soundstage with the KS1030 IC's, 8TC and the addition of the LS17 SE Pre ~ bests the 6063).



Listening till noon....then outside....to nice to be in. Drive down the St. Croix River/Mississippi, this afternoon and dinner in Hastings.








Listening Room:


Room Treatments from Michael Green & Home Brew

Sony as Transport (DVP-NS57P)/Sandwich weighted for Isolation

Illuminati D-60 Digital Coax IC

Shunyata Research Ztron Alpha Digital Power Cord to ZDSD
{Extremely Significant}

Decware ZDSD DAC / Recorder
***************************************************************
W/Steve's Output Transformer's/kicking to the curb quite a few superb DAC'S!
***************************************************************
(@ -20 Ref Level, 0.0 Input volume and @ 16/192)


WBT-0102Ag RCA Kimber Select KS1030


***Audio Research LS17 SE Preamplifier*** ~ w/stock 6H30's

.....will upgrade to: DR
http://www.thetubestore.com/Tubes/6H30-Tube-Types/Russian-6H30P-DR


WBT-0102Ag RCA Kimber Select KS1030


Decware Zen Mystery Amplifier
~BIASED at *60* mA~
(NOS/Platinum/Ediswan CV2492/6922 in my A12 an B12 positions~NOS Russian Cryoset 6N23N/P-EB for Inverter Tubes~NOS RCA 0A3's & New Quad of Tube Depot Stealth/Tung-Sol KT66's)
ZMA adjusted at 50 to 60% ~ from 0 Gain/with ARC LS17 SE


Kimber 8TC, New clear jacket ~ 5 ft. Pair/Banana Plugs
(The detail/imaging/definition and soundstage with the KS1030 IC's, 8TC and the addition of the LS17 SE Pre ~ bests the 6063)


Acoustic Zen Adagio - Black Pearl (Modified)
.....from 8ohm Taps





Acoustic Zen Adagio's x-over's Modified/Full Range with Mundorf MCap Supremes-single Cap to each Tweeter/4.5k cross
(Gutted: 3kHz/18dB/Octave, Linkwitz/Riley Crossovers....with all crappy parts = gone)


XLO Pro Power Cords to ARC LS17 SE an ZMA
PS Audio P3 Power Plant / Pangea AC-9SE from wall to P3
(Transport, ZDSD an ARC LS17 SE, Regenerated/*120*~ Multiwave off...ZMA on High Current Output)



NOS Platinum Tube Rotations in my ZMA,

(matched pairs/from Upscale Audio/Kevin):

(Germany) Telefunken E88CC ~ 1 pair
(Great Britain) Mullard 7308/E188CC ~  2 pair (both pair Cryogenic)
(US/Great Britain) Ediswan CV2492/6922 ~ 2 pair (one pair Cryogenic)
(Hungary) Tungsram 6922/E88CC ~ 1 pair
(Hungary) Tungsram PCC88/7DJ8 ~ 1 pair
(Russian) Cryoset 6N23N/P-EB ~ 2 pair