Great news!

By the way, a shout out to tlarwa. We figured you couldn't make a weeknight but shoot me a note if you want to drive down.  

Also, I just counted 123 emails trying to arrange a date and agenda for this meeting.  I'd like to give a shout out to Palomino and Raven for their dedication to the betterment of CDApS.

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Yeah, that's it...quantify just how unhealthy our addiction is....LOL

Sounds like a great evening planned...would like to hear how the "mobile gypsy-room treatment-medicine show"  goes. I am slowly treating/ working my room. Definitely has helped, but I know more is needed.

You guys already know how I feel about diffusers and what they do. I'll let the new guy chime in and describe what we did tonight.

It was a very enjoyable, and educational evening. Progrob has a completely different sound than what I'm used to - it  was great hearing a system that so effortlessly imaged and had air in the music. Live recordings were seriously amazing.

I'll leave the rest to Palo and Rob - they are probably better at describing thing then I am anyways.

Thanks Raven and Palomino for setting the stage.  I had a great time, and it was awe inspiring to watch this duo play various tracks and diagnose a system so quickly.  I learned a lot tonight, but with answers come even more questions.

The first thing that was confirmed for me is that I'm too close to my system to know what it is and isn't good at.  For that you need perspective.  And when you don't know other audiophiles or hear other systems you are essentially working with a sample size of 1.  That means no perspective.  Sure I can scour forums and blogs and read all the audiophile words that describe what we hear, but without real interaction and feedback it is next to useless.  These two moved me years down the road of what I might have accomplished on my own in just over 2 hours.

A bit of background: over the last 3 or so years, I've spent thousands of hours and dollars researching and selecting components for my system.  I've obsessed over details, value, reviews, and synergy, swapping equipment, and gotten everything "just so".  You can see what remains in my signature.  So, I think it's perfect right?  After tonight, there are things I can rest easy on, and others that will keep me up late.  Here my thoughts:

1) There is more to your amplifier/speaker relationship than how loud the amp can play your speakers.  Unfortunately we couldn't confirm this tonight, but Raven and Palomino brought up the possibility that perhaps my amp/speaker combo wasn't a solid match.  A fair assessment.  Relative to their experience, dynamics are recessed in my system.  In terms of SPL, my 2.3 watts are enough to drive my 97db/w/m Hawthorne Trios.  It plays plenty loud for me (not for Palomino and certainly not for Raven), but there seems to be more to it.  Yes, 2.3 watts will drive my speakers to 100 db.  However, how does it punch below that level?  Do the extra power reserves, though untapped, translate to a more dynamic sound?  I always thought that it was the circuit that contributed to dynamics, and so long as your power ratings were sufficient you'd be ok.  After all, what do watts you don't use get you?  "Grip"?  I've read all about it before, but reading Steve's page on which Decware amp to select doesn't seem to mention anything but volume considerations.  While we generated no first hand evidence that the ZMA or Torii will kick up dynamics vs. my CKCS, we'll find out soon enough at a future CDApS meeting.

2) I need to learn what my OB's can and can't do.  This becomes important because it determines precisely my upgrade path.  Here's what I learned tonight, starting with the negatives: they can exhibit sibilance, and they are quite "laid back" and are short in presence factor (midrange).  I actually never, ever noticed the sibilance before.  Once Raven pointed it out, I kept hearing it.  The positives: I have bass!  And, they have exceptional air and staging capabilities.  No surprises for me there but it was nice to hear from others.  There are other things to improve such as soundstage width and improving my speakers' "disappearing act", but I'm not confident enough to determine whether this is a drawback of my speakers or simply a matter of positioning and the room.  

3) My source components are fine.  I've been obsessed with getting the Schiit Yggdrasil, which is Schiit's upcoming Statement DAC.  I already started saving for it and would have been my next purchase if not for CDApS.  However, Palomino and Raven both thought detail was sufficient and in fact heard some things on recordings that they'd never heard before.  Here's my new take - a DAC upgrade, while a move in a positive direction, addresses nothing that my system cannot already do well.  Next.  

4) All Hail to the God of Diffusion.  Do I really need to say it?  Wow.  Diffusers at the 2nd reflection points turned a mildly impressed audience into a captive one.  I don't want to overstate things, but there was a pronounced increase in interest when those things went in.  Whether they styrofoam or wood, dividends were paid in midrange, sibilance control, musical interest and increased air and width of soundstage.  With a couple pairs of appropriate diffusers, would I care anymore what my speakers aren't good at?  I certainly wouldn't be over the near term.  The key takeaway tonight is that diffusers need to be my first priority.  I'm still shaking my head.

Thanks again for the great evening, gents.  Looking forward to the next one!!

You guys really nailed it.  Nothing more to say except I agree.

I listened a little last night sans Raven's mobile diffuser lab.  He took them back unfortunately.  Still good, but not the same.  I think I need the combination to really help me hear "deep into the mix" as they say.

I didn't feel I was on my game last night, but Raven more than made up for it.  He was indeed the ringmaster.  "Stop"  "Siblance" "Flat" "OK, all diffusers out" "Same positions!"  It was like Touretts audio speak.

One other impression I'll add was I liked JRiver.  Nice solid interface and loved the little fade out when you stop a song.  If only it weren't winders based.  Rob said they had a Mac version.  I'd need to see how I'd control it from my phone.

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Geeze, I hope I didn't sound like the Sound Nazi! LOL I'm glad I was on last night, as tired and stressed as I have been with work, I was afraid I'd be an exhausted lump. But hey, when I have an idea of what needs to be done, let's get it done! I'm glad it provided us with clear results that we all agreed on - no doubt about how we felt.

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I still have some PCs that are close to ready to go. I'm going to be selling them in the Classifieds, Craigslist, and eBay (if I have to use eBay) to help fund future projects. I'm happy to loan you one so you can see how the PC setup I use sounds on your gear.


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That's pretty much what I was telling Rob last night. He's a really low level listener - I just think there is a synergy mismatch between his speakers and his wonderful little Zen amp. I kept saying I could hear the Decware in the setup, but there was a bit of a disconnect in the mids. I wish my ZMA wasn't in the shop, dropping that in would tell us if his speakers are holding him back, or if he just needs more horsepower. Late last night I listened to that Yellow Brick Road track several times, and I missed the air and big sound Rob has, but my dynamics and speed, even with a 17 year old 2 watt amp crushed his giant speakers. We'll diagnose his setup better on another visit, where I can bring the ZMA over, and Palomino can bring over his Monoliths. We'll see what combination works best in his room - I'd like to see him keep his giant speakers if they suit his listening style. But maybe he'll like a more traditional high efficiency two way - especially once we introduce some diffusers of his own in the room.


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I'll do better then that - I'll design them for you. You'll just need to figure out how to build them. I'm going to start another thread in the Room Treatment section of the Decware forum later this morning. I'll have some questions for you - and we'can use it as our build log.

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Oh, no no no! Don't feel remorse. It's only gear! And think of how involved the three of us were getting into that one track last night? Seriously, that was great music!

It's all about compromises and what works for YOU. I don't want to seem like I'm pushing the efficient two way thing on you - You've got something special in your room, but you also have to work with it's drawbacks. Like I said last night, if you did switch back to box speakers, I think you'd be on an uphill battle from where you are now. You'd still have issues, just different issues, and IMHO, different sound.

So we'll drop the ZMA in your setup and see if we can wake those big speakers up with more grip, but similar volume levels. And we'll also swap your speakers for something that Palo and I have in stock (and don't mind transporting - my Blue Zu are *not* part of the mobile lab!), but with your amp, and see what works for *you*. That will give you an idea of what directions you want to go.

All of that is also assuming we're using diffusers in your room. I have no problems bringing the mobile diffuser lab over for this future amp/speaker test to help you figure out your upgrade path.

This is exciting for me. Since I'm stuck with my crappy L-shaped room, I need to live vicariously through you guys with your dedicated rooms!

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IMHO, it won't do a terrible bunch for absorption, because the waves really need to go through the absorber for a more broadband effect. But, it should help damp high frequency resonance inherent in the foam panel.

At least that's my speculation - I've still not received any measurements and specs from PI Audio. I'd love for them to measure the diffusers flat on a wall, and damped with a panel on the wall, as well as damped with a panel a few inches off the wall. Instead, we're going to have to muck around with this ourselves and see what we can figure out.

I'm working on damping my panels a bit this weekend. I'm hoping it removes the high-frequency hash I'm getting off these panels.

Again, good bang for the buck, great diffusion. But there is definitely something going on with the high end that I'm not sure I like. But for the money, I think everyone should have a couple of these thrown into their room! Seriously, 32 square feet of diffusion for $160 + $72 shipping is pretty amazing!

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Sorry Raven, I had a moment of weakness.  No worries, carry on!

It`s all given me food for thought as well LR. Been doing a little digging. Is this about the blueprint for the diffusers ? 1 1/2" sq white wood. http://www.pmerecords.com/Diffusor.cfm
Or is your system different ? Maybe the wrong thread. I`ll check in to your `room treatment` thread for future progress.

Fireblade said:

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I agree with you, Fireblade.  You raise a good point on the impedence curve, I may ask Mr. Hawthorne if he has one for me to examine.

Ok, I managed to get a hold of an impedance curve from Darrell Hawthorne on my speakers' mid-woofers.  These woofers roll off naturally around 50-55hz and are gradually replaced by the Radian compression driver between 800-2.5k hz.  My interpretation: The impedance starts to get too high for a 2.3w amp shy of 1000 hz, and in fact is already about 10 ohm at 650 hz or so.  I assume the curve looks a lot better for the Radian in the transition frequencies, but I'm already starting to see how this may be something to address.  

ProggRob....

I can shed a little light on the Hawthorne Audio Trio's - I own a pair.  I have the std. PSI 15" coaxial unit in mine.  IME this coaxial driver and/or the xover are just plain ole relaxed, laid-back and forgiving - and there's nothing you can do from an amplifier perspective to inject more life, presence and rez into them.  I have tried everything from flea watt SET's, to my Decware Torii, to 100 watts of Cary tube power, all the way thru arc-welding Krell class A/B up to 1000 watt Class D amps.... the speakers only get so "lively" and I just can't get them to go any further.  
But boy... do I love the open baffle bass.  My man-cave is about 2400 sq.ft. with a 9 ft. ceiling.. and these things make not only "quantity" of bass, but quality of bass as well, like I've never had in my room before.  Quite possibly the best I've heard.
Because of all my experience with other speakers, and speakers I currently own(Decware DM945's, Vintage Klipsch Chorus II's, Martin Logan Vista's, 3 sets of Audio Nirvana full rangers, Zu Omen and Tekton Lore S', to mention a few).. I got an idea how to bring life to the Trio's, and have embarked on a "modification" to my Trio's that I think will take them where I want them to be.  But I think this mod may be a bit amplifier dependent.. we'll see.  I need about 1 good Saturday uninterrupted to finish them up and fire them up and see how they sound.  If you would like to hear about what I'm doing - send me a PM.

Here's where we hosted the meeting.  Thanks Palomino for the shot.

NOTE: You'll need to scroll to see the whole thing.

Thanks Raven.  I have thought about how to do this, and the best I can come up with is to try a different interconnect, likely from Triode Wire Labs.  This may ease that tendency, not to mention cost me very little to accomplish.  If you have other ideas please just let me know.

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You wouldn't like any of my ideas. LOL

I'd probably be swapping out that tweeter - I'd buy some decent sounding but inexpensive silk dome, or the ribbon tweeter in the MG944 and seeing if I could mount it in place (in front?) of that compression driver.

I still want to bring over my MG944 and put them as direct replacement for your big OB and see what you think. I'll also have the ZMA back this week, so maybe we can have a brief, diagnostic CDApS meet?

One of us.... one of us.... gooble gobble gooble gobble!

If he got a ZMA, you know what that would mean for you, Palo....so much for the kids college fund...College is overrated anyways!

We might have to change from Chicago Decware Appreciation Society to, the Chicago Decware Elitist Mystery Amp Society.

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Dude, we gave you fair warning!

#1 I'm an enabler extraordinaire

#2 I trust my gut, and I tend to be right.


Let's see what happens on Friday. Palo and I are already planning deployment of gear - have the drop zone ready! aahhhh! LOL

Edit To Add: I'll hopefully be seeing (hearing!) what Steve has cooking in the lab! That's not good for anyone.  ;D

Raven, I'll be ready!  I have no problem getting input, the goal is to make my system the best it can be within a reasonable budget.  I hold no grudges and acknowledge that CDApS will be occasionally rife with temptations and peer pressure of both intentional and unintentional varieties.  Seriously, no problem.  

Regarding speaker modifications though, I really do not have interest, and here's why:

a) These speakers were thoughtfully designed and are loved by a great number of people.  I researched them heavily prior to purchase and it took a lot of effort/resources to purchase them.  Granted, they are not all things to all listeners (as any transducer or loudspeaker), but I will not write them or any of their sub-components off without giving due diligence and serious effort to provide the signal, positioning and room environment they need to succeed.  No defensiveness here, just being honest.    

b) Modifying speakers, crossovers, mounting things in strange and unintended places, is not my cup of tea.  I know nothing of electrical design nor do I intend to turn my Hawthorne's into a learning experiment.  The most I would do is replace the 15" woofer with a full ranger because it's straightforward and easy to accomplish by a layman.

With that being said, I cannot wait to evaluate the impact of 20x wattage.  I will soon need to define my personal price:performance ratio because aside from room treatments, cabling, accessories, improvements will NOT come cheap from here on out.

Rob

I have no doubt that we can collectively assist each other in economical improvements.  But perhaps Palomino would be a bit more helpful LOL

Relative to item "a" in my previous post, I also acknowledge that if I ever decided to unload the Hawthorne's, the market for 5.5' tall, 27' wide speakers with 1080 square inches of radiator surface is very small.  I best keep them as long as I can!

Rob

I share your pain ProggRob... and the realization that no one speaker is the perfect speaker for all rooms, all music, all personal preferences, etc.  I chased the "elusive ONE" for decades.  Finally concluding, it does not exist!  And therefore I now have 6 different main pairs of speakers that rotate in and out of the dedicated man-cave system depending on my mood and what music I'm into "at the time".  As I've shared with you before, I have some Hawthorne Trio's.  No plan to part with them, love what they do.  Also don't plan to part with my "stats" or any of my monitors.  I may part with the vintage Klipsch's... they don't do anything differently or better than some of my others, so no need to keep more than one sample of any particular "flavor"....  But I do have ideas developing on paper for two new DIY models to experiment with - Thanks to RandyinCaintuck.... !

So glad your ZMA is back! I too love the sound of my little Zen, but similarly there is a magic to my Toriii that I just can't be without any longer. Just so full and real, and breathing deeply in a way the C can't manage.

Interesting first impressions of the Zen player. It's about what I expected. . . and I'm glad that you weren't just floored in the way when you first heard the tapes or that prototype amp. Maks me thnk the DirectStream is going to hold its own in front of Steve's player, or that I would prefer its signature. Hope you get to experience a real comparison in time.