And now Steve is releasing the Tori Jr in July with an ultralinear design and the UFO transformers at 20 watts just to keep things interesting.

I'm with you on the SET monos, Fireblade.  I like having SET amps and more power is all I'd ask for.  At least, more than 6 watts.  If you're gonna do it, swing for the fences.

All I need is a cool $6000 to get them plus Steve's forthcoming pre-amp.

Rob

Palomino. The MKIV does have a treble cut, but starts at a higher frequency than the MKIII.

I can certainly can believe the Zen may be the most transparent Decware amp, but also, there are so many variables, it seems hard to isolate transparency and the rest of the beauty you all experienced the last session to the amp. As suggested, with my Toriis also, tubes alone make it a "different amp" in every aspect of the sound including speed and transparency, not to mention variables in room, cables, speakers, power, other noise killers, DACs.... I don't have anything in this system that does not change the sound.

I have had a Rachel, SE34II.2, and Taboo here, and even with serious tube adjustments (I have a large selection of each type except for power tubes for the Taboo), none really competed with my system tuned for the MKIII. I think "with my system tuned for the MKIII" is a big part of this. All the amps had a beautiful sound, and very nice transparency, but with my setup, I felt I was getting a better matrix of transparency, micro detail, and soundstage qualities from the MKIII... and with abundant power, dynamics, bass etc. The wild card for the Toriis here is bass. I need to fine-tune to get that ideal of bass speed, clarity and slam. And without that, the amp can sound notably less transparent due to the low end masking the mids and highs. Or should I say revealing rather than transparent when we are talking about things like layering. No doubt SE is beautiful, but a well tuned Torii is beautiful too and very revealing here.

I think the baseline of Steve's technique and voicing is so good we can transform any of these amps with tubes and tuning. But I do have a lot of tubes, and as Pal said, the Toriis have a lot of adjustability.

In the context of the Zen being notably transparent and revealing, the system you all heard first at Progg's, by reports, was rife with issues, considering amps, speakers and diffusion as popular potential fixes...Then with very little change in reflection/wave patterns, and source power, the next session it became a depressant for others it was so beautiful. This indicates the difficulty of isolating a speaker, source, amp or anything else... The massive synergy shift experienced after Progg's seemingly minor adjustments clearly include the Zen, but it was the same amp both sessions.

I am auditioning a used pair of Synergistic Research Element spk cables made with four wires of super pure copper, air dielectric, and an active shield (it Plugs in)... conceptually very revealing and musical cables. There are three little electronic "tuning bullets" that change the active shield somehow...the shield! Each has an audible presentation difference, from most revealing and extended, to more notably warm with less extension and softer/smoother highs. In-between is a rich and revealing, relatively neutral vibe, but notably rich...colored to me (though I like it). None are as "transparent" as the cables I had been using. Even the most revealing of the "bullets" in these warm cables make my amp sound less "transparent," though I may like them.

Will,

I absolutely agree with you.  The "magic" can be attained with any amp in the lineup, but one must start with the amp they can afford and provides most of their wishlist, sonically speaking.  Referring back to post No. 98 I speak about building around the amp; albeit I didn't mention power or tube considerations as you just did.  Everything matters, as they say, and building the perfect system takes a LOT of work and experimentation as I'm sure you can attest.

I would take any Decware amp given to me and build a lovely system around it.  There are no duds.  And I certainly wouldn't pigeon-hole a single amp to being this or that, given the variety of factors.  What you've seen over the last 100 posts or so are general observations that may not be universally true, but simply what we heard with the time and equipment available.

Rob

I hear what you are saying Will.  I don't want to lead anyone astray.  I do think that the small tweaks Rob did allowed that transparency I associate with the Zen to come through.

The first time I heard a Zen was on a nearfield situation in Steve's amp building room with zero treatments, a so-so DAC and an iPod dock and thought to myself, "wow that is transparency."  Same situation later at home (same equipment actually) with Rachael and it just wasn't there.

Back in post #92 I attribute the magic to the synergy in Rob's system.  He has something special going there and I got that same Zen feeling again, only with layering in the depth of soundstage.  The big (little) change was on the DAC power source.

I do stand by my comparisons of the various amps,  but my post was more of a response to Fireblade giving us the business on our seemingly vacillating amp opinions rather than a desire to provide the definitive matrix on amp feature ranking.

I may be able to get that transparency out of the Torii III.  This amp continues to surprise me.  I hope I do and munch on my words.  Best crow I will ever eat.

Funny...every time I talk with Steve about amps, he implies nutters like me may just need a nice stable of Decware amps (and in my case, some more efficient speakers for anything smaller than a Torii), each doing their own things better...like what you are talking about Palomino with the Zen, and what I hear with the MKIV.

I think that's really hard to do, Rob - I mean, your system proves that synergy has a lot of say in the final sound of the system. I really didn't care for how the ZMA sounded on your big OB speakers, but the little Zen amazed me. Plugging my ZMA into the MG944, the bass was clearly weaker, but the ZMA simply had better synergy with my speakers. I don't think it was a preference thing, I think it was a synergy thing.

I know Steve has some guidelines - and I'm betting the Zen is top of the transparency food chain (ignoring the one off OTL which is an alien from another planet). A Rachel or new Torii Jr with UFO transformers might get closer, but then you put those transformers in the CKCS and the dynamics change again.

Just too many variables.

I really thought the ZMA had better transparency till I heard your CKCS on your OB. But then, that could change with yet another speaker/room combo.

Ugh, I could go around in circles all day with everything going on in my head. I'm still floored that those small changes made such a big difference.

Dudes…..  
You guys are going to go insane trying to “classify” Decware amps.  Zen trumps Torii in blah, blah, blah; Torii trumps Rachael in blah, blah, blah, ZMA trumps Torii….. you make it sound like we’re dealing with “absolutes” here – nonsense – we are not.  You are engaging in an exercise in futility.  ANY Decware amp can “get you there” when mated with a complimentary speaker and synergistic upstream components.  You just have to get the right combination.  Trying to “rank” Decware amps ? – it’s not possible without system context.  Steve will tell you the same thing – I’m not making this up – it’s not just my opinion – it’s the designer’s modus operandi..!!!
I ask Steve when I was comparing my Torii 3 to the demo Torii 4 at Zen in 2013 if the IV was also current source – he said “yes”.  What the IV lacks, that is an absolute requirement IMO, for obtaining audio nirvana with single driver , high-efficiency, full-range crossoverless speakers, is the treble shunt control on the III.  Yes I’ve heard all the Decware amps, owned three different ones, and I would not give up my Jupitered Torii III for use when it comes to full-rangers, which after 35 years of chasing the audio holy grail, I feel I have finally arrived at what has been a permanent destination for nearly three years(which is a freaking eternity in the audio evolution of components passing thru my system).  If there’s better attainable sound out there than a Torii 3 and crossoverless full-rangers – I haven’t heard it yet – at any price.  Course we all know this is 110% subjective…   But if you get a chance to hear a properly functioning Torii III and some full-rangers, with a decent front-end, do yourself a favor and have a listen…   It might just get you off the equipment merry-go-round… if, that is indeed your goal.  I have converted two of my local audio buds to Torii’s and high-sensitivity speaks.  One has a Torii 3/Decware HDT system now and the other guy already had Avantgarde Duo’s that he was driving w/BAT mono’s – which he sold them after hearing my Torii drive them and then got himself a Torii III.  I’m just saying….. to each his own, but expose yourself to as much as possible and then “pick” your sound and drive toward it… if you don’t have a chosen “destination”, you can never get “there”.  
Now go sit down in your easy chair with your favorite beverage, put on your favorite tunes, relax, unwind and stop stressing about audio component "absolutes"... they don't exist!!!  

+1  You are a wise man Maddog, entirely too much time spent obsessing about gear and not enough relaxing with the Music.  This is the only point of all this, after all.

I do wish Steve would have left the Bass and Treble controls as is on the Torii  MK IV.  I've even been very close to buying MK IIIs in the past but someone saves me by eventually buying them.  Mark.

I, Palomino do hereby retrack my statements comparing Decware
amps.

I'm going to need a sponsor.  Can't be Raven!

I'm so misunderstood!  Seriously, I think good points were made in the ensuing posts, but I again want to emphasize that my response started out as a somewhat tongue in check, rock paper scissors response to that trouble making, higher wattage SET seeker, Fireblade.  It was not meant as any kind of absolute, definitive amp selection guide.

Anyway, back to the treble shunt.  After messing with this for a couple of months, I think I know why Steve "limited" it.  I don't think anybody would use 3/4 of the range on the MK III.  It's just too flat.  Also, if you are not careful on the III to get the left and right side exactly the same, it can tilt your soundstage.

And back to the original thread subject, I am gearing up for the next CDApS meeting at my place.  I even swept the carpet.

I "think" I am getting pretty good sound and tamed my bass issue a bit but want outside confirmation.

I also took a risk and ordered an array of these diffusers:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/261833417920?_trksid=p2060353.m1438.l2649&ssPageName=STR...

They are based on the work by this fellow:

http://arqen.com/sound-diffusers/

I have built a prototype of his stepped diffuser and it is by far the easiest to build of the DIY designs out there.  I only did a 2' version one night as an experiment so I can't really say how it works.

I was impressed by what Raven's styro diffusers bring to the table for so little money and having built a few diffusers (a pain), these seemed worth a try.  Plus I need to hang these on the rear wall and all these wood designs are so heavy.

He has a deal going on right now, where I got an array of 5 (stepped at various heights per the optimal design) for around $150 shipped.  It's an introductory offer as he is trying to build some cred on ebay.  

I have talked with him on the phone and he's a decent guy.  He's having trouble getting my order out due to some equipment issues but they should ship later this week.  He's going to send me a video of the CNC foam cutting machine creating a diffuser.  I am a sucker for videos showing CNC, 3D printing etc.  

Anyway, with these on the back wall, I think my room is pretty close to being what I can make out of it and will be anxious to see what you guys think.

Having heard both tlarwa's and your room Rob, the bar is high, but I hope to be up to the challenge.

We want more!
Pals on home turf this time.
Augie blaugie.
Bat `em  off the park Pal.

Psssssst, buy the Torii on eBay.  It's a steal.

I am waiting on Rob to upgrade to UFO to hear it.  I may loan him Rachael to make sure he goes through with it.

There was a III out there at $2150 with Vcaps just yesterday, I thought.   The $2850 one is overpriced.  Maybe I was looking at Agon or something.

mark58, guilty as charged.  Audio is a perfect hobby outlet for my constant need to improve things.  I got a little uppity at some of the comments with my declaration post, but I am (as my kids say) chill now.

Fireblade, I was teasing with the troublemaker comment, but you have to admit you like to put a little pepper in the pot now and again and make us think.

Lon, thanks for correcting the record on the IV treble shunt.  That's some serious treble shunting you are doing, but hey, whatever gets you to Zenzinatti.

Since I am in a proclamation mood, I will offer another one.

I, Palomino, Secretary/Treasurer of CDApS, do hereby swear to loan my blacktop, jup'd Rachael plus a set of Decware silver interconnects to Rob, a CDApS member in good standing, should he decide to go for the UFO mod on his Zen.  The term of the loan shall be the length of time his Zen is in the shop plus a reasonable number of days for the scheduled return to my massive Decware amp stable.

My only requirement in return is that he invites me back to his house to hear the most transparent amp in the Decware lineup (there I go again...can't help myself).

I think the feeling that "my system, room and tastes"  is a relevant common reference is an easy thing. It is for each of us. And that "my solutions are THE solutions," also easy, when it works for "me." This is such a cool thing the CDApS, you guys have loads references when you consider all that makes the sound, and with a common thread of Decware!

But also, I am really content in the solo journey. I enjoy lots of music every day, and enjoy the minutia of exploration toward greater beauty and refinement in this room. I like making adjustments because it makes the musical experience better, AND I really enjoy the process....no knot ties here in that.... It is carrying the deep creative process of Steve and Bob and the rest of the unrelenting explorers who made my gear, and making it my creative process. The distinction between interesting creative exploration for true beauty and obsession is there, and without it, we wouldn't have these amazing amps, DACs, speakers etc..

How far the the exploration goes for each of us is different, and we are all lucky, we can make great systems with stock gear. Then most of us mix and match to refine the system and room. I just like to go deeper and deeper as I learn, and instead of trading something that is almost amazing for me, but obviously has that potential, why not adjust/modify it if I can. Then many get into building gear to suit settings, tastes, and creative process...Luckily we can get really, really good with stock gear and stock solutions, but also with great starts, we can go as deep as we want!

In this, the complexity of music and musical instrument presentation is something that always amazes me. For retrieving the vast complexity of sound from any complex instrument is fun as could be for me, and then to have it work beautifully for the whole group on many recordings, aaahhhh, so beautiful...the music takes me away. Then a little shift here, leads to refinements that create a different expression of the beauty, a new variation of the expression in this room.

So the innate variables of how the whole expresses by adjusting with this or that tube, cable, speaker placement, noise grabber, fuse shift etc, opens new doors, and once it is all tuned, a new way of experiencing the beauty that is deeper than before. It is like a constantly unfolding puzzle that is always shifting, just like life. As we change, the puzzle changes, and as the puzzle changes we change....in this context, I see the system and room much like a living organism. The beginning is where I start today, no end in sight.

In time, these ongoing, deepening variations of beautiful musical expression  enliven and enrich my experience of the music I listen to.

This is how it is for me anyway.


PS: FireBlade...Speaking of the vast variations of how we adjust pieces of gear, systems and rooms...variations that can make the same thing different here or there....

I love my MKIII, but as Palomino points to, the MKIII can be difficult with bass. I would say these are not necessarily "his" bass issues, but something the amp can demand fixing in many rooms. Not everyone has it, but I recall your having bass issues with your system at some point so I wanted to mention it just in case. It may put you to work.

Quote:


I was on the solo journey too Will before I met up with Palomino and Raven, but I enjoy it more with company.  Of course it was and will remain fun a solo endeavor.  Not everything will be accomplished with 2nd and 3rd opinions but nonetheless preferred.

I may speak for myself here, but I don't want have the "knot tying" exaggerated.  When you reach a certain level of sonic performance, discussing, identifying and exploiting the minute differences among equipment, cables, room treatments etc. are where all the time gets spent.  It can be frustrating when results aren't yielded, or your point of view gets turned upside-down, made even worse by the amount of money that gets spent!  You'll find some of that on this forum and perhaps more so in others.  But it is this worthy pursuit that takes a good system to great, and and great system to one with musical and emotional teleportation powers.  

I love being in this position, however, it isn't for everyone.  I will lay bare my audio obsession despite others who think I'm crazy.

Hmm, we may have to have a cable-off at the next session.  The one I bought from Stone was a little long in the tooth and thus not expensive, but consider me a believer.

Fireblade wrote on 04/16/15 at 12:58:44:


I've thought about this a lot and out of the Super Zen and Torii, if I could only have one amp it would be the Torii.  Yes you may give up some SET magic, but honestly there are just a couple handfuls of speakers that 2 watts can drive.  So unless you have found your dream speakers and they happen to be really efficient and never plan on experimenting again than the Torii opens more doors.  

Of course owning both amps would be better!

Man I love how this thread is growing - we needed more discussions like this at Decware.

Re: ProggRob UFO - I'm so glad Palomino offered up his (better!) Rachel for Rob to borrow in order to help prompt him to send in his amp. I was going to suggest that, but I've been too much the instigator as of late. Hell, I'll even drive the amp down to Steve for Rob at this point.  :)

Re: Cables - I'm a skeptic of digital cables making *that* much of a difference. But I'm also spoiled by a DAC that's pretty cable agnostic. Just like my ZMA is very power agnostic. I guess I made things easy for myself - as long as whatever cable isn't holding the system back, it sounds good. So I really don't see much of a lift when I make changes.

Re: next CDaPs - I'm really looking forward to listening to Pal's setup. I really believe he's got a talent for experimenting and adjusting. I come in to spot issues or verify a fix, and he just keeps working away at it till the next visit. Add on these new diffusers and I'm really excited to check out the room!

I think there was more I wanted to comment on...but I've lost track. I'm going to queue up some tracks and try out some new input tubes on the ZMA.

I have learned the enabling game from a master enabler.  I only seek to pay homage to my Sensei.

I do have an ulterior motive though and that is to hear my Rachael in Rob's system.  Both of you have me interested in exploring this balanced input thing as well.  

A cable comparo would be easy to do at the next meeting.  Your DAC may be somewhat less cable affected, but mine definitely is not.  Either my old cable was pretty basic or this cable is pretty good.  Probably a combo.  After listening for a couple of days, I am thinking about dialing back the amp.  The dynamics jump out and whack you upside the head.  

Luckily I have this ol' Torii and can futz with it pretty easy.  I flipped the bias switch but don't know what I think about how it sounds yet.  I am thinking about going back to some more laid back rectifiers I have.  Then there are the comments about getting away from silver in my interconnects.  The thing is its not bright, its just dynamic, intense and detailed across the frequency range.

It may sound like I never listen to music.  Problem is I spend too much time listening to music.  But I also don't sleep 8 hours a night and I like to stay busy.

As Eric and Rob know, I am now messing around with a design that makes building a QRD7 easier and cheaper.   The jury is still out on whether this formula will really be a QRD7 for the masses as I had hoped.  But here is the tease...you can do it with a trip to Menards, $57 and a table saw.

Also, my Styrofoam diffusers should be here Saturday or Monday.  I will be hanging them on my back wall.  If they help my room sound like Eric's styro's did, my brain is going to explode with the combo of good diffusion and the way my system sounds right now.

Oh, and the other thing I have been trying is varying the gain out of the Mac Mini and the volume on the Torii.  I haven't had the time to work with this much, so if anyone can weigh in on how they do this to get the right dynamic balance, I am all ears.

And yes, I know I will no longer  be outputting bit perfect using gain on the mini.  So far, I am not too hung up on the bit perfect thing.

The issue before was due to monkeying with Audirvana setting.  Once I went back to the defaults, everything snapped back into place.

Acetone, no CDApS meeting this weekend.  My other thread alludes to a friend just getting into high end.  Raven and Palomino don't know him yet, but I'm grooming a future member.  He's just not ready for our level of intensity, LOL.

Just an update on my diffuser experimentation.   As I mentioned earlier, I purchased these diffusers at the promotional price:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/261833417920?_trksid=p2060353.m1438.l2649&ssPageName=STR...

They are based on the work by Tim Perry:

http://arqen.com/sound-diffusers/

I received them yesterday.  They were packaged in a pretty cool way and arrived unscathed.  These are made from a single block of high density polystyrene using a CNC hot wire cutter.  After they are cut, they are then primed and returned back to the block they were cut out of for shipping.  Pretty clever.



I purchased an array of 5 for the back wall of my room.  These stepped fractals benefit from and array of 3, 5, 7 etc.   Currently they rest on a desk/table in the rear of my room.  I will hang them once I paint them.  They come with screws and wire to hang each one.



I have not spent a lot of time with these, but I can say they exceed the dispersion capabilities of the 3 QRD diffusors I previously had on the rear wall.  Soundstage is wider and walls disappear a little better.  They also diffuse the high frequencies better allowing better separation and more detail to come through.

The range on these is supposed to be from around 500Hz to 3Khz+.

I thought I also sensed a touch better bass definition, but didn’t think that could happen given the range.  Then I received a note from the manufacturer stating the following:

Also I am doing some research on them and since the panels are made of a homogeneous, light, substance they have clear resonances if they are made to vibrate. This frequency varies on the thickness of the panel but the test panel I have had a clear resonant frequency of 65Hz (plus smaller ones at 38Hz and 210Hz. This is kind of cool because this means that the diffusers, especially when hanging on the wall, will absorb some low frequency by converting the wave energy into heat (vibrations in the actual panel). I am not sure if the effect will be noticeable but low end modes are also a big problem in small rooms so it can't hurt.

I tried my newly made “budget” QRD7s (to be discussed in another thread), in the front of the room to compliment these and did not like the result. I did like the 7’s in the back of the room (part of the 3 QRD I mention above).

At the next CDApS meeting, we’ll experiment with placement of my growing diffuser collection and report back.

I think these are definitely worth a look.  Especially if you have room for an array.  There have been three people provide feedback so far.  The deal is extended to the first 5 to provide feedback.