Okay. I'll stop reading this forum now while I still can. I'm so tired of the merry go round, and I haven't had luck with Steve's front ends before or what he thinks is a great source so I may pretend I have never heard of the ZDSD. LOL

At the pace you have me going, my room is not that far away

Looking forward to tonight.  I am going to try to get off early enough to make it there close to opening ceremony time.   Ideally we'd lay down a baseline with the zen, then go to the Torii and end with the ZMA.   Like a wine tasting.

I think Rob's interest in the Torii is primarily in the treble shunt so going out of order would not be crime.

Are you still bringing ravens rolling diffuser lab?  I can bring my qrd's if my wife gets home on time.

If I get more ambitious, I will bring the PPP.  I think Rob should hear his zen on one of these regenerators.

Palo - Lraven,  I'm digging this forum. Please keep the info flowing. It'll be interesting to hear about tonites listen/impressions...experiments Mwahhahahaaaa.

Power is a weird thing. You think you've got all this killer gear, all hooked up how you like it...and you find some piece in the mix is throwing noise at the other devices, or a weird ground loop or something.

That's why I worked so hard running Zen Styx style wire through my walls, home run back to the panel via conduit. And why I got this spool of wire to add a few more circuits for my Home Theater setup. On top of the P10 and Solo outlet and all that...The only thing I think I can do better right now, is hire an electrician to add extra ground rods to the house, further lowering the resistance to ground and giving any line noise an easy place to go!

Well, there are other things I can do, but I don't have $5k-$10k for whole house balance power.  :)

Guys,

I realize this might be slightly off topic, but I have been doing a bit of experimentation with my room treatments.  I have come to the conclusion that diffusion works better for me at the first reflection point (vs. absorption).  It's significant.  I get a wall of sound, better depth, clarity and imaging with diffusion.   I currently have absorbtion at the second reflection points, but I wonder if the soundstage would be even better with diffusion.  

Thanks for pushing me to do this experiment again.

Thanks Palomino!  I think that's a nice summary, particularly the bit about the dead frog

I expected Pal and Raven to hear some of the improvements that I heard.  What I didn't expect was the reaction to be as high and positive in degree.  Both Tom and Eric heard a difference before they even got down the stairs, which says something.  I bet these two employ similar tricks when deciding which room to go into at AXPONA.

We played some of Eric's test tracks and even I was surprised at what I heard.  Tom called it layering, but at the time I didn't know what term to apply.  Breathtaking probably would've been my word.  I'll echo Tom's comments above and say that there were some moments of prolific bass that made me giggle like a schoolgirl.  

The Zen clearly has some strengths in my system that the ZMA didn't quite show.  The Zen seemed to dance more gracefully and treated the music so delicately that it seemingly left no trace of its own existence.  Music just flows.  That doesn't mean that I don't appreciate what the impressive ZMA can do.  The first thing that comes to mind when trying to describe the ZMA is Power.  The dynamic capability is on another level completely, but I could "hear" the ZMA, meaning it doesn't have the SET qualities I described above.  I guess this shouldn't really be surprising.  However, I am a rock/metal listener and honestly this amp would please.  If I had to choose between the two amps, I wouldn't.  I would buy them both.  

We all wondered at the end of the night what level the UFO upgrade would take this amp.  It's just a matter of time before I pull the trigger on that.

That's it for now, I'll let Raven weigh in next.

Dave1210 said:

Quote:


Eric was kind enough to leave me his traveling diffuser lab.  I'll be trying this out too, Dave.  I'll PM you with impressions when I can.

Interesting. Last time I compared my amp and my DAC on my PS Audio P5 and plugged directly into a wall. . . I put them both back on the P5 which had clearly superior sound. All systems and rooms and power situations seem to be different!

Yeah I have to agree with Rob on the PPP.  Not a big difference. A little fuller bass is what I heard.  I was expecting more given the lift I got with Rachael.   It could be that my power is just that bad.

My system is sounding a little better this morning than last night when I got back from Robs.  For a while last night I was feeling a deep depression coming on.   Must have been because I unplugged my digital gear.  Yeah that's it

Oh I know, when I do this I always do it in the evening and go to bed, and usually don't get to listen til the afternoon of the next day when my care activities with my Dad are over. So I'm not comparing cold digital. . . Last time I even did it for a few days because I was including the DAC and digital takes a few days to be all it can be after unplugging in my experience.

I wish I could do without the power plants but I can't after knowing and hearing what they do. Like Pal I suppose I've had bad power (but shouldn't really in comparison to my last home).

Sorry I'm posting so late - had some domestic issues to deal with when I got home last night. I didn't want to bring that mood into my posting here. LOL

So, this is quickly becoming my favorite thread on the Decware forums...mostly because it's all about us CDApS guys, but also because it shows the exuberance, lessons, and in this case humbling we go through.

It's funny we were talking about hubris last night, because I was totally expecting to go over there with the ZMA and crush Rob's world. The phrase that Steve taught me (back when he was showing me what reel to reel master tapes sound like on the ZMA) is "Audio-Ruination". I love that word, and I expected that to be what the ZMA was going to do to Rob - I fully expected him to be clamoring to buy a ZMA before we left there, and I even told Steve as much when I picked it up from the shop on Tuesday. Instead, what Palomino said happened.

When I showed up, with the car stuffed full of gear, we started pulling stuff down the stairs and into the staging area (kids play room) behind the listening room. Like Tom said, I wasn't even all the way down the stairs and I *knew* this was a different system. I recognized the Buckethead tunes right away, and they sounded luscious, glassy, and with no hint of sibilance that we heard last visit. And here I am carrying down these giant boxes of diffusers trying to crane my neck around the box going "what the hell" in my head.

Fast Forward to our serious listening, we'd already heard several of Rob's queued up tracks, and we dumped my standard Demo Tracks on his JRiver setup (Same ones I played at Decfest 2014 for everyone), and the previous visit was pretty much forgotten. 98% gone was the sibilance we heard before, the flatness and lack of dynamics. Rob loves guitar tracks as I do myself, and both Tin Pan Alley and Keith Don't Go has that sharp leading edge of a skillfully plucked string, and SRV's tube amp sound was glassy and warm like it was supposed to be. Everything had warmth and emotion, that synergy that Rob expected when he carefully picked this mix of equipment was absolutely there.

Then I played Alt-J and Interlude I came on. Three male voices, rich with natural human harmonics covering a good range of sound - and the layering of those voices was stunning. I look over at Palomino like "are you hearing this!" and he had the same WTF look on his face I'm sure I had. After listening I say - so Rob, how much did you pay for this upgrade? For a half second he looked confused, then this big grin formed on his face and he says  "Nothing". Yeah, that's the best price.

This was a stunning transformation of the system. I must have asked him 3 times what he did, because I was having trouble beliving that moving the speakers 4", the couch 1", and plugging the DAC into the wall could clear up this nasty sibilance and improve dynamics *this* much. It was such a difference that we were just fishing for the "why", and Rob's like...well, I did use contact cleaner on my terminals just before you guys got here last time...

I was all set to tell him to ditch those giant speakers, or get an amp with a little more guts. But the end result was that I just simply said don't change a damn thing with your gear...just pile in the room treatments, and see what you can do with that.

On the flip side, Rob was grinning like a kid when the ZMA showed what it could do, especially after it warmed up a bit. But Palo and I were just shaking our heads; NO, don't change anything! I'm not really sure Rob fully realized what he had till he saw how stunned we were.

That Zen can still hold it's own after all these years. I fully went in there expecting to help Steve sell a ZMA, but instead I'm telling Rob "hey, imagine what this would sound like with those new UFO transformers?!". I really think with the new UFO transformers, and some sound diffusers in the room, Rob's setup will surpass both my setup and Tom's in all but grunt.

Audio-Ruination happened, but it happened to us instead of Rob! LOL


The saving grace for the ZMA; we were running out of time, the family got back from doing family things, and Rob said we had to think about packing up really soon. But he made the mistake of leaving us alone for 3 minutes - so we quickly deployed the MG944 on the outside of this giant OB, rather close to the wall, but on the same plane as the OB, plugged into the ZMA which was still on Rob's front end - and the sound was *there*. I breathed a sigh of relief - the punch, dynamics, detail. Hell, the ZMA/944 combo actually sounded better in Rob's room then my own! I bounced through about a dozen tracks in 5 minutes, just to quickly sample the gamut, and it was all there. That probably saved me from committing hara-kiri when I got home.  ;D

So, Rob's system has detail, emotion, and layering. But still falls short when a track gets really dynamic and the Zen just loses steam. The sibilance is gone, dynmaics and attack are what we expect. I'm still scratching my head at how such slight changes can make such a big difference. I've not heard a Zen amp sound this good since Steve's heavily treated room back in '98. I think Rob lost a little imaging with the speaker move, but I'm betting he can dial that in with some toe-in and diffusers. I almost didn't notice with the other stunning changes going on.

ZMA had grip, grunt, and that rich harmonic sound that makes you want to turn it up - but it just didn't have the synergy with the big OB like it does with the MG944. Rob was certainly pleased with the ZMA, but I wasn't! LOL It's making me re-evaluate the ZMA to see if there is something I can do to get it closer to the CKCS sound. Maybe tube rolling or something...or maybe it's just that inherent difference of SET design; the purity of SET coming through...that same sound that brought me to Decware almost 20 years ago, and not something I can simply tube roll into the ZMA. It pains me to think that this difference will be even wider once those new transformers are put in Rob's CKCS!

Again I say good job Steve on building great amps. And Great job Rob for planning such synergy of gear, and not giving up after our first visit. These small tweaks certainly were worth the cost!

Right about now, the only thing I feel like I have over you two is I can go louder....oh, and I have a bigger dog.  :P

L.R. , What are you trying to get made in plastic?
I would think that someone around you would have a 3D printer that could print up what you need.
I might, maybe, be able to slip it into our's, but I would need at least a print or a CAD file to do it.
We can print up to 10"X 10"X12".

L.R., A couple of dozen falls into a real bad price zone. Enough that prototyping methods are too high and making a injection mold hard tool is even higher.
I've been reading about 3D printing injection molds for 100 hit tools, but even then it is going to cost $5-10K.
Maybe someone in Schamburg or Elk Grove can make tooling cheaper than I'm thinking. There are a lot of shops around that area.

Help me out Raven/Rob if you see something missing or we are not in agreement...

Lessons learned from the past two CDApS meetings:

1. Diffusers have an impact - even with OB speakers.  They widen the soundstage noticeably.

2. You can tune a room and a system with diffusers.  My wooden QRD13s affected more midrange.  Erics Styrofoam ones had more impact on treble.  Diffuser rolling anyone?

3. There was little difference between power regeneration and power conditioning (at least for the units we tested).

4. You can achieve blissful listening with the smallest amp in the Decware lineup so long as you have a decent source and the right speaker combination.

6. Although we knew this going in, we demonstrated that SET has transparency that the larger amps do not.  What you choose is a balancing act based on your listening preferences.

5. Small changes can add up to big differences.  Moving speakers and/or changing power source can literally transform a system.  Continued, structured tweaking can have its pitfalls, but it can also result in better sound.

6. There is some freaking awesome recordings out there (even an old guy can appreciate).

I have a few questions.

1. What are your impressions of my soundstage? (I won't bias you ahead of time)

2. How do you feel the transparency of the Torii MKIII with Jupiters compares to that of the Zen?  In other words, what do you think I am giving up for the sake of volume and dynamics?

3. Do you hear big differences in balanced (your system) versus unbalanced (mine)?

4. What are your impressions of the bass clarity and overall level in my room?

5.  I'd like to also get Raven's (and your) impressions of the new fractal diffusers I bought.  Raven hopefully has a memory of what his diffusers sounded like in my room.  Mine is going to be a 6' by 4" stepped array across the back wall.

6. What do you think of the El Caminos?

You guys may have other stuff you want to do, but this is my agenda.

We could do a Saturday or maybe go a little later given that I don't have the younger kids like you do.

Yeah, I know.  Bri said "sure, take that ZMA out of the living room.  And while your at it, take that big DAC thing as well."

ProggRob....

want SET "illuminated from within" sound with more power?  Read Steve's white paper on the Torii.  As long as you use tubes that utilize the Hazen grid circuitry in the Torii... it will have that vivid mids SET sound.  Want to be less vivid?  Replace the EL34's for some tubes that won't engage the Hazen mod.... and the Torii will be less vivid... that is one of the greatest attributes of the Torii - I have been able to make it sound virtually any way I want and can dial it in with nearly every speaker I've tried it with.

Guys, you're killing me! First, there was the untouchable ZMA, then, the Rachael was replaced by a Torii MK III, then there's this ZMA won't compete against the Super Zen sound again ... so what is it, SET power or watt power, other things being equal? What are really the tradeoffs?

When I started my adventure with Decware, some 3 years ago, I made the question: Surely a SET or SEP would have strict sound/transparency advantages as compared to a PP design like the Torii? People at the time jumped over stating Decware designs are not subdued by this classical view, as the PP is designed to sound like the SET but with more guts ...! or something like that.

Finally, I have a Mini Torii (SEP), with somewhat more complicated topology than, say, a Rachael due to the additional regulation tubes in the signal path, plus the beamy sound of a tetrode/pentode like the 6V6 being different from the EL34 in the Rachael or the EL84 in the Super Zen. I admit the Mini Torii is the only Decware amp I've heard, so bear with me, but, I find it quite transparent, with a rich and peppy sound. It just lacks the oomph of a larger amp, that's all.

Just sayin'

Oh and zen trumps Rachael in speed and transparency. Slight edge to Rachael on power and dynamics.

I have never heard the mini Torii.

I'm sure those would be great...haven't heard them.  But I run the Zu Audio Soul speakers with my 2.3 WPC Zen Signature Monoblocks.  They are 99 dB and 8 ohm and are my favorite with the small Zen. There's plenty of headroom. They have a 60 day trial period...try either, you'll like them, but if you don't, they pick them up and give your money back.

I also have Omega Alinco Super 7XRS speakers at 93 dB and 8 ohms that work well with the small amps but the Souls are my favorite. Mark.

http://www.zuaudio.com/loudspeakers/soul

Palomino,  I think Zu does seem to Market to the Rock crowd but if you speak to Sean Casey, the founder and President of Zu Audio or read some of the write ups on the site, you'll find that they strive to get vocal reproduction right. Having listened to my Zu Souls for about two years, I can assure you they play all music well.  I listen to Jazz mainly and the souls do it right from solo piano to vocals to Big Band. I particularly like that they don't over emphasize the High End...their presentation seems to be well balanced to me.  In addition they do Bass very well, better even than the HR-1s in my main system.  You can read about their unconventional structure internally to achieve it.

In the thread LR started talking about his blue Zu's, I warned him about the long break in, which is much longer than other speakers, in my opinion.  I've copied one of my posts below rather than go through it again.

To reiterate, the Souls do very well with Jazz, Classical as well as Rock/Blues.  I only have experience with the Souls, they have upgraded internal wiring and the tweeter is integrated with the 10 inch driver so they are a bit different than LR's Zus but both should sound similar.  If you have the chance to listen to well broken in Zu speakers with your Music, I think you'll be very pleased with what you hear.  Mark.

21       AUDIO FORUMS / General Discussion and Support / Re: BAM! Blue Beauties are on the way!
on: 01/14/15 at 13:22:55
Started by Lonely Raven | Post by mark58
I've been reading the various impressions of the Blue Zu's.  I've written before in this forum about how I hated my Zu Soul's at first and beat the crap out of them with Led Zep at near concert levels....probably at least 250 to 300 hours, before they started behaving like audiophile speakers.  Mind you Zu claims they break in the drivers for 600 hours before putting them in the cabinets.  The Blue Zu's should be very similar to mine except you have a separate tweeter vs my whizzer...which makes the Blues less efficient with a higher Impedance. But the sound quality should be very similar.

Did you get a feel for how much the prior owner had used the Blues and at what volumes...they may not have been broken in much.  These Zu's really do have a Mr. Hyde and then a Dr. Jekyll personality after break in.  Unless I'd lived through it myself, I'd have a hard time believing the difference.

I, like Lon, don't like my Music playback to be too hot.  I want lots of detail but I don't want the cymbals pounding holes in my brain.  I'm listening to some studio Monk Quartet from 1964 as I type...everything is just right.  My system is relatively simple.  The 2 WPC Zen Signature Monoblocks with a Jolida 100 CD player with a pair of Sylvania Black Plate 12AX7's.  The Signatures have a pair of Amperex 7308's, the stock Russian output tubes, 50's RCA 5U4G coke bottle Rectifiers and 50's RCA OA3's.  Interconnects are the Decware Silver Reference and the power cords are nothing special.  Speaker Cables are Zu Libtec.  Oh, I also use a Running Springs Audio Haley Power Conditioner.

In regards to floor gap,  I use the spikes they sent at almost the highest you can get in the front with the back two about half of max so the souls tilt up a bit with plenty of space underneath.  They sit on carpet and provide plenty of Bass.

So when I hear or read folks who have owned Zu Speakers and describe what I first heard but got rid of them...I think to myself, if only they had been more patient with these temperamental beasts. They just needed to be broken like a young spirited horse.  Mark.

As the owner of a Mini Torii and a SE84, I can certainly attest to the magic of that Zen amp.  It has a transparency and an ability to flow with the music that the Mini Torii just doesn't quite get.  There's something quite special about that little amp and I marvel at it to this day.

One last comparison.  I believe Rachael trumps Zen in soundstage.  Zen trumps Torii and Torii and ZMA are tied.  These are small differences but my opinion, none the less.

I re-read my response and somebody might wonder why I even have a Torii MKIII.

To me, the Torii is the best all rounder Decware amp.  It does nearly everything very well.

It's the most flexible amp in the lineup.  You can make it sound pretty much any way you like.  Plus it's got the power for a wide variety of speakers.

And for what they are going for these days, it was another no brainer for me.  If you trace my purchase history, you'll see I am fairly cautious and like no brainers.

I keep Rachael for when I want Zen magic.  I do lust after the ultra zen magic of the Zen, especially after hearing it at Rob's.  But I also lust after the bodacious curves of the ZMA.  A married man can look, can't he?

Quote:


Funny, I wondered that after reading your relative comparisons to other Decware amps.  I'm glad you clarified.

I also understand from maddog07 that the current drive of the Torii Mk III is a perfect match for full range, single-driver speakers.  I don't believe the Mk IV delivers the same level of magic in this regard.