Hi Garnold

I too had paralysis by analysis.  But I learned just to sit back and enjoy the music.  Though, I will give you my 2cents.

I originally had the SE34I.33 paired with ZU Omen Def's. The sound definitely had more mid's than bass.  I felt that the sound was extremely crisp and clear, like using headphones, but the bass was missing a bit.  The loudness will only reach a certain level, so you do have to realize that, too.  My room is very similar to yours.  So I opted for the MK3 and I have not looked back and I have kept the Zu Omen Def's.  The Tekton's were just too big for my room and I just felt more comfortable with Zu's product.

Now that I have had the components for some time and they have been broken in, so to speak, the sound is great.  Though, I will let you know that some recordings just don't sound good.  Especially rock from 80's and 90's, but not all.

Personally I don't think that you can go wrong selecting MK3 and Zu Omen Def's.  Just remember that you need to let everything settle in a bit and just enjoy!!!
 
If you have any more Q's just let me know.

Good Luck!

Thanks, everyone, for the warm welcome!

beowulf:
Yes, the "house sound" is really what gives me pause on deciding between Zu and Tekton.  They each seem to have their own unique "signature" and people tend to either love it or hate it.  I'm hoping to snag one or two people in my area with these speakers that will give me a listen.  (I should go post more about that in Zu's forums, I suppose).

I'm impatient to get these audio systems rollin', but Im willing to be patient if it means a better outcome.  I'm trying to remain neutral and open to just the sound, not the wait time.

"Rave" volume levels aren't what I'm after, definitely.  I could save myself the headache and get a system that does those for 1/5 the price of the Zu's alone!  

Thanks for the advice!

will:
I definitely feel like a kid in a candy store.  Problem is, I've never tasted any of the candies, so I can't decide.  :)

The Mk3 certainly looks like a beautiful beast, but right now I think $3k is a bit rich for my blood.  I may start with the SE34I and see how that works for me -- if it's on the quiet side, a Mk3 gets put on order and the SE34I will move into the media room.  Hmm, a plan for me to consider.

The Sonos is a neat little stream-everything device, like a Roku for audio -- it can stream Rdio, Songza, Soma.fm, music from a server, and others.  I have a medium-sized collection of mp3s/oggs that I'm working on replacing with flacs.  The oggs tend to be higher quality (~192kbps or higher) than the mp3s.

I believe the speakers I'm considering have a trial period, so I should be covered there.  I was already planning to make a call to Steve be the final part of my research -- he sounds like a very nice and helpful guy, I just want to make sure I know enough to ask knowledgeable questions.  :)

Thanks for all the advice on speaker sound.  I'm curious what you mean by saying some find the Mk3 too "clean"?  I have my own idea of what a "clean" sound is, but what's yours?  (Side note, I always find it amusing/frustrating that most of our words for describing audio are borrowed from the tactile senses..."mushy", "soft", "smooth", etc.)

RJR:
Aha, first-hand experience with a combo I'm considering!  Did the Mk3s fill in the bass better than the SE34I, or were they just able to give you more volume overall?  That's a bummer about the 80s and 90s music...I don't listen to much of it, but that's my high school-years music, nostalgic.  :)

It looks like you've helped other newbies out in other postings, I think I'm going to stalk you for a bit.  :D

One question I do have, though.  As beowulf mentioned, the Zus have a certain "house sound".  I haven't run across any good descriptions of what that is, exactly, especially as compared to more traditional loudspeaker or HTIB setups.  Do you think you could help educate me on what that sound is?

Thanks again, everyone!  I feel much better about not going wrong after hearing from you.  Of course, now you all have me wondering about SE34I vs Mk3...  ;)  Now here's to hoping a Tekton owner wanders by..

garnold -
To make your choice easier I can speak as the owner of a pair of Rachaels bridged for mono`s, through the CSP2+, so the basic config.
Cost less than the Mk3 and only two* sets of tubes to use as a pallette.
Ample bass and powerfull. I dont know the voltage outputs of your sources but if they are higher than my cartridge, and similar to my Nak cassette, then very powerfull sound. I have some room treatment and find it is all about what is on the album and how it is recorded. Some recordings are planted between speakers and most, when the engineer uses all his tools, can be sumptuous. How Zappa found time to do what he did and record his albums equisitly is a testament. The soundstage is wide and getting wider as the Decware amps mature. I knew my speakers could produce music out side of their edges with quality amps and thats whats happening. ( I have them wide apart to start and the centre is very, very solid ) So there you are SET set up that can sound epic.
But... and here is your finger tapping quandry I have no doubt that the Mk3 will sound brill, as will all the Decware range. I doubt I`ll ever hear the MK3 but I love reading about it.
* plus rectifier

Wow, would I like to hear two Rachels and the CSP2 Marky!

My experience of entering truly real sounding gear was similar to RJRs. I had no access to to relatively low cost world class stuff. Then as we have all seen, in looking around the web, the very small company winners rise to the top, and they are scattered around the country. Decware, Turning Point, Zu, Tekton, DbAudiolabs, Dodd, Pi and many more.…the brave new world of internet access to these very intelligent music freaks with the built in necessity for trial periods since most can't easily audition the stuff. And forum discussions and reviews help us refine choices, but still it always comes down to our tastes and our system/room synergy or lack of it…making trial periods a must for me.

As I progressively explored system/room tuning toward really good synergy, one thing kept coming up...at this level of resolution, each part effects all the other parts. Below are the basic reasons that caused me to me look at this.

1) This gear can literally take us to a world class sense of realism in our own rooms with truly engrossing and life enhancing listening experiences. But unless we are very, very lucky with our choices and room, this will not happen without some effort, and without covering important basics necessary for this level of sound. My explorations have proven that with this quality gear, our sound potential can often be much greater than we imagine possible. It can be truly off the charts.

2) A big factor is this: Decware (and other brilliant gear), with its very simple and very well implemented signal paths can convey musical transparency and realistic harmonic information close to the way nature conveys sounds. In other words, like players in the room. The well implemented tube magic thing. At the same time, minimal design with quality parts tuned together to this end excludes filters to make the gear "forgiving," that is beyond the designers attempts to balance transparency and neutrality with musicality as the signature is developed.

This brings about the sort of issues inherent to great gear. When it is REALLY good, it is revealing…something that can make it suck or awe inspiring, and everywhere in between depending on the many things that make up a system/room and how we tune it all together.

I came to realizing this from challenging circumstances, but am glad it happened this way because I have learned a lot about tuning it all to take me where I want it to...to where amazement at the beauty is a daily experience.

Had I just been coming into this, and gotten my Torii MkIII (pre bass knobs) for my 944s, and not known I could ask Steve and Bob for help and  solutions within the context of my system/room…the Torii would have gone back. It brought out so much low and mid bass in my room that it was too dark sounding for me, and gave me cotton ear. On the other hand, you will find reports of Torii being too bright and a little sterile (and being returned or sold). And there are those who love it, but wish there was a bit more bass. Then there are the lucky ones (or those who have already sorted out their system/rooms) where the Torii just fits right in without much effort. This is the point…could this wildly varied experience be the Torii???

But once we get a relative balance in the room and good synergy, the fine details of sound that may have once been masked or exaggerated are all there, in which case adjustably and flexibility can be really helpful. Amp adjustments, tubes, cables, feet, power, speaker placement, etc can all become powerful tools toward the end of refinement of the engaging music in the home potential. This is not to say that this is necessary, but it is a possibility.

Everything in my system matters at this level of resolution, and how I deal with it can enhance or detract from the musical experience. The best amp and speaker combo with a weak source is a system hobbled by the source. Or a great source playing suboptimal files from a suboptimal server setup can't possibly make a good amp sound at its best. Put a bad IC between a great source and a great amp, and the IC can determine system limits. Even with everything reasonably high quality and synergistic, if there is a lot of vibration, the sound will be hobbled by how vibration effects sensitive, simple, and revealing gear like Decware tube amps. Or with all bases covered with good sounding and resolving parts, and set up impeccably in a room that has serious issues, the sound result can be far from great.

3) Sooooo…Though we can work our way through reviews and all of our various explanations from our various experiences, we can't really know until we try it at home. All of our system/rooms are different, and at the Decware level of musical transparency, even exactly the same gear set up in different rooms will sound different. And this is why I think reading between the lines of all of our attempts to help one another is important. It will not be the same for each of us, and what we interpret as a culprit may be accurate within a static context, but may not be within the highly adjustable big picture.

Pointing to variability and flexibility to me offers hope for those of us that are not as lucky as we had hoped with how our first choices fit what we already have. Or in my case, how great gear pointed out inherent problems in my system/room. But hopefully this makes diving in easier because these are complex but readable and adjustable systems where nothing is cast in stone…. sometimes just finding the right speaker location can solve lots of issues.

Finally, all this is a way of agreeing with RJR. After playing the research out a bit, we just have to start diving in and go from there. A lot of fun this hobby!!! And so rewarding when we can have the music blow our minds in our own rooms!

Wow!  You guys have simultaneously given me a lot to think about AND made it easier to just jump in feet first.  ;D Thanks!

will:
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I've been reading that thread off an on for a few days, now.  It's fascinating how everyone's perception of different tubes is unique.  It's like you said in a couple of your replies to me, it depends on so much else in the system -- source, pre, ICs, speakers, room, treatments, etc -- that it's nearly impossible to say that any one approach is "right" or "wrong" (well, within reason).

Quote:

Right now I'm leaning towards maybe getting some Omen Dirty Weekends (60-day return with free shipping, one-year 100% trade-in on any Zu product, pretty low-risk) and a Rachael as my speaker/amp combo for testing the waters.  The only real risk there is if I hate the Zu sound, but I think the DW is such a low risk that it's worth taking.  More on other decisions below...

marky:
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Yeah, thanks, buddy!  ::)  Seriously, I agree with everyone else in envying your system.  I really wish I had the knowledge, time, and money to explore different amp and speaker setups to see what the tradeoffs are.  Toying with the idea of getting a MiniWatt or a Yaqin just to give myself more than a single point of reference.  Definitely NOT in place of a Decware amp, just a comparison.

RJR:
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I'd forgotten that Tekton gives you 30 days.  When it comes time to actually order something, I plan on timing it all so that the amp and speakers show up as close to each other as possible so I can maximize my "return window".

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This (and Will's similar Quote:
) is probably one of my biggest take-aways from asking, here.  "Just do it".  I'll never have the "perfect" system, so trying to get it on my first purchase is just ludicrous.  Hard for me to admit that...I'm an engineer, and we're perfectionists at heart.  :)

Dom:
Quote:

Interesting that you mention Schiit.  A couple weeks ago, as a way of getting my tube ya-ya's out, I ordered a Schiit Modi, a Bravo V2, and a Genalex Gold Lion 12AU7 as a headphone amp for work.  Wow, the Modi really surprised me!  I was a bit skeptical that an outboard DAC could make as much of a difference as it does.  So color me a Schiit believer...I'll definitely give some serious consideration to a Bifrost.

Also, as a side note, the Bravo V2 is a fun little amp.  Seriously susceptible to wifi interference, though -- I have to keep it at least two feet from my laptop to avoid a crackling right channel.  Not the best amp, I'm sure, but a good toe-in-the-water for tube noobs.

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Cool...we can compare maps as we explore the tube amp wilderness.

beowulf:
I like the idea of having several special-purpose (ish) components instead of one big amp and two big speakers.  Gives me the flexibility to swap newer/better/different components in and out and experiment.  I know that if I do that, though, I'll become a total addict.  Hmm...  ;)

DBC:
Quote:

Aaauuugh!  More choices!  No, seriously, I appreciate the input.  That sounds like another good idea that I think would be nicely compatible with what beowulf was recommending to me.

A question for everyone concerning the MDM (I'm not having any luck tracking down the "adding body and weight" thread).  It looks like the audio signal goes through the MDM -- is there any degradation to what gets sent to the loudspeakers because of this?  I know I'm counting my chickens before they hatch, worrying about that at this point, but it's one of those things that would bother me not knowing.

Thanks again, everyone.  You've been exceedingly kind with sharing your knowledge and experience!  I'll try to be more punctual and shorter in my replies in future...  ::)

What I get from this thread is that whatever choices you make, you will very likely really love what you get once you get it sorted out! Fun times ahead!

Here is the Weight and Body thread:
https://www.decware.com/cgi-bin/yabb22/YaBB.pl?num=1360355711

There is definately a thing with running through a crossover, and in having longer cable runs, but it can be done well, and people do it all the time...Another area of care. Starting with really transparent and well implemented gear seems to be the first step, and you are looking at all good stuff.

As you will see in the thread, if memory serves, DBC has chosen to run two sets of cables from his select....one to the Mid-Bass units, and and one to his speakers...So they are overlaid so to speak...and he loves the sound. I think it is a really nice thread and worth reading through.

As to the Zen versus Rachael, again options abound if you want more volume of the Zen or to nudge the sound one way or another (or both)....you could use a Zstage, or CSP2+ to add volume, weight, more tube magic, to warm or clean up the sound, and more... As Tube pres, they are voiced in Steve's chosen way, but they are not cast in stone. With tubes and cables you can make them more or less in all the tonal ranges.

Alternately, if you started with one Zen, and thought you needed more umph, (or additionally to the CSP2+ or Zstage) you could get the purist SE sound from the Zen by adding another Zen bridged to mono...more than doubling the power of a single Zen...

I am not advocating this per say, but it sounds like a good option that could be quite flexible as a possibility...the single Zen, the MID-BASS unit and the Zus.....Or you could just start with the Zen and Zus..

But again, it really does seem you could have a really engaging set up wherever you go with this range of gear you are looking at. I loved my pre-Rachael SE34...people love the Zen, the Taboo...the Torii...we are lucky.

PS: never underestimate the front end. It is where it all starts and anything lost there is never regained!!! DACS and computer/servers and how they are implimented make or break a system or system synergy, and it is bigtime important!

will:
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Oh, I'm sure it's going to be a blast playing with all the new toys when the time comes!  I just have to move into the new place and double check my money, first... *taps foot*

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Ah, ok.  I understand, now.  Thanks!  I'm plowing through that thread right now.

Thanks for all the info and advice and opinion on the various amps on offer from Decware.  I think I'll need to call Steve sometime soon and talk with him about what I listen to and what I'm looking for and see what he thinks.  It's hard to resist ordering two different amps just to play around...

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Yes.  I've been building up the software I'll be running on the server side (for both music and movies), and am looking at running all the digital content from a Sonos music streamer.  I'm trying to make a smart DAC choice at the beginning -- I think the difference between a $300 and a $3000 DAC will be less apparent to me at this point in my audiophile career than, say, the same difference in the amp or speakers.  Spending my initial money where I get the most obvious quality for the dollar, so to speak.  ;)

See, look at me showing my ignorance...Jupiter vs beeswax.  Duh, same thing!

I'm getting back from a vacation and beginning moving in mid-May, so I think I'll be hitting up Steve and Sean about how I should go about planning my first setup, as well as looking at the suggestions here and coming up with some plans.

I may also see if I can find a reason for work to send me to Newport for T.H.E. Show -- Zu isn't listed as an exhibitor, but Zu's site says they'll be there.  Maybe I can drop by the Zu room, hmmm...  :)